MTSS: Ensuring Structured Literacy Across All Tiers and the Importance of Oral Language

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Welcome to Edview 360.
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What happens, if what I've been after, and if you go back and think about my journey through this career, it has been about professional development.
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It has been about teaching.
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I am in my element when I teach.
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So, as I worked with Luisa and all my colleagues, it wasn't about presenting information as today.
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It's not about presenting information, it's about teaching, right?
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It's about teaching.
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And I will always state the importance of a knowledge base that we possess as educators.
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That is the silver bullet.
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That is the magic formula.
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We keep on saying there is no silver bullet.
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There's no magic.
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Yes, there is.
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It is the teacher.
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It is the teacher.
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You just heard from renowned literacy expert Dr.
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Antonio Fierro.
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Dr.
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Fierro is our podcast guest today on Edview360.
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Hello, this is Pam Austin.
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Welcome back to the Edview360 podcast series.
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We are thrilled to have you with us today for another engaging literacy conversation.
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I'm conducting today's podcast from my native New Orleans, Louisiana.
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Today's episode, MTSS Multi-Tiered System of Supports, Ensuring Structured Literacy Across All Tiers and the Importance of Oral Language, features a distinguished guest whose work has shaped literacy instruction across the country.
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We are honored to welcome Dr.
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Antonio Fierro, a national recognized literacy expert, author, and educator whose work has significantly shaped literacy practices and policies across the country.
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Dr.
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Fierro is the author of El Muro de Sonigos Idelatio, co-author of Kids Lips, and a visiting senior fellow at the Science of Reading Center in Suni, New Palas.
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For nearly two decades, he was part of the National Letters Cohorts led by Dr.
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Luisa Motes, supporting educators and implementing evidence-based literacy instruction.
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His expertise spans classroom practice, educator preparation, and national policy with a special focus on improving outcomes for English learners.
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Beyond his professional accomplishments, Dr.
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Fiat brings a deeply personal commitment to his work as both an English learner himself and the father of a child with dyslexia.
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His voice is one of clarity, compassion, and urgency in advancing structured literacy for all students.
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Let's get started.
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Welcome, Dr.
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Fiero.
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Oh, Pam, thank you so much.
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It's great to see you, and it's great to be with all of you this uh today.
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I'm not sure whether it's going to be this afternoon or this morning, right?
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Today is the day, Antonio.
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Could you start by sharing your journey as both an educator and as an English learner and how that shaped your passion for literacy?
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Sure, absolutely.
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Yeah, first and foremost, once an English learner, always an English learner.
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And it was because of having to add English to my linguistic repertoire that I fell in love with language, period, and all the nuances of my own heritage language of Spanish.
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And then how does English work?
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And I think it all really began very early on when I did have some wonderful teachers in elementary, in my elementary grades that brought language to life.
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And I think that's been my mantra.
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And I keep on saying this over and over again that we live in the language laboratory.
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We are surrounded by oral expression.
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We are surrounded by written expression as well.
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I mean, language is alive and well.
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And you know what?
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So our viewers were with us a little while ago, but you yourself invented a new word as we were getting ready.
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So it's just magnificent how we have this wonderful gift of language.
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And it's uniquely human.
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And here, I mean, it's a perfect example.
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You kind of invented a new word just a few minutes ago.
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And we have that, right?
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We're always creating and exploring and discovering language.
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But let me tell you, what led me to education was really interesting.
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I was with the Department of Justice, and it was through an assignment that I had with them back with, well, without getting into specifics, but just an assignment then had with the Department of Justice that I got to see and partake in the learning experience of inmates who were probably reading at about a second or third grade level.
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And this was as an officer.
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I won't go into details.
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But I got to see the consequences of not being able to read and write, being illiterate.
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And I will never say that a life of crime is the way out, but when all the doors close because you can't read or write, then that's the reality is sometimes.
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I mean, that you might not have any other choice.
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And that's not the way it should be.
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It's not the way it no, it can't be that way.
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And at that point in time, I knew that I have tremendous respect for my brothers and sisters in law enforcement.
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And I knew that I had to be at the other end.
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And rather than be at the reactive stage of what had happened with individuals who may be illiterate, I had to be proactive.
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And that's when I got into education and went back to school.
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So I I went from carrying weapons to carrying, and I'm really aging myself, right?
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Carrying weapons to carrying chalk and erasers and knowing all that.
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But before they fall, right?
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And wouldn't you know that then many years later, I have a son who's born, and we noticed that early on there was some language delays.
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And yeah, so one thing led to another, and we know that dyslexia is a language-based disability.
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And so those were the first red flags.
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And Antonio Jr.
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doesn't, and we call him AJ, he doesn't mind me talking about that because he has become his own advocate, his own best advocate.
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And now he's in his final semester at Texas Tech University in Lubbock, Texas.
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And I'll tell you, I will sing the praises of that university for so many reasons.
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And primarily the biggest reason is that they have a program that is designed specifically for students with dyslexia.
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And they provide the scaffolds, the supports, the interventions, the tutoring.
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And I'll tell you, Texas Tech, I'm so, so indebted to what you have done for my son and for many other students who struggle with literacy.
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So yeah, so it was meant to be.
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It was meant to be.
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All of these experiences within the world, within the language lab, right?
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Exactly.
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Really shapes us and puts us in a certain direction.
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We've heard you mention that you shared a moment with a campus leader, right?
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In a literacy coach.
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It became a turning point for you.
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So you kind of gave us your journey.
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But when is this turning point?
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What did that moment reveal to you about what do we still need in the field?
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What's missing in the field?
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Exactly.
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It was just one of many turning points, Pam, that I I was so incredibly uh blessed to have had over two decades worth of learning and mentoring by the one and only Louisa Motz, right?
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And my wonderful colleagues as well.
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And we still collaborate on some projects to this day.
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But anyway, so you know, I've been involved in the psychology of reading, really, which is what we learned and prior to calling in the science of reading, that really did include all the other systems as well, or all the other fields of neuroscience, for example, and psychology and so forth.
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So we're in this our in our own little world, right, of literacy, and you think everybody knows this.
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And if I say this one more time, people are gonna say, oh, Antonio, please move on.
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But uh, and this was just a few months ago.
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I was having, and I write about it in my uh blog, I was having a conversation with a colleague of mine who I've known for many years as well, who has just been appointed as a principal at a charter school.
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And though he has lots of experience in administration, it was more of a support role.
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So his background is was limited when it came to the science or the psychology of reading.
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But anyway, I met with him and his campus reading coach because the literacy skills, the reading scores were incredibly low.
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And when I started talking about questioning and talking about, well, how are these elements of language taught throughout the day?
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And what are the principles in which you the principles P-R-I-N-C-I-P-L-E, right?
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That these elements of language are being taught.
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What tell me about that?
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So I was referring to structured literacy, right?
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This approach of how we're going to be teaching the science, right?
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The how and then the what, of course.
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And then got into the elements of language.
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What about phonology?
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What about morphology and or an orthography?
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Anyway, I had this blank stare from both of them.
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And then I realized that somehow or the other they were still at the beginning of their journey to try to understand what literacy was all about, which is was I'm not judging.
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I was surprised because we had spoken about it.
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Oh, I had, so many of us have, right?
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And somehow or the other, we still have we have members of our field.
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We have colleagues in the field who still do not understand the elements of language, right?
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The elements that make up this language laboratory we live in, and then let alone how the principles of delivering the instruction that embeds these elements of language.
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There was no understanding of that yet, and or limited understanding.
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And the other thing that worried me tremendously was the fact that this charter school had like 80%, 90% EL population was very large.
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And all kids, right?
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All students throughout the grade levels need these principles of structured literacy.
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You know, we need to understand this as educators.
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The how, the explicitness of the instruction, the data-driven essence of the instruction, the scaffolding, the multimodal levels of the instruction.
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But that's the how.
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But we were still missing the other areas too, the elements of language.
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And that's where I was like, well, do let's talk about what we mean by language altogether, and then let's talk about the principles of delivering that instruction.
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And so this is the foundation, Pam.
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This is where it all begins, right?
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So that was one of that, and that's just kind of like, oh my gosh, I need to define what do I mean by language?
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And that was, can I mention one more thing?
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Sure.
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So yeah, bring out the coffee.
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I was at a session also that was a group of educators working with entirely an English learner population.
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And I was talking about language, and that's when I also realized this was not not even that long ago either, that my audience did not understand what I meant by language.
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And it was just orisy.
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And yes, ORIC is incredibly important.
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It is the foundation, it is a thread.
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But when I'm and not but and when I'm talking about language, I'm also talking about how does this or see, how does this language then support the teaching of phonology?
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How does this or see, how does this oral language support the teaching of orthography?
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How does this oral language support the teaching of morphology?
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And this, Pam, it just excites me.
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And I hope that I know many of my colleagues of our colleagues are also excited.
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It it what it does is that the more that we know about how our language works, the more we're able to share about our language, and the more that we hear, right, the production being done by our students and explaining their discovery and their learning, it just instills a level of curiosity and wonderment about this language laboratory we live in.
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All right, so awesome.
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No, that's very exciting.
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Well, my takeaway from just your conversation here is all of us are in a different place.
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And even though there's so much language in regards to structured literacy, and as you said, the psychology of reading, we are all in a different place.
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Even though it is surrounding us, we might not have had all the opportunities to ingest.
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And even though we've come a long way in education, what I'm hearing you say is we've got a long way to go and we can't assume anything, right?
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At this point.
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Exactly.
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And although I spent many years on teaching the basics of literacy, you know, working with my colleagues, Danielle Thompson, Carol Tolman, Mary Dogren, Louisa, right?
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Judy Dotson.
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We were teaching everything that we needed to know about reading.
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But there's more, I mean, that's it gets the ball rolling, right?
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But we need to go back and revisit.
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And you're right, Pam.
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I mean, that's beautiful that we're all at a different state, at a different area of understanding, right?
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Of delivering.
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And we can't assume, Pam, that was so beautiful.
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We can't assume that we're all at the same place.
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And we have to have that patience and that understanding that we are sometimes our the mentors and the teachers to our fellow colleagues.
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And sometimes we need to be able to, not sometimes, many times, but we have to explain what this essence is all about.
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And it's not about learning these and these all these areas in silos.
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It is about understanding how they work in this language laboratory of ours.
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So the integration and the excitement that sounds from your voice, too, right?
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So knowing how language works, moving from a hearing it to being able to make those connections with structured literacy.
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You did a great job of integrating all that and kind of introducing the idea and laying the foundation for us.
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You've also emphasized something.
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You emphasize the importance of having clear operational definitions, right?
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For language to understand why this is so critical for MTSS while multi-tiered systems of supports.
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Absolutely.
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And especially, again, I always come around and build in on students who may have limited vocabulary, our English learners, are multilingual learners, dialectal variations.
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The bottom line, language, language, language, language.
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What happened in this session when I was talking about language, and that was just a big a hat for me when I was talking to educators of our English learners and multilingual learners at this one district, was that when I said language, it was automatically assumed that, or they went straight to Orsi, right?
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And yes, absolutely.
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And you know what?
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Let me just say one thing, though.
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Let me just say one thing about Orsi.
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Or see, Orcy, Orsi, because this is what we're gonna be talking about and continue talking about.
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Or see is about learning to talk and then learning through talk.
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All right, so so I want to make sure that we start there because it all begins with that, right?
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That learning to talk, learning to speak, and then through instruction, through experience, through involvement with others, that this learning to talk then extends to learning through talk.
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So what I learned from this session with these educators working with ELs and multilingual learners was that they did not understand or I failed to explain what I meant by language.
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All right.
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So so I'm going back to my background in linguistics and talk about language function and language form.
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All right, language function and language form.
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So when we are talking about language function, all right, you know, what do students do with language in order to demonstrate their understanding of the content?
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That's where I'm going with function, all right?
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So it can be describing, summarizing, it can be explaining, comparing, oh my gosh, analyzing, arguing.
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I mean, there's got, you know, why are you communicating?
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Why are we communicating?
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That is the function.
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And this is where ORC really takes off.
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And this is where we have to have that opportunity for students to explain why they are moving in this direction or summarize what they just listened to, because oral language is about speaking and listening, right?
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So what is that function?
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But that function, right, consists of oral and written language, right?
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I mean, you can either talk about it or you can write about it.
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Now, the difference, obviously, is that written language requires very explicit instruction, right, on what is that mapping between that sound or that phoneme and that grapheme.
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So language, I'm talking about either it can be either oral or written, but the difference, of course, is that written requires that very expliciteness of how do we map that phoneme, that sound to a letter, to a grapheme, right?
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And then written language is gonna be still embedded within this oral language.
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Still, oral language still is the umbrella that's gonna cover everything, all right?
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And oral language also, of course, I gotta describe it.
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What's a function?
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Describing, summarizing, explaining, right?
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The difference, of course, is that oral is gonna be that oral discourse, the written language is gonna be the writing, but that's the function.
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So I can have either I can describe it, I can analyze it, either orally or written.
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Now, so that is fine.
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I get it.
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But language also has form.
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And in this case, what I'm referring to is so form would be like the what of structured literacy.
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So form would be would include the phonology, for example, all right?
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So the morphology, the semantics, the syntax, the pragmatics, and then of course, in written language, the orthography.
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So it's in letter stands for language essentials, right?
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Well, those are the form language form is made up of these language essentials.
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All right.
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And so if I think about structured literacy, all right, and if I look at the one of the best infographics that's out there is the one that's published by IDA, that right has structured literacy and it's kind of in the middle of this infographic, and on one side it has the what, on the other side it has the how.
00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.079
Well, the what is that language form, right?
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:10.400
The phonology, the morphology, the syllable and stress patterns, all the elements, the orthography, that is the what language form, right?
00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:16.880
But in that essence of the what of structured literacy, you're also talking about reading comprehension and written expression, right?
00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:21.599
So it's all these elements, language form, all these elements that make up the what.
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:33.200
And if I think about structured literacy and I think about the infographic that IDA has, the how is going to be really those principles of how the instruction is going to be delivered.
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.240
So, and that that includes the explicitness of it, right?
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:42.880
That excludes as I mentioned earlier, yeah, the delivery bit based on data, data-driven instruction.
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:49.519
So those all those areas, if I take a look, the scaffolding that's going to be required, it has to be cumulative, sequential.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:54.640
So, so all that, the how really is how are you going to deliver that.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:59.279
And then the what is consists of the language, the language forms.
00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:06.720
And when I'm talking about it being highly interactive, then we're talking about the ORC and how is ORIC built within.
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:08.240
And that has to be throughout.
00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:09.279
It has to be throughout.
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:10.880
It has to be throughout.
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:18.319
Voyager Sopras Learning is the reading, writing, and math intervention specialist.
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:27.599
With four decades of results, we provide evidence-based interventions and assessments that help educators ensure academic success for all students.
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.799
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00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:48.000
The interaction we're talking about from teacher to student, from student to student, from student to teacher.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:56.480
And that helps to build all of that orisy that we're looking at when we're thinking about function, how it's used.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:57.039
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.759
And then in that form, all the rules.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:06.640
When I think about phonology, when I think about orthography, so thinking about all the rules and language, because they're there.
00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:07.039
Right.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:08.400
We just have to teach them directly.
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:08.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:09.680
So you're right.
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.319
That is awesome.
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:14.960
The functional language is going to be done through the oracle, primarily, right?
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:16.720
And then of course it's going to be written expression.
00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:26.559
I don't want, I don't want to forget about written expression, but that could also be, but as you're going through written expression, I mean, some of the scaffolding that's going to be provided is going to be what oral discussion.
00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:28.480
You know, how am I going to think about that?
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.480
How am I going to put all these ideas onto paper?
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:34.720
And it's having that discussion with my teacher, having discussion with my peers.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:36.240
What is the function?
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:36.720
All right.
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.240
And the ORC is the really the starting area, right?
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:41.839
To be able to deliver that.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:42.160
Yeah.
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:49.119
I say that oral language is setting them up for success because then we can get to where we need them to be.
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:50.319
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:22:50.319 --> 00:22:53.519
Going back to what you said, a chatty classroom, right?
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:55.119
Is a learning classroom, right?
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:57.119
I remember that from years ago, right?
00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:02.799
I but it's not just let me also mention one thing, and I'm sure you mean you've got this too.
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:06.960
I mean, it's not just about the quantity, right?
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:10.880
But it's the quality, right?
00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:12.400
That productive sense.
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:22.000
What are you, how are you producing these this discourse, whether it's oral or written, it is the quality of it to begin with, of oral, of oracy.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:22.480
Absolutely.
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:24.319
It's not about quantity.
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:27.599
We do want quantity, but it's quality is what we're after.
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:28.960
Quality is what we're after.
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:36.799
Would you say that the idea of the quantity, I've got lots and lots of language, is a misconception for oral development?
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:42.319
Would that be some misconceptions when we think about literacy instruction?
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:45.279
Well, we definitely want that quantity, right?
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:48.000
But it's not just, is that going to be senseless?
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:49.200
Is that going to be meaningless?
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.279
Yes, I want that opportunity.
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:56.079
But it's also, don't we have to be able to teach what the quality looks like?
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:58.000
And that would include pragmatics.
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.160
And that would include it includes listening.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.440
I mean, so it, yeah, so there's a whole lot more.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:08.400
We want that quantity, but there's got to be quality involved in there as well.
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:26.720
And that does include, though, that does include very explicit instruction of I say something, you're going to listen, you're going to process what I just said, and then you're going to go ahead and either add to it or you're going to perhaps go down another area, but then still provide the support, or why are you arguing my point?
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.559
Or why are you saying no, this is different?
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:31.039
But you have that that interaction.
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:33.759
You know, you've talked about the language laboratory.
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:36.640
You described that during that introduction.
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:41.759
In particular, for English language learners, how important is this?
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.440
How does that impact language and literacy for them?
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:46.960
Well, you know what?
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:48.160
Let me go back.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:57.359
I've always said that it is the teacher's knowledge base that's going to make all the difference in the world, right?
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:09.759
Because it is the teacher who is going to, you know, suddenly present this wonderment about this word or this wonderment about this phrase or this idiom, this metaphor, whatever the case may be.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:14.640
So I so it is that level of expertise that the teacher possesses.
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:16.720
And you know, well, we never stop, right?
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:20.160
Because English, and especially English, it's so vast.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:24.000
There's so much, but it's really darn interesting.
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:32.640
And when you start looking at the principles of how even orthography works in English, the last thing I want is for any of our colleagues to say, oh, you know what?
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:36.000
English is such a crazy language, so let's not even talk about the spelling.
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:36.720
No, it's not.
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:41.440
It's pretty, it's pretty consistent once we know this principles of spelling, for example.
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:52.960
And so getting back to your original question, so we as educators, we need to instill that level of excitement, that level of love for our language.
00:25:52.960 --> 00:26:00.160
And oh, yes, I can explain why this word sounds this way or why it's spelled this way.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.799
And if I don't know now, you know, I mean, I can look it up, I can ask my teacher, whatever the case may be.
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:07.279
But language shouldn't be a mystery.
00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:09.440
Language is about wonder.
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:10.640
So it is very important.
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:19.200
But for all across the board, though, Pam, especially for English learners who are multilingual learners, because they, you know what, we're making connections to our own home language.
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.559
And sometimes there is no connection, all right?
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:23.920
Sorry, all right.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:26.000
Something is complete opposite.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:29.200
But like, whoa, okay, all right.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:34.880
But so I am building a new pathway, a new neuronal pathway, right?
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:45.279
Because now I know what that means, or I know what that's like in my home language, but now I need to have another lane in my super reading highway that I possess, right?
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.079
Add another lane of that, oh, well, you know what?
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:54.160
In my language, that phoneme is never in the final position of words.
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:55.839
But in English, it is.
00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:57.039
So, oh, okay.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:04.559
So now I have to add that lane of, okay, well, now I have to know how to say that sound, especially in the final position and so forth.
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:08.799
And then going back to your another question that you had, or what we were talking about before.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:14.240
So it is about being intentional about the oral language, about the oracle.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.880
And like, especially if we're establishing a wonderment.
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.359
Tell me why this is interesting to you.
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:20.160
What is this?
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:22.319
How does this compare to your home language?
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:23.119
How is this?
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:23.920
Tell me about it.
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:25.440
Let's talk about it, right?
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:32.480
So, a dear friend, Sonia Cabell and her colleague Trisha Zucker, I believe, is that how you pronounce her last name.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:36.000
She they publish a book titled The Strive for Five, and they talk about that.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:40.400
They talk about having these conversations, and that's what it's all about.
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:52.240
My dear colleague Judy Dotson published years ago 50 Nifty activities, and she actually then had another publication for just specifically for oral language and how intentional we must be.
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:55.119
So, am I explaining the wonderments of the language?
00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:01.279
There's an opportunity for students to compare it to their language, for example, and how is this different or the same?
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:02.079
How does it compare?
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:05.759
So we have these wonderful discussions about this language laboratory of ours.
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:06.799
I just love it.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:08.160
The wonderment, the excitement.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.559
I can see you're excited about words, Antonio.
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:20.079
I am the discovery, the discovery of word, building a word sense, really understanding words and being able to take it apart and make comparisons.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:21.039
I think it's wonderful.
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:24.799
What I say is that every word has a story to tell.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:25.680
All right.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:28.079
Every word has a story to tell.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:41.039
And what's really the next level, though, is then having students talk about that word and that story and then compare it to a home language if it's if they're an English learner, or how does that extend?
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:50.079
Where do I see that prefix or that suffix, for example, in other words, or where do I see the root in other words, and then just keep on building on that and working on that?
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:55.119
And finally, attention is being placed on the adolescent struggling reader, right?
00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:56.799
And adolescent literacy.
00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:04.559
And yes, there's so much more that needs to be taught because now we're really talking about more complex text, for example.
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:26.400
The bottom line, though, is I go back to my days with the Department of Justice, and here were some grown men, right, who were at the time we had a policy that if if the inmate had entered the system without a high school diploma, they had to leave with a GED.
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:31.119
Now, this was our medium to high, medium to low, high security risks.
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:39.359
But the bottom line is that how can they go after a GED if they can't read?
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:45.119
And that's when NIVA was first introduced to the Wilson Reading program, because that was why it was developed.
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:47.920
It was developed for the older students who were struggling.
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:58.880
But I got to witness that teaching of how this system works, and along with some good phonemic awareness activities, that back then I had no idea what that was all about.
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:01.839
But the bottom line though is yes, it was adolescent literacy.
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:11.839
It's a whole different, it's kind of a whole different ballgame, but it's not, because we have to still ensure that those foundational skills are in place.
00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:18.559
The challenge is that you can't be using the same type of lesson, right, as you do a young child.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.880
And then, of course, then it's always how do you make the connection or the gem to connect to text?
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.319
Because now I have to practice that.
00:30:24.319 --> 00:30:30.000
So bottom line is we still need to understand how our language works.
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:30.720
Definitely.
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:32.640
Because age and size doesn't matter.
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:33.839
The need is still there.
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.599
Maybe the sophistication of your delivery might change a little bit.
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:38.079
It does.
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:39.920
Because when we think about old language, right?
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:45.279
It's not just restricted to our English learners, it's not just restricted to our struggling readers.
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:51.119
When we think about kids in tier one, okay, then we have our tier two, our tier three kids.
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:56.319
How do we incorporate for all levels across the board?
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:02.480
A colleague of mine has always stated that the one doing the talking is doing the learning.
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:12.559
And that goes back to what I said earlier about ORC is about learning to talk, but then it extends to ORC is about learning, right?
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:14.000
Learning through talk.
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:19.599
So the principles still remain the same, that it's not about quantity, it's about quality.
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:23.359
And it is also about an understanding of what was I just taught.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:31.839
And through ORC, through that oral discussion, it will help concretize that principle or whatever it was it that I was taught.
00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:36.319
So the principles of ORC and oral language is still consistent.
00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:45.279
And I think now we really do have a challenge, a tremendous challenge, that our students are not, our kids are not talking.
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:51.839
Our kids have more limited communication because of the devices that they have in in in front of them.
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:53.680
And even my son will say that.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:02.720
If I get on the bus to go to school and it's full of primarily students, no one is talking.
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:05.440
Everyone is in front of their in in with their device.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:06.720
There's no communication.
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:08.640
It is so hard to talk.
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:14.880
And so I need to understand these levels of syntactic awareness.
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:18.319
I need to know how words come together to make sense.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:20.240
I need to be able to communicate.
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:22.160
I need to be able to ask.
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:23.599
I need to be able to explain.
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:26.400
So the principles of oral language are still intact.
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:27.519
It's still intact.
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.240
I am going to, as a teacher, I am going to explain.
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:33.440
I have to explain the wonderments of the language.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:45.039
But at the same time, though, I need to be able to allow students to have the opportunity to now tell me about this learning and tell me why this is important to you and tell me where did you, where else do we see this?
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:49.920
And tell me about how am I going to connect that to whatever else else I'm reading.
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:55.279
And then, of course, then based on whatever else I'm reading, how does this gonna help me with reading comprehension?
00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:59.519
So it's that talk, it's that talk, it's that talk, but it's gonna be guided.
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:13.279
It's not just turn to your neighbor and turn to your neighbor and tell him, or turn to your neighbor and explain why you take the stabs, or turn to your neighbor and explain and tell your neighbor why this was so so important to you, or why this was like, oh, what a ha moment for you.
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:16.799
What did you learn about this, or why did you think that this doesn't really help any?
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:22.799
But yeah, I think right now as a society, we are definitely moving away from that oral discourse.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.759
And I think a lot of it has to do because of what's what's in front of us.
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:30.960
I was invited to do a keynote in Portland, Oregon.
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.920
And some other colleagues of mine were there as well.
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:39.599
But at lunchtime, we ate in the student union, right?
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:41.359
So it was full, it was packed.
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:42.160
It was all kids.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:43.440
They were all kids, right?
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:45.039
I was floored.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.759
I felt like going up and hugging every one of them.
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:49.200
I stand there.
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:54.400
I like to stand when there's a large gathering of folks and seeing is there's any talking or are they communicating?
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:57.759
But I looked around, and you know what, Pam?
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:03.039
I did not see a table with a device.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:08.800
They were laughing, they were talking, it was loud as all get out.
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.760
It was so loud, and I was so happy.
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.639
I was so happy because it was so loud.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:21.199
And the only ones who were with their devices, they were sitting alone or doing whatever they were doing, but they were now with the company.
00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:35.039
But I was just so thrilled that here we had young people who were actually, they had, I mean, they weren't doing purposely, but I don't think they understand what they were doing, but they were having these wonderful conversations and you know, having this is natural.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:48.559
What you're talking about, what you're saying with great oresy, I must admit, is that we need to provide intentional opportunities for language instruction.
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:54.320
Those examples that you were giving just a little while ago, it always had a why to explain.
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:59.840
So by answering why, you're expounding upon what you've learned and what you've known.
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:05.039
It's just not turn and talk, but turn and talk and explain why a certain concept.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:09.119
So that's a great way of actually incorporating that, right?
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:10.159
Very intentional.
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:21.280
I just love those ideas that you're and I've had some colleagues also when I visit campuses and visit classrooms who told me, you know what, I have to model, Antonio, how to have this conversation.
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:25.199
Because even if I say turn and talk, they're like, okay.
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:25.920
Yes.
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:27.360
Talk about what?
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:29.760
You just learned about.
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:31.199
So let me model for you.
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:40.559
And so it goes back to early on in our conversation panel, we're talking about, or you mentioned we can't assume, and it's the same thing now with oral language.
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:47.039
But do you remember those days when we used to dialogic talk, reading, dialogic reading, Socratic questioning?
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:50.400
I mean, we kind of got away from that.
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:57.440
And I've seen some publications that have said that we got away from all that talk because we started concentrating on foundational skills.
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:06.960
Okay, well, I don't know, but why can't we concentrate on foundational skills and talk about them and explain and have this discussion?
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.719
I mean, that's what it's all about.
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:18.159
And of course, with explicit instruction of how that conversation is gonna go with the levels of I speak, as I mentioned earlier, you're gonna listen, and then you're gonna go ahead and add to it.
00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:21.039
There's gonna be a level of respect, or and even say, hey, you know what?
00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:32.719
I'll I hear what you're saying, but I disagree because of blah, blah, blah, blah, because of this, and being able to honor each other's level of commitment and understanding of on a certain topic and be respectful of it.
00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:34.719
Now you're talking about social and emotional aspects.
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:35.199
Exactly.
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:37.199
It leads, but it's all connected, isn't it?
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:43.039
It's the idea of modeling it so that students understand what the expectations are.
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:45.599
What do we mean by this conversation?
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:51.039
Wouldn't that be a good way to motivate and to engage collaboration?
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:55.920
They have to see it, they have to understand it, and we can model that with great oresy.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:36:59.920
Yeah, there's some frameworks and models that are all across the world.
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:08.079
The UK, and the only reason I speak about the UK is because my brother actually lives in Europe, he lives in London and is a school administrator.
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:14.880
And he talks about in the UK, they've been after ORISE for quite some time now and the importance of it.
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:19.280
And we were talking about this certain topic, and he's like, there's certain aspects.
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:25.039
There's this physical aspect, the linguistic aspect, the cognitive, and then the social and emotional.
00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:26.480
The social and emotional.
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:28.639
And that's what we were just addressing right now, right?
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:37.039
Being able to speak with confidence and also realize that you're going to be listened to with respect.
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:42.719
And so, what about the social and emotional aspect of it's great to talk about oracy, right?
00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:46.880
And oral language and its impact on literacy, period.
00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:48.400
Who can argue about that?
00:37:48.400 --> 00:38:03.679
We need to also realize that this, as my brother said, the social and emotional aspect of what language can build for us, this collaboration with others, being able to listen or having folks listen and respond, but respectfully, right?
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:11.119
And be able to speak with ease and confidence that you're not going to be diminished, that you are going to be listened to.
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:13.360
And, you know, there's an awareness of what's going on.
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:13.920
All right.
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:15.119
Thank you so much for sharing that.
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:17.440
I do want to ask you something, get a little personal here.
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:24.159
So, as a both a researcher and a parent of a child with dyslexia, you mentioned a little bit about AJ.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:28.880
How has your personal experience influenced your professional perception?
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:39.440
What happens, if what I've been after, and if you go back and think about my journey through this career, it has been about professional development.
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:41.679
It has been about teaching.
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:45.039
I am in my element when I teach.
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:51.679
So as I worked with Luisa and all my colleagues, it wasn't about presenting information as today.
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.800
It's not about presenting information, it's about teaching, right?
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:56.320
It's about teaching.
00:38:56.320 --> 00:39:05.039
And I will always state the importance of a knowledge base that we possess as educators.
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:07.199
That is the silver bullet.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:09.280
That is the magic formula.
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:11.039
We keep on saying there is no silver bullet.
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:12.719
There's no yes, there is.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:14.960
It is the teacher.
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:16.800
It is the teacher.
00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:19.920
I have a niece who just started.
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.280
I need to, yeah.
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:26.960
My niece just started yesterday, it was her first day as a SED teacher.
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:28.960
Her very first day.
00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:31.119
And so we called her in the morning.
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:32.719
Hey, have a great day.
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:37.599
And then we checked with her last night, and she was so tired, so drained.
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:38.800
And I said, you know what?
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:42.000
Here's to the start of a wonderful career.
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.599
And don't forget that you're always a learner.
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:48.639
Just like you're always a teacher, you're always a learner.
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:57.679
And so what I found was through my career that, especially with the area of dyslexia, there's just so much awareness that needs to be established.
00:39:57.679 --> 00:40:01.440
There's so much learning that are uh that we all must do.
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:03.440
We all have to, we all have to.
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:08.320
So as my career has grown and through the years, it's always about learning.
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:12.239
And how do I better meet the needs of my son?
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:16.320
And how do I help his teachers meet his needs?
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:20.559
And then it was eventually, AJ, you have to become your own advocate.
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:22.239
And he has become his own advocate.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:27.039
But it is about how do I help prepare the field?
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:28.480
Knowledge is the key.
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:29.280
I agree with you.
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:30.960
Yeah, it is.
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:31.360
It is.
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:35.199
And so as I was telling Aubrey, my niece, like, you know what?
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:40.400
You may be the last hope for some of these kids, right?
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:48.880
And so you, especially you with the special population that you're gonna be working with, you have to know what is going on.
00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:52.320
So it's nonstop learning, and don't ever forget that.
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:58.880
I was gonna ask you this question, and that might be the answer, but I'm gonna ask it anyway to see if you want to add a little bit more to that answer.
00:40:58.880 --> 00:40:59.360
Okay.
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:07.440
If you could lean educators with one key takeaway about structured literacy and oral language, what would it be?
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:08.559
Ah, yeah, yeah.
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:14.400
Well, it is it is about really understanding the principles of structured literacy, right?
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:18.400
The principles of structured literacy, the elements of language.
00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:24.559
Do remember that language is about form, all these elements that make language, but it's also about function.
00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:26.559
And what are you going to use language for?
00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:28.800
And just realize that, yes, I know.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:35.840
I mean, yes, it's the challenges that educators have now is the challenges are amazing.
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:40.079
But just always be open to learning and to moving forward.
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.880
So yeah, that adding to the knowledge base is key.
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:43.519
Dr.
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:54.880
Fierra, I want to thank you for sharing your expertise, your personal insights, and your unwavering commitment to ensuring that every student has access to high-quality literacy instruction.
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:58.639
But your work reminds us that language and literacy are inseparable.
00:41:58.639 --> 00:41:59.760
That's definitely a truth.
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:00.079
Yeah.
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:03.440
And dating oracle across all tiers is so essential.
00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:03.840
Yep.
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:06.880
And it's needed for a success.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:20.639
So, to our listeners, we hope today's FU360 conversation inspires you to reflect on your own practices and to take actionable steps toward building classrooms where all students can thrive as readers and learners.
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:30.400
I wanted to remind our listeners to subscribe to our FU360 Thought Leadership Program at VoidYourSopers.com slash EU360.
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:36.079
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00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:49.440
Well, that's it for another great EVU360 podcast.
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:59.039
Please join us again next month and visit VoyagerSopras.com slash Edview to learn about our webinars, blogs, and other podcasts.
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:03.760
This has been Pam Austin, and we hope to see you again soon.
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:08.079
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00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:19.440
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