WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.040
Hi everyone, today we're talking about why does my child struggle when someone else gets attention?
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:07.839
You're here with Laura Neal and Rachel Evans.
00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:16.320
Can you relate to these scenarios?
00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:27.039
So you're having a conversation with someone and suddenly your child's interrupting or their sibling gets praised and within seconds your child's having an argument with them.
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:31.920
This can feel like attention seeking, but what if your child is asking, do I still matter?
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:39.600
So today we are unpicking what might look like attention-seeking behaviour, and more importantly, what we can do that will actually help.
00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:46.479
So the types of things we're talking about is children who interrupt you whenever you're having a conversation with anybody else.
00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:50.399
You're on the phone and suddenly they desperately need something.
00:00:50.719 --> 00:01:00.640
You are interacting with their sibling and they are being increasingly silly or what seems like attention seeking because they want you to interact with them.
00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:05.599
It might be that you're congratulating another child and they don't deal with that at all.
00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:13.040
They find other people's birthdays really difficult, they find any interaction with another person really challenging.
00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:17.920
So children who, when the attention isn't on them, they really, really struggle.
00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:29.200
Yeah, and you can definitely see how parents and carers in those moments when those situations are happening time and time again, you can start to think, like, is this deliberate?
00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:29.519
Yeah.
00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:36.000
Why why are they spoiling maybe such a nice thing with a with a birthday party that's for somebody else?
00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:39.519
Or you just wanted two minutes to make this phone call.
00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:41.680
Why are they interrupting me now?
00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:47.519
So it can feel really difficult, can it, as a parent and carer, to like, why are they doing this?
00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:47.760
Yeah.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:49.439
Why are they are they doing this deliberate?
00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:54.079
The phone call and speaking to other adults when it's when we're here all the time as well.
00:01:54.159 --> 00:02:00.400
So as soon as you're on the phone, they're almost jumping at your at your knees to get off, get off the phone, get off the phone.
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:10.800
Or if you're I mean, I've had many experiences where I've gone uh to a home to talk to a parent and child is trying to sit in between us because they want to kind of get in the way of the conversation.
00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:11.120
Yeah.
00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:16.400
They don't deal very well with two adults having a conversation that they're not involved with.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:23.599
Yeah, I've definitely worked with children in the past where it's not even like the phone call that we can't even get to that point.
00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:47.840
It's literally if my eye contact is diverted or my body is oriented to uh not even towards the the the child, it's that split second where it almost feels oh that split second signals to the child, you know, my attention's not available anymore, and that's that's happened within you know, like I said, a split second.
00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:54.240
Like that's really hard to then be able to think, Oh, do I have to provide that much attention then?
00:02:54.319 --> 00:03:03.680
Yeah, you know, it can feel really exhausting and draining to to then have to provide that level, that quality of that attention constantly, yeah.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:04.960
What it feels.
00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:30.639
So I think this is where we often hear the phrase attention seeking, and we we hear that more in like a negative con in a connective context when a child is engaging in these behaviours like you've just uh described, and it's the yeah, the attention-seeking nature of it seems really difficult then for parents and carers to be able to manage day to day because it feels constant.
00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:38.000
But what if but what we need to try and do in those situations is think about what is what are those behaviours communicating to us?
00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:46.639
What does the child what's the child asking us to do in that moment to really understand what is it about the attention seeking that they actually want in?
00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:55.599
Yeah, because this doesn't come from from nowhere, and it might look like attention seeking, but actually it's fulfilling a much deeper need, usually.
00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:01.680
So we need to think about well, what is that need and what is it that they're trying to communicate, what is it that they need in that situation.
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:13.280
Yeah, and it makes us go back to thinking about what is within their trauma history and their previous experiences that w where these behaviours have really stemmed from.
00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:30.240
Because it could be that they've had a lack of attention or emotional comfort, emotional warmth in the past, and they're not really they've used other ways to be able to get that that attention or had no attention in in the past, you know.
00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.600
So so again, learning different ways to be able to get that.
00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:39.839
So it's understanding the the child's history and where that behaviour's maybe stemmed from.
00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:45.600
But what what's happening right now which might be maintaining that and making it continue?
00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:56.480
Because it it really signals to how their relationships have developed, so how their relationships with adults have developed, if they're like this around other children as well, how their relationships with their peers have developed.
00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.120
So it's all to do with that relational safety.
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.360
Yeah, and and what is that deeper need that they're trying to fulfil?
00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:04.720
Is it that connection?
00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:06.319
Is it that reassurance?
00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:07.600
Are they asking for help?
00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:12.639
Do they not know how to recruit attention appropriate appropriately?
00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:16.079
Is is it a bit of is it a skill they haven't really learnt?
00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:32.319
And that that's what we're trying to unpick in these situations when we do do go into homes, and like there's the situation you described, where you've gone into a home, you're having a consultation with a parent, the child is there, but they're constantly trying to get in between the the two of you.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:41.439
Like, I'm still here, like look at me, or that child that that can't tolerate attention being removed for that split second.
00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:44.240
We're really looking at those those two things.
00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:54.160
What is their trauma history telling us about this attention-seeking behaviour, but also what is happening within the environment right now, which is maintaining that.
00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:56.639
I think the point you made there, Rachel, is so important.
00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:05.199
So quite often we see that there's a focus either just on the trauma history or just on the present situation, but actually you need to look at them both.
00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:14.639
So we need to understand the trauma history and how that's fuelling what's happening today, but then also looking at the current situation and why is that continuing.
00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:22.079
It's only when you use the both do you come out with the right solution and the right the right process that can help the young person.
00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:27.600
Absolutely, and I feel like we come back to that point on every podcast, it's so relevant.
00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:38.160
But I I think for for this topic that we're talking about specifically, I think it's quite easy to maybe miss the trauma history aspect of the problem.
00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:38.639
Yeah.
00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.519
Because we're just seeing the behaviour play out.
00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:48.240
So it might be like I can't have two minutes because they're constantly at my leg, you know, tr or following me round.
00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:56.399
There's a birthday party, they can't even tolerate someone else getting that attention, or me just sitting with their sibling, spending some time with them.
00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:02.800
So I think the focus becomes a lot more on the behaviour that we're seeing play out in the moment.
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:20.160
And I think it's quite easy then for parents and carers to maybe miss this, take a step back and look at the child's trauma history to see how that is kind of impact, continuing to impact on them and why we're seeing this presentation then with these attention-seeking behaviours.
00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:20.639
Yeah.
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:31.360
So, yeah, the the two are absolutely essential to be able to then formulate how are we gonna support this child with this behaviour.
00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:37.199
So, one of the ways that we can think about this is thinking about the child's internal working model.
00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:46.720
The internal working model is the child's internal view of how they see the world, and that will be created by all of the experiences that they've had.
00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:56.160
So, for children who've experienced trauma, all of their traumatic experiences will be feeding into this internal working model where they then create a view of the world.
00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:59.360
So they might ask questions like, Am I important?
00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:01.519
Am I worth caring for?
00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:10.800
And if you're engaging with another child or another child is receiving interaction, or it's another child's birthday, those questions might come up more often.
00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:12.240
So, am I important?
00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:14.879
Am I worth having a birthday?
00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.560
They might be looking at the adults around them and saying, Well, why aren't they noticing me?
00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:19.759
They need to notice me.
00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:29.040
And then what you might see is that that behaviour increases that seems like attention-seeking behaviour, but it's all to do with this internal insecurity.
00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:31.279
Will you be there if if I need you?
00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:37.360
Is another is one that comes up all the time, I think, for uh for the children that we support who've experienced trauma.
00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:48.639
And if they can be seen, if they're seeking out that attention, no matter what way, they can be seen and they know the adults will be there to meet their needs, and a lot of it is about that.
00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:53.200
Yeah, and also their view of relationships as well.
00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:04.879
So our relationships okay well, so their their idea of relationships in the past may be that they come and go um with me, but also with friendships if they're unable to maintain them.
00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:17.200
That understanding of well, can somebody, can an adult care about me but also care about somebody else in those situations where they're really struggling with that shared attention?
00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:30.879
So it brings up quite a lot or a lot of questions for children where their previous experiences are now influencing some of these behaviours and and then it's presenting as as attention seeking.
00:09:31.200 --> 00:10:13.440
And what we do know is that children that have experienced childhood adversity, trauma in their past, they are more likely to have have these questions, have this, have this view of the world, and it's it's up to us to really unpick what what is it about their internal working model, what are those those questions that they might have, or those that that view of the world, especially when it comes to relationships and and about themselves as well, and though yeah, understanding what those questions are to then be able to formulate or understand, you know, where do we where do I support you know this child to help them share that attention or help them when attention is removed for a short space of time.
00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:20.720
So, Rachel, what can we do to actually help children who need a lot of interaction to help them feel safe and secure?
00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:26.720
Yeah, I I think the the first one being is just making connection and those times a bit more predictable.
00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:32.960
So having them planned in even with our language and how we're communicating with with children, I think this this comes in.
00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:49.840
So making sure that we are scheduling though scheduling those times where we can provide that attention even before they've even had the chance to engage in this attention seeking behaviour because we're providing that attention even b before it it can even begin.
00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:50.720
Yeah, you know.
00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:57.519
So that I I would say that's a that's a starting point and understanding what is it about that attention that they're really valuing.
00:10:58.000 --> 00:10:59.679
Is it the closeness?
00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:02.080
Is it the eye contact?
00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.360
Is it more of like the tactile interaction?
00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:14.720
So making sure that we're providing this as as predictable as as we can before they have a chance to engage in something a bit more problematic.
00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:15.200
Yeah.
00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:20.960
Another point I'd also bring up then is preparing for predictable, difficult moments.
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:23.039
Uh so we've mentioned birthdays already.
00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:27.840
If we know birthday parties are difficult, that's a predictable, difficult moment.
00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:29.279
We know that it's going to happen.
00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:34.639
So be really prepared for that, thinking about what I can do before the birthday party to prepare them.
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:39.679
What can I make sure I do at the birthday party to make sure they cope a little bit better with it?
00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:49.279
And it might be taking them away for short periods during the party to give them that one-to-one interaction so that then they cope a little bit better when they're with their peer group.
00:11:49.519 --> 00:12:10.080
It might not be for other children, you've got to be, I think, quite bespoke in what you're doing for your individual child in these circumstances, but really preparing for those difficult moments that can be predictable can be really helpful because if you're expecting it to be difficult and you prepare for it, it will be a lot less difficult than it could be if you didn't.
00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:11.600
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:24.960
What I would also add as a tip or something else to be thinking about is what we can be teaching your child where they can be asking for that attention a little bit more appropriate.
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:33.919
So looking at this from a bit of a teaching point of view and a skill building point of view, how can we teach them how to get this attention a little bit more appropriately?
00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:41.039
So that might be teaching them to ask for help or even just say ma'am or just call your name.
00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:53.360
That might be a skill that they they need to be taught, and we can we can teach that quite quite easily through through different opportunities that we can create throughout the day.
00:12:53.519 --> 00:13:02.720
But thinking, is it a skill, is this a skill that my child needs support with and and then teaching them different ways in which they can get that attention?
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:11.039
I think that's such a good point because I think we often assume that children can do things that like we'll often hear that well, they can just call me if they want me.
00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:11.519
Yeah.
00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:22.960
But children don't, because they don't, or the children who we work with who've experienced trauma don't, because they don't understand that you have to actually call a parent or call a carer uh to be able to get their interaction.
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:31.759
So then they end up jumping on furniture or pulling at your leg or shouting when you're on the phone because they're not sure how to get that interaction.
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:41.919
Because that's what their previous experiences have taught them, and sometimes it's like I can't see my parent or carer, so I'm not gonna shout their name, that's not what I what I do.
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:47.440
I'm just gonna engage in this other different behaviour because I know they'll deck because that'll work, yeah.
00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:47.919
Yeah.
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:53.120
So the next tip then would be starting small with any amount of waiting time.
00:13:53.279 --> 00:14:01.840
So the one I always think about because it comes up so often, is the parent is on the phone, and the child will not leave them alone even to be on the phone.
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:10.080
If you if that's your child, start really small with the amount of time that you expect them uh to be able to wait for you to be on the phone.
00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:14.799
Don't go into a full half-hour blown conversation and expect them to be able to wait.
00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:25.840
30 seconds to a minute is going to be enough time initially uh to support them to wait while you're on the phone and then you give them interaction, you build that up over time, but always start small.
00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:27.120
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:32.000
And and link to that as well is just noticing when they're able to cope successfully.
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:37.120
So, like you said, starting with that 30 seconds to one minute for that waiting example.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:53.360
Um, but just start to see like how how long can they spend being by themselves, maybe playing independently or being with a sibling without things kind of erupting, without your attention kind of being there, and start with that because we can that's a really good start.
00:14:53.519 --> 00:15:01.200
If if we can notice that there's two minutes, three minutes, five, what whatever the time is, we can then start to build on that.
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:09.919
We know the child has the skill in in su in some shape or form, and then we can build on that over time.
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:25.440
But it's really important to know where your starting point is, know when they're able to cope, and then we're when we that it we're then able to increase that time gradually and provide as much praise and as re and reinforcement as possible and when they are more successful.
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:31.840
Yeah, and I I think a really important point as well is to know that this is what is needed for secure relationships.
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:39.600
So I'll hear often that well they're they need a lot of interaction now, but when they've developed a more secure relationship, they won't need as much.
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.200
The big question is how are we developing that secure relationship?
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:58.480
Because these experiences where they're gradually able to not need your cons continuous interaction are what actually helps them feel more secure because they can see uh mum or dad, parent or carer is gonna come back to me.
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:03.360
They're going to always be there, even though they might not be available to me 24-7.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:05.840
So we're building that secure relationship.
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:19.759
Yeah, and they the what we've discussed today the foundations really to be able to provide trauma-informed care is uh having that understanding that my child's not doing this deliberately, they're trying to commun communicate something to me.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:21.279
How do I understand that?
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:46.879
Let's look back at their trauma history, let's look at the at the the situation, the behaviour that's happening and it's playing out in front of us to then inform how we you know what do I need to do as as a parent and carer to to to provide support for my child so they're able to, like you said, start to develop more of those secure attachments, feel a bit more safe and secure within relationships, within the home, and and then building on that.
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.080
But they are the foundations to provide in trauma and phone care.
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:50.320
Yeah.
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:53.039
So we have a question from a carer.
00:16:53.200 --> 00:17:06.799
She asks, I when I praise one of my children, my other child immediately starts showing off, interrupting, or sometimes starts saying horrible things to to the other child.
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:08.640
How should she be responding?
00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:09.359
Yeah.
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:15.039
So I I think I think one of the first points with this is this happens with all children.
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:17.440
It's not just children who've experienced trauma.
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:30.640
If you have siblings or you have two children that are living in the same environment, or maybe two children within a school environment, and you praise one of them, quite rightly praise one of them, the other one can feel a little bit put out.
00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:35.440
So you will get behaviours like this from any child, not just children who've experienced trauma.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:44.799
The difference with children who've experienced trauma is that their responses are much more magnified because they can often see it as an attack on them as a person.
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:49.920
If they're doing well, it means I'm not good enough, which we really don't want.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:53.279
So it that doesn't mean stop praising the other child.
00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:55.200
You still need to praise that child.
00:17:55.359 --> 00:18:08.640
But what we need to do is to support the child that's struggling with that to understand that other children can be praised, and it doesn't mean that they're any they're any less or they're not doing well enough.
00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:12.720
So what I would do is preempting those difficult situations.
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:18.960
So if I know that one of my children is going to have a lot of praise, I'm gonna prepare the other child.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:29.599
I might prepare to praise the other child after I've provided the praise to the first child, but I would also prepare them that actually they've been doing really well at the moment.
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:35.039
So if I'm saying well done, if I'm telling them they've done a good job, that's a good thing.
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:36.799
What can you do in that situation?
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:38.000
Can you join in with me?
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:56.000
Can we praise them together and really set in that situation for success, but then also making sure that the child that struggles gets a lot of praise, and sometimes you can give that child praise for praising the child that you want to receive the praise in the first place, so you can kind of build it in together.
00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:01.519
But I would say the big thing here is to prepare and recognise that they're not suddenly going to get over it.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:03.519
We've got to coach them through it.
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:14.799
Yeah, and it go goes back like everything that you've just shared there, uh preventing those internal thoughts that the child might have, like I'm not good enough.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:18.000
Yeah, she must prefer him over me.
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:23.200
What you know, what do I do to be able to get to get some of that?
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:30.799
So we just don't want to do anything that that that's gonna cause those thoughts for for that child, isn't it?
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:36.480
Some key takeaways from today's podcast: make connection as predictable as possible.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:40.240
Prepare for those predictable, really difficult moments.
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:50.480
Make sure we're using those experiences as teaching experiences where we can teach our young people uh to be able to cope when they don't have full attention on them.
00:19:50.720 --> 00:20:01.759
Start really small if you're integrating any waiting time and notice when they cope successfully and give them lots of encouragement and praise during those situations.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.640
So that brings us to the end of our podcast.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.240
We hope that you found the information as useful as possible.
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:14.240
If you want some more information about trauma informed care in practice, then subscribe to Tribe Talk.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.040
Hi everyone, today we're talking about why does my child struggle when someone else gets attention?
00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:07.839
You're here with Laura Neal and Rachel Evans.
00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:16.320
Can you relate to these scenarios?
00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:27.039
So you're having a conversation with someone and suddenly your child's interrupting or their sibling gets praised and within seconds your child's having an argument with them.
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:31.920
This can feel like attention seeking, but what if your child is asking, do I still matter?
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:39.600
So today we are unpicking what might look like attention-seeking behaviour, and more importantly, what we can do that will actually help.
00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:46.479
So the types of things we're talking about is children who interrupt you whenever you're having a conversation with anybody else.
00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:50.399
You're on the phone and suddenly they desperately need something.
00:00:50.719 --> 00:01:00.640
You are interacting with their sibling and they are being increasingly silly or what seems like attention seeking because they want you to interact with them.
00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:05.599
It might be that you're congratulating another child and they don't deal with that at all.
00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:13.040
They find other people's birthdays really difficult, they find any interaction with another person really challenging.
00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:17.920
So children who, when the attention isn't on them, they really, really struggle.
00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:29.200
Yeah, and you can definitely see how parents and carers in those moments when those situations are happening time and time again, you can start to think, like, is this deliberate?
00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:29.519
Yeah.
00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:36.000
Why why are they spoiling maybe such a nice thing with a with a birthday party that's for somebody else?
00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:39.519
Or you just wanted two minutes to make this phone call.
00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:41.680
Why are they interrupting me now?
00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:47.519
So it can feel really difficult, can it, as a parent and carer, to like, why are they doing this?
00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:47.760
Yeah.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:49.439
Why are they are they doing this deliberate?
00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:54.079
The phone call and speaking to other adults when it's when we're here all the time as well.
00:01:54.159 --> 00:02:00.400
So as soon as you're on the phone, they're almost jumping at your at your knees to get off, get off the phone, get off the phone.
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:10.800
Or if you're I mean, I've had many experiences where I've gone uh to a home to talk to a parent and child is trying to sit in between us because they want to kind of get in the way of the conversation.
00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:11.120
Yeah.
00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:16.400
They don't deal very well with two adults having a conversation that they're not involved with.
00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:23.599
Yeah, I've definitely worked with children in the past where it's not even like the phone call that we can't even get to that point.
00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:47.840
It's literally if my eye contact is diverted or my body is oriented to uh not even towards the the the child, it's that split second where it almost feels oh that split second signals to the child, you know, my attention's not available anymore, and that's that's happened within you know, like I said, a split second.
00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:54.240
Like that's really hard to then be able to think, Oh, do I have to provide that much attention then?
00:02:54.319 --> 00:03:03.680
Yeah, you know, it can feel really exhausting and draining to to then have to provide that level, that quality of that attention constantly, yeah.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:04.960
What it feels.
00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:30.639
So I think this is where we often hear the phrase attention seeking, and we we hear that more in like a negative con in a connective context when a child is engaging in these behaviours like you've just uh described, and it's the yeah, the attention-seeking nature of it seems really difficult then for parents and carers to be able to manage day to day because it feels constant.
00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:38.000
But what if but what we need to try and do in those situations is think about what is what are those behaviours communicating to us?
00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:46.639
What does the child what's the child asking us to do in that moment to really understand what is it about the attention seeking that they actually want in?
00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:55.599
Yeah, because this doesn't come from from nowhere, and it might look like attention seeking, but actually it's fulfilling a much deeper need, usually.
00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:01.680
So we need to think about well, what is that need and what is it that they're trying to communicate, what is it that they need in that situation.
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:13.280
Yeah, and it makes us go back to thinking about what is within their trauma history and their previous experiences that w where these behaviours have really stemmed from.
00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:30.240
Because it could be that they've had a lack of attention or emotional comfort, emotional warmth in the past, and they're not really they've used other ways to be able to get that that attention or had no attention in in the past, you know.
00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.600
So so again, learning different ways to be able to get that.
00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:39.839
So it's understanding the the child's history and where that behaviour's maybe stemmed from.
00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:45.600
But what what's happening right now which might be maintaining that and making it continue?
00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:56.480
Because it it really signals to how their relationships have developed, so how their relationships with adults have developed, if they're like this around other children as well, how their relationships with their peers have developed.
00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.120
So it's all to do with that relational safety.
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:03.360
Yeah, and and what is that deeper need that they're trying to fulfil?
00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:04.720
Is it that connection?
00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:06.319
Is it that reassurance?
00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:07.600
Are they asking for help?
00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:12.639
Do they not know how to recruit attention appropriate appropriately?
00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:16.079
Is is it a bit of is it a skill they haven't really learnt?
00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:32.319
And that that's what we're trying to unpick in these situations when we do do go into homes, and like there's the situation you described, where you've gone into a home, you're having a consultation with a parent, the child is there, but they're constantly trying to get in between the the two of you.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:41.439
Like, I'm still here, like look at me, or that child that that can't tolerate attention being removed for that split second.
00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:44.240
We're really looking at those those two things.
00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:54.160
What is their trauma history telling us about this attention-seeking behaviour, but also what is happening within the environment right now, which is maintaining that.
00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:56.639
I think the point you made there, Rachel, is so important.
00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:05.199
So quite often we see that there's a focus either just on the trauma history or just on the present situation, but actually you need to look at them both.
00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:14.639
So we need to understand the trauma history and how that's fuelling what's happening today, but then also looking at the current situation and why is that continuing.
00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:22.079
It's only when you use the both do you come out with the right solution and the right the right process that can help the young person.
00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:27.600
Absolutely, and I feel like we come back to that point on every podcast, it's so relevant.
00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:38.160
But I I think for for this topic that we're talking about specifically, I think it's quite easy to maybe miss the trauma history aspect of the problem.
00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:38.639
Yeah.
00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.519
Because we're just seeing the behaviour play out.
00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:48.240
So it might be like I can't have two minutes because they're constantly at my leg, you know, tr or following me round.
00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:56.399
There's a birthday party, they can't even tolerate someone else getting that attention, or me just sitting with their sibling, spending some time with them.
00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:02.800
So I think the focus becomes a lot more on the behaviour that we're seeing play out in the moment.
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:20.160
And I think it's quite easy then for parents and carers to maybe miss this, take a step back and look at the child's trauma history to see how that is kind of impact, continuing to impact on them and why we're seeing this presentation then with these attention-seeking behaviours.
00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:20.639
Yeah.
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:31.360
So, yeah, the the two are absolutely essential to be able to then formulate how are we gonna support this child with this behaviour.
00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:37.199
So, one of the ways that we can think about this is thinking about the child's internal working model.
00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:46.720
The internal working model is the child's internal view of how they see the world, and that will be created by all of the experiences that they've had.
00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:56.160
So, for children who've experienced trauma, all of their traumatic experiences will be feeding into this internal working model where they then create a view of the world.
00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:59.360
So they might ask questions like, Am I important?
00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:01.519
Am I worth caring for?
00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:10.800
And if you're engaging with another child or another child is receiving interaction, or it's another child's birthday, those questions might come up more often.
00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:12.240
So, am I important?
00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:14.879
Am I worth having a birthday?
00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.560
They might be looking at the adults around them and saying, Well, why aren't they noticing me?
00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:19.759
They need to notice me.
00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:29.040
And then what you might see is that that behaviour increases that seems like attention-seeking behaviour, but it's all to do with this internal insecurity.
00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:31.279
Will you be there if if I need you?
00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:37.360
Is another is one that comes up all the time, I think, for uh for the children that we support who've experienced trauma.
00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:48.639
And if they can be seen, if they're seeking out that attention, no matter what way, they can be seen and they know the adults will be there to meet their needs, and a lot of it is about that.
00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:53.200
Yeah, and also their view of relationships as well.
00:08:53.440 --> 00:09:04.879
So our relationships okay well, so their their idea of relationships in the past may be that they come and go um with me, but also with friendships if they're unable to maintain them.
00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:17.200
That understanding of well, can somebody, can an adult care about me but also care about somebody else in those situations where they're really struggling with that shared attention?
00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:30.879
So it brings up quite a lot or a lot of questions for children where their previous experiences are now influencing some of these behaviours and and then it's presenting as as attention seeking.
00:09:31.200 --> 00:10:13.440
And what we do know is that children that have experienced childhood adversity, trauma in their past, they are more likely to have have these questions, have this, have this view of the world, and it's it's up to us to really unpick what what is it about their internal working model, what are those those questions that they might have, or those that that view of the world, especially when it comes to relationships and and about themselves as well, and though yeah, understanding what those questions are to then be able to formulate or understand, you know, where do we where do I support you know this child to help them share that attention or help them when attention is removed for a short space of time.
00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:20.720
So, Rachel, what can we do to actually help children who need a lot of interaction to help them feel safe and secure?
00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:26.720
Yeah, I I think the the first one being is just making connection and those times a bit more predictable.
00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:32.960
So having them planned in even with our language and how we're communicating with with children, I think this this comes in.
00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:49.840
So making sure that we are scheduling though scheduling those times where we can provide that attention even before they've even had the chance to engage in this attention seeking behaviour because we're providing that attention even b before it it can even begin.
00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:50.720
Yeah, you know.
00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:57.519
So that I I would say that's a that's a starting point and understanding what is it about that attention that they're really valuing.
00:10:58.000 --> 00:10:59.679
Is it the closeness?
00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:02.080
Is it the eye contact?
00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:05.360
Is it more of like the tactile interaction?
00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:14.720
So making sure that we're providing this as as predictable as as we can before they have a chance to engage in something a bit more problematic.
00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:15.200
Yeah.
00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:20.960
Another point I'd also bring up then is preparing for predictable, difficult moments.
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:23.039
Uh so we've mentioned birthdays already.
00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:27.840
If we know birthday parties are difficult, that's a predictable, difficult moment.
00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:29.279
We know that it's going to happen.
00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:34.639
So be really prepared for that, thinking about what I can do before the birthday party to prepare them.
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:39.679
What can I make sure I do at the birthday party to make sure they cope a little bit better with it?
00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:49.279
And it might be taking them away for short periods during the party to give them that one-to-one interaction so that then they cope a little bit better when they're with their peer group.
00:11:49.519 --> 00:12:10.080
It might not be for other children, you've got to be, I think, quite bespoke in what you're doing for your individual child in these circumstances, but really preparing for those difficult moments that can be predictable can be really helpful because if you're expecting it to be difficult and you prepare for it, it will be a lot less difficult than it could be if you didn't.
00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:11.600
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:24.960
What I would also add as a tip or something else to be thinking about is what we can be teaching your child where they can be asking for that attention a little bit more appropriate.
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:33.919
So looking at this from a bit of a teaching point of view and a skill building point of view, how can we teach them how to get this attention a little bit more appropriately?
00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:41.039
So that might be teaching them to ask for help or even just say ma'am or just call your name.
00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:53.360
That might be a skill that they they need to be taught, and we can we can teach that quite quite easily through through different opportunities that we can create throughout the day.
00:12:53.519 --> 00:13:02.720
But thinking, is it a skill, is this a skill that my child needs support with and and then teaching them different ways in which they can get that attention?
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:11.039
I think that's such a good point because I think we often assume that children can do things that like we'll often hear that well, they can just call me if they want me.
00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:11.519
Yeah.
00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:22.960
But children don't, because they don't, or the children who we work with who've experienced trauma don't, because they don't understand that you have to actually call a parent or call a carer uh to be able to get their interaction.
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:31.759
So then they end up jumping on furniture or pulling at your leg or shouting when you're on the phone because they're not sure how to get that interaction.
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:41.919
Because that's what their previous experiences have taught them, and sometimes it's like I can't see my parent or carer, so I'm not gonna shout their name, that's not what I what I do.
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:47.440
I'm just gonna engage in this other different behaviour because I know they'll deck because that'll work, yeah.
00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:47.919
Yeah.
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:53.120
So the next tip then would be starting small with any amount of waiting time.
00:13:53.279 --> 00:14:01.840
So the one I always think about because it comes up so often, is the parent is on the phone, and the child will not leave them alone even to be on the phone.
00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:10.080
If you if that's your child, start really small with the amount of time that you expect them uh to be able to wait for you to be on the phone.
00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:14.799
Don't go into a full half-hour blown conversation and expect them to be able to wait.
00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:25.840
30 seconds to a minute is going to be enough time initially uh to support them to wait while you're on the phone and then you give them interaction, you build that up over time, but always start small.
00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:27.120
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:32.000
And and link to that as well is just noticing when they're able to cope successfully.
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:37.120
So, like you said, starting with that 30 seconds to one minute for that waiting example.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:53.360
Um, but just start to see like how how long can they spend being by themselves, maybe playing independently or being with a sibling without things kind of erupting, without your attention kind of being there, and start with that because we can that's a really good start.
00:14:53.519 --> 00:15:01.200
If if we can notice that there's two minutes, three minutes, five, what whatever the time is, we can then start to build on that.
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:09.919
We know the child has the skill in in su in some shape or form, and then we can build on that over time.
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:25.440
But it's really important to know where your starting point is, know when they're able to cope, and then we're when we that it we're then able to increase that time gradually and provide as much praise and as re and reinforcement as possible and when they are more successful.
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:31.840
Yeah, and I I think a really important point as well is to know that this is what is needed for secure relationships.
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:39.600
So I'll hear often that well they're they need a lot of interaction now, but when they've developed a more secure relationship, they won't need as much.
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.200
The big question is how are we developing that secure relationship?
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:58.480
Because these experiences where they're gradually able to not need your cons continuous interaction are what actually helps them feel more secure because they can see uh mum or dad, parent or carer is gonna come back to me.
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:03.360
They're going to always be there, even though they might not be available to me 24-7.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:05.840
So we're building that secure relationship.
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:19.759
Yeah, and they the what we've discussed today the foundations really to be able to provide trauma-informed care is uh having that understanding that my child's not doing this deliberately, they're trying to commun communicate something to me.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:21.279
How do I understand that?
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:46.879
Let's look back at their trauma history, let's look at the at the the situation, the behaviour that's happening and it's playing out in front of us to then inform how we you know what do I need to do as as a parent and carer to to to provide support for my child so they're able to, like you said, start to develop more of those secure attachments, feel a bit more safe and secure within relationships, within the home, and and then building on that.
00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:50.080
But they are the foundations to provide in trauma and phone care.
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:50.320
Yeah.
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:53.039
So we have a question from a carer.
00:16:53.200 --> 00:17:06.799
She asks, I when I praise one of my children, my other child immediately starts showing off, interrupting, or sometimes starts saying horrible things to to the other child.
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:08.640
How should she be responding?
00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:09.359
Yeah.
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:15.039
So I I think I think one of the first points with this is this happens with all children.
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:17.440
It's not just children who've experienced trauma.
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:30.640
If you have siblings or you have two children that are living in the same environment, or maybe two children within a school environment, and you praise one of them, quite rightly praise one of them, the other one can feel a little bit put out.
00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:35.440
So you will get behaviours like this from any child, not just children who've experienced trauma.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:44.799
The difference with children who've experienced trauma is that their responses are much more magnified because they can often see it as an attack on them as a person.
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:49.920
If they're doing well, it means I'm not good enough, which we really don't want.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:53.279
So it that doesn't mean stop praising the other child.
00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:55.200
You still need to praise that child.
00:17:55.359 --> 00:18:08.640
But what we need to do is to support the child that's struggling with that to understand that other children can be praised, and it doesn't mean that they're any they're any less or they're not doing well enough.
00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:12.720
So what I would do is preempting those difficult situations.
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:18.960
So if I know that one of my children is going to have a lot of praise, I'm gonna prepare the other child.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:29.599
I might prepare to praise the other child after I've provided the praise to the first child, but I would also prepare them that actually they've been doing really well at the moment.
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:35.039
So if I'm saying well done, if I'm telling them they've done a good job, that's a good thing.
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:36.799
What can you do in that situation?
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:38.000
Can you join in with me?
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:56.000
Can we praise them together and really set in that situation for success, but then also making sure that the child that struggles gets a lot of praise, and sometimes you can give that child praise for praising the child that you want to receive the praise in the first place, so you can kind of build it in together.
00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:01.519
But I would say the big thing here is to prepare and recognise that they're not suddenly going to get over it.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:03.519
We've got to coach them through it.
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:14.799
Yeah, and it go goes back like everything that you've just shared there, uh preventing those internal thoughts that the child might have, like I'm not good enough.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:18.000
Yeah, she must prefer him over me.
00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:23.200
What you know, what do I do to be able to get to get some of that?
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:30.799
So we just don't want to do anything that that that's gonna cause those thoughts for for that child, isn't it?
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:36.480
Some key takeaways from today's podcast: make connection as predictable as possible.
00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:40.240
Prepare for those predictable, really difficult moments.
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:50.480
Make sure we're using those experiences as teaching experiences where we can teach our young people uh to be able to cope when they don't have full attention on them.
00:19:50.720 --> 00:20:01.759
Start really small if you're integrating any waiting time and notice when they cope successfully and give them lots of encouragement and praise during those situations.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:04.640
So that brings us to the end of our podcast.
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.240
We hope that you found the information as useful as possible.
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:14.240
If you want some more information about trauma informed care in practice, then subscribe to Tribe Talk.
