WEBVTT
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Okay.
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Welcome, Hive Mind.
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We are buzzing with excitement about today's guest, Melena DiMartini, a certified trainer and counselor, CTC, and certified dog behavior consultant, CDBC.
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Today we're talking about separation-related behavior problems with Melena, who has specialized exclusively in canine separation anxiety since 2001, working with many hundreds of cases and constantly innovating to find better ways to treat the condition and support guardians, other trainers, and shelters.
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Melena is renowned worldwide for her success in helping countless dogs and the people who love them overcome this debilitating issue through her books, online courses, and one-to-one training.
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Thank you, Melena, for joining us to set the record straight on the hottest and most controversial topics.
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We're excited to have you on the Behavior Buzz Podcast, a veterinary behavior podcast that aims to bring cutting-edge, scientific information, and education to pet parents, behavior professionals, and the veterinary community.
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I'm your co-host, Dr.
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Amy Pike, a board-certified veterinary behaviorist.
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And I am the other co-host, Dr.
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Amy Lern, also a board-certified veterinary behaviorist, and we are coming to you live from the PRN PharmaCal Studios.
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So let's get started by finding out what's getting us all buzzed today.
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I am sharing a drink called loneliness, but it's better than drinking alone.
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That's a quote from the piano man.
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Perfect for today's episode.
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Yeah, I love it.
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I love it.
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And today I also think I have a perfect drink.
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I'm drinking a Regal Beagle.
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And you'll find out later in this podcast why I picked this particular drink.
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What about you, Milena?
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What do you have?
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Well, of course, there's gotta be a wonderful beverage in my hand as well.
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And I am drinking a serene snout spiced chai.
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Woo!
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That's amazing! And so hot.
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I mean very big.
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So remember, you can find all of our signature cocktail and mocktail recipes on our website, behaviorbuzz.com.
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That's behaviorbuzz with six C's, because separation-related behavior can be hazardous.
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Okay, well, let's dive in, shall we?
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We'll get started with these questions and see what Melena's all about.
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So it's an alphabet soup out there, ladies.
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First of all, you teach skilled dog professionals to become CSATs.
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So what does that stand for?
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And what about essa, separation anxiety, separation-related behavior, separation distress, separation-related problems?
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What do all these terms mean?
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And in your opinion, what's the most appropriate terminology that we should be using?
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I love that you ask this question for so many reasons.
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So thank you for bringing it in.
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So just to first start it off, yes, I do teach skilled dog professionals to work with separation related behaviors.
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We'll start there.
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We may change our mind.
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And uh when they graduate, they are called CSATs, which is certified separation anxiety trainer.
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Now, that's enough alphabet soup on the certification side because we could talk about that all day long about how many letters are available to people out there.
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But I think it's a whole other episode.
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Whole different episode, whole different episode.
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Um, but you did mention a number of these alphabet soup letters and uh acronyms and so forth, like SA for separation anxiety, and I mentioned separation related behaviors, so SRB, and there's a host of others that you didn't even list here, and we won't go into them.
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I think it's really important when you ask about what's the most appropriate terminology that we should be using.
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I think it's really important to remember that the terminology that we choose is indeed a label, no matter how hard we try.
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It is indeed a label.
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And there are purposes for labels, particularly when communicating with other professionals.
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If I am talking to you, let's say, about separation-related behaviors, and we have the same definition and understanding of what that means, then we can communicate effectively based on our definitions.
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But I also want to remind people that labels have maybe a different meaning when we're talking to your average dog caretaker.
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The majority, if not really almost all, of the guardians that reach out to us talk about separation anxiety.
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It is the most common terminology that is used on a more global level.
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While there's a considerable amount of education that we can provide to dog guardians, being able to relate to them on their own, in their own terminology within their lexicon is really useful.
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And so I do repeat back to them their own language, like separation anxiety.
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I think the jury, last thing I'd say, I think the jury is still out on, even in the research, whether we're gonna do separation-related behaviors, separation-related problems.
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There's small nuances.
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And so we'll see what ends up becoming the tried and true in the long run.
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Yeah, just wait 10 years, someone will change it.
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Oh, yeah, they will.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And I think that distinction is really important, right?
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Because I say the word separation anxiety all the time, especially when I'm talking to my clients.
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That's the word that they're used to.
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But when I'm lecturing for professionals, just like you said, I will fine-tune it a little bit and kind of discriminate about what those words really mean and what we're really talking about, make those definitions there.
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And so that's important to kind of figure out who your audience is and how can they relate to you and what you're really talking about.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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So, Melina, what help do you and other CSATs provide for pet parents with a dog struggling with separation-related behaviors?
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Essentially, what are the goals of your therapy and treatment?
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You know, though there's there's some overriding goals and then there's some smaller, um, nuanced goals.
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But I think as the best answer, I would say that, you know, what we do is give clients extremely tailored training for the individual dog and the individual guardian.
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Okay.
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I hope that if nothing else gets taken away from our conversation today, that everybody, I know you both, Dr.
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Learn, Dr.
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Pike, know this, but everybody needs to remember that each dog is unique in their presentation of separation anxiety, separation-related behaviors.
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Every environment is different, and the environment is also influential on the dog's um behavior and body language.
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And that environment also includes differentiating factors of the caretakers themselves, right?
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So sometimes it's a family, sometimes it's an individual, sometimes it's someone that is um, you know, really big, busybody, and sometimes it's someone that it's very more uh low-key.
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And so all of those factors impact the individuality of the case in front of us.
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And so we spend tremendous, tremendous amounts of time making sure that that protocol that we implement, which we do so five days a week with every client, that that is tailored specifically to that person.
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Now, you also asked about the goals of therapy slash treatment.
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And I personally think that the goals of behavior modification for separation-related behavior problems, those goals are really to a gently and humanely teach the dog that alone time is safe.
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Okay.
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And I think safety is often not understood as being one of the primary goals because I often hear that we should really be teaching the dog to quote unquote love their alone time.
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And I I don't know, I think as an extremely social species, we can understand that being alone is not particularly fun.
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So getting them to like literally love being alone might be a might be difficult.
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They don't have much to do.
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There's no one there to play with or cuddle with.
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So to me, that feeling safe, comfortable, secure is the main goal.
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And when that is accomplished, we don't see those signs of anxious or fearful behavior anymore, like barking, destruction, elimination, etc.
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I love that.
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Yeah, I think that's great.
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And that's a really great way to phrase it, right?
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Because nobody loves being alone.
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But if they can feel safe and calm for the time that they are stuck being alone, then that helps them get through the day and and secondarily helps their pet parent get also get through the day and do the things that they have to do.
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Yeah.
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Oh, I actually wanted to add something that I just remind you reminded of me as you started speaking, Dr.
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Larn.
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You know, when you'd asked about CSATs, uh they're super very highly skilled behavior consultants.
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But one thing that we also do, which you have done so beautifully with us and have so many other VBs as well, we have really, really detailed methods of tracking progress and changes in medication and other condition or phase changes.
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And all the data that we track allows us to adjust criteria daily if needed to get to that most efficient and effective resolution.
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And we work super closely with people like you because we need to collaborate about the dog's medication needs if they are in play.
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And I think really the team approach is so important for a successful outcome.
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Absolutely.
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You gave me the perfect window for my new idea.
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I think I did.
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I think I did.
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So I was gonna ask you, what about the use of medications?
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You know, many, many, many years ago, medications were the last resort.
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And that is thankfully changing more often.
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And so tell me about that in addition to train, obviously, behavior modification.
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How do you feel about the use of medications?
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So it's funny that you say, you know, medication used to be kind of the last resort.
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I had been working with separation-related behaviors for 23 years now, and probably 22 years ago was when I realized and felt very strongly that medication in combination with behavior modification was truly a game changer for many, many dogs.
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I think there's a lot of myths surrounding medication, and sometimes not just the myth, but sometimes some pretty significant restrictions and resistance to its use, right?
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From from the human, from the human, we're human too, from the guardian side, from the pet parent side.
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You know, I I have heard so many times where a caretaker says, and you have, I'm sure, heard this many more times than I have.
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I don't want to dope my dog, I don't want them to be a zombie, you know.
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But we know that this nothing could be further from the truth with the kind of medications that are used for this issue.
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And I think that the medications used for separation-related issues are truly intended to enhance learning and retention.
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So we're not trying to sedate the dog, and I think it's so important that people hear that because we wouldn't we wouldn't get enhanced learning and retention if we were sedating the dog.
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We would get neither, right?
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Um, so I've worked with a lot, a lot, a lot of veterinary professionals over the year.
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And as you mentioned, that common thread is that medication now should be considered potentially a first-line therapy uh as opposed to a last result.
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And just we have to remember these dogs are are suffering.
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And as they're as they're caretakers, we kind of have an obligation to relieve that suffering with the combination of training, behavior modification, and and and medication.
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Absolutely.
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And and I think a lot of that, like I don't want to sedate my dog.
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We've talked about this before on the podcast, stems from, you know, we really only had ace promosine a long time ago or ametryptalin, which can be really, you know, quite sedating.
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So, you know, times have changed, thankfully.
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Um, but I love that you are a very big proponent of using the combination, because as you know, we are too.
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So we are too.
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And I'm so very grateful for that.
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Absolutely.
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Well, so during the course of treatment, one of the sort of hallmarks of what you guys uh will coach the clients on is that they they have to suspend those absences that aren't a part of your missions, right?
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So, what if someone absolutely cannot suspend those absences?
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Um, the dog is either reactive and can't go to daycare, or like they can't accept, you know, a dog babysitter inside the home because they're also have stranger danger.
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And like us, you know, Amy and I, we can't work from home.
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So what do we do for those cases?
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Yeah.
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Well, I I wanted to speak to those cases, but in doing so, I want to remind everybody that's listening that those are actually a much smaller pool of the population.
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I don't want to not give credence and validation to those individuals who have the reactive dog that has stranger danger, and they work 10 hours out of the home, et cetera, et cetera.
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I'm being a little facetious, but what I mean is what we see, at least in here in my individual business, is that the majority of the clients are already managing their dogs alone time when they reach out to us.
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And if they're not, they are very surprised to hear that there are very creative and super interesting options out there that go well beyond just daycare and a dog sitter.
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And I think we're only limited by our creativity.
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I love, I mean, I could go on and on and on about certain examples of creativity, and I just want to remind people that even those dogs that have strange or danger or reactivity, you know, we start out with a small circle, a very small circle, and we make that circle a little bigger and a little bigger so that that management can be put into place.
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And one thing that I think that is so important about management itself, I always ponder about this.
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I mean, management is part of the laws of learning.
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So, you know, sometimes people kind of say, Well, Melena, you know, you ask these people to not leave their dog alone during training.
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And and I have to remind people like, this is not a Melena arbitrarily chosen thing because she feels like she wants to be mean.
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We know that anxiety inhibits learning.
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We know that the laws of learning require management of the scary stimulus.
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In this case, that would be alone time, and so I think finding very, very creative ways to help these guardians is just so super important.
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I actually, and I'll I'll wrap on this for this question.
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We take a, as you know, we take a lot of data collection stuff, and I pulled one year's worth of data for the last 12 months, and we spoke to 688 prospective clients.
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Now, they're asked on their initial questionnaire whether they can adjust their schedule so their dog will not be left alone during training.
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And they're given an option of yes, no, and maybe.
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And 70% said yes.
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So, right out the gate, people are like, Yeah, I can't leave my dog alone.
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He's getting the neighbors upset or he's destroying my house, or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
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So that's a pretty good, you know, interesting number to realize as a data point.
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And we had some maybes and we had a a handful of no's as well.
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And I think that many of those was a we went into a process of counseling, like, well, what do we do?
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Let's get creative together.
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Mm-hmm.
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And and those are cases too where medication is gonna play a bigger role, too, right?
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Very much so.
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So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I I love that, you know, individualizing your plan, right?
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You you mentioned that a few different times, and in this of all of the all of the behavior therapy plans out there are individualized in in our hands, right?
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There everybody is a study of one.
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Of course.
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But this is one of the the frameworks that is the most individualized because you are collecting so much data and looking at every day of that pet and how they are making their improvements, and that is really informing your plan each step of the way.
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And and that is just amazing to me.
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And you know, that brings us to another topic because there are lots of myths out there about why dogs suffer from we'll just say separation anxiety, right?
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We'll we'll just that's gonna be our term.
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That's what we're gonna use.
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And and that may not be accurate, but that's what we're gonna use for today.
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And so for separation anxiety, you know, why did they get it?
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And how do you treat it?
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And aren't they just gonna grow out of it or leave them alone as you didn't leave them alone enough, or you should leave them alone more so that they can just get over it.
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Why don't you just get a dummy and stuff it and put it on the couch and then you know somebody's home and they should never be upset about it?
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And I have had had clients that have experimented with the dummy, you know, like that would be a great solution if it worked.
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If it worked, I would be throwing a dummy.
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Put your shirt on it so it smells like you, get a dummy, put them on the couch, that's solved the problem.
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You don't have to spend any money or do anything else in the rest of your life.
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So tell me your thoughts and your experience about these things.
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Well, first of all, I just have to start with the dummy because it cracks me up.
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I think about the fact that your whole house smells like you.
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So, like putting your shirt on a dummy makes zero sense.
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Zero, zero sense.
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Uh, but anyway, there are definitely a lot of myths out there.
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And you've mentioned several.
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Um I think we have to remember that because of the welfare and well-being of these dogs is really at stake.
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The idea of just letting them quote, cry it out, or just leaving them until they get over it, that's really concerning to me.
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Being in a state of continued stress can lead to, as you have seen, experienced, and know, both those physiological and psychological issues, right?
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And and it can exacerbate on either end.
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And boy, do I ever understand that people are hoping for a quick fix to this problem.
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And I think that's where a lot of these myths were born, right?
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But currently there isn't a single quick fix that exists from uh just uh a couple of days of leaving them alone to cry it out type of perspective.
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Um, and and I would ask you, I assume that you would agree, but I could be wrong.
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Like even from a medication standpoint, so far we don't have a single medication that will quote fix some separation anxiety because you know there's a lot that can help, but but we don't have a we don't have a quick fix, we don't have a magic pill.
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And the good news though, even though maybe that's hard to hear about not being able to use some of these quick fixes, I think it should be hopefully relieving to hear that there is a way to address separation anxiety.
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It's generally multimodal, right?
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We've got medication, we've got behavior modification, we've got management, and there's a lot of skilled professionals out there to guide people through the process so that people are not alone as they go through it.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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One of the common ones I hear from clients is like, oh, if I just get another dog, are they gonna be okay?
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:31.119
And I had a client, no joke, she heard that myth and she got another dog.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.319
And now, lo and behold, they both have separation anxiety.
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:36.720
So they're both my patients.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:42.400
Well, so what I always dread is they get another dog and now they have interdog aggression.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:43.279
Oh gosh.
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:45.759
I'm like, oh, but now the dogs are trying to kill each other.
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:46.799
So that's great.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.359
That's gonna help everybody's stress level, right?
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:51.599
Oh my gosh, it's endless.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:52.000
I know.
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:59.759
And you know, we just have to put the message out there that like the only reason for getting a second or an additional, I should say, dog is because.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:07.920
Because you and your family and your beloved current dog is excited to have a new family member, right?
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:09.920
Not to fix another dog.
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:10.400
Never.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:11.039
Yeah.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:12.640
Totally, totally.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:16.160
Although, you know, we we talk about there's no quick fixes, right?
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:21.359
Like a fun case that I had back in my residency was a cute little mini schnauzer.
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.000
So of course I remember it very fondly.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:28.720
Um and this dog was very, very medication resistant.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:38.319
Like no amount and no doses of probably four or five different event drugs combined together actually alleviated the dog's panic.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.640
And no joke, the owner, and she didn't do this to fix the separation anxiety.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:43.839
This was not her intent.
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.039
She got a cat.
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:52.720
And no kidding, the cat and the mini schnauzer started snuggling on the couch, and the dog could be left home alone.
00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:57.200
Like I would have never, ever in a million years ago, a mini schnauzer and a cat.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:58.880
But like, come on, right?
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.519
Like we are not recommending this at all.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.279
Listen to our knot.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:06.400
Yeah.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:08.799
But I was like, oh, you've got to be kidding me.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:09.920
Oh my goodness.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.319
So it was a happy ending.
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.200
Well, thank you so much for all the great discussion thus far.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.720
We're gonna take a quick break with a word from our sponsors.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.279
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00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:40.000
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00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:48.640
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00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.079
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00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:57.759
Okay, guys, let's get back down to business.
00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:01.680
Um, why don't we start with getting to know Melena a little bit more, shall we?
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:06.480
What brought you into the training world and why specifically separation anxiety?
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:10.880
Well, you know, as she giggles.
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.440
I giggle because I'm trying not to cry, kind of moment, you know, I'm saying.
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:27.200
Uh as is so common for dog professionals, be they trainers, behavior consultants, vets, veterinary behaviorists, a dog got me into the business, right?
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.480
My own personal private scenario.
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:34.000
This was a very, very, very long time ago.
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:41.599
Um, my previous background, I um worked in data collection and statistics and marketing and stuff like that.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:46.400
Hence the reason I'm such a geek with all the data that we collect about separation anxiety.
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:48.319
You star, you're a nerd, just like we are.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:25:01.279
But this dog, and that and I'm not gonna cry because we don't need crying today, made me realize that I was doing a lot of stuff wrong.
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:08.640
And I took a sabbatical from work and I attended Gene Donaldson's The Academy for Dog Trainers.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:32.079
And by the time I finished that education, you know, I've never experienced a moment like that from an educational experience that was truly transformational, not just in the way that I worked with animals, meaning dogs, cats, etc., but in the way that I interacted with human beings.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:40.160
Understanding reinforcement laws and you know that sort of stuff, I it just was fascinating to me.
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:49.839
So I started practicing in 2001, and one of my very, very first cases was a separation anxiety case.
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:55.119
And that case was really pivotal for me.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.759
This was back in the day when you actually picked up the phone.
00:25:57.839 --> 00:25:59.279
My phone rang and I actually picked it up.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.519
You went down the hallway to where the phone was to die.
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:04.880
Picked up the phone.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:12.559
You'd sat on your phone bench table, tuck some notes in your pencil, and looked at two.
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:20.400
Uh so I picked up the phone and she was, you know, saying that her dog could not be left alone, and she was crying.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:31.519
And I said, gosh, I'm a I'm a really green trainer, and I know a little bit about the principles of resolving this issue, but I am I'm not the right person for you.
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:33.599
I'd like to give you some referrals.
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:46.559
And she started bawling and said, through her tears, said, if you're gonna give me some names of other trainers, can you at least make sure that they will work with separation anxiety?
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:53.039
Because you are the seventh person that I've spoken to that said no to me to help.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:54.319
Oh man.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:58.319
And my heart just went into my throat.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:00.240
I just thought a couple things.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:05.359
Number one, oh, how horrible for her was like my first initial thought.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:17.599
And then my second thought was what a devoted and wonderful guardian that she's like, I'm just gonna keep calling until I find someone that's gonna help me.
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:23.599
Long story short, I knew that the two or three names that I were I was gonna give her were would also say no.
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:25.920
Nobody was taking separation anxiety back then.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:28.640
It was kind of taboo, yucky, yucky, yucky.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:35.599
And I said, Listen, I'll start working with you on some basic principles, and we'll get UC Davis involved.
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:39.119
This was local in the Bay Area here, and all that stuff.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:43.680
And the dog's name was Guinness, and I'll just never forget him.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:49.519
And we were very lucky that his his anxiety was resolved fairly quickly.
00:27:49.759 --> 00:28:07.920
But I want to mention, I cannot take credit for that because retrospectively, a few months later, looking back at my experience with Guinness, was he really was a rags to riches dog and just needed a little transition time, and he would have been fine without all of my meddling.
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:10.319
I love it.
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:16.240
But he gave me the love and passion for this issue, and I I am forever grateful for that.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:18.480
You should be drinking a Guinness today.
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:24.319
I'll drink one for you when I go to Ireland.
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:26.000
I love that.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:27.680
Perfect.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:28.960
Oh my goodness.
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:32.880
So let's take a moment to kind of discuss the difference, right?
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.440
There are millions and millions of trainers out there.
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:40.319
They have lots of different philosophies, which is not the topic of this podcast.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:46.160
But there are also really devoted high-level trainers that specialize in different things, right?
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.079
Agility in sports and obedience and what have you.
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:58.240
So, what is the difference between all of those trainers and what a certified separation anxiety trainer does?
00:28:58.960 --> 00:28:59.599
Yeah.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:11.519
I think it's really important to recognize the I never like to use the word severity, but it's the only word that's coming to my mind at the moment.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:14.480
So the severity of this behavior issue.
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:21.359
And when I use the word severity, I mean from a well-being and welfare aspect for the dog.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:26.319
I also mean for quality of life for the caretaker.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:37.279
I mean, there's so many pieces of this behavior issue that really rank it up there with, ooh, it's complex and there are many nuances to it.
00:29:37.599 --> 00:30:10.160
And while I know a host of really, really great obedience trainers and general behavior trainers, I think that the level of detail nuance and for lack of better words, severity of the issue is something that takes a devoted, skilled individual to really understand what they are seeing, when they are seeing it, and how to adjust criteria based on those particular pieces of the puzzle.
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:35.599
You know, the amount of body language and behavior that we record, I don't know how much of our spreadsheets you are seeing, but I know when looking at that particular dog, when his eyes blink for the third time, it's time to call the people back because the fourth time is gonna lead into a whine, which will lead into a bark, which will lead into a howl, which will lead into right.
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:43.680
And so, I mean, we know so much little bits of detail about each and every dog in front of us.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:49.279
And of course, we're total nerds when it comes to data collection, and we love to work with vets and BVs.
00:30:49.519 --> 00:31:00.799
So I think I think we we have to give big kudos to behavior professionals that work with a variety of different cases.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:04.319
And I think it takes a special person to know how to do it all.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:14.400
And I just would urge people to think about because this kind of behavior is so special, it should be a specialized individual that works with it.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:16.720
Yeah, and it takes a lot of time and effort.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:17.920
It takes a lot of time.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.759
There's a lot of follow-up, a lot of detail, like you said, that goes into it.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:32.480
And I know a lot of my trainers don't like working with separation anxiety because and so you know, I love that everyone has their niche that they want to kind of fill, and this is fabulous.
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:44.559
So now, Melena, do you think there are risk factors for development of separation anxiety, like specific breeds or experiences that correlate to a higher chance of separation anxiety?
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:55.200
And this is why I picked my cocktail, because in our practice, if we are seeing a separation anxiety dog, all the staff go, let me guess it's a beagle.
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:56.400
It's a beagle.
00:31:57.759 --> 00:31:59.279
So is that true?
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:00.960
Do I have something behind this?
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:03.920
So funny, so so funny.
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:07.680
Well, I have two sort of funny pieces to the answer to this question.
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:20.720
And the first is regarding beagles, and that just kills me because not only have I worked with a lot of beagles, I have a colleague, Catherine Gabriel, who is just incredible.
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:25.119
And she had a beagle with separation-related behavior problem.
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:34.000
And when she started working with me, she was like, Well, that dog's a beagle, and this dog's a beagle, and that dog's a beagle, and you have all these beagle pictures.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:42.240
And and I, and so I told her, which I'll talk to you about in a minute, about the risk factors, et cetera, or or potential breed specific.
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:50.319
And she said, Yeah, but nobody's done a really concerted research study just on beagles.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:54.559
So I think when that's gets done, you might be singing a different tune.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:55.839
And I said, Well, fair enough.
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:56.319
Okay.
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:16.720
But I think the funny story that I have to tell about this question, well, first of all, I want to dispel the myth here when we're talking about risk factors, that we are somehow, as the individual caretaker, creating by you know, letting the dog sleep on the bed with us or something of that nature.
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:19.200
That has been refuted for so long.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:26.240
We know a lot about what doesn't cause separation anxiety, like spoiling the dog and that kind of stuff.
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:29.839
We know very little about what does.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:45.680
We have a few, a few research studies that are a little more recent that are showing a genetic component, which is fascinating, and hopefully that influences our more targeted medications in the future.
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:49.839
But I just want to dispel that myth because this is a good question to do so.
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:57.519
So here's the funny and kind of embarrassing story since I just told you that I was working as a statistician and marketing stuff.
00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:07.359
When I first started working with separation anxiety, there wasn't Zoom and there wasn't all this stuff, none of this stuff.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:08.800
None of this stuff, right?
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:12.079
So my clients were all local.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:23.119
And during a presentation about 20 years ago, someone asked me this question and said, you know, are there specific breeds that are more prone to separation anxiety?
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:31.519
And I thought about the question and said, you know, I don't think there's any research about the topic, and I haven't heard anything specific.
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:41.760
But gosh, you know, my caseload of separation anxiety afflicted dogs is made up of a whole lot of pit bulls.
00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:49.519
And so, of course, there everyone, you know, scratched their head like, oh, maybe pit bulls, you know, super sensitive, whatever, I don't know.
00:34:49.760 --> 00:35:00.320
And then fast forward to about 2009 when I started working entirely remotely because we had things like FaceTime and all the rest, and Skype and so forth.
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:03.280
And I started taking clients all over the world.
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:12.480
Well, golly gee, I started to see so many breeds represented in my caseload.
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:21.920
And it kind of dawned on me that the reason I had only been seeing pitbulls was that I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area, and that's the most popular breed of dog in this area.
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:30.480
So I had to laugh at myself, like talk about a bad data collection processing moment, but you know, there's some bias there.
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:32.559
Exactly.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:40.320
So we do the same thing, like people say, you know, which dogs you see the most often and which dogs are you see, so many aggressive dogs, you know, whatever.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.559
And it doesn't matter what the behavior condition is.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.360
It is really the the town that you're in, right?
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:48.639
Rottweilers and pit bulls when I was in Philadelphia.
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:55.440
Now that I'm in Virginia, I see a lot of hounds because maybe there are a lot of hunters and maybe they don't want that dog.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:00.880
That dog falls out of you know favor because they're not really good at their job and and they end up in the shelter.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:04.880
And so we have different populations in different areas for various reasons.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:06.559
That's exactly right.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:07.840
That's exactly right.
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:12.000
So I would say there's too many factors involved.
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:12.320
Yeah.
00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:17.119
And particularly when that we don't know exactly what causes separation anxiety.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:24.800
If we don't know what causes it, we we certainly can't start to make any estimations about this breed or that other breed.
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:25.679
Absolutely.
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:27.840
Well, dang, it's not all beagles.
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:30.559
Not all beagles, is the end of the story.
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:31.920
Not all beagles.
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.599
So let's talk about some of those interesting cases.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.960
You just said you've been seeing cases for 20 years.
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:45.599
You've racked up a whole lot of stuff that is strange and interesting.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:50.480
So, what is the most difficult or interesting separation anxiety case that you've ever had?
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:51.760
And kind of describe why.
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:53.280
Tell tell us a little bit about that.
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:56.400
Yes, open up the storybook and learn.
00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:10.000
So the questions like this are sort of hard because you start, and this must happen to you both as well, where you're like, well, there was that one that no, but you know, this other one that was so, and this one was, you know, right?
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:28.239
So but I really want to lean into the fact that they're all, yes, incredibly interesting because each one is so unique, and they're all a little bit difficult by nature of this behavior.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:28.800
Okay.
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:40.559
It's a slow process, it takes a lot of adjustment, it takes a lot of working with vets and veterinary behaviorists and consulting back and forth.
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:42.079
It takes a whole village.
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.800
So I thought about what makes a case super interesting.
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:56.320
And I think the most interesting aspects are the various pre-departure cues and post-departure cues that people have.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.440
And there's some good news here.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:07.280
You know, people are so worried about pre-departure cues, and if and we call them PDQs, and you know, I we always say, don't fear the PDQ.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:17.199
Because if you're teaching a dog that alone time is safe, then the things that predict alone time are also safe, right?
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:18.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:23.760
But it's so funny that you know, people have their habits when they go to leave the house.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:28.159
And we get to know their habits pretty intimately.
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:47.119
You know, we and it's just funny looking at some of the things like the the client that had to remove the pillows off of the couch because she felt that the pillows were expensive and her dog had never destroyed an item ever.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:56.719
But somehow she had to before walking out the door, and she had like 10 decorative pillows on the couch, and she had to go put them in the closet.
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:07.760
And uh, I had a lovely client that had several cats and was very nervous about letting the cats and the dog be alone together.
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:13.599
They were fine together when she was there, or she felt fine when when they were when they were home.
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:28.800
And oh my gosh, the process of literally hurting cats to get them in a separate area and putting up all of the, you know, and here's your rope thingy majigger and your jute climbing thing, and your oh my god.
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.840
And you know, you're like, how are we ever gonna get out the door?
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:36.639
Right, you know, but three-hour ritual.
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:49.920
But fortunately, since we don't introduce pre-departure cues until we've gained at least a little bit of safe alone time, it doesn't, it doesn't take forever.
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:56.639
But it's fun, it's really fun and interesting looking at all the uniqueness in every single person's routine.
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:04.239
Yeah, I remember my mom's dog after I went off to college, her little Bishan had some mild to moderate separation anxiety.
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:10.000
And the trigger for Kenzie was my mom would spray her hair with AquaNet.
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:13.039
Like that's what set the dog off.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:14.880
It's like, uh-oh, mom's leaving.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:16.800
She didn't do hairspray otherwise.
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:17.360
Yeah.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:20.960
So and once they left the 80s, the dog was dry.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:24.559
No, I think my mom still uses AquaNet.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:26.320
So funny.
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:39.440
I had a I have to tell you, that just so reminds me we had a client that that was convinced that when she put on her lipstick in that, like in the vestibule mirror area, that that was the final trigger for her dog.
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:49.039
And you know, the idea of let's put on your lipstick 30-time application when it was bright red and she would look like an absolute clown, you know.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:54.800
Fortunately, by the time we got to the lipstick stage, the dog was like, whatever, you can do anything on it.
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:57.519
Who cares about the lipstick anymore?
00:40:58.239 --> 00:40:59.119
Good thing.
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:00.239
All right, Melena.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:08.719
Well, if you had to pick one thing, we've talked about a lot of amazing things, but one thing that you want the hive mind to take away from today's episode, what would it be?
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:20.400
I think the main thing that I want people to understand, recognize, and feel hopeful about is that they are not alone.
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:22.480
They're not alone in this journey.
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:28.719
There's all sorts of incredible behavior consultants, incredible vets and veterinary behaviorists like Dr.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:29.599
Lern and Dr.
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:30.400
Pike.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:34.719
There are so many people that are out there to help.
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:40.880
There are even resources that are no cost or low cost to provide information.
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:42.800
You are not alone.
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:48.639
And this behavior is one that you should have tremendous hope about.
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:59.039
But I want anybody and everybody to think about it, not in terms of you know, can I go put my dancing shoes on and go out by the next weekend?
00:41:59.440 --> 00:41:59.840
Right?
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:07.280
I want people to think in terms of months, not weeks, but also not think in terms of years.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.360
We're talking typically months.
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:12.800
So there is such hope for this behavior.
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:19.280
And just know that feeling of being alone doesn't have to be there because there's so many people there to support.
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:20.000
I love that.
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:20.880
That's wonderful.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:22.320
I love that sentiment.
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:27.039
So this brings us to another fun part of the podcast.
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:39.920
We end every show with our buzzkill segment, in which we allow our guest, that's you, to bring up some special story, controversy, weirdest thing a client or patient ever did or said.
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:41.760
Now we did already talk about some of those.
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:45.760
So hopefully you can reach deep and get some get some other cool stuff in there.
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:48.559
And that way the hive mind can vote.
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:52.079
Is this buzzworthy or a buzzkill?
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:59.119
Well, I was about to say, well, this is actually but and then I'm but I'm not gonna vote, I'm not gonna sway.
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:00.880
Don't spoil the vote, don't we?
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.400
I don't want to sway the vote, particularly right now, right?
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:17.119
But uh I I wanna tell you one of my favorite stories or scenarios was from now eight or nine years ago at most.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:27.280
This wonderful, wonderful individual was experiencing separation anxiety with one of her dogs.
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:29.920
It it just harkens to the time.
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:34.320
So we've been teaching the CSAT program for 10 years.
00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:38.960
This is our 10-year anniversary this year, and this was about eight years ago.
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:47.199
So 90 gajillion people, when they had separation related issues in their home, just went on Dr.
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:49.679
Google and tried all the crazy things.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.639
And so did this lovely, lovely person.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:44:18.159
And somehow or another, she stumbled upon this advice that she Should find the heaviest, most durable item as large as possible that her dog would have to sort of maneuver and drill holes in it and then put like food in the in the holes.
00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:20.639
And she was like, I'll try anything.
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:37.840
So she went out and hunted around and found the biggest possible thickest, longest wood log and brought it into her home and drilled holes in it and stuffed it with food, convinced that Dr.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:40.079
Google was telling her the right thing to do.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:43.039
Well, I'm sure you understand that that did not work.
00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:59.840
But what was so interesting, and the reason I wanted to mention this case is that after that she was so frustrated and she stumbled across my book and she read in the back that I had been a graduate of the Academy for Dog Trainers, and she's like, I want to learn how to do this.
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:10.000
And so she applied and became a dog trainer through the Academy for Dog Trainers, and then a few years later, she applied to our program and became a CSAT.
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:14.079
And now she is one of her name is Jane Wolf.
00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:19.760
And she is one of the most amazing practitioners for this behavior issue.
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.719
And I just love that it all started out with a wooden log.
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:25.039
Oh my gosh.
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:28.960
I was waiting for a critter that was gonna come out of the log.
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:31.920
It's like, and then her house is full of termites.
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:33.280
Oh, there was a snake.
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:35.679
And I was like, oh no, this is bad.
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:36.960
Just bring it in the log.
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:42.559
Oh god, I could I might I might pass out if I started talking about those kind of critters in my house.
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:44.480
It's gonna be a great story.
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:46.079
And it was a great story.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:50.239
It just didn't take the scary turn that I that your brain did.
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:52.800
I was like, oh, this is a bad part.
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:53.519
Really bad part.
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:54.719
Oh my goodness.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:01.199
Oh, here at the Behavior Buzz, we know you are all busy bees who live and die by the science like we do.
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:04.079
So we'll put all the references from today's show on the website.
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:07.599
So buzz on over to the Honeypot page to find those.
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:20.800
And we just want to say a big thank you to our guest today, Melena DeMartini, and a happy 10-year anniversary to her program, world acclaimed speaker and author and program developer.
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:27.199
This was a fascinating discussion about separation-related behaviors, and we all know how important this problem is.
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:38.320
I also want to thank the sponsor for today's Buzz episode, which is Melina Di Martini, creator of Mission Possible.
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:41.280
Aw, thank you.
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:42.719
That's so kind.
00:46:42.800 --> 00:47:00.800
And uh I hope people, you know, I briefly mentioned right before that you know, there are low cost and no cost resources, and I and I hope that people are gonna go to your references in the honeypot and see if nothing else, see the link there for my website.
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:08.239
And there are I can't, I don't know how many, I've lost count, so many blogs, all free, like lots of content, all free.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:14.960
And then Mission Possible, which is the online self-paced course for guardians, is also available.
00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:27.840
And we will happily provide anybody that gives us the discount code DR2, DR2, as in Dr.
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:29.440
Two, as in the Doctor Two Amy.
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:43.599
As in the two AMEs, the two doctors, DR2, uh, will get you a discount off of Mission Possible so that it is not the$199 lifetime fee.
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:46.239
It will only be$99 for you.
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:48.719
Oh, I feel like we're on Oprah.
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:52.480
We are you get a discount, you get a discount, and you get a discount.
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:55.679
That's wonderful.
00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.119
Thanks for doing that, Melena.
00:47:57.599 --> 00:47:58.400
You're so welcome.
00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:00.960
Thank you both for having me, actually.
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:01.519
This was fun.
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:02.480
Of course.
00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:04.159
Yeah, we love having you.
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:11.360
Thank you to our premium sponsor, PRN PharmaCal, the makers of Reconcile.
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:18.480
Reconcile is an FDA-approved drug for the treatment of canine separation anxiety in conjunction with the behavior modification plan.
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:29.039
PRN PharmaCal is committed to meeting the evolving needs of modern veterinary medicine and dedicated to developing products to strengthen the bond between pets and their people.
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:44.159
Thank you to our amazing sponsor, Milena DiMartini Incorporated, founder of the Separation Anxiety Certification Program for Dog Professionals and creator of the Mission Possible online course for guardians.
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:52.079
Milena and her team of certified separation anxiety trainers work remotely with clients whose dogs are suffering from separation anxiety.
00:48:52.320 --> 00:49:01.119
Whether you are a dog owner or a dog professional, find the perfect resources to start your separation anxiety journey at MilenaDMartini.com.
00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:13.280
So, and an even bigger thank you to our hive mind, because without listeners like you, we would have nothing to buzz on about.
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:18.480
So grab a drink or a mock tail and join us next time for cocktails and conversations.
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:21.119
Follow us on all our socials.
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:29.840
Facebook at Behavior Buzz, Instagram at BehaviorBuzz, and our website, behaviorbuzz.com.
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:33.280
Be positive, be informed.
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:34.719
Now Buzz.
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:40.079
Okay, if you don't like it, that's fine.
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:46.480
He's like, leave it to the professional.
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:50.079
He's like, that was terrible, and your ears are awful.
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:52.559
And that's why you remember even recording.
00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:58.639
All right, I'm gonna stop recording.
00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:04.480
Okay.
00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:09.519
Welcome, Hive Mind.
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:20.000
We are buzzing with excitement about today's guest, Melena DiMartini, a certified trainer and counselor, CTC, and certified dog behavior consultant, CDBC.
00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:37.920
Today we're talking about separation-related behavior problems with Melena, who has specialized exclusively in canine separation anxiety since 2001, working with many hundreds of cases and constantly innovating to find better ways to treat the condition and support guardians, other trainers, and shelters.
00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:48.880
Melena is renowned worldwide for her success in helping countless dogs and the people who love them overcome this debilitating issue through her books, online courses, and one-to-one training.
00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:54.240
Thank you, Melena, for joining us to set the record straight on the hottest and most controversial topics.
00:00:54.399 --> 00:01:06.480
We're excited to have you on the Behavior Buzz Podcast, a veterinary behavior podcast that aims to bring cutting-edge, scientific information, and education to pet parents, behavior professionals, and the veterinary community.
00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:07.760
I'm your co-host, Dr.
00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:10.959
Amy Pike, a board-certified veterinary behaviorist.
00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:13.120
And I am the other co-host, Dr.
00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:21.120
Amy Lern, also a board-certified veterinary behaviorist, and we are coming to you live from the PRN PharmaCal Studios.
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:26.879
So let's get started by finding out what's getting us all buzzed today.
00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:32.640
I am sharing a drink called loneliness, but it's better than drinking alone.
00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:35.519
That's a quote from the piano man.
00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:40.959
Perfect for today's episode.
00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:42.640
Yeah, I love it.
00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:43.519
I love it.
00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:46.239
And today I also think I have a perfect drink.
00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.480
I'm drinking a Regal Beagle.
00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:52.000
And you'll find out later in this podcast why I picked this particular drink.
00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:53.040
What about you, Milena?
00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:54.079
What do you have?
00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:59.200
Well, of course, there's gotta be a wonderful beverage in my hand as well.
00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:04.400
And I am drinking a serene snout spiced chai.
00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:05.680
Woo!
00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:09.199
That's amazing! And so hot.
00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:11.439
I mean very big.
00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:22.560
So remember, you can find all of our signature cocktail and mocktail recipes on our website, behaviorbuzz.com.
00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:29.360
That's behaviorbuzz with six C's, because separation-related behavior can be hazardous.
00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:33.680
Okay, well, let's dive in, shall we?
00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:37.680
We'll get started with these questions and see what Melena's all about.
00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:44.800
So it's an alphabet soup out there, ladies.
00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:49.039
First of all, you teach skilled dog professionals to become CSATs.
00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:50.639
So what does that stand for?
00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:57.039
And what about essa, separation anxiety, separation-related behavior, separation distress, separation-related problems?
00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:58.800
What do all these terms mean?
00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:03.919
And in your opinion, what's the most appropriate terminology that we should be using?
00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:08.719
I love that you ask this question for so many reasons.
00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:10.879
So thank you for bringing it in.
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:20.960
So just to first start it off, yes, I do teach skilled dog professionals to work with separation related behaviors.
00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:21.759
We'll start there.
00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:23.599
We may change our mind.
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:32.800
And uh when they graduate, they are called CSATs, which is certified separation anxiety trainer.
00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:44.000
Now, that's enough alphabet soup on the certification side because we could talk about that all day long about how many letters are available to people out there.
00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:45.680
But I think it's a whole other episode.
00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:48.159
Whole different episode, whole different episode.
00:03:48.319 --> 00:04:05.840
Um, but you did mention a number of these alphabet soup letters and uh acronyms and so forth, like SA for separation anxiety, and I mentioned separation related behaviors, so SRB, and there's a host of others that you didn't even list here, and we won't go into them.
00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:12.479
I think it's really important when you ask about what's the most appropriate terminology that we should be using.
00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:20.720
I think it's really important to remember that the terminology that we choose is indeed a label, no matter how hard we try.
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:22.639
It is indeed a label.
00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:29.040
And there are purposes for labels, particularly when communicating with other professionals.
00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:43.680
If I am talking to you, let's say, about separation-related behaviors, and we have the same definition and understanding of what that means, then we can communicate effectively based on our definitions.
00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:53.759
But I also want to remind people that labels have maybe a different meaning when we're talking to your average dog caretaker.
00:04:54.240 --> 00:05:03.199
The majority, if not really almost all, of the guardians that reach out to us talk about separation anxiety.
00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:09.680
It is the most common terminology that is used on a more global level.
00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:22.560
While there's a considerable amount of education that we can provide to dog guardians, being able to relate to them on their own, in their own terminology within their lexicon is really useful.
00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:29.759
And so I do repeat back to them their own language, like separation anxiety.
00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:40.160
I think the jury, last thing I'd say, I think the jury is still out on, even in the research, whether we're gonna do separation-related behaviors, separation-related problems.
00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:42.319
There's small nuances.
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:47.199
And so we'll see what ends up becoming the tried and true in the long run.
00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:49.600
Yeah, just wait 10 years, someone will change it.
00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:50.399
Oh, yeah, they will.
00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:51.040
Right.
00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:51.439
Yeah.
00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:54.000
And I think that distinction is really important, right?
00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:58.560
Because I say the word separation anxiety all the time, especially when I'm talking to my clients.
00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:00.079
That's the word that they're used to.
00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:12.319
But when I'm lecturing for professionals, just like you said, I will fine-tune it a little bit and kind of discriminate about what those words really mean and what we're really talking about, make those definitions there.
00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:18.800
And so that's important to kind of figure out who your audience is and how can they relate to you and what you're really talking about.
00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:19.680
Absolutely.
00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:20.079
Yeah.
00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:27.040
So, Melina, what help do you and other CSATs provide for pet parents with a dog struggling with separation-related behaviors?
00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.480
Essentially, what are the goals of your therapy and treatment?
00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:36.800
You know, though there's there's some overriding goals and then there's some smaller, um, nuanced goals.
00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:51.040
But I think as the best answer, I would say that, you know, what we do is give clients extremely tailored training for the individual dog and the individual guardian.
00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:51.519
Okay.
00:06:52.160 --> 00:07:00.000
I hope that if nothing else gets taken away from our conversation today, that everybody, I know you both, Dr.
00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:00.879
Learn, Dr.
00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:11.839
Pike, know this, but everybody needs to remember that each dog is unique in their presentation of separation anxiety, separation-related behaviors.
00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:19.439
Every environment is different, and the environment is also influential on the dog's um behavior and body language.
00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:25.360
And that environment also includes differentiating factors of the caretakers themselves, right?
00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:36.160
So sometimes it's a family, sometimes it's an individual, sometimes it's someone that is um, you know, really big, busybody, and sometimes it's someone that it's very more uh low-key.
00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:43.040
And so all of those factors impact the individuality of the case in front of us.
00:07:43.279 --> 00:08:00.879
And so we spend tremendous, tremendous amounts of time making sure that that protocol that we implement, which we do so five days a week with every client, that that is tailored specifically to that person.
00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:05.439
Now, you also asked about the goals of therapy slash treatment.
00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:23.120
And I personally think that the goals of behavior modification for separation-related behavior problems, those goals are really to a gently and humanely teach the dog that alone time is safe.
00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:24.000
Okay.
00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:39.440
And I think safety is often not understood as being one of the primary goals because I often hear that we should really be teaching the dog to quote unquote love their alone time.
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:48.000
And I I don't know, I think as an extremely social species, we can understand that being alone is not particularly fun.
00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:54.480
So getting them to like literally love being alone might be a might be difficult.
00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:55.919
They don't have much to do.
00:08:56.080 --> 00:08:58.480
There's no one there to play with or cuddle with.
00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:03.840
So to me, that feeling safe, comfortable, secure is the main goal.
00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:12.480
And when that is accomplished, we don't see those signs of anxious or fearful behavior anymore, like barking, destruction, elimination, etc.
00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:14.159
I love that.
00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:15.440
Yeah, I think that's great.
00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:17.120
And that's a really great way to phrase it, right?
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:21.039
Because nobody loves being alone.
00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:34.960
But if they can feel safe and calm for the time that they are stuck being alone, then that helps them get through the day and and secondarily helps their pet parent get also get through the day and do the things that they have to do.
00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:35.600
Yeah.
00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:41.120
Oh, I actually wanted to add something that I just remind you reminded of me as you started speaking, Dr.
00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:42.000
Larn.
00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:48.720
You know, when you'd asked about CSATs, uh they're super very highly skilled behavior consultants.
00:09:48.960 --> 00:10:07.039
But one thing that we also do, which you have done so beautifully with us and have so many other VBs as well, we have really, really detailed methods of tracking progress and changes in medication and other condition or phase changes.
00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:18.159
And all the data that we track allows us to adjust criteria daily if needed to get to that most efficient and effective resolution.
00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:28.320
And we work super closely with people like you because we need to collaborate about the dog's medication needs if they are in play.
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:33.200
And I think really the team approach is so important for a successful outcome.
00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:34.000
Absolutely.
00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:36.000
You gave me the perfect window for my new idea.
00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:36.720
I think I did.
00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:37.360
I think I did.
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.679
So I was gonna ask you, what about the use of medications?
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:49.600
You know, many, many, many years ago, medications were the last resort.
00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:52.399
And that is thankfully changing more often.
00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.799
And so tell me about that in addition to train, obviously, behavior modification.
00:10:56.960 --> 00:10:59.120
How do you feel about the use of medications?
00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:04.559
So it's funny that you say, you know, medication used to be kind of the last resort.
00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:26.879
I had been working with separation-related behaviors for 23 years now, and probably 22 years ago was when I realized and felt very strongly that medication in combination with behavior modification was truly a game changer for many, many dogs.
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:39.919
I think there's a lot of myths surrounding medication, and sometimes not just the myth, but sometimes some pretty significant restrictions and resistance to its use, right?
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:45.679
From from the human, from the human, we're human too, from the guardian side, from the pet parent side.
00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:53.600
You know, I I have heard so many times where a caretaker says, and you have, I'm sure, heard this many more times than I have.
00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:58.159
I don't want to dope my dog, I don't want them to be a zombie, you know.
00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:05.840
But we know that this nothing could be further from the truth with the kind of medications that are used for this issue.
00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:16.960
And I think that the medications used for separation-related issues are truly intended to enhance learning and retention.
00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:27.440
So we're not trying to sedate the dog, and I think it's so important that people hear that because we wouldn't we wouldn't get enhanced learning and retention if we were sedating the dog.
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:28.960
We would get neither, right?
00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:34.399
Um, so I've worked with a lot, a lot, a lot of veterinary professionals over the year.
00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:44.559
And as you mentioned, that common thread is that medication now should be considered potentially a first-line therapy uh as opposed to a last result.
00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:48.559
And just we have to remember these dogs are are suffering.
00:12:49.360 --> 00:13:01.120
And as they're as they're caretakers, we kind of have an obligation to relieve that suffering with the combination of training, behavior modification, and and and medication.
00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:01.840
Absolutely.
00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:04.960
And and I think a lot of that, like I don't want to sedate my dog.
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:15.279
We've talked about this before on the podcast, stems from, you know, we really only had ace promosine a long time ago or ametryptalin, which can be really, you know, quite sedating.
00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.879
So, you know, times have changed, thankfully.
00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:25.840
Um, but I love that you are a very big proponent of using the combination, because as you know, we are too.
00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:26.799
So we are too.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:28.559
And I'm so very grateful for that.
00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:30.320
Absolutely.
00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:42.240
Well, so during the course of treatment, one of the sort of hallmarks of what you guys uh will coach the clients on is that they they have to suspend those absences that aren't a part of your missions, right?
00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:46.159
So, what if someone absolutely cannot suspend those absences?
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:54.879
Um, the dog is either reactive and can't go to daycare, or like they can't accept, you know, a dog babysitter inside the home because they're also have stranger danger.
00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.399
And like us, you know, Amy and I, we can't work from home.
00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:00.639
So what do we do for those cases?
00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:01.600
Yeah.
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:16.240
Well, I I wanted to speak to those cases, but in doing so, I want to remind everybody that's listening that those are actually a much smaller pool of the population.
00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:27.919
I don't want to not give credence and validation to those individuals who have the reactive dog that has stranger danger, and they work 10 hours out of the home, et cetera, et cetera.
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:45.360
I'm being a little facetious, but what I mean is what we see, at least in here in my individual business, is that the majority of the clients are already managing their dogs alone time when they reach out to us.
00:14:45.759 --> 00:15:01.279
And if they're not, they are very surprised to hear that there are very creative and super interesting options out there that go well beyond just daycare and a dog sitter.
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.039
And I think we're only limited by our creativity.
00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:29.840
I love, I mean, I could go on and on and on about certain examples of creativity, and I just want to remind people that even those dogs that have strange or danger or reactivity, you know, we start out with a small circle, a very small circle, and we make that circle a little bigger and a little bigger so that that management can be put into place.
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:37.279
And one thing that I think that is so important about management itself, I always ponder about this.
00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:42.399
I mean, management is part of the laws of learning.
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:51.360
So, you know, sometimes people kind of say, Well, Melena, you know, you ask these people to not leave their dog alone during training.
00:15:51.519 --> 00:16:00.240
And and I have to remind people like, this is not a Melena arbitrarily chosen thing because she feels like she wants to be mean.
00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:04.000
We know that anxiety inhibits learning.
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:09.360
We know that the laws of learning require management of the scary stimulus.
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:21.600
In this case, that would be alone time, and so I think finding very, very creative ways to help these guardians is just so super important.
00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:25.360
I actually, and I'll I'll wrap on this for this question.
00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:41.120
We take a, as you know, we take a lot of data collection stuff, and I pulled one year's worth of data for the last 12 months, and we spoke to 688 prospective clients.
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:49.679
Now, they're asked on their initial questionnaire whether they can adjust their schedule so their dog will not be left alone during training.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:52.559
And they're given an option of yes, no, and maybe.
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.799
And 70% said yes.
00:16:55.039 --> 00:17:00.799
So, right out the gate, people are like, Yeah, I can't leave my dog alone.
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:05.920
He's getting the neighbors upset or he's destroying my house, or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:11.759
So that's a pretty good, you know, interesting number to realize as a data point.
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:16.400
And we had some maybes and we had a a handful of no's as well.
00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:22.880
And I think that many of those was a we went into a process of counseling, like, well, what do we do?
00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:24.240
Let's get creative together.
00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:25.519
Mm-hmm.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.480
And and those are cases too where medication is gonna play a bigger role, too, right?
00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:32.000
Very much so.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.480
So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.079
I I love that, you know, individualizing your plan, right?
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:46.079
You you mentioned that a few different times, and in this of all of the all of the behavior therapy plans out there are individualized in in our hands, right?
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.240
There everybody is a study of one.
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:48.880
Of course.
00:17:49.440 --> 00:18:07.119
But this is one of the the frameworks that is the most individualized because you are collecting so much data and looking at every day of that pet and how they are making their improvements, and that is really informing your plan each step of the way.
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.359
And and that is just amazing to me.
00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:18.960
And you know, that brings us to another topic because there are lots of myths out there about why dogs suffer from we'll just say separation anxiety, right?
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:20.880
We'll we'll just that's gonna be our term.
00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:21.680
That's what we're gonna use.
00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:25.119
And and that may not be accurate, but that's what we're gonna use for today.
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:28.559
And so for separation anxiety, you know, why did they get it?
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.000
And how do you treat it?
00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:38.160
And aren't they just gonna grow out of it or leave them alone as you didn't leave them alone enough, or you should leave them alone more so that they can just get over it.
00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:45.359
Why don't you just get a dummy and stuff it and put it on the couch and then you know somebody's home and they should never be upset about it?
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:51.759
And I have had had clients that have experimented with the dummy, you know, like that would be a great solution if it worked.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:53.839
If it worked, I would be throwing a dummy.
00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:58.160
Put your shirt on it so it smells like you, get a dummy, put them on the couch, that's solved the problem.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.200
You don't have to spend any money or do anything else in the rest of your life.
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:05.920
So tell me your thoughts and your experience about these things.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.640
Well, first of all, I just have to start with the dummy because it cracks me up.
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:15.920
I think about the fact that your whole house smells like you.
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:21.119
So, like putting your shirt on a dummy makes zero sense.
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:23.920
Zero, zero sense.
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:27.920
Uh, but anyway, there are definitely a lot of myths out there.
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:30.559
And you've mentioned several.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:38.400
Um I think we have to remember that because of the welfare and well-being of these dogs is really at stake.
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:50.480
The idea of just letting them quote, cry it out, or just leaving them until they get over it, that's really concerning to me.
00:19:51.599 --> 00:20:02.000
Being in a state of continued stress can lead to, as you have seen, experienced, and know, both those physiological and psychological issues, right?
00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:04.559
And and it can exacerbate on either end.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:10.559
And boy, do I ever understand that people are hoping for a quick fix to this problem.
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:14.240
And I think that's where a lot of these myths were born, right?
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:27.519
But currently there isn't a single quick fix that exists from uh just uh a couple of days of leaving them alone to cry it out type of perspective.
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:32.480
Um, and and I would ask you, I assume that you would agree, but I could be wrong.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:49.200
Like even from a medication standpoint, so far we don't have a single medication that will quote fix some separation anxiety because you know there's a lot that can help, but but we don't have a we don't have a quick fix, we don't have a magic pill.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:21:03.759
And the good news though, even though maybe that's hard to hear about not being able to use some of these quick fixes, I think it should be hopefully relieving to hear that there is a way to address separation anxiety.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:06.960
It's generally multimodal, right?
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:18.960
We've got medication, we've got behavior modification, we've got management, and there's a lot of skilled professionals out there to guide people through the process so that people are not alone as they go through it.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:20.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:25.519
One of the common ones I hear from clients is like, oh, if I just get another dog, are they gonna be okay?
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:31.119
And I had a client, no joke, she heard that myth and she got another dog.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.319
And now, lo and behold, they both have separation anxiety.
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:36.720
So they're both my patients.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:42.400
Well, so what I always dread is they get another dog and now they have interdog aggression.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:43.279
Oh gosh.
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:45.759
I'm like, oh, but now the dogs are trying to kill each other.
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:46.799
So that's great.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.359
That's gonna help everybody's stress level, right?
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:51.599
Oh my gosh, it's endless.
00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:52.000
I know.
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:59.759
And you know, we just have to put the message out there that like the only reason for getting a second or an additional, I should say, dog is because.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:07.920
Because you and your family and your beloved current dog is excited to have a new family member, right?
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:09.920
Not to fix another dog.
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:10.400
Never.
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:11.039
Yeah.
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:12.640
Totally, totally.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:16.160
Although, you know, we we talk about there's no quick fixes, right?
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:21.359
Like a fun case that I had back in my residency was a cute little mini schnauzer.
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.000
So of course I remember it very fondly.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:28.720
Um and this dog was very, very medication resistant.
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:38.319
Like no amount and no doses of probably four or five different event drugs combined together actually alleviated the dog's panic.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.640
And no joke, the owner, and she didn't do this to fix the separation anxiety.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:43.839
This was not her intent.
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:45.039
She got a cat.
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:52.720
And no kidding, the cat and the mini schnauzer started snuggling on the couch, and the dog could be left home alone.
00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:57.200
Like I would have never, ever in a million years ago, a mini schnauzer and a cat.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:58.880
But like, come on, right?
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:01.519
Like we are not recommending this at all.
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.279
Listen to our knot.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:06.400
Yeah.
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:08.799
But I was like, oh, you've got to be kidding me.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:09.920
Oh my goodness.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.319
So it was a happy ending.
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.200
Well, thank you so much for all the great discussion thus far.
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.720
We're gonna take a quick break with a word from our sponsors.
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.279
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00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:40.000
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00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:48.640
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00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:57.759
Okay, guys, let's get back down to business.
00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:01.680
Um, why don't we start with getting to know Melena a little bit more, shall we?
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:06.480
What brought you into the training world and why specifically separation anxiety?
00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:10.880
Well, you know, as she giggles.
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.440
I giggle because I'm trying not to cry, kind of moment, you know, I'm saying.
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:27.200
Uh as is so common for dog professionals, be they trainers, behavior consultants, vets, veterinary behaviorists, a dog got me into the business, right?
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.480
My own personal private scenario.
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:34.000
This was a very, very, very long time ago.
00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:41.599
Um, my previous background, I um worked in data collection and statistics and marketing and stuff like that.
00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:46.400
Hence the reason I'm such a geek with all the data that we collect about separation anxiety.
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:48.319
You star, you're a nerd, just like we are.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:25:01.279
But this dog, and that and I'm not gonna cry because we don't need crying today, made me realize that I was doing a lot of stuff wrong.
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:08.640
And I took a sabbatical from work and I attended Gene Donaldson's The Academy for Dog Trainers.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:32.079
And by the time I finished that education, you know, I've never experienced a moment like that from an educational experience that was truly transformational, not just in the way that I worked with animals, meaning dogs, cats, etc., but in the way that I interacted with human beings.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:40.160
Understanding reinforcement laws and you know that sort of stuff, I it just was fascinating to me.
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:49.839
So I started practicing in 2001, and one of my very, very first cases was a separation anxiety case.
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:55.119
And that case was really pivotal for me.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.759
This was back in the day when you actually picked up the phone.
00:25:57.839 --> 00:25:59.279
My phone rang and I actually picked it up.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.519
You went down the hallway to where the phone was to die.
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:04.880
Picked up the phone.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:12.559
You'd sat on your phone bench table, tuck some notes in your pencil, and looked at two.
00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:20.400
Uh so I picked up the phone and she was, you know, saying that her dog could not be left alone, and she was crying.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:31.519
And I said, gosh, I'm a I'm a really green trainer, and I know a little bit about the principles of resolving this issue, but I am I'm not the right person for you.
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:33.599
I'd like to give you some referrals.
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:46.559
And she started bawling and said, through her tears, said, if you're gonna give me some names of other trainers, can you at least make sure that they will work with separation anxiety?
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:53.039
Because you are the seventh person that I've spoken to that said no to me to help.
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:54.319
Oh man.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:58.319
And my heart just went into my throat.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:00.240
I just thought a couple things.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:05.359
Number one, oh, how horrible for her was like my first initial thought.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:17.599
And then my second thought was what a devoted and wonderful guardian that she's like, I'm just gonna keep calling until I find someone that's gonna help me.
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:23.599
Long story short, I knew that the two or three names that I were I was gonna give her were would also say no.
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:25.920
Nobody was taking separation anxiety back then.
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:28.640
It was kind of taboo, yucky, yucky, yucky.
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:35.599
And I said, Listen, I'll start working with you on some basic principles, and we'll get UC Davis involved.
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:39.119
This was local in the Bay Area here, and all that stuff.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:43.680
And the dog's name was Guinness, and I'll just never forget him.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:49.519
And we were very lucky that his his anxiety was resolved fairly quickly.
00:27:49.759 --> 00:28:07.920
But I want to mention, I cannot take credit for that because retrospectively, a few months later, looking back at my experience with Guinness, was he really was a rags to riches dog and just needed a little transition time, and he would have been fine without all of my meddling.
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:10.319
I love it.
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:16.240
But he gave me the love and passion for this issue, and I I am forever grateful for that.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:18.480
You should be drinking a Guinness today.
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:24.319
I'll drink one for you when I go to Ireland.
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:26.000
I love that.
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:27.680
Perfect.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:28.960
Oh my goodness.
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:32.880
So let's take a moment to kind of discuss the difference, right?
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.440
There are millions and millions of trainers out there.
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:40.319
They have lots of different philosophies, which is not the topic of this podcast.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:46.160
But there are also really devoted high-level trainers that specialize in different things, right?
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.079
Agility in sports and obedience and what have you.
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:58.240
So, what is the difference between all of those trainers and what a certified separation anxiety trainer does?
00:28:58.960 --> 00:28:59.599
Yeah.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:11.519
I think it's really important to recognize the I never like to use the word severity, but it's the only word that's coming to my mind at the moment.
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:14.480
So the severity of this behavior issue.
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:21.359
And when I use the word severity, I mean from a well-being and welfare aspect for the dog.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:26.319
I also mean for quality of life for the caretaker.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:37.279
I mean, there's so many pieces of this behavior issue that really rank it up there with, ooh, it's complex and there are many nuances to it.
00:29:37.599 --> 00:30:10.160
And while I know a host of really, really great obedience trainers and general behavior trainers, I think that the level of detail nuance and for lack of better words, severity of the issue is something that takes a devoted, skilled individual to really understand what they are seeing, when they are seeing it, and how to adjust criteria based on those particular pieces of the puzzle.
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:35.599
You know, the amount of body language and behavior that we record, I don't know how much of our spreadsheets you are seeing, but I know when looking at that particular dog, when his eyes blink for the third time, it's time to call the people back because the fourth time is gonna lead into a whine, which will lead into a bark, which will lead into a howl, which will lead into right.
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:43.680
And so, I mean, we know so much little bits of detail about each and every dog in front of us.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:49.279
And of course, we're total nerds when it comes to data collection, and we love to work with vets and BVs.
00:30:49.519 --> 00:31:00.799
So I think I think we we have to give big kudos to behavior professionals that work with a variety of different cases.
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:04.319
And I think it takes a special person to know how to do it all.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:14.400
And I just would urge people to think about because this kind of behavior is so special, it should be a specialized individual that works with it.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:16.720
Yeah, and it takes a lot of time and effort.
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:17.920
It takes a lot of time.
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.759
There's a lot of follow-up, a lot of detail, like you said, that goes into it.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:32.480
And I know a lot of my trainers don't like working with separation anxiety because and so you know, I love that everyone has their niche that they want to kind of fill, and this is fabulous.
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:44.559
So now, Melena, do you think there are risk factors for development of separation anxiety, like specific breeds or experiences that correlate to a higher chance of separation anxiety?
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:55.200
And this is why I picked my cocktail, because in our practice, if we are seeing a separation anxiety dog, all the staff go, let me guess it's a beagle.
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:56.400
It's a beagle.
00:31:57.759 --> 00:31:59.279
So is that true?
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:00.960
Do I have something behind this?
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:03.920
So funny, so so funny.
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:07.680
Well, I have two sort of funny pieces to the answer to this question.
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:20.720
And the first is regarding beagles, and that just kills me because not only have I worked with a lot of beagles, I have a colleague, Catherine Gabriel, who is just incredible.
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:25.119
And she had a beagle with separation-related behavior problem.
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:34.000
And when she started working with me, she was like, Well, that dog's a beagle, and this dog's a beagle, and that dog's a beagle, and you have all these beagle pictures.
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:42.240
And and I, and so I told her, which I'll talk to you about in a minute, about the risk factors, et cetera, or or potential breed specific.
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:50.319
And she said, Yeah, but nobody's done a really concerted research study just on beagles.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:54.559
So I think when that's gets done, you might be singing a different tune.
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:55.839
And I said, Well, fair enough.
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:56.319
Okay.
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:16.720
But I think the funny story that I have to tell about this question, well, first of all, I want to dispel the myth here when we're talking about risk factors, that we are somehow, as the individual caretaker, creating by you know, letting the dog sleep on the bed with us or something of that nature.
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:19.200
That has been refuted for so long.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:26.240
We know a lot about what doesn't cause separation anxiety, like spoiling the dog and that kind of stuff.
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:29.839
We know very little about what does.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:45.680
We have a few, a few research studies that are a little more recent that are showing a genetic component, which is fascinating, and hopefully that influences our more targeted medications in the future.
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:49.839
But I just want to dispel that myth because this is a good question to do so.
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:57.519
So here's the funny and kind of embarrassing story since I just told you that I was working as a statistician and marketing stuff.
00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:07.359
When I first started working with separation anxiety, there wasn't Zoom and there wasn't all this stuff, none of this stuff.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:08.800
None of this stuff, right?
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:12.079
So my clients were all local.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:23.119
And during a presentation about 20 years ago, someone asked me this question and said, you know, are there specific breeds that are more prone to separation anxiety?
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:31.519
And I thought about the question and said, you know, I don't think there's any research about the topic, and I haven't heard anything specific.
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:41.760
But gosh, you know, my caseload of separation anxiety afflicted dogs is made up of a whole lot of pit bulls.
00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:49.519
And so, of course, there everyone, you know, scratched their head like, oh, maybe pit bulls, you know, super sensitive, whatever, I don't know.
00:34:49.760 --> 00:35:00.320
And then fast forward to about 2009 when I started working entirely remotely because we had things like FaceTime and all the rest, and Skype and so forth.
00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:03.280
And I started taking clients all over the world.
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:12.480
Well, golly gee, I started to see so many breeds represented in my caseload.
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:21.920
And it kind of dawned on me that the reason I had only been seeing pitbulls was that I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area, and that's the most popular breed of dog in this area.
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:30.480
So I had to laugh at myself, like talk about a bad data collection processing moment, but you know, there's some bias there.
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:32.559
Exactly.
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:40.320
So we do the same thing, like people say, you know, which dogs you see the most often and which dogs are you see, so many aggressive dogs, you know, whatever.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.559
And it doesn't matter what the behavior condition is.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.360
It is really the the town that you're in, right?
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:48.639
Rottweilers and pit bulls when I was in Philadelphia.
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:55.440
Now that I'm in Virginia, I see a lot of hounds because maybe there are a lot of hunters and maybe they don't want that dog.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:00.880
That dog falls out of you know favor because they're not really good at their job and and they end up in the shelter.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:04.880
And so we have different populations in different areas for various reasons.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:06.559
That's exactly right.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:07.840
That's exactly right.
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:12.000
So I would say there's too many factors involved.
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:12.320
Yeah.
00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:17.119
And particularly when that we don't know exactly what causes separation anxiety.
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:24.800
If we don't know what causes it, we we certainly can't start to make any estimations about this breed or that other breed.
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:25.679
Absolutely.
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:27.840
Well, dang, it's not all beagles.
00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:30.559
Not all beagles, is the end of the story.
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:31.920
Not all beagles.
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.599
So let's talk about some of those interesting cases.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.960
You just said you've been seeing cases for 20 years.
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:45.599
You've racked up a whole lot of stuff that is strange and interesting.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:50.480
So, what is the most difficult or interesting separation anxiety case that you've ever had?
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:51.760
And kind of describe why.
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:53.280
Tell tell us a little bit about that.
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:56.400
Yes, open up the storybook and learn.
00:36:57.039 --> 00:37:10.000
So the questions like this are sort of hard because you start, and this must happen to you both as well, where you're like, well, there was that one that no, but you know, this other one that was so, and this one was, you know, right?
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:28.239
So but I really want to lean into the fact that they're all, yes, incredibly interesting because each one is so unique, and they're all a little bit difficult by nature of this behavior.
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:28.800
Okay.
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:40.559
It's a slow process, it takes a lot of adjustment, it takes a lot of working with vets and veterinary behaviorists and consulting back and forth.
00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:42.079
It takes a whole village.
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.800
So I thought about what makes a case super interesting.
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:56.320
And I think the most interesting aspects are the various pre-departure cues and post-departure cues that people have.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.440
And there's some good news here.
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:07.280
You know, people are so worried about pre-departure cues, and if and we call them PDQs, and you know, I we always say, don't fear the PDQ.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:17.199
Because if you're teaching a dog that alone time is safe, then the things that predict alone time are also safe, right?
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:18.000
Yeah, yeah.
00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:23.760
But it's so funny that you know, people have their habits when they go to leave the house.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:28.159
And we get to know their habits pretty intimately.
00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:47.119
You know, we and it's just funny looking at some of the things like the the client that had to remove the pillows off of the couch because she felt that the pillows were expensive and her dog had never destroyed an item ever.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:56.719
But somehow she had to before walking out the door, and she had like 10 decorative pillows on the couch, and she had to go put them in the closet.
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:07.760
And uh, I had a lovely client that had several cats and was very nervous about letting the cats and the dog be alone together.
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:13.599
They were fine together when she was there, or she felt fine when when they were when they were home.
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:28.800
And oh my gosh, the process of literally hurting cats to get them in a separate area and putting up all of the, you know, and here's your rope thingy majigger and your jute climbing thing, and your oh my god.
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.840
And you know, you're like, how are we ever gonna get out the door?
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:36.639
Right, you know, but three-hour ritual.
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:49.920
But fortunately, since we don't introduce pre-departure cues until we've gained at least a little bit of safe alone time, it doesn't, it doesn't take forever.
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:56.639
But it's fun, it's really fun and interesting looking at all the uniqueness in every single person's routine.
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:04.239
Yeah, I remember my mom's dog after I went off to college, her little Bishan had some mild to moderate separation anxiety.
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:10.000
And the trigger for Kenzie was my mom would spray her hair with AquaNet.
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:13.039
Like that's what set the dog off.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:14.880
It's like, uh-oh, mom's leaving.
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:16.800
She didn't do hairspray otherwise.
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:17.360
Yeah.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:20.960
So and once they left the 80s, the dog was dry.
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:24.559
No, I think my mom still uses AquaNet.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:26.320
So funny.
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:39.440
I had a I have to tell you, that just so reminds me we had a client that that was convinced that when she put on her lipstick in that, like in the vestibule mirror area, that that was the final trigger for her dog.
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:49.039
And you know, the idea of let's put on your lipstick 30-time application when it was bright red and she would look like an absolute clown, you know.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:54.800
Fortunately, by the time we got to the lipstick stage, the dog was like, whatever, you can do anything on it.
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:57.519
Who cares about the lipstick anymore?
00:40:58.239 --> 00:40:59.119
Good thing.
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:00.239
All right, Melena.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:08.719
Well, if you had to pick one thing, we've talked about a lot of amazing things, but one thing that you want the hive mind to take away from today's episode, what would it be?
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:20.400
I think the main thing that I want people to understand, recognize, and feel hopeful about is that they are not alone.
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:22.480
They're not alone in this journey.
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:28.719
There's all sorts of incredible behavior consultants, incredible vets and veterinary behaviorists like Dr.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:29.599
Lern and Dr.
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:30.400
Pike.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:34.719
There are so many people that are out there to help.
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:40.880
There are even resources that are no cost or low cost to provide information.
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:42.800
You are not alone.
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:48.639
And this behavior is one that you should have tremendous hope about.
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:59.039
But I want anybody and everybody to think about it, not in terms of you know, can I go put my dancing shoes on and go out by the next weekend?
00:41:59.440 --> 00:41:59.840
Right?
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:07.280
I want people to think in terms of months, not weeks, but also not think in terms of years.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.360
We're talking typically months.
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:12.800
So there is such hope for this behavior.
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:19.280
And just know that feeling of being alone doesn't have to be there because there's so many people there to support.
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:20.000
I love that.
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:20.880
That's wonderful.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:22.320
I love that sentiment.
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:27.039
So this brings us to another fun part of the podcast.
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:39.920
We end every show with our buzzkill segment, in which we allow our guest, that's you, to bring up some special story, controversy, weirdest thing a client or patient ever did or said.
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:41.760
Now we did already talk about some of those.
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:45.760
So hopefully you can reach deep and get some get some other cool stuff in there.
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:48.559
And that way the hive mind can vote.
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:52.079
Is this buzzworthy or a buzzkill?
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:59.119
Well, I was about to say, well, this is actually but and then I'm but I'm not gonna vote, I'm not gonna sway.
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:00.880
Don't spoil the vote, don't we?
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:04.400
I don't want to sway the vote, particularly right now, right?
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:17.119
But uh I I wanna tell you one of my favorite stories or scenarios was from now eight or nine years ago at most.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:27.280
This wonderful, wonderful individual was experiencing separation anxiety with one of her dogs.
00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:29.920
It it just harkens to the time.
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:34.320
So we've been teaching the CSAT program for 10 years.
00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:38.960
This is our 10-year anniversary this year, and this was about eight years ago.
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:47.199
So 90 gajillion people, when they had separation related issues in their home, just went on Dr.
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:49.679
Google and tried all the crazy things.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.639
And so did this lovely, lovely person.
00:43:53.039 --> 00:44:18.159
And somehow or another, she stumbled upon this advice that she Should find the heaviest, most durable item as large as possible that her dog would have to sort of maneuver and drill holes in it and then put like food in the in the holes.
00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:20.639
And she was like, I'll try anything.
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:37.840
So she went out and hunted around and found the biggest possible thickest, longest wood log and brought it into her home and drilled holes in it and stuffed it with food, convinced that Dr.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:40.079
Google was telling her the right thing to do.
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:43.039
Well, I'm sure you understand that that did not work.
00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:59.840
But what was so interesting, and the reason I wanted to mention this case is that after that she was so frustrated and she stumbled across my book and she read in the back that I had been a graduate of the Academy for Dog Trainers, and she's like, I want to learn how to do this.
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:10.000
And so she applied and became a dog trainer through the Academy for Dog Trainers, and then a few years later, she applied to our program and became a CSAT.
00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:14.079
And now she is one of her name is Jane Wolf.
00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:19.760
And she is one of the most amazing practitioners for this behavior issue.
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.719
And I just love that it all started out with a wooden log.
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:25.039
Oh my gosh.
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:28.960
I was waiting for a critter that was gonna come out of the log.
00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:31.920
It's like, and then her house is full of termites.
00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:33.280
Oh, there was a snake.
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:35.679
And I was like, oh no, this is bad.
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:36.960
Just bring it in the log.
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:42.559
Oh god, I could I might I might pass out if I started talking about those kind of critters in my house.
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:44.480
It's gonna be a great story.
00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:46.079
And it was a great story.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:50.239
It just didn't take the scary turn that I that your brain did.
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:52.800
I was like, oh, this is a bad part.
00:45:53.039 --> 00:45:53.519
Really bad part.
00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:54.719
Oh my goodness.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:46:01.199
Oh, here at the Behavior Buzz, we know you are all busy bees who live and die by the science like we do.
00:46:01.280 --> 00:46:04.079
So we'll put all the references from today's show on the website.
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:07.599
So buzz on over to the Honeypot page to find those.
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:20.800
And we just want to say a big thank you to our guest today, Melena DeMartini, and a happy 10-year anniversary to her program, world acclaimed speaker and author and program developer.
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:27.199
This was a fascinating discussion about separation-related behaviors, and we all know how important this problem is.
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:38.320
I also want to thank the sponsor for today's Buzz episode, which is Melina Di Martini, creator of Mission Possible.
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:41.280
Aw, thank you.
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:42.719
That's so kind.
00:46:42.800 --> 00:47:00.800
And uh I hope people, you know, I briefly mentioned right before that you know, there are low cost and no cost resources, and I and I hope that people are gonna go to your references in the honeypot and see if nothing else, see the link there for my website.
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:08.239
And there are I can't, I don't know how many, I've lost count, so many blogs, all free, like lots of content, all free.
00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:14.960
And then Mission Possible, which is the online self-paced course for guardians, is also available.
00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:27.840
And we will happily provide anybody that gives us the discount code DR2, DR2, as in Dr.
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:29.440
Two, as in the Doctor Two Amy.
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:43.599
As in the two AMEs, the two doctors, DR2, uh, will get you a discount off of Mission Possible so that it is not the$199 lifetime fee.
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:46.239
It will only be$99 for you.
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:48.719
Oh, I feel like we're on Oprah.
00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:52.480
We are you get a discount, you get a discount, and you get a discount.
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:55.679
That's wonderful.
00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.119
Thanks for doing that, Melena.
00:47:57.599 --> 00:47:58.400
You're so welcome.
00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:00.960
Thank you both for having me, actually.
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:01.519
This was fun.
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:02.480
Of course.
00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:04.159
Yeah, we love having you.
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:11.360
Thank you to our premium sponsor, PRN PharmaCal, the makers of Reconcile.
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:18.480
Reconcile is an FDA-approved drug for the treatment of canine separation anxiety in conjunction with the behavior modification plan.
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:29.039
PRN PharmaCal is committed to meeting the evolving needs of modern veterinary medicine and dedicated to developing products to strengthen the bond between pets and their people.
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:44.159
Thank you to our amazing sponsor, Milena DiMartini Incorporated, founder of the Separation Anxiety Certification Program for Dog Professionals and creator of the Mission Possible online course for guardians.
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:52.079
Milena and her team of certified separation anxiety trainers work remotely with clients whose dogs are suffering from separation anxiety.
00:48:52.320 --> 00:49:01.119
Whether you are a dog owner or a dog professional, find the perfect resources to start your separation anxiety journey at MilenaDMartini.com.
00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:13.280
So, and an even bigger thank you to our hive mind, because without listeners like you, we would have nothing to buzz on about.
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:18.480
So grab a drink or a mock tail and join us next time for cocktails and conversations.
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:21.119
Follow us on all our socials.
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:29.840
Facebook at Behavior Buzz, Instagram at BehaviorBuzz, and our website, behaviorbuzz.com.
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:33.280
Be positive, be informed.
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:34.719
Now Buzz.
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:40.079
Okay, if you don't like it, that's fine.
00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:46.480
He's like, leave it to the professional.
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:50.079
He's like, that was terrible, and your ears are awful.
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:52.559
And that's why you remember even recording.
00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:58.639
All right, I'm gonna stop recording.
