speaker-0: This is 21st Century Reformation at 21str.org. Anthony Romans chapter 14. Wow. We're really moving along here, aren't we? it has.
speaker-1: It's been an exciting process, hasn't it to do Paul verse after verse intensely and consecutively. It's really an extraordinary experience.
speaker-0: Well, i from the very start I've just been, you know, amazed at the wonderful words and wisdom and understanding and it just as it's often said, it just blows me away. It's a it's marvelous.
speaker-1: Isn't it also terribly relevant to our current scene? This is not some academia that we're looking at the first century. The problems that Paul tackled in this book are exactly the same problems as we have in denominationalism
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: now, right? Nothing has changed.
speaker-0: Well
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I keep expecting as we worked our way through thirteen now into our fourteenth chapter, I keep expecting that it you know, we'll have kind of a a a down chapter or the you know, all of this stuff's been so wonderful. And I keep thinking, Well, we'll get a chapter where it's just not so great. They're all great, aren't they? Yeah. And and I think that will prove to be the case here with fourteen as well.
speaker-1: I think so. It's covering even new things. I mean there's always something new in Way of the Topic and yet the underlying law versus spirit thing is this healthy.
speaker-0: Shows up just place after place, chapter after chapter. Absolutely. That's obviously his underlying thought and all of that.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: That's wonderful. Chapter 14, verse 1. As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him. But not to quarrel over opinions. Verse 2: One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Verse 3. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and not let the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats for God has welcomed him. Verse four Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls, and he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Wow, so this is a an interesting point. He's again he doesn't really know these Christians at Rome. He he's he said that. He hasn't been there to visit with them and but he's writing things to them that I suppose he would either know or readily suspect could be a problem for them because I suppose he'd run into the same issues in other places. Yeah.
speaker-1: I think one of the key words here is weak. Because people make this passage an excuse for all kinds of weaknesses forever, right? And Paul is very cleverly saying, You follow me now, I'll follow Paul. That's right. I, a Jew and a Christian, am the strong one. I'll set the model and he's going to tell us what that is in this chapter. And so yes, if someone's a vegetarian, fine, let's not argue with that a as the initial point. But we should point out that you're weak if you're having these scruples about foods and vegetarianism and so on. It's all right, that's where you are, let's deal with you patiently. But you might consider moving forward and and maturing like Paul.
speaker-0: Which would be good for you and for the for the entire the the entire group, yes. Yes. I think so. Interesting too, that I think as we're working through this, we're going to find that Paul is not approving the weakness. He's he's not saying, Well, maybe that's okay or you know. Actually the weakness is a problem. It's a problem. But he does lead the Romans to Be kind and gentle with the weak brother and and for the weak brother to be very cautious, very careful to not condemn the the brother who is not weak.
speaker-1: But what we've done in fact is set up whole denominations based on some of these weaknesses. Almost
speaker-0: Goodness, yes.
speaker-1: we have whole denominations who say it's wrong to have meat of any sort. Whole
speaker-0: yes, yes.
speaker-1: denominations who are against the use of very moderate alcohol occasionally. That is not what Paul has in mind, I think. So I think you're right there. The message is to the strong, be very gentle to the initiate, the guy coming in new to the faith. But heaven forbid that that would go on for two thousand years, can we possibly not have learned the lesson by
speaker-0: Can we not get beyond this and move on? That's right. Verse five One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
speaker-1: That's excellent. Good advice, isn't it? And that's exactly Colossians two, where the issue is don't let anybody pass judgment on you in two areas food and drink, Sabbath holidays and new moons. I
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: see. It's the same problem precisely. Issues of what what day to observe and what foods to avoid. So immediately Colossians two, which is later than this.
speaker-0: Well yes, yes.
speaker-1: By the time you get to Colossians, it's become a problem. Now you've got people saying you must keep the Sabbath holy days and new moons and you mustn't eat this or that food, right? Here it's not quite grown to that degree of seriousness. So he's advising us to be tolerant
speaker-0: I love Paul's reasoned approach to all of this. That he he's balancing two things. he's balancing The error of the weak brother who thinks various things, he thinks you must keep one day holy. That's right. and and and lift it up above others. That's right. That's a weakness on the part of that brother. I don't understand. And here's a brother who thinks that you should not eat meats. and and that's a and that's a problem then. but he he's recognized these are weaknesses, these are problems. He's not saying they're not. Yes. But I think His he's balancing all that against love that weak brother. Yes. Love him. Yes. And by the way, y he he doesn't pull any punches. He says the fellow who thinks you can't eat meats is weak. That's right. You know, that that has to kind of stick a little bit. you know, the the brother's weak thinks you can't do this, but actually he's wrong. You can't. That's right. the brother who thinks you must honor one day above others is wrong. But you know. so
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: He's got this balance. He's very clear about the weakness is not right. It's not not a good thing. But the b the brother who is weak, deal with him gently and with love to the extent that you can. And and then the the the weak brother must be cautious, he must be careful not to think because that the strong brother is eating meat or I is not reverencing one day above others that that brother is somehow then a terrible guy. It's not so in the eyes of Messiah and in the in the eyes of
speaker-1: Flesh should we start a new denomination to show that one day does matter against all of those pagans who are are not concerned about. We've really gone b gone wrong here as a human race. We've been very s remarkably stupid, I think. And Paul is going to model now later on. As a Jew and a Christian, he's gonna tell it like it is. And what a huge degree of unity would come out of this. my god, if we could actually obey it. Yeah.
speaker-0: And and one thing I've noticed, Anthony, is there is this amazing thought that the person who has determined you shouldn't eat meats or you must esteem one day above others, that that person thinks they're strong. Look and
speaker-1: Yes. By doing that. That's right.
speaker-0: abstain from meats. Look at my self-control, my will, and my dedication to God. I abstain from meats. Paul says That brother is weak. He thinks he's strong. He's gonna come along and say to everyone else, you should not be eating meats, or you must hold one day above others. And that that brother is is thinking he's strong and he thinks the other people are weak. Actually, Paul is making it very clear the it it is the weak brother who has the problem here, who thinks he
speaker-1: Part of that weakness would be that you're actually condemning Jesus. That's the awful thing. Yes. If you're going to condemn Jesus and be more righteous than Jesus, you know, and the issue of wine where he turns the water into wine to wedding, no, don't let him do that. You see, that would be a terrible sin. He's actually accused of being a wine biver, Jesus is. They recognize John the Baptist didn't drink wine, but Jesus did. Relax, you know, this is not an issue. Should not be an issue. Live and let live if people are weak, that's fine. Sure. Be tolerant. But the standard is being set by Jesus ultimately, who did eat fish incidentally. Wasn't a vegetarian. Yes. Okay, so what do you what do you why are you vegetarian? Well, you could have a health reason for it, that that's a separate thing. Sure. If you don't like hormones and meat, don't eat it, that's fine. But to make that a religious issue is to go better than Jesus. Now then my hackles get up. Yes. And I'm then I'm really troubled.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's right. And Paul also, I think, here. That's right, that's right. Verse six. The one who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats eats in honor of the Lord. Since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. Verse seven for none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. Isn't that kind of a way saying no man's an island? We we we all have interconnection, relationship with one another, so we must be careful then how we proceed with one another. Yeah. Yes, with the weak indeed.
speaker-1: with the weak. And vice versa too, the weak should learn to be strong. It's
speaker-0: That's wrong.
speaker-1: diplomacy this, isn't it? He's trying to keep everybody happy and yet moving forward.
speaker-0: That's right. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. Verse eight, For if we live, we live to the Lord. And if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. We belong to him. Wonderful, yes. So the weak brother is the Lord's. And we must keep that in mind, I think Paul.
speaker-1: yes.
speaker-0: And and and the weak brother, who may have a lot of difficulties here that need that he needs to work through, must keep in mind. The strong brother certainly belongs to the Lord too, and and actually is the better off one, as it were.
speaker-1: Exactly. Yes.
speaker-0: Verse nine. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. So whether we live or whether we die, we're his. Whether we're weak or whether we're strong, we are his. But we do have to work our through our way through these issues as we go along. because weak brothers are going to come along who are going to have these problems. Yes. And we
speaker-1: Exactly right.
speaker-0: have to to work our way through that and to the to the extent that we possibly can.
speaker-1: Yeah, we haven't done it. I mean to find a new denomination on these principles which are debatable things is really a shame, isn't it?
speaker-0: Isn't it if we have a a denomination in which these are are essential principles of the denomination, then haven't we gotten a bunch of weak brothers together and they're all going to be weak together, but that's not very healthy either. That's not now we're going to found a denomination on the idea that we all must reverence one day above others. And that's that's our denominational heritage thing. This is unfortunate. We have a bunch of weak folks getting together and thinking that they're they're strong. That's really scary.
speaker-1: And also creates in those folk the sense of self righteousness. Because look, we've got what is in fact a weak principle. We found a whole denomination on what Paul calls weakness, but now we're really the strongest. Yeah, we're those strong folks. Now we have to b have the burden of judging and condemning everybody else who hasn't adopted our weak principle. That compounds the problem, doesn't it?
speaker-0: It s it certainly does. And then you really have a a difficulty there. But I love Paul who's very forward, very direct here. the brother who's who can eat anything, he's strong. this is the where strength lies. it doesn't matter. And the brother who or sister who who doesn't reverence one day above others. is strong, is wonderful, this is fine. So I love Paul's clarity in this matter and it it speaks to us to this day if we'll allow it to.
speaker-1: want to comment on Christ died and lived, that's important. He died and then came to life in resurrection. Die
speaker-0: yes, I like that.
speaker-1: and continue living. Yes. So the famous passage where he was put to death in the flesh, came alive in the spirit, refers to his resurrection life, had to be raised from death into life via resurrection. That being the only way in the Bible that you can come back from death by resurrection. There's no other way out of death except resurrection. Very easy.
speaker-0: Which places great importance and significance on resurrection. And and the hope lies with resurrection. and there really is a distinction between living and and being dead. It's very interesting, that's right.
speaker-1: Bottom line stuff in scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
speaker-0: Yes. Verse ten. Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or why do you despise your brother? Mm-hmm. For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. Well interesting. So he's been it looks to me like he he's mentioned why are you judging another man's servant? So recognizing that both the the weak brother and the strong brother belong to Christ. Don't judge another man's servant. Here he's using this picture of judgment too, saying, We're not the ultimate judge of of any one who trusts in Christ. Wouldn't
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-0: it be great if Christianity could learn that lesson? my goodness.
speaker-1: yeah. Yes indeed. The very things that we're exposing here, I think, as weaknesses in our systems. Why not get this right now? Why wait till judgment day when we're going to have to at least lose rewards if not be rejected because we were stubborn enough to maintain our own weak position against the advice of proper view. Let's get it right now rather than then. Yes, yes.
speaker-0: I I like this too about we're talking about the judgment seat of God and the people then who will c confess to God. these these are wonderful words. We know based on passages like Acts seventeen and thirty and thirty
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: That God is committing this judgment. It is God's judgment. It it is him that is ultimately the judgment, but he's committing the judgment to this man, Christ Jesus. He will isn't that wonderful?
speaker-1: And that man Christ Jesus is speaking to us this very day through the words of Paul.
speaker-0: The words of Paul.
speaker-1: So the judgment standards are being set here. Why not conform to that standard now rather than wait to be condemned for our weaknesses in the future?
speaker-0: Well and and think about it, Anthony, the judgment again for for the Christian will be the words of Jesus Christ again in in John twelve. That's a pivotal text I think. So we should be paying careful attention to the words of Jesus, the words of Jesus in Peter, the words of Jesus in Paul, the words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, and be ever seeking to conform to his words.
speaker-1: my fear, Dan here, is that denominationalism takes us over because of the family ties. You know, if you're brought up in a certain denomination, you've got your whole family invested this, then you're already under a test. Who who is more important to you? Is it Jesus or is it your family tradition? Yes, yes. This is a very great snare. I mean the thing that Jesus had against the Pharisees was that tradition made the Bible of no validity. So there are things and issues being exposed here which actually do attack Thankfully, do attack and correct some of the denominational stands here. This is a very serious matter.
speaker-0: I one thing I was just thinking is I don't think you would find this kind of language or the language that we found in Jesus and some of the things he was saying. You won't find those in the code of Moses' law. You won't find in the code of Moses' law the saying, well you know, actually at the end at the end of it all Here is the will of God, and that is that you don't have to elevate one day above others. It doesn't have to be done. In fact, you can be a strong brother and and not do that. So and you don't have to avoid certain meats or and so on. You're not going to find that kind of language in Moses's law. That point But here we find it in in the Torah of Christ, don't we?
speaker-1: Of course there's a huge difference between the two Torahs doesn't it? The Torah of Moses is not the Torah of Messiah. There's clearly a difference. You're going to be killed if you pick up sticks on Friday evening under that system. I doubt whether you could plead that from this panel.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: That is actually rather striking. Let people meditate and think about the enormous the the huge gap, the chasm of difference between the Torah of Moses on some points and the Torah of Messiah.
speaker-0: A remarkable difference. Yeah. Well and you know too, I was thinking, Anthony, th we're talking about here Paula's talking about that We're we're not really to ju to be the judge of one another in that sense, in that ultimate sense. Right. I'm not going to be able to say to this brother over here because he thinks that he must elevate one day above others. Yes. That he's not Christ. Right. Well he well he can be, he certainly may be, we hope so. but but I'm not the judge of that person to say you're not Christ or you don't belong to him. You certainly may, if you've trusted in Christ and our our belonging. We need to recognize that But neither are we you were mentioning about family and this kind of connection. But our family is not going to be our judge either.
speaker-1: That's
speaker-0: And our mom and dad, our our brother, our sister, our our local pastor, or our person that we revere spiritually speaking. None of those people are going to be the judge in the end of the zone. It's gonna be it's gonna be God who is our judge, yes, working through the man Christian.
speaker-1: Very words, right? Jesus in Paul is equally Jesus, the historical Jesus, his very words. But these are equally Jesus' words, right? Yes. The notion that Paul is not speaking for Jesus is fundamentally false. These are the words of Jesus in this fourteenth chapter that we're going to be judged by. So let's get it right now. Make sure we are not on the wrong side of this judgment that Paul is making. No, these apostles have enormous authority, don't they? yes. I stand in awe of Paul as the apostle.
speaker-0: And we can actually see cr Christ, we can see Jesus speaking in them. Absolutely just as we can see God speaking in Jesus.
speaker-1: Exactly. This is scripture in these words. We're reading scripture. Holy scripture.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Therefore, let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. Well Verse 14. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself. But it is unclean for anyone who thinks it's unclean.
speaker-1: This is a staggering statement, actually. Staggering statement. Nothing is unclean. I I happen to bring out one commentary here who makes this observation. Talking about clean and unclean, the Greek word catharos is clean, akathartos is unclean. And catharos is clean. This one commentator up in front of me says this remarkable statement of Paul here in Romans fourteen undercuts the whole distinction between clean and unclean foods. on which Paul, like all other observant Jews, had been brought up. Undercuts. Hacks him to the ground. Don't let anybody then plead Leviticus eleven. Well. As a Christian standard. Isn't that amazing. Because the Apostle Paul speaking for Jesus has said that that's not right. This
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: is solemn stuff because again some of us went through a process in in earlier experience where we were terribly not observing what Paul was saying here.
speaker-0: And and I think Anthony this is very very specific language that Paul's using. Clean. Unclean. This is he's no longer talking about the guy the fellow who just wants to eat vegetables. It's not just that issue. And he's not really dealing with he's moving on really to something a little bigger picture here, isn't he? He's talking about the matter of ma things being clean i.e. clean per the law of Moses versus unclean. But Paul is telling us here remarkably. Yes. I'm persuaded.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: In who? By who? In in Christ.
speaker-1: And he's a Jew. Paul is a Jew, speaking now as a Christian, and that Jewish Christian Paul, the apostle, is saying in verse twenty later on, clarifying even verse fourteen, All things are clean, the Greek word catharos. That isn't a contradiction of Leviticus eleven. I don't know what would be where in that list there are a number of items that are a cathartos, unclean, and Paul is saying everything is catharos. If Paul meant
speaker-0: Everything is clean. This is amazing. Beautiful.
speaker-1: By this, well of course we're not we were not undermining the food laws at all. He's extraordinarily confusing. Yes.
speaker-0: He he's had a terrible absence. And one thing I like about it though is he is he's t he's saying to his readers at Rome, I didn't come up with this on my own. I'm persuaded in Christ Jesus. This he is my teacher and he's the one that has convinced me that all things are clean. Going back I think to the statement in Mark,
speaker-1: Yes, the yes, of course, as they later saw in Mark seven nineteen, thus Jesus said, although they didn't fully realize they couldn't have taken it at that time. They didn't at the time understand what he was implying. Later on they looked back and they said, as a comment, this saying of Jesus about don't fuss about washing your hands up to the elbow or whatever, thus he said cleansing all foods. Yes. Wow. That's the new covenant. Yes. Even in the words of Jesus, and if you didn't get it then You certainly get it now. In further words of Jesus in Paul that nothing is unclean of itself. you can eat snails and nails and no, no, no. We're talking specifically about food laws, clean and unclean. That's the distinction that is gone. I like that. Wow, this has potential to change whole denominations
speaker-0: powerful. I think something you were saying just now that caught my attention is Jesus was able only to bring them so much at a time for them. But he he really and I think people don't realize this or they don't grasp it when Christ came, he came to walk them as it were, out of the temporary covenant of Moses into his own eternal Torah, into his own i eternal program. And so he's he's he's helping them along the way to grasp this and they're gaining ground as they go. But sadly we have people apparently at Rome and other places who are still struggling because they don't they don't understand that they're under Torah Messiah rather than the Torah Moses now.
speaker-1: Exactly right. Often then they will appeal to a guru, you know, a guru dropped from heaven who turns out to be a better apostle than Paul. My
speaker-0: Homoc.
speaker-1: goodness, if you people in their droves pay attention to such leaders. People have visions, you know, even or special words. They've seen Jesus personally.
speaker-0: Yeah, I'm gonna.
speaker-1: Only problem is they contradicted what Jesus said here in Paul.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And and I, for one, would be ashamed to imagine that somehow I I could supersede Paul. the I I could spend a lifetime catching up to where Paul was at, I think. Again people should focus on this fourteenth verse of the fourteenth chapter until these matters have have really sunk into them and they realize how what an awesome statement is this is tremendous that that we're learning that nothing is unclean of itself.
speaker-1: It does simplify life, doesn't it? Yeah. It does make life a lot easier if you haven't got to worry about some of these issues that were important in the old in the old come, but not in the new.
speaker-0: Yes. Anthony, one thing I was thinking as we were saying that too is once again we have a situation where the brother who abstains thinks he's strong perhaps. I don't eat these unclean meats, I'm a strong brother. And here's this terrible would wannabe Christian over here who is eating these things. But in reality, Paul has set it aright as did Jesus and Mark and we're understanding all this. Yes. No no no. The the brother who who is trudging along Struggling, thinking I must not eat certain meats and all of this, and that certain foods are unclean. That brother is weak now. He does not understand the will of God in Christ Jesus. But it's interesting that the judge is not Moses. Moses will not judge you in the final judge. It is going to be God judging us in Christ Jesus. He will be the judge, not Moses.
speaker-1: That is interesting. It's it's also fascinating how the truth emerges with greater clarity in my mind as we discuss this. Yes, yes. Brings out aspects of this one hadn't thought of. When you think that later in the New Testament, Paul warns against those who forbid marriage. yes. And that forbids the eating and drinking, I think also of things which God did not condemn. yes, yes. So we have an awful situation here. You can find a whole denomination. On no marriage for the clergy, or i enforced vegetarianism, which are weaknesses, and yet a whole denomination arises.
speaker-0: That you must honor one day above others. Exactly. or that you must treat some foods as unclean. This is it's really unfortunate. It's terrible.
speaker-1: Horribly divisive, isn't it?
speaker-0: But I I think Paul is looking at there's a di in the case you brought up out of Timothy, there's a great difference that Paul is seeing when he has there's a brother here who thinks he he will not marry, maybe he thinks he even should not marry, I don't know. But God can work with that. Sure. But when when we get to Timothy, there's another matter. When you begin to teach others this is what you must do. Paul is saying to Timothy, this can be teachings of devils. Yes. This is another matter. This is very serious. And and likewise then the brother who thinks he he should not eat certain foods because they're unclean, he's weak. And God can work with that. But when you begin to make that a doctrine and and push that
speaker-1: Everybody else.
speaker-0: Then his words to Timothy come into play. A very different picture. No, these are doctrines of devils. refrain from this this terrible that that this not marrying business. Once it it reaches that point, it's a different matter and it becomes very
speaker-1: And what in d in fact did happen was those warnings were not heeded. So you do have a whole denomination eschewing marriage for the clergy. Yes, yes. You have the notion that Mary never had normal relations with with her husband. my goodness, yes. These became huge issues, now affecting billions of people generation after generation, all because of a failure actually to observe what Paul said to us, what Jesus said to us in Paul, in these various passages. So what you said there w was exactly right in Colossians two. Here it's a matter of getting the weak to move forward generally. Yes, yes. In Colossians two it's a very he changes his tone Yes. Where th somebody's trying to impose this on the whole of the Christian Brotherhood.
speaker-0: Then it becomes utterly serious then, terribly serious.
speaker-1: We have a lot of repenting to do as a Christian community now.
speaker-0: Goodness. But imagine if everyone could ever get on the same page with these matters. Imagine what Christianity could be. Christianity could become what Christ meant for it to be, if if we could ever do that. But we're not going to be but the you know, this this this congregation of God is not built upon Moses and the seventy elders of of Israel. It's built upon Jesus Christ, the apostles. this you know, Ephesians is clarifying. Yes. Moses is not what we're building on here. Exactly. and we find that again of course in Matthew sixteen. Yes. We're building on this foundation that Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, our leader and our teacher. He is our teacher, not Moses. Well that's
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: It's tremendous. Verse fifteen. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you're no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. Verse sixteen. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Wow. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness and peace and joy and in the Holy Spirit. Verse eighteen. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. nineteen. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. Wow.
speaker-1: That's very clear. He's gone back to his original point. But he then very cleverly says, That is weakness. He's going to change his tone a little bit in verse twenty when we get there. He's convinced that nothing is unclean. Yes, yes. So he sets the standard.
speaker-0: Yes. And he doesn't veer from it. He's not just
speaker-1: Not a not for a moment.
speaker-0: because a brother is weaker has a problem with it, he's not going to change the principle of truth that underlies these matters.
speaker-1: You'd think though that after two thousand years we could get beyond this. Yes,
speaker-0: I would think so.
speaker-1: if you're in the first century I see that. And I still see it because we do meet people who have been taught, you know, that such and such is a no no. Well let's go carefully with that. Let's not force anything on them. Sure. My goodness, this is terrifying. And we're two thousand years on. Can we not learn these easy lessons?
speaker-0: Like oftentimes people have been very sincere, as these weak brothers were, indeed. Very very dedicated to the Lord, wanting to please God.
speaker-1: absolutely.
speaker-0: In a way they're almost like children who have been abused. Yes. they they've been abused by the gurus and by the systems who have been imposing on them these matters and telling them you must treat certain foods as unclean in order to please God. Terrible untruth. But we've imposed that the the religious program out here often has imposed that on weak brothers. And then these these weak children, unfortunately, grow up as it were, and impose So it gets perpetuated.
speaker-1: It does.
speaker-0: You must honor one day above others. Not true at all. And I love the way Paul handles it.
speaker-1: It's changed awfully well with it. Yes. Then we should say that it's a matter of spiritual surgery to change a long-standing tradition where a beloved Sunday school teacher or grandmother has convinced you that you mustn't do this or you mustn't do that. To interfere with that is major surgery. We should recognize that. We're all prone to hang on at all costs to what some esteemed teacher told us until another view comes along which we must consider. Yes. and take seriously and consider the merits of the other view as well.
speaker-0: And and then I think we would ask no one to to hear us because mm it's up,
speaker-1: No.
speaker-0: but we certainly would ask everyone hear Jesus in Paul, hear Jesus in Peter, right, hear Jesus in these men who are who is bringing to us the knowledge and the understanding that under Torah Messiah
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: everything has changed. All of this other was a shadow, if you will, of what was really to come.
speaker-1: It's very clear. And also consider the awful fact each one of us should consider this. We might be the one dividing the church. yes. Horror of horrors. With our little hang up that we learn from some beloved teacher, that's wrong we could be responsible for dividing Christendom. That's wrong. That's a very serious issue.
speaker-0: And and for as a i isn't it kind of the a terrible enigma enigmatic matter that that a weak brother yeah thinks his strong brother is is wanton and doing terribly wrong and condemns the strong brother, when in reality it's the weak brother that's bringing the problem to the table to begin with is
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: and isn't it interesting then, once y our eyes begin to get open to these things? it's not so difficult to see. It actually turns out to be everywhere. The but our the the guru that I am enamored with it's interesting. I don't realize he's a guru guru when I'm enamored with him. It it doesn't come across. That's right. but if someone is is telling me as a Christian that I need to keep the law of Moses and be circumcised to be saved, or keep the law of Moses and not be circumcised, which is actually pretty ridiculous. A in inappropriate teacher of matters and a guru that I'm giving myself to. If someone is coming along and they're t the they're teaching that I should esteem one day above another, you must do that. That may well be a guru I'm following rather than a true man of God. Or he comes along and says, now certain meats are unclean because Moses said
speaker-1: Yes, yes.
speaker-0: That may be a guru I'm grown up with. Right. And he may take a a toll on my life, on the life of my family. It would be an unfortunate.
speaker-1: Or even, dare I say, somebody says that water baptism is irrelevant in the New Covenant, or that all nine gifts belong to every Christian all the time.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Again, such views are so unknown to serious commentary for two thousand years. Can we not have the humility to say, wait a minute, I could just be wrong and I got that from a guru whose qualifications were probably suspect anyway. That's the time to be warned. That's where the red flag should go.
speaker-0: Well, and you have to begin to think too as a as a Christian. If if this person I'm following is not even recognizing that all foods are now declared clean by Christ Jesus, and that's being affirmed here by Paul again, then does that person really have a grasp that he should be teaching others? He needs to be taught himself, as it were. And if you have someone coming along, you must elevate one day above others. That person does he do I really want to listen to him about other issues? Or someone as you say, if I I I have a a guru that that that is up teaching and saying, you don't need to be baptized in water or that is so unbiblical, untrue and this covenant of Messiah, baptism in water is such an obvious part of this program and they they don't understand that.
speaker-1: And they've got their one verse though. They got their one verse. That would contradict the whole of church history and the rest of the Bible. Doesn't matter, they've got their one verse.
speaker-0: But we have to balance the scriptures and get these issues right. And think about it. If if if I'm following someone who thinks I'm supposed to be keeping certain food restrictions, I may be following someone who doesn't understand scripture very well overall. What other errors or problems they also maybe certainly looked at the
speaker-1: At least that possibility should be countenance reality. Yes. And a lot of prayer and study go into it, you know. And honest heart searching, soul searching before God. I like the prayer of Greg Dybel in his book, you know, they didn't teach me this in church. It's a wonderful title, but his prayer there is, God, if I am deceived, please send somebody to undeceive me. What more can you do? That's right. A lot of lives have been changed with that prayer by
speaker-0: I like that a lot. Paul has been saying here again, he's talking about the practicalities, if you will, of Christians dealing with Christians in issues like these. And one of the things that he's cautioning in what we just read, I think, is that do walk in love and realize that your weak brother, because he thinks something is wrong, He does really have a problem. Yes. And until he can walk out of that, if he can until he can reach the point he can come beyond that, he does have a conscience that is troubled, if you will, yeah by that. And Paul says, let's be sensitive to the weak brothers brother's problem here and don't just run roughshod over him. Yes. Let's be careful, let's be sensitive, and don't use our freedom, which we have. That's right. That that word that we've talked about so much. Talks about so much, the freedom we have in Christ. Don't use the freedom which allows us to to count all days as equal before God. I all days would be holy before him. don't you don't use the freedom to recognize that all foods are clean. Don't use it to run roughshod over your brother, beat him down or say you're not of Christ or or because you're going to cause this weak brother to be offended. Don't do that. Let's be careful and how we work with with folks of this line and And he's even cautioned the weak brothers. Now don't be condemning the strong brothers. But I've often thought he's still he never wavers about the weakness and the strength. He's not gonna just say, Well, let's be kind to one another, therefore there is no such thing as weakness. No, he's calling it out for what it is. And
speaker-1: Put. That's very well put. Yes. The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. That's as as if to say Christianity, the faith. The Christian faith, the kingdom of God, that's another name for it, is not primarily a matter of eating and drinking, clearly. But it is a matter of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit right now. People have used this verse to denounce ninety nine percent of the kingdom verses, which clearly refer to a future kingdom. So Paul is speaking generally here, and there's no question that Christianity is all about the kingdom. It's all about the gospel of the kingdom. And our preparation for that future kingdom is indeed a lifestyle that involves joy and peace in the Holy Spirit. That's right. But people have this maddening habit of using one verse to destroy the evidence of
speaker-0: Wave off a a whole wonderful body of verses. That's tragic.
speaker-1: Luke seventeen twenty one, you know, the kingdom of God is within you. Probably a mistranslation in the King James, a difficult verse. But to use that as your your fundamental proof text is terribly misleading when there are ninety nine other verses which clearly say the kingdom of God is something you haven't inherited.
speaker-0: None of us.
speaker-1: Many verses say we're going to inherit the kingdom when Christ comes back.
speaker-0: It's a it's a forward looking issue.
speaker-1: But Paul with this wonderful grasping the totality, the Hebraic mind does that. He's not troubled, you know, with all the hair splitting arguments we come up with. And so you can say Christianity is all about the kingdom. Of course it is. It's all about having peace and joy when you believe in the gospel of the kingdom. But don't use this verse actually this happened to me in classroom yesterday when immediately this verse was forthcoming. As
speaker-0: okay.
speaker-1: the definitive defining umbrella text for the whole of the Kingdom of God gospel, and that's just wrong.
speaker-0: I liked your comment there too, Anthony, earlier when you were saying that a person operating with an uneducated con conscience. it's a it's a sad situation. They don't understand what the truth of God's will is. So they're operating in ways that that their conscience then is very susceptible then. absolutely.
speaker-1: vulnerable to all sorts of weaknesses.
speaker-0: Verse twenty Do not for the sake of food destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean. But it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. Verse 21. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. twenty two. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself in what he approves. But whoever doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith, for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. Wow, this is power once again, it seems to me that Paul is counseling the strong brother. Be careful around your weak brother because you don't he has a your weak brother does have a problem and it's quite serious. If he thinks that it is wrong for him to eat certain meats, it's wrong. That weak brother in that state is vulnerable. Yeah. And if he is eating those meats, he's going to feel condemned in himself. And this is a a terribly unfortunate situation. So it seems to me that Paul is counseling kindness. Yes. Then he's counseling at least some measure of accommodation. Yes. Don't don't perhaps invite your weak brother over your house and say, weak brother has a problem with pork. He misunderstands that he thinks he's not supposed to eat pork. Of course. Don't Men serve him up by great helping support, perhaps. this is that's right. This is not a good idea. That's exactly right. For one brother to to manage with another. But I do think accommodation is only possible in some degree because to some degree we're going to we're going to find that I have one brother over here who thinks that it's it's terrible to do a certain thing. And another brother over here who has an opposite opinion, I can't accommodate them both. you know, it's
speaker-1: That's a great point. And it strikes me also, backing up your point there, he says in twenty two, the faith which you have as your own conviction, have it before God. Don't tell anybody else, well, wait a minute, Paul, you've just been telling me
speaker-0: You've been telling everybody.
speaker-1: where we really are. Isn't that isn't that wonderful? That's right. And I see that. At one level, that's right. But at another level, it's a scandal that we cannot move into into strength from weakness with the apostle laying it out for us very clearly.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And and Paul's the thrust of everything Paul is saying carries the weight of that. He he's carrying this understanding that if you think you should only eat vegetables or you think you must elevate one day above others, or you think that you that certain foods are unclean, you are weak. That's right. That is a weakness. And so he's declaring it forthrightly. But then he's counseling, come on folks, let's let's work together here. And the one who is strong and realizes that you don't have to elevate one day above others and to please God. That that's not it. You don't have to eat only vegetables or you must treat certain foods as unclean. That brother who understands these things is the better off because he's not gonna fall into traps where he may find that his his weak conscience is then ensnared in these matters. So the strong brothers Better off. It's wonderful. But be careful how you deal in in situations with that brother who is weak. That's right. And and help him to come along. And maybe read to him Paul's words in Romans fourteen. And maybe that will help the weak brother to begin to break through this this error, this confusion.
speaker-1: Not to mention the cultural differences in our world now. I I'm seeing this drinking wine thing. I don't think it's drinking grape juice. you're not going to offend anybody with that. May or may not wish to drink wine. You go to Europe and you say, I'm a Christian, I don't touch that awful alcohol, you've lost your witness immediately. In America that would not be so you have to allow for huge differences of culture. This is gonna take some very careful a lot of wisdom.
speaker-0: A lot of wisdom and understand but I think that wisdom would begin with us by reading and carefully yes following and understanding yes these words in Romans fourteen.
speaker-1: And what about looking at the example of Jesus? That might be a good idea.
speaker-0: Yes, yes indeed. That's right. But I love this. I think one thing that I was thinking as we were reading this chapter too is it's not always just the brother who thinks you must elevate one day above others and and the and it's not always just the brother who's who's has problems, doesn't understand about the all foods are now clean which Paul has clearly discussed and Jesus also brought that out. they don't understand that it's not always that. It it may be a brother who says, now we must wear sleeves on our garments to a certain length. Or we as we were discussing earlier, you can't you can't wear a mustache. Or if you wear one it can only be a certain length. Isn't that creating For a kind of situation. We're creating our own problems, yeah.
speaker-1: Yes, and then you must touch this holy wall to be right.
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. Only this holy water will will do it. This is a substitute though for real faith. it's when the rest of your faith system is so frail you grasp at these straws to make you feel good. Yes, yes. And that's I think Jesus was against that.
speaker-0: We we create a program in which we can impose upon ourselves our own sense of approval. And we say, I don't eat those those unclean meats. I'm a good Christian. And but we're we're proving ourselves, unfortunately, it's not what God desires. You know, one thing, I once spoke on this matter in Romans fourteen in I think entitled what I was saying Errors for Christ. And I think it's important that a person recognize that when you're looking at these issues, we're looking at issues which are in states of confusion in the minds of Christian people. And it is a serious problem, it's a great difficulty. The person who has the the confusion is weak. Weak is not something you ever want to be in crime.
speaker-1: Not permanently.
speaker-0: But but the type of weakness they have here they're doing things that are not really in harmony with the will of God, but they're doing them thinking. In their hearts that they're doing the will of God. So for that reason, God can still work with this person and help bring them along and love that person and cause them to stand, as it were. I think here we're talking about people who really love the Lord, love God, have a problem, have confusion, and God can work with them because their error, their misunderstanding, is for in their minds, it's for Christ. And God then can be kind to that person. But God forbid that that person would turn and begin to teach these things to others and say, You must all do this, because then you begin to run into this problem we've been talking about in Timothy. and it becomes a severe problem. Because everybody you're going to cause everyone to be infected, everyone then becomes weak, and this is not edifying. It talks about the upbuilding of the body of Christ.
speaker-1: I think following what you're saying there, the letters to the churches in Revelation would be a very a good place for people to go because that's exactly the issue. How do you correct the church? Not not bring people in from outside, but how do you correct the errors in the church? Jesus is pretty tough there too. And so
speaker-0: he is.
speaker-1: once the knowledge of the truth comes to people, then I think they are under responsibility to change.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: And he's very hard on you. Some of you there teaching so and so, he says in Revelation two and three. That's gotta stop. yes, yes. Because you're gonna be losing your crown if you don't
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: desist from erroneous teaching. But at the same time, you're absolutely right. Deal gently with the weak.
speaker-0: Certainly. And so wow, this fourteenth chapter is just absolutely chuck full of wonderful words, tremendous wisdom. Very relevant. I don't see how we could be very effective as Christians without putting some thought into this fourteenth chapter of Romans. It's fantastic. And as you say, very relevant to us.
speaker-1: Highlight.
speaker-1: It's been an exciting process, hasn't it to do Paul verse after verse intensely and consecutively. It's really an extraordinary experience.
speaker-0: Well, i from the very start I've just been, you know, amazed at the wonderful words and wisdom and understanding and it just as it's often said, it just blows me away. It's a it's marvelous.
speaker-1: Isn't it also terribly relevant to our current scene? This is not some academia that we're looking at the first century. The problems that Paul tackled in this book are exactly the same problems as we have in denominationalism
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: now, right? Nothing has changed.
speaker-0: Well
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I keep expecting as we worked our way through thirteen now into our fourteenth chapter, I keep expecting that it you know, we'll have kind of a a a down chapter or the you know, all of this stuff's been so wonderful. And I keep thinking, Well, we'll get a chapter where it's just not so great. They're all great, aren't they? Yeah. And and I think that will prove to be the case here with fourteen as well.
speaker-1: I think so. It's covering even new things. I mean there's always something new in Way of the Topic and yet the underlying law versus spirit thing is this healthy.
speaker-0: Shows up just place after place, chapter after chapter. Absolutely. That's obviously his underlying thought and all of that.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: That's wonderful. Chapter 14, verse 1. As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him. But not to quarrel over opinions. Verse 2: One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Verse 3. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and not let the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats for God has welcomed him. Verse four Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls, and he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Wow, so this is a an interesting point. He's again he doesn't really know these Christians at Rome. He he's he said that. He hasn't been there to visit with them and but he's writing things to them that I suppose he would either know or readily suspect could be a problem for them because I suppose he'd run into the same issues in other places. Yeah.
speaker-1: I think one of the key words here is weak. Because people make this passage an excuse for all kinds of weaknesses forever, right? And Paul is very cleverly saying, You follow me now, I'll follow Paul. That's right. I, a Jew and a Christian, am the strong one. I'll set the model and he's going to tell us what that is in this chapter. And so yes, if someone's a vegetarian, fine, let's not argue with that a as the initial point. But we should point out that you're weak if you're having these scruples about foods and vegetarianism and so on. It's all right, that's where you are, let's deal with you patiently. But you might consider moving forward and and maturing like Paul.
speaker-0: Which would be good for you and for the for the entire the the entire group, yes. Yes. I think so. Interesting too, that I think as we're working through this, we're going to find that Paul is not approving the weakness. He's he's not saying, Well, maybe that's okay or you know. Actually the weakness is a problem. It's a problem. But he does lead the Romans to Be kind and gentle with the weak brother and and for the weak brother to be very cautious, very careful to not condemn the the brother who is not weak.
speaker-1: But what we've done in fact is set up whole denominations based on some of these weaknesses. Almost
speaker-0: Goodness, yes.
speaker-1: we have whole denominations who say it's wrong to have meat of any sort. Whole
speaker-0: yes, yes.
speaker-1: denominations who are against the use of very moderate alcohol occasionally. That is not what Paul has in mind, I think. So I think you're right there. The message is to the strong, be very gentle to the initiate, the guy coming in new to the faith. But heaven forbid that that would go on for two thousand years, can we possibly not have learned the lesson by
speaker-0: Can we not get beyond this and move on? That's right. Verse five One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
speaker-1: That's excellent. Good advice, isn't it? And that's exactly Colossians two, where the issue is don't let anybody pass judgment on you in two areas food and drink, Sabbath holidays and new moons. I
speaker-0: Yes.
speaker-1: see. It's the same problem precisely. Issues of what what day to observe and what foods to avoid. So immediately Colossians two, which is later than this.
speaker-0: Well yes, yes.
speaker-1: By the time you get to Colossians, it's become a problem. Now you've got people saying you must keep the Sabbath holy days and new moons and you mustn't eat this or that food, right? Here it's not quite grown to that degree of seriousness. So he's advising us to be tolerant
speaker-0: I love Paul's reasoned approach to all of this. That he he's balancing two things. he's balancing The error of the weak brother who thinks various things, he thinks you must keep one day holy. That's right. and and and lift it up above others. That's right. That's a weakness on the part of that brother. I don't understand. And here's a brother who thinks that you should not eat meats. and and that's a and that's a problem then. but he he's recognized these are weaknesses, these are problems. He's not saying they're not. Yes. But I think His he's balancing all that against love that weak brother. Yes. Love him. Yes. And by the way, y he he doesn't pull any punches. He says the fellow who thinks you can't eat meats is weak. That's right. You know, that that has to kind of stick a little bit. you know, the the brother's weak thinks you can't do this, but actually he's wrong. You can't. That's right. the brother who thinks you must honor one day above others is wrong. But you know. so
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: He's got this balance. He's very clear about the weakness is not right. It's not not a good thing. But the b the brother who is weak, deal with him gently and with love to the extent that you can. And and then the the the weak brother must be cautious, he must be careful not to think because that the strong brother is eating meat or I is not reverencing one day above others that that brother is somehow then a terrible guy. It's not so in the eyes of Messiah and in the in the eyes of
speaker-1: Flesh should we start a new denomination to show that one day does matter against all of those pagans who are are not concerned about. We've really gone b gone wrong here as a human race. We've been very s remarkably stupid, I think. And Paul is going to model now later on. As a Jew and a Christian, he's gonna tell it like it is. And what a huge degree of unity would come out of this. my god, if we could actually obey it. Yeah.
speaker-0: And and one thing I've noticed, Anthony, is there is this amazing thought that the person who has determined you shouldn't eat meats or you must esteem one day above others, that that person thinks they're strong. Look and
speaker-1: Yes. By doing that. That's right.
speaker-0: abstain from meats. Look at my self-control, my will, and my dedication to God. I abstain from meats. Paul says That brother is weak. He thinks he's strong. He's gonna come along and say to everyone else, you should not be eating meats, or you must hold one day above others. And that that brother is is thinking he's strong and he thinks the other people are weak. Actually, Paul is making it very clear the it it is the weak brother who has the problem here, who thinks he
speaker-1: Part of that weakness would be that you're actually condemning Jesus. That's the awful thing. Yes. If you're going to condemn Jesus and be more righteous than Jesus, you know, and the issue of wine where he turns the water into wine to wedding, no, don't let him do that. You see, that would be a terrible sin. He's actually accused of being a wine biver, Jesus is. They recognize John the Baptist didn't drink wine, but Jesus did. Relax, you know, this is not an issue. Should not be an issue. Live and let live if people are weak, that's fine. Sure. Be tolerant. But the standard is being set by Jesus ultimately, who did eat fish incidentally. Wasn't a vegetarian. Yes. Okay, so what do you what do you why are you vegetarian? Well, you could have a health reason for it, that that's a separate thing. Sure. If you don't like hormones and meat, don't eat it, that's fine. But to make that a religious issue is to go better than Jesus. Now then my hackles get up. Yes. And I'm then I'm really troubled.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's right. And Paul also, I think, here. That's right, that's right. Verse six. The one who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats eats in honor of the Lord. Since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. Verse seven for none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. Isn't that kind of a way saying no man's an island? We we we all have interconnection, relationship with one another, so we must be careful then how we proceed with one another. Yeah. Yes, with the weak indeed.
speaker-1: with the weak. And vice versa too, the weak should learn to be strong. It's
speaker-0: That's wrong.
speaker-1: diplomacy this, isn't it? He's trying to keep everybody happy and yet moving forward.
speaker-0: That's right. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. Verse eight, For if we live, we live to the Lord. And if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. We belong to him. Wonderful, yes. So the weak brother is the Lord's. And we must keep that in mind, I think Paul.
speaker-1: yes.
speaker-0: And and and the weak brother, who may have a lot of difficulties here that need that he needs to work through, must keep in mind. The strong brother certainly belongs to the Lord too, and and actually is the better off one, as it were.
speaker-1: Exactly. Yes.
speaker-0: Verse nine. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. So whether we live or whether we die, we're his. Whether we're weak or whether we're strong, we are his. But we do have to work our through our way through these issues as we go along. because weak brothers are going to come along who are going to have these problems. Yes. And we
speaker-1: Exactly right.
speaker-0: have to to work our way through that and to the to the extent that we possibly can.
speaker-1: Yeah, we haven't done it. I mean to find a new denomination on these principles which are debatable things is really a shame, isn't it?
speaker-0: Isn't it if we have a a denomination in which these are are essential principles of the denomination, then haven't we gotten a bunch of weak brothers together and they're all going to be weak together, but that's not very healthy either. That's not now we're going to found a denomination on the idea that we all must reverence one day above others. And that's that's our denominational heritage thing. This is unfortunate. We have a bunch of weak folks getting together and thinking that they're they're strong. That's really scary.
speaker-1: And also creates in those folk the sense of self righteousness. Because look, we've got what is in fact a weak principle. We found a whole denomination on what Paul calls weakness, but now we're really the strongest. Yeah, we're those strong folks. Now we have to b have the burden of judging and condemning everybody else who hasn't adopted our weak principle. That compounds the problem, doesn't it?
speaker-0: It s it certainly does. And then you really have a a difficulty there. But I love Paul who's very forward, very direct here. the brother who's who can eat anything, he's strong. this is the where strength lies. it doesn't matter. And the brother who or sister who who doesn't reverence one day above others. is strong, is wonderful, this is fine. So I love Paul's clarity in this matter and it it speaks to us to this day if we'll allow it to.
speaker-1: want to comment on Christ died and lived, that's important. He died and then came to life in resurrection. Die
speaker-0: yes, I like that.
speaker-1: and continue living. Yes. So the famous passage where he was put to death in the flesh, came alive in the spirit, refers to his resurrection life, had to be raised from death into life via resurrection. That being the only way in the Bible that you can come back from death by resurrection. There's no other way out of death except resurrection. Very easy.
speaker-0: Which places great importance and significance on resurrection. And and the hope lies with resurrection. and there really is a distinction between living and and being dead. It's very interesting, that's right.
speaker-1: Bottom line stuff in scripture from Genesis to Revelation.
speaker-0: Yes. Verse ten. Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or why do you despise your brother? Mm-hmm. For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. Well interesting. So he's been it looks to me like he he's mentioned why are you judging another man's servant? So recognizing that both the the weak brother and the strong brother belong to Christ. Don't judge another man's servant. Here he's using this picture of judgment too, saying, We're not the ultimate judge of of any one who trusts in Christ. Wouldn't
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-0: it be great if Christianity could learn that lesson? my goodness.
speaker-1: yeah. Yes indeed. The very things that we're exposing here, I think, as weaknesses in our systems. Why not get this right now? Why wait till judgment day when we're going to have to at least lose rewards if not be rejected because we were stubborn enough to maintain our own weak position against the advice of proper view. Let's get it right now rather than then. Yes, yes.
speaker-0: I I like this too about we're talking about the judgment seat of God and the people then who will c confess to God. these these are wonderful words. We know based on passages like Acts seventeen and thirty and thirty
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: That God is committing this judgment. It is God's judgment. It it is him that is ultimately the judgment, but he's committing the judgment to this man, Christ Jesus. He will isn't that wonderful?
speaker-1: And that man Christ Jesus is speaking to us this very day through the words of Paul.
speaker-0: The words of Paul.
speaker-1: So the judgment standards are being set here. Why not conform to that standard now rather than wait to be condemned for our weaknesses in the future?
speaker-0: Well and and think about it, Anthony, the judgment again for for the Christian will be the words of Jesus Christ again in in John twelve. That's a pivotal text I think. So we should be paying careful attention to the words of Jesus, the words of Jesus in Peter, the words of Jesus in Paul, the words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, and be ever seeking to conform to his words.
speaker-1: my fear, Dan here, is that denominationalism takes us over because of the family ties. You know, if you're brought up in a certain denomination, you've got your whole family invested this, then you're already under a test. Who who is more important to you? Is it Jesus or is it your family tradition? Yes, yes. This is a very great snare. I mean the thing that Jesus had against the Pharisees was that tradition made the Bible of no validity. So there are things and issues being exposed here which actually do attack Thankfully, do attack and correct some of the denominational stands here. This is a very serious matter.
speaker-0: I one thing I was just thinking is I don't think you would find this kind of language or the language that we found in Jesus and some of the things he was saying. You won't find those in the code of Moses' law. You won't find in the code of Moses' law the saying, well you know, actually at the end at the end of it all Here is the will of God, and that is that you don't have to elevate one day above others. It doesn't have to be done. In fact, you can be a strong brother and and not do that. So and you don't have to avoid certain meats or and so on. You're not going to find that kind of language in Moses's law. That point But here we find it in in the Torah of Christ, don't we?
speaker-1: Of course there's a huge difference between the two Torahs doesn't it? The Torah of Moses is not the Torah of Messiah. There's clearly a difference. You're going to be killed if you pick up sticks on Friday evening under that system. I doubt whether you could plead that from this panel.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: That is actually rather striking. Let people meditate and think about the enormous the the huge gap, the chasm of difference between the Torah of Moses on some points and the Torah of Messiah.
speaker-0: A remarkable difference. Yeah. Well and you know too, I was thinking, Anthony, th we're talking about here Paula's talking about that We're we're not really to ju to be the judge of one another in that sense, in that ultimate sense. Right. I'm not going to be able to say to this brother over here because he thinks that he must elevate one day above others. Yes. That he's not Christ. Right. Well he well he can be, he certainly may be, we hope so. but but I'm not the judge of that person to say you're not Christ or you don't belong to him. You certainly may, if you've trusted in Christ and our our belonging. We need to recognize that But neither are we you were mentioning about family and this kind of connection. But our family is not going to be our judge either.
speaker-1: That's
speaker-0: And our mom and dad, our our brother, our sister, our our local pastor, or our person that we revere spiritually speaking. None of those people are going to be the judge in the end of the zone. It's gonna be it's gonna be God who is our judge, yes, working through the man Christian.
speaker-1: Very words, right? Jesus in Paul is equally Jesus, the historical Jesus, his very words. But these are equally Jesus' words, right? Yes. The notion that Paul is not speaking for Jesus is fundamentally false. These are the words of Jesus in this fourteenth chapter that we're going to be judged by. So let's get it right now. Make sure we are not on the wrong side of this judgment that Paul is making. No, these apostles have enormous authority, don't they? yes. I stand in awe of Paul as the apostle.
speaker-0: And we can actually see cr Christ, we can see Jesus speaking in them. Absolutely just as we can see God speaking in Jesus.
speaker-1: Exactly. This is scripture in these words. We're reading scripture. Holy scripture.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Therefore, let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. Well Verse 14. I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself. But it is unclean for anyone who thinks it's unclean.
speaker-1: This is a staggering statement, actually. Staggering statement. Nothing is unclean. I I happen to bring out one commentary here who makes this observation. Talking about clean and unclean, the Greek word catharos is clean, akathartos is unclean. And catharos is clean. This one commentator up in front of me says this remarkable statement of Paul here in Romans fourteen undercuts the whole distinction between clean and unclean foods. on which Paul, like all other observant Jews, had been brought up. Undercuts. Hacks him to the ground. Don't let anybody then plead Leviticus eleven. Well. As a Christian standard. Isn't that amazing. Because the Apostle Paul speaking for Jesus has said that that's not right. This
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: is solemn stuff because again some of us went through a process in in earlier experience where we were terribly not observing what Paul was saying here.
speaker-0: And and I think Anthony this is very very specific language that Paul's using. Clean. Unclean. This is he's no longer talking about the guy the fellow who just wants to eat vegetables. It's not just that issue. And he's not really dealing with he's moving on really to something a little bigger picture here, isn't he? He's talking about the matter of ma things being clean i.e. clean per the law of Moses versus unclean. But Paul is telling us here remarkably. Yes. I'm persuaded.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: In who? By who? In in Christ.
speaker-1: And he's a Jew. Paul is a Jew, speaking now as a Christian, and that Jewish Christian Paul, the apostle, is saying in verse twenty later on, clarifying even verse fourteen, All things are clean, the Greek word catharos. That isn't a contradiction of Leviticus eleven. I don't know what would be where in that list there are a number of items that are a cathartos, unclean, and Paul is saying everything is catharos. If Paul meant
speaker-0: Everything is clean. This is amazing. Beautiful.
speaker-1: By this, well of course we're not we were not undermining the food laws at all. He's extraordinarily confusing. Yes.
speaker-0: He he's had a terrible absence. And one thing I like about it though is he is he's t he's saying to his readers at Rome, I didn't come up with this on my own. I'm persuaded in Christ Jesus. This he is my teacher and he's the one that has convinced me that all things are clean. Going back I think to the statement in Mark,
speaker-1: Yes, the yes, of course, as they later saw in Mark seven nineteen, thus Jesus said, although they didn't fully realize they couldn't have taken it at that time. They didn't at the time understand what he was implying. Later on they looked back and they said, as a comment, this saying of Jesus about don't fuss about washing your hands up to the elbow or whatever, thus he said cleansing all foods. Yes. Wow. That's the new covenant. Yes. Even in the words of Jesus, and if you didn't get it then You certainly get it now. In further words of Jesus in Paul that nothing is unclean of itself. you can eat snails and nails and no, no, no. We're talking specifically about food laws, clean and unclean. That's the distinction that is gone. I like that. Wow, this has potential to change whole denominations
speaker-0: powerful. I think something you were saying just now that caught my attention is Jesus was able only to bring them so much at a time for them. But he he really and I think people don't realize this or they don't grasp it when Christ came, he came to walk them as it were, out of the temporary covenant of Moses into his own eternal Torah, into his own i eternal program. And so he's he's he's helping them along the way to grasp this and they're gaining ground as they go. But sadly we have people apparently at Rome and other places who are still struggling because they don't they don't understand that they're under Torah Messiah rather than the Torah Moses now.
speaker-1: Exactly right. Often then they will appeal to a guru, you know, a guru dropped from heaven who turns out to be a better apostle than Paul. My
speaker-0: Homoc.
speaker-1: goodness, if you people in their droves pay attention to such leaders. People have visions, you know, even or special words. They've seen Jesus personally.
speaker-0: Yeah, I'm gonna.
speaker-1: Only problem is they contradicted what Jesus said here in Paul.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And and I, for one, would be ashamed to imagine that somehow I I could supersede Paul. the I I could spend a lifetime catching up to where Paul was at, I think. Again people should focus on this fourteenth verse of the fourteenth chapter until these matters have have really sunk into them and they realize how what an awesome statement is this is tremendous that that we're learning that nothing is unclean of itself.
speaker-1: It does simplify life, doesn't it? Yeah. It does make life a lot easier if you haven't got to worry about some of these issues that were important in the old in the old come, but not in the new.
speaker-0: Yes. Anthony, one thing I was thinking as we were saying that too is once again we have a situation where the brother who abstains thinks he's strong perhaps. I don't eat these unclean meats, I'm a strong brother. And here's this terrible would wannabe Christian over here who is eating these things. But in reality, Paul has set it aright as did Jesus and Mark and we're understanding all this. Yes. No no no. The the brother who who is trudging along Struggling, thinking I must not eat certain meats and all of this, and that certain foods are unclean. That brother is weak now. He does not understand the will of God in Christ Jesus. But it's interesting that the judge is not Moses. Moses will not judge you in the final judge. It is going to be God judging us in Christ Jesus. He will be the judge, not Moses.
speaker-1: That is interesting. It's it's also fascinating how the truth emerges with greater clarity in my mind as we discuss this. Yes, yes. Brings out aspects of this one hadn't thought of. When you think that later in the New Testament, Paul warns against those who forbid marriage. yes. And that forbids the eating and drinking, I think also of things which God did not condemn. yes, yes. So we have an awful situation here. You can find a whole denomination. On no marriage for the clergy, or i enforced vegetarianism, which are weaknesses, and yet a whole denomination arises.
speaker-0: That you must honor one day above others. Exactly. or that you must treat some foods as unclean. This is it's really unfortunate. It's terrible.
speaker-1: Horribly divisive, isn't it?
speaker-0: But I I think Paul is looking at there's a di in the case you brought up out of Timothy, there's a great difference that Paul is seeing when he has there's a brother here who thinks he he will not marry, maybe he thinks he even should not marry, I don't know. But God can work with that. Sure. But when when we get to Timothy, there's another matter. When you begin to teach others this is what you must do. Paul is saying to Timothy, this can be teachings of devils. Yes. This is another matter. This is very serious. And and likewise then the brother who thinks he he should not eat certain foods because they're unclean, he's weak. And God can work with that. But when you begin to make that a doctrine and and push that
speaker-1: Everybody else.
speaker-0: Then his words to Timothy come into play. A very different picture. No, these are doctrines of devils. refrain from this this terrible that that this not marrying business. Once it it reaches that point, it's a different matter and it becomes very
speaker-1: And what in d in fact did happen was those warnings were not heeded. So you do have a whole denomination eschewing marriage for the clergy. Yes, yes. You have the notion that Mary never had normal relations with with her husband. my goodness, yes. These became huge issues, now affecting billions of people generation after generation, all because of a failure actually to observe what Paul said to us, what Jesus said to us in Paul, in these various passages. So what you said there w was exactly right in Colossians two. Here it's a matter of getting the weak to move forward generally. Yes, yes. In Colossians two it's a very he changes his tone Yes. Where th somebody's trying to impose this on the whole of the Christian Brotherhood.
speaker-0: Then it becomes utterly serious then, terribly serious.
speaker-1: We have a lot of repenting to do as a Christian community now.
speaker-0: Goodness. But imagine if everyone could ever get on the same page with these matters. Imagine what Christianity could be. Christianity could become what Christ meant for it to be, if if we could ever do that. But we're not going to be but the you know, this this this congregation of God is not built upon Moses and the seventy elders of of Israel. It's built upon Jesus Christ, the apostles. this you know, Ephesians is clarifying. Yes. Moses is not what we're building on here. Exactly. and we find that again of course in Matthew sixteen. Yes. We're building on this foundation that Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, our leader and our teacher. He is our teacher, not Moses. Well that's
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: It's tremendous. Verse fifteen. For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you're no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. Verse sixteen. So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Wow. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness and peace and joy and in the Holy Spirit. Verse eighteen. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. nineteen. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. Wow.
speaker-1: That's very clear. He's gone back to his original point. But he then very cleverly says, That is weakness. He's going to change his tone a little bit in verse twenty when we get there. He's convinced that nothing is unclean. Yes, yes. So he sets the standard.
speaker-0: Yes. And he doesn't veer from it. He's not just
speaker-1: Not a not for a moment.
speaker-0: because a brother is weaker has a problem with it, he's not going to change the principle of truth that underlies these matters.
speaker-1: You'd think though that after two thousand years we could get beyond this. Yes,
speaker-0: I would think so.
speaker-1: if you're in the first century I see that. And I still see it because we do meet people who have been taught, you know, that such and such is a no no. Well let's go carefully with that. Let's not force anything on them. Sure. My goodness, this is terrifying. And we're two thousand years on. Can we not learn these easy lessons?
speaker-0: Like oftentimes people have been very sincere, as these weak brothers were, indeed. Very very dedicated to the Lord, wanting to please God.
speaker-1: absolutely.
speaker-0: In a way they're almost like children who have been abused. Yes. they they've been abused by the gurus and by the systems who have been imposing on them these matters and telling them you must treat certain foods as unclean in order to please God. Terrible untruth. But we've imposed that the the religious program out here often has imposed that on weak brothers. And then these these weak children, unfortunately, grow up as it were, and impose So it gets perpetuated.
speaker-1: It does.
speaker-0: You must honor one day above others. Not true at all. And I love the way Paul handles it.
speaker-1: It's changed awfully well with it. Yes. Then we should say that it's a matter of spiritual surgery to change a long-standing tradition where a beloved Sunday school teacher or grandmother has convinced you that you mustn't do this or you mustn't do that. To interfere with that is major surgery. We should recognize that. We're all prone to hang on at all costs to what some esteemed teacher told us until another view comes along which we must consider. Yes. and take seriously and consider the merits of the other view as well.
speaker-0: And and then I think we would ask no one to to hear us because mm it's up,
speaker-1: No.
speaker-0: but we certainly would ask everyone hear Jesus in Paul, hear Jesus in Peter, right, hear Jesus in these men who are who is bringing to us the knowledge and the understanding that under Torah Messiah
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: everything has changed. All of this other was a shadow, if you will, of what was really to come.
speaker-1: It's very clear. And also consider the awful fact each one of us should consider this. We might be the one dividing the church. yes. Horror of horrors. With our little hang up that we learn from some beloved teacher, that's wrong we could be responsible for dividing Christendom. That's wrong. That's a very serious issue.
speaker-0: And and for as a i isn't it kind of the a terrible enigma enigmatic matter that that a weak brother yeah thinks his strong brother is is wanton and doing terribly wrong and condemns the strong brother, when in reality it's the weak brother that's bringing the problem to the table to begin with is
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: and isn't it interesting then, once y our eyes begin to get open to these things? it's not so difficult to see. It actually turns out to be everywhere. The but our the the guru that I am enamored with it's interesting. I don't realize he's a guru guru when I'm enamored with him. It it doesn't come across. That's right. but if someone is is telling me as a Christian that I need to keep the law of Moses and be circumcised to be saved, or keep the law of Moses and not be circumcised, which is actually pretty ridiculous. A in inappropriate teacher of matters and a guru that I'm giving myself to. If someone is coming along and they're t the they're teaching that I should esteem one day above another, you must do that. That may well be a guru I'm following rather than a true man of God. Or he comes along and says, now certain meats are unclean because Moses said
speaker-1: Yes, yes.
speaker-0: That may be a guru I'm grown up with. Right. And he may take a a toll on my life, on the life of my family. It would be an unfortunate.
speaker-1: Or even, dare I say, somebody says that water baptism is irrelevant in the New Covenant, or that all nine gifts belong to every Christian all the time.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Again, such views are so unknown to serious commentary for two thousand years. Can we not have the humility to say, wait a minute, I could just be wrong and I got that from a guru whose qualifications were probably suspect anyway. That's the time to be warned. That's where the red flag should go.
speaker-0: Well, and you have to begin to think too as a as a Christian. If if this person I'm following is not even recognizing that all foods are now declared clean by Christ Jesus, and that's being affirmed here by Paul again, then does that person really have a grasp that he should be teaching others? He needs to be taught himself, as it were. And if you have someone coming along, you must elevate one day above others. That person does he do I really want to listen to him about other issues? Or someone as you say, if I I I have a a guru that that that is up teaching and saying, you don't need to be baptized in water or that is so unbiblical, untrue and this covenant of Messiah, baptism in water is such an obvious part of this program and they they don't understand that.
speaker-1: And they've got their one verse though. They got their one verse. That would contradict the whole of church history and the rest of the Bible. Doesn't matter, they've got their one verse.
speaker-0: But we have to balance the scriptures and get these issues right. And think about it. If if if I'm following someone who thinks I'm supposed to be keeping certain food restrictions, I may be following someone who doesn't understand scripture very well overall. What other errors or problems they also maybe certainly looked at the
speaker-1: At least that possibility should be countenance reality. Yes. And a lot of prayer and study go into it, you know. And honest heart searching, soul searching before God. I like the prayer of Greg Dybel in his book, you know, they didn't teach me this in church. It's a wonderful title, but his prayer there is, God, if I am deceived, please send somebody to undeceive me. What more can you do? That's right. A lot of lives have been changed with that prayer by
speaker-0: I like that a lot. Paul has been saying here again, he's talking about the practicalities, if you will, of Christians dealing with Christians in issues like these. And one of the things that he's cautioning in what we just read, I think, is that do walk in love and realize that your weak brother, because he thinks something is wrong, He does really have a problem. Yes. And until he can walk out of that, if he can until he can reach the point he can come beyond that, he does have a conscience that is troubled, if you will, yeah by that. And Paul says, let's be sensitive to the weak brothers brother's problem here and don't just run roughshod over him. Yes. Let's be careful, let's be sensitive, and don't use our freedom, which we have. That's right. That that word that we've talked about so much. Talks about so much, the freedom we have in Christ. Don't use the freedom which allows us to to count all days as equal before God. I all days would be holy before him. don't you don't use the freedom to recognize that all foods are clean. Don't use it to run roughshod over your brother, beat him down or say you're not of Christ or or because you're going to cause this weak brother to be offended. Don't do that. Let's be careful and how we work with with folks of this line and And he's even cautioned the weak brothers. Now don't be condemning the strong brothers. But I've often thought he's still he never wavers about the weakness and the strength. He's not gonna just say, Well, let's be kind to one another, therefore there is no such thing as weakness. No, he's calling it out for what it is. And
speaker-1: Put. That's very well put. Yes. The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. That's as as if to say Christianity, the faith. The Christian faith, the kingdom of God, that's another name for it, is not primarily a matter of eating and drinking, clearly. But it is a matter of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit right now. People have used this verse to denounce ninety nine percent of the kingdom verses, which clearly refer to a future kingdom. So Paul is speaking generally here, and there's no question that Christianity is all about the kingdom. It's all about the gospel of the kingdom. And our preparation for that future kingdom is indeed a lifestyle that involves joy and peace in the Holy Spirit. That's right. But people have this maddening habit of using one verse to destroy the evidence of
speaker-0: Wave off a a whole wonderful body of verses. That's tragic.
speaker-1: Luke seventeen twenty one, you know, the kingdom of God is within you. Probably a mistranslation in the King James, a difficult verse. But to use that as your your fundamental proof text is terribly misleading when there are ninety nine other verses which clearly say the kingdom of God is something you haven't inherited.
speaker-0: None of us.
speaker-1: Many verses say we're going to inherit the kingdom when Christ comes back.
speaker-0: It's a it's a forward looking issue.
speaker-1: But Paul with this wonderful grasping the totality, the Hebraic mind does that. He's not troubled, you know, with all the hair splitting arguments we come up with. And so you can say Christianity is all about the kingdom. Of course it is. It's all about having peace and joy when you believe in the gospel of the kingdom. But don't use this verse actually this happened to me in classroom yesterday when immediately this verse was forthcoming. As
speaker-0: okay.
speaker-1: the definitive defining umbrella text for the whole of the Kingdom of God gospel, and that's just wrong.
speaker-0: I liked your comment there too, Anthony, earlier when you were saying that a person operating with an uneducated con conscience. it's a it's a sad situation. They don't understand what the truth of God's will is. So they're operating in ways that that their conscience then is very susceptible then. absolutely.
speaker-1: vulnerable to all sorts of weaknesses.
speaker-0: Verse twenty Do not for the sake of food destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean. But it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. Verse 21. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. twenty two. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself in what he approves. But whoever doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith, for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. Wow, this is power once again, it seems to me that Paul is counseling the strong brother. Be careful around your weak brother because you don't he has a your weak brother does have a problem and it's quite serious. If he thinks that it is wrong for him to eat certain meats, it's wrong. That weak brother in that state is vulnerable. Yeah. And if he is eating those meats, he's going to feel condemned in himself. And this is a a terribly unfortunate situation. So it seems to me that Paul is counseling kindness. Yes. Then he's counseling at least some measure of accommodation. Yes. Don't don't perhaps invite your weak brother over your house and say, weak brother has a problem with pork. He misunderstands that he thinks he's not supposed to eat pork. Of course. Don't Men serve him up by great helping support, perhaps. this is that's right. This is not a good idea. That's exactly right. For one brother to to manage with another. But I do think accommodation is only possible in some degree because to some degree we're going to we're going to find that I have one brother over here who thinks that it's it's terrible to do a certain thing. And another brother over here who has an opposite opinion, I can't accommodate them both. you know, it's
speaker-1: That's a great point. And it strikes me also, backing up your point there, he says in twenty two, the faith which you have as your own conviction, have it before God. Don't tell anybody else, well, wait a minute, Paul, you've just been telling me
speaker-0: You've been telling everybody.
speaker-1: where we really are. Isn't that isn't that wonderful? That's right. And I see that. At one level, that's right. But at another level, it's a scandal that we cannot move into into strength from weakness with the apostle laying it out for us very clearly.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And and Paul's the thrust of everything Paul is saying carries the weight of that. He he's carrying this understanding that if you think you should only eat vegetables or you think you must elevate one day above others, or you think that you that certain foods are unclean, you are weak. That's right. That is a weakness. And so he's declaring it forthrightly. But then he's counseling, come on folks, let's let's work together here. And the one who is strong and realizes that you don't have to elevate one day above others and to please God. That that's not it. You don't have to eat only vegetables or you must treat certain foods as unclean. That brother who understands these things is the better off because he's not gonna fall into traps where he may find that his his weak conscience is then ensnared in these matters. So the strong brothers Better off. It's wonderful. But be careful how you deal in in situations with that brother who is weak. That's right. And and help him to come along. And maybe read to him Paul's words in Romans fourteen. And maybe that will help the weak brother to begin to break through this this error, this confusion.
speaker-1: Not to mention the cultural differences in our world now. I I'm seeing this drinking wine thing. I don't think it's drinking grape juice. you're not going to offend anybody with that. May or may not wish to drink wine. You go to Europe and you say, I'm a Christian, I don't touch that awful alcohol, you've lost your witness immediately. In America that would not be so you have to allow for huge differences of culture. This is gonna take some very careful a lot of wisdom.
speaker-0: A lot of wisdom and understand but I think that wisdom would begin with us by reading and carefully yes following and understanding yes these words in Romans fourteen.
speaker-1: And what about looking at the example of Jesus? That might be a good idea.
speaker-0: Yes, yes indeed. That's right. But I love this. I think one thing that I was thinking as we were reading this chapter too is it's not always just the brother who thinks you must elevate one day above others and and the and it's not always just the brother who's who's has problems, doesn't understand about the all foods are now clean which Paul has clearly discussed and Jesus also brought that out. they don't understand that it's not always that. It it may be a brother who says, now we must wear sleeves on our garments to a certain length. Or we as we were discussing earlier, you can't you can't wear a mustache. Or if you wear one it can only be a certain length. Isn't that creating For a kind of situation. We're creating our own problems, yeah.
speaker-1: Yes, and then you must touch this holy wall to be right.
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. Only this holy water will will do it. This is a substitute though for real faith. it's when the rest of your faith system is so frail you grasp at these straws to make you feel good. Yes, yes. And that's I think Jesus was against that.
speaker-0: We we create a program in which we can impose upon ourselves our own sense of approval. And we say, I don't eat those those unclean meats. I'm a good Christian. And but we're we're proving ourselves, unfortunately, it's not what God desires. You know, one thing, I once spoke on this matter in Romans fourteen in I think entitled what I was saying Errors for Christ. And I think it's important that a person recognize that when you're looking at these issues, we're looking at issues which are in states of confusion in the minds of Christian people. And it is a serious problem, it's a great difficulty. The person who has the the confusion is weak. Weak is not something you ever want to be in crime.
speaker-1: Not permanently.
speaker-0: But but the type of weakness they have here they're doing things that are not really in harmony with the will of God, but they're doing them thinking. In their hearts that they're doing the will of God. So for that reason, God can still work with this person and help bring them along and love that person and cause them to stand, as it were. I think here we're talking about people who really love the Lord, love God, have a problem, have confusion, and God can work with them because their error, their misunderstanding, is for in their minds, it's for Christ. And God then can be kind to that person. But God forbid that that person would turn and begin to teach these things to others and say, You must all do this, because then you begin to run into this problem we've been talking about in Timothy. and it becomes a severe problem. Because everybody you're going to cause everyone to be infected, everyone then becomes weak, and this is not edifying. It talks about the upbuilding of the body of Christ.
speaker-1: I think following what you're saying there, the letters to the churches in Revelation would be a very a good place for people to go because that's exactly the issue. How do you correct the church? Not not bring people in from outside, but how do you correct the errors in the church? Jesus is pretty tough there too. And so
speaker-0: he is.
speaker-1: once the knowledge of the truth comes to people, then I think they are under responsibility to change.
speaker-0: That's right.
speaker-1: And he's very hard on you. Some of you there teaching so and so, he says in Revelation two and three. That's gotta stop. yes, yes. Because you're gonna be losing your crown if you don't
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: desist from erroneous teaching. But at the same time, you're absolutely right. Deal gently with the weak.
speaker-0: Certainly. And so wow, this fourteenth chapter is just absolutely chuck full of wonderful words, tremendous wisdom. Very relevant. I don't see how we could be very effective as Christians without putting some thought into this fourteenth chapter of Romans. It's fantastic. And as you say, very relevant to us.
speaker-1: Highlight.
