Tucker:
00:09Welcome to THRIVERS. Impact driven leadership for the next normal. I am your host Tucker Wannamaker the CEO of THRIVE IMPACT. And if you're listening to this you're probably someone who doesn't just want to do nice things in the world but you want to create positive change in people's lives and not burnout while doing it. Well how do you do that? Well that's our mission. To redefine what normal is for workplace leadership to be about co creating impact from the inside out. We believe that burnout is the enemy of creating positive change, and we wanna connect you with impact driven leaders and ideas so that you can learn to thrive in today's landscape. I'm joined as usual by my wonderful co host, Sarah Fanslau, our Chief of Impact. Sarah, good to be with you on the show today.
Sarah:
00:53Great to be here.
Tucker:
00:56And, we've had a doozy of a week. Would you say?
Sarah:
00:59I think it's the month. No. It was last month. It's the whole...
Tucker:
01:02A year. It's been a doozy of a year. We have been stepping into our 10x selves, and we're like, woah. This is a learning curve a little bit.
Sarah:
01:09Exhausting. I'm not gonna lie.
Sarah:
01:10Listened to our our last podcast that we just came out with about or is our whole is our whole a team as we call them, talking about our 10 x journey. I encourage you all to listen to it if you're an organization who is yearning for the next normal of your own, we went through a process that was not exactly clear and, but it was actually really supportive of where we're going. But with that, it's been coming learning, you know, as as consistently keeps coming. But today, we have a really important topic here that, I will not say I'm excited about. I will not say because I'm because it is it is an area of of of growth for me.
Tucker:
01:52I just wanna be honest about this, but I also have seen the power of how important this is. Mhmm. And, Sarah, especially in in watching you and your leadership and how you work, you have brought such an important lens to, how we all can actually work together and not just feel like we belong to something, but we're actually working towards something together that matters. And and and so today's topic is task cohesion. And I wanna let you, Sarah, just kind of tell us a little bit about what we're talking about here and why is this an important topic that I'm grateful that, we have a subject matter expert on the call, AKA not me, to be able to share a little bit more about what this is and why it's important.
Tucker:
02:43So tell us what it is first, Sarah.
Sarah:
02:44Yeah. Well, I wouldn't call myself an expert in it yet, but, task cohesion is something that, you know, I think I felt before I had the words to put to it and, a meta analysis, which which is basically analysis of all of these different types of studies recently came out looking at task cohesion, and I started to dive a little bit into it. And so, really, what it is, it's an aspect of team functioning in essence. And so it's kind of this kind of a shared attraction, bonding, or sense of pride among team members that can be driven by social or task based elements that are associated with team membership. And all of this is really we'll put the link to the study in the show notes.
Sarah:
03:34But really, it's it's about team functioning. And I think what's interesting here is often when people used to think about team cohesion and team functioning, it was primarily about social belonging. And what this meta analysis has found and other research into this space has found is that actually task cohesion is in some places and in some ways even more important than social cohesion, which is fascinating.
Tucker:
04:06Well, in in I'm curious in, like, a simple way of thinking about it. It's, do I know what my role is and the things that I need to do that that work together with others Yeah. As well. Right?
Sarah:
04:19Yeah.
Tucker:
04:20Sort of the alignment of our strengths and our tasks and how they coordinate together to work towards something that matters.
Sarah:
04:27Yeah. Yes. This study, they, they describe it as a shared commitment to task, a shared commitment to basically the things you wanna get done together.
Tucker:
04:39Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw this quote, and, Sarah, I think I I when you were sharing with me about this and by the way, I actually would say you are an expert in the practice of it.
Tucker:
04:51Mhmm. Maybe you're noticing all the research that's speaking to to what's there, and the research is validating what I have seen you do within THRIVE IMPACT and within these organizations we work with. That but so that's why I just wanna put that out there that you are an expert in that you are a you are a practitioner of doing this
Sarah:
05:11Yeah. Yeah.
Tucker:
05:12On an ongoing basis and have a lot of skill in it. So there you go. I just wanna throw that out there
Sarah:
05:18Thank you. Thank you.
Tucker:
05:18Because it's true. But there was this quote that I saw in the Exchange community that I'm in that I've mentioned bajillion times, so I won't say who that is. But, you can go look them up, exchangeapproach.com. But there was a great quote by a guy named Brian Solas that said, community is much more than belonging to something. It's about doing something together that makes belonging matter.
Sarah:
05:40Yeah. I mean, that's it in a nutshell. That is task cohesion, the importance of it in a nutshell. Yeah.
Tucker:
05:46Well, and Sarah, I'm curious just to give some, like, for examples here, some tangible examples, like, where have you seen this happen, maybe even in Thryv or within organizations that we've worked with? Like, do you have some examples that that can help our listeners, like, grab on to what what is the feeling of task cohesion? You know? Or, like, what is an example of when it is happening?
Sarah:
06:10Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I think that we see a lack of this probably more than we see, the the existence of this, honestly. I don't know if you agree.
Tucker:
06:21Yeah probably.
Sarah:
06:23And you know what? I will also just say it's not just nonprofits. Right? I have a lot of folks I know who work in big corporate environments, and there is at the root of so many problems that folks talk about at their work is a lack of direction, of knowing, ultimately, what folks are working towards together. And that's why it's like this commitment part, that commitment or the definition, I think is so important because it is a shared commitment or agreement to work towards the same thing together.
Sarah:
06:56And so, you know, for example, we worked with an organization, not too long ago, you know, to do a kind of a 3 hour refresh of a strategic plan. And we've actually talked about this on the podcast. Yeah. And one of the things, you know, of course we asked at the start of that engagement, hey, let's see your strategic plan so that we can work from where you're at. And what we realized in there was that there were a lot of nice words about what they wanted to do, but no tangible measures that would help folks align on what they needed to do.
Sarah:
07:31And this I think is the thing we see most often when it comes to tech task cohesion is folks think they have aligned on a goal, but because there's no measurement of it, actually, they're not aligned at all. So I'll give you an example. You know, one I think was around, it was around kind of increasing or improving the number of folks accessing services. It was about it was about improving services. And when we asked the group to brainstorm around what this might look like, we got, like, 15 different types of answers.
Sarah:
08:04Right? Increase the number of LGBTQI folks we're working with, expand to rural populations, you know, bring therapy services in house. And so when you started to look at the examples of what different folks' mind went to when we asked, how would you measure improving your services? All of a sudden, it got really clear that nobody was on the same page about what that meant.
Tucker:
08:28Yes.
Sarah:
08:29Because it meant totally different things to every person in the room based on the chair they that they sent in. And I wanna note that that divergence is not uncommon, and in fact, it's great. So the problem isn't the difference of opinion. It's the fact that most of the time, we're not making it explicit, and then from making it explicit, creating a shared commitment to what exactly and explicitly that means for us together.
Tucker:
08:56That's so powerful, Sarah. And by the way, if you are curious about which podcast that was, I literally actually just had it up earlier and it is the one that's called operationalizing your goals, connecting strategy and activity. So we did a podcast on that. Looks like it was back in September, but that's what it's called. So if you wanna go to our podcast, website, thriveimpact.org/podcast, you can go scroll down a little bit and look for operationalizing your goals.
Tucker:
09:23And that's the one where we went through the actually, the agenda of the sequence that we took that this particular organization through Yeah. To be able to help them to do this. Yep. In a workshop form. But, Sarah, you always use an example whenever we're in one of these workshops that I I appreciate because it's really accessible, which is around exercise.
Tucker:
09:42Share share a little bit about how you how you bring that forward to help us all understand because you hit you just hit it with what your example was. But I love how you bring it so forward and and make it so accessible with your exercise example. How do you typically bring that out Yeah. To help people understand this?
Sarah:
09:58Well, so I think it's interesting. The first thing is we often use a logic model right at the start of these conversations to help folks visually see the connection between resources, activities, which are things we do outputs, which are a measure of activities outcomes, which is some positive change and impact, which is that longer term positive change. And, so, you know, we often ask folks to reflect on as you think about, you know, the goals at your organization, where do you think y'all are at? Are you doing activities? Are you in outputs?
Sarah:
10:31Are you outcomes? And it's interesting to see what folks think. And then I'll say, so let's use an example here. Let's say our goal is to get healthy. How would you measure that?
Sarah:
10:41How would you know if you got healthy? Pop it up in the chat and people go eat healthy, lose £10, start to meditate, like
Tucker:
10:51all over the place. Yeah.
Sarah:
10:52All over the place. And then I say, so what do you notice about all these things up in the chat? And usually folks, you know, have different answers. No one yet has said what I'm really looking for. And I say, what I noticed is that they're all different things.
Sarah:
11:07Right?
Tucker:
11:08Yeah. Nobody can see it either.
Sarah:
11:09Nobody sees it.
Tucker:
11:10In all the times we've done that, nobody's like
Sarah:
11:12Nobody's ever seen it.
Tucker:
11:13Oh, those are nice ways to get healthy.
Sarah:
11:15Yeah. Great.
Tucker:
11:16Because you notice the whole
Sarah:
11:18yeah. And so then I'd say, so think about what the resources you need and the things you would do if you wanted to lose £10 versus improve your meditation. Right? They're totally
Tucker:
11:29Totally different.
Sarah:
11:30Different, totally different. And then the light bulbs start to go on, right? Oh, you're right. If we haven't defined and agreed on that measurable goal, the things we're doing to get to that may be totally misaligned with each other, even though we're agreeing at a higher level on what we wanna do.
Tucker:
11:51Yeah. Well, and so, I mean, Sarah, what are the pains that, and or the issues that are really facing impact driven leaders in terms of this? Like, why why does this happen so much? Because I'm with you. Like, most of us feel the lack of task cohesion more than the existence of task cohesion.
Sarah:
12:12Yeah.
Tucker:
12:12Why is this such a prevalent problem and challenge?
Sarah:
12:15Yeah. Well, one great thing that this meta analysis pointed out that made a lot of sense to me was that it's really particularly hard in this modern landscape and when folks are likely to be members of multiple teams and potentially with one team for shorter periods of time. Right. And they're spending less face to face time. So what we always talked about and what you talk about Tucker is the speed of change is actually really impacting this idea of team functioning because no longer are we in the face to face environment that used to create more social cohesion and potentially even group pride, which is another part of, team functioning.
Sarah:
13:07And so it's in this environment that the research shows that, you know, a greater emphasis on kind of task based elements of the team are going to be even more important, because the time and opportunity for social cohesion is more limited. So I was like, oh, that makes so much sense. Right? If we're not all together, some of these social pieces are going away, but that doesn't mean that team functioning has to suffer if we can get aligned on what we're doing together. Yeah.
Sarah:
13:37And what we're doing together. And I know you've seen this too. This yeah.
Tucker:
13:43Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I I mean, I think we're we're a totally remote staff. Like, right? You're in Maine.
Tucker:
13:48I'm in Colorado. You know? Allen's in Italy. Aaron's in Western Colorado. I mean, like, Julie's here in Colorado because she's my wife, which is great.
Tucker:
13:57You know? And Niko's in Austin, you know, Megan's in West Virginia. We're like all over the place, you know, Ria's in the Philippines. I mean, we've got people literally all over the world. And I was just trying to think about what are the ways that we've, what are what are the ways that we've been figuring this out in a in a fully remote experience?
Sarah:
14:18Yeah.
Tucker:
14:20And, you know, and some of the pains I think that we had before, like, we've wrestled around with having social cohesion Yeah. And task cohesion because to me, it's a both end. It's not we're gonna pick 1.
Sarah:
14:32That's right. Yeah.
Tucker:
14:33Like, it has to be a both end. And some people, I think in our binary way of thinking, I think this is actually one of the pains is that we tend to have a binary way of thinking and thinking that if it's just just task cohesion, then we're good. Or if it's just social cohesion, then it's good. Yeah. But it's actually a both and.
Tucker:
14:49It's a collective of both of those coming together where I do have a sense of belonging, but I also have a sense of my role and my specifically, what it is that I ought to be doing or in co creating what that is. So I just keep thinking about some of the rhythms that we've been trying and learning. But to your point around the speed of change, I mean, we've hit on this a lot about being learning organizations, is we need to constantly, you know, and we do this on a monthly basis at our in our a team meetings. We do monthly reports on and the reports are on, how the how the month go compared to our quarterly big rocks that we do. Right?
Tucker:
15:28We do constant rhythms of learning Yeah. To be able to continue to realign and say and and say like, hey, I'm struggling with this or, hey, I had this dependency or like or hey, I need your support. And and I think that that's been a thing that I actually want us to grow, continually grow better in, in our work. And I think that one of the pains is that people don't have rhythms to be able
Sarah:
15:52Yeah.
Tucker:
15:53To be able to continue to adjust in a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Right? So even if you did create something, it's kinda like the old strategic plan sitting on the shelf gathering dust.
Tucker:
16:00Right? Yeah. It's like, yeah. But if you don't apply learning into that and quickly, then it becomes the more and more you don't apply learning, the more and more irrelevant your strategic plan becomes. And so it's the same thing at different altitudes, at lower altitudes.
Tucker:
16:13That rhythms of learning, you know, weekly rhythms, monthly rhythms, quarterly rhythms that you explicitly have on the calendar to literally give space and time to this, if you don't have that, the more and more irrelevant your task or your tasks are gonna be ultimately.
Sarah:
16:32Because you've learned.
Tucker:
16:33And less cohesion you're going to have.
Sarah:
16:34Right. And things have adjusted. And unless you communicate that and really dig into each other, you're no longer aligned and therefore there's no longer cohesion. Exactly. I think the other thing that I see in this research suggests is that they're both important.
Sarah:
18:55And the sequencing here is important, especially in the virtual world. I think oftentimes we think of team building, right? We're going to get to know each other first. We're going to love each other as humans first, and then we're going to get to the work. And I think part of what this research suggests is that a way into relationships, with folks is also by doing things together first, which is naturally then going to lead to some of this social cohesion.
Tucker:
19:25That's really powerful. That totally goes against like my own intuition. Yes. And then as I'm thinking about what you're sharing, you know, I've thought about this with, like, different partners that we've had. And and I know that, like, once, like, it's like, how can we come up with our minimum viable project to work on?
Tucker:
19:49Yes. Right? Small scope, like, if this it's a new relationship or whatnot, or, you know, I can think about this too on the staff side, like, what are what are simple things that you can just start to do together and then and then do a reflective process around that, that also improves the social cohesion piece too
Sarah:
20:09Exactly.
Tucker:
20:10Yeah. Instead of, like, social cohesion into task, what if as quick as possible you got into task?
Sarah:
20:16Right.
Tucker:
20:18And maybe there's an alignment around, like, maybe from a social cohesion perspective, there's an alignment around philosophy. Like, yeah, we we wanna we had, you know, we choose to we wanna learn a co creative process together. Right? So maybe there's a little bit of that, but it's like get into the project as quick as you can and learn.
Sarah:
20:34Yeah. Yeah. I think that's exactly it. And it makes a lot of intuitive sense to me because, and folks, we always find in the partners we're working with. Some are really down for the team building and the connecting and reflective.
Sarah:
20:49And some folks are like, this feels so uncomfortable. And it takes a while. And so I think what you were just sharing is jump into a project first. We developed that because we realized we were in some in some environments in particular, in particular where there was a kind of an older form of leadership that was more top down that, you know, our approach to working with folks, which is bottom up and co creative and all voices and music and all the things, felt so far out of the comfort zone that we needed to figure out how to connect on something that we shared first, which is getting something done. Yeah.
Sarah:
21:29Right?
Tucker:
21:30Well, it also goes to the concept of, and I know we've been really deeply reflecting on our whole strategic planning process altogether, and it's been some of the core of our work and lots of podcasts about it, that are so fun to watch or listen to and both. I I guess we can watch it too. But but I know that one of the areas in particular that we're looking at, in our own learning is is even in a strategic planning process, how can we move up the implementation part to get to quick wins quickly for people to start to feel. Because part of the, what we do in strategic planning is of course, not just the strategic plan, but which is the, we call it the cheese. Like the medicine in the cheese is teaching people how to be a learning organization.
Tucker:
22:14Yes. Right? That's really what we're doing underneath the surface and that with the outcome of a strategic plan, but really we're helping to help create real culture shift for you to lean into and learn into this next normal. And so part of what we've been looking at with that is, okay, how do we move implementation up even faster? Like, when can we get them into rhythms Yeah.
Tucker:
22:35As quick as possible? Yeah. Even in the, you know, is it possible in the early stages? And this is what we're really discovering and learning is once people get into this implementation, then it's like, okay. I'm I'm starting to learn.
Tucker:
22:47Right? And then the task cohesion to your point. Task cohesion starts to come together. Yeah. They're like, oh, this is what I'm doing.
Tucker:
22:53Oh, this is what we are doing.
Sarah:
22:55Yes.
Tucker:
22:56And so, you know, to be TBD here on what's how we're going to be adjusting our strategic planning process. But that's definitely been something that's emerged pretty strongly for us of bringing the implementation up quicker, faster, get to quick wins around adjustments based upon implications of the strategic plan, things like that.
Sarah:
23:19Yeah. Folks have to feel it.
Tucker:
23:20Which Which speaks to this. They have to feel it. Right? Yeah. They feel it in their, like, routine, in their work.
Sarah:
23:25Yeah.
Tucker:
23:25In the fast which is where a lot of the learning happens. Right? Not in our heads, but in our bodies.
Sarah:
23:30Yeah.
Sarah:
23:31So how do we get them quickly into the doing of things?
Sarah:
23:35Yeah, exactly. And I mean, even today, Tucker, we had a great workshop with an organization that's also working on a refresh of a strategic plan. And I think at the root and it's a big organization, right? Lots of complexity. And, that's another organization that had some great activities, like how we're going to do things, but not tangible measures of what it's going to look like if we've done that well.
Sarah:
24:02And I think that that was really at the root of where what was challenging for that organization. Right? It just, it didn't feel like it fit because they didn't know what it meant. But in our workshop today, one thing, you know so we've helped each department identify their goal and our measures, and they shared them with each other today. And, this really astute young woman said, one thing we're missing here is kind of connecting the dots between the measurable goals at the department level.
Sarah:
24:37And, you know, I was just like, yes. Because I think task cohesion, we often think about it at a team based level, and it's super important there. But then it kind of rolls up right to the organization level. And it's how are we aligned on the task that we're doing in support of our ultimate goal or vision? And those things also need to be cohesive.
Sarah:
24:59And in some ways, if there's a break in cohesion at either of those levels, especially for folks whose brains go to the weeds, I think it can feel really, anxiety producing. Right? Because you're like, no, I see a break in the logic. Right? Yeah.
Sarah:
25:15And then I have to go do it, but there's a break in the logic. You know?
Tucker:
25:19Well and you just hit a hit the nail on the head is how much is a lack of task cohesion anxiety producing?
Sarah:
25:27Totally. Totally.
Tucker:
25:30I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. Wait. How do these fit together? Oh, shoot. Am I gonna have to be the one who's gonna have to take care of the thing, that gap that I see?
Tucker:
25:37Like, how much does that bring up ultimately reactivity, which we all know based on our conscious leadership work that we've talked about too on the podcast that, you know, reactivity only perpetuates more reactivity. Right. And so it creates downward spirals of reactivity in our culture. Yeah. That was anxiety producing.
Tucker:
26:00I didn't even think about that until you said that. I was like, oh my gosh. That's like the core
Sarah:
26:05I could see it for her. I could see she was feeling anxiety about the dots not connecting at a higher level.
Tucker:
26:12Mhmm.
Sarah:
26:12Yeah. Yeah. But in some ways, you know, it's almost like sometimes, especially when you're really starting in some places from scratch on this, start at the team level. Right. And then roll it up because I think in some ways, you know, trying to eat the elephant at the same time can also be anxiety producing for folks.
Sarah:
26:35And so in some ways, it's like set the smallest set of shared goals together and targets that you can start working on those. And then as you do it, figure out how or whether there's a lack of alignment between your department level tasks and that of another, so you can start to align. But I also think an important piece here is not waiting to start until things are perfect because they won't be. Yeah. They won't be.
Tucker:
27:01Yeah. In fact, don't ever wait until things are perfect with really anything in life. Start by starting. Right? It's the only way to do it.
Tucker:
27:11Like, start by starting. Start by learning into it. Well and, Sarah Sarah, I'm curious in this one of our questions here around what's made possible in in spaces of task cohesion happening, whether you've seen it with our or within THRIVE or others, or even like this last podcast we did with doctor Cynthia Whitaker. And Yeah. And, you know, the it was a year and a half after their strategic plan and their implementation work we did with them.
Tucker:
27:38And and just what emerged from there, I was, you know, I'm just trying to think of the different examples. But as you've heard some of those stories and you felt some of that experience with us too, what what is made possible for these impact driven leaders if they're able to implement more task cohesive practices?
Sarah:
27:56I think it's a surprising answer because you think task and you think narrow, but I think what's actually made possible is, is the ability to innovate and some freedom, to explore. And that sounds counterintuitive, I think, because you're like, well, it's just task cohesion. But when you have that, what you're then able to do is take a look at, your allow us to take a look at some things that are maybe outside of your regular day to day. You're able to stretch because the things you know you need to get done, you're aligned on, right? And so it gives you freedom.
Sarah:
28:34I think the first thing is it gives you freedom. And then the second thing is allows you to be creative and innovate. Right? We saw that with greater Nashua. Right?
Tucker:
28:42Yep.
Sarah:
28:43And we've seen that right now with this other organization we're talking about where even today, right. They were saying people are excited about being able to innovate. But the potential for innovation only comes when we are aligned on the things we already know we need to do. So we can put some down and we can focus.
Tucker:
29:03Well and I think too, part of the reason why I like where you're going with this, Sarah, is that we're able to be more creative because we're not confused. Yes. You know?
Sarah:
29:15Clear as time.
Tucker:
29:16Fusion is a stealer of of energy and creativity because we're, like, we're using our creative energy on trying to figure out what the heck is happening in happening in the first place. Right?
Sarah:
29:26Yeah.
Tucker:
29:26Like, why are we doing this? Like, we how much energy I mean, we do this from a facilitation perspective. We we work a lot on our enrollment into something which is to help people to come into an experience and answer the questions that we think that they may already have that they're not verbally asking, but they're probably asking within their own minds. Right? Like, do I really want to ask her this question?
Tucker:
29:48Why do I need to go into a small group? Is it safe for me to share? Like or or why is this an important question? Like, peep we're always asking these questions of why. And and and that's takes energy.
Tucker:
30:01That takes creative energy to actually figure those out. And so if we can get to the space where we don't have to think about and use our creative energy towards the confusion we have or the, why is this again? You know? And instead use our creative energy towards the task itself.
Sarah:
30:15Yes.
Tucker:
30:16I think that's where that that innovation is, can start to really come out.
Sarah:
30:19Yes. For sure. For sure. And, you know, it will bring up as we continually see, and I think feel feelings of discomfort. Right.
Sarah:
30:28And because as you're working towards alignment, it feels uncomfortable. It's 2 steps forward and one step back sometimes. But ultimately, I think the journey of alignment and cohesion around what we're doing at all altitudes, you know, is is the journey. You know, I when at my last job, like, a few weeks in, one of we had a office in, in LA and the executive director there, I was on a phone call with her and she said, Sarah, your superpower is focus. And I said, thanks.
Sarah:
31:05I, you know, I wasn't didn't really think about it, but that stuck with me because, I think she may have been right. And it's that ability to focus and get clear on the task and then execute the task that ultimately allows us as organizations and human systems to move forward.
Tucker:
31:26That was so interesting. The same organization you were just talking about, earlier today, they I would I would plus 1 that person's view of you, a focus, which is that podcast we just did the other day, which is around your your nose give power to your most important yeses. And I think it was called, what was it called? It was something around, the power of saying no or something like that. Yeah.
Tucker:
31:51And let me see. I wanna find it. Let's see. Where is it? Mastering the art of saying no.
Tucker:
31:57That's what it was. I knew it was a different title. But because I think that one of the challenges in including this organization that we're just talking to, and working with is the the the lack of task cohesion around too many things.
Sarah:
32:16Yeah.
Tucker:
32:17Like too many tasks also can be an issue.
Sarah:
32:20For sure.
Tucker:
32:20Like complexity is a lack of task cohesion. Yeah. Now I'm trying to think of these different areas where the lack of task cohesion comes out. And and that complexity, hence the art of saying no, which ultimately is an art of focusing. Right?
Sarah:
32:35Yes.
Tucker:
32:35Because we have whether we like it or not, we have limited capabilities. Right? We have limited creative energy. We have limited time, and the more yeses we have, the blander they are. Yes.
Tucker:
32:49Yeah. And and so a complexity, right, and and so much happens especially in nonprofits is is we we keep adding things without subtracting things. Yeah. And it becomes a significant complexity now that we're juggling too many things. And now we've we're continuing to lose our cohesion of the tasks because we were like, I don't know how to do all of them.
Sarah:
33:08Yes. Well, it was funny. I was reflecting on that, you know, quote, your nose give powers. And I was like, and we were having a conversation the other day with somebody write about about that podcast. And I was like, am I really I think it's actually that what who I wanna say yes to is the people out there in the community that we're serving.
Sarah:
33:30I wanna say bigger yeses to them. You know what I mean? And so it's like, it's, it's, it's saying yes, but it's saying yes to the folks out there. And if we wanna say yes to them, we need to do it well, you know? And to do it well, we need to focus and only do a few things, right?
Sarah:
33:47It's that example of use of you times of, oh, sure. We're serving middle school students. Let's just start to say, serve high school students. Well, actually, I'm saying a yes to the middle schoolers, not a no to the high schoolers. And my yes to the middle schoolers is that if I add high schoolers, I'm not gonna be able to do as well on middle schoolers.
Sarah:
34:05And so it's almost like, I'm saying a a bigger yes, right, to the things that are most important rather than, you know, a no to the thing. I mean, also a no. But
Tucker:
34:16Yeah. Well, Sarah, I need to go pick up my daughter from school, but I wanted to end with one quick rapid round question, which is you got me hooked. I get it. Task cohesion. Yeah.
Tucker:
34:28I if I would ask the exercise question and how do I get healthy, my team would have said said the same thing, and nobody would have noticed that Yeah. There was they were all different in so many of them. Right? Yeah. So what what do I need to do?
Tucker:
34:39What what how would I start by starting? If I'm a nonprofit leader or impact driven leader of a company or, the municipality, what is a practical step I can start to take to develop more task cohesion?
Sarah:
34:53Yeah, I think the first and most important thing is to establish team or department, level goals that are measurable, that have specific quantitative measures of success, that every individual in your team or organization can then create a smaller, measurable goal in relation to. That's where I would start. Because then if you have high level measurable goals and individual level, team level measurable goals, and individual level goals, all of those things can and should align, and that's how you start. Because then it's the conversation around that alignment and the doing of it that really makes it happen.
Tucker:
35:32And you can co create that by asking a question like a year from today. I mean, this is what we did with this organization we're talking about earlier. A year from today, at the end of 2024, what would you wanna be celebrating about insert topic, right, or insert category? And gathering the voices of all the people in the room and the staff that were across departmental and the board too, and and then do a cocreative process, which I think would be a really helpful piece for us to to really hit on around the, opening the aperture of the diverging process into the convergent because I think that's a big piece of of gathering task cohesion in a way that actually also generates social cohesion at the same time.
Sarah:
36:13Correct. A 100%.
Tucker:
36:15And, and but that's a good that's a good question to do what Sarah was asking of. What do we wanna celebrate and how do we what specific things would you like to see, feel, or hear? What data points would you like to, or increases in in different things would you like to experience in our work or in, you know, in the people that we're serving? So So that's one way to to get to some of those thoughts. Yeah.
Tucker:
36:39Well, cool. Well, I'm excited about, continuing to dive deeper into this around, which really to me is co creative leadership, right? This gets into one of our main Cs of leadership, is how do people cocreate their futures together
Sarah:
36:54Yeah.
Tucker:
36:55And and how much joy and healing and excitement and ultimately impact that that can bring. Mhmm. And that ultimately creates impact from the inside out. Hence, why we you know, that's our work is Yeah. How do we really do that?
Tucker:
37:08So, Sarah, I really appreciate you bringing this research forward. We'll put some of these resources in there. I'll put the logic model link. You mentioned the logic model earlier. Yeah.
Tucker:
37:15And some of these podcast links that we talked about. But I do recommend if you're if this is something that's of interest to you to go check out some of our other podcasts, like the Mastering the Art of Saying No, the operationalizing one again, which is a workshop process you can take your own organization through. It was very specific and very granular of how we did it. That should hopefully be helpful. And or if you want us to help you do it yourself, let us know because this is what we do.
Tucker:
37:40We help organizations quite literally create social and task cohesion all at the same time. So That's true. Thanks for listening in, Sarah. Great to be with you, and we'll see you on the next podcast. Bye, everyone.
