Yuan Gao - Pulead

WEBVTT
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When I was the FMC, I try to work with some universities.
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They'll tell you, oh, our overhat, 60%.
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You pay us$100,000.
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Only$40,000 goes to that professor.
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How much the professor can do is$40,000?
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Maybe one postdoc or something.
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And every university has the industry liaison office.
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Always think their technology yet to be discovered will be next to the Gatorade.
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I always tell you the Gatorade story of University of Florida.
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Anything that you develop belongs to the university.
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When I went back to China, work at Pulit, I had a lot of universal collaboration.
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They were basically, you don't need to pay me anything, and you own all the IP.
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And I'm Kevin Eberman.
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Welcome to Battery Potential.
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Kevin?
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Vincent!
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Who do we have today?
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Well, we'd like to welcome Jan Gao and a huge thanks for joining us today in the podcast, Jan.
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Your career offers an incredible look into the evolution of lithium ion batteries and battery materials and taking you from the lab bench all the way to the CEO's desk, which is pretty cool.
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You started out in the mid-90s as a postdoc in Jeff Don's lab, collaborating closely with the early lithium-ion pioneer Molly Energy, who we've talked about on this podcast before, and Jeff was a guest before.
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And uh you made major breakthroughs in spinel cathodes, and we'll get into that.
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From there, you spent over 14 years at FMC, uh, and you you didn't stay in the lab, you seamlessly transitioned into global business leadership and eventually served as president and CEO of PoolEd, one of China's top cathode manufacturers.
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And today you sit on the board of several battery material companies in North America.
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It's really an honor to have someone who's impacted the global battery supply chain in every possible angle.
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Again, welcome you on.
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We're really looking forward to this conversation.
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Well, thank you so much.
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It's my honor, and thank you for having me here.
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Uh, again, as you said, it's uh it's been uh uh a long journey and uh really uh my honor to sit here with you guys.
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Well, I want to uh you know that we often do this, it's kind of starting at the beginning.
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A lot of what we care about is kind of motivations and what took you from here to there.
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But at the very beginning, at some point, like back in high school or university days, how did you get interested in studying batteries in the first place?
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How did you decide this direction I want to go?
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And it's oh by accident, I have to confess.
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It's uh I wasn't interested in batteries.
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I was always interested in uh back in my high school days, I was always interested in math and the physics.
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I uh always wanted to study the uh how the universe or how things work.
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So that's why I chose physics as my uh discipline for study.
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So I did my undergrad in China and I went to University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.
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I do my uh uh graduate work.
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My uh my PhD thesis was not on battery at all, it was on semiconductor materials, material size, of course, it's related.
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And uh we did a lot of photoemission studies at Brookhaven National Lab with Singletron.
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So the reason I'm giving you a little bit of background that because it's needed to explain how I got into Lithium battery space.
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Right.
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So my uh thesis advisor, he always told me, he said, uh Yuan, look, you can always learn experimental skills from me or in the lab or after you graduate, you go to work.
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But it's very once you graduate, it's very hard to learn real hard physics theory.
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So I encourage you to take those courses.
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So uh unlike other students in the labs, of course, I spend a lot of time fixing pumps, uh detecting vacuum leaks, all these things, of course.
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But I I took as many theory courses as possible, like quantum field theory, because I'm always interested in uh the whole physics thing, how things work.
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So eventually those things come in handy when I started uh my work in the battery field.
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So uh fast forward to April 1990.
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That's my first time to meet with Jeff Dunn.
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So my uh little background, uh both my thesis advisor, Tom TJ, and Jeff Down studied physics under the same supervisor called Rudy Hering.
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So in the 90s, Jeff was leaving Maori Energy, uh, about to uh start as a professor in Summer Fraser University.
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So he came to his uh old body, uh Tom, who was my C's advisor.
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So we were in uh Brookhaven National Lab on Long Island, and so we're doing a lot of photoemission study on semiconductor wafers.
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So he wanted to study, he wanted to learn photoemission.
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So Tom basically said, hey, you learn the rope strong you want.
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He's uh my student.
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Uh so we're doing a lot of uh night shifts.
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So that's how uh I met with uh Jeff.
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Night shifts with Jeff doing photoluminescence or thing?
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Right, uh photoemission.
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So for some reason, Jeff wanted to acquire this uh technique, but it was uh bread and butter for us.
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In the semi-in connector labs, we're doing it like 24 hours around the clock.
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So as a student, Tom did the uh day shift, I did uh student did most of the night shift.
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So Jeff would be sitting with me uh overnight.
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Uh as you wait for the data to come in.
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You sit there wait for a long time.
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Yeah.
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2 a.m., 3 a.m.
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very quiet.
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So you know Jeff is not a quiet person.
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He cannot stay there quietly.
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So he would say, Yuan, let me teach you, let me show you how battery works.
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I was like, uh, who cares?
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Why should I care about battery?
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I care about my PhD thesis, I care about uh the data quality of the spectrum I'm collecting, but he he he would insist, let me show you.
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This is very neat, Yuan.
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This is very neat.
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Yeah.
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Uh this is uh new.
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Yeah.
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Because I don't think at that time uh in 1990, uh Lucian concept or they came out, it was solely a lithium battery.
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So let me show you how a lithium battery works.
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Um so eventually I'll say, okay, there's nothing else to do.
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Uh we'll listen to your story.
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So over time, so we did this kind of thing.
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So every six months we will work together.
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Oh, we even published a paper together.
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Oh, first of all, we always have to make our vacuum chambers super clean because we have a wafer.
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So he had to bring in dirty black powders.
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I didn't I didn't care.
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Either graphite or pure lithium nickel oxide.
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He was very interested in pure.
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At that time, there's no high nickel NMC.
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And again, we submitted a paper uh to physics review letters.
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They said, hey, this is neat physics using, we didn't say this is battery material, uh, it's going to be very useful, energy density, capacity, that sort of thing.
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So I got to know him very well.
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So uh fast forward to 93.
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I was about to finish my PhD, but I didn't want to leave Vancouver because at that time, for my discipline, the only employment opportunity was like a bell up in New Jersey.
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Right.
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Um, I didn't want to leave Vancouver because uh my wife still required a couple more years to finish her PhD.
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Jeff and I were already friends.
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After uh three years of working together, published many papers, a physical paper, nothing about uh battery.
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So one day I expressed my frustration.
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Uh he said, hey, forget about going to New Jersey.
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Come work for me as a post op.
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He said, uh, come work for me because uh I just told you there's a such thing called Lucian Battery.
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By 93, already the concept of Lucian battery.
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The Lucian battery is new, it has huge potential, it's open field.
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You basically can pick whatever topic you want.
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You can do whatever, it's just so interesting.
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I thought, yeah, maybe I will do a two-year postdoc, wait until my wife gets her PhD, and then I will move back to the semicolon space.
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So I so I agreed.
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So I went to work for him.
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So I visited his lab.
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So Jeff had only been a prof, uh he became a prof in 1990, I think, at uh Simon Fraser.
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So he had only been a prof for a few years.
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So were you his first postdoc?
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No, no, I joined him uh right after New Year 1994.
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Another one before me called uh actually I worked with him even Jen Rummers.
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Jen Rumers.
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So Jen Rummers, when I started my postdoc, Jen Rummers already working at Mali Energy.
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He already uh he already done his uh postdoc.
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So and again, Jen and I became very close too.
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We we worked together quite a bit during my postdoc ship.
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After even after I uh started my uh industrial job in FMC, I went back and visited uh his uh home and we hiked in uh uh in the mountains together.
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Um so so anyway, I started uh as a postdoc, and then at that time, early '94, uh the big challenge was to making spin-out, manganese spin-out work.
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So that was interested by Molli Energy.
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Molly Energy really, really want to commercialize spin-out battery because at that time the general thinking, going back that's 32 years ago, more almost 33, um, people thought was uh LCO, lithium carbon, gonna be taking over.
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It's nothing to be uh worked on.
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Yeah, let's work on some new material.
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So basically in the castle space, we spend a lot of time on uh uh magnet spinel and pure lithium nickel oxide.
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Talking people are saying, oh, lithium-1, nickel one, lithium.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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We're moving towards high nickel uh 10 years ago, uh as if it's something new.
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As remember, the industry started from the other end, pure.
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Nothing is higher nickel than pure lithium nickel oxide.
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So that time, a lot of effort on pure lithium nickel oxide, uh, which is very interesting material.
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I read a lot of uh papers from a very, very good professor, uh a French professor, uh Delmas.
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Claude Delmas, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Uh he published, I learned a lot from his publication because he studied the magnetics.
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You you study the cure temperature, we're we're looking, well, again, physicists, right?
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You look at the low temperature behavior.
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People don't study that kind of a fundamental uh thing anymore.
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So when I started, remember I came from a semiconductor uh physics background, so I started uh on understanding the fundamental physics standpoint.
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I create a lot of uh series, uh calculations compared to my experimental, trying to see why it fades from a fundamental physics standpoint.
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Uh at that time, I think in 1994, 1995, uh Kleo Amin, he was still at the Japan storage battery.
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He published a paper on nickel doped spin out showing higher voltage.
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So instantly I was studying why the voltage is higher once you throw some nickel.
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So again, I explained it with the photoemission, studying the valence band, some calculation, everything.
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I can tell you, my postdoc work at JeffLav still sort of my transition from academia to application industry.
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But in retrospect, I think it's good because it kind of trained me to look at the any material problem from a fundamental perspective.
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Because sometimes you need, in order to solve the problem, you need to understand the fundamentals.
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But then, because part of our funding came from Mali Energy, so we had a bi-weekly meeting with Mali Energy, meeting with like Jen Remers, I mentioned, uh former postdoc of Jeff, and also their RD director, uh.
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I don't even know him.
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I visited Maur Energy uh from time to time.
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Give me first taste of industry.
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You know, Jeff has a lot of industry background.
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So that was my first taste of industry.
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Really a good transition for me.
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Yeah right.
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And also, you know, you approach it from the solid state uh perspective, so you could really sort of understand the crystal structures, the lattices.
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And you know, battery is interesting because all the details of the structures at the atomic level really make a difference in the battery performance, right?
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Yep.
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So it's it's kind of a unique field to be to be in uh when that's your interest.
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Oh, right.
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To me, the crystal field, oh group series, no big deal, right?
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Because I came from sort of a hard physics.
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Yeah, you know that was a good thing.
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All these things.
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Yeah, XRD to me was uh very easy uh rudimentary tool, right?
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So so but I learned, of course, how to cast electrodes, how to assemble cells, all these things.
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But anyway, in 95, so I went to attend my first electrochemical society meeting in Chicago.
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Already after one year, more than a year, opposed I already published uh something together with Jeff, of course, explaining some fundamentals of spin-out.
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So I was already invited to give a talk.
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I give a talk on spin-out, managing spin out.
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The room was packed.
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ECS meeting always attended by thousands of people, and eco, you know, university we're uh Jeff, even though it's uh uh by comparison very well-funded professor, but compared to industry, we're very poor.
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So we're uh three people.
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We we share one room, one hotel room.
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Jeff myself, another student of his, and the hotel was like, I don't even remember the name hotel, probably not very good hotel.
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Like a 20-minute walk from the conference venue.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So now I give a talk on spin-out with a room full of people, and right after my talk, a group of people chased me down from FMC, uh, a guy, a a business manager from FMC.
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Okay.
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It was like uh Dr.
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Gao.
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I came, I flew in this morning from Charlotte, North Carolina, to listen to your talk.
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I'm very busy.
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I need to fly back to Charlotte for another meeting.
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Now let me introduce you to Watt Abner, my future boss.
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I see uh uh uh uh uh leader in RD.
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He will take good care of you.
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You guys can have a conversation, we really invite you to visit us and maybe you can come work for us.
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I was like, I just that morning, I just came out of a hotel room, shared it with two other people, right?
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Yes.
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I walked 20 minutes.
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Um, and uh here is a guy who says, Hey, I'm I just flew in and I'm so busy, I'm flying out right away.
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It's like, oh, you guys have a lot of money to waste.
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Right.
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Uh of course, uh my future boss Warner treated me well with lunch and inviting me to.
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But you had not talked to FMC before at all?
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They just grabbed you right there.
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Okay.
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No, no.
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Okay.
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Uh of course I visit them and uh I was like, oh wow.
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Industry.
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Of course I work with the model energy, but model energy is a small company.
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Yeah.
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Um when you when you go in the 90s, you visit a big corporation.
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You visit your lab, they have more instrument they could use.
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Yes.
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Uh it's just compared to a university lab, you're like, oh gee.
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Look what I can do.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, what you can do.
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Of course.
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And in 96, my wife got her PhD ready to move.
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Uh, Jeff was ready to move.
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He was moving to Dalhousie in 96.
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Uh huh.
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So we parted our ways in uh in 1996.
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Uh of course, uh, a lot of his students who haven't finished will have to move with him from Vancouver to uh Halifax.
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I just happened to have already concluded my two years of postdoc training, dragged my feet until basically Jeff started to pack his lap for the move.
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And I won FMC in May uh 1996, uh started my industrial experience.
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Um now returning to a semiconductor anymore.
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Right, that's right.
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Left semiconductors behind.
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Before we move on from the postdoc, I'm just curious.
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So while you were in Jeff's group, um you actually overlapped with a number of interesting people.
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You've already mentioned Yul Rick van Sak and Jan Reimers, but there's also Brian Wei, who ended up sort of being the technical leader of Molly and uh Tao Zhang.
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Tao Zhang, yes.
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Oh yeah, I interact with uh we uh when I was uh spending my two years uh postdoc ship there, they're both Jeff Student.
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Right.
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:43.759
Um and the reason I sort of brought these people up is I just I'm curious whether your paths cross again later on in industry, right?
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:47.119
Because Tao Zhang goes on to to uh start C Nano.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:54.160
When he was a uh Bell Corps and it was FMC, we actually worked on something together but never published anything.
00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.839
Uh due to the uh laziness of us.
00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.359
I think I I usually should have published something.
00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:07.920
Because uh but anyway, yeah, let me because it's no longer confidential, it's almost 30 years past.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:19.039
So I was uh I will I already moved my lab from uh North Carolina to Princeton, New Jersey, the corporate headquarters of RD of FMC.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:21.920
So he was in Red Bank, New Jersey, very close.
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:31.839
So next door from my lab is a corporate safety group of FMC, whose job is to study process safety.
00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:35.119
You know, in a chemical plant, a lot of processes would be unsafe.
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:39.039
If it's exothermic, you accumulate heat, you can have a thermal runaway.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.599
So they have is an instrument called microwatt calorimeter.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:45.519
It's a big refrigerator.
00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:59.279
This is a far more microwatt, it's uh uh six-order of a magnitude more sensitive than your DSC, uh, three-order magnitude more sensitive than your ARC, that sort of thing.
00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:00.799
But it's very expensive.
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:06.160
But for process safety for a big chemical company, it's very important.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.119
So there is a group, dedicated group, who's doing that.
00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:14.160
So I tore, I'm because my neighbor, I tore them and say, Eee gee, this is very useful.
00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:20.480
I think we can detect some very, very small side reaction in the battery.
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:22.160
I didn't have a kind of thing.
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:29.839
So I talked to Tao, he was uh studying uh dissolution of SEI on uh graphite.
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:35.519
I said, hey, why don't you bring some of your battery over?
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:38.880
I didn't have the full cell capability, I only had the quant cell.
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:40.079
He had a full cell.
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:43.039
Uh I think he had an 18650 at the right bank.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.759
So I asked how to bring some of his uh full cell over.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:56.319
Let's study uh at different temperatures that this solution I see, because this solution I see, I'm sure it's echo ceramic.
00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:02.000
Usually you cannot detect it, but uh our FMC's microwatt should be able to detect it.
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:02.640
Detect it.
00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:08.400
So I convinced, I think it's very interesting data, but for some reason we never loaded up.
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:15.920
At that time, uh his uh pressures on helping the Bell Corps licensees to make the lamination work.
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:17.279
Just move on.
00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:21.680
Uh because I reported to my boss, my boss, like, oh yeah, sure.
00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:22.480
Who cares?
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:29.279
But you know, you know, you're you're you know that Vincent has and uh Larry Krauss have worked uh doing nanocalorimetry extensively.
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:34.319
It's like so funny because this is exactly what Vincent has done so much of in recent years in cyclic.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:42.960
Yeah, it was uh it was uh around the I think the turn of a century because I think Tao left Bell Cour soon after year 2000.
00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:45.519
This was a great little side side.
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:47.440
I didn't go with it with Taozhang.
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.880
Uh but let's let's rewind to you joining FMC.
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:53.039
So you exactly what did they want you to do?
00:21:53.279 --> 00:22:02.000
Yeah, I started my uh my job at FMC and uh uh my first files is that uh what I'm not I met in Chicago.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.680
So he gave me all the freedom.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:07.200
He gave me a lot of support, people.
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:10.559
And another thing, I was like, wow.
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:18.480
Because I was very used to doing everything myself at uh at uh at the university.
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:20.799
Yeah, all of a sudden you have all this support.
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:24.720
Yeah, they said, hey, you you're you're a PhD guy.
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:26.079
You shouldn't waste.
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.559
I I still don't think it's wasting my time.
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:31.279
But they're their culture is like, hey, don't waste your time.
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:44.000
You just tell other technician or some other, oh, one of my uh the person that reported me, she's still with uh it's no longer FMC today, they're part of a real tinto.
00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:46.640
Uh Marina Yakovleva, you probably remember.
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:47.839
Yeah, we know Marina.
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:52.960
So she was my uh the first one of the first group members in my in my group.
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:53.279
Yeah.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:23:04.480
So so we uh we are the FMC supply locent carbonate to uh Sony, the first Losign battery, commercial lotion battery uh producer.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:08.640
In the late 90s, they brought me to visit Japan, visit Sony all the time.
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:18.640
They were telling Sony, hey, not only will sell your leusing carbonate, battery grade, uh, which is the I think at that time only FFC could produce the purity.
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:23.839
Um but we also we have uh we uh set up our battery, we want to go downstream.
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:28.160
We have our battery group, we have our smart battery people.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:32.880
Uh so share with us what problem uh you want us to solve.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.720
So uh this gentleman called uh Yushio Nishi.
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:50.720
Yeah um so basically say, hey, I we really want to use uh lithi nickel oxide because we don't think uh LCO is the future, but it's uh not safe, it's just too energetic.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:52.640
I want you to make it safer.
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:53.440
Can you do that?
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:58.160
So I came back, I did a lot of uh um DSC on luth.
00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:00.880
So I started the doping.
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:04.799
I tried to reduce the uh exotherm by doping.
00:24:05.359 --> 00:24:07.680
Of course, everyone started with aluminum.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:09.519
This is uh NCA, right?
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:09.759
Right.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:17.759
But I say, hey, NCA doesn't, once you dope it, the capacity goes down and uh the the impedance goes way up.
00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:21.920
I see aluminum doping gives you this uh impedance problem.
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.960
So I say, hey, look, you have to replace nickel, you gotta have a valence three things.
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:30.240
There's not many valence three things you can put in.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:36.240
So one day a LIBOR lit up in my head and said, hey, can I do a combination?
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.720
As long as every valence is three, it's okay.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:44.720
So for instance, I grab a valence four, I grab a valence two, or then I open up a selection.
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:46.880
I can have put in many, many different things.
00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:48.960
So I tried many, many different things.
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:58.319
As long as they have given you an average valence of three, then I don't have to limit myself to uh to aluminum.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:02.240
So I discovered uh combination of titanium and magnesium.
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:06.960
So magnesium, valence two, titanium, valence four, super stable stuff.
00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:14.480
I combine them together, I dope uh L I N IO2, it gets the exotherm weeder.
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:15.200
Wow.
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.480
And it doesn't hurt the impedance so much.
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.640
So I went back, and so Nietzsche sounds so so happy.
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:29.440
That's how I made my uh I made my name at FMC a few months after I joined them.
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.519
So I was uh promoted um less than a year.
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:39.599
And then my boss, War Amner, took another job uh at uh SKC, so he left.
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:41.119
So vacancy.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:48.319
So I uh less than a year I was in his uh his job uh leading many more people.
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:51.359
So we're trying to develop market for LCO.
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.160
Were you trying to scale up uh though that cathode then?
00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:56.240
Or were you uh yes, yes, we tried.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:56.960
We tried.
00:25:57.200 --> 00:26:00.400
But uh we we also were selling LCO.
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.799
Uh we had a toting operation in the US.
00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:08.799
We also had a Caso Drum Venture in Japan with Honju Chemical.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:09.519
I see.
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:20.480
Uh so uh commercial sales LCO became my responsibility as well, even though I initially we only wanted to work on something new.
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:26.160
Yeah, but for a company, the existing product so yes, Big Cash.
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.359
Uh I did a lot of visits in China at that time.
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:34.079
Uh LCO uh only important in Japan.
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:40.720
You know, around uh early 2000, uh one fundamental patent expired.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:57.359
Then all of a sudden you have a Chinese company and uh Korean company all popped up because initially uh the original uh AEA patent in the UK was only licensed to the Japanese.
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:04.000
So that's why how Lucian started, but that patent expired early year 2000.
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:04.559
Right.
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:10.720
Then you have LG, you have uh Samsung, you have uh Lee Shin, you have uh BYD.
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.160
ATL started in 1999.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:25.519
Oh, I I visited them uh soon after they started, so that gave me a lot of commercial exposure, making a lot of uh friends all over the place.
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:38.640
Uh people probably forgot there were quite a few Lusiman battery makers in Taiwan as well, but eventually they all uh folded uh or moved to China.
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:40.400
So so that's interesting.
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:47.440
You know, I really um knew FMC lithium as a lithium carbonate seller.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:51.680
I didn't realize that they were an LCO maker.
00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:01.039
So FMC later on becomes Live and then Arcadium, then now it's Rio Tinto, um, still selling lithium carbonate, and I assume lithium hydroxide.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:09.200
But when you joined, was the main product being sold by FMC lithium carbonate or was it LCO?
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.000
Um main product was listening carbonate.
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:19.119
When I joined FMC, I think they had almost a monopoly in the battery, but my battery space is tiny.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:19.440
Small.
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:26.160
So that gave the FMC a channel to interact with uh company like a Sony, Panasonic.
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:46.079
So I made a frequent trip to Japan to visit Sony, Sanyo in uh Kobe, and Panasonic in uh Osaka, and a smaller player, Toshiba in Tokyo, Hitachi, uh all the every I think uh at one point if I uh I remember there are six uh Japanese players.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:50.799
So we developed uh LCO production in a drone venture in Japan.
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:53.440
We're developing new castle as well.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:29:01.920
I thought uh LCO was the castle of yesterday, but it was but it's still a lot of problems.
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:05.519
Again, thank I I don't think it's confidential anymore.
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:10.480
The only commercial battery maker in the US, sorry, in North America was Molly Energy.
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:16.480
Obviously, I went back to Vancouver and visited Molly Energy from FMC as well.
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:23.279
So I always uh credit Jan Reimert to make me realize a problem I didn't realize.
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:25.920
He he put out a piece of paper.
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:26.960
So look, you want.
00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:32.319
People always show you nice capacity versus psycho number, psycho life.
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:38.880
Yeah, no one shows you energy versus psycholife.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:39.440
That's okay.
00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:42.880
You know, people don't use capacity, people use energy.
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:44.079
Do you know why?
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:45.119
I said, I don't know.
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:53.039
Jen says, because if they show you that, the energy versus psycho life looks like this very ugly.
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:54.240
All the impedance.
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:56.240
Yeah, he's you know why?
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:57.440
I said, I don't know.
00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:04.319
You know, he said there's a big problem with SCO, impedance growth.
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:08.400
The the discharge voltage becomes lower and lower and lower.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:11.279
So even your capacity look pretty.
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:13.680
Your energy versus cycle.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:16.799
So can you can you can you guys uh solve that problem?
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:23.200
So I took that, I remember I took that uh challenge like a 98 or 99.
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:25.359
So I studied the phase algorithm.
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:36.160
First I said, oh, maybe, because I realized there is a cubic phase of LCO in like uh I forgot the temperature, not so high, it's like uh 400-600 degrees.
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:44.319
Uh my hypothesis, oh, must be uh during cooling, you form this cubic phase, that probably gives you the impedance.
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:50.319
So we uh hey you to to make good LCO, you need to crunch cool it.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:51.759
We did it.
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:56.720
Definitely the performance improved, but not to our satisfaction.
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:07.440
Um remember at that time in 97 already made very good called a safe nicolate, that's the code name in within FMC business circle.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:13.680
We we presented to Sony called Safe Nicolate, Titanium Um Magnesian Dope.
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:20.720
So one day I I I was uh reading a paper from a professor in uh Scotland at St.
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:21.680
Andrews University.
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:24.799
So basically, he was studying uh LCO.
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:28.240
He showed like LCO, the P type semiconductor.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:30.319
It was a pure science paper.
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.240
Better people wouldn't pay attention.
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:35.519
So I paid attention because I'm semiconductor guy.
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:37.279
They say, yeah, oh.
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:40.880
So I put in magnesium, I will create more holes.
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:43.680
So I put magnesium, it created more holes.
00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:47.839
Uh yeah, the conductivity went up like a two-order magnitude.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:48.480
Uh-huh.
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.160
Um then uh I tried to dope with uh uh titanium.
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.119
Titanium doesn't move into LCO.
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:56.559
It forms on the surface.
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.279
It never goes in, it doesn't want to move.
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:13.200
So that's basically in a way I failed doping LCO, but I created LI2TIO3 coating on the surface LCO.
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:15.839
And the magnesium created a lot of hosts.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.759
It increased the conductivity like a two-order magnitude.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.480
So so I tested that material.
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.359
Bingo, it was like performance so good.
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:29.839
I could uh I had the data uh 27 years ago.
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:36.799
It shows the impedance, the uh the we measured in the cycle you measured midpoint voltage.
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:41.200
The midpoint voltage stayed flat for a thousand cycles.
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:50.160
So went back, of course, showed Jan Remers of course that data to our customer in uh Samsung, everyone in in Asia.
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:58.960
Yeah uh that eventually that invention became the basis of uh Humicor's LCO based business.
00:32:59.119 --> 00:32:59.599
Oh it's a lot of things.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:06.000
They license, they they first licensed our technology, and then they basically bought the whole pattern.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:11.759
Because I I blame people in Asia.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:16.160
They they got our sample, they got the good performance.
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:20.559
No one should uh show me in my in my face that hey this is wonderful.
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:22.480
They're like an expressionless.
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:25.440
They're hiding their excitement.
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:28.160
They all try to duplicate my material.
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:28.960
Yes.
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:37.039
In order instead of uh saying this is good, they try to circumvent or or or duplicate your material.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:43.119
Because years years later, uh actually I was already at the Pew Lead.
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:49.599
Years years later, I met a battery scientist of a Chinese company.
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:55.599
Uh I don't want to share the name, a big Chinese, well-known, big Chinese battery company.
00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:56.640
He's like, Dr.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.160
Gal, you know what?
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:02.960
When you show me that result, I was like, that's great, that's great.
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:06.160
But my boss said, don't tell them anything.
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:07.519
Yeah, right.
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:08.960
Don't tell them anything.
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:13.360
It was like, eh, I want to tell you how wonderful that material was.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.039
So so we didn't receive any positive feedback.
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:31.039
So in 2003, uh FMC management was like, hey, there's no uh when we started the manufacturing LCO, uh, we have a drone venture in Japan, that's okay, we have a customer there.
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:34.079
We we never invested our cat pack in the US.
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:40.079
We use tolling uh because we're hoping one day we would have a battery company here.
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:45.039
Uh we're we had a high hope for Duracell and every ID, but they all folded.
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:48.320
None of them, they all discontinued their lucid mind.
00:34:48.480 --> 00:34:48.559
Right.
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:53.679
So we have with no customer in in the state.
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:57.760
So the business in Asia, we don't want to continue this business.
00:34:57.840 --> 00:34:58.960
So they pulled the plug.
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:03.840
So FMC exited Castle business in early 204.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:09.360
So they said that from now on, you I know you uh you have a wonderful technology.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:14.559
Why don't you just uh uh yeah, license, license model.
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:24.480
I said I push back and said, no, if you're if you're a sell product, uh you might be able to license your technology for a few years because you're out of action.
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:27.760
You don't get the first hand feedback from customers.
00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:28.960
You cannot improve.
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:32.000
After a few years, your technology will become obsolete.
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:35.679
But they said, yeah, why don't you focus on annoy?
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:41.280
Because uh because, and again, I invented another thing around the year 2000.
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:53.199
Remember, I was uh so frustrated that I couldn't make kind of a big leaf uh on castle side compared to my friends at Jeff Lab on the anode side.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:56.800
So I was sitting there thinking, daydreaming, you name it.
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:01.840
All of a sudden I said, hey, the reason is that uh the castle choice is too limited.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:06.000
The castle choice it has to be conductive, you have enough capacity.
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:09.519
The one restraint is it has to provide lithium.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:18.639
So there's not many, there's not many, you have a spin-out, you have a layered, uh, you have uh olivine, the three family.
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:19.280
That's it.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:21.119
Because you have to provide lithium.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.840
What if we don't have you don't have to limit your choice to lithium providing materials?
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.280
Wouldn't that be good?
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:34.719
So I uh I I talked to uh my boss at that time.
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:46.239
I said, hey, if there's a lithium powder I can use, I can prelutate the anode, then I don't have to limit my choice of cathode anymore.
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.039
But I don't think this kind of a material exists.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:51.360
He looked at me, he said, it does exist.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:54.480
You know, we make butolutium.
00:36:55.199 --> 00:37:01.280
FMC makes butulutium, organoluthium for synthesis as a catalyst.
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:03.920
It's a very dangerous process, by the way.
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:06.320
It burns in contact with air.
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:17.760
He says as an intermediate, we actually make something called lithium dispersion, which is a lithium powder suspended in mineral, mineral oil.
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:18.559
Yeah.
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:27.360
At that time I was only in charge of battery RD, so I never I never paid attention to our lithium extraction in Argentina.
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:31.119
I never paid attention to our organobusiness.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:37.760
So this is another point I want to share uh with our audience or younger generation.
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:42.880
Um you don't want to limit yourself to your own field.
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:45.519
You want to look, keep your eyes open.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:46.639
You never know.
00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:52.159
Uh sometimes the problem you cannot solve with your within your own box uh maybe.
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:54.320
Already solved in some other field.
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:56.159
Exactly, already solved.
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.679
So he was like, yeah, we have a lutin dispersion.
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:03.920
That's allecin powder suspended in uh uh mineral oil.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:09.280
That's what we use to make uh bital, which is a big product we sell.
00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:14.880
I asked him, can he make a you can wash out away mineral oil?
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:18.000
And uh I can use that for my battery research.
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:19.039
And so, no, no, no.
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:20.480
That's uh that's dangerous.
00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:21.920
You cannot, too dangerous.
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.039
You cannot, that's high surface air, lithium metals, too dangerous.
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:26.079
You cannot do that.
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.199
So we we discussed some more in his office.
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:30.960
Oh, his name is John Barba.
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:34.000
He's very smart, uh, inventive.
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:35.440
Uh very uh yeah, he's a well-known.
00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:37.119
He's a key guy for lithium extraction.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:39.039
Oh, yeah, he's uh very active.
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:42.800
I just met him uh in uh Las Vegas in uh two months ago.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:46.400
Uh he's he's uh very active in the lithium extraction field.
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:49.599
At that time he was our technology director, my boss.
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:51.920
So we we brainstormed a little bit.
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:55.519
So we said, hey, maybe we could stabilize it.
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:59.360
Let's just grab this so-called lithium dispersion.
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:02.400
Let's just stabilize it with something.
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:04.800
Um then we can dry it.
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:08.719
Then I can use it because it can become a standalone material.
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:09.840
I can prelute.
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:22.320
So I did a lot of study, great result, because at that time people consider today uh uh silicon uh carbon composite as if it's a new material.
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:26.320
But 26 years ago, there was a company in Japan called Shinizu.
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:34.559
Shinizu is very uh famous for uh for uh silicone type of material.
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:40.079
Uh they are also famous for rare magnet technology.
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:45.280
This will come into my career later on when I was in Moluccore.
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:52.320
But anyway, at that time they were already making silicon carbon composite because they're a silicone company.
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:55.440
They could make that kind of thing very easily.
00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:03.119
But the problem is, you know, silicon carbon composite has a huge universal composite, like a 40-50 percent.
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:03.599
Yeah.
00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:07.440
Because you consume lithium in the first charge.
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:21.920
So um, of course, my objective to is to lithate, proliferate the anode so that I can use manganese uh uh yeah, manganese dioxide, that's kind of a cheap uh material as a castle.
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:23.760
And then also it's very safe.
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.880
So, but I share my result with our friends in Japan.
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:31.840
They're like, hey, gee, this is great for our silicon composite.
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:33.599
That's like a year 2000.
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:41.679
But anyway, so come uh the late 203 FMC management, look at this whole portfolio, battery material portfolio.
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:46.000
You get something very interesting on the annual side as a core to the lithium.
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:52.880
You have castle technology, kind of interesting, but it's not core to our business.
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:54.880
Oh, by the way, your margin.
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:56.960
Uh I happen to be at that year.
00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.760
Do you know lithium carbonate has a high year or low years?
00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:00.159
I see.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:02.639
Sometimes the price is very low, sometimes very high.
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:03.920
Yeah, but it's a high.
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:06.719
When it's a high, you have a margin of 70%.
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:11.440
Uh so in that year, when they did, they do this annual review.
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:15.440
Of course, when they did that review, they got a huge margin on locium carbonate.
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:19.360
They look at the castle, they said you call it uh high-tech materials.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:20.800
Look at your margin, 20%.
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:26.000
You know, selling LCO with 20% margin was very high.
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:33.039
But to them, to FMC management, it's like you while you're in this business.
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:36.320
We can have so much more margin somewhere else, right?
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:37.679
Exactly, exactly.
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:43.199
It's like if something is not like a 30-40 percent margin, you you you you don't kill it.
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.800
Don't don't show it to me.
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:47.280
20%, you have no future.
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:49.280
So we exited the castle.
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:57.360
So my group uh put everything on anode or supporting because at that time we're competing.
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:00.480
I just want to kind of like tie off some of these things.
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:02.960
So so look there you are right there.
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:11.280
You're exiting cathode, and so at that point, when you're exiting, you're you're you're producing by joint venture uh a lithium cobalt dioxide.
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:35.519
You've you've gone around and you've tried to get people interested in in your nickelate and you didn't get much back, but you've probably got patents there, and then you decide to sell license or sell the patents to humicular or yeah, we license we licensed uh technology to a uh a Chinese startup, uh Castle startup, BNM in 203, collecting royalty.
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:37.360
So the management is very happy.
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:43.519
You uh you could like you can make money by doing nothing just to sit there and collect money.
00:42:43.760 --> 00:43:07.360
And also they started to give the uh added responsibility on the commercial side because they observe uh me uh interacting with customer very well, so I was supporting our colleagues in Asia to visit customer in Japan, Korea, China, because we're competing in the low-syncarbonate space with other people by them.
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:11.920
I just want to sort of uh come back to to Kevin's point.
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:32.000
You know, it's really fascinating that there was a company, FMC Lithium, that was ready to make LCO, had unique technology that was best in class in North America, and ended up closing the program because there was nobody to buy it.
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:40.239
Right and and your customers were trying to not show you how valuable your future stuff was when and and make so they could make it themselves.
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:43.360
Right.
00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:47.679
And Yuan, you pointed out you were hoping Duracell would be a customer.
00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:59.760
And um yeah, if listeners are interested, you know, the whole Duracell story we have in episode five from Karthik Ramaswamy, that whole story of how Duracell went into lithiumion.
00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:03.199
Um, yeah, so that was really interesting to me.
00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:09.599
I didn't realize FMC was ready to, you know, be an LCO supplier and then ended up abandoning that thread.
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:09.920
Right.
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:11.440
But you mentioned Yumicorp too.
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:12.239
How did they fit into it?
00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:15.679
Oh, yeah, they had a foresight of seeing this future.
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:18.400
They put in the cap pack, they built their big.
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:21.360
Uh at that time, it's considered big.
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:27.599
I think they put in a 5,000 home per year castle plant in South Korea.
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:29.840
I think around the year 2000 or something.
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:32.559
And I think it's like next door to Samsung SDI.
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:33.599
Right, next next door.
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:34.320
Right, next door.
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:35.679
I uh visit them.
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:41.119
Uh 26 years ago, 5,000 home per year is huge, considered huge, of course.
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:42.480
Today it's nothing.
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.280
Uh they realize this technology is pretty big.
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:51.840
So one day they came to FMC, I don't remember the year, but uh after FMC already exited the castle business.
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:52.159
Okay.
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:57.039
I already have my responsibility on both technology and sales marketing.
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:02.000
Uh they can uh his name uh Kurt Vanderput Vanderput.
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:02.239
Yeah.
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:12.400
They came to me at a conference and said, I want to talk to you guys because you do you guys don't realize the infringement in China on your patent.
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:18.000
Your technology is so good, but you guys are not enforcing it because you guys don't care.
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:22.320
You access the castle, it's not your core business.
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:26.000
Why don't you sell your patent to us?
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:28.880
Because we can be better, much better enforcer.
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:30.960
It's more valuable to us.
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:34.719
So so we came together.
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:39.280
Uh, of course, it's the music to the ear to the FMC management.
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:39.920
Yeah, sure.
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:42.800
Someone willing to pay to buy our patent.
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:45.280
Let's just uh wash our hands.
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:49.119
Uh, because collecting royalty wasn't uh easy.
00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:49.599
Yeah.
00:45:50.320 --> 00:46:00.320
Um it's very hard to check the volume sort of like they didn't, even though we collected some money, but they always suspected uh uh our licensees were cheating on us.
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:04.320
They say, hey, someone someone wants to take it out uh take over.
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:05.280
That's great.
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:14.719
So that's where we sold, we sold uh the whole pattern LCO or Caso portfolio to Unicorp.
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:25.599
Um then I kind of uh um I left FMC in 2010 uh joined Molicorp uh because Dr.
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:29.360
John Berber was CTO of Molycorp.
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:36.239
He basically approached me and said, Look, I mean FMC doesn't care about your battery technology.
00:46:36.800 --> 00:46:37.679
They don't care.
00:46:41.039 --> 00:47:03.840
But uh yeah, so actually before we get into Molycorp, I just wanna you made a point that I think is really important because I think um a lot of people have fallen in that trap, which is a company invents something uh very valuable, they think, oh, it's gonna be easier to make money by licensing it.
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:09.840
And we'll just invent something again later on and we'll keep licensing are great ideas.
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:18.079
And then what happens is, as you point out, they start licensing and then there isn't a magic idea that comes up.
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:18.960
There's no feedback.
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:23.519
And then they're right, and then there's no connection with a customer.
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:24.159
Exactly.
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:27.920
And they're and they're disconnected from the market.
00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:29.519
Exactly.
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:33.679
I think most just look at my my inventions.
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:35.679
It's all triggered by a customer.
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:41.119
This customer presented me with a problem, with a challenge.
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:41.599
Yeah.
00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:46.800
And I uh I try to solve the problem from a customer.
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:58.400
Working with then I I will later on I will share with you my experience with Pew Lead why the uh Chinese castle company keep inventing, because they work very closely with their customer.
00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:04.159
So again, once you're no longer a player, you're out of touch with your customer.
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:11.199
I don't think you have you uh Gen 2, Gen 3 to the license anymore.
00:48:11.360 --> 00:48:17.760
So at some point your your your your residual technology just just expired.
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:23.440
And before before before we leave stabilized lithium, did that, did you make sales of stabilized lithium?
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:29.199
Uh very little, very little, because there's uh poor Marina took uh they are still working on it.
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:39.840
I think they make a huge improvement by because of one of the challenges of uh we call the SLMP, stabilized lithium powder, is very hard to apply.
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:42.559
It's very hard to introduce it to production line.
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:51.440
I think pollution now is widely used in the lithium on battery production, in China at least.
00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:54.320
But uh I I'm not so sure they have a big business.
00:48:54.480 --> 00:49:10.960
Let me put it that way, because they have uh they have a competitor who can make lithium powder, and also a customer figure out other ways not using lithium metal powder to put lithium in, uh, real tint or lithium ink, I think still a one of the good ways if you can reduce the cost.
00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:19.760
Again, the cost is always uh a barrier when you try to develop business in Asia.
00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:24.800
Okay, so now Burba pulls you away towards rare earth magnets.
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:28.559
It was a very exciting time in 2010.
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:36.639
Uh, if you remember, uh rare earth was like uh dead end, no one paid attention, not interesting.
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:40.880
America had a very good mine called Mountain Pass.
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:47.760
It's been operating in California, so they have to shelf it in the 90s.
00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:54.480
I forgot exactly which year, because China has driven the rare price to the bottom.
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:56.320
So it's cheaper to buy.
00:49:56.559 --> 00:49:58.000
That's again in the 90s.
00:49:58.159 --> 00:50:00.159
That was the 90s, early 2000s.
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:02.159
That's kind of a prevailing wind.
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:04.079
If you can buy, you don't make.
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:10.880
So we offshore, it's not just rare earths, we offshore pretty much all manufacturing.
00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:16.639
If you can buy easily, much cheaper, why you make it?
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:22.639
So in 2010, people realized America needs its own rare earths.
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:26.719
So Mountain Pass mines restarted in 2010.
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:31.840
So Maui Corp raised a lot of money to reopen Mountain Pass.
00:50:32.079 --> 00:50:35.360
Uh John Barber was the CTO, so he brought me over.
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:37.440
I learned a lot of new things.
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:41.119
Rare Earth is far more complex than Lusim.
00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:47.199
There's so many elements as sharing one box on the periodic table.
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:50.079
So I learned a lot of interesting things.
00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:56.400
Uh China started to impose restrictions on exports, so price went up 20 times in 2010.
00:50:56.639 --> 00:50:57.920
Exciting times.
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:08.320
So, but then uh China removed the restriction later in 2011, the price crashed, so we faced a lot of uh problems.
00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:08.960
Right.
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:14.000
Um so high, low, high low.
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:16.880
It's like a roller coaster.
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:18.239
Yeah, hard to end the business.
00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:22.719
Yeah, I learned a lot of things in Mongan Pass in terms of technology.
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:29.519
Uh, got involved in uh corporate development, uh merger acquisition, everything because it's like a very small group.
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:32.639
At Moluccore, I learned a lot of geology.
00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:35.280
It came in handy later on in my career.
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:38.239
Uh, mining regulation, all those things.
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:41.840
But anyway, uh, we're not doing well, I have to say.
00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:50.239
Then late 2013, right before Thanksgiving, I received a call from a friend from Pulit.
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:56.159
Remember, I visited all the castle company, all the battery company in China, our Korea in Japan.
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:57.199
I received a call.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:51:59.199
I said, hey, we're trying to find you.
00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:01.519
You disappeared from our space.
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:05.840
Finally, through friends and friends and friends, I we trace you down.
00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:08.159
You're hiding in Colorado.
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:12.000
Remember, I left the space in 2010.
00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:14.880
So by 2013, you disappeared for three years.
00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:16.480
We finally traced you down.
00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:23.039
So we invite you to visit China because you know EV is about to take off.
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:25.840
It's be very important, your knowledge, your everything.
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.440
I said, Oh come on.
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:33.599
Uh people have been telling me uh EV is around the corner for almost years, but never materialized.
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:35.519
I I don't mean that.
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:36.719
Oh no, no, no.
00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:44.960
He said that um they gave me all the solid data why they believe the EV is around the corner to take off.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:48.079
And he said, hey, no string attached.
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:51.440
We invite you to visit us.
00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:58.400
And sure enough, like uh a couple weeks later, I received a call from another castle, Chinese castle company.
00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:02.480
Hey, we trace you down, we track you down, please come visit us.
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:06.000
Uh it's like uh I didn't know why.
00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:10.000
Of course, but then I I said I'm busy in my schedule tight.
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:14.960
The earliest I can visit is after New Year's Day 2014, so I went to visit them.
00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:18.079
Then I realized why?
00:53:18.639 --> 00:53:21.360
Because they got sued by Humakor.
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:36.559
See they wanted me to help them to solve the patent problem, and also, of course, um to help them on other things because really, really, I visit them.
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:39.199
You can see their expansion plant.
00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:41.679
It's like a unimaginable in the US.
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:42.559
It's not like a building.
00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:44.639
So much more plants more quickly.
00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:44.960
Yeah.
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:47.360
Yeah, they're like building big plants.
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:50.400
Uh it's like a dwarf humicorpse plant.
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:54.000
I mean, I already considered, I was like an MV Humicorpse.
00:53:54.079 --> 00:53:56.000
Hey, they build a big plant in South Korea.
00:53:56.079 --> 00:54:00.639
And the ones that see the Chinese plant, hey humicorps plants, small ones.
00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:08.079
So anyway, I uh I after some uh due diligence I decided to join them.
00:54:08.559 --> 00:54:12.800
I reported to work in May 2014.
00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:17.840
Let me interject here because I I probably should have asked this at the very beginning.
00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:25.599
But you know, is your earliest background out of out of China or Taiwan or um Oh I I grew up in Beijing, China.
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:27.039
I never worked in China.
00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:28.480
Okay, I was always assumed.
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:38.239
But that might have been one of the reasons they they look at your patents for sure and so on, but they also realize okay, he's he's I don't have I don't have a language problem, I don't have a culture problem.
00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:41.280
And you know everybody in the field, you know the entire world's field.
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:43.039
Oh, I had an older connection.
00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:48.719
I uh for instance, uh you know ATL, which is princessors now famous C ATL.
00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:52.800
I visited them when they only have a handful of employees.
00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:59.599
I knew them all as uh I visited uh BYD back in uh 98, I think.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:03.280
When I came back, I reported to uh the management.
00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:07.199
I uh visit uh uh yeah, we visited uh a company called PYD.
00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:08.800
It's like who's PYD?
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:12.079
Why are you wasting your time visiting PYD?
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:14.320
You should spend all your time at Sony.
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:20.719
Why you made a detour to Shenzhen to with the who who what's the name of the company again?
00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:22.239
Yeah, that sort of thing.
00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:27.280
The first time we visited Li Shen, they only have a blueprint on the wall.
00:55:27.440 --> 00:55:29.840
The factory was not even built yet, right?
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:34.239
They were still operating out of their research institute number 18.
00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:36.000
That's the first time we visited them.
00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:41.119
So I knew those founders of those uh uh uh big companies.
00:55:41.280 --> 00:55:44.000
Yeah, so they always joke with me, said, hey Dr.
00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:48.400
Gao, if you joined us at that time, you'd be uh very rich.
00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:56.719
So uh I didn't, of course, I didn't I didn't uh uh but I was uh financially okay in 2014.
00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:02.800
I was like saying, hey, if uh if I went back, nothing worked out, I could retire.
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:04.480
I'm not a big spender.
00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:09.519
Uh I made a lot of money at Model Core and FMC stock off and everything.
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:12.239
Yeah so I was already a senior uh at MotoCore.
00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:20.000
The other thing I learned, I never had uh board experience uh FMC, even at as a uh global marketing director.
00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:23.360
Uh Model Core, I finally reached the level of a VP.
00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:25.440
You got all the right things for PULAD.
00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:26.239
Sure.
00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:27.519
So I got all this.
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:32.800
Uh so by the time I went back to field, I already reached very high level in the US corporate life.
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:37.760
And uh I if I had to retire in 2014, I would be okay.
00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:41.039
But one thing always intrigued me at FMC.
00:56:41.199 --> 00:56:47.840
Every time I give a quote to a Chinese company, they always say, Hey, I get another quote from uh your Chinese competitor.
00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:50.000
It's like uh way, way low.
00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:52.400
That's like how we did the old analysis.
00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:54.639
There's no way they could be that.
00:56:55.360 --> 00:57:01.199
So I was like, uh, yeah, I want to figure out how they can make the cost so low.
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:02.079
So cheap, yeah.
00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:05.679
Yeah, so this is my opportunity to work there.
00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:06.079
Yeah.
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:12.159
So then I would learn first hand because a lot of people tell me, but I want to get my first hand knowledge.
00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:14.639
Why they can make things so cheap.
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:15.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:16.639
What did you find out?
00:57:16.719 --> 00:57:17.440
What's the secret?
00:57:17.840 --> 00:57:18.400
Oh, yeah.
00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:20.719
Uh many, many things combined, all of above.
00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:25.039
I guess uh people, some people say, oh, they got heavy government subsidies.
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:36.480
Uh they they got uh uh but one thing, one thing at least is no longer true today, in the early days, 20 years ago, probably true, uh cheap labor no longer.
00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:40.079
Uh today uh Chinese labor is no longer cheap.
00:57:40.320 --> 00:57:45.679
Number one, number two, uh castle manufacturing is pretty automated.
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:50.320
You labor doesn't account for very little.
00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:54.480
So even you pay people zero, you don't save a lot of money.
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:58.320
Uh but uh so many, many things.
00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:08.559
I think one one driver is that uh once I became a uh the CEO of a PLEAT, uh the first half a year, I made a point.
00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:14.559
Every morning I was sitting there morning meeting at manufacturing.
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:18.800
I would make my tour, so I want to learn first hand.
00:58:19.039 --> 00:58:20.960
Yeah, I get my hand dirty.
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:29.920
It's just like I I got my hand even at the FMC when I do my research, I got an assistant, I try to do my own experiment.
00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:43.039
So at the PewDiePie, I I make I didn't need to, but I uh first six months I toured every single piece, part of manufacturing.
00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:49.119
Um in China, there is this huge drive in making everything efficient.
00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:51.599
This is really a big driver.
00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:53.679
Government subsidy, yes.
00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:58.639
That's why when I came back, I was invited to on some panel discussion.
00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:00.400
I always put this out.
00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:05.280
I said when you build something new, it's a huge learning curve cost.
00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:05.760
Right.
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:08.719
Things don't work at first and you have a lot of low yield and all that.
00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:10.000
Your yield is low.
00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:12.159
Battery, battery yield would be low.
00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:14.159
Your material yield is very low.
00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:18.559
LCO okay, because you can sell LCO for cobalt value.
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:20.800
LVP, there's no value.
00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:24.079
So if your yield is low, it's lost.
00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:25.519
Yeah, it's a loss.
00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:37.599
So initially, now of course the Chinese government already, I think it phased out their subsidy, but back when 2014 was drawn them, all sorts of uh support you can apply.
00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:46.960
On RD, if you spend more than 3% of your revenue on RD, you qualify as so-called high-tech company.
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:54.480
You get all sort of a uh your tax corporate tax rate is way lower than normal corporate tax.
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:54.880
Uh huh.
00:59:55.119 --> 00:59:58.079
You get some rebate on your RD spending.
00:59:58.400 --> 01:00:05.679
Also, when I was an FMC, I tried to work with some universities, uh, two things.
01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:10.159
One, they'll tell you, oh, our overhat 60%.
01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:16.800
You pay us$100,000 a year, only$40,000 goes to that professor.
01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:20.880
How much the professor can do is$40,000?
01:00:20.960 --> 01:00:22.639
Maybe one postdoc or something.
01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:24.880
$60,000 goes to university.
01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:33.519
And every university has the industry liaison office or technology transfer office.
01:00:33.679 --> 01:00:34.400
Right, right, right, right.
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:45.119
I always tell you the Gatorade story on University of Florida.
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:56.000
And so I want okay, a racing IP, anything you develop with the professor so and so belongs to the university.
01:00:56.800 --> 01:00:57.760
All sorts of things.
01:00:58.079 --> 01:00:59.039
Right, right, right.
01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:05.519
Uh when I went back to China work at Pulitz I had a lot of universal collaboration.
01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:06.239
Totally different.
01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:07.039
Totally different.
01:01:07.119 --> 01:01:12.639
They were basically, you don't need to pay me anything, and you own all the IP.
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:14.400
Why?
01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:18.719
Because I write a grant proposal to the government funding agency.
01:01:18.800 --> 01:01:23.760
If I put your name on it, I'll say we have an industry sponsor.
01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:28.320
The government, I increase my chance of getting that money.
01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:29.840
I don't need your money.
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:31.760
I get a lot of money from the government.
01:01:31.840 --> 01:01:40.639
I just need to play, hey, my research topic is useful to the industry because I have an industry sponsor, a call Pulli.
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:40.960
Right.
01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:42.480
They sign off on that.
01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:43.840
I get my money.
01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:49.760
So you can get a university doesn't want to claim the IP, the IP belongs to you.
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:52.880
That kind of a in the subsidy?
01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:54.480
Yes, of course.
01:01:54.719 --> 01:02:00.239
So I think the ecosystem in China, it's just a lot more pro-industry.
01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:05.360
Did Pully do a lot of research themselves, or were they mainly focused on manufacturing?
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:10.960
Oh, we we we came out, basically our RD came out of Peking University.
01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:21.280
Oh, if you look at the company name, uh today uh Peking University doesn't have any share, but that they won when the company was formed, it's a lot of share from the university.
01:02:21.440 --> 01:02:23.920
They kind of sold divasted their shares.
01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:30.159
So PewDiePie is uh PU stands for Peking University Lead, uh Peking University Lead.
01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:32.400
That's how they put the name together.
01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:40.159
Uh so we uh at one point before we built our RD center, where our RD Center was was on campus.
01:02:41.360 --> 01:02:45.519
So after we built our RD building, they will move our people out.
01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:50.559
We still uh we still utilize their instrument, SEM, everything, you name it.
01:02:50.719 --> 01:02:53.679
Uh now now, of course, PewDiePie is very rich today.
01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:54.800
They have a TM.
01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:57.119
How many castle companies would have a TM?
01:02:57.440 --> 01:03:05.039
They have a TM, they have XPS, they have all the expenses, but they want you utilize universities, yeah, instrument.
01:03:05.519 --> 01:03:05.840
For free.
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:07.280
Yeah, for free.
01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:13.440
Um and uh you you you you come up with a subject, you you go talk to a professor.
01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:15.599
Uh yeah, I did that.
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:28.800
I uh I talked to MIT professor, I talked to Rutgers University, I talked to I I I collaborated with Clemson University near our RD Center, which is uh an hour drive away.
01:03:29.039 --> 01:03:32.880
Oh this university, oh, we need 60% overhead.
01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:37.119
Oh university uh university needs to own all the IP right.
01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:38.880
Oh, this thing is so hard.
01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:42.480
And it's day and night difference when you work with Chinese universities.
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:43.039
Interesting.
01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:44.719
Do you think it's still that way in China today?
01:03:45.039 --> 01:03:45.760
Or has it changed?
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:46.639
I don't know.
01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:49.039
But when I was there, it was like that.
01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:51.760
It's uh it's so pro-industry.
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:53.199
So pro-industry.
01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:55.440
The other thing is the loan guarantees.
01:03:55.679 --> 01:04:00.079
You want to do an expansion, uh, you need uh capital.
01:04:00.559 --> 01:04:09.760
Oh, it's just if I remember correctly, one of the loans uh we took out to build our uh I also built two, not just castle.
01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:13.840
I during my tenure, I built two separate plants too.
01:04:14.079 --> 01:04:25.840
The loan we took, the delta between the commercial, the commercial rate and the one percent we pay is all paid for, subsidized by the industrial park, the local government.
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:28.320
The local government, hey, we pay for that delta.
01:04:28.559 --> 01:04:35.599
So we we we we call the bank, hey, give those guys a loan because this is important for our industrial park.
01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:38.960
Uh the bank will say, hey, I need to charge 6%.
01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:43.840
The industrial park says, hey, I will pay the delta, you charge them one percent.
01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:44.559
Yeah.
01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:48.719
Yes, this support is enormous.
01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:52.400
Um you pay for the learning curve cost.
01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:56.079
But once you have the volume, it's a chicken and egg.
01:04:56.239 --> 01:04:57.599
You got to practice.
01:04:57.840 --> 01:04:59.760
You practice, you reach today.
01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:02.400
If you look at PewDiePie yield, it's probably 99%.
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:04.719
Your cost is very low.
01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:09.840
But day one, when you turn it on, your yield is very low, your cost is way high.
01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:12.880
Somebody got to pay for the uh learning curve costs.
01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:13.760
Same thing.
01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:14.880
CETL.
01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:18.719
No one can compete with them because their yield is very high.
01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:24.320
But 10 years ago, when their yield was very low, who paid for their learning curve costs?
01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:26.800
The government local local government, probably.
01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:27.599
Yeah, yeah.
01:05:27.760 --> 01:05:32.880
And also, um, those of the RD support, and Chinese people work hard.
01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:34.079
Um you have to admit that.
01:05:34.320 --> 01:05:35.599
Yeah, I wanted to ask about that.
01:05:35.679 --> 01:05:42.960
You know, you've you you worked in a few places in industry uh in the US and and then uh and then there you are in China.
01:05:43.360 --> 01:05:45.840
People generally say, Oh, yeah, the Chinese people work really hard and so on.
01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:52.320
But you got you got to see it and you say you like to get your hands dirty, so you saw it at the factory and and the lab and then the business administration.
01:05:52.559 --> 01:05:53.440
What did you really see?
01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:59.760
How how would you describe that work ethic and the you see this big CETL building in England?
01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:00.480
Do.
01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:02.239
You go there at 10 p.m.
01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:04.559
You see that the light is still on.
01:06:04.960 --> 01:06:05.679
Ah, I see.
01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:09.760
It's uh well the other thing, the ecosystem is very different.
01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:15.920
It's like uh uh in a Chinese company, most of the employees are from out of town.
01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:21.920
Yeah, they don't relocate their family to that place, their family stays behind.
01:06:22.559 --> 01:06:32.000
So from the top guy to, for instance, Pulli's uh uh flagship uh factories in Qinghai, Western China.
01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:36.159
The reason they put it there is so that they get government support for Lithium.
01:06:36.559 --> 01:06:38.639
Because Qinghai is a big lithium production.
01:06:38.960 --> 01:06:42.880
If you don't invest in that place, you don't get priority to get lithium.
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:55.039
So if you look at the topic exactly from the chairman to CEOs to uh VPs or RD people, no one, very few people came from that region.
01:06:55.199 --> 01:06:57.360
They're probably from Shanghai, from Beijing.
01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:03.280
They all work there, but their family is still in bigger, more well developed places.
01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:08.079
So you live in in China, in the C A T L too.
01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:10.639
Most of the employees live in company dorms.
01:07:11.039 --> 01:07:11.440
Right.
01:07:11.760 --> 01:07:14.320
So you're like, hi, I'm here.
01:07:15.119 --> 01:07:20.800
I uh I don't get to go see my family after work.
01:07:21.199 --> 01:07:23.920
So might as well just stay in my lab, in my office.
01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:25.039
Just keep working, right?
01:07:25.280 --> 01:07:27.440
Yeah, until it's time to go to bed.
01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:28.239
Right.
01:07:28.480 --> 01:07:31.920
So earlier you mentioned your wife when she was completing her PhD.
01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:34.719
So when you worked at Pew Lead, did she move to China as well?
01:07:34.960 --> 01:07:37.760
No, no, uh, I was by myself.
01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:40.159
Uh but Pew Lead, uh, I have to thank them.
01:07:40.239 --> 01:07:42.159
They give me a very good package.
01:07:42.480 --> 01:07:47.920
In order to lure me over, they allow me to uh go back home six times a year.
01:07:48.159 --> 01:07:51.840
Allow my wife, my son to visit China four times, company paid.
01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:55.440
So they could visit China four times, I could come back six times.
01:07:55.679 --> 01:07:58.960
Um but I never, I was so busy.
01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:00.800
I uh I never came back.
01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:05.360
I think on average, I probably only came back uh four times per year.
01:08:05.519 --> 01:08:12.320
Uh my wife, as a professor, never could visit me four times a year, probably a couple times, a couple of times a year.
01:08:12.480 --> 01:08:15.280
Uh but we we also managed to meet somewhere else.
01:08:15.360 --> 01:08:17.119
Sometimes we meet in Europe.
01:08:17.520 --> 01:08:25.680
Uh another thing about PewDieP stands out in among old Chinese, because when I drawn there, the first thing I said, I want to make sure.
01:08:26.239 --> 01:08:29.600
If you don't, if you don't, you guys don't agree with me, I don't come.
01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:32.880
I want PewD to be totally compliant.
01:08:33.279 --> 01:08:37.119
I don't want, I don't like the guy, it's like infringe other pattern.
01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:40.800
So if we do something, we actually we get license.
01:08:40.880 --> 01:08:44.800
So PewDiePie was the only company at that time we have a license from Humicor.
01:08:45.039 --> 01:08:47.359
Basically licensing back, my invention.
01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:54.640
We got license from this uh Swiss company of FLP plus C uh licensing.
01:08:54.880 --> 01:08:58.800
We got the FIP license, we got NMC license.
01:08:58.880 --> 01:09:04.800
Well, we we waited a little bit on the battle between 3M and uh BSF.
01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:09.119
Once that's settled, uh uh we license from BSF.
01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:12.079
So we're the only company who has license from O3.
01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:16.079
Uh we could uh business outside of China.
01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:20.479
So just you know, for the LFP plus C license package, you know.
01:09:20.640 --> 01:09:35.840
So there's uh the episode with Michel Gauthier that that mentions that for us, um, which was episode three and Kareem Zagib's episode, episode eight, that sort of talk about how that license that patent portfolio was built.
01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:41.920
Um so that's really interesting that you mentioned, like, oh, they're calling me because there's there's infringement cases.
01:09:42.079 --> 01:09:43.439
I was about to ask what happened.
01:09:43.520 --> 01:09:49.680
Um so that was really interesting that you put that as a as a condition for joining their team that everything had to be properly licensed.
01:09:50.079 --> 01:09:54.000
I I have to I want to make sure you're compliant.
01:09:54.239 --> 01:10:06.720
I don't know if an organization have to have uh some liabilities, but I one thing I can promise you, because you guys don't know who to talk to to get a license or get a good deal.
01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:11.840
So I I did get some very good deal from from Humicor from BSF.
01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:16.239
I talked and uh Mike Fuchenko Frchenko is a good friend of mine.
01:10:16.399 --> 01:10:19.680
We work out a deal that's good for BSF, good for us.
01:10:19.840 --> 01:10:22.560
I work uh Kurt was a good friend of mine.
01:10:22.640 --> 01:10:27.039
I said, hey, we can join force to enforce patent in China.
01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:29.680
So for that, you give me a better deal.
01:10:29.840 --> 01:10:31.439
Uh smart.
01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:34.319
So again, uh FOP is the same thing.
01:10:34.479 --> 01:10:36.079
So you want to set an example.
01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:40.720
You want to set an example that uh if you are compliant, you get something, right?
01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:41.279
Yeah, right.
01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:42.479
Yeah, yeah, good idea.
01:10:42.720 --> 01:10:50.640
So did it make it harder for Pure League to compete with other Chinese material makers because you were paying license fees?
01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:51.680
Yes.
01:10:52.239 --> 01:10:57.199
Unfortunately, it opened our door outside for the longest time.
01:10:57.359 --> 01:11:00.720
We were the only one who could sell FIP outside of China.
01:11:00.960 --> 01:11:01.359
I see.
01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:07.119
We sold in Korea, we sold in Europe, not big, but we're the only one.
01:11:07.359 --> 01:11:14.560
But in China, we try to collect, we we will try to charge a little bit higher price for that royalty.
01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:16.640
Oh, we go to get the pushback.
01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:23.199
Oh, yeah, why don't you guys figure out a way not to uh your competitor never charge us that?
01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:32.960
Uh so we uh I have to tell you, CETL is very good because they are they they have in overseas, they always pay us the royalty.
01:11:33.279 --> 01:11:37.920
They're saying they want to be uh ATL, CETL always compliant.
01:11:38.159 --> 01:11:46.880
Some other companies uh oh no no, you you cannot charge us that uh uh additional competitor, they don't charge that.
01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:49.119
So it's uh it's a little bit hard.
01:11:49.199 --> 01:11:51.680
Uh for some company, not all the companies.
01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:55.600
Um I think BYD was pretty good uh later on.
01:11:56.880 --> 01:11:59.680
They realize they had a big exposure.
01:11:59.920 --> 01:12:04.560
If they don't do things properly, they might have a liability too.
01:12:04.720 --> 01:12:06.399
So they are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem.
01:12:06.479 --> 01:12:08.560
You you pass it through to us.
01:12:08.720 --> 01:12:16.239
So so I think my conclusion is if someone becomes big name overseas, they tend to play by the rules.
01:12:16.399 --> 01:12:16.640
I see.
01:12:16.960 --> 01:12:19.920
If they're not big names, uh which many.
01:12:20.079 --> 01:12:23.039
I mean in China, you get so many companies.
01:12:23.199 --> 01:12:29.279
Uh some companies they're they're they're happy with uh selling aftermarket product.
01:12:29.439 --> 01:12:37.520
You know, even today, there's some Chinese companies they sell battery only into this uh battery bank for charging your phones.
01:12:37.760 --> 01:12:38.640
There's no name.
01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:41.279
It's like, hey, I I don't care.
01:12:42.000 --> 01:12:42.560
Right.
01:12:43.680 --> 01:12:44.319
Right.
01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:51.920
So so when you in 2014, when you joined Pew Lead, were they already making LFP, NMC, and LCO?
01:12:52.000 --> 01:12:53.840
What was the biggest, what was the sort of spelling?
01:12:54.159 --> 01:12:55.279
Where did it start and how did it grow?
01:12:55.840 --> 01:13:00.800
Oh, LCO was their big when I joined them, LCO was the biggest product.
01:13:01.119 --> 01:13:08.239
Already they were uh I cannot claim credit, they were already in the Apple supply chain, but I strengthened that relationship.
01:13:08.399 --> 01:13:12.960
I made it improved, but they already are very successful there.
01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:16.159
Uh but Alpha P was growing.
01:13:16.399 --> 01:13:22.800
They just started a big plant, but uh still sort of learning their ways.
01:13:23.039 --> 01:13:30.720
So by the time I left, uh by the time I retired, uh they were already big notch up.
01:13:31.119 --> 01:13:35.279
So I think today their biggest castle product is FLP.
01:13:36.319 --> 01:13:40.319
They still sell LCO, but it's in terms of volume and value.
01:13:40.720 --> 01:13:44.000
I think order magnitude is smaller than FP now.
01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:48.640
But uh back in 2014 it was their biggest product.
01:13:48.800 --> 01:14:01.760
Uh PewDiePie has never been big in uh NMC because uh I think in a way it's the right thing to do because they never felt comfortable with a high nickel.
01:14:02.319 --> 01:14:07.520
So their NMC product is always kind of a mid-nickel type of product.
01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:07.920
Right.
01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:14.560
So it wasn't fashionable during the period of 2017, 2018, 2019.
01:14:14.640 --> 01:14:21.680
Now I think people realize mid-nickel is really you want you want a more stable material.
01:14:21.840 --> 01:14:26.479
So in terms of castle, their big their biggest product is the FOP.
01:14:26.960 --> 01:14:30.159
They have a low temperature, also their portfolio.
01:14:30.319 --> 01:14:35.039
Uh they have a high density FOP, which is everyone wants to have.
01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:42.479
They also have a high power FOP, and a low temperature FOP, which is difficult, not many people can make.
01:14:43.119 --> 01:14:59.039
We don't really want to get too close to the present because then we start to run into uh stuff you probably can't talk about, but nonetheless, uh you you know that did, as you say, you stepped down and you left somewhere around 2019 and and continue to be very active in the space.
01:14:59.199 --> 01:15:07.119
You haven't really retired, you're you're out there on boards and you're um you're consulting and and on quite a quite a lot still.
01:15:07.279 --> 01:15:13.279
And so you know, I can see you're involved in in you know lithium supply and you're still involved in um LFP on it.
01:15:13.359 --> 01:15:23.439
Since you just mentioned the LFP, I'm I'm curious, you know, without going into your your details of what you're really doing, you know, what can you say very generally about the future here?
01:15:23.600 --> 01:15:28.000
So where do you think the future is gonna go here for iron phosphate?
01:15:28.079 --> 01:15:29.359
Is it gonna take over more and more?
01:15:29.439 --> 01:15:32.159
Are we gonna see like I have I have three EVs.
01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:36.720
I have a Leaf, I have a Ionic, and I have a leaf.
01:15:36.960 --> 01:15:37.760
I have a Tesla.
01:15:37.920 --> 01:15:38.800
Oh yeah, that's right.
01:15:38.960 --> 01:15:40.800
And none of them have the LFP yet.
01:15:40.960 --> 01:15:42.640
I think some of the other ones do nowadays.
01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:47.279
But what do you think the future is for LFP, you know, both globally and uh North America?
01:15:47.600 --> 01:15:52.479
Yeah, I think um, and again, I'm uh uh people always ask me to pick a winner.
01:15:52.560 --> 01:15:55.600
I think every castle has this suitable use.
01:15:55.760 --> 01:15:59.119
I don't write off uh back in during my career.
01:15:59.199 --> 01:16:01.199
Sometimes people write off FOP.
01:16:01.359 --> 01:16:03.760
It says the future belongs to high nickel.
01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:07.359
Um next year it will say, oh, future belongs to FLP.
01:16:07.600 --> 01:16:11.039
Nickel, uh people no one will use it, it's not stable.
01:16:11.119 --> 01:16:17.279
I think every castle has its uh proper use, uh suitable application depends on application.
01:16:17.439 --> 01:16:22.640
So I'm very high on FOP and in the meantime, I'm also very high on NMC.
01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:24.640
Depends on your application.
01:16:24.800 --> 01:16:29.039
I'm I think for certain applications you can also use a sodium ion.
01:16:29.199 --> 01:16:32.079
It's just it just depends on what application.
01:16:32.239 --> 01:16:36.720
It's not like uh one castle will take over the whole battery space.
01:16:36.800 --> 01:16:39.520
I mean a lot acid still in existence today.
01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:53.520
It's uh um but I I do think I think LP will have a bigger share than NMC because in terms of the performance and value, it has the right mix for a bigger market.
01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:57.039
Uh NMC may be for certain applications.
01:16:57.279 --> 01:17:01.119
Really, applications really require higher energy density.
01:17:01.520 --> 01:17:07.760
And for certain applications, you might want you don't even want to use FLP, you want to use sodium ion.
01:17:08.079 --> 01:17:16.479
So are you saying like uh LFP among lithium ions LFP can't be beat in terms of uh dollars per energy?
01:17:16.960 --> 01:17:18.000
Uh is that what you're saying?
01:17:18.159 --> 01:17:26.000
Whereas if you sodium ions maybe going to be even better for dollars per energy, but maybe not maybe not per volume or weight, but per energy.
01:17:28.479 --> 01:17:32.880
So sodium is coming in, it's a low temperature performance.
01:17:33.119 --> 01:17:35.439
Okay, low temperature performance.
01:17:35.600 --> 01:17:42.800
Um I think a dollar uh in the future might have some dollar per energy value, but not there yet.
01:17:43.039 --> 01:17:43.279
Uh-huh.
01:17:43.600 --> 01:17:45.439
Um but iron phosphate is.
01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:46.079
Yes.
01:17:46.239 --> 01:17:46.560
Yes.
01:17:46.720 --> 01:17:51.039
If you look at the dollar per energy, uh the winner is FIP.
01:17:51.199 --> 01:17:51.359
Okay.
01:17:51.680 --> 01:17:54.000
Today, even compared to sodium iron.
01:17:54.079 --> 01:18:00.000
But sodium iron has a potential of uh providing good dollar per energy.
01:18:00.159 --> 01:18:06.239
And also sodium, the life is not there yet, but I think it has a potential to be there.
01:18:06.560 --> 01:18:10.399
And the other thing I want to mention is a project I'm involved in.
01:18:10.640 --> 01:18:17.359
I'm not ready to share too much detail, but I think it's a lot of work can be done on the annual side.
01:18:17.520 --> 01:18:20.720
Uh ask yourself why people move to solid state.
01:18:20.960 --> 01:18:25.359
Because we want to suppress the dendroid, we want to use the lesson metal as an annual.
01:18:25.439 --> 01:18:33.359
But I think we we finally figure out a way to control the dendroid in a liquor system.
01:18:33.520 --> 01:18:35.439
I think that will be a big impact.
01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:48.560
So again, uh again, I I'm enjoying my status right now because in the past, when I was an employee, a corporate employee, you can only come in through one touch point.
01:18:48.880 --> 01:19:04.079
Now, with my board work or consulting work, I'm touching the industry on cashod, on lithium extraction, lithium supply, on precursor, on anode, on all sorts of things.
01:19:04.239 --> 01:19:06.800
It gives me a more holistic picture.
01:19:06.960 --> 01:19:12.640
I could never, uh I didn't have when I was a full-time employee.
01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:16.159
But I want to make sure I don't have a conflict interest.
01:19:16.239 --> 01:19:25.680
So each entry point is a one company, but I could touch the whole supply chain through many, many doors or windows.
01:19:26.159 --> 01:19:28.640
That's really uh that's something I really enjoyed.
01:19:28.720 --> 01:19:34.079
I'm still as busy as a I think I may uh my wife was uh complaining the other day.
01:19:34.319 --> 01:19:38.399
I think I'm uh busier uh than a full-time employee.
01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:40.640
I'm involved in so many different things.
01:19:40.800 --> 01:19:42.159
That's really exciting.
01:19:42.399 --> 01:19:42.880
Yeah, yeah.
01:19:43.279 --> 01:19:44.079
That's only fun.
01:19:44.399 --> 01:19:58.800
So you have a like a really kind of unique vantage point because you were with a company in you know the early 2000s, late 90s that did manufacturing for the battery space in North America.
01:19:59.039 --> 01:20:10.720
Then you have the experience of actually scaling catholic material production in China, and then now you have exposure to board level and consulting of North American companies.
01:20:11.359 --> 01:20:21.920
Looking back of the the experience from the 90s and early 2000s, what lessons do you think we should learn from that era?
01:20:22.159 --> 01:20:26.319
What what are the lessons that companies today should learn from that era?
01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:34.319
I think we uh we give up too easily, but it's uh I don't know how to change that business culture.
01:20:34.640 --> 01:20:39.680
If you were for a big public company, you look at your numbers quarter by quarter.
01:20:39.920 --> 01:20:44.560
I always uh wonder how we stayed in the castle space.
01:20:44.800 --> 01:20:58.720
We're we're we invented so many things so far in advance, but we didn't rip the uh most of the benefit because we're like uh the business decision was made.
01:20:58.800 --> 01:21:03.680
It's like, hey, yeah, your margin's not high enough, why don't you do something, go do something else?
01:21:03.920 --> 01:21:05.119
Um we're not unique.
01:21:05.279 --> 01:21:06.560
FMC is not unique.
01:21:06.800 --> 01:21:11.439
So many US corporations made similar decisions.
01:21:11.760 --> 01:21:13.840
So we're looking back, yeah.
01:21:14.159 --> 01:21:22.239
If you were the company executive, top guy, even CEO, uh, you probably made the same decision or you'll be gone.
01:21:22.319 --> 01:21:24.399
You'll be fired by the board anyway.
01:21:24.960 --> 01:21:28.399
Um so so I think it's a business culture.
01:21:28.560 --> 01:21:37.760
The other thing I always have been uh calling for help is that if we uh everyone talked about building up a North American supply chain.
01:21:37.920 --> 01:21:48.800
I every time I I had my chance to voice my plea, I always said, please, there is a challenge of a learning curve cost.
01:21:49.199 --> 01:22:01.439
If we're serious, if we're serious about building our own supply chain back home in North America, somebody got to pay for the learning curve costs.
01:22:01.600 --> 01:22:06.000
Customers are not gonna consumer, you can't ask them.
01:22:06.640 --> 01:22:07.600
Consumer won't pay.
01:22:07.680 --> 01:22:13.840
You cannot say, hey, my materials are twice as expensive because I I my I don't have the experience.
01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:16.560
My yield is 50%, not 99%.
01:22:16.960 --> 01:22:19.920
So because I need to charge consumer twice as much.
01:22:20.159 --> 01:22:20.479
No.
01:22:20.800 --> 01:22:27.680
So in order to compete, please somebody give us the support, uh sustained support.
01:22:27.840 --> 01:22:33.119
Not like we have we pass a law, give you support for two or three years, and it's gone.
01:22:33.600 --> 01:22:46.960
Um I think it's uh worse than having uh uh I think giving you a sugar high for two years, then we struggle is probably worse than having no support.
01:22:47.520 --> 01:22:48.640
Yeah, interesting.
01:22:48.960 --> 01:22:51.840
And we not we gotta have a 10-year program.
01:22:52.319 --> 01:23:02.079
Uh China, China's EV industry is where it is today because they s they had a 10 or 20 year program.
01:23:02.399 --> 01:23:05.600
You know, your your China is examples makes me think of something.
01:23:05.760 --> 01:23:11.760
Uh and a lot of people don't realize it if they haven't been involved in it, but it's not all coming from the national government.
01:23:11.840 --> 01:23:13.199
A lot of it is coming from the local.
01:23:13.279 --> 01:23:13.439
Yep.
01:23:13.680 --> 01:23:16.079
From the province government, from the money is coming from them.
01:23:16.159 --> 01:23:20.319
And uh also not even provincial, the industrial park.
01:23:20.560 --> 01:23:21.600
Even the industrial park.
01:23:22.000 --> 01:23:25.840
The central government support in terms of some of the incentives, yeah.
01:23:26.000 --> 01:23:34.239
Then you have a provincial support, even the industrial park will give you uh well, like say you build a factory, you need a piece of uh real estate.
01:23:34.399 --> 01:23:38.399
Uh, you probably don't need to pay for that piece of real estate for many years.
01:23:39.199 --> 01:23:40.640
Deferred payment.
01:23:41.119 --> 01:23:48.640
What uh what it leads to is like, well, of course, at the federal government in the US, it'll go flip-flop back and forth every you know four to eight years.
01:23:48.800 --> 01:23:50.000
But not states.
01:23:50.239 --> 01:23:59.439
In the states uh uh in the US, most states stay one way or the other politically for more like six years at least, if not longer.
01:23:59.840 --> 01:24:05.199
If somehow states could have uh you know help with the funding, then that could you could get more sustained funding.
01:24:05.520 --> 01:24:06.399
And there is some of that.
01:24:06.479 --> 01:24:08.800
There is that available, but but maybe we don't use it enough.
01:24:08.880 --> 01:24:11.840
Maybe we maybe we should all be aiming to expand on that.
01:24:12.159 --> 01:24:13.119
Yeah, I think so.
01:24:13.439 --> 01:24:17.600
First we have to admit, if we don't admit it, we never improve.
01:24:17.920 --> 01:24:22.000
We had to admit in terms of UV's supply chain, we're behind.
01:24:22.239 --> 01:24:22.560
Right.
01:24:23.119 --> 01:24:27.359
So to catch up with somebody require more energy.
01:24:27.520 --> 01:24:27.840
Yeah.
01:24:28.000 --> 01:24:28.319
Right?
01:24:28.560 --> 01:24:31.680
So this additional energy has to come from somewhere.
01:24:31.760 --> 01:24:32.640
It's not easy.
01:24:32.800 --> 01:24:35.680
If we think it's easy, then we'll never catch up.
01:24:35.760 --> 01:24:39.119
So we need to realize we need to have additional push.
01:24:39.439 --> 01:24:42.079
This additional push needs to come from somewhere.
01:24:42.239 --> 01:24:48.159
Maybe together we can we can uh uh provide this push and then we can catch up.
01:24:48.479 --> 01:24:49.840
Yeah, yeah, that's good.
01:24:50.159 --> 01:24:53.760
Yeah, I think that's uh probably a good place to to conclude.
01:24:53.920 --> 01:24:55.119
Thank you so much, Juan.
01:24:55.439 --> 01:24:56.159
Oh, no problem.
01:24:56.399 --> 01:24:57.039
My pressure.
01:24:57.279 --> 01:24:59.439
Yeah, so great to have your wisdom on the show.
01:24:59.680 --> 01:25:01.520
And great to see you and great to talk to you.
01:25:01.760 --> 01:25:04.239
Yes, always great to see you too.
01:25:07.199 --> 01:25:13.680
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