Mark Patterson: What's up, family? Thank you for joining me for another week, another round of the Convo Room Podcast. I have a new friend from LinkedIn here. Brian is in the room today. Thank you so much for joining me, bro.
Brian Honigman: Thanks for having me, Mark. I'm excited to chat.
Mark Patterson: take us to the beginning. Like how did you to where you are today? Where you have a thriving freelancer business? Like ⁓ how did you arrive here? I'm sure it didn't just start easily. Because you you talk so transparently in all of your newsletters and blogs so like just walk us through the beginning and how you made it here
Brian Honigman: Sure, and thanks so much for checking my stuff out. You make it all sound a lot better than it really is, but I appreciate the enthusiasm. The quick story of me is I worked in marketing for a variety of companies for the first few years of my career. So I worked at two startups, an agency, brand side, all doing marketing, social media, SEO, and then just like the grab bag of different stuff in. digital marketing broadly and enjoyed that and always had a strong connection to marketing. I think it's like very creatively interesting. And then I kept finding myself hitting a ceiling of like what I was allowed to do. And I felt myself ⁓ growing quicker than like, you know, the definition or the defined responsibilities of the role would allow me to, you know, go and take the next step, you know. you have to like stay in line with the structure of the teams and the company and stuff. And I don't know, maybe it was just young and impatient and whatever. But eventually I recognize that you need to build your reputation and visibility about your career outside of the office walls. So it's very important in a full-time salary position for there to be visibility on what your contributions are. But something that's even ⁓ also value valuable is having people in your industry more widely know what you're doing so that you are an attractive candidate to bring on and get hired and be considered for other opportunities. So something I did early on was I started writing on the side. So I was like writing for my, ⁓ the, the, ⁓ marketing agency I worked at at the times blog and I would write articles for that blog. And that led to writing. about marketing, marketing strategy, how social media is applicable to different business scenarios. And through that visibility of writing on a consistent basis, I was able to transition to freelance writing back in 2013. ⁓ And that was my foray into self-employment. And I've made many pivots along the way. don't consider my, you know, I do some freelance writing as part of my overall mix, but it's not how the main thing I would describe myself as anymore, even though I did describe myself as primarily that because was the sole focus for, I don't know, first two or three years. So yeah, it's been, it'll be 13 years coming up in June. And I've done all different kinds of things in that time when it comes to, you know, being a freelancer focused on primarily today, marketing support for companies and individuals in a variety of formats from consulting to training to teaching.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: ⁓ And then I also on the career development side support marketers and their careers with coaching as well as solopreneurs freelancers in a coaching capacity building out their business so that it's a sustainable career long pursuit not just like a quick stopgap for a few years if that's something people want to keep doing you know, you don't have to Stick with freelancing or traditional full-time employment unless you want to and I want people to have the option
Mark Patterson: That's right.
Brian Honigman: So that's kind of where I'm at today comparatively to where it started. There's been many ebbs and flows over the years.
Mark Patterson: So there's this concept that you talk about, like a push season. And I'm really curious for a lot of people who might find themselves, they might still be in their corporate role or they might have taken the leap, their midair parachute is out. Talk to the people that might find themselves in a push season and really what that looked like for you because... ⁓
Brian Honigman: Yeah. Thank
Mark Patterson: I know when I was reading it, I was reading one of the blogs that you wrote mentioning that, it really spoke to the, almost like the question that I ask in the back of my mind. It's almost like, why am I doing this? And the why in terms of like, okay, I'm putting in extra hours, I'm tired, I'm ready to go to bed. Or I think even trying to pursue. just opportunities in addition to your full-time job sometimes, it can feel just exhausting. But I love how human you spoke to it because it was just the acknowledgement of like, this is just what this season requires. And if you do it right, it won't have to always be like this. But I'm curious, what was your push season like? And like,
Brian Honigman: Yeah.
Mark Patterson: how did you navigate out of that? Or do you ever feel like you're out of it? You know what mean? But like, how did you navigate your way out of that to where you found yourself in a sustainable business model and not like this constant pulling, push and pull of like a feast and famine.
Brian Honigman: Fair question. Yeah, totally. Thank you for reading that piece. A push season as I'm defining it in our conversation and in that article is like that initial period of diving into self-employment or a side hustle, if you will. And it's that point where you're having to really ⁓ put all your effort in to break through, whether that's gaining visibility from a marketing standpoint, bringing on clients, really doing all the work to set up the foundation for your business so that it gets to a point where it feels stable. And as you call it out, it should be ideally a season. And a season can be weeks, it could be months, it could be the first year, feels like your push season, because it's not an overnight thing of like building on a successful podcast or getting multiple clients in your roster and having them follow a consistent process. ⁓ For me, the push season was how do I leverage the skills I have now to offer relevant services? So defining that. ⁓ Also bringing on a consistent flow of relevant clients that I can support and provide value to and will ding ding ding pay me? Like what is the process of like getting in, ⁓ you know, the right caliber of clients? Like I don't want anybody and. it's common challenge to like have too much work that's low paying. So you're like spread thin doing a million things, but not making enough to have this be sustainable. So for me, that was ⁓ in the early days, consistently publishing articles about ⁓ marketing, because it was a show versus tell moment. And that's something everyone should do in their own way, in the sense of putting your ⁓ ideas out there on a public forum. on a consistent basis so that people can, it's an opportunity for you to show versus tell people what kind of skills you have. So that could be videos, it could be writing newsletter, it could be being a guest on podcasts, it could be having your own podcast, it could be ⁓ being active in a Slack channel for your type of professional. ⁓ And it's a way to build that credibility and trust in what you offer, your expertise.
Mark Patterson: Okay.
Brian Honigman: So that was something I did. And then of course, bringing clients in the door. like figuring out what I'm offering, marketing, you know, my getting my expertise out there in consistent way and bringing clients in the door. How did I do that? ⁓ Leveraging my existing network and reaching out to folks on ⁓ LinkedIn primarily and saying, Hi, Sally, it's been a while. Hope the kids are going great. Have you seen this new app in social? I thought it would be relevant for you. I wanted to ping you and let you know that I've gone freelance and I'm now doing X, Y, and Z for these types of companies. If anything that sounds related to what I'm doing now comes across your desk, can you think of me? Can you pass this along to me? I'd love your help in like ⁓ flagging relevant opportunities. And in some cases I'd be like, hey, we following up on our conversation. Do you need any ⁓ support with content writing? ⁓ for the marketing team, I'd love to support you there. So some of that outreach to the people that already knew me, so it's like warm leads, if you will, potentially warm leads, some of it was like directly saying, I have these services and I'm offering them to you, is there a relevant fit at this time? But most of it was just letting people know like, hey, because no one cares about what you're doing, you have to indicate what's changing and kind of ping people. you know, some of that was, hey, if anything that I'm offering, you know, here's what I offered to these types of companies, these individuals, can you flag me and let me know? Because I only have so many, you know, so much time in the day, so much capabilities to like see all the opportunities out there. So that was helpful. It's like having a nice little team on your side. And not everyone's going to respond or do anything. But how many clients do you actually need? Right? Like I don't want 100 or I mean, I don't have the capacity to take on a billion clients. I'm only looking for like four at a time. So even if some of those messages responded with positive action, that's a win. ⁓ And then sometimes, no connection at all. I pitched like, I don't know, 100 ⁓ marketing agencies. And because my skill in industry is marketing, I said, hey, love what you're doing. ⁓ Three sentence pitch. Hi, Brittany, love what you're doing. I've written content for X, Y, and Z for these types of companies. Do you need continued support on your content programs given I already see you're investing in this area? Love to chat if that's relevant. And that resulted in getting some clients early on. But all of it is like hustle with intention of like, okay, how am I getting out there on a consistent basis that'll bring me good stuff long term and provide value for others in the short term? am I articulating? How am I articulating what I'm offering now so that people understand how they might engage me and what value I have to them? And just like putting yourself out there again and again and again to get to find those sources of, you know, relevant clients and so yeah, and guess what? It's all, you know, hustle with intention, but it's all muddy and messy. That's why it's a push season. It's like you're kind of, you know, throwing spaghetti at the wall in a couple areas and seeing what sticks and pivoting as you go. And then I'll stop talking, but you said, you know, how do you make sure it's just like a season is that you want to get to a point where there's some level of routine predictability and where your clients are coming from some clear structure and organization to what you offer, how you engage your clients so that it's not just like haphazard, you're stretched too thin, feast or famine. And I think a big one that would be most beneficial advice to folks in all different scenarios is like, how can you create kind of two tandem lanes? Like one, I'm working in the business and supporting clients and doing the work I'm paid for once I've landed those projects. And then the other lane is like working on the business. How am I continuing to build that flow of leads to my company, to my offerings as a freelancer? ⁓ So that once a project wraps up. I have other conversations and other opportunities already in motion and not waiting till you have a gap to be like, all right, I'm going to go hustle and like figure it out and apply to things. And you want them both happening in tandem so that you're working in the business and on the business.
Mark Patterson: I really want to double click on the business because I feel like for the perfectionists out there, you can work in the business all day, any day, every day. You're going to tinker on the website. You're going to have an idea on Friday at 8.59 p.m. ⁓ my gosh, I feel like I need a new logo and you're going to spend the whole weekend tweaking and tweaking and tweaking, doing things that quite honestly are completely inconsequential to actually building your business. What I, ⁓ another mentor of mine talked about income producing activity. And so I feel like ⁓ I really would love to double click on when it comes to you working on your business, what are the tried and true habits that you swear by? You talked about being consistently showing versus telling. ⁓ So like, what does that look like for you? And are there things that you do specifically, like weekly that you're like, this is how I work on the business.
Brian Honigman: So there's many different things here, aspects to focus in on, but one that just comes to top of mind that I work on weekly is every Friday I'm spending some time and I wish it was like a more clean specific habit of like I do this from three to four every Friday, but I try to like make it a habit by tying it to a day of the week and every Friday at some point for like probably an hour at least, work on some version of sales, business development, marketing. And it doesn't have to be a big action. I'm not like, you know, drafting, you know, researching companies and then drafting the pitch and then getting them on the phone and then pitching them the project. That's too heavy, too big. That would not be a sustainable way to bring relevant opportunities my way. But every Friday I'm like, okay, let's identify relevant opportunities. So that might be the activity. And that could be like looking at my network, seeing who's ⁓ asking for support on LinkedIn or I'm a really big LinkedIn user. ⁓ It could mean ⁓ following up with a previous client. ⁓ It could mean ⁓ looking for contract ⁓ engagements that are listed on some kind of marketplace or through like a recruiting agency that typically highlights like full-time roles, but sometimes there's contract or freelance positions there. And I throw my name in a bunch of different hats to see. where there's interest, I try to as best possible balance it between who are the companies and the individuals I've already worked with and stay in touch with them in genuine ways, not a transactional way, ⁓ so to follow up to hopefully get ⁓ repeat business with them, right? Because they already trust you, you already have a rapport going, it'll be kind of quote unquote an easier setup, you're more likely to land something else with them because you have this track record. ⁓ Hopefully you have to do good work each time you collaborate with them. And then some of it is like net new, I'm, you know, seeing ⁓ something industry interesting and saying, I'm to throw my hat in ring and see, and see what happens. ⁓ So that's something I'm like constantly ⁓ doing to keep that, you know, the two lanes I referenced before, like keep the interesting conversations and ⁓ potential projects flowing because you have no idea how long it's gonna take for someone that's kind of mildly interested in you to get all the way to the point of saying, here's your check, here's the sign, you we signed the contract on our end as well, let's get started. Those all take so much time and it's different, ⁓ different factors at play. that's a habit that's been quite helpful. I learned that from a PR consultant I like shared, not personally, but was also in the same coworking space as me and I'm like, Boop, stolen, love that. I was doing outreach and pitching myself and ⁓ all this stuff before, but I didn't have like the habit of doing it weekly and having a set day of the week. And like, you can get more granular on that. You can have it be more vague. You just have to figure out, this is kind of like the zooming out part. It's like, how do we make the important parts of our business a little bit more routine so that they're... not haphazardly done at the last minute. They don't always feel like this like chore. ⁓ So that you're making sure you're giving enough time to building out the business in a way that's as intentional as possible. We're trying to move from, you know, ⁓ crisis mode or hopping between contexts and multitasking to like, all right, how do we create a system here that's like predictable, a little bit more calm? Despite all these things, there's still going to be moments of uncertainty and ⁓ instability here and there, but we want to try our best through, you know, creating routines and structure and ⁓ setting like boundaries and guidelines for ourselves, like how we spend our workday, ⁓ how a project with a client is structured. Those are the kinds of little details that come compound over time to make this like an actual business. And I love that you said like, let's double click not on working in your business, but on it. This is the harder part for a lot of folks, ⁓ excuse me, when they're diving into self-employment, because you know your skill, you know your background, your experience, like, you know, if you're an HR professional, like, you know the nuances of performance reviews and hiring, firing and all this stuff, or if you're, ⁓ you know, a software developer, like that's your space, you know that, but you haven't necessarily gotten exposure or were never taught how to run your own business. how to be a business of one, if that's what you're going after. And that can be the tricky part because there's no one else managing you. You're not on a team. You're making a lot of these decisions on your own. ⁓ And it's a different kind of challenge. It's not harder or better or easier than ⁓ full-time salary position or starting a tech startup with 10 other people.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: It's just its own career path with its own pros and cons and nuances to navigate. you ⁓ have to like consciously seek out the ways to structure this in a capacity that's, you know, financially rewarding, sustainable and interesting and enjoyable. Part of this should be enjoyable if we're doing our own thing. Like this all can't be that bad feeling of work of like, ⁓ gotta go to work today. It's like.
Mark Patterson: ⁓ huh. Yes.
Brian Honigman: We all have those feelings. It's never going to 100 % go away. But if like all of the things you're doing when self-employed feel that way, it's like, hmm, I don't know if this is the right option then, you know, because some of it has to fulfill something and even if it's 10 % of what you're doing. So long-winded answer to say, ⁓ setting up structure, repeatable processes, thinking intentionally about what your next moves are and not being so focused in the business.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's so good. I found myself recently going through my calendar. Now, the thing is, I think there are two types of people in the world. And you might see what kind of person I am at the end of this example. But I think there are two types of people. There are people who, if you get a prescription from your doctor and they say, take this every day at nine o'clock, and there are people... who can wake up every morning and they're gonna take that medicine at nine o'clock and they're gonna do that thing. Then there are other people who in their mind, they know good and well. They need to do what they need to do at a certain time. But come heaven or high water, something or something, you're gonna get distracted. And you know you need to take your medicine at nine o'clock, but you just don't do it. so I think I'm definitely in the latter camp. ⁓ And so I've set up reminders on my calendar to orient me to certain days of the week because I think that is so key ⁓ to where it's almost like I condition myself even with my nine to five like especially with like managing people it's almost gotten to the point where ⁓ Because we're as a on a content and writing team where you're also like doing like project work ⁓ Just in comms, you know, it's just the work is different every day And so we kind of like set up this agreement one time with one of my, the young ladies that's on my team. We're like, okay, Tuesdays and Thursdays. That's our writing and review days. Like I'm not sending you a bunch of, I'm not popping in, you know, on a team's call. it's like, look, that's the day we know, just assign me the stuff. And then if I have not read it or reviewed it or written it, then we can hold each other accountable to that. Same with my, ⁓ same with my freelancing. Like now. just with the podcast, I've just become unwavering. It's almost like Friday nights, even if I'm turning it on and I feel like I need to get some enjoyment, I'm like turning on Chicago PD and ⁓ we're editing the episode or working on the newsletter just because I know like, ⁓ this is the day of the week where I do the thing. And that really has been the game changer. But I feel like I wonder if you felt this, I've gotten... very in tune with the rhythm of doing the work, like working in the business. But I wonder if there's a mindset thing, especially for early stage entrepreneurs, early stage creators, where you kind of have to talk yourself into the pitch sometimes, or you kind of have to figure out, yes, you know you can do good work, but... I don't know whether it's, I mean, maybe you're gonna be my therapist for the next 10 minutes. know, it's like, maybe there's like a fear of a no on the other side, or maybe there's some type of thing that's like fueling the procrastination. I don't know, but there, for some reason, like, you know, as an example, I made contact with ⁓ someone at a brand recently.
Brian Honigman: Thank ⁓
Mark Patterson: And was like, ⁓ I love the product. I use it, yada, yada, yada. You know, if you are looking for some content ideas, would love to connect. And she was like, ⁓ yeah, absolutely. And so I'm like, ⁓ yeah, I'll shoot you over a deck and yada, yada, yada. I have been himmin' and haulin' for about two weeks to send over, I don't know why. And I am the pitch deck king. I mean, I'm not trying to like toot my own horn, but there's one skill I have, is to make a pitch deck. But I don't know what it is, like sometimes, maybe for... the early stage folks, if I were to attribute it to one thing, maybe it feels like sometimes you do a lot of this potential engagement and then sometimes things just, they may not be a fit, they don't work. And it only takes one yes to find that new ideal client. But I wonder, do you navigate that as somebody, you're 13 years in, do you just, how do you overcome that kind of push and pull mentally, like the mindset behind pitching and going after those opportunities.
Brian Honigman: Yeah, that's a fabulous question because it's the harder part, right? It's like, don't, you know, running a blog post is step one, two, three. Mindset shifts are hard. And a lot of this moving from salary position to freelance or side hustle to it taking off is a lot of it's mindset shifts because like the rules have changed. The constraints you're up against or the guidance you once had will shift. ⁓ So I heard two things there. ⁓ One is like, where do get the motivation to be self-directed on different tasks? like, ⁓ how do you like organize this to make sure that you're not spread across too many things and you work on the priorities and you move forward as best possible, it's never gonna be perfect. Those are like two things I heard in there. One is like ⁓ getting clear on what motivates you for different types of tasks. Like sometimes it's like, if I do not, deliver this slide deck, then I will not be hitting the milestone, the three milestones that we agreed upon. This is the first one. If I don't hit these milestones on the agreed upon deadline, then I won't be paid. Sometimes it's a financial motivator. Other times, ⁓ it's the accountability of having someone else be waiting for you and you're holding up their time. Ooh, does that get me? I'm like, ⁓ I can fail at some side project or some nice to have endeavor.
Mark Patterson: Yeah.
Brian Honigman: But if there's someone else related to that project or like co-owners or collaborators, I am far more motivated to ⁓ move more quickly and make sure it's done. I don't want to negatively impact them. ⁓ Is this something that just brings you so much joy as part of your overall work mix? And the joy alone is motivation to do it because you ⁓ just want to use this skill. You want to like do that type of work. Is it outward recognition, getting recognized by another freelancer or your industry more broadly or clients? Is that your motivator? So it's not something you can quickly, in my opinion, like figure out overnight. It's like, what does keep me motivated on moving forward with different types of tasks? And how can I make sure those incentives are in place? Sometimes it's just naturally in place, like you're working on a client project. You are accountable to them. There's money involved. Like you don't want to mess that up. That one might be more straightforward, but if you're working on another project, it's like, ⁓ okay. How do I make sure that I'm putting incentives in place that keep me moving forward? I'm working on a bigger project right now that ⁓ I kept putting off because I know it's, ⁓ you know, really intellectually challenging. It's going to be time consuming. And ⁓ I've worked on it in one iteration years ago, and I was like, got to revisit that. I've come to it again recently, and I've made such ⁓ more structured incremental progress on the task this time around because I hired someone else for their support, for their ⁓ expertise on this project. So doing some delegation. And I have the feeling of accountability. I'm like, okay, cool.
Mark Patterson: ⁓ no.
Brian Honigman: not only can I lean on their skills, this is their primary expertise here, ⁓ but my contributions, I can't dilly dally around and think on this and keep it on the nice to have to do list forever because I'm paying them. So I'm accountable to myself here and ⁓ this is their time too. So finding your motivation and then I promise the quick on this is like when, especially in the push season and it'll come up in different seasons as well as like you have all these tasks. You feel like the weight of the whole business is on your chest sometimes. Something that helps is like really thinking through how long do all these different types of tasks and commitments take on average. If you don't know, track it. Use a tracking tool. Use a simple stopwatch on your phone to say, every time I sit down to build out a slide deck or prep a customer brief, takes this long. With that knowledge in mind, ⁓ you can better map out and scope out your capabilities on your calendar. Like I only have the capability to take on two coaching clients per day. And then that leaves me some time for admin work, some time for this, for that. ⁓ So that you are creating your schedule because you're in command here. You're creating your schedule with your capacity in mind. So you're not taking on too much and like
Mark Patterson: Yeah.
Brian Honigman: doing the overwhelm. That's where the feast and famine stuff comes into play, where you're like working on the most and then you don't have time to do other important tasks that feel less timely. ⁓ So yeah, that's how I make sure and I recommend others think through is like, okay, what is my capacity in a given week and what's actually reasonable for me to take on so I can make thoughtful progress on, you know, client engagement or anything else I have going on.
Mark Patterson: Hmm.
Brian Honigman: So motivation and scheduling your capacity can really help to move things forward in an incremental way.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm. I want to pivot just a little bit when it comes to ⁓ going back to the idea of showing versus telling and getting published. Because I feel like a lot of people, especially corporate folks, they might be seeing this conversation on LinkedIn at some point, and they're in the building, and they're like, okay, I need to figure out how am I going to start sharing my expertise? building community outside of these four walls or what have you, getting published, feel like is something that might be in their mind. And I feel like you've definitely, you've earned your stripes. If I'm not mistaken, I think you yourself have been published and you've taken other folks' stories and gotten them into publications. So talk to me about the anatomy of a good story and a good...
Brian Honigman: Yeah.
Mark Patterson: pitch because I feel like everybody might feel like they have a story to tell. But when you are actually somebody who's working in media, you're like, look, we've seen the story a thousand times or perhaps there are things that you might be looking for and you might be on the hunt for. So, you know, for all of those corporate preneurs, all of those ⁓ side hustlers that are trying to find their way into, especially legacy media still. or the bigger names per se in media, talk to them and tell them how they should approach going about securing those opportunities.
Brian Honigman: Yeah, I mean, in terms of the story you're trying to tell, thinking about what's, you know, if you have a topic in mind, what's the relevancy to the editor you're pitching, the reporter you're pitching, the publication, like it needs to be a sound match in that capacity. You need to be a lot more concise than you think in terms of framing up the story. I think a lot of people drone on and on and on about a concept and that can ⁓ indicate you don't have the clear argument down. ⁓ Thinking through ⁓ the relevancy to the person you're pitching and the publication obviously needs to have some connection to what you're trying to advocate for your ideas, your company, what have you. ⁓ Making sure that you have a concise clear argument. And then what's the unique factor ⁓ so that it's just not the same generic story we've heard over and over and over again. If you're like pitching a story about AI, for example, it's been so widely covered, you have to make sure that there's some angle that makes sense to you that's ⁓ special. ⁓ That they haven't already widely covered with that publication. this is starting to feel as I'm talking, I'm saying like, this is trying to feel like a mix between the pitch and the story. ⁓ It's not easy, but super possible. I'm just some guy. ⁓ And with with pitching in general, ⁓ I have like a kind of four sentence kind of ⁓ structure to a pitch and and as you're formulating it, ⁓ you want to super quickly lead with
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: the headline and why it's timely now. It doesn't need to be a breaking news story, but there needs to be some timely element to what you're to the person. A sentence or two on some of the details to ground it and like, okay, it's not just like a concept. I some thinking to this argument with kind of one or two, maybe three points around.
Mark Patterson: Hmm.
Brian Honigman: as like evidence, as a structure to how I'm gonna build this out. You don't have to have the whole story written in some cases. Some cases they do want the story already written, but ⁓ then you wanna introduce yourself very concisely. Like, why is it, why are you the person to be telling this? Maybe your title, your company you work at, ⁓ projects you've worked on. Why do you have the expertise to tell this story? ⁓
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: So that's pretty helpful. And whenever possible, do you have one or two quick examples you can reference of other writing you've done on this subject or just in general from the most reputable places you've written for to date to show them you not only have expertise in this area, if you don't, if you haven't written about this subject before, that's okay. They do want to see that you have the ability to write, to write a concise, interesting, you know, well written story ⁓ that makes sense for their context. So moving away from like, you know, I kind of mixed the pitch in the story. And I just talked about kind of the dynamics of a pitch a little bit. Part of it is you're going to have to pitch a lot, especially in the beginning. ⁓ It's not like you just automatically get everything approved at some point, unless you're like, you know, the super mega famous or something. ⁓ I pitch all the time, even to editors where I'm a contributing writer. who like I'm approved and I guess respected and able to write for them and they'll still say, no pass on that. And sometimes with clarity, sometimes they'll say something like, ⁓ that's not at the right expertise level for our audience. Thank you though. And I'm like, okay, I've written so many articles for here. What do I do now? So recognizing that it's a, meet every pitch needs to be quality, but it is a quantity game. Like it's gonna, you're gonna get a lot of rejection in the process. And then my final point here to be thinking about when trying to get into a bigger name in your industry or just more holistically, ⁓ I like to think of a ladder approach, meaning try to start writing first for yourself on places where there's no gatekeeper, like a Substack on LinkedIn, wherever, Medium, ⁓ and get your practice going there. That's kind of like ladder rung, the first rung of the ladder.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: The next is like, is there smaller publications, smaller news sites that are a little bit less competitive, but still have an editor or some kind of editorial oversight on who they decide to get, who they choose to get published and try to pitch stories there, try to pitch an article there. That way you're slowly building a credibility of different clips that you've gotten from a site that is still like well vetted and has editorial control over their publishing.
Mark Patterson: and
Brian Honigman: but might not be as competitive as the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times or some other mainstream publication. You want to work your way up. And then the point is from there, it's like writing on your own. The next ladder rung is like a smaller but known in your industry publication. And then the next ladder up is like the bigger names in your industry or wider. It'll be helpful to have credible clips from that second rung of the ladder. in your wheelhouse in your portfolio so you can reference them. It's pretty important to indicate that you've been published somewhere where it wasn't just self directed, like that someone else had to say, yes, I approve that as a good idea. And maybe they help edit, they edit it for you or what have you. So I to think of it like the latter approach, you're working your way up and to not necessarily unless you're like, have this really fantastic idea and you're the best writer ever not to start trying to get into the New York Times as your first article or try to get into Fast Company as your second piece. It's not likely to land as a pitch.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm. Now for, and this is specifically the early stage creators, like I think ⁓ one, your experience as a freelancer, but then also somebody who has, I think we'll just categorize it in the vernacular that a lot of people use, brand deals with ⁓ other, let's say writing publications or things like that. Talk to people about the range that they should be negotiating with. in mind ⁓ because I think that something I've learned through episodes this season is that the compensation for people who are, especially they're new and they're green, think one, we all can do the pitch to work with the brand. Hey, would you mind a gifting collab? And I think those are absolutely great. But for the people that are trying to like find proof of concept with their side hustle or their creator business, especially if they're thinking like, okay, hey, I'm working and I'm making this much money as you know, this corporate in this corporate role and I'm trying to show my expertise and make money by doing this on the side, what should they have in mind in terms of an expectation. Like one, because I really don't even have that much ⁓ experience on the writing side per se. So I'm interested what you would say. But ⁓ one, when it comes to like doing brand deals, as we'll call them with publications, but then also as a freelancer, when you're trying to, because I think you spoke to this point earlier, when you're trying to break out of the cycle of having so much low paying work. And I feel like lot of freelancers sometimes are a little bit afraid to kind of bump up the price tag because they're afraid they might not have the demand and have fewer clients, which technically I feel like is the unlock to do more quality work. But at the end of the day, I want to hear your opinion. So start with like the contributing and being able to. do those types of brand deals with publications and then like zoom out when it comes to like freelancing, like what should a new freelancer be okay with in terms of commanding in terms of a rate ⁓ and then being comfortable like sliding up that scale and when it's the right time to do that. I'm giving you a loaded question, ⁓ but you're the pro, you got it.
Brian Honigman: Sure. ⁓ When it comes to writing, specifically like paid contributions ⁓ as a regular contributor or one-off, ⁓ from what I've seen, the kind of pricing range, especially it's been, you know, over many years, I've been writing for sites, sometimes for free. Sometimes I did a ton of writing for free. even from publications in the early days to break through. So just want to be transparent on that. But a lot of publications, and again, I'm talking specifically publications would pay anywhere from like $100 a piece to I think the most that was paid per piece was like $850 for one article.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Brian Honigman: You are not going to and surely that's this just my experience. There's different, you know, not like a full time Vanity Fair writer, like I'm sure they have a living wage. But as an outsider, leveraging these as a part of my mix. ⁓ Ultimately, the writing for these publications is not an income generator. It's the visibility you get from other people getting to
Mark Patterson: you
Brian Honigman: read your insights, learn from you. It's that show versus tell moment, plus the credibility of a known institution. Like I can publish on LinkedIn and I have my own newsletter and I think that's great. But if someone's coming to me for the first time, and of course, like I do want to own some of the things I'm putting out there, but if someone's coming to me for the first time and they see an article from me in Fast Company, or they see an article on my newsletter, Career Freelancer, and they have no idea who Brian Honigman is, they're likely to trust Fast Company first as the... kind of if they had to pick between the two, because they're likely more familiar with it. And there's just like a credibility factor because not everybody can write for all these different publications. ⁓ So like those are the benefits that you get outside of ⁓ compensation. it really varies. It's kind of specific. I'd say like freelance writing, like a fair rate is anywhere from a dollar to a dollar fifty an hour, ⁓ an hour, sorry, a dollar.
Mark Patterson: Yes, yes.
Brian Honigman: $1.50 per word, per word. It's Friday, my apologies. But yeah, on a per word basis and then other ways that I, and that was for writing for different, not publications for companies in producing content for them. But the space has already changed so much in recent times. Something else I did to like ⁓ earn more revenue from writing in the early days. And this again, this is for companies, not publications.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: was packaging multiple pieces together so that I'm making $3,000, $5,000 ⁓ from a group of articles, from a group of resources, and ⁓ giving the client somewhat of a discount because they're buying in bulk upfront as part of a package. And that's a conversation that I always have is like packaging up your offering. So you have a process you follow. the... Workload is sustainable for you and it's really clear for the client what they're getting from you ⁓ So yes some nuances there, you know again, I just would my advice is like you're not gonna make much money ⁓ from contributing to publications and that shouldn't be unfortunately, it's just the reality is like it's not gonna be the ⁓ outcome the outcome is being able to access large audience to share your great ideas, get that credibility trust, and hopefully that converts into something good for you. ⁓ It has for me and more I've made so much. ⁓ I've gotten so much benefit from writing, I've written thousands of articles at this point over my career and not over time. Each piece by piece has like ⁓ put me in a different position than I would be if I didn't have those credibility markers. And then if I hadn't put my ideas out there for people to think on, either ignore it or resonate with it and come to me to hire me for something. ⁓ And then in terms of like just pricing in general, ⁓ it's hard to talk so broad about because it's like, we pricing a graphic design project? Are we pricing a three month AI rollout? Are we pricing ⁓ drafting emails? What I will say is like, especially in the early days, I cannot recommend enough befriending other freelancers that do similar work to you. Competition isn't the same as we view it in the American economy amongst businesses for freelancers. Like there's enough pieces of the pie to go around. So what I recommend is in the early days, partnering up with others who you can commiserate with and feel comfortable and honest enough with to say, Hey, what are you charging? What do you see as the the average rate here and are we able to hit that or go above and beyond it by articulating the wonderful value we offer to clients and making sure that it's clear ⁓ what's special about our approach, what's unique about your expertise, what kind of results can you ⁓ provide them so that you in fact feel confident ⁓ in pitching yourself whatever price point. So I think that would be my advice on pricing is like, don't just try to figure this out on your own and just do Google searches or like look at blog posts that are probably incorrect and go talk to real people in the space and see what they're charging. See how clients are reacting to their work. And then it's not just like, you know, grabbing information from them and it's a one way street. This is a relationship you should aim to get, ⁓ aim to share what you're up against and what you've been thinking about research you've done so you can come together and figure it out. I know for a fact, I am not a full-time creator in the sense of like, I'm not developing TikToks and being paid for it. I know even some of the big creators, they have management to help with all the pricing stuff, but at different stages of their career, even like the household names, they've talked with other creators to see what's working, what's not working, including where you're charging, where you're not charging. And a dialogue is where...
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: ⁓ and some openness to a certain circle of folks that you find for yourself and who seek you out is how you get to ⁓ initially getting paid what you're worth, understanding what other people are charging so you're not left behind or way overcharging and missing out on work for no reason just by making some intentional shifts.
Mark Patterson: So before we go, I would love to get the best advice and the worst advice that you've gotten as a freelancer. And then make sure you let everybody know where they can find you and follow you ⁓ for all things for ⁓ one, just I think you're in the trenches laying the breadcrumbs for everybody to find success in their journeys as freelancers. ⁓ But ⁓ look, I I hope everybody who's listening to this that they will take a minute and just pick an article because literally it could be Russian roulette. It's all good stuff. ⁓ one, best advice, worst advice, and then how people can follow you.
Brian Honigman: Well, you're sweet. Thank you for reading my pieces when you see them. ⁓ I think some of the best advice is just to start before you're ready. Like I know this whole time in our conversation, I've been like the intentional plan. There's some aspects of doing your own thing that you have no experience in. And you have to learn as you go. You can take a class, you can ask a colleague, but... You're never going to be in all aspects of doing your own thing when there's so many nuances at play. You're not going to be ready and perfectly equipped to handle it all at first. But the best thing you can do is just start, explore and start exploring, experimenting with something new. You never know, you know, an interest you have professionally, how it's going to pan out for your business and turn into something really exciting, or you explore it a little bit. You fail a few times, you keep exploring it and you're like, hey, this actually is not for me. I don't want to do this. It's not interesting or it doesn't pay enough or whatever it is. And that's okay too. But ⁓ the ability to get kind of stuck over analyzing over, know, investing in all the steps and the process is like sometimes just have to get started to get the ball rolling and just like incremental progress is way better than sitting there and planning forever.
Mark Patterson: Hmm?
Brian Honigman: terms of like the worst. ⁓ so I wouldn't say it's advice, but feedback that stung a little bit from a friend who I still love to this day and isn't watching this. ⁓ I remember in the earlier days of freelancing, ⁓ they were like, what's the thing you love the most right now? And I said, I love working remotely. I am so more energized and excited to dive into the work. And I just feel like this is like the remote work. as part of my freelancing is a really key unlock and benefit for me. And they were like, that's it. That's what you care about the most. That's, and then they didn't really say why they had that reaction. But my reading between the lines is they wanted me to say, ⁓ I'm, you know, I'm acting on my passion for marketing strategy. They wanted me to say something, you know, more stereotypical or more so about like the passion for work. And I do really like the work I spend my time on. like helping people in coaching. I like working on marketing stuff. I like the creative aspects. And like the things I love most have changed and evolved over time. But hearing that criticism, I was just like, this is what I like. And I've designed my own career for what makes sense for me. And the lesson there is like, what works for you doesn't work for me sometimes. And vice versa. The best part about self-employment is you get to figure out the aspects. that make up your fulfilling career, because your definition of success, fulfillment, financial stability is unique. Surely we have things in common, but we all ⁓ get to the luck and the privilege here is like you get to figure it out on your own terms and don't let other people define it for you.
Mark Patterson: Thank 100%. So where can people follow you and make sure they stay plugged in on all
Brian Honigman: Yeah, the easiest place is my website. It's www.brian.com. And I have a newsletter that's on LinkedIn or Substax. You can search for it on either place. It's Career Freelancer. And that is a weekly newsletter where I talk about some of the subjects we hit on today where I'm musing on the different lessons and ⁓ the pros and cons to navigate a freelancing so that it's a career long pursuit and not just something that you start and fizzles out and becomes unenjoyable. My goal is to help you realize that freelancing is just as viable of a career path as any other one out there. So that's a career freelancer on LinkedIn and Substack.
Mark Patterson: Thank you so much for your time Brian you're welcome in the combo room anytime and I can't wait When I'm scrolling on LinkedIn see the next post bro. Have a good one
Brian Honigman: Thanks Mark.
Brian Honigman: Thanks for having me, Mark. I'm excited to chat.
Mark Patterson: take us to the beginning. Like how did you to where you are today? Where you have a thriving freelancer business? Like ⁓ how did you arrive here? I'm sure it didn't just start easily. Because you you talk so transparently in all of your newsletters and blogs so like just walk us through the beginning and how you made it here
Brian Honigman: Sure, and thanks so much for checking my stuff out. You make it all sound a lot better than it really is, but I appreciate the enthusiasm. The quick story of me is I worked in marketing for a variety of companies for the first few years of my career. So I worked at two startups, an agency, brand side, all doing marketing, social media, SEO, and then just like the grab bag of different stuff in. digital marketing broadly and enjoyed that and always had a strong connection to marketing. I think it's like very creatively interesting. And then I kept finding myself hitting a ceiling of like what I was allowed to do. And I felt myself ⁓ growing quicker than like, you know, the definition or the defined responsibilities of the role would allow me to, you know, go and take the next step, you know. you have to like stay in line with the structure of the teams and the company and stuff. And I don't know, maybe it was just young and impatient and whatever. But eventually I recognize that you need to build your reputation and visibility about your career outside of the office walls. So it's very important in a full-time salary position for there to be visibility on what your contributions are. But something that's even ⁓ also value valuable is having people in your industry more widely know what you're doing so that you are an attractive candidate to bring on and get hired and be considered for other opportunities. So something I did early on was I started writing on the side. So I was like writing for my, ⁓ the, the, ⁓ marketing agency I worked at at the times blog and I would write articles for that blog. And that led to writing. about marketing, marketing strategy, how social media is applicable to different business scenarios. And through that visibility of writing on a consistent basis, I was able to transition to freelance writing back in 2013. ⁓ And that was my foray into self-employment. And I've made many pivots along the way. don't consider my, you know, I do some freelance writing as part of my overall mix, but it's not how the main thing I would describe myself as anymore, even though I did describe myself as primarily that because was the sole focus for, I don't know, first two or three years. So yeah, it's been, it'll be 13 years coming up in June. And I've done all different kinds of things in that time when it comes to, you know, being a freelancer focused on primarily today, marketing support for companies and individuals in a variety of formats from consulting to training to teaching.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: ⁓ And then I also on the career development side support marketers and their careers with coaching as well as solopreneurs freelancers in a coaching capacity building out their business so that it's a sustainable career long pursuit not just like a quick stopgap for a few years if that's something people want to keep doing you know, you don't have to Stick with freelancing or traditional full-time employment unless you want to and I want people to have the option
Mark Patterson: That's right.
Brian Honigman: So that's kind of where I'm at today comparatively to where it started. There's been many ebbs and flows over the years.
Mark Patterson: So there's this concept that you talk about, like a push season. And I'm really curious for a lot of people who might find themselves, they might still be in their corporate role or they might have taken the leap, their midair parachute is out. Talk to the people that might find themselves in a push season and really what that looked like for you because... ⁓
Brian Honigman: Yeah. Thank
Mark Patterson: I know when I was reading it, I was reading one of the blogs that you wrote mentioning that, it really spoke to the, almost like the question that I ask in the back of my mind. It's almost like, why am I doing this? And the why in terms of like, okay, I'm putting in extra hours, I'm tired, I'm ready to go to bed. Or I think even trying to pursue. just opportunities in addition to your full-time job sometimes, it can feel just exhausting. But I love how human you spoke to it because it was just the acknowledgement of like, this is just what this season requires. And if you do it right, it won't have to always be like this. But I'm curious, what was your push season like? And like,
Brian Honigman: Yeah.
Mark Patterson: how did you navigate out of that? Or do you ever feel like you're out of it? You know what mean? But like, how did you navigate your way out of that to where you found yourself in a sustainable business model and not like this constant pulling, push and pull of like a feast and famine.
Brian Honigman: Fair question. Yeah, totally. Thank you for reading that piece. A push season as I'm defining it in our conversation and in that article is like that initial period of diving into self-employment or a side hustle, if you will. And it's that point where you're having to really ⁓ put all your effort in to break through, whether that's gaining visibility from a marketing standpoint, bringing on clients, really doing all the work to set up the foundation for your business so that it gets to a point where it feels stable. And as you call it out, it should be ideally a season. And a season can be weeks, it could be months, it could be the first year, feels like your push season, because it's not an overnight thing of like building on a successful podcast or getting multiple clients in your roster and having them follow a consistent process. ⁓ For me, the push season was how do I leverage the skills I have now to offer relevant services? So defining that. ⁓ Also bringing on a consistent flow of relevant clients that I can support and provide value to and will ding ding ding pay me? Like what is the process of like getting in, ⁓ you know, the right caliber of clients? Like I don't want anybody and. it's common challenge to like have too much work that's low paying. So you're like spread thin doing a million things, but not making enough to have this be sustainable. So for me, that was ⁓ in the early days, consistently publishing articles about ⁓ marketing, because it was a show versus tell moment. And that's something everyone should do in their own way, in the sense of putting your ⁓ ideas out there on a public forum. on a consistent basis so that people can, it's an opportunity for you to show versus tell people what kind of skills you have. So that could be videos, it could be writing newsletter, it could be being a guest on podcasts, it could be having your own podcast, it could be ⁓ being active in a Slack channel for your type of professional. ⁓ And it's a way to build that credibility and trust in what you offer, your expertise.
Mark Patterson: Okay.
Brian Honigman: So that was something I did. And then of course, bringing clients in the door. like figuring out what I'm offering, marketing, you know, my getting my expertise out there in consistent way and bringing clients in the door. How did I do that? ⁓ Leveraging my existing network and reaching out to folks on ⁓ LinkedIn primarily and saying, Hi, Sally, it's been a while. Hope the kids are going great. Have you seen this new app in social? I thought it would be relevant for you. I wanted to ping you and let you know that I've gone freelance and I'm now doing X, Y, and Z for these types of companies. If anything that sounds related to what I'm doing now comes across your desk, can you think of me? Can you pass this along to me? I'd love your help in like ⁓ flagging relevant opportunities. And in some cases I'd be like, hey, we following up on our conversation. Do you need any ⁓ support with content writing? ⁓ for the marketing team, I'd love to support you there. So some of that outreach to the people that already knew me, so it's like warm leads, if you will, potentially warm leads, some of it was like directly saying, I have these services and I'm offering them to you, is there a relevant fit at this time? But most of it was just letting people know like, hey, because no one cares about what you're doing, you have to indicate what's changing and kind of ping people. you know, some of that was, hey, if anything that I'm offering, you know, here's what I offered to these types of companies, these individuals, can you flag me and let me know? Because I only have so many, you know, so much time in the day, so much capabilities to like see all the opportunities out there. So that was helpful. It's like having a nice little team on your side. And not everyone's going to respond or do anything. But how many clients do you actually need? Right? Like I don't want 100 or I mean, I don't have the capacity to take on a billion clients. I'm only looking for like four at a time. So even if some of those messages responded with positive action, that's a win. ⁓ And then sometimes, no connection at all. I pitched like, I don't know, 100 ⁓ marketing agencies. And because my skill in industry is marketing, I said, hey, love what you're doing. ⁓ Three sentence pitch. Hi, Brittany, love what you're doing. I've written content for X, Y, and Z for these types of companies. Do you need continued support on your content programs given I already see you're investing in this area? Love to chat if that's relevant. And that resulted in getting some clients early on. But all of it is like hustle with intention of like, okay, how am I getting out there on a consistent basis that'll bring me good stuff long term and provide value for others in the short term? am I articulating? How am I articulating what I'm offering now so that people understand how they might engage me and what value I have to them? And just like putting yourself out there again and again and again to get to find those sources of, you know, relevant clients and so yeah, and guess what? It's all, you know, hustle with intention, but it's all muddy and messy. That's why it's a push season. It's like you're kind of, you know, throwing spaghetti at the wall in a couple areas and seeing what sticks and pivoting as you go. And then I'll stop talking, but you said, you know, how do you make sure it's just like a season is that you want to get to a point where there's some level of routine predictability and where your clients are coming from some clear structure and organization to what you offer, how you engage your clients so that it's not just like haphazard, you're stretched too thin, feast or famine. And I think a big one that would be most beneficial advice to folks in all different scenarios is like, how can you create kind of two tandem lanes? Like one, I'm working in the business and supporting clients and doing the work I'm paid for once I've landed those projects. And then the other lane is like working on the business. How am I continuing to build that flow of leads to my company, to my offerings as a freelancer? ⁓ So that once a project wraps up. I have other conversations and other opportunities already in motion and not waiting till you have a gap to be like, all right, I'm going to go hustle and like figure it out and apply to things. And you want them both happening in tandem so that you're working in the business and on the business.
Mark Patterson: I really want to double click on the business because I feel like for the perfectionists out there, you can work in the business all day, any day, every day. You're going to tinker on the website. You're going to have an idea on Friday at 8.59 p.m. ⁓ my gosh, I feel like I need a new logo and you're going to spend the whole weekend tweaking and tweaking and tweaking, doing things that quite honestly are completely inconsequential to actually building your business. What I, ⁓ another mentor of mine talked about income producing activity. And so I feel like ⁓ I really would love to double click on when it comes to you working on your business, what are the tried and true habits that you swear by? You talked about being consistently showing versus telling. ⁓ So like, what does that look like for you? And are there things that you do specifically, like weekly that you're like, this is how I work on the business.
Brian Honigman: So there's many different things here, aspects to focus in on, but one that just comes to top of mind that I work on weekly is every Friday I'm spending some time and I wish it was like a more clean specific habit of like I do this from three to four every Friday, but I try to like make it a habit by tying it to a day of the week and every Friday at some point for like probably an hour at least, work on some version of sales, business development, marketing. And it doesn't have to be a big action. I'm not like, you know, drafting, you know, researching companies and then drafting the pitch and then getting them on the phone and then pitching them the project. That's too heavy, too big. That would not be a sustainable way to bring relevant opportunities my way. But every Friday I'm like, okay, let's identify relevant opportunities. So that might be the activity. And that could be like looking at my network, seeing who's ⁓ asking for support on LinkedIn or I'm a really big LinkedIn user. ⁓ It could mean ⁓ following up with a previous client. ⁓ It could mean ⁓ looking for contract ⁓ engagements that are listed on some kind of marketplace or through like a recruiting agency that typically highlights like full-time roles, but sometimes there's contract or freelance positions there. And I throw my name in a bunch of different hats to see. where there's interest, I try to as best possible balance it between who are the companies and the individuals I've already worked with and stay in touch with them in genuine ways, not a transactional way, ⁓ so to follow up to hopefully get ⁓ repeat business with them, right? Because they already trust you, you already have a rapport going, it'll be kind of quote unquote an easier setup, you're more likely to land something else with them because you have this track record. ⁓ Hopefully you have to do good work each time you collaborate with them. And then some of it is like net new, I'm, you know, seeing ⁓ something industry interesting and saying, I'm to throw my hat in ring and see, and see what happens. ⁓ So that's something I'm like constantly ⁓ doing to keep that, you know, the two lanes I referenced before, like keep the interesting conversations and ⁓ potential projects flowing because you have no idea how long it's gonna take for someone that's kind of mildly interested in you to get all the way to the point of saying, here's your check, here's the sign, you we signed the contract on our end as well, let's get started. Those all take so much time and it's different, ⁓ different factors at play. that's a habit that's been quite helpful. I learned that from a PR consultant I like shared, not personally, but was also in the same coworking space as me and I'm like, Boop, stolen, love that. I was doing outreach and pitching myself and ⁓ all this stuff before, but I didn't have like the habit of doing it weekly and having a set day of the week. And like, you can get more granular on that. You can have it be more vague. You just have to figure out, this is kind of like the zooming out part. It's like, how do we make the important parts of our business a little bit more routine so that they're... not haphazardly done at the last minute. They don't always feel like this like chore. ⁓ So that you're making sure you're giving enough time to building out the business in a way that's as intentional as possible. We're trying to move from, you know, ⁓ crisis mode or hopping between contexts and multitasking to like, all right, how do we create a system here that's like predictable, a little bit more calm? Despite all these things, there's still going to be moments of uncertainty and ⁓ instability here and there, but we want to try our best through, you know, creating routines and structure and ⁓ setting like boundaries and guidelines for ourselves, like how we spend our workday, ⁓ how a project with a client is structured. Those are the kinds of little details that come compound over time to make this like an actual business. And I love that you said like, let's double click not on working in your business, but on it. This is the harder part for a lot of folks, ⁓ excuse me, when they're diving into self-employment, because you know your skill, you know your background, your experience, like, you know, if you're an HR professional, like, you know the nuances of performance reviews and hiring, firing and all this stuff, or if you're, ⁓ you know, a software developer, like that's your space, you know that, but you haven't necessarily gotten exposure or were never taught how to run your own business. how to be a business of one, if that's what you're going after. And that can be the tricky part because there's no one else managing you. You're not on a team. You're making a lot of these decisions on your own. ⁓ And it's a different kind of challenge. It's not harder or better or easier than ⁓ full-time salary position or starting a tech startup with 10 other people.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: It's just its own career path with its own pros and cons and nuances to navigate. you ⁓ have to like consciously seek out the ways to structure this in a capacity that's, you know, financially rewarding, sustainable and interesting and enjoyable. Part of this should be enjoyable if we're doing our own thing. Like this all can't be that bad feeling of work of like, ⁓ gotta go to work today. It's like.
Mark Patterson: ⁓ huh. Yes.
Brian Honigman: We all have those feelings. It's never going to 100 % go away. But if like all of the things you're doing when self-employed feel that way, it's like, hmm, I don't know if this is the right option then, you know, because some of it has to fulfill something and even if it's 10 % of what you're doing. So long-winded answer to say, ⁓ setting up structure, repeatable processes, thinking intentionally about what your next moves are and not being so focused in the business.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's so good. I found myself recently going through my calendar. Now, the thing is, I think there are two types of people in the world. And you might see what kind of person I am at the end of this example. But I think there are two types of people. There are people who, if you get a prescription from your doctor and they say, take this every day at nine o'clock, and there are people... who can wake up every morning and they're gonna take that medicine at nine o'clock and they're gonna do that thing. Then there are other people who in their mind, they know good and well. They need to do what they need to do at a certain time. But come heaven or high water, something or something, you're gonna get distracted. And you know you need to take your medicine at nine o'clock, but you just don't do it. so I think I'm definitely in the latter camp. ⁓ And so I've set up reminders on my calendar to orient me to certain days of the week because I think that is so key ⁓ to where it's almost like I condition myself even with my nine to five like especially with like managing people it's almost gotten to the point where ⁓ Because we're as a on a content and writing team where you're also like doing like project work ⁓ Just in comms, you know, it's just the work is different every day And so we kind of like set up this agreement one time with one of my, the young ladies that's on my team. We're like, okay, Tuesdays and Thursdays. That's our writing and review days. Like I'm not sending you a bunch of, I'm not popping in, you know, on a team's call. it's like, look, that's the day we know, just assign me the stuff. And then if I have not read it or reviewed it or written it, then we can hold each other accountable to that. Same with my, ⁓ same with my freelancing. Like now. just with the podcast, I've just become unwavering. It's almost like Friday nights, even if I'm turning it on and I feel like I need to get some enjoyment, I'm like turning on Chicago PD and ⁓ we're editing the episode or working on the newsletter just because I know like, ⁓ this is the day of the week where I do the thing. And that really has been the game changer. But I feel like I wonder if you felt this, I've gotten... very in tune with the rhythm of doing the work, like working in the business. But I wonder if there's a mindset thing, especially for early stage entrepreneurs, early stage creators, where you kind of have to talk yourself into the pitch sometimes, or you kind of have to figure out, yes, you know you can do good work, but... I don't know whether it's, I mean, maybe you're gonna be my therapist for the next 10 minutes. know, it's like, maybe there's like a fear of a no on the other side, or maybe there's some type of thing that's like fueling the procrastination. I don't know, but there, for some reason, like, you know, as an example, I made contact with ⁓ someone at a brand recently.
Brian Honigman: Thank ⁓
Mark Patterson: And was like, ⁓ I love the product. I use it, yada, yada, yada. You know, if you are looking for some content ideas, would love to connect. And she was like, ⁓ yeah, absolutely. And so I'm like, ⁓ yeah, I'll shoot you over a deck and yada, yada, yada. I have been himmin' and haulin' for about two weeks to send over, I don't know why. And I am the pitch deck king. I mean, I'm not trying to like toot my own horn, but there's one skill I have, is to make a pitch deck. But I don't know what it is, like sometimes, maybe for... the early stage folks, if I were to attribute it to one thing, maybe it feels like sometimes you do a lot of this potential engagement and then sometimes things just, they may not be a fit, they don't work. And it only takes one yes to find that new ideal client. But I wonder, do you navigate that as somebody, you're 13 years in, do you just, how do you overcome that kind of push and pull mentally, like the mindset behind pitching and going after those opportunities.
Brian Honigman: Yeah, that's a fabulous question because it's the harder part, right? It's like, don't, you know, running a blog post is step one, two, three. Mindset shifts are hard. And a lot of this moving from salary position to freelance or side hustle to it taking off is a lot of it's mindset shifts because like the rules have changed. The constraints you're up against or the guidance you once had will shift. ⁓ So I heard two things there. ⁓ One is like, where do get the motivation to be self-directed on different tasks? like, ⁓ how do you like organize this to make sure that you're not spread across too many things and you work on the priorities and you move forward as best possible, it's never gonna be perfect. Those are like two things I heard in there. One is like ⁓ getting clear on what motivates you for different types of tasks. Like sometimes it's like, if I do not, deliver this slide deck, then I will not be hitting the milestone, the three milestones that we agreed upon. This is the first one. If I don't hit these milestones on the agreed upon deadline, then I won't be paid. Sometimes it's a financial motivator. Other times, ⁓ it's the accountability of having someone else be waiting for you and you're holding up their time. Ooh, does that get me? I'm like, ⁓ I can fail at some side project or some nice to have endeavor.
Mark Patterson: Yeah.
Brian Honigman: But if there's someone else related to that project or like co-owners or collaborators, I am far more motivated to ⁓ move more quickly and make sure it's done. I don't want to negatively impact them. ⁓ Is this something that just brings you so much joy as part of your overall work mix? And the joy alone is motivation to do it because you ⁓ just want to use this skill. You want to like do that type of work. Is it outward recognition, getting recognized by another freelancer or your industry more broadly or clients? Is that your motivator? So it's not something you can quickly, in my opinion, like figure out overnight. It's like, what does keep me motivated on moving forward with different types of tasks? And how can I make sure those incentives are in place? Sometimes it's just naturally in place, like you're working on a client project. You are accountable to them. There's money involved. Like you don't want to mess that up. That one might be more straightforward, but if you're working on another project, it's like, ⁓ okay. How do I make sure that I'm putting incentives in place that keep me moving forward? I'm working on a bigger project right now that ⁓ I kept putting off because I know it's, ⁓ you know, really intellectually challenging. It's going to be time consuming. And ⁓ I've worked on it in one iteration years ago, and I was like, got to revisit that. I've come to it again recently, and I've made such ⁓ more structured incremental progress on the task this time around because I hired someone else for their support, for their ⁓ expertise on this project. So doing some delegation. And I have the feeling of accountability. I'm like, okay, cool.
Mark Patterson: ⁓ no.
Brian Honigman: not only can I lean on their skills, this is their primary expertise here, ⁓ but my contributions, I can't dilly dally around and think on this and keep it on the nice to have to do list forever because I'm paying them. So I'm accountable to myself here and ⁓ this is their time too. So finding your motivation and then I promise the quick on this is like when, especially in the push season and it'll come up in different seasons as well as like you have all these tasks. You feel like the weight of the whole business is on your chest sometimes. Something that helps is like really thinking through how long do all these different types of tasks and commitments take on average. If you don't know, track it. Use a tracking tool. Use a simple stopwatch on your phone to say, every time I sit down to build out a slide deck or prep a customer brief, takes this long. With that knowledge in mind, ⁓ you can better map out and scope out your capabilities on your calendar. Like I only have the capability to take on two coaching clients per day. And then that leaves me some time for admin work, some time for this, for that. ⁓ So that you are creating your schedule because you're in command here. You're creating your schedule with your capacity in mind. So you're not taking on too much and like
Mark Patterson: Yeah.
Brian Honigman: doing the overwhelm. That's where the feast and famine stuff comes into play, where you're like working on the most and then you don't have time to do other important tasks that feel less timely. ⁓ So yeah, that's how I make sure and I recommend others think through is like, okay, what is my capacity in a given week and what's actually reasonable for me to take on so I can make thoughtful progress on, you know, client engagement or anything else I have going on.
Mark Patterson: Hmm.
Brian Honigman: So motivation and scheduling your capacity can really help to move things forward in an incremental way.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm. I want to pivot just a little bit when it comes to ⁓ going back to the idea of showing versus telling and getting published. Because I feel like a lot of people, especially corporate folks, they might be seeing this conversation on LinkedIn at some point, and they're in the building, and they're like, okay, I need to figure out how am I going to start sharing my expertise? building community outside of these four walls or what have you, getting published, feel like is something that might be in their mind. And I feel like you've definitely, you've earned your stripes. If I'm not mistaken, I think you yourself have been published and you've taken other folks' stories and gotten them into publications. So talk to me about the anatomy of a good story and a good...
Brian Honigman: Yeah.
Mark Patterson: pitch because I feel like everybody might feel like they have a story to tell. But when you are actually somebody who's working in media, you're like, look, we've seen the story a thousand times or perhaps there are things that you might be looking for and you might be on the hunt for. So, you know, for all of those corporate preneurs, all of those ⁓ side hustlers that are trying to find their way into, especially legacy media still. or the bigger names per se in media, talk to them and tell them how they should approach going about securing those opportunities.
Brian Honigman: Yeah, I mean, in terms of the story you're trying to tell, thinking about what's, you know, if you have a topic in mind, what's the relevancy to the editor you're pitching, the reporter you're pitching, the publication, like it needs to be a sound match in that capacity. You need to be a lot more concise than you think in terms of framing up the story. I think a lot of people drone on and on and on about a concept and that can ⁓ indicate you don't have the clear argument down. ⁓ Thinking through ⁓ the relevancy to the person you're pitching and the publication obviously needs to have some connection to what you're trying to advocate for your ideas, your company, what have you. ⁓ Making sure that you have a concise clear argument. And then what's the unique factor ⁓ so that it's just not the same generic story we've heard over and over and over again. If you're like pitching a story about AI, for example, it's been so widely covered, you have to make sure that there's some angle that makes sense to you that's ⁓ special. ⁓ That they haven't already widely covered with that publication. this is starting to feel as I'm talking, I'm saying like, this is trying to feel like a mix between the pitch and the story. ⁓ It's not easy, but super possible. I'm just some guy. ⁓ And with with pitching in general, ⁓ I have like a kind of four sentence kind of ⁓ structure to a pitch and and as you're formulating it, ⁓ you want to super quickly lead with
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: the headline and why it's timely now. It doesn't need to be a breaking news story, but there needs to be some timely element to what you're to the person. A sentence or two on some of the details to ground it and like, okay, it's not just like a concept. I some thinking to this argument with kind of one or two, maybe three points around.
Mark Patterson: Hmm.
Brian Honigman: as like evidence, as a structure to how I'm gonna build this out. You don't have to have the whole story written in some cases. Some cases they do want the story already written, but ⁓ then you wanna introduce yourself very concisely. Like, why is it, why are you the person to be telling this? Maybe your title, your company you work at, ⁓ projects you've worked on. Why do you have the expertise to tell this story? ⁓
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: So that's pretty helpful. And whenever possible, do you have one or two quick examples you can reference of other writing you've done on this subject or just in general from the most reputable places you've written for to date to show them you not only have expertise in this area, if you don't, if you haven't written about this subject before, that's okay. They do want to see that you have the ability to write, to write a concise, interesting, you know, well written story ⁓ that makes sense for their context. So moving away from like, you know, I kind of mixed the pitch in the story. And I just talked about kind of the dynamics of a pitch a little bit. Part of it is you're going to have to pitch a lot, especially in the beginning. ⁓ It's not like you just automatically get everything approved at some point, unless you're like, you know, the super mega famous or something. ⁓ I pitch all the time, even to editors where I'm a contributing writer. who like I'm approved and I guess respected and able to write for them and they'll still say, no pass on that. And sometimes with clarity, sometimes they'll say something like, ⁓ that's not at the right expertise level for our audience. Thank you though. And I'm like, okay, I've written so many articles for here. What do I do now? So recognizing that it's a, meet every pitch needs to be quality, but it is a quantity game. Like it's gonna, you're gonna get a lot of rejection in the process. And then my final point here to be thinking about when trying to get into a bigger name in your industry or just more holistically, ⁓ I like to think of a ladder approach, meaning try to start writing first for yourself on places where there's no gatekeeper, like a Substack on LinkedIn, wherever, Medium, ⁓ and get your practice going there. That's kind of like ladder rung, the first rung of the ladder.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: The next is like, is there smaller publications, smaller news sites that are a little bit less competitive, but still have an editor or some kind of editorial oversight on who they decide to get, who they choose to get published and try to pitch stories there, try to pitch an article there. That way you're slowly building a credibility of different clips that you've gotten from a site that is still like well vetted and has editorial control over their publishing.
Mark Patterson: and
Brian Honigman: but might not be as competitive as the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times or some other mainstream publication. You want to work your way up. And then the point is from there, it's like writing on your own. The next ladder rung is like a smaller but known in your industry publication. And then the next ladder up is like the bigger names in your industry or wider. It'll be helpful to have credible clips from that second rung of the ladder. in your wheelhouse in your portfolio so you can reference them. It's pretty important to indicate that you've been published somewhere where it wasn't just self directed, like that someone else had to say, yes, I approve that as a good idea. And maybe they help edit, they edit it for you or what have you. So I to think of it like the latter approach, you're working your way up and to not necessarily unless you're like, have this really fantastic idea and you're the best writer ever not to start trying to get into the New York Times as your first article or try to get into Fast Company as your second piece. It's not likely to land as a pitch.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm. Now for, and this is specifically the early stage creators, like I think ⁓ one, your experience as a freelancer, but then also somebody who has, I think we'll just categorize it in the vernacular that a lot of people use, brand deals with ⁓ other, let's say writing publications or things like that. Talk to people about the range that they should be negotiating with. in mind ⁓ because I think that something I've learned through episodes this season is that the compensation for people who are, especially they're new and they're green, think one, we all can do the pitch to work with the brand. Hey, would you mind a gifting collab? And I think those are absolutely great. But for the people that are trying to like find proof of concept with their side hustle or their creator business, especially if they're thinking like, okay, hey, I'm working and I'm making this much money as you know, this corporate in this corporate role and I'm trying to show my expertise and make money by doing this on the side, what should they have in mind in terms of an expectation. Like one, because I really don't even have that much ⁓ experience on the writing side per se. So I'm interested what you would say. But ⁓ one, when it comes to like doing brand deals, as we'll call them with publications, but then also as a freelancer, when you're trying to, because I think you spoke to this point earlier, when you're trying to break out of the cycle of having so much low paying work. And I feel like lot of freelancers sometimes are a little bit afraid to kind of bump up the price tag because they're afraid they might not have the demand and have fewer clients, which technically I feel like is the unlock to do more quality work. But at the end of the day, I want to hear your opinion. So start with like the contributing and being able to. do those types of brand deals with publications and then like zoom out when it comes to like freelancing, like what should a new freelancer be okay with in terms of commanding in terms of a rate ⁓ and then being comfortable like sliding up that scale and when it's the right time to do that. I'm giving you a loaded question, ⁓ but you're the pro, you got it.
Brian Honigman: Sure. ⁓ When it comes to writing, specifically like paid contributions ⁓ as a regular contributor or one-off, ⁓ from what I've seen, the kind of pricing range, especially it's been, you know, over many years, I've been writing for sites, sometimes for free. Sometimes I did a ton of writing for free. even from publications in the early days to break through. So just want to be transparent on that. But a lot of publications, and again, I'm talking specifically publications would pay anywhere from like $100 a piece to I think the most that was paid per piece was like $850 for one article.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Brian Honigman: You are not going to and surely that's this just my experience. There's different, you know, not like a full time Vanity Fair writer, like I'm sure they have a living wage. But as an outsider, leveraging these as a part of my mix. ⁓ Ultimately, the writing for these publications is not an income generator. It's the visibility you get from other people getting to
Mark Patterson: you
Brian Honigman: read your insights, learn from you. It's that show versus tell moment, plus the credibility of a known institution. Like I can publish on LinkedIn and I have my own newsletter and I think that's great. But if someone's coming to me for the first time, and of course, like I do want to own some of the things I'm putting out there, but if someone's coming to me for the first time and they see an article from me in Fast Company, or they see an article on my newsletter, Career Freelancer, and they have no idea who Brian Honigman is, they're likely to trust Fast Company first as the... kind of if they had to pick between the two, because they're likely more familiar with it. And there's just like a credibility factor because not everybody can write for all these different publications. ⁓ So like those are the benefits that you get outside of ⁓ compensation. it really varies. It's kind of specific. I'd say like freelance writing, like a fair rate is anywhere from a dollar to a dollar fifty an hour, ⁓ an hour, sorry, a dollar.
Mark Patterson: Yes, yes.
Brian Honigman: $1.50 per word, per word. It's Friday, my apologies. But yeah, on a per word basis and then other ways that I, and that was for writing for different, not publications for companies in producing content for them. But the space has already changed so much in recent times. Something else I did to like ⁓ earn more revenue from writing in the early days. And this again, this is for companies, not publications.
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: was packaging multiple pieces together so that I'm making $3,000, $5,000 ⁓ from a group of articles, from a group of resources, and ⁓ giving the client somewhat of a discount because they're buying in bulk upfront as part of a package. And that's a conversation that I always have is like packaging up your offering. So you have a process you follow. the... Workload is sustainable for you and it's really clear for the client what they're getting from you ⁓ So yes some nuances there, you know again, I just would my advice is like you're not gonna make much money ⁓ from contributing to publications and that shouldn't be unfortunately, it's just the reality is like it's not gonna be the ⁓ outcome the outcome is being able to access large audience to share your great ideas, get that credibility trust, and hopefully that converts into something good for you. ⁓ It has for me and more I've made so much. ⁓ I've gotten so much benefit from writing, I've written thousands of articles at this point over my career and not over time. Each piece by piece has like ⁓ put me in a different position than I would be if I didn't have those credibility markers. And then if I hadn't put my ideas out there for people to think on, either ignore it or resonate with it and come to me to hire me for something. ⁓ And then in terms of like just pricing in general, ⁓ it's hard to talk so broad about because it's like, we pricing a graphic design project? Are we pricing a three month AI rollout? Are we pricing ⁓ drafting emails? What I will say is like, especially in the early days, I cannot recommend enough befriending other freelancers that do similar work to you. Competition isn't the same as we view it in the American economy amongst businesses for freelancers. Like there's enough pieces of the pie to go around. So what I recommend is in the early days, partnering up with others who you can commiserate with and feel comfortable and honest enough with to say, Hey, what are you charging? What do you see as the the average rate here and are we able to hit that or go above and beyond it by articulating the wonderful value we offer to clients and making sure that it's clear ⁓ what's special about our approach, what's unique about your expertise, what kind of results can you ⁓ provide them so that you in fact feel confident ⁓ in pitching yourself whatever price point. So I think that would be my advice on pricing is like, don't just try to figure this out on your own and just do Google searches or like look at blog posts that are probably incorrect and go talk to real people in the space and see what they're charging. See how clients are reacting to their work. And then it's not just like, you know, grabbing information from them and it's a one way street. This is a relationship you should aim to get, ⁓ aim to share what you're up against and what you've been thinking about research you've done so you can come together and figure it out. I know for a fact, I am not a full-time creator in the sense of like, I'm not developing TikToks and being paid for it. I know even some of the big creators, they have management to help with all the pricing stuff, but at different stages of their career, even like the household names, they've talked with other creators to see what's working, what's not working, including where you're charging, where you're not charging. And a dialogue is where...
Mark Patterson: Mm-hmm.
Brian Honigman: ⁓ and some openness to a certain circle of folks that you find for yourself and who seek you out is how you get to ⁓ initially getting paid what you're worth, understanding what other people are charging so you're not left behind or way overcharging and missing out on work for no reason just by making some intentional shifts.
Mark Patterson: So before we go, I would love to get the best advice and the worst advice that you've gotten as a freelancer. And then make sure you let everybody know where they can find you and follow you ⁓ for all things for ⁓ one, just I think you're in the trenches laying the breadcrumbs for everybody to find success in their journeys as freelancers. ⁓ But ⁓ look, I I hope everybody who's listening to this that they will take a minute and just pick an article because literally it could be Russian roulette. It's all good stuff. ⁓ one, best advice, worst advice, and then how people can follow you.
Brian Honigman: Well, you're sweet. Thank you for reading my pieces when you see them. ⁓ I think some of the best advice is just to start before you're ready. Like I know this whole time in our conversation, I've been like the intentional plan. There's some aspects of doing your own thing that you have no experience in. And you have to learn as you go. You can take a class, you can ask a colleague, but... You're never going to be in all aspects of doing your own thing when there's so many nuances at play. You're not going to be ready and perfectly equipped to handle it all at first. But the best thing you can do is just start, explore and start exploring, experimenting with something new. You never know, you know, an interest you have professionally, how it's going to pan out for your business and turn into something really exciting, or you explore it a little bit. You fail a few times, you keep exploring it and you're like, hey, this actually is not for me. I don't want to do this. It's not interesting or it doesn't pay enough or whatever it is. And that's okay too. But ⁓ the ability to get kind of stuck over analyzing over, know, investing in all the steps and the process is like sometimes just have to get started to get the ball rolling and just like incremental progress is way better than sitting there and planning forever.
Mark Patterson: Hmm?
Brian Honigman: terms of like the worst. ⁓ so I wouldn't say it's advice, but feedback that stung a little bit from a friend who I still love to this day and isn't watching this. ⁓ I remember in the earlier days of freelancing, ⁓ they were like, what's the thing you love the most right now? And I said, I love working remotely. I am so more energized and excited to dive into the work. And I just feel like this is like the remote work. as part of my freelancing is a really key unlock and benefit for me. And they were like, that's it. That's what you care about the most. That's, and then they didn't really say why they had that reaction. But my reading between the lines is they wanted me to say, ⁓ I'm, you know, I'm acting on my passion for marketing strategy. They wanted me to say something, you know, more stereotypical or more so about like the passion for work. And I do really like the work I spend my time on. like helping people in coaching. I like working on marketing stuff. I like the creative aspects. And like the things I love most have changed and evolved over time. But hearing that criticism, I was just like, this is what I like. And I've designed my own career for what makes sense for me. And the lesson there is like, what works for you doesn't work for me sometimes. And vice versa. The best part about self-employment is you get to figure out the aspects. that make up your fulfilling career, because your definition of success, fulfillment, financial stability is unique. Surely we have things in common, but we all ⁓ get to the luck and the privilege here is like you get to figure it out on your own terms and don't let other people define it for you.
Mark Patterson: Thank 100%. So where can people follow you and make sure they stay plugged in on all
Brian Honigman: Yeah, the easiest place is my website. It's www.brian.com. And I have a newsletter that's on LinkedIn or Substax. You can search for it on either place. It's Career Freelancer. And that is a weekly newsletter where I talk about some of the subjects we hit on today where I'm musing on the different lessons and ⁓ the pros and cons to navigate a freelancing so that it's a career long pursuit and not just something that you start and fizzles out and becomes unenjoyable. My goal is to help you realize that freelancing is just as viable of a career path as any other one out there. So that's a career freelancer on LinkedIn and Substack.
Mark Patterson: Thank you so much for your time Brian you're welcome in the combo room anytime and I can't wait When I'm scrolling on LinkedIn see the next post bro. Have a good one
Brian Honigman: Thanks Mark.
