Michael Jones: Welcome to the Developing Experts Podcast, a show to help recruiters at every stage of their career to sharpen their skills, think more commercially, and ultimately become more effective and more credible. This podcast is all about real conversations with experienced recruiters, agency leaders, business owners, and high performers from all across the industry, unpacking what actually drives long-term success in recruitment. And I'm your host, Michael Jones, recruitment trainer. So on today's podcast, I'm delighted to be joined by Frontline Recruitment Group's Rookie Recruiter of the Year, Caleb Heslip, fresh off the win at their annual sales conference. Caleb, thank you so much for speaking with us today. very much looking forward to hearing all about your successful first year in recruitment.
Caleb: No worries. Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited myself.
Michael Jones: Good. Well I understand you're joining us from Brisbane where it's nice and sunny. I'm in Perth
Caleb: Yes.
Michael Jones: where it's also quite sunny. perfect weather for us to have a chat about your success in recruitment. So Caleb, tell us a little bit about yourself in terms of your role, the agency you work for and and what you recruit for.
Caleb: Yeah, sure. So as you've mentioned, I work for Frontline Recruitment Group. so we are specialist recruiters. so what that means is we have multiple different verticals within our business. so I work in the retail vertical. and we are also terrestr territory specialists. I work within regional Queensland So that's anything in Queensland that isn't Brisbane, and anything in Northern Territory. and I am a three sixty recruiter.
Michael Jones: tell us a bit about your background before you decided to join the industry.
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. So I am actually from the Lochyer Valley. not too far from Brisbane, about an hour and a bit drive. a very big agricultural region. so much to my father's dismay, I didn't want to become a farmer or a tradie. so I wanted to move to the big smoke to Brisbane. so I decided to hand out a lot of different resumes as he did back in the day. and I actually ended up getting a role with Connor clothing. I very quickly learned that I truly loved sales and finding an outcome for people. I'll never forget, and I'm 30 years old now, so we're talking 13 years ago. I'll never forget my first commission sale and that that feeling that I got, how excited I got. so I really ran with that and I moved my way up the ranks. I was a casual, moved my way up to ASM store manager. was there for four years, then I moved across to their brother brand Johnny Big. and I was there for three and a half years, moved up to a senior store manager role and then in a in a multi-site capacity as well. and then funnily enough, I think I was mid-20s, I decided to actually move away from retail for for a while and I actually moved into payroll for the education department, which was quite left field based off what I've told you so far. That role was good in its own right. it just wasn't really fulfilling me in the way I needed to feel fulfilled professionally. and last year I I was somewhat putting feelers out to to a few people and actually one of my old area managers, Danny, who now has been many years, she tapped me on the shoulder and she's like, Hey Caleb, like why not frontline? Why not recruitment? and I thought, Yeah, okay, I could see myself
Michael Jones: No.
Caleb: moving into that space. So yeah, I applied for the role. I I met with Rory and Pia. Rory's the agency owner here. And yeah, here we are. A year in. Yeah. Yes, that's right.
Michael Jones: We are. It's history. So you're a retail boy that does retail recruitment?
Caleb: Yes, yes, that's right. Yep. And I truly it's it's funny you say that 'cause I don't know I don't know how I'd go recruiting for other industries. I am very passionate about retail and and finding like minded retailers. So yeah. Hmm.
Michael Jones: It sort of gives you advantage, doesn't it, in terms of coming from that world, understanding the environment. You've got that instant credibility with candidates and clients because you've done that job.
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Hmm.
Michael Jones: Well, for what it's worthwhile about, I'm also a retail boy. so before recruitment, I worked in retail. and I think that
Caleb: nice. Yeah, awesome.
Michael Jones: retail people make excellent recruiters.
Caleb: Yeah, yeah, I agree to be honest. and especially in environments where it it is heavily KPI driven and it is your your make or break really if you if you make budget or or not. So yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's in a it's in our blood. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Hmm. So what was it about the role that made you decide, you know what, this does sound like a good career for me?
Caleb: So I think I'd always considered recruitment. and it's really funny now I reflect. I don't know why I didn't jump into it sooner. Obviously everything happens for a reason, I believe, but it was always something I considered and and why I say that is when I was in retail, and when I was managing my own store or multiple stores, I found myself very passionate about the building a team. and going into a store and figuring out the chemistry between a store manager to an ASM to casuals whatever have you so that was where my passions lie. and I think that I love to see the the development of that business after those people were placed within that business. and that's really why I love my role now is that like when I get to speak to place candidates and and how they're enjoying the role and how it's it's ticking these boxes for them. that's why I really love the role. It's very fulfilling in that in that regard. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, I completely agree with you. It's so rewarding, isn't it, to make
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: that impact on either the client and their business or the candidate and their livelihood and future prospects.
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So how did the job compare in terms of the reality of being a recruiter versus what you were expecting coming into it?
Caleb: It I actually, to be completely honest with you, had no idea what to expect. I knew it was going to be a challenging role, especially being an industry I've never been in before. I think I was expecting it to be a bit more black and white. but recruitment a lot of the times it it is grey, you know, it is art and it is science. so I think that was the biggest shock because I'm like, my goodness, I am in charge of my desk. I'm in charge of every single conversation I have with a candidate and a client. Like I I'm the I'm it. You know, there's
Michael Jones: Mm.
Caleb: no one to fall back on. So I think that was the biggest shock. Yeah.
Michael Jones: surprised by that too in terms of how much ownership and autonomy and accountability you
Caleb: Exactly.
Michael Jones: have even though I'm working for a business, I've got KPIs, I've got a manager, but it it is all on me, isn't it? It it's it's down to you
Caleb: Hmm. Yeah.
Michael Jones: and your conversations and your actions.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah.
Michael Jones: what would you say has been the most challenging part of the job so far?
Caleb: I think that honestly the resilience piece I think was something that was a bit of a shock to me and and I I actually will talk about too on on how that actually ended up being my strength in this role because originally it was quite confronting, quite daunting. because yeah, at the end of the day you're dealing with people and people have lives, things happen. and a lot of the time you might call fifty people a day and then no one will answer the phone. and at first I was like, okay, like this is tough. and that's something I certainly struggled with. and it's something I I don't think I was really prepared for. but as we know it it is it is all about activity, generating activity. It's all numbers. so it's it it was all just about like continuing, just pushing through, being resilient. Yeah.
Michael Jones: That is really hard, isn't it? You're you're doing all the right things, you're doing the activity, you're making the phone calls, but if people aren't
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: picking up or they're not interested or they're not right, all that work
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: you've done might not necessarily be generating any outcomes, but you're still doing the right thing. And that that's kind of hard to
Caleb: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jones: to deal with, isn't it?
Caleb: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. But I think something that I've learned too, one of my favorite expressions now with this job, but life in general is that people aren't that complicated. and you know, if if they want something, they'll do something about it. You know, they'll they'll get back to you, they'll answer your call. so that's something that's really helped me in this role as well, is having that mentality. you know, let them go if they're not interested. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Good mindset, isn't it?
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Michael Jones: And I'm wondering how did you go or how did you find going from selling products, you know, you you're selling clothes to guys, how have you gone from
Caleb: Mm-hmm.
Michael Jones: selling a product to a service where you're now seeing people to people and that person can change their mind or drop out or disappear? How did you find that change?
Caleb: Again, it was a bit of a shock and it was realizing like, my goodness, yeah, this isn't a shirt that isn't going to you know, ghost me or anything like that. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Or say I don't want to go home with that customer or you know, I've I've been in this person's wardrobe for a week and I don't like it. Can I come back?
Caleb: Yeah, yes, exactly. Exactly. so yeah, it was again a bit confronting. but what I quickly learned is of course I'm just dealing with people. so what I really love about this role is just having a great conversation with people and really learning what they're looking for. And if what I am currently recruiting for is not meeting their their expectations or aligns with them, then that's okay, you know. and and that that's what I That was probably the main difference. but now I actually love it more so than selling a a shirt or a suit. 'cause it's it's something that I can I can somewhat for a lack of a better phrase, play the long game with, you know, develop that relationship and have something for that candidate in another time. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Hmm. And it is often about that, isn't it? It's the big picture, it's the long game, it's not a transaction here
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: and now.
Caleb: Yes, a hundred percent. Hm.
Michael Jones: At least good recruitment is not that.
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Michael Jones: So Kelly, twelve months in. what's the best thing about your role?
Caleb: Yeah, I guess I I've I've kind of said it, but I I think of quite a number of candidates that I've placed now where I've I've connected with them and maybe somewhat been in in connection with them, connect with them and they're very unhappy where they are, just not meeting what they're looking for anymore, or just being there a long time, you know, for whatever reason it's just no longer aligned to them. And I love then finding a role for them. going through the process with them, placing them and then calling that same person two months later, be and they saying, like, I'm so happy. Let me tell you about all these things that I've done in my role. yeah, that's what I love about my job.
Michael Jones: It's just so rewarding, isn't it, to know that you've made a difference to somebody's life.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And you don't you don't get that feeling in in many jobs. Like I think sometimes we forget how important the work we do is and the impact that we can have.
Caleb: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, and it is really nice to to have somewhat control over that, you know. again being from payroll, being my last job, it was quite the opposite. I'm like, sorry, there's nothing I can do. Nothing I can do. but with this, it it is like, well, this job isn't right for you, but let's keep in contact. 'cause there might be something in the future.
Michael Jones: congratulations again on winning
Caleb: Thank you.
Michael Jones: Frontlines Rookie of the Year. tell
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: me how did that feel to win that award at the conference in front of all of your colleagues and peers?
Caleb: quite bizarre. it it w it was a great feeling, I won't lie. I'm a little bit of a crier, so I had a bit of a tear.
Michael Jones: All right.
Caleb: but you know, good tears of course.
Michael Jones: Of course.
Caleb: Yeah. but no, it was it was quite surreal because as I've said, I I I really didn't know what this role was gonna be, and I didn't know that I would be be successful really. so reflecting back over the last year or so, like i i it's really quite a surreal feeling. but it's really cool. I'm working from home today. but I have my trophy on my desk at at work in the office and yeah, it's really cool to to look at. It's very motivating actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Hmm. Yeah, I can imagine. And I was gonna ask you, you know, but w what does that win mean to you?
Caleb: obviously it it means a lot. and I think that it means that I I found something that and I actually said this in my speech at at conference, but it's actually something that like I've found that I want to become better at. something to continue to get better at. and I've done this first year and it's been great. but then what's next? I'm just like, okay, well, year two. But you know, it's back to square one. You know, what's next? yeah. So I guess if that answers your question.
Michael Jones: So it sounds like the the award was recognition of a great first year, a sign that you're
Caleb: Yes.
Michael Jones: you've done a good job. and and and now it means, Okay, what's next? I've got to follow that up, I've got to top that moving forwards.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause imagine if I did like half of what I did this year and this like that that would be really embarrassing, right? So now I've just got to one up myself.
Michael Jones: Sure, but yeah, you can't let the team down, you know, by not following through.
Caleb: Yeah, exactly.
Michael Jones: Did you know you were up for the award?
Caleb: I did. Yeah. I did. I won't lie. There was we we would regularly look at the numbers, especially
Michael Jones: Okay.
Caleb: the last few months of the financial year, just to see where it's all sitting. Yeah. Mm.
Michael Jones: Yeah. And I imagine it was quite competitive. what was your performance like that contributed to the win?
Caleb: Yeah, I I think and I don't want to sound like a broken record with this, because it does sound quite basic, but I really think like it's in those that activity. Like it I I think that recruitment actually has like a a pretty clear recipe on what it means to be successful, on paper, of course. so following that recipe, making those client calls, those candidate calls, those submissions, offers everything. that's that's kind of been my my success is is is just referring back to that and and picking up that damn phone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: A hundred percent, absolutely. And and Caleb, they're not they're not basics, they're fundamentals. And and you're absolutely right. Those
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: are the critical ingredients that go into building a successful business that make a
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: successful recruiter. so you've you've obviously done the volume of activity but matched with I imagine the quality activity. Because you've got to get the you
Caleb: Yes. Yeah.
Michael Jones: gotta get both, don't you?
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there there are a lot of people that would try out recruitment, they'd be like, I'm hitting my KPIs though. Like, why am I getting the outcome? and I think that it can even go the other way where you have fifty calls in a day but get nowhere. But if you have like five quality calls that lead somewhere, then that's actually probably more beneficial, really. So yeah, I agree. I know what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Given that we work in sales, we're typically measured by the outcomes, which is the revenue, the results, the financials. are
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: you comfortable sharing your personal best or what those financial results look like in terms of you winning the awards?
Caleb: I made a a personal well not personal, actual P B for the our agency, Regional Queensland. so the highest placement fee, which was really cool.
Michael Jones: Well that's
Caleb: and yeah, thank you. Yeah. And yeah, I I know that truly because w the the rookie award is measured off monthly average. so I achieved the highest of that, but I also achieved the highest in general, overall. So yeah,
Michael Jones: Hold on.
Caleb: I'm I'm very proud of those numbers. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Good on you. Good quality recruiter and a good biller. Wow, perfect. Love that. And then
Caleb: Yeah, that's it. That's what you want.
Michael Jones: is there anything else besides the activity and the the the fee performance that you think
Caleb: Right.
Michael Jones: helped you to get the award and be others that were up for it?
Caleb: Yeah. I think so. and I know the the top three of us we're we're all in different industries as well, so it makes it a little bit harder to to measure sometimes. But I think with what I always bring to the table in this role, but in life in general, is just to be authentically yourself. and I think as you mentioned before, Michael, I'm an ex retailer. so I understand retailers, but I can also relate to them, you know. a lot of retailers are most of the time a little bit more like, you know, loud, like a laugh, that kind of thing. And that's really the the type of person that I gel with too. so I think being authentically me, but what that also means is I'm always honest with my clients and candidates. and the regional Queensland market, can often be quite tough, I guess, in terms of what they're what brands are looking for in certain regions. and so I'm always honest with them and being like, Yeah, look, I I know exactly what you're saying, knowing what you're looking for. this is this person who isn't meeting A B and C. However, I know that they can bring a a strong skill set to your business. So it it's constantly having those honest conversations 'cause at the end of the day, if I didn't do that, they'd be like, well, Caleb's not talking to me. He has no one. Let's go to somebody else. I'll go to another recruiter. but yeah, I I keep them i engaged, I guess. And yeah, 'cause at the end the day if if they are decision maker or even a TA and head in a h head office, they're feeling the pressure, you know. So at least then they can provide that insight to to their business as well. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And that's part of the art of recruitment, like you said. It is providing the insights, it is
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: managing expectations, it's negotiating job specs and trying to solve problems
Caleb: Really?
Michael Jones: for people, as opposed to going out there to try and find the perfect person or the perfect job because you know it's a candidate short market, those those unicorns don't exist and you run the risk of overpromising
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: and under delivering otherwise.
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, love, love everything you're saying so far. So
Caleb: Yes.
Michael Jones: I'm sure you've heard this before, but the first year in recruitment is typically the hardest. You know, it gets easier after year one, which is good news for you to hear. But but what was your
Caleb: Okay.
Michael Jones: experience of the first year? Did you have those ups and downs?
Caleb: Yeah. definitely. Yep. and again it was something that I I I guess I hit the ground running quite quickly in the in the role and there there were a few roles that I luckily inherited but then also I I did yeah, I just had some good client calls and and things started moving quite quickly. and so I think it got to about actually December and I was still doing really well. and then I actually took some time off over Christmas. and I had nothing in the works for January. and it continued to be that way through all of January, which meant I didn't make any placements in January. And I think I made one or two in Feb. So it was a really high high to a really low low. And I struggled. I really struggled, I won't lie. and yeah, I didn't really know how to get out of what felt like a rut at that time.
Michael Jones: Yes.
Caleb: but what I've been learning and again what I say to people when they ask me this question i is always about the the long game as I've said and about that activity is, you know, even today I'll I've been making phone calls about things happening in October. you know, so it's all about thinking ahead, not about that quick win today, but what is the the bigger win that you can create for the the bigger picture, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yes. And this is the difficulty of sales, isn't it? It's you're only as good as your last month and you've got to maintain that level of
Caleb: No.
Michael Jones: consistent activity to build that pipeline. And what you do now typically impacts on what happens in two or three months' time. And and what you were describing
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: before about taking a holiday, which was, I'm sure, very well needed and and earned. But you know, it's something like taking time off can impact on the future pipeline. And then you scramble to get things back up and running again. and I imagine it felt very uncomfortable not not billing much for that period of time.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And it was it was quite concerning to be honest. Cause I I was a little bit like in my head about it then 'cause I'm like, did I just have a lucky streak or did I yeah, I don't know. It it was a hard one. and it's all in the mindset too, which is is something that I think is a very big thing in recruitment, but all about mindset and and it was just like flicking a switch one day. It's just like, Okay, well you've got to lock back in. Gotta turn it around. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, absolutely. Because the risk otherwise is if you get into this very panicked state of mind, you then start
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: bashing out poor quality activity. You know, if
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: you don't have any jobs on and you're worried about you haven't built, you then start just hunting and calling anybody, trying to get a job on, and you become a bit of a busy
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: fool. So you're right, you've got to
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: get your head back in the game, click in, focus.
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: And just know
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: that I'm I'm if I if I do what I know how to do, I will get
Caleb: Nice.
Michael Jones: this baby back on track.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I learned the hard way because I lived through that those couple of months and I'm like, I never want to be in that position again. Where I'm scrambling for a new role and scrambling for something, you know, I I wanna set myself up for success as best I can. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So in terms of what you what you learnt about that, what would you say you took away from that experience? Hopefully it wasn't never go on holiday. Because we do need a break every now and then, but you know.
Caleb: yeah. No, definitely not. Yeah. No, definitely not. And I actually have a great example of that is I actually went away recently, just before our conference, I went to New Zealand and I made three placements when I was away. Yeah, thank
Michael Jones: Congrats.
Caleb: you. Yeah, so I've certainly learnt from that. and To be honest, I and again I feel like a broken record, but I think the first thing is the the want and the drive. You really have to just truly have that hunger in this role to to get that. and I think that once again that's the difference between someone being successful and not successful is again you can be doing all the activity but not getting the outcome. But if you're hungry, you'll you'll get there, you have that drive, you'll find that the the solution. so I think having that and again also generating that activity and and hustling hard like that week before I I went away to New Zealand this time. yeah, I was working right up to the the eleventh hour just to make sure everything was tied up. yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, I can imagine. But then you earn your holiday. You could relax knowing that everything has, you know, happened behind the scenes and you made three placements. So it's supposed to show.
Caleb: Yeah. That's that's it. There was one time I was away and there I I thought once about work where it's like, I wonder how that interview went, but that was it. So I consider that a win. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.
Michael Jones: I I do too. That's that's very good discipline. And I think what you said before hustle, like I love that. I that I I look for hustle when I'm recruiting
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: people to become recruiters because I think that
Caleb: Wait.
Michael Jones: that hard work, that tenacity, that level of I wanna work really hard to get things done and make shit happen and I'm gonna take ownership of this and this is my baby and I'm gonna hit those goals. I think that's the
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: difference between an okay recruiter and amazing recruiter. And and you seem to have like hustle and drive and determination. That that comes through very clearly.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So in your in your LinkedIn post, you talked about you know, work hard, play hard, keep going. I guess that kind of
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: links back to what we're talking about at the moment, but is that a a mantra of yours? Does that mean something in particular to you?
Caleb: does it's probably actually how I live my life. I I love to, you know, have a beverage on the weekends. I like to travel, I like nice things, and and so I know what I need to do to get there. and if I have a job that I I like and I'm passionate about, I'm like, okay, cool. Well there's two two parts of the puzzle. and yeah, keep going. I think that to to be honest, Michael, what really resonated with me with that was it has been a really big year and in a lot of good ways. And I think personally I have been through a lot this year too. So that's been something that I've just had to do this year is just to to wake up every day and make that conscious choice to to be like, look, you know what? Let's do it. So yeah, I guess that's where that comes from. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Well the results it for themselves. So, you know, well done. I'm a a a a great year. And it is about working hard. This this
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
Michael Jones: job is w hard work. I mean, I thought I worked hard in retail, but holy moly, it was next level in recruitment. So the difference is you're
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Jones: benefiting much more directly from the blood, the sweat, the tears you're investing in the recruitment job because you know, though those extra calls, that that extra candidate interview, that extra hour that I've invested into my business is making me more placements and earning me earning me more commission. So I guess that's the difference,
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: isn't it?
Caleb: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And it's not about working hard, it's about working efficiently and strategically and and and in a smart way. So I'm just curious
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: what what you learned along the way about being more efficient and working smarter, not necessarily just harder?
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. so every recruiter that will listen to this will probably cringe when I say this 'cause I think everyone struggles with it. Time blocking. I think time blocking is a game changer. and something that you should implement from day dot. I I think that I when I started I was so excited. I'm like, cool, now this is happening. they want to interview him. cool, they're offering him, you know. So I was jumping everywhere and then Things started to slip and I and then I I actually had a very candid conversation with my manager and he's like, Yeah, you go time block, like this is a mess. So let the hard way get. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Michael Jones: This is a difficult isn't it's such a busy job and it's so reactive. Things are happening all the time. But if you just get carried in the tide, you're just gonna get swept away. So if anyone's not familiar
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: with time blocking, explain that to me, Caleb, and what what does that look like in reality?
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. So I think having a plan for your day. I I what I do personally is write a list out for the day, what I need to follow up on, that kind of thing. But I'll then putting into my calendar, you know, two hours for V D is now, two hours for candidate calling is now, and then follow ups later in the day, that kind of thing. because and it's so tempting. I I think I mentioned it earlier, but You might even see an email notification come through from a a client, be like, I wanna read that, but you know, just hold off until until the end of the activity you're currently doing. Unless it's super urgent, of course. yeah. Yeah. but I think that's yeah.
Michael Jones: Of course. But this is the thing, we we we can get very easily distracted with an email,
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: a phone call, a message, and then before we know it, we're getting bogged down in stuff that isn't a priority or we're neglecting that really
Caleb: No.
Michael Jones: important task that we should be doing. So yeah, I'm
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: a huge fan of time blocking and the the the
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: agency that I worked in at the start of my career was very, very good at that time blocking and the sir the you know that you would do the same tasks at the same time on the same day each week. And it just helped me cover all my bases, spin all those plates and stay really focused. I'm glad to hear that you do that
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: 'cause I think it is pretty key.
Caleb: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Any other ways that you have implemented or or or learned to be more efficient in how you do things?
Caleb: Yeah, it's somewhat of a contentious one, if I'm honest. but I think within reason, utilizing your tools. So what I mean by that is I think AI at the moment is is something that recruiters should use to an extent. and the reason why I say that is I think the the most successful part about recruitment is the connections you make and the conversations you have. so if if AI can assist you with let's be honest, mundane admin,
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Caleb: then I think utilize that and that then makes a a fifteen minutes of you to write an email into five minutes that frees up that valuable time with your candidates and clients. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: That's right. You can then invest into having a conversation with a human being that strengthens a relationship or drives an outcome. So yeah, I I agree
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: with you. I think there's a huge opportunity to utilize tech and automation, but not
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: ignoring, as you say, recruitment's all about relationships.
Caleb: Mm. Yes, absolutely. Yep.
Michael Jones: So we've talked about the work hard bit. What does the the keep going bit mean to you?
Caleb: I think that it's just like it if it's a hard day it'll get better. You know, it it it's always gonna come back. If you're working hard, if you're putting in the the right the right emotions, right activity, that kind of thing, if you're having valuable conversations, it's gonna come back. So just keep going. You know, if it's a bad day, it's a bad day. Just leave it, shake it off, move on, keep going. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, you've to be pretty resilient in this gig and there's gonna be setbacks and disappointments, but you y
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Mm.
Michael Jones: you absolutely have to pick yourself up and keep on going. Is that something that comes naturally
Caleb: Yeah. Hm. Yeah.
Michael Jones: to you or have you had to work on that resilience piece?
Caleb: I think naturally it does come to me. And I didn't actually know that about myself until I started this job. just again, life happens. and reflecting on things I've been through in my life, I think that I am quite a resilient person and that now comes into this job where and and let's be real, there's been times where you're just like, this
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Caleb: is too hard.
Michael Jones: Fundy percent.
Caleb: Yeah, but it's just a moment. It's a moment in time. You know, move move on, keep going. Yeah, be resilient. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah. Love it. Tomorrow's a new day. So if you were to reflect back on year one in recruitment, what advice would you have for
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: somebody just starting out in the industry to help them navigate the roller coaster ride and the ups and downs of the journey ahead?
Caleb: Yeah. I think question everything. I think that when I started and I had some really great resources, really great training. I had local training here in Brisbane, but then I also attended our head office training. And I was d I felt like this little shy Queenslander. I'm like, I can't I can't ask questions. But I realize now how silly that was because you know, if I have a question nine times out of ten, the other another person in that training has the same question. so there's that, but then that is also something to implement when you're on your desk too. there's been times when I started and to be honest, there's even still times recently where someone has said something or someone's tones off in a phone call and I've like let it go. and then it's come back to bite me later because I didn't actually explore that and and ask ask those questions. So that's what I'd say is just have that keep an open mind and and don't stop asking until you know everything you need to know.
Michael Jones: Yeah, I think that's brilliant advice. And I I I really do think questioning is the most vital skill that you need to master in recruitment. you won't learn if you don't ask questions. If things go unchecked or unsaid or unexplored, as you mentioned, it can bite you in the butt. And asking questions shows that you're interested and it builds relationships and you know, knowledge is power. So Yeah, I I think it's a very
Caleb: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jones: good bit of advice to people. Ask lots of questions, be really curious and soak up all this information.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And and Caleb, does it get easier in year two?
Caleb: it's a hard point.
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Caleb: Yes and no. it might be a trick question. No. yes and no. Yes, because you are are so much more confident than you were a year ago. no, because you don't quite know with recruitment what's gonna happen. You know, next week could be a completely different market where no one wants to talk to you, no one has agency spend. Yeah, and then you you're in a completely different boat. I hope I'm not yeah.
Michael Jones: disappear or dry up, yeah.
Caleb: Yeah, that's right. And I really hope I'm not manifesting that for myself, by the way.
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Caleb: yeah, but it it can be it can be a lot easier and I think every conversation I still have till this day, I find this role some not easier, but I I know I'm getting more of a grasp on it every time. But yeah. It it can it can change on a dime, which which can hurt, which which can make it harder. Yeah. Hm.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. I I I think you're right, it gets easier because you're more confident and you're more knowledgeable about what you're doing, but it's never easy. It's never easy. Yeah.
Caleb: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Well, you know, I think you've you've shared some fantastic insights with the group. I can see very clearly why you were awarded rookie of the year, not just because of your results, but because of your
Caleb: Thank you.
Michael Jones: potential, your personality, what you bring to the table. so yeah, that's been really great. I I'd like to start wrapping
Caleb: Yeah. Thank you.
Michael Jones: up the podcast with a couple of quick fire questions, if you don't mind. so
Caleb: Okay. Yeah, okay. See how I go.
Michael Jones: I think I know the answer to this question, but what's been the proudest
Caleb: huh.
Michael Jones: moments in your recruitment career to date.
Caleb: Yeah. definitely changing lives. I think that's been the definitely the proudest moment. and that's not just one moment which is amazing. That's been many moments over the last year and a half, year and a bit. So yeah. Yeah. Well that yeah, that too. That solidified that. So there you go. They go hand in hand. Yes. Yep.
Michael Jones: I thought you were gonna say the award win, but no, that's all right, no problem. There you go, that's the culmination of all of that great stuff. people can be peculiar. what's been the strangest candidate or client interaction you've had so far without naming names?
Caleb: Yeah. I I actually and I love this. This is one of my faves. I faced a candidate in a role. She was so happy. she ended up calling me Caleb the the little super duper trooper. yeah, I'm the I'm the super duper trooper. And
Michael Jones: Ooh, okay.
Caleb: yeah, that's right. Yeah, we actually have it written up on our board at in the office that Caleb is the super duper trooper. But I love that 'cause this candidate was you know, very very funny, very funny person and I really love that. and so not necessarily strange in a bad way, strange in a good way. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jones: There you go, love it. what's one thing that you wish you had known or known
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: how to do much earlier on in your career? Like if you could go back in time to Caleb at the beginning
Caleb: Okay.
Michael Jones: of his recruitment career, what's one thing you might say to him?
Caleb: Yeah, again, I think what I was saying earlier about questioning everything,
Michael Jones: Mm.
Caleb: and and keep digging until you know for sure, because as we know, when we're dealing with people, like anything can happen. But
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Caleb: as we as we know and as we go through our training and and everything, like we we should know exactly how a a candidate really is feeling through an entire process. so asking those those questions. qualifying questions every single time you make that connection with them. because again, I think in the beginning I got caught up in the excitement. sorry, this is supposed to be quickfire, isn't it?
Michael Jones: yeah.
Caleb: get get caught up in the excitement and and then I I'm like, yeah, cool. Like they're gonna accept and then they don't, you know? yeah. So just Yeah. Hundred, hundred percent. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And then maybe because we've made an assumption or we've ignored a red flag. Yeah. Yeah, that would be very good to go back in time and give yourself that advice. It would potentially
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: have avoided a lot of issues. Yeah, that's one. What's one habit that you recommend all recruiters develop
Caleb: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jones: as quickly as possible, other than time blocking?
Caleb: Yes. morning lists morning lists religiously. I do one every single day. I've got one right here.
Michael Jones: Okay.
Caleb: and break it up into I I break one up into candidate, into client, into admin, and then block those
Michael Jones: shit super organized.
Caleb: yeah, accordingly, with my time blocking. so yeah. Absolutely. 'cause I know like I'll look at my desk every day and just write everything I need to do and I know nothing gets missed. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, it's a very good system to put in place. What's the most underrated recruiter skill, in your opinion?
Caleb: ooh yes. yeah, it's a it's a good one. I think you know what? Really being able to read people, so someone's tone or someone's body language, things like that. it's it's something that I feel most people wouldn't really think that we have to do, but I do now it's kind of like I'm I'm a I'm a a a a crazy ex or something. Like when I when someone's like like hey how was your interview? Like, yeah, this is okay. I'm like, What does that mean? What does that tone mean? Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're reading between the lines and picking up on signals. Yeah.
Caleb: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that's the most underrated one to be honest. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah. And I think that feeds into your your intuition, your spidey senses. Like, trust you, if something's feeling off, you need to ask
Caleb: Exactly.
Michael Jones: a question or follow up or what do you mean it was okay? Just just okay? Yes. I I hear ya. what's the best
Caleb: Yeah. Yes, that's right. Yeah. I want it to be excellent, you know. Yeah.
Michael Jones: career advice you've ever received? And that could be in recruitment or, you know, outside of that.
Caleb: Yeah, It's really basic and everyone's heard it every day. But it's the, you know, if you enjoy what you do, you never work a day in your life. And I think that I don't actually fully believe in that 'cause I think that every job has its fla flaws, you know, every job. It's it's the way we
Michael Jones: Mm.
Caleb: are. But I think it's it's truly important to find something that you're passionate about and that aligns to who you are as a human. and hence why I like recruitment. But also, I had that in my previous role. And again, nothing against that role. It just wasn't for me. And I didn't realise that at the time, but now I do realise that that it's just so important to be passionate about what you do.
Michael Jones: Hundred percent. Yeah. So what does the future look like for Caleb? What are the goals and aspirations you've set for yourself?
Caleb: Yeah. I I really as we've established enjoy my role now. and I think I I really do love the network that I'm a part of. so growing that, I am a I am a Queenslander, I am a retailer, so I'm right where I need to be. and I'm really excited to to continue to br grow this business and then in the future move move up in that business and progress and into more leadership roles. Yeah, once I've earned my stripes. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Nice.
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Awesome.
Caleb: Yeah. And every role I've been in, I've always been progressed into that management role. So I know that's who I inherently are. yeah, just have to have to get this down pat first and and see how we go. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Of course. Yeah, yeah, I I reckon you're one to watch. So look forward to seeing your future
Caleb: No.
Michael Jones: career prospects flying. last question, I asked this to everybody, but what's something that people would be surprised
Caleb: Yes.
Michael Jones: to learn about you that you're comfortable with sharing, of course?
Caleb: Yeah. I I've already said it, but I think people are always shocked that I grew up on a farm. you know, I used to wake up at at four AM to feed the calves and shift the pipes and and that kind of thing. yeah, so I don't present that way anymore, but country boy at heart. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Country Boy Heart. There we go. You heard it here first. Awesome. Well, Caleb, I've really enjoyed chatting to you today. I really appreciate you giving me this time. And I think you've got some great habits and routines that you've developed that anybody listening would really benefit from putting into practice themselves. like I said,
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: congratulations on your award win. I can see why. You know, it's not just the fees, it's the quality of the work and it's your potential that I imagine frontline recognised as well. And yeah, I look very much forward to seeing you continuing your recruitment career and leading a team and inspiring other people to follow your example. So, thank you again for this time today.
Caleb: Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Hmm.
Michael Jones: Excellent. Well look forward to our next episode. Thank you so much.
Caleb: Yes. Will too. Thank you very much, Michael. Cheers. Thanks guys.
Michael Jones: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Developing Experts Podcast. Be sure to join us again. And if you'd like to be a guest, put forward someone, or nominate a topic for discussion, then please reach out to me on social media or via email. I look forward to seeing you again next time.
Caleb: No worries. Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited myself.
Michael Jones: Good. Well I understand you're joining us from Brisbane where it's nice and sunny. I'm in Perth
Caleb: Yes.
Michael Jones: where it's also quite sunny. perfect weather for us to have a chat about your success in recruitment. So Caleb, tell us a little bit about yourself in terms of your role, the agency you work for and and what you recruit for.
Caleb: Yeah, sure. So as you've mentioned, I work for Frontline Recruitment Group. so we are specialist recruiters. so what that means is we have multiple different verticals within our business. so I work in the retail vertical. and we are also terrestr territory specialists. I work within regional Queensland So that's anything in Queensland that isn't Brisbane, and anything in Northern Territory. and I am a three sixty recruiter.
Michael Jones: tell us a bit about your background before you decided to join the industry.
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. So I am actually from the Lochyer Valley. not too far from Brisbane, about an hour and a bit drive. a very big agricultural region. so much to my father's dismay, I didn't want to become a farmer or a tradie. so I wanted to move to the big smoke to Brisbane. so I decided to hand out a lot of different resumes as he did back in the day. and I actually ended up getting a role with Connor clothing. I very quickly learned that I truly loved sales and finding an outcome for people. I'll never forget, and I'm 30 years old now, so we're talking 13 years ago. I'll never forget my first commission sale and that that feeling that I got, how excited I got. so I really ran with that and I moved my way up the ranks. I was a casual, moved my way up to ASM store manager. was there for four years, then I moved across to their brother brand Johnny Big. and I was there for three and a half years, moved up to a senior store manager role and then in a in a multi-site capacity as well. and then funnily enough, I think I was mid-20s, I decided to actually move away from retail for for a while and I actually moved into payroll for the education department, which was quite left field based off what I've told you so far. That role was good in its own right. it just wasn't really fulfilling me in the way I needed to feel fulfilled professionally. and last year I I was somewhat putting feelers out to to a few people and actually one of my old area managers, Danny, who now has been many years, she tapped me on the shoulder and she's like, Hey Caleb, like why not frontline? Why not recruitment? and I thought, Yeah, okay, I could see myself
Michael Jones: No.
Caleb: moving into that space. So yeah, I applied for the role. I I met with Rory and Pia. Rory's the agency owner here. And yeah, here we are. A year in. Yeah. Yes, that's right.
Michael Jones: We are. It's history. So you're a retail boy that does retail recruitment?
Caleb: Yes, yes, that's right. Yep. And I truly it's it's funny you say that 'cause I don't know I don't know how I'd go recruiting for other industries. I am very passionate about retail and and finding like minded retailers. So yeah. Hmm.
Michael Jones: It sort of gives you advantage, doesn't it, in terms of coming from that world, understanding the environment. You've got that instant credibility with candidates and clients because you've done that job.
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Hmm.
Michael Jones: Well, for what it's worthwhile about, I'm also a retail boy. so before recruitment, I worked in retail. and I think that
Caleb: nice. Yeah, awesome.
Michael Jones: retail people make excellent recruiters.
Caleb: Yeah, yeah, I agree to be honest. and especially in environments where it it is heavily KPI driven and it is your your make or break really if you if you make budget or or not. So yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's in a it's in our blood. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Hmm. So what was it about the role that made you decide, you know what, this does sound like a good career for me?
Caleb: So I think I'd always considered recruitment. and it's really funny now I reflect. I don't know why I didn't jump into it sooner. Obviously everything happens for a reason, I believe, but it was always something I considered and and why I say that is when I was in retail, and when I was managing my own store or multiple stores, I found myself very passionate about the building a team. and going into a store and figuring out the chemistry between a store manager to an ASM to casuals whatever have you so that was where my passions lie. and I think that I love to see the the development of that business after those people were placed within that business. and that's really why I love my role now is that like when I get to speak to place candidates and and how they're enjoying the role and how it's it's ticking these boxes for them. that's why I really love the role. It's very fulfilling in that in that regard. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, I completely agree with you. It's so rewarding, isn't it, to make
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: that impact on either the client and their business or the candidate and their livelihood and future prospects.
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So how did the job compare in terms of the reality of being a recruiter versus what you were expecting coming into it?
Caleb: It I actually, to be completely honest with you, had no idea what to expect. I knew it was going to be a challenging role, especially being an industry I've never been in before. I think I was expecting it to be a bit more black and white. but recruitment a lot of the times it it is grey, you know, it is art and it is science. so I think that was the biggest shock because I'm like, my goodness, I am in charge of my desk. I'm in charge of every single conversation I have with a candidate and a client. Like I I'm the I'm it. You know, there's
Michael Jones: Mm.
Caleb: no one to fall back on. So I think that was the biggest shock. Yeah.
Michael Jones: surprised by that too in terms of how much ownership and autonomy and accountability you
Caleb: Exactly.
Michael Jones: have even though I'm working for a business, I've got KPIs, I've got a manager, but it it is all on me, isn't it? It it's it's down to you
Caleb: Hmm. Yeah.
Michael Jones: and your conversations and your actions.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah.
Michael Jones: what would you say has been the most challenging part of the job so far?
Caleb: I think that honestly the resilience piece I think was something that was a bit of a shock to me and and I I actually will talk about too on on how that actually ended up being my strength in this role because originally it was quite confronting, quite daunting. because yeah, at the end of the day you're dealing with people and people have lives, things happen. and a lot of the time you might call fifty people a day and then no one will answer the phone. and at first I was like, okay, like this is tough. and that's something I certainly struggled with. and it's something I I don't think I was really prepared for. but as we know it it is it is all about activity, generating activity. It's all numbers. so it's it it was all just about like continuing, just pushing through, being resilient. Yeah.
Michael Jones: That is really hard, isn't it? You're you're doing all the right things, you're doing the activity, you're making the phone calls, but if people aren't
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: picking up or they're not interested or they're not right, all that work
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: you've done might not necessarily be generating any outcomes, but you're still doing the right thing. And that that's kind of hard to
Caleb: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jones: to deal with, isn't it?
Caleb: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. But I think something that I've learned too, one of my favorite expressions now with this job, but life in general is that people aren't that complicated. and you know, if if they want something, they'll do something about it. You know, they'll they'll get back to you, they'll answer your call. so that's something that's really helped me in this role as well, is having that mentality. you know, let them go if they're not interested. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Good mindset, isn't it?
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Michael Jones: And I'm wondering how did you go or how did you find going from selling products, you know, you you're selling clothes to guys, how have you gone from
Caleb: Mm-hmm.
Michael Jones: selling a product to a service where you're now seeing people to people and that person can change their mind or drop out or disappear? How did you find that change?
Caleb: Again, it was a bit of a shock and it was realizing like, my goodness, yeah, this isn't a shirt that isn't going to you know, ghost me or anything like that. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Or say I don't want to go home with that customer or you know, I've I've been in this person's wardrobe for a week and I don't like it. Can I come back?
Caleb: Yeah, yes, exactly. Exactly. so yeah, it was again a bit confronting. but what I quickly learned is of course I'm just dealing with people. so what I really love about this role is just having a great conversation with people and really learning what they're looking for. And if what I am currently recruiting for is not meeting their their expectations or aligns with them, then that's okay, you know. and and that that's what I That was probably the main difference. but now I actually love it more so than selling a a shirt or a suit. 'cause it's it's something that I can I can somewhat for a lack of a better phrase, play the long game with, you know, develop that relationship and have something for that candidate in another time. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Hmm. And it is often about that, isn't it? It's the big picture, it's the long game, it's not a transaction here
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: and now.
Caleb: Yes, a hundred percent. Hm.
Michael Jones: At least good recruitment is not that.
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Michael Jones: So Kelly, twelve months in. what's the best thing about your role?
Caleb: Yeah, I guess I I've I've kind of said it, but I I think of quite a number of candidates that I've placed now where I've I've connected with them and maybe somewhat been in in connection with them, connect with them and they're very unhappy where they are, just not meeting what they're looking for anymore, or just being there a long time, you know, for whatever reason it's just no longer aligned to them. And I love then finding a role for them. going through the process with them, placing them and then calling that same person two months later, be and they saying, like, I'm so happy. Let me tell you about all these things that I've done in my role. yeah, that's what I love about my job.
Michael Jones: It's just so rewarding, isn't it, to know that you've made a difference to somebody's life.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And you don't you don't get that feeling in in many jobs. Like I think sometimes we forget how important the work we do is and the impact that we can have.
Caleb: Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, and it is really nice to to have somewhat control over that, you know. again being from payroll, being my last job, it was quite the opposite. I'm like, sorry, there's nothing I can do. Nothing I can do. but with this, it it is like, well, this job isn't right for you, but let's keep in contact. 'cause there might be something in the future.
Michael Jones: congratulations again on winning
Caleb: Thank you.
Michael Jones: Frontlines Rookie of the Year. tell
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: me how did that feel to win that award at the conference in front of all of your colleagues and peers?
Caleb: quite bizarre. it it w it was a great feeling, I won't lie. I'm a little bit of a crier, so I had a bit of a tear.
Michael Jones: All right.
Caleb: but you know, good tears of course.
Michael Jones: Of course.
Caleb: Yeah. but no, it was it was quite surreal because as I've said, I I I really didn't know what this role was gonna be, and I didn't know that I would be be successful really. so reflecting back over the last year or so, like i i it's really quite a surreal feeling. but it's really cool. I'm working from home today. but I have my trophy on my desk at at work in the office and yeah, it's really cool to to look at. It's very motivating actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Hmm. Yeah, I can imagine. And I was gonna ask you, you know, but w what does that win mean to you?
Caleb: obviously it it means a lot. and I think that it means that I I found something that and I actually said this in my speech at at conference, but it's actually something that like I've found that I want to become better at. something to continue to get better at. and I've done this first year and it's been great. but then what's next? I'm just like, okay, well, year two. But you know, it's back to square one. You know, what's next? yeah. So I guess if that answers your question.
Michael Jones: So it sounds like the the award was recognition of a great first year, a sign that you're
Caleb: Yes.
Michael Jones: you've done a good job. and and and now it means, Okay, what's next? I've got to follow that up, I've got to top that moving forwards.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause imagine if I did like half of what I did this year and this like that that would be really embarrassing, right? So now I've just got to one up myself.
Michael Jones: Sure, but yeah, you can't let the team down, you know, by not following through.
Caleb: Yeah, exactly.
Michael Jones: Did you know you were up for the award?
Caleb: I did. Yeah. I did. I won't lie. There was we we would regularly look at the numbers, especially
Michael Jones: Okay.
Caleb: the last few months of the financial year, just to see where it's all sitting. Yeah. Mm.
Michael Jones: Yeah. And I imagine it was quite competitive. what was your performance like that contributed to the win?
Caleb: Yeah, I I think and I don't want to sound like a broken record with this, because it does sound quite basic, but I really think like it's in those that activity. Like it I I think that recruitment actually has like a a pretty clear recipe on what it means to be successful, on paper, of course. so following that recipe, making those client calls, those candidate calls, those submissions, offers everything. that's that's kind of been my my success is is is just referring back to that and and picking up that damn phone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: A hundred percent, absolutely. And and Caleb, they're not they're not basics, they're fundamentals. And and you're absolutely right. Those
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: are the critical ingredients that go into building a successful business that make a
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: successful recruiter. so you've you've obviously done the volume of activity but matched with I imagine the quality activity. Because you've got to get the you
Caleb: Yes. Yeah.
Michael Jones: gotta get both, don't you?
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there there are a lot of people that would try out recruitment, they'd be like, I'm hitting my KPIs though. Like, why am I getting the outcome? and I think that it can even go the other way where you have fifty calls in a day but get nowhere. But if you have like five quality calls that lead somewhere, then that's actually probably more beneficial, really. So yeah, I agree. I know what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Given that we work in sales, we're typically measured by the outcomes, which is the revenue, the results, the financials. are
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: you comfortable sharing your personal best or what those financial results look like in terms of you winning the awards?
Caleb: I made a a personal well not personal, actual P B for the our agency, Regional Queensland. so the highest placement fee, which was really cool.
Michael Jones: Well that's
Caleb: and yeah, thank you. Yeah. And yeah, I I know that truly because w the the rookie award is measured off monthly average. so I achieved the highest of that, but I also achieved the highest in general, overall. So yeah,
Michael Jones: Hold on.
Caleb: I'm I'm very proud of those numbers. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Good on you. Good quality recruiter and a good biller. Wow, perfect. Love that. And then
Caleb: Yeah, that's it. That's what you want.
Michael Jones: is there anything else besides the activity and the the the fee performance that you think
Caleb: Right.
Michael Jones: helped you to get the award and be others that were up for it?
Caleb: Yeah. I think so. and I know the the top three of us we're we're all in different industries as well, so it makes it a little bit harder to to measure sometimes. But I think with what I always bring to the table in this role, but in life in general, is just to be authentically yourself. and I think as you mentioned before, Michael, I'm an ex retailer. so I understand retailers, but I can also relate to them, you know. a lot of retailers are most of the time a little bit more like, you know, loud, like a laugh, that kind of thing. And that's really the the type of person that I gel with too. so I think being authentically me, but what that also means is I'm always honest with my clients and candidates. and the regional Queensland market, can often be quite tough, I guess, in terms of what they're what brands are looking for in certain regions. and so I'm always honest with them and being like, Yeah, look, I I know exactly what you're saying, knowing what you're looking for. this is this person who isn't meeting A B and C. However, I know that they can bring a a strong skill set to your business. So it it's constantly having those honest conversations 'cause at the end of the day, if I didn't do that, they'd be like, well, Caleb's not talking to me. He has no one. Let's go to somebody else. I'll go to another recruiter. but yeah, I I keep them i engaged, I guess. And yeah, 'cause at the end the day if if they are decision maker or even a TA and head in a h head office, they're feeling the pressure, you know. So at least then they can provide that insight to to their business as well. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And that's part of the art of recruitment, like you said. It is providing the insights, it is
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: managing expectations, it's negotiating job specs and trying to solve problems
Caleb: Really?
Michael Jones: for people, as opposed to going out there to try and find the perfect person or the perfect job because you know it's a candidate short market, those those unicorns don't exist and you run the risk of overpromising
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: and under delivering otherwise.
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, love, love everything you're saying so far. So
Caleb: Yes.
Michael Jones: I'm sure you've heard this before, but the first year in recruitment is typically the hardest. You know, it gets easier after year one, which is good news for you to hear. But but what was your
Caleb: Okay.
Michael Jones: experience of the first year? Did you have those ups and downs?
Caleb: Yeah. definitely. Yep. and again it was something that I I I guess I hit the ground running quite quickly in the in the role and there there were a few roles that I luckily inherited but then also I I did yeah, I just had some good client calls and and things started moving quite quickly. and so I think it got to about actually December and I was still doing really well. and then I actually took some time off over Christmas. and I had nothing in the works for January. and it continued to be that way through all of January, which meant I didn't make any placements in January. And I think I made one or two in Feb. So it was a really high high to a really low low. And I struggled. I really struggled, I won't lie. and yeah, I didn't really know how to get out of what felt like a rut at that time.
Michael Jones: Yes.
Caleb: but what I've been learning and again what I say to people when they ask me this question i is always about the the long game as I've said and about that activity is, you know, even today I'll I've been making phone calls about things happening in October. you know, so it's all about thinking ahead, not about that quick win today, but what is the the bigger win that you can create for the the bigger picture, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yes. And this is the difficulty of sales, isn't it? It's you're only as good as your last month and you've got to maintain that level of
Caleb: No.
Michael Jones: consistent activity to build that pipeline. And what you do now typically impacts on what happens in two or three months' time. And and what you were describing
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: before about taking a holiday, which was, I'm sure, very well needed and and earned. But you know, it's something like taking time off can impact on the future pipeline. And then you scramble to get things back up and running again. and I imagine it felt very uncomfortable not not billing much for that period of time.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And it was it was quite concerning to be honest. Cause I I was a little bit like in my head about it then 'cause I'm like, did I just have a lucky streak or did I yeah, I don't know. It it was a hard one. and it's all in the mindset too, which is is something that I think is a very big thing in recruitment, but all about mindset and and it was just like flicking a switch one day. It's just like, Okay, well you've got to lock back in. Gotta turn it around. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, absolutely. Because the risk otherwise is if you get into this very panicked state of mind, you then start
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: bashing out poor quality activity. You know, if
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: you don't have any jobs on and you're worried about you haven't built, you then start just hunting and calling anybody, trying to get a job on, and you become a bit of a busy
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: fool. So you're right, you've got to
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: get your head back in the game, click in, focus.
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: And just know
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: that I'm I'm if I if I do what I know how to do, I will get
Caleb: Nice.
Michael Jones: this baby back on track.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I learned the hard way because I lived through that those couple of months and I'm like, I never want to be in that position again. Where I'm scrambling for a new role and scrambling for something, you know, I I wanna set myself up for success as best I can. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So in terms of what you what you learnt about that, what would you say you took away from that experience? Hopefully it wasn't never go on holiday. Because we do need a break every now and then, but you know.
Caleb: yeah. No, definitely not. Yeah. No, definitely not. And I actually have a great example of that is I actually went away recently, just before our conference, I went to New Zealand and I made three placements when I was away. Yeah, thank
Michael Jones: Congrats.
Caleb: you. Yeah, so I've certainly learnt from that. and To be honest, I and again I feel like a broken record, but I think the first thing is the the want and the drive. You really have to just truly have that hunger in this role to to get that. and I think that once again that's the difference between someone being successful and not successful is again you can be doing all the activity but not getting the outcome. But if you're hungry, you'll you'll get there, you have that drive, you'll find that the the solution. so I think having that and again also generating that activity and and hustling hard like that week before I I went away to New Zealand this time. yeah, I was working right up to the the eleventh hour just to make sure everything was tied up. yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, I can imagine. But then you earn your holiday. You could relax knowing that everything has, you know, happened behind the scenes and you made three placements. So it's supposed to show.
Caleb: Yeah. That's that's it. There was one time I was away and there I I thought once about work where it's like, I wonder how that interview went, but that was it. So I consider that a win. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.
Michael Jones: I I do too. That's that's very good discipline. And I think what you said before hustle, like I love that. I that I I look for hustle when I'm recruiting
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: people to become recruiters because I think that
Caleb: Wait.
Michael Jones: that hard work, that tenacity, that level of I wanna work really hard to get things done and make shit happen and I'm gonna take ownership of this and this is my baby and I'm gonna hit those goals. I think that's the
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: difference between an okay recruiter and amazing recruiter. And and you seem to have like hustle and drive and determination. That that comes through very clearly.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad. Yeah.
Michael Jones: So in your in your LinkedIn post, you talked about you know, work hard, play hard, keep going. I guess that kind of
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: links back to what we're talking about at the moment, but is that a a mantra of yours? Does that mean something in particular to you?
Caleb: does it's probably actually how I live my life. I I love to, you know, have a beverage on the weekends. I like to travel, I like nice things, and and so I know what I need to do to get there. and if I have a job that I I like and I'm passionate about, I'm like, okay, cool. Well there's two two parts of the puzzle. and yeah, keep going. I think that to to be honest, Michael, what really resonated with me with that was it has been a really big year and in a lot of good ways. And I think personally I have been through a lot this year too. So that's been something that I've just had to do this year is just to to wake up every day and make that conscious choice to to be like, look, you know what? Let's do it. So yeah, I guess that's where that comes from. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Well the results it for themselves. So, you know, well done. I'm a a a a great year. And it is about working hard. This this
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
Michael Jones: job is w hard work. I mean, I thought I worked hard in retail, but holy moly, it was next level in recruitment. So the difference is you're
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Jones: benefiting much more directly from the blood, the sweat, the tears you're investing in the recruitment job because you know, though those extra calls, that that extra candidate interview, that extra hour that I've invested into my business is making me more placements and earning me earning me more commission. So I guess that's the difference,
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: isn't it?
Caleb: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And it's not about working hard, it's about working efficiently and strategically and and and in a smart way. So I'm just curious
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: what what you learned along the way about being more efficient and working smarter, not necessarily just harder?
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. so every recruiter that will listen to this will probably cringe when I say this 'cause I think everyone struggles with it. Time blocking. I think time blocking is a game changer. and something that you should implement from day dot. I I think that I when I started I was so excited. I'm like, cool, now this is happening. they want to interview him. cool, they're offering him, you know. So I was jumping everywhere and then Things started to slip and I and then I I actually had a very candid conversation with my manager and he's like, Yeah, you go time block, like this is a mess. So let the hard way get. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Michael Jones: This is a difficult isn't it's such a busy job and it's so reactive. Things are happening all the time. But if you just get carried in the tide, you're just gonna get swept away. So if anyone's not familiar
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: with time blocking, explain that to me, Caleb, and what what does that look like in reality?
Caleb: Yeah, yeah. So I think having a plan for your day. I I what I do personally is write a list out for the day, what I need to follow up on, that kind of thing. But I'll then putting into my calendar, you know, two hours for V D is now, two hours for candidate calling is now, and then follow ups later in the day, that kind of thing. because and it's so tempting. I I think I mentioned it earlier, but You might even see an email notification come through from a a client, be like, I wanna read that, but you know, just hold off until until the end of the activity you're currently doing. Unless it's super urgent, of course. yeah. Yeah. but I think that's yeah.
Michael Jones: Of course. But this is the thing, we we we can get very easily distracted with an email,
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: a phone call, a message, and then before we know it, we're getting bogged down in stuff that isn't a priority or we're neglecting that really
Caleb: No.
Michael Jones: important task that we should be doing. So yeah, I'm
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: a huge fan of time blocking and the the the
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: agency that I worked in at the start of my career was very, very good at that time blocking and the sir the you know that you would do the same tasks at the same time on the same day each week. And it just helped me cover all my bases, spin all those plates and stay really focused. I'm glad to hear that you do that
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: 'cause I think it is pretty key.
Caleb: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Any other ways that you have implemented or or or learned to be more efficient in how you do things?
Caleb: Yeah, it's somewhat of a contentious one, if I'm honest. but I think within reason, utilizing your tools. So what I mean by that is I think AI at the moment is is something that recruiters should use to an extent. and the reason why I say that is I think the the most successful part about recruitment is the connections you make and the conversations you have. so if if AI can assist you with let's be honest, mundane admin,
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Caleb: then I think utilize that and that then makes a a fifteen minutes of you to write an email into five minutes that frees up that valuable time with your candidates and clients. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: That's right. You can then invest into having a conversation with a human being that strengthens a relationship or drives an outcome. So yeah, I I agree
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: with you. I think there's a huge opportunity to utilize tech and automation, but not
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: ignoring, as you say, recruitment's all about relationships.
Caleb: Mm. Yes, absolutely. Yep.
Michael Jones: So we've talked about the work hard bit. What does the the keep going bit mean to you?
Caleb: I think that it's just like it if it's a hard day it'll get better. You know, it it it's always gonna come back. If you're working hard, if you're putting in the the right the right emotions, right activity, that kind of thing, if you're having valuable conversations, it's gonna come back. So just keep going. You know, if it's a bad day, it's a bad day. Just leave it, shake it off, move on, keep going. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, you've to be pretty resilient in this gig and there's gonna be setbacks and disappointments, but you y
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Mm.
Michael Jones: you absolutely have to pick yourself up and keep on going. Is that something that comes naturally
Caleb: Yeah. Hm. Yeah.
Michael Jones: to you or have you had to work on that resilience piece?
Caleb: I think naturally it does come to me. And I didn't actually know that about myself until I started this job. just again, life happens. and reflecting on things I've been through in my life, I think that I am quite a resilient person and that now comes into this job where and and let's be real, there's been times where you're just like, this
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Caleb: is too hard.
Michael Jones: Fundy percent.
Caleb: Yeah, but it's just a moment. It's a moment in time. You know, move move on, keep going. Yeah, be resilient. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah. Love it. Tomorrow's a new day. So if you were to reflect back on year one in recruitment, what advice would you have for
Caleb: Mm.
Michael Jones: somebody just starting out in the industry to help them navigate the roller coaster ride and the ups and downs of the journey ahead?
Caleb: Yeah. I think question everything. I think that when I started and I had some really great resources, really great training. I had local training here in Brisbane, but then I also attended our head office training. And I was d I felt like this little shy Queenslander. I'm like, I can't I can't ask questions. But I realize now how silly that was because you know, if I have a question nine times out of ten, the other another person in that training has the same question. so there's that, but then that is also something to implement when you're on your desk too. there's been times when I started and to be honest, there's even still times recently where someone has said something or someone's tones off in a phone call and I've like let it go. and then it's come back to bite me later because I didn't actually explore that and and ask ask those questions. So that's what I'd say is just have that keep an open mind and and don't stop asking until you know everything you need to know.
Michael Jones: Yeah, I think that's brilliant advice. And I I I really do think questioning is the most vital skill that you need to master in recruitment. you won't learn if you don't ask questions. If things go unchecked or unsaid or unexplored, as you mentioned, it can bite you in the butt. And asking questions shows that you're interested and it builds relationships and you know, knowledge is power. So Yeah, I I think it's a very
Caleb: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jones: good bit of advice to people. Ask lots of questions, be really curious and soak up all this information.
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And and Caleb, does it get easier in year two?
Caleb: it's a hard point.
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Caleb: Yes and no. it might be a trick question. No. yes and no. Yes, because you are are so much more confident than you were a year ago. no, because you don't quite know with recruitment what's gonna happen. You know, next week could be a completely different market where no one wants to talk to you, no one has agency spend. Yeah, and then you you're in a completely different boat. I hope I'm not yeah.
Michael Jones: disappear or dry up, yeah.
Caleb: Yeah, that's right. And I really hope I'm not manifesting that for myself, by the way.
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Caleb: yeah, but it it can be it can be a lot easier and I think every conversation I still have till this day, I find this role some not easier, but I I know I'm getting more of a grasp on it every time. But yeah. It it can it can change on a dime, which which can hurt, which which can make it harder. Yeah. Hm.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. I I I think you're right, it gets easier because you're more confident and you're more knowledgeable about what you're doing, but it's never easy. It's never easy. Yeah.
Caleb: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good way to put it. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Well, you know, I think you've you've shared some fantastic insights with the group. I can see very clearly why you were awarded rookie of the year, not just because of your results, but because of your
Caleb: Thank you.
Michael Jones: potential, your personality, what you bring to the table. so yeah, that's been really great. I I'd like to start wrapping
Caleb: Yeah. Thank you.
Michael Jones: up the podcast with a couple of quick fire questions, if you don't mind. so
Caleb: Okay. Yeah, okay. See how I go.
Michael Jones: I think I know the answer to this question, but what's been the proudest
Caleb: huh.
Michael Jones: moments in your recruitment career to date.
Caleb: Yeah. definitely changing lives. I think that's been the definitely the proudest moment. and that's not just one moment which is amazing. That's been many moments over the last year and a half, year and a bit. So yeah. Yeah. Well that yeah, that too. That solidified that. So there you go. They go hand in hand. Yes. Yep.
Michael Jones: I thought you were gonna say the award win, but no, that's all right, no problem. There you go, that's the culmination of all of that great stuff. people can be peculiar. what's been the strangest candidate or client interaction you've had so far without naming names?
Caleb: Yeah. I I actually and I love this. This is one of my faves. I faced a candidate in a role. She was so happy. she ended up calling me Caleb the the little super duper trooper. yeah, I'm the I'm the super duper trooper. And
Michael Jones: Ooh, okay.
Caleb: yeah, that's right. Yeah, we actually have it written up on our board at in the office that Caleb is the super duper trooper. But I love that 'cause this candidate was you know, very very funny, very funny person and I really love that. and so not necessarily strange in a bad way, strange in a good way. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jones: There you go, love it. what's one thing that you wish you had known or known
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: how to do much earlier on in your career? Like if you could go back in time to Caleb at the beginning
Caleb: Okay.
Michael Jones: of his recruitment career, what's one thing you might say to him?
Caleb: Yeah, again, I think what I was saying earlier about questioning everything,
Michael Jones: Mm.
Caleb: and and keep digging until you know for sure, because as we know, when we're dealing with people, like anything can happen. But
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Caleb: as we as we know and as we go through our training and and everything, like we we should know exactly how a a candidate really is feeling through an entire process. so asking those those questions. qualifying questions every single time you make that connection with them. because again, I think in the beginning I got caught up in the excitement. sorry, this is supposed to be quickfire, isn't it?
Michael Jones: yeah.
Caleb: get get caught up in the excitement and and then I I'm like, yeah, cool. Like they're gonna accept and then they don't, you know? yeah. So just Yeah. Hundred, hundred percent. Yeah.
Michael Jones: And then maybe because we've made an assumption or we've ignored a red flag. Yeah. Yeah, that would be very good to go back in time and give yourself that advice. It would potentially
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael Jones: have avoided a lot of issues. Yeah, that's one. What's one habit that you recommend all recruiters develop
Caleb: Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jones: as quickly as possible, other than time blocking?
Caleb: Yes. morning lists morning lists religiously. I do one every single day. I've got one right here.
Michael Jones: Okay.
Caleb: and break it up into I I break one up into candidate, into client, into admin, and then block those
Michael Jones: shit super organized.
Caleb: yeah, accordingly, with my time blocking. so yeah. Absolutely. 'cause I know like I'll look at my desk every day and just write everything I need to do and I know nothing gets missed. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah, it's a very good system to put in place. What's the most underrated recruiter skill, in your opinion?
Caleb: ooh yes. yeah, it's a it's a good one. I think you know what? Really being able to read people, so someone's tone or someone's body language, things like that. it's it's something that I feel most people wouldn't really think that we have to do, but I do now it's kind of like I'm I'm a I'm a a a a crazy ex or something. Like when I when someone's like like hey how was your interview? Like, yeah, this is okay. I'm like, What does that mean? What does that tone mean? Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're reading between the lines and picking up on signals. Yeah.
Caleb: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that's the most underrated one to be honest. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Yeah. And I think that feeds into your your intuition, your spidey senses. Like, trust you, if something's feeling off, you need to ask
Caleb: Exactly.
Michael Jones: a question or follow up or what do you mean it was okay? Just just okay? Yes. I I hear ya. what's the best
Caleb: Yeah. Yes, that's right. Yeah. I want it to be excellent, you know. Yeah.
Michael Jones: career advice you've ever received? And that could be in recruitment or, you know, outside of that.
Caleb: Yeah, It's really basic and everyone's heard it every day. But it's the, you know, if you enjoy what you do, you never work a day in your life. And I think that I don't actually fully believe in that 'cause I think that every job has its fla flaws, you know, every job. It's it's the way we
Michael Jones: Mm.
Caleb: are. But I think it's it's truly important to find something that you're passionate about and that aligns to who you are as a human. and hence why I like recruitment. But also, I had that in my previous role. And again, nothing against that role. It just wasn't for me. And I didn't realise that at the time, but now I do realise that that it's just so important to be passionate about what you do.
Michael Jones: Hundred percent. Yeah. So what does the future look like for Caleb? What are the goals and aspirations you've set for yourself?
Caleb: Yeah. I I really as we've established enjoy my role now. and I think I I really do love the network that I'm a part of. so growing that, I am a I am a Queenslander, I am a retailer, so I'm right where I need to be. and I'm really excited to to continue to br grow this business and then in the future move move up in that business and progress and into more leadership roles. Yeah, once I've earned my stripes. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Nice.
Caleb: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Awesome.
Caleb: Yeah. And every role I've been in, I've always been progressed into that management role. So I know that's who I inherently are. yeah, just have to have to get this down pat first and and see how we go. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Of course. Yeah, yeah, I I reckon you're one to watch. So look forward to seeing your future
Caleb: No.
Michael Jones: career prospects flying. last question, I asked this to everybody, but what's something that people would be surprised
Caleb: Yes.
Michael Jones: to learn about you that you're comfortable with sharing, of course?
Caleb: Yeah. I I've already said it, but I think people are always shocked that I grew up on a farm. you know, I used to wake up at at four AM to feed the calves and shift the pipes and and that kind of thing. yeah, so I don't present that way anymore, but country boy at heart. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Country Boy Heart. There we go. You heard it here first. Awesome. Well, Caleb, I've really enjoyed chatting to you today. I really appreciate you giving me this time. And I think you've got some great habits and routines that you've developed that anybody listening would really benefit from putting into practice themselves. like I said,
Caleb: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jones: congratulations on your award win. I can see why. You know, it's not just the fees, it's the quality of the work and it's your potential that I imagine frontline recognised as well. And yeah, I look very much forward to seeing you continuing your recruitment career and leading a team and inspiring other people to follow your example. So, thank you again for this time today.
Caleb: Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Hmm.
Michael Jones: Excellent. Well look forward to our next episode. Thank you so much.
Caleb: Yes. Will too. Thank you very much, Michael. Cheers. Thanks guys.
Michael Jones: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Developing Experts Podcast. Be sure to join us again. And if you'd like to be a guest, put forward someone, or nominate a topic for discussion, then please reach out to me on social media or via email. I look forward to seeing you again next time.
