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Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.
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This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.
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Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
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I Am Jean Taver Netti, the host for this podcast.
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And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
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A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
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Only stuff that works My guest this morning is Dr. John Ali, the executive director and founder of John Ali Consulting.
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With over 15 years of experience, Dr. Ali has become a trusted partner to school communities across the nation, specializing in data driven systems, targeted interventions, and inclusive practices.
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Her expertise extends from personalized coaching and professional development to delivering inspiring keynotes that empower educators and leaders to make a lasting impact.
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Jonna, welcome!
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Great to have you today.
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Jana Lee: I'm so excited to be here.
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Gene Tavernetti: Well, Jonna and I'll tell you where Jonna and I met, and of course we had kind of cross paths on, on social media as people do, but it was at a conference recently and the name of her session, I think was data driven something.
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Jana Lee: Data driven Decisions by Design.
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Gene Tavernetti: Data driven because you are the data.
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I mean, you really are known as the data person.
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And so, so I was with a friend.
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And well, we went to go see, and I have to tell you, I'm not excited about a lot of sessions, but, you know, I just met you and I go, I'm going to go, I'm
going to go support my new friend, and I'm thinking, I am not going to be interested in this data driven thing here, but you talk about it differently.
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And you talk about it in a way that, okay, we connect it.
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so you're the data person.
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So, but how do you talk about data as opposed to other people kind of look at data in your mind?
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Jana Lee: I like to talk about it as this non scary concept that doesn't need to require more time, energy and resources.
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I like to think of it as almost formalizing what teachers and leaders are already doing in their practices and just drawing more attention to those moments of opportunity to collect data and then do something with it.
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So many teachers can collect the data, but it's what happens next that often goes missing.
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And so I try to make it this very nonchalant kind of, Hey, listen, you're already doing it.
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We just have to formalize this a little bit.
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You know, and with leaders, I really encourage them to take closer look at that microdata that's happening in the classroom so that they can best support their teachers and therefore best support students.
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Gene Tavernetti: So I think that's, was the distinction that.
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Allowed me to be more opening to listening to you was the idea that you talked about microdata versus what other people think of data, how, when you first start talking about it, how do you find people are thinking about the data that they're looking at?
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Jana Lee: Right.
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I think that from a leadership perspective, oftentimes leaders look at what I call macro data.
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So those you know, performance assessments, state exams, diagnostics, benchmarks, overarchingly, you know, where are our students on the spectrum in terms of reading writing.
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And math.
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And yes, leaders should be able to speak to that macro data, but what gets lost are the opportunities to take a finer look at micro data.
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So even when, you're going to hear me say data and data, because now I have that in my mind, because we were talking before
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Gene Tavernetti: And so that
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Jana Lee: this Even from a teacher perspective, teachers often look at benchmarks, and benchmark assessments, I would consider still an aspect of the overarching data that speaks to our student performance.
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And what we don't take as fine of a look at is that micro assessment.
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I'm not even talking about formative assessment when I talk about micro, I'm talking about, The check for understanding.
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And that's where teachers are able to identify what is it, what skill or strategy is the student struggling with, and what am I going to do to ensure that I'm closing the gap as it relates to that.
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Skill or strategy, right then and there, as opposed to waiting for time to go by having to redo their lessons and modify their plans in order to catch those students up.
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It all happens within a lesson.
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And so when leaders begin to take a closer look at that micro data collection, then the macro data is not a surprise.
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They know what to expect overarchingly because they have a pulse on What students are struggling with and their the areas of growth that are happening on the classroom on a regular everyday basis.
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Gene Tavernetti: microdata, you're talking about checking for understanding, that is all the data, all the checking for understanding multiple times frequently during instruction, not, so, so there is, so, so some people call that what do they call
it, responsive teaching, some people, I just call it teaching, you know, it's good it's just kind of, it's just kind of good teaching, but it presupposes something, and it presupposes that there is a lot of checking for understanding to collect this.
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And so when you are working with staffs, you're working and I know that you, your background was in special education do you have to do a lot of work with teachers to get them to actually collect that data to actually do some checking for understanding?
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Or not some, a lot?
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Jana Lee: So it's interesting, Jean, because so often they're already doing it, but we tend to see it not done in a way that fosters the immediate response.
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So, for example, let's set the scene.
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You've got a teacher who's who's got students in the room working independently on a task.
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What we tend to see is the teacher circulating and providing individualized feedback while students are working.
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What I focus most on with teachers is getting them to kind of zip their lips while students are working and instead circulate knowing what the teacher is looking for from the student.
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And in response to what they see, grab a small group of students to work on very explicitly on that skill or strategy or task as opposed to supporting the students while they're working.
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When teachers are circulating and providing feedback, we tend to see teachers help students through the problem as opposed to supporting them with the skill that they're struggling in.
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So when we pull students in a small group, you're going to get, the teacher's going to get more time with those students and then be able to focus on the student.
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So that students can go back to the table and still work independently, but with that reteach or remodel and closed learning gap that just happened in that targeted remediation.
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And I think the idea of pulling a small group while you've got a number of students in your class is not necessarily explicitly taught in pre service training or taught.
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to teachers nowadays.
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And so I do spend a lot of my time getting them to say, hey, listen, just because the curriculum doesn't say that you can pull a small group, it doesn't mean you can't pull a small group.
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Gene Tavernetti: but yeah, it's I hadn't heard you say that before in that way, but I've heard me say that very in a very similar fashion.
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And one of the things I tell teachers as as they're walking around trying to help somebody is that there's nothing you could do in a minute.
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or 30 seconds to teach that student that skill.
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The only thing you could do is what you just described is to help them do that problem, but that's not what you're after.
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And in addition to that, if you do spend the time that student needs, what's everybody else doing?
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So, so I think the way you describe it is, you know, see what the data are, from it, from a number of students.
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And then, yeah, then, because We, here's another thing that I want your opinion on that I tell people don't say that all students learn differently.
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No, they don't learn differently.
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They, you know, guess what?
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I just looked at the data and the dataset.
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I should pull a group because they all have the same issue.
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What do you think about that?
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Especially in Ed, in, in special ed?
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What does instruction look like?
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You know?
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Jana Lee: Sure.
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So there's actually some research that came out recently over the last couple of years that shared that there's truly no such thing as like learning styles.
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So the idea that a student is a visual learner, the idea that a student is a tactile learner or kinesthetic or an auditory.
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We all learn in all of those ways.
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So when we're supporting students, I try to work with teachers around, try to get them out of thinking of students In a box in terms of, well, they're an auditory learner.
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So I'm going to provide this text through, you know, I'm going to also provide a the auditory tape recorded, if that's a thing, still tape recorded, but auditory version of the text, right?
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Because they're an auditory learner.
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As opposed to saying, okay, pump the brakes a moment.
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Before we go ahead and provide all of these scaffolds and all this differentiation, I'm not saying don't do those things, but I'm saying how do we
know that the student needs those things to access this particular skill strategy, objective, target, task, whatever you want to call it, right?
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Let's keep that in our back pocket for when we need it.
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So, when we use the data, And we're able to identify whether it's through a turn and talk, whether it's through a quick comprehension question, whether it's problem
number three on the math homework, on the math sheet, whatever that check for understanding is, let's save the way in which we allow students to access the content.
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based on who we see needs it.
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And so I think good instruction to your point earlier about it being responsive and teachers having to you know, recognize the gaps that students are facing.
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We need to be able to support students with where they're at.
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That productive struggle, that rigor, all of those buzzwords that we're hearing, that doesn't happen unless you've collected information
on the student that lets you know that they need that auditory, you know, version of the tape in order to better understand and comprehend.
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Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
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Let's back up a little bit.
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So that description of pulling a group that pulling a group, it's irrelevant what the size, the initial size of the group is.
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You can have a group of seven in a, in California, we might call it special day class.
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I don't know what it's called.
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You know, where you work.
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And I'm still pulling a group of three because every objective, every lesson, you can't predict how people are, you know, how the kids are going to do.
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It could be that, so that grouping is going to be fluid, what I'm trying to say.
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Jana Lee: Absolutely.
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And not to cut you off, Jean, but I think oftentimes we pull groups based on, I see teachers pulling groups based on preconceived notions,
based on, they use it as a behavior management tool based on what they think the student knows, based on if the student has an IEP or not.
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And so when those are the ways that we're pulling groups, our groups tend to become homogeneous and not based on the skills or strategies that they truly are struggling with.
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I call it catch and release.
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So I'm going to catch the students who need this support right now based on that check for understanding, and then I'm going to give them another independent moment.
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to demonstrate their proficiency.
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Hopefully after that reteach or that remodel or the clarification, I'm going to release them and they're going to show that they can now work on that skill independently.
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I'm going to hold on to the students who have not yet shown that independent proficiency.
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And so when we continuously catch and release, we're not using our preconceived notions or what we think our students are capable of as a means for or as the reason why we're pulling them into our small group.
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Gene Tavernetti: Okay, so when we, so you just described how, We may not do that well.
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Create that group effectively, efficiently.
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How does that impact?
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And I know you work on MPSS with with schools.
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How does that impact?
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Does that influence a teacher?
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And who is going to go on to the, to level two instruction?
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Or
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Jana Lee: Yeah, I mean if you were to look at MTSS, I think that there's two types of MTSS.
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that we see going on.
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There's MTSS, the pronoun, which is more the formalized approach to supporting students.
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So we're either pulling students out for intervention, or we have a push in model that's based on benchmark data that we're collecting.
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But And while that's important, and we should have that, and especially with early intervention, what I think we're missing is the MTSS that can happen in the tier one or co taught classrooms.
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So what am I talking about?
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Tier two, if we look at our tiers, tier two would be pulling that small group.
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Right?
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Within the within the tier one or the co taught classroom, tier three would be the one on one support that the students still need.
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So when we go back to catch and release, the longer you hold on to a student, the more so you shift to the tier three supports until eventually you've collected enough support.
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data and you're tracking it in a way to say, okay, I know when we get back to this skill or we get back to this standard, I'm going to immediately pull this student for a one on one or I know that this student
needs some additional support with these, you know, set of skills because They still didn't understand it after working with them for some time in that one on one, you know, one on one setting in the classroom.
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It can all happen in the classroom, but it requires teachers to be able to rework their curriculum, not change their curriculum, but be willing to take a lesson and say, okay how do I need to like a puzzle?
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How am I going to, you know, potentially rework some of the pieces of my lesson to ensure that students have.
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I'm going to give you a number of minutes to explore the content independently, to collaborate, to meet with me in that small group and independently showcase their proficiency.
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We're seeing right now, not to move this to, you know, student behaviors, but there, I don't go a single day without hearing from either a leader or a teacher that student behaviors are important.
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Pre K, Kindergarten, yes in the secondary in terms of the anxiety and the dysregulation, but more so in those younger grades, student behaviors are wild.
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And so we need to look at how many minutes in that lesson do we have teachers standing up there and talking whole group instruction.
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We need to take a second look at that.
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Why are you laughing?
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Do you, because
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Gene Tavernetti: you know, I'm laughing because I agree.
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And it is so evident.
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One of the jokes I tell about this, you know, I, you know, we all know that kindergarten teachers teach on the carpet, right?
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The kids are on the carpet.
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And I said, here's what I want you to do.
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If you've never taught kindergarten, go into a kindergarten classroom.
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And as soon as the kids sit down, look at your watch.
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And in seven minutes, here's what every kindergarten teacher says.
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On your bottoms, crisscross applesauce hands to yourself.
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Why?
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Because they're done.
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They're done talking.
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And then all the behaviors manifest at that time.
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And I think that's why I was laughing because, yeah, I absolutely agree.
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And you, and somebody asked me about the research, you know, about that recently, about how long is it?
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Just watch.
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Just look.
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They're telling you.
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I'm done.
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Jana Lee: I think there's a I think it's two minutes for every age, but even that I think is too long.
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You know, I think that we have to be able to look at the lessons and rework the lessons where students are engaging with the content and teachers are okay with pulling
a small group to allow for targeted Remediation, but again, that all comes down to that check for understanding and I'm still waiting for any of your listeners.
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I'm still waiting for a curriculum that is explicitly says this is your check for understanding and then based on this I want you to do
this for the students who got it, this for the students who almost got it, and these for this for the students who did not yet get it.
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I'm looking for the curriculum that has that outlined for teachers.
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I don't know.
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Have you seen it, Jean?
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Gene Tavernetti: I don't, you know, when I've worked with teachers, I haven't gone to the to what's the prescription, but what I have gone to is most teachers use some sort of whether it's a slide deck of some kind.
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And I said, And then I'll ask him, I said, what are they supposed to know at this point in the lesson to be able to continue?
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And then I'll say, okay, great.
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Just put that in your slide.
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Because now you will never forget to check for understanding, but if you don't put it there, that's the first thing you forget.
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And not only do you forget, and the other thing that I tell them about to check it for understanding, is that especially put those really good questions, you know, the right there questions you could think off the top of your head.
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You know, what did we just do?
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What did you, that's easy.
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What's, what do you want them to be thinking about here?
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And then But I haven't seen that next step about what to do next, and I'm hoping that in the lesson design allows them to say, well, I need to go back here, or I need to continue or I'm putting this in my head for when I pull the small group.
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I don't,
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Jana Lee: I hope so too, and I haven't, I have not yet seen it.
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And you know, I think that we, the education has become accustomed to using the macro data pieces as the means for, Supporting our students whether it's again through those specific
interventions or, you know, for folks who are lucky enough to have a tutor you know, but what we're doing isn't working clearly because our, the achievement gap is widening.
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And so the goal of the check for understanding is that before that gap widens, you're able to.
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To close it right then and there in the classroom, as opposed to being hamsters on a wheel where you constantly feel like you're having to catch up.
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I mean, I remember being in the classroom before I was ingrained in this practice of check for understanding.
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I'd give an exit slip.
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I'd give the exit slip.
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I'd collect the exit slip.
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now I have to like, look at these things right and they would see the clipboard and then I would look at them I'd get really sad when like no one understood what I taught and then I'd be like, now I have to go back and figure out when am I going to.
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reteach this, right?
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Or when am I going to support the seven students who didn't understand it, all based on the exit ticket?
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So, you know, that's the, and that's what we're used to.
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That's the game that we play in terms of assessing students on the spot and then having to find a time later to be able to close those gaps.
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And all we want to do, you know, I try to explain it as taking the exit ticket and just.
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Bump it up.
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Bump it up.
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Leave yourself some time to be able to support those students right then and there.
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Gene Tavernetti: no, and I'm laughing again because I, you know, I've just said it a little bit differently.
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You know, they say the exit slip, we gotta do an next slip.
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You know what?
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Continue to do the exit slip, but don't be surprised.
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You should already know what's on the exit slip because you can't live your life.
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You can't plan your life.
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based on what these eight year olds are going to tell you, you know, or 12 or 15 or whenever, you should already know, which is your point about collecting that, that data with the check for understanding.
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Jana Lee: And it requires teachers to be able to go in and look for three things.
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What am I looking for?
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So what do my students know?
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Now, what am I going to do?
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That cycle of what am I looking for?
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So what do my students know?
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And now, what am I going to do based on that?
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And I try to try to support teachers in bringing that cycle to life in their lessons.
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And to your point earlier, part of it, a non negotiable has to be them to identify what it is they're looking for, put it on a slide, put the question on the slide, that will allow them to you know, better chances in bringing it to life.
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Absolutely.
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Gene Tavernetti: You're the data person.
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I might be calling you the micro data person from now on because those three questions, aren't those the same questions or the same type of questions that you're going to bring to a PLC?
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Jana Lee: That actually, when we talk about professional learning communities and we talk about teachers being able to engage in student artifacts and student work,
teachers have to know what it is, what is the skill that we are looking to close in order to know what to look at when it comes to digging into student artifacts.
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I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've worked with a PLC, teachers have brought student work, let's just take a writing sample, even a paragraph.
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It is so easy to look at that paragraph and for a teacher's mind to just go running with all of the things.
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That could be possibly edited or revised or fixed in this paragraph.
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And what ends up happening, teachers will provide feedback, whether it's on Google Document or in the notes.
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You think students are going back to that and being like, Okay, let me remember all of the things that, you know, Ms. Lee just told me that I needed to change.
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No way!
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So the PLC is a great time to say, okay, even though we want to fix this entire paragraph, we're looking at just relevant details.
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And so when the ELA teacher is looking at relevant details, and the social studies teacher is looking at relevant details, and the math teacher, because in math, students are now having to justify their responses, right?
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When the math teacher is ensuring that there's a detail to support the answer, same thing with the science teacher.
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Collectively, that student is far more likely.
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to walk away within the next six to eight weeks having be far more likely to be able to provide relevant details because there's a consistency from classroom to classroom, from lesson to lesson.
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Everybody in that PLC has determined next steps to help support and close the gap of relevant details.
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And so that consistency allows the student to automate the skill necessary to select relevant details.
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But it takes a professional learning community to know what to look for and to develop next steps cohesively and collectively, all based around a skill, in order to make that leap and bring it into the classroom to support student gaps.
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Gene Tavernetti: I'm sorry I keep smiling Johnna but it, Again, it goes back to micro being able to because that's all you can teach.
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You can't teach how to make the whole essay better.
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You can only teach a certain piece.
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Well, you can, you will over time, but today we need to focus on that certain skill.
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Is that difficult?
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Cause I know you do a lot of work with PLCs.
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Is that difficult?
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Well, it's not only PLC work.
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It's going to be.
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It's going to relate to the MTSS, what skills that, you know, how are we going to teach these skills to the kids?
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Yeah, so,
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Jana Lee: all connected in terms of the PLC.
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I have found that a lot of it comes down.
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We cannot two things.
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We cannot make assumptions that teachers know how to do this work in their PLCs, right?
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We can't make assumptions that teachers know how to dig into data and you know, do a data dive.
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Simultaneously, we need to ensure that the proper systems and procedures are in place so that PLC time is efficient, productive, and leads itself or lends itself to best next steps.
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As a leader, while a leader hopefully is not leading those PLCs, if the norms and expectations for before, during, and after a meeting are set and solidified, a leader
should not be leading those PLCs, but instead is able to grab onto the PLC takeaways and ensure that it's coming into practice with the interventions and the MTSS supports.
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So the two work harmoniously When everybody is on the same page and the systems are in place for communication, for agenda and next step setting.
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I mean, even as far as setting up a a Google folder where the leader can slide in there and see what are the PLCs working on.
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What are their established next steps?
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What skills are we looking at?
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And how can I, as a leader, whether it's MTSS work, whether it's walk through feedback, right?
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Whether it's one on one conversations with teachers, how can I support this work to not only strengthen the PLC, but also strengthen classroom practice.
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And when teachers begin to see the thread between everything that they're doing, they're far more likely to buy into the work and be motivated because they won't feel like it's just one thing after the next, all stacking up in different silos.
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Everything is very interconnected.
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And not only will that best improve our teacher practice, but it will also help our students thrive academically.
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socially and emotionally.
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Gene Tavernetti: you know, you just said a whole lot about PLCs and we'll put it in the notes for the show, but I know that you have a blog about PLCs and about everything
that you just talked about, and so they can go there on your resource page on your website and see that because that was a ton there, what you had to say, all important.
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One of the things that I have found, and you're no exception, is that so many of the folks who I. You know, are copacetic.
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They say that in New Jersey,
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Jana Lee: What is the word?
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Not
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Gene Tavernetti: copacetic,
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Jana Lee: so much, not around here.
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Gene Tavernetti: okay.
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But, you know, actually, you know, think alike, have had some sort of athletic experience or coaching experience.
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And you were, and I remember in your session you had played both college and professional athlete.
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How, you even gave an example from soccer, I think, in your.
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You know, how did, how does that bit, how did that experience inform how you teach and how you consult?
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Jana Lee: the analogy, just quickly for your listeners, I was probably 10 years old and I had a coach who back in the day, this is when
like coaches would yell and scream and it seemed to work or so we thought and we were supposed to pass with the outside of our foot.
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I, for whatever reason, was having trouble passing with the outside of our foot.
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And so he grabbed three of us who couldn't do it, showed us how to do it really explicitly.
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This is how you do it.
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And like, showed us right then and there and then sent us back in, and sure enough, after seeing it in that small group, little did he know that he pulled a small group, but after seeing it in the small group, I was able to do it.
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And so that analogy, that has stuck with me because when we talk about using data to pull a small group, it goes back to what I said earlier.
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It's like, not that serious.
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We don't have to think of it as this really big to do.
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It really can just be knowing what you're looking for.
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That's that what.
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So what do my students know, right?
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So that coach was able to see who got what, and now what am I going to do about it?
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In that scenario, the coach pulled us to the side and showed us how to do it.
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And so that would be the cycle the low prep, sustainable cycle that I look to bring into teachers and support them with bringing into their classrooms.
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And so I use it as the analogy because it just, I don't know, it just stuck with me in terms of, wow, this small group instruction really can happen at any time, at any place with any you know, any angry,
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Gene Tavernetti: Any content so, okay, talk for a moment about instruction how instruction differs.
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So I'm a general ed teacher and I have a group of kids in my classroom with IEPs.
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How do I need to think about those kids differently to provide instruction?
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How do you, when you take a look at that tier one instruction, how do you talk about that with teachers?
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Jana Lee: So it's funny you say that, Jane, because I tell teachers not to look at it differently until the data says that you need to look at it differently.
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So, of course, there are accommodations and modifications in the IEP that are sort of non negotiable, right?
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Preferential seating, which I could spend like a whole other I could spend a lot of time talking to you about how I think some of this information is written, but, you know, extended time, preferential seating guided notes, all of that.
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Okay.
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Do what you need to do to fulfill the IEP, but I don't think when we talk about best inclusion practices and when we talk about wanting to provide access to content for our students with learning and thinking differences.
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We do that best.
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We provide that access when we use what we see they know and are able to do as the springboard into next steps for them.
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So if you know, if I'm going to go back to the example earlier about the student who's, you know, going to an auditory learner, so we're going to provide them an audio version.
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Why do that right off the bat?
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Why not wait to see if the student needs it and then use that in either a small group or use that as your form of differentiation or your scaffold?
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It's like we're so quick to jump to changing all of the things and providing different copies and different levels of this and that.
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Teachers are burning out because of it.
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And so when we go back to that check for understanding and the immediate response, that inherently is differentiation.
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And for our students with those learning and thinking differences, you use the information you know about them in your small group, or if you know
ahead of time that they're going to struggle with a specific skill or standard, you Then you provide that differentiation or scaffold off the bat.
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But oftentimes they'll say, hold on a minute, they're taking the same exam at the end of the year as everyone else.
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So why are we going to provide them all of these supports and guided notes?
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And, you know, if at the end of the day, they're held to the same standard and expectation as their gen ed peers.
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Pre
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Gene Tavernetti: Well, and I think, yes, and you saw me smiling, you saw me smiling at you as you were saying that because if you, I see
what happens many times, based on what you just described, how they start doing all of these accommodations and and things be put together.
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Or they've had an opportunity to respond, give them a chance to be successful.
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I mean, there's no chance to be successful.
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And I think that's what happens with the pre-organized groups.
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You know, I don't know what you call 'em now, you know, the red group, the blue group.
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Jana Lee: pre made leveled groups.
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Yeah, I,
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Gene Tavernetti: and I think if the teacher is teaching in the manner in which you just described and is doing a lot of checking for understanding, they will find that the groups are fluid, that you expected somebody not to do well, but guess what?
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They were able to do this today.
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And so give them a shot.
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Let them try because you've got the IEP, you know, some things that you can do, but you don't have to do it right away.
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Give them a chance.
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Jana Lee: co teachers I was working with for a number of years.
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And.
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When they finally, when it finally clicked, the idea of like, they don't have to pre make these groups, they don't have to base them on their level, right, reading level, math level.
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I had the special education teacher say to me, Jonna, I show up to meeting.
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I pull small groups.
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I don't know who's going to be in my small group, but I also show up to meetings being able to bring my data and say, boom, here, these are the skills they struggled with.
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These are the skills that they need further support in.
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She said, my, I, my goal writing for IEPs are more concrete when I'm having parent conversations.
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I can speak to the content specifically that they're struggling in.
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If I'm making referrals.
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to eat for either early intervention.
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It's an elder elementary teachers.
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If I'm making referrals for early intervention or a 504, I can speak to the data that says what this, why the student needs this.
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And it's all micro data.
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And she said, and I leave the end of the day, knowing that I have closed gaps right then and there, as opposed to needing to figure
it out after the fact all because They shifted their lessons around a little bit to create more time for that targeted remediation.
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And so when teachers are able to make that shift of, you know, like, not making groups ahead of time, not having to look at exit tickets for the first
time and hope that people, that students got it, they actually open up more time and energy for themselves because they're accomplishing that much more.
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in the lesson.
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Gene Tavernetti: Okay, I'm smiling big again, Jonna, because that is one of the big themes in my book, Teach Fast, is that if you teach
effectively, you will be able to know more quickly who knows it, let them go, and who needs the help and what specific help they need.
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Thank you for setting up that promotion of my self promotion of my book, Teach Fast.
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You know,
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Jana Lee: good, worthy book to promote, let me tell you.
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Gene Tavernetti: You know, you said something earlier about, you know, I could talk about this forever, talking about accommodations and what's
in the IEP, and maybe not talk about it forever, but I saw on social media, that's actually part of the training that you do with teachers, right?
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To kind of interpret, to operationalize what we're really trying to do here.
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Could you talk about some of those things we see in IEPs?
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Jana Lee: Yeah, I mean, I think that we get into a copy and paste vibe with IEPs, where if students are sharing, have similar, you know, have
similar learning gaps or similar disabilities, then we just kind of bring in the usual from the bank of, you know, accommodations or modifications.
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And what.
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We then, as a result, we move away from the individualized part of I E P, right?
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And so when we are able to collect data, micro data on students, and we're able to take anecdotal observations on them, and we're able to see what they are capable of, then we enter IEPs in an asset based way.
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Strength-based lens as opposed to using the deficiencies that they, the defi, I put that in, quote, their deficiencies and gaps as the means of, you know, pushing the accommodations and modifications that we provide.
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So for some students, perhaps extended time is necessary, but.
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For what types of assignments in math and in writing and reading is it one subject over the other?
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Is it when they are working on a task?
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You know, a project based task?
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Is it when it comes to tests?
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How many questions on the test?
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And I know it seems granular, but we need to be able to Move away from providing the, or grabbing onto the carbon copy modifications and instead truly individualize, and we're only going to be able to truly
individualize when teachers are able to speak to those gaps in a very granular way, they speak to those gaps in a granular way when they embed the check for understanding into their practice on an everyday basis.
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Gene Tavernetti: You know, I don't, I'm not a lawyer and I know the amount of time that special ed teachers need to spend on compliance and what's a huge, what's a huge thing that they have to do?
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They have to be sure that their IEPs are compliant.
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So if I was, if I were a teacher.
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I might go to that bank of, you know, as I'm doing my automated IEP generator and say that, and when it came time to meet with the gen ed teacher, or came time to meet with the parent, rephrase that.
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Because And maybe I'm being too sympathetic because my wife is a special ed teacher, but it's just crazy the amount of time they work to make sure that those IEPs have the specific language to pass muster.
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Jana Lee: one of them.
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I was one of them, which is why I created sort of, almost a graphic organizer, I guess you could say, that I, that required the other teachers in
that student's life to also complete and share information on that student so that we could look at the student through that strength based lens.
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What is the student doing well?
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You know, when do they perform the best?
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Is it the morning?
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Is it the, is it, you know, after gym?
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Is it right before or right after snack time?
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What within the day are they thriving at?
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Is it when they are creating things with their hands?
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Is it art class?
362
00:40:10,461 --> 00:40:15,461
Do they, are they particularly invested when there's music playing in the background?
363
00:40:15,856 --> 00:40:28,706
All of that information is really necessary in order to best develop IEPs that are curated for not only the disability, but for the student themselves.
364
00:40:28,766 --> 00:40:53,491
And it does require front loading on the special educator teachers part, but with the correct systems in place in terms of how to capture that information, speaking to other teachers,
general ed teachers, including leadership staff to gain more information, setting up, you know, okay, I'm going to send this in, I'm going to send this template out two weeks ahead of time.
365
00:40:53,521 --> 00:40:56,311
And then within a, you know, you have a week to complete it.
366
00:40:56,311 --> 00:41:18,141
I'll follow up with you, those little pieces of Systematic shifts can make a really big difference and almost cut down on the time that
it takes to complete the IEP because the information has been provided through multiple stakeholders including parent and student voice.
367
00:41:18,441 --> 00:41:22,076
But again, it goes back to having the system in place to be able to capture the information.
368
00:41:22,226 --> 00:41:25,016
That information, and I think that's a piece that we're missing.
369
00:41:25,016 --> 00:41:47,216
We put a lot on the shoulders of special education teachers whether, you know, including guidance and those who handle 504 plans to be included in that and at the end of the day, we're
missing the fact that the student is, you know, there's so many adults in the room, and there's so many adults in that student's life that can also play a role in sharing information.
370
00:41:47,451 --> 00:41:51,331
necessary for an IEP to truly be individualized.
371
00:41:51,331 --> 00:41:54,331
And so small shifts in practice can help make that happen.
372
00:41:54,761 --> 00:42:05,291
Gene Tavernetti: You know, as the administrator used to sit in on the IEPs and student study teams and you know, there are the list of everybody who should be involved, everybody who should be there.
373
00:42:06,096 --> 00:42:19,036
And I only remember one time, one time, when all the parties were there and it was so different because everybody bought a, brought a perspective.
374
00:42:19,036 --> 00:42:25,146
It's like that old story about, you know, the blind, five blind people describing an elephant.
375
00:42:26,056 --> 00:42:29,316
Every, you know, the special ed person brought their perspective.
376
00:42:29,326 --> 00:42:31,456
The psychologist brought their perspective.
377
00:42:31,866 --> 00:42:35,826
The social worker brought their, I mean, it was an and it was really.
378
00:42:36,071 --> 00:42:36,801
Wonderful.
379
00:42:37,091 --> 00:42:43,311
And it never happens because of the so there needs to be some sort of systematic way to provide input.
380
00:42:43,531 --> 00:42:44,031
Jana Lee: Absolutely.
381
00:42:44,031 --> 00:42:53,841
And I have to tell you, I had leadership where that was a non negotiable and I was tasked with developing our special education department and our team and all of these systems and all of these pieces.
382
00:42:54,141 --> 00:42:59,081
But I had co directors that these were just the expectations.
383
00:42:59,141 --> 00:43:01,231
These, this is, this was what we did.
384
00:43:01,581 --> 00:43:03,711
And so I think that it's.
385
00:43:04,026 --> 00:43:21,506
It takes the leadership setting those norms and expectations and then also special education teachers or those in charge of formulating the IEP to create those you know, or fine tune those systems to ensure that multiple stakeholders are involved.
386
00:43:22,326 --> 00:43:24,486
You can also head in a direction where.
387
00:43:24,786 --> 00:43:28,096
You create a bank of accommodations and modifications.
388
00:43:28,106 --> 00:43:41,286
So at some point, instead of pulling preferential seating for the student who is struggling with ADHD and has a learning disability, preferential seating now becomes sit as close to the teacher as possible, right?
389
00:43:41,316 --> 00:43:45,426
And so those small shifts in language truly make a really big difference.
390
00:43:45,981 --> 00:43:48,521
for everyone involved in that student's life.
391
00:43:48,521 --> 00:43:49,619
Do
392
00:43:50,272 --> 00:43:54,332
Gene Tavernetti: Jonah we could go on all day, but do you have any questions for me, Jonah?
393
00:43:55,312 --> 00:43:56,312
Jana Lee: I have questions for you?
394
00:43:56,312 --> 00:43:57,372
Wait, I do.
395
00:43:57,382 --> 00:43:58,222
Wait, hold on.
396
00:43:58,282 --> 00:43:58,982
bear with me.
397
00:43:59,032 --> 00:44:00,132
I had to write them down.
398
00:44:00,372 --> 00:44:00,782
I do.
399
00:44:00,832 --> 00:44:02,322
I have two questions for you.
400
00:44:02,662 --> 00:44:12,337
So beating off of that, I think that we assume that all leaders would prioritize special education training and services, right?
401
00:44:12,387 --> 00:44:15,487
Because they're going to best support all students needs.
402
00:44:16,087 --> 00:44:20,487
But, and clearly based on our, just on our conversation today, that isn't always the case.
403
00:44:20,497 --> 00:44:35,457
So my question to you is, you know, why do you think that leaders sometimes have difficulty in prioritizing the systems and the strategies that will best support our students with learning and thinking differences.
404
00:44:36,632 --> 00:44:37,022
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
405
00:44:37,022 --> 00:44:39,042
I'm going to go back N of 1.
406
00:44:39,232 --> 00:44:39,702
Okay.
407
00:44:39,752 --> 00:44:41,482
This is all my experience.
408
00:44:42,112 --> 00:45:06,442
But when I was doing my administrative credential in California, you do a preliminary credential, and I don't remember what the coursework is, but there was one
class, there was one class that had to do with special ed, and I had the opportunity The distinct pleasure to sit next to a person who was a school psychologist.
409
00:45:06,885 --> 00:45:12,185
And so the professor would be talking about, oh, this is how you do a student study team.
410
00:45:12,185 --> 00:45:13,535
And this is how you do an IEP.
411
00:45:13,805 --> 00:45:16,865
And all the time she'd just be like poking me, says, that's not right.
412
00:45:16,925 --> 00:45:17,535
That's not right.
413
00:45:17,545 --> 00:45:18,225
That's not right.
414
00:45:18,525 --> 00:45:24,104
And so I had the opportunity to have somebody tell me how it should be.
415
00:45:24,284 --> 00:45:27,314
And then my wife was a special ed teacher.
416
00:45:27,614 --> 00:45:30,494
And I got to know more about how it should be.
417
00:45:30,774 --> 00:45:33,944
So my point is they don't learn about it.
418
00:45:34,454 --> 00:45:36,834
Special ed becomes this ancillary thing.
419
00:45:36,834 --> 00:45:39,364
That's a pain in the butt that you have to do.
420
00:45:39,994 --> 00:45:43,564
And there are decisions made that are contrary to law.
421
00:45:44,214 --> 00:45:47,214
And then it's all about being defensive, getting into trouble.
422
00:45:47,344 --> 00:45:48,664
So to.
423
00:45:49,059 --> 00:45:50,259
put a ribbon around this.
424
00:45:50,319 --> 00:45:51,659
I just don't think they know.
425
00:45:52,479 --> 00:45:57,949
And unless it's changed a lot, I just don't think that the preparation is there.
426
00:45:58,469 --> 00:46:01,529
And so if you don't have the coursework, where are you going to learn?
427
00:46:01,549 --> 00:46:02,769
You're going to learn on the job.
428
00:46:02,819 --> 00:46:08,419
And if the school is not doing a good job, then it's just perpetuated.
429
00:46:08,479 --> 00:46:11,029
And so, oh, you can't make it to the IEP meeting.
430
00:46:11,169 --> 00:46:11,629
Okay.
431
00:46:11,629 --> 00:46:15,419
Send a report, show up for five minutes, you know, and so, because.
432
00:46:15,642 --> 00:46:24,402
It's not important because of there is no system, there is no understanding of, so that's why I think, you know, and so it's all defensive.
433
00:46:24,402 --> 00:46:25,702
How do we stay out of trouble?
434
00:46:25,952 --> 00:46:28,422
How do we not get a suit brought against us?
435
00:46:30,082 --> 00:46:42,862
Jana Lee: I think it's interesting too that in so many states special education teachers have to get their gen ed license, but gen ed teachers don't have to get their special ed license, and leaders don't have to have their special education license.
436
00:46:43,532 --> 00:46:47,092
So that for me just sets, I mean, that says a lot, right?
437
00:46:47,152 --> 00:46:47,422
I mean,
438
00:46:47,762 --> 00:46:50,652
Gene Tavernetti: yeah, well, I'm going to, I'm going to tell you how disappointed I was.
439
00:46:51,217 --> 00:47:11,647
The first time, here I am as an administrator, and have sat through all of these IEPs and student studies, and then, okay, well, they need the special support that's
going to come from the special day class, and then you walk in, and it's not, there's nothing different going on, and there's just, except there's eight of them.
440
00:47:11,937 --> 00:47:13,287
Instead of 30.
441
00:47:14,087 --> 00:47:18,967
And I was very disappointed and said, No, you know, I didn't have an answer.
442
00:47:18,967 --> 00:47:20,987
I just knew that there was a problem
443
00:47:21,987 --> 00:47:22,387
Jana Lee: Well,
444
00:47:22,947 --> 00:47:24,137
Gene Tavernetti: you got another question for
445
00:47:24,337 --> 00:47:25,587
Jana Lee: I have one more question for you.
446
00:47:25,977 --> 00:47:26,327
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
447
00:47:26,487 --> 00:47:26,867
Jana Lee: Okay.
448
00:47:26,877 --> 00:47:48,567
So your book, which is phenomenal, and I thank you for writing it because I feel like we need more of that out here in this space, but you talk about your FAST framework, and I really appreciate how you emphasize focusing on one objective per lesson.
449
00:47:48,757 --> 00:47:49,217
Okay.
450
00:47:49,937 --> 00:48:08,677
In my experience, Some teachers tend to extend that objective over a period of two to three days, which can delay checking for understanding
until the second, and in some cases, even third day, because that's the way in which they just spread out this single objective.
451
00:48:08,887 --> 00:48:09,587
Objective.
452
00:48:10,197 --> 00:48:29,747
How do you help teachers recognize the importance of setting a clear objective for each day or each lesson so that they can check for understanding,
provide immediate feedback, and make targeted adjustments as opposed to waiting, you know, two or three days later to see who needs what?
453
00:48:30,297 --> 00:48:33,627
Gene Tavernetti: Several ways, several things, several ways that we talk about it.
454
00:48:34,177 --> 00:48:37,577
And Oh, you got to get my next book about coaching cycles.
455
00:48:37,867 --> 00:48:41,997
But in coaching cycles, I'll sit with a teacher and we'll plan.
456
00:48:42,937 --> 00:48:47,207
And one of my first questions is, okay, so tell me about what you're teaching tomorrow.
457
00:48:47,529 --> 00:48:53,995
And the one of the first things that comes out of their mouth is, well, this is a three day lesson.
458
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:57,640
I say, well, let's just reframe that.
459
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:02,330
Instead of making it a three day lesson, make it three one day lessons.
460
00:49:03,290 --> 00:49:10,010
And because now, without going into a lot of things, now we can do what you just described.
461
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:23,765
So that we have smaller chunks, so that at the end of the day, Because of all your checking for understanding, you know where they are, you know what, how, you know, where they were successful, where they are.
462
00:49:24,095 --> 00:49:32,705
So now in the next day, that's going to impact the next day versus going three days and thinking, holy cow, they didn't understand from the first day.
463
00:49:33,145 --> 00:49:40,190
And so I try to, You know, it gets back to our experience in coaching, like smaller tasks.
464
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:43,680
Let's get smaller tasks that are going to build into something bigger.
465
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,530
I want them to think of it that way, and I want them to realize that it's to their benefit.
466
00:49:48,530 --> 00:49:58,170
It's going to make their life easier when they have to reteach, because when they have to reteach, It's only this big I'm making with my finger and thumb.
467
00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:07,200
It's only this big versus this huge thing that needs to be retaught and a huge thing probably doesn't need to be retaught because it's a small thing.
468
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:13,080
So that's I try to describe it that way, that it's to their benefit, you know, let your kids be successful.
469
00:50:13,110 --> 00:50:14,900
Success builds on success.
470
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:28,260
All of those things, but I think the most important thing is that we have met together to go through some sort of training so that when I say that they understand the reason that I'm saying it.
471
00:50:28,270 --> 00:50:30,540
It's not just, no, I don't like three day lessons.
472
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,140
You know, it's like when somebody said, I said, so what are you doing the first day?
473
00:50:34,390 --> 00:50:37,030
Oh, I'm just introducing the topic.
474
00:50:37,070 --> 00:50:40,460
You're introducing what in the world does that mean?
475
00:50:41,555 --> 00:50:45,919
Jonna, here's Algebra, Algebra here's Jonna, now you've been introduced.
476
00:50:47,109 --> 00:50:53,149
In their head they have a rubric in their head of what that they should look like to be a success.
477
00:50:53,409 --> 00:51:07,629
So I kind of talk about it, you know, that way and depending and I would have liked to be in the room ahead of time so I know how they do things so that I can relate it to, uh, what they're doing.
478
00:51:08,629 --> 00:51:09,409
Jana Lee: Yeah, I agree.
479
00:51:09,419 --> 00:51:19,399
And I think that when the moment you ask, at least in my experience, the moment I asked teachers to start to describe the objective, it's like, it goes back to what you just said.
480
00:51:19,419 --> 00:51:28,179
They like have it in their head, but the moment they have to explicitly state it, it becomes like, kind of goes in circles.
481
00:51:28,179 --> 00:51:30,759
They struggle with being able to communicate.
482
00:51:31,309 --> 00:51:34,449
What that objective is and when we can nail that down.
483
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,449
And I've had teachers be like, wait, whoa, this is like, like, I knew what I wanted.
484
00:51:38,589 --> 00:51:42,279
I knew, like, I know, but I'm just having trouble saying it out loud.
485
00:51:42,279 --> 00:51:44,179
And it's like, well, we got to be able to say it out loud.
486
00:51:44,189 --> 00:51:47,719
We have to be able to communicate it, not just for ourselves, but also for our students.
487
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:48,679
And so, yeah.
488
00:51:49,389 --> 00:51:52,909
Gene Tavernetti: Once you can get it down to, you're going to kick with the outside of your foot.
489
00:51:53,459 --> 00:51:54,479
Now you could teach it.
490
00:51:54,589 --> 00:51:55,419
Now you could teach it.
491
00:51:55,429 --> 00:51:56,029
You can't teach.
492
00:51:57,919 --> 00:51:58,769
Jana Lee: Like, okay.
493
00:51:59,509 --> 00:52:00,599
10 years old.
494
00:52:01,019 --> 00:52:08,052
Gene Tavernetti: Oh, Jada, is there anything that you would like to, we'll get your let's see, you're on Instagram.
495
00:52:08,182 --> 00:52:09,852
You're on X. We'll get all of those.
496
00:52:09,872 --> 00:52:10,512
You're on LinkedIn.
497
00:52:11,522 --> 00:52:12,352
Jana Lee: the things.
498
00:52:12,432 --> 00:52:13,792
I'm on all the things.
499
00:52:13,872 --> 00:52:14,132
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
500
00:52:14,172 --> 00:52:15,422
All the socials, as they
501
00:52:15,582 --> 00:52:15,792
Jana Lee: All the
502
00:52:15,832 --> 00:52:16,372
Gene Tavernetti: the socials.
503
00:52:16,822 --> 00:52:17,332
Yeah.
504
00:52:17,582 --> 00:52:21,342
And I'm going to recommend, you know, we'll get your website in there.
505
00:52:21,342 --> 00:52:21,402
All right.
506
00:52:21,542 --> 00:52:27,912
of course, because of, you know, you do have a lot of free resources available to folks and your newsletter so.
507
00:52:28,102 --> 00:52:28,972
Jana Lee: there's a lot there.
508
00:52:28,972 --> 00:52:40,037
You know, I think that we're in this space where it really should not should not cost a lot of money to be able to just get the job done and ultimately support our most precious population, which is, you know, us.
509
00:52:40,397 --> 00:52:41,087
Students.
510
00:52:41,397 --> 00:53:07,427
So with that in mind, over the summer, I developed a monthly subscription package as well, where for six bucks a month leaders can receive right delivered to their inbox the beginning of the month, done for you professional
development and resources that can be turnkeyed to teachers as an as a way to, you know, still provide high quality support to teachers without breaking the bank and without, you know, adding on to time and energy.
511
00:53:07,727 --> 00:53:08,467
That they don't have.
512
00:53:08,477 --> 00:53:18,064
So very likewise, you know, excited to be in this space with you just trying to support, you know, tough times in education.
513
00:53:18,074 --> 00:53:19,464
We're all just trying to make it better.
514
00:53:20,665 --> 00:53:27,675
Gene Tavernetti: Well, Johnna, it is always a joy talking to you, and thank you for being on here, and we'll have to do it again.
515
00:53:28,350 --> 00:53:28,860
Jana Lee: We will.
516
00:53:28,930 --> 00:53:30,370
Thank you so much for having me, Jean.
517
00:53:30,485 --> 00:53:32,075
Gene Tavernetti: All right, bye bye.
518
00:53:34,952 --> 00:53:46,052
If you are enjoying these podcasts, please give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts, and you can find me on Twitter, x at G Tabernetti, and on my website, tesscg.
519
00:53:46,912 --> 00:53:59,422
com, that's T E S C G dot com, where you'll get information about how to order my books, teach fast, focused, adaptable, structured teaching, and maximizing the impact of coaching cycles.
520
00:53:59,682 --> 00:54:00,672
Thank you for listening.
521
00:54:00,742 --> 00:54:01,672
We'll talk to you soon
00:00:07,145 --> 00:00:16,435
Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.
2
00:00:17,265 --> 00:00:23,265
This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.
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00:00:23,685 --> 00:00:28,035
Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.
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00:00:28,535 --> 00:00:31,295
I Am Jean Taver Netti, the host for this podcast.
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00:00:31,385 --> 00:00:39,275
And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.
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00:00:39,895 --> 00:00:42,445
A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.
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Only stuff that works My guest this morning is Dr. John Ali, the executive director and founder of John Ali Consulting.
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00:00:52,448 --> 00:01:03,636
With over 15 years of experience, Dr. Ali has become a trusted partner to school communities across the nation, specializing in data driven systems, targeted interventions, and inclusive practices.
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00:01:04,266 --> 00:01:14,596
Her expertise extends from personalized coaching and professional development to delivering inspiring keynotes that empower educators and leaders to make a lasting impact.
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00:01:15,116 --> 00:01:17,246
Jonna, welcome!
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00:01:17,356 --> 00:01:18,776
Great to have you today.
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00:01:19,296 --> 00:01:21,406
Jana Lee: I'm so excited to be here.
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Gene Tavernetti: Well, Jonna and I'll tell you where Jonna and I met, and of course we had kind of cross paths on, on social media as people do, but it was at a conference recently and the name of her session, I think was data driven something.
14
00:01:39,286 --> 00:01:41,056
Jana Lee: Data driven Decisions by Design.
15
00:01:41,396 --> 00:01:43,756
Gene Tavernetti: Data driven because you are the data.
16
00:01:43,806 --> 00:01:45,886
I mean, you really are known as the data person.
17
00:01:46,506 --> 00:01:48,486
And so, so I was with a friend.
18
00:01:48,671 --> 00:02:06,921
And well, we went to go see, and I have to tell you, I'm not excited about a lot of sessions, but, you know, I just met you and I go, I'm going to go, I'm
going to go support my new friend, and I'm thinking, I am not going to be interested in this data driven thing here, but you talk about it differently.
19
00:02:07,331 --> 00:02:10,491
And you talk about it in a way that, okay, we connect it.
20
00:02:10,491 --> 00:02:11,951
so you're the data person.
21
00:02:11,951 --> 00:02:18,451
So, but how do you talk about data as opposed to other people kind of look at data in your mind?
22
00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:29,116
Jana Lee: I like to talk about it as this non scary concept that doesn't need to require more time, energy and resources.
23
00:02:29,166 --> 00:02:44,696
I like to think of it as almost formalizing what teachers and leaders are already doing in their practices and just drawing more attention to those moments of opportunity to collect data and then do something with it.
24
00:02:44,766 --> 00:02:52,346
So many teachers can collect the data, but it's what happens next that often goes missing.
25
00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:58,871
And so I try to make it this very nonchalant kind of, Hey, listen, you're already doing it.
26
00:02:58,901 --> 00:03:01,461
We just have to formalize this a little bit.
27
00:03:01,871 --> 00:03:15,191
You know, and with leaders, I really encourage them to take closer look at that microdata that's happening in the classroom so that they can best support their teachers and therefore best support students.
28
00:03:15,426 --> 00:03:17,596
Gene Tavernetti: So I think that's, was the distinction that.
29
00:03:17,821 --> 00:03:34,851
Allowed me to be more opening to listening to you was the idea that you talked about microdata versus what other people think of data, how, when you first start talking about it, how do you find people are thinking about the data that they're looking at?
30
00:03:35,396 --> 00:03:35,746
Jana Lee: Right.
31
00:03:35,776 --> 00:03:41,776
I think that from a leadership perspective, oftentimes leaders look at what I call macro data.
32
00:03:42,136 --> 00:03:53,891
So those you know, performance assessments, state exams, diagnostics, benchmarks, overarchingly, you know, where are our students on the spectrum in terms of reading writing.
33
00:03:53,891 --> 00:03:54,871
And math.
34
00:03:54,881 --> 00:04:06,951
And yes, leaders should be able to speak to that macro data, but what gets lost are the opportunities to take a finer look at micro data.
35
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So even when, you're going to hear me say data and data, because now I have that in my mind, because we were talking before
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Gene Tavernetti: And so that
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Jana Lee: this Even from a teacher perspective, teachers often look at benchmarks, and benchmark assessments, I would consider still an aspect of the overarching data that speaks to our student performance.
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And what we don't take as fine of a look at is that micro assessment.
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I'm not even talking about formative assessment when I talk about micro, I'm talking about, The check for understanding.
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And that's where teachers are able to identify what is it, what skill or strategy is the student struggling with, and what am I going to do to ensure that I'm closing the gap as it relates to that.
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Skill or strategy, right then and there, as opposed to waiting for time to go by having to redo their lessons and modify their plans in order to catch those students up.
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It all happens within a lesson.
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And so when leaders begin to take a closer look at that micro data collection, then the macro data is not a surprise.
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They know what to expect overarchingly because they have a pulse on What students are struggling with and their the areas of growth that are happening on the classroom on a regular everyday basis.
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Gene Tavernetti: microdata, you're talking about checking for understanding, that is all the data, all the checking for understanding multiple times frequently during instruction, not, so, so there is, so, so some people call that what do they call
it, responsive teaching, some people, I just call it teaching, you know, it's good it's just kind of, it's just kind of good teaching, but it presupposes something, and it presupposes that there is a lot of checking for understanding to collect this.
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And so when you are working with staffs, you're working and I know that you, your background was in special education do you have to do a lot of work with teachers to get them to actually collect that data to actually do some checking for understanding?
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Or not some, a lot?
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Jana Lee: So it's interesting, Jean, because so often they're already doing it, but we tend to see it not done in a way that fosters the immediate response.
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So, for example, let's set the scene.
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You've got a teacher who's who's got students in the room working independently on a task.
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What we tend to see is the teacher circulating and providing individualized feedback while students are working.
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What I focus most on with teachers is getting them to kind of zip their lips while students are working and instead circulate knowing what the teacher is looking for from the student.
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And in response to what they see, grab a small group of students to work on very explicitly on that skill or strategy or task as opposed to supporting the students while they're working.
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When teachers are circulating and providing feedback, we tend to see teachers help students through the problem as opposed to supporting them with the skill that they're struggling in.
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So when we pull students in a small group, you're going to get, the teacher's going to get more time with those students and then be able to focus on the student.
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So that students can go back to the table and still work independently, but with that reteach or remodel and closed learning gap that just happened in that targeted remediation.
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And I think the idea of pulling a small group while you've got a number of students in your class is not necessarily explicitly taught in pre service training or taught.
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to teachers nowadays.
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And so I do spend a lot of my time getting them to say, hey, listen, just because the curriculum doesn't say that you can pull a small group, it doesn't mean you can't pull a small group.
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Gene Tavernetti: but yeah, it's I hadn't heard you say that before in that way, but I've heard me say that very in a very similar fashion.
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And one of the things I tell teachers as as they're walking around trying to help somebody is that there's nothing you could do in a minute.
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or 30 seconds to teach that student that skill.
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The only thing you could do is what you just described is to help them do that problem, but that's not what you're after.
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And in addition to that, if you do spend the time that student needs, what's everybody else doing?
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So, so I think the way you describe it is, you know, see what the data are, from it, from a number of students.
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And then, yeah, then, because We, here's another thing that I want your opinion on that I tell people don't say that all students learn differently.
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No, they don't learn differently.
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They, you know, guess what?
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I just looked at the data and the dataset.
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I should pull a group because they all have the same issue.
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What do you think about that?
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Especially in Ed, in, in special ed?
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What does instruction look like?
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You know?
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Jana Lee: Sure.
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So there's actually some research that came out recently over the last couple of years that shared that there's truly no such thing as like learning styles.
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So the idea that a student is a visual learner, the idea that a student is a tactile learner or kinesthetic or an auditory.
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We all learn in all of those ways.
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So when we're supporting students, I try to work with teachers around, try to get them out of thinking of students In a box in terms of, well, they're an auditory learner.
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So I'm going to provide this text through, you know, I'm going to also provide a the auditory tape recorded, if that's a thing, still tape recorded, but auditory version of the text, right?
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Because they're an auditory learner.
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As opposed to saying, okay, pump the brakes a moment.
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Before we go ahead and provide all of these scaffolds and all this differentiation, I'm not saying don't do those things, but I'm saying how do we
know that the student needs those things to access this particular skill strategy, objective, target, task, whatever you want to call it, right?
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Let's keep that in our back pocket for when we need it.
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So, when we use the data, And we're able to identify whether it's through a turn and talk, whether it's through a quick comprehension question, whether it's problem
number three on the math homework, on the math sheet, whatever that check for understanding is, let's save the way in which we allow students to access the content.
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based on who we see needs it.
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And so I think good instruction to your point earlier about it being responsive and teachers having to you know, recognize the gaps that students are facing.
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We need to be able to support students with where they're at.
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That productive struggle, that rigor, all of those buzzwords that we're hearing, that doesn't happen unless you've collected information
on the student that lets you know that they need that auditory, you know, version of the tape in order to better understand and comprehend.
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Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
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Let's back up a little bit.
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So that description of pulling a group that pulling a group, it's irrelevant what the size, the initial size of the group is.
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You can have a group of seven in a, in California, we might call it special day class.
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I don't know what it's called.
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You know, where you work.
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And I'm still pulling a group of three because every objective, every lesson, you can't predict how people are, you know, how the kids are going to do.
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It could be that, so that grouping is going to be fluid, what I'm trying to say.
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Jana Lee: Absolutely.
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And not to cut you off, Jean, but I think oftentimes we pull groups based on, I see teachers pulling groups based on preconceived notions,
based on, they use it as a behavior management tool based on what they think the student knows, based on if the student has an IEP or not.
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And so when those are the ways that we're pulling groups, our groups tend to become homogeneous and not based on the skills or strategies that they truly are struggling with.
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I call it catch and release.
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So I'm going to catch the students who need this support right now based on that check for understanding, and then I'm going to give them another independent moment.
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to demonstrate their proficiency.
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Hopefully after that reteach or that remodel or the clarification, I'm going to release them and they're going to show that they can now work on that skill independently.
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I'm going to hold on to the students who have not yet shown that independent proficiency.
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And so when we continuously catch and release, we're not using our preconceived notions or what we think our students are capable of as a means for or as the reason why we're pulling them into our small group.
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Gene Tavernetti: Okay, so when we, so you just described how, We may not do that well.
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Create that group effectively, efficiently.
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How does that impact?
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And I know you work on MPSS with with schools.
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How does that impact?
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Does that influence a teacher?
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And who is going to go on to the, to level two instruction?
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Or
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Jana Lee: Yeah, I mean if you were to look at MTSS, I think that there's two types of MTSS.
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that we see going on.
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There's MTSS, the pronoun, which is more the formalized approach to supporting students.
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So we're either pulling students out for intervention, or we have a push in model that's based on benchmark data that we're collecting.
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But And while that's important, and we should have that, and especially with early intervention, what I think we're missing is the MTSS that can happen in the tier one or co taught classrooms.
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So what am I talking about?
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Tier two, if we look at our tiers, tier two would be pulling that small group.
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Right?
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Within the within the tier one or the co taught classroom, tier three would be the one on one support that the students still need.
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So when we go back to catch and release, the longer you hold on to a student, the more so you shift to the tier three supports until eventually you've collected enough support.
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data and you're tracking it in a way to say, okay, I know when we get back to this skill or we get back to this standard, I'm going to immediately pull this student for a one on one or I know that this student
needs some additional support with these, you know, set of skills because They still didn't understand it after working with them for some time in that one on one, you know, one on one setting in the classroom.
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It can all happen in the classroom, but it requires teachers to be able to rework their curriculum, not change their curriculum, but be willing to take a lesson and say, okay how do I need to like a puzzle?
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How am I going to, you know, potentially rework some of the pieces of my lesson to ensure that students have.
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I'm going to give you a number of minutes to explore the content independently, to collaborate, to meet with me in that small group and independently showcase their proficiency.
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We're seeing right now, not to move this to, you know, student behaviors, but there, I don't go a single day without hearing from either a leader or a teacher that student behaviors are important.
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Pre K, Kindergarten, yes in the secondary in terms of the anxiety and the dysregulation, but more so in those younger grades, student behaviors are wild.
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And so we need to look at how many minutes in that lesson do we have teachers standing up there and talking whole group instruction.
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We need to take a second look at that.
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Why are you laughing?
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Do you, because
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Gene Tavernetti: you know, I'm laughing because I agree.
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And it is so evident.
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One of the jokes I tell about this, you know, I, you know, we all know that kindergarten teachers teach on the carpet, right?
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The kids are on the carpet.
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And I said, here's what I want you to do.
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If you've never taught kindergarten, go into a kindergarten classroom.
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And as soon as the kids sit down, look at your watch.
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And in seven minutes, here's what every kindergarten teacher says.
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On your bottoms, crisscross applesauce hands to yourself.
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Why?
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Because they're done.
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They're done talking.
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And then all the behaviors manifest at that time.
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And I think that's why I was laughing because, yeah, I absolutely agree.
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And you, and somebody asked me about the research, you know, about that recently, about how long is it?
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Just watch.
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Just look.
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They're telling you.
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I'm done.
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Jana Lee: I think there's a I think it's two minutes for every age, but even that I think is too long.
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You know, I think that we have to be able to look at the lessons and rework the lessons where students are engaging with the content and teachers are okay with pulling
a small group to allow for targeted Remediation, but again, that all comes down to that check for understanding and I'm still waiting for any of your listeners.
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I'm still waiting for a curriculum that is explicitly says this is your check for understanding and then based on this I want you to do
this for the students who got it, this for the students who almost got it, and these for this for the students who did not yet get it.
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I'm looking for the curriculum that has that outlined for teachers.
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I don't know.
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Have you seen it, Jean?
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Gene Tavernetti: I don't, you know, when I've worked with teachers, I haven't gone to the to what's the prescription, but what I have gone to is most teachers use some sort of whether it's a slide deck of some kind.
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And I said, And then I'll ask him, I said, what are they supposed to know at this point in the lesson to be able to continue?
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And then I'll say, okay, great.
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Just put that in your slide.
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Because now you will never forget to check for understanding, but if you don't put it there, that's the first thing you forget.
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And not only do you forget, and the other thing that I tell them about to check it for understanding, is that especially put those really good questions, you know, the right there questions you could think off the top of your head.
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You know, what did we just do?
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What did you, that's easy.
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What's, what do you want them to be thinking about here?
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And then But I haven't seen that next step about what to do next, and I'm hoping that in the lesson design allows them to say, well, I need to go back here, or I need to continue or I'm putting this in my head for when I pull the small group.
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I don't,
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Jana Lee: I hope so too, and I haven't, I have not yet seen it.
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And you know, I think that we, the education has become accustomed to using the macro data pieces as the means for, Supporting our students whether it's again through those specific
interventions or, you know, for folks who are lucky enough to have a tutor you know, but what we're doing isn't working clearly because our, the achievement gap is widening.
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And so the goal of the check for understanding is that before that gap widens, you're able to.
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To close it right then and there in the classroom, as opposed to being hamsters on a wheel where you constantly feel like you're having to catch up.
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I mean, I remember being in the classroom before I was ingrained in this practice of check for understanding.
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I'd give an exit slip.
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I'd give the exit slip.
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I'd collect the exit slip.
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now I have to like, look at these things right and they would see the clipboard and then I would look at them I'd get really sad when like no one understood what I taught and then I'd be like, now I have to go back and figure out when am I going to.
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reteach this, right?
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Or when am I going to support the seven students who didn't understand it, all based on the exit ticket?
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So, you know, that's the, and that's what we're used to.
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That's the game that we play in terms of assessing students on the spot and then having to find a time later to be able to close those gaps.
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And all we want to do, you know, I try to explain it as taking the exit ticket and just.
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Bump it up.
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Bump it up.
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Leave yourself some time to be able to support those students right then and there.
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Gene Tavernetti: no, and I'm laughing again because I, you know, I've just said it a little bit differently.
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You know, they say the exit slip, we gotta do an next slip.
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You know what?
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Continue to do the exit slip, but don't be surprised.
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You should already know what's on the exit slip because you can't live your life.
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You can't plan your life.
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based on what these eight year olds are going to tell you, you know, or 12 or 15 or whenever, you should already know, which is your point about collecting that, that data with the check for understanding.
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Jana Lee: And it requires teachers to be able to go in and look for three things.
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What am I looking for?
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So what do my students know?
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Now, what am I going to do?
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That cycle of what am I looking for?
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So what do my students know?
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And now, what am I going to do based on that?
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And I try to try to support teachers in bringing that cycle to life in their lessons.
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And to your point earlier, part of it, a non negotiable has to be them to identify what it is they're looking for, put it on a slide, put the question on the slide, that will allow them to you know, better chances in bringing it to life.
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Absolutely.
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Gene Tavernetti: You're the data person.
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I might be calling you the micro data person from now on because those three questions, aren't those the same questions or the same type of questions that you're going to bring to a PLC?
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Jana Lee: That actually, when we talk about professional learning communities and we talk about teachers being able to engage in student artifacts and student work,
teachers have to know what it is, what is the skill that we are looking to close in order to know what to look at when it comes to digging into student artifacts.
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I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've worked with a PLC, teachers have brought student work, let's just take a writing sample, even a paragraph.
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It is so easy to look at that paragraph and for a teacher's mind to just go running with all of the things.
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That could be possibly edited or revised or fixed in this paragraph.
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And what ends up happening, teachers will provide feedback, whether it's on Google Document or in the notes.
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You think students are going back to that and being like, Okay, let me remember all of the things that, you know, Ms. Lee just told me that I needed to change.
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No way!
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So the PLC is a great time to say, okay, even though we want to fix this entire paragraph, we're looking at just relevant details.
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And so when the ELA teacher is looking at relevant details, and the social studies teacher is looking at relevant details, and the math teacher, because in math, students are now having to justify their responses, right?
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When the math teacher is ensuring that there's a detail to support the answer, same thing with the science teacher.
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Collectively, that student is far more likely.
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to walk away within the next six to eight weeks having be far more likely to be able to provide relevant details because there's a consistency from classroom to classroom, from lesson to lesson.
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Everybody in that PLC has determined next steps to help support and close the gap of relevant details.
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And so that consistency allows the student to automate the skill necessary to select relevant details.
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But it takes a professional learning community to know what to look for and to develop next steps cohesively and collectively, all based around a skill, in order to make that leap and bring it into the classroom to support student gaps.
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Gene Tavernetti: I'm sorry I keep smiling Johnna but it, Again, it goes back to micro being able to because that's all you can teach.
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You can't teach how to make the whole essay better.
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You can only teach a certain piece.
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Well, you can, you will over time, but today we need to focus on that certain skill.
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Is that difficult?
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Cause I know you do a lot of work with PLCs.
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Is that difficult?
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Well, it's not only PLC work.
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It's going to be.
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It's going to relate to the MTSS, what skills that, you know, how are we going to teach these skills to the kids?
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Yeah, so,
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Jana Lee: all connected in terms of the PLC.
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I have found that a lot of it comes down.
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We cannot two things.
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We cannot make assumptions that teachers know how to do this work in their PLCs, right?
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We can't make assumptions that teachers know how to dig into data and you know, do a data dive.
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Simultaneously, we need to ensure that the proper systems and procedures are in place so that PLC time is efficient, productive, and leads itself or lends itself to best next steps.
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As a leader, while a leader hopefully is not leading those PLCs, if the norms and expectations for before, during, and after a meeting are set and solidified, a leader
should not be leading those PLCs, but instead is able to grab onto the PLC takeaways and ensure that it's coming into practice with the interventions and the MTSS supports.
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So the two work harmoniously When everybody is on the same page and the systems are in place for communication, for agenda and next step setting.
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I mean, even as far as setting up a a Google folder where the leader can slide in there and see what are the PLCs working on.
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What are their established next steps?
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What skills are we looking at?
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And how can I, as a leader, whether it's MTSS work, whether it's walk through feedback, right?
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Whether it's one on one conversations with teachers, how can I support this work to not only strengthen the PLC, but also strengthen classroom practice.
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And when teachers begin to see the thread between everything that they're doing, they're far more likely to buy into the work and be motivated because they won't feel like it's just one thing after the next, all stacking up in different silos.
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Everything is very interconnected.
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And not only will that best improve our teacher practice, but it will also help our students thrive academically.
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socially and emotionally.
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Gene Tavernetti: you know, you just said a whole lot about PLCs and we'll put it in the notes for the show, but I know that you have a blog about PLCs and about everything
that you just talked about, and so they can go there on your resource page on your website and see that because that was a ton there, what you had to say, all important.
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One of the things that I have found, and you're no exception, is that so many of the folks who I. You know, are copacetic.
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They say that in New Jersey,
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Jana Lee: What is the word?
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Not
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Gene Tavernetti: copacetic,
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Jana Lee: so much, not around here.
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Gene Tavernetti: okay.
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But, you know, actually, you know, think alike, have had some sort of athletic experience or coaching experience.
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And you were, and I remember in your session you had played both college and professional athlete.
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How, you even gave an example from soccer, I think, in your.
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You know, how did, how does that bit, how did that experience inform how you teach and how you consult?
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Jana Lee: the analogy, just quickly for your listeners, I was probably 10 years old and I had a coach who back in the day, this is when
like coaches would yell and scream and it seemed to work or so we thought and we were supposed to pass with the outside of our foot.
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I, for whatever reason, was having trouble passing with the outside of our foot.
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And so he grabbed three of us who couldn't do it, showed us how to do it really explicitly.
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This is how you do it.
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And like, showed us right then and there and then sent us back in, and sure enough, after seeing it in that small group, little did he know that he pulled a small group, but after seeing it in the small group, I was able to do it.
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And so that analogy, that has stuck with me because when we talk about using data to pull a small group, it goes back to what I said earlier.
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It's like, not that serious.
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We don't have to think of it as this really big to do.
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It really can just be knowing what you're looking for.
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That's that what.
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So what do my students know, right?
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So that coach was able to see who got what, and now what am I going to do about it?
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In that scenario, the coach pulled us to the side and showed us how to do it.
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And so that would be the cycle the low prep, sustainable cycle that I look to bring into teachers and support them with bringing into their classrooms.
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And so I use it as the analogy because it just, I don't know, it just stuck with me in terms of, wow, this small group instruction really can happen at any time, at any place with any you know, any angry,
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Gene Tavernetti: Any content so, okay, talk for a moment about instruction how instruction differs.
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So I'm a general ed teacher and I have a group of kids in my classroom with IEPs.
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How do I need to think about those kids differently to provide instruction?
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How do you, when you take a look at that tier one instruction, how do you talk about that with teachers?
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Jana Lee: So it's funny you say that, Jane, because I tell teachers not to look at it differently until the data says that you need to look at it differently.
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So, of course, there are accommodations and modifications in the IEP that are sort of non negotiable, right?
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Preferential seating, which I could spend like a whole other I could spend a lot of time talking to you about how I think some of this information is written, but, you know, extended time, preferential seating guided notes, all of that.
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Okay.
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Do what you need to do to fulfill the IEP, but I don't think when we talk about best inclusion practices and when we talk about wanting to provide access to content for our students with learning and thinking differences.
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We do that best.
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We provide that access when we use what we see they know and are able to do as the springboard into next steps for them.
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So if you know, if I'm going to go back to the example earlier about the student who's, you know, going to an auditory learner, so we're going to provide them an audio version.
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Why do that right off the bat?
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Why not wait to see if the student needs it and then use that in either a small group or use that as your form of differentiation or your scaffold?
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It's like we're so quick to jump to changing all of the things and providing different copies and different levels of this and that.
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Teachers are burning out because of it.
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And so when we go back to that check for understanding and the immediate response, that inherently is differentiation.
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And for our students with those learning and thinking differences, you use the information you know about them in your small group, or if you know
ahead of time that they're going to struggle with a specific skill or standard, you Then you provide that differentiation or scaffold off the bat.
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But oftentimes they'll say, hold on a minute, they're taking the same exam at the end of the year as everyone else.
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So why are we going to provide them all of these supports and guided notes?
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And, you know, if at the end of the day, they're held to the same standard and expectation as their gen ed peers.
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Pre
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Gene Tavernetti: Well, and I think, yes, and you saw me smiling, you saw me smiling at you as you were saying that because if you, I see
what happens many times, based on what you just described, how they start doing all of these accommodations and and things be put together.
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Or they've had an opportunity to respond, give them a chance to be successful.
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I mean, there's no chance to be successful.
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And I think that's what happens with the pre-organized groups.
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You know, I don't know what you call 'em now, you know, the red group, the blue group.
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Jana Lee: pre made leveled groups.
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Yeah, I,
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Gene Tavernetti: and I think if the teacher is teaching in the manner in which you just described and is doing a lot of checking for understanding, they will find that the groups are fluid, that you expected somebody not to do well, but guess what?
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They were able to do this today.
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And so give them a shot.
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Let them try because you've got the IEP, you know, some things that you can do, but you don't have to do it right away.
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Give them a chance.
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Jana Lee: co teachers I was working with for a number of years.
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And.
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When they finally, when it finally clicked, the idea of like, they don't have to pre make these groups, they don't have to base them on their level, right, reading level, math level.
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I had the special education teacher say to me, Jonna, I show up to meeting.
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I pull small groups.
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I don't know who's going to be in my small group, but I also show up to meetings being able to bring my data and say, boom, here, these are the skills they struggled with.
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These are the skills that they need further support in.
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She said, my, I, my goal writing for IEPs are more concrete when I'm having parent conversations.
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I can speak to the content specifically that they're struggling in.
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If I'm making referrals.
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to eat for either early intervention.
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It's an elder elementary teachers.
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If I'm making referrals for early intervention or a 504, I can speak to the data that says what this, why the student needs this.
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And it's all micro data.
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And she said, and I leave the end of the day, knowing that I have closed gaps right then and there, as opposed to needing to figure
it out after the fact all because They shifted their lessons around a little bit to create more time for that targeted remediation.
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And so when teachers are able to make that shift of, you know, like, not making groups ahead of time, not having to look at exit tickets for the first
time and hope that people, that students got it, they actually open up more time and energy for themselves because they're accomplishing that much more.
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in the lesson.
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Gene Tavernetti: Okay, I'm smiling big again, Jonna, because that is one of the big themes in my book, Teach Fast, is that if you teach
effectively, you will be able to know more quickly who knows it, let them go, and who needs the help and what specific help they need.
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Thank you for setting up that promotion of my self promotion of my book, Teach Fast.
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You know,
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Jana Lee: good, worthy book to promote, let me tell you.
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Gene Tavernetti: You know, you said something earlier about, you know, I could talk about this forever, talking about accommodations and what's
in the IEP, and maybe not talk about it forever, but I saw on social media, that's actually part of the training that you do with teachers, right?
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To kind of interpret, to operationalize what we're really trying to do here.
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Could you talk about some of those things we see in IEPs?
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Jana Lee: Yeah, I mean, I think that we get into a copy and paste vibe with IEPs, where if students are sharing, have similar, you know, have
similar learning gaps or similar disabilities, then we just kind of bring in the usual from the bank of, you know, accommodations or modifications.
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And what.
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We then, as a result, we move away from the individualized part of I E P, right?
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And so when we are able to collect data, micro data on students, and we're able to take anecdotal observations on them, and we're able to see what they are capable of, then we enter IEPs in an asset based way.
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Strength-based lens as opposed to using the deficiencies that they, the defi, I put that in, quote, their deficiencies and gaps as the means of, you know, pushing the accommodations and modifications that we provide.
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So for some students, perhaps extended time is necessary, but.
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For what types of assignments in math and in writing and reading is it one subject over the other?
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Is it when they are working on a task?
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You know, a project based task?
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Is it when it comes to tests?
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How many questions on the test?
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And I know it seems granular, but we need to be able to Move away from providing the, or grabbing onto the carbon copy modifications and instead truly individualize, and we're only going to be able to truly
individualize when teachers are able to speak to those gaps in a very granular way, they speak to those gaps in a granular way when they embed the check for understanding into their practice on an everyday basis.
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Gene Tavernetti: You know, I don't, I'm not a lawyer and I know the amount of time that special ed teachers need to spend on compliance and what's a huge, what's a huge thing that they have to do?
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They have to be sure that their IEPs are compliant.
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So if I was, if I were a teacher.
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I might go to that bank of, you know, as I'm doing my automated IEP generator and say that, and when it came time to meet with the gen ed teacher, or came time to meet with the parent, rephrase that.
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Because And maybe I'm being too sympathetic because my wife is a special ed teacher, but it's just crazy the amount of time they work to make sure that those IEPs have the specific language to pass muster.
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Jana Lee: one of them.
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I was one of them, which is why I created sort of, almost a graphic organizer, I guess you could say, that I, that required the other teachers in
that student's life to also complete and share information on that student so that we could look at the student through that strength based lens.
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What is the student doing well?
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You know, when do they perform the best?
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Is it the morning?
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Is it the, is it, you know, after gym?
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Is it right before or right after snack time?
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What within the day are they thriving at?
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Is it when they are creating things with their hands?
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Is it art class?
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Do they, are they particularly invested when there's music playing in the background?
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All of that information is really necessary in order to best develop IEPs that are curated for not only the disability, but for the student themselves.
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And it does require front loading on the special educator teachers part, but with the correct systems in place in terms of how to capture that information, speaking to other teachers,
general ed teachers, including leadership staff to gain more information, setting up, you know, okay, I'm going to send this in, I'm going to send this template out two weeks ahead of time.
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And then within a, you know, you have a week to complete it.
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I'll follow up with you, those little pieces of Systematic shifts can make a really big difference and almost cut down on the time that
it takes to complete the IEP because the information has been provided through multiple stakeholders including parent and student voice.
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But again, it goes back to having the system in place to be able to capture the information.
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That information, and I think that's a piece that we're missing.
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We put a lot on the shoulders of special education teachers whether, you know, including guidance and those who handle 504 plans to be included in that and at the end of the day, we're
missing the fact that the student is, you know, there's so many adults in the room, and there's so many adults in that student's life that can also play a role in sharing information.
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necessary for an IEP to truly be individualized.
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And so small shifts in practice can help make that happen.
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Gene Tavernetti: You know, as the administrator used to sit in on the IEPs and student study teams and you know, there are the list of everybody who should be involved, everybody who should be there.
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And I only remember one time, one time, when all the parties were there and it was so different because everybody bought a, brought a perspective.
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It's like that old story about, you know, the blind, five blind people describing an elephant.
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Every, you know, the special ed person brought their perspective.
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The psychologist brought their perspective.
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The social worker brought their, I mean, it was an and it was really.
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Wonderful.
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And it never happens because of the so there needs to be some sort of systematic way to provide input.
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Jana Lee: Absolutely.
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And I have to tell you, I had leadership where that was a non negotiable and I was tasked with developing our special education department and our team and all of these systems and all of these pieces.
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But I had co directors that these were just the expectations.
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These, this is, this was what we did.
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And so I think that it's.
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It takes the leadership setting those norms and expectations and then also special education teachers or those in charge of formulating the IEP to create those you know, or fine tune those systems to ensure that multiple stakeholders are involved.
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You can also head in a direction where.
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You create a bank of accommodations and modifications.
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So at some point, instead of pulling preferential seating for the student who is struggling with ADHD and has a learning disability, preferential seating now becomes sit as close to the teacher as possible, right?
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And so those small shifts in language truly make a really big difference.
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for everyone involved in that student's life.
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Do
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Gene Tavernetti: Jonah we could go on all day, but do you have any questions for me, Jonah?
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Jana Lee: I have questions for you?
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Wait, I do.
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Wait, hold on.
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bear with me.
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I had to write them down.
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I do.
399
00:44:00,832 --> 00:44:02,322
I have two questions for you.
400
00:44:02,662 --> 00:44:12,337
So beating off of that, I think that we assume that all leaders would prioritize special education training and services, right?
401
00:44:12,387 --> 00:44:15,487
Because they're going to best support all students needs.
402
00:44:16,087 --> 00:44:20,487
But, and clearly based on our, just on our conversation today, that isn't always the case.
403
00:44:20,497 --> 00:44:35,457
So my question to you is, you know, why do you think that leaders sometimes have difficulty in prioritizing the systems and the strategies that will best support our students with learning and thinking differences.
404
00:44:36,632 --> 00:44:37,022
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
405
00:44:37,022 --> 00:44:39,042
I'm going to go back N of 1.
406
00:44:39,232 --> 00:44:39,702
Okay.
407
00:44:39,752 --> 00:44:41,482
This is all my experience.
408
00:44:42,112 --> 00:45:06,442
But when I was doing my administrative credential in California, you do a preliminary credential, and I don't remember what the coursework is, but there was one
class, there was one class that had to do with special ed, and I had the opportunity The distinct pleasure to sit next to a person who was a school psychologist.
409
00:45:06,885 --> 00:45:12,185
And so the professor would be talking about, oh, this is how you do a student study team.
410
00:45:12,185 --> 00:45:13,535
And this is how you do an IEP.
411
00:45:13,805 --> 00:45:16,865
And all the time she'd just be like poking me, says, that's not right.
412
00:45:16,925 --> 00:45:17,535
That's not right.
413
00:45:17,545 --> 00:45:18,225
That's not right.
414
00:45:18,525 --> 00:45:24,104
And so I had the opportunity to have somebody tell me how it should be.
415
00:45:24,284 --> 00:45:27,314
And then my wife was a special ed teacher.
416
00:45:27,614 --> 00:45:30,494
And I got to know more about how it should be.
417
00:45:30,774 --> 00:45:33,944
So my point is they don't learn about it.
418
00:45:34,454 --> 00:45:36,834
Special ed becomes this ancillary thing.
419
00:45:36,834 --> 00:45:39,364
That's a pain in the butt that you have to do.
420
00:45:39,994 --> 00:45:43,564
And there are decisions made that are contrary to law.
421
00:45:44,214 --> 00:45:47,214
And then it's all about being defensive, getting into trouble.
422
00:45:47,344 --> 00:45:48,664
So to.
423
00:45:49,059 --> 00:45:50,259
put a ribbon around this.
424
00:45:50,319 --> 00:45:51,659
I just don't think they know.
425
00:45:52,479 --> 00:45:57,949
And unless it's changed a lot, I just don't think that the preparation is there.
426
00:45:58,469 --> 00:46:01,529
And so if you don't have the coursework, where are you going to learn?
427
00:46:01,549 --> 00:46:02,769
You're going to learn on the job.
428
00:46:02,819 --> 00:46:08,419
And if the school is not doing a good job, then it's just perpetuated.
429
00:46:08,479 --> 00:46:11,029
And so, oh, you can't make it to the IEP meeting.
430
00:46:11,169 --> 00:46:11,629
Okay.
431
00:46:11,629 --> 00:46:15,419
Send a report, show up for five minutes, you know, and so, because.
432
00:46:15,642 --> 00:46:24,402
It's not important because of there is no system, there is no understanding of, so that's why I think, you know, and so it's all defensive.
433
00:46:24,402 --> 00:46:25,702
How do we stay out of trouble?
434
00:46:25,952 --> 00:46:28,422
How do we not get a suit brought against us?
435
00:46:30,082 --> 00:46:42,862
Jana Lee: I think it's interesting too that in so many states special education teachers have to get their gen ed license, but gen ed teachers don't have to get their special ed license, and leaders don't have to have their special education license.
436
00:46:43,532 --> 00:46:47,092
So that for me just sets, I mean, that says a lot, right?
437
00:46:47,152 --> 00:46:47,422
I mean,
438
00:46:47,762 --> 00:46:50,652
Gene Tavernetti: yeah, well, I'm going to, I'm going to tell you how disappointed I was.
439
00:46:51,217 --> 00:47:11,647
The first time, here I am as an administrator, and have sat through all of these IEPs and student studies, and then, okay, well, they need the special support that's
going to come from the special day class, and then you walk in, and it's not, there's nothing different going on, and there's just, except there's eight of them.
440
00:47:11,937 --> 00:47:13,287
Instead of 30.
441
00:47:14,087 --> 00:47:18,967
And I was very disappointed and said, No, you know, I didn't have an answer.
442
00:47:18,967 --> 00:47:20,987
I just knew that there was a problem
443
00:47:21,987 --> 00:47:22,387
Jana Lee: Well,
444
00:47:22,947 --> 00:47:24,137
Gene Tavernetti: you got another question for
445
00:47:24,337 --> 00:47:25,587
Jana Lee: I have one more question for you.
446
00:47:25,977 --> 00:47:26,327
Gene Tavernetti: Okay.
447
00:47:26,487 --> 00:47:26,867
Jana Lee: Okay.
448
00:47:26,877 --> 00:47:48,567
So your book, which is phenomenal, and I thank you for writing it because I feel like we need more of that out here in this space, but you talk about your FAST framework, and I really appreciate how you emphasize focusing on one objective per lesson.
449
00:47:48,757 --> 00:47:49,217
Okay.
450
00:47:49,937 --> 00:48:08,677
In my experience, Some teachers tend to extend that objective over a period of two to three days, which can delay checking for understanding
until the second, and in some cases, even third day, because that's the way in which they just spread out this single objective.
451
00:48:08,887 --> 00:48:09,587
Objective.
452
00:48:10,197 --> 00:48:29,747
How do you help teachers recognize the importance of setting a clear objective for each day or each lesson so that they can check for understanding,
provide immediate feedback, and make targeted adjustments as opposed to waiting, you know, two or three days later to see who needs what?
453
00:48:30,297 --> 00:48:33,627
Gene Tavernetti: Several ways, several things, several ways that we talk about it.
454
00:48:34,177 --> 00:48:37,577
And Oh, you got to get my next book about coaching cycles.
455
00:48:37,867 --> 00:48:41,997
But in coaching cycles, I'll sit with a teacher and we'll plan.
456
00:48:42,937 --> 00:48:47,207
And one of my first questions is, okay, so tell me about what you're teaching tomorrow.
457
00:48:47,529 --> 00:48:53,995
And the one of the first things that comes out of their mouth is, well, this is a three day lesson.
458
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:57,640
I say, well, let's just reframe that.
459
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:02,330
Instead of making it a three day lesson, make it three one day lessons.
460
00:49:03,290 --> 00:49:10,010
And because now, without going into a lot of things, now we can do what you just described.
461
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:23,765
So that we have smaller chunks, so that at the end of the day, Because of all your checking for understanding, you know where they are, you know what, how, you know, where they were successful, where they are.
462
00:49:24,095 --> 00:49:32,705
So now in the next day, that's going to impact the next day versus going three days and thinking, holy cow, they didn't understand from the first day.
463
00:49:33,145 --> 00:49:40,190
And so I try to, You know, it gets back to our experience in coaching, like smaller tasks.
464
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:43,680
Let's get smaller tasks that are going to build into something bigger.
465
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,530
I want them to think of it that way, and I want them to realize that it's to their benefit.
466
00:49:48,530 --> 00:49:58,170
It's going to make their life easier when they have to reteach, because when they have to reteach, It's only this big I'm making with my finger and thumb.
467
00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:07,200
It's only this big versus this huge thing that needs to be retaught and a huge thing probably doesn't need to be retaught because it's a small thing.
468
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:13,080
So that's I try to describe it that way, that it's to their benefit, you know, let your kids be successful.
469
00:50:13,110 --> 00:50:14,900
Success builds on success.
470
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:28,260
All of those things, but I think the most important thing is that we have met together to go through some sort of training so that when I say that they understand the reason that I'm saying it.
471
00:50:28,270 --> 00:50:30,540
It's not just, no, I don't like three day lessons.
472
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:34,140
You know, it's like when somebody said, I said, so what are you doing the first day?
473
00:50:34,390 --> 00:50:37,030
Oh, I'm just introducing the topic.
474
00:50:37,070 --> 00:50:40,460
You're introducing what in the world does that mean?
475
00:50:41,555 --> 00:50:45,919
Jonna, here's Algebra, Algebra here's Jonna, now you've been introduced.
476
00:50:47,109 --> 00:50:53,149
In their head they have a rubric in their head of what that they should look like to be a success.
477
00:50:53,409 --> 00:51:07,629
So I kind of talk about it, you know, that way and depending and I would have liked to be in the room ahead of time so I know how they do things so that I can relate it to, uh, what they're doing.
478
00:51:08,629 --> 00:51:09,409
Jana Lee: Yeah, I agree.
479
00:51:09,419 --> 00:51:19,399
And I think that when the moment you ask, at least in my experience, the moment I asked teachers to start to describe the objective, it's like, it goes back to what you just said.
480
00:51:19,419 --> 00:51:28,179
They like have it in their head, but the moment they have to explicitly state it, it becomes like, kind of goes in circles.
481
00:51:28,179 --> 00:51:30,759
They struggle with being able to communicate.
482
00:51:31,309 --> 00:51:34,449
What that objective is and when we can nail that down.
483
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,449
And I've had teachers be like, wait, whoa, this is like, like, I knew what I wanted.
484
00:51:38,589 --> 00:51:42,279
I knew, like, I know, but I'm just having trouble saying it out loud.
485
00:51:42,279 --> 00:51:44,179
And it's like, well, we got to be able to say it out loud.
486
00:51:44,189 --> 00:51:47,719
We have to be able to communicate it, not just for ourselves, but also for our students.
487
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:48,679
And so, yeah.
488
00:51:49,389 --> 00:51:52,909
Gene Tavernetti: Once you can get it down to, you're going to kick with the outside of your foot.
489
00:51:53,459 --> 00:51:54,479
Now you could teach it.
490
00:51:54,589 --> 00:51:55,419
Now you could teach it.
491
00:51:55,429 --> 00:51:56,029
You can't teach.
492
00:51:57,919 --> 00:51:58,769
Jana Lee: Like, okay.
493
00:51:59,509 --> 00:52:00,599
10 years old.
494
00:52:01,019 --> 00:52:08,052
Gene Tavernetti: Oh, Jada, is there anything that you would like to, we'll get your let's see, you're on Instagram.
495
00:52:08,182 --> 00:52:09,852
You're on X. We'll get all of those.
496
00:52:09,872 --> 00:52:10,512
You're on LinkedIn.
497
00:52:11,522 --> 00:52:12,352
Jana Lee: the things.
498
00:52:12,432 --> 00:52:13,792
I'm on all the things.
499
00:52:13,872 --> 00:52:14,132
Gene Tavernetti: Yeah.
500
00:52:14,172 --> 00:52:15,422
All the socials, as they
501
00:52:15,582 --> 00:52:15,792
Jana Lee: All the
502
00:52:15,832 --> 00:52:16,372
Gene Tavernetti: the socials.
503
00:52:16,822 --> 00:52:17,332
Yeah.
504
00:52:17,582 --> 00:52:21,342
And I'm going to recommend, you know, we'll get your website in there.
505
00:52:21,342 --> 00:52:21,402
All right.
506
00:52:21,542 --> 00:52:27,912
of course, because of, you know, you do have a lot of free resources available to folks and your newsletter so.
507
00:52:28,102 --> 00:52:28,972
Jana Lee: there's a lot there.
508
00:52:28,972 --> 00:52:40,037
You know, I think that we're in this space where it really should not should not cost a lot of money to be able to just get the job done and ultimately support our most precious population, which is, you know, us.
509
00:52:40,397 --> 00:52:41,087
Students.
510
00:52:41,397 --> 00:53:07,427
So with that in mind, over the summer, I developed a monthly subscription package as well, where for six bucks a month leaders can receive right delivered to their inbox the beginning of the month, done for you professional
development and resources that can be turnkeyed to teachers as an as a way to, you know, still provide high quality support to teachers without breaking the bank and without, you know, adding on to time and energy.
511
00:53:07,727 --> 00:53:08,467
That they don't have.
512
00:53:08,477 --> 00:53:18,064
So very likewise, you know, excited to be in this space with you just trying to support, you know, tough times in education.
513
00:53:18,074 --> 00:53:19,464
We're all just trying to make it better.
514
00:53:20,665 --> 00:53:27,675
Gene Tavernetti: Well, Johnna, it is always a joy talking to you, and thank you for being on here, and we'll have to do it again.
515
00:53:28,350 --> 00:53:28,860
Jana Lee: We will.
516
00:53:28,930 --> 00:53:30,370
Thank you so much for having me, Jean.
517
00:53:30,485 --> 00:53:32,075
Gene Tavernetti: All right, bye bye.
518
00:53:34,952 --> 00:53:46,052
If you are enjoying these podcasts, please give us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts, and you can find me on Twitter, x at G Tabernetti, and on my website, tesscg.
519
00:53:46,912 --> 00:53:59,422
com, that's T E S C G dot com, where you'll get information about how to order my books, teach fast, focused, adaptable, structured teaching, and maximizing the impact of coaching cycles.
520
00:53:59,682 --> 00:54:00,672
Thank you for listening.
521
00:54:00,742 --> 00:54:01,672
We'll talk to you soon
