Speaker:
00:00:00
- And yet we react to it,
Speaker:
00:00:02
and I hope they never
figure out that mystery.
Speaker:
00:00:05
- It was watched by an
estimated 3.5 billion viewers.
Speaker:
00:00:09
- It's like their child suddenly said mama
Speaker:
00:00:12
for the first time.
Speaker:
00:00:13
- And then all of a
sudden you find yourself
Speaker:
00:00:16
touring the world.
Speaker:
00:00:17
- And you play it for them,
Speaker:
00:00:19
and they go, "This is not working."
Speaker:
00:00:21
And so there I was
sitting with the two guys
Speaker:
00:00:23
that created Cirque du Soleil,
Speaker:
00:00:25
and world-renowned choreographers,
Speaker:
00:00:28
and designers, and whatnot,
Speaker:
00:00:29
and there I am,
Speaker:
00:00:30
and you can't put that
genie back in the bottle.
Speaker:
00:00:33
- I'm Kendell Kelton,
Speaker:
00:00:35
and today I'm your host
on "The Rough Draft."
Speaker:
00:00:37
In this episode, I sit
down with Mark Watters,
Speaker:
00:00:39
a six-time Emmy award-winning
composer and conductor,
Speaker:
00:00:42
renowned for his work in
film, television, video games,
Speaker:
00:00:46
global tours such as
"Star Wars" and "Concert,"
Speaker:
00:00:48
and major events like the Olympics.
Speaker:
00:00:51
Mark's career spans iconic Disney classics
Speaker:
00:00:54
and collaborations with
artists like John Legend,
Speaker:
00:00:56
Mary J. Blige, and Beyonce.
Speaker:
00:00:59
In addition, Mark serves
as an academic leader
Speaker:
00:01:01
at the prestigious Eastman
University in New York.
Speaker:
00:01:04
Join us today as we discuss
his creative process,
Speaker:
00:01:07
how to embrace technology
while guarding authenticity,
Speaker:
00:01:10
and the deeply emotional
resonance of music
Speaker:
00:01:12
across all content mediums.
Speaker:
00:01:14
All right, here's my
conversation with Mark Watters.
Speaker:
00:01:19
(upbeat music)
Speaker:
00:01:28
I have a four-year-old son,
Speaker:
00:01:30
and I've begun noticing
Speaker:
00:01:35
just how deeply he responds
to music and musical cues.
Speaker:
00:01:39
And it's pretty remarkable to witness
Speaker:
00:01:42
just how music is already shaping
Speaker:
00:01:43
his little deep emotional connection,
Speaker:
00:01:46
even at such a young age.
Speaker:
00:01:48
And an example of this
was we recently took him
Speaker:
00:01:51
to Disney World,
Speaker:
00:01:52
and we went to see the
live action performance
Speaker:
00:01:56
of "Indiana Jones," which in retrospect
Speaker:
00:01:57
may have been a poor parenting decision
Speaker:
00:02:00
because there was some
scary moments there.
Speaker:
00:02:04
But it was really neat because, you know,
Speaker:
00:02:09
that famous "The Raiders March,"
Speaker:
00:02:10
that famous score that,
Speaker:
00:02:13
♪ Dun-da-dun-dun, dun-da-dun ♪
Speaker:
00:02:16
That, as soon as that came on,
Speaker:
00:02:18
his entire being just lit up with wonder,
Speaker:
00:02:21
and he was so excited.
Speaker:
00:02:23
And I actually have a
recording of it on my phone,
Speaker:
00:02:25
and watching him and then
watching everybody else
Speaker:
00:02:28
in the audience, adults,
people my age, older,
Speaker:
00:02:32
folks who have seen it a dozen times,
Speaker:
00:02:34
everyone is still feeling the same thing.
Speaker:
00:02:36
Like, the second that sound comes on,
Speaker:
00:02:38
you can just feel it in
your soul, that excitement.
Speaker:
00:02:41
And then a few scenes later is
the big boulder coming down,
Speaker:
00:02:44
and that nervous anxiety,
Speaker:
00:02:46
you hear the trumpets
and the horns flare up,
Speaker:
00:02:50
and looking at Wyatt, he's just,
Speaker:
00:02:52
he's so nervous what's
gonna happen to Indy.
Speaker:
00:02:54
- Oh my God.
Speaker:
00:02:58
Hey, Chris are you okay?
Speaker:
00:03:00
Get up, you'll be okay, quick!
Speaker:
00:03:03
- And again, same thing,
everyone around, myself included,
Speaker:
00:03:06
has that kind of like
nervous excitement energy,
Speaker:
00:03:09
even though, spoiler alert,
we know what's gonna happen.
Speaker:
00:03:12
We know he's gonna make
it at the last minute.
Speaker:
00:03:14
But it was so neat to
re-kind of witness that
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00:03:18
for the first time through his eyes,
Speaker:
00:03:19
but then also to realize that
impact of sound and music
Speaker:
00:03:23
in those moments.
Speaker:
00:03:24
And so, as somebody who has spent a career
Speaker:
00:03:28
kind of pulling that
tether between emotion
Speaker:
00:03:30
and music and trying to
find those special moments,
Speaker:
00:03:34
I'd love to hear a
little bit more from you
Speaker:
00:03:37
on your approach to finding
kind of that connection,
Speaker:
00:03:41
because again, like music
can change things in a second
Speaker:
00:03:46
emotionally for folks.
Speaker:
00:03:48
So I'd love to hear kind of your take.
Speaker:
00:03:51
- Well, again, I think I'm
gonna just be repeating
Speaker:
00:03:54
some of the things that you just said.
Speaker:
00:03:56
Music is incredibly important
Speaker:
00:03:57
to conveying a story,
Speaker:
00:04:03
because film is a two-dimensional entity.
Speaker:
00:04:07
And so by adding music,
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00:04:10
it is built into us
that we respond to this.
Speaker:
00:04:13
And I will say it is a mystery
to me why we do respond.
Speaker:
00:04:17
What is it?
Speaker:
00:04:18
I mean, what is music?
Speaker:
00:04:19
It's just a vibration.
Speaker:
00:04:20
It's different pitches vibrating,
Speaker:
00:04:23
and yet we react to it.
Speaker:
00:04:24
And I hope they never
figure out that mystery.
Speaker:
00:04:28
I hope it always remains this unknown,
Speaker:
00:04:31
because it always should
be a creative journey
Speaker:
00:04:35
to find those right vibrations
that make that happen.
Speaker:
00:04:38
So that when you hear that wonderful theme
Speaker:
00:04:41
from Indiana Jones that
John Williams wrote,
Speaker:
00:04:43
it fits that character and
that scene and that moment.
Speaker:
00:04:47
And it brings back,
Speaker:
00:04:48
this is why film music
concerts are so popular,
Speaker:
00:04:51
because we can hear that music
Speaker:
00:04:53
and it takes us back to that
experience of seeing the film.
Speaker:
00:04:57
And now we've taken it
even to the next level,
Speaker:
00:04:59
because now orchestras
are performing the score
Speaker:
00:05:01
live to picture with the movie playing,
Speaker:
00:05:04
but the orchestra is
playing the music live.
Speaker:
00:05:07
And so we're getting
that visceral sensation
Speaker:
00:05:10
of the music being performed
right there in front of us,
Speaker:
00:05:13
not recorded and mixed in,
Speaker:
00:05:15
but right there in front of us.
Speaker:
00:05:17
And it's so exciting.
Speaker:
00:05:18
And I just think it's
a wonderful advancement
Speaker:
00:05:22
in what we've done.
Speaker:
00:05:23
I mean, I was at such
an impressionable age
Speaker:
00:05:26
when John Williams became a star with,
Speaker:
00:05:29
I graduated from college the summer
Speaker:
00:05:32
that "Star Wars" came out.
Speaker:
00:05:34
And that was followed by "E.T."
and the other "Star Wars"
Speaker:
00:05:38
films and "Close Encounters"
and "Indiana Jones."
Speaker:
00:05:41
And I fell in love with his music
Speaker:
00:05:43
and that's what inspired
me to pursue this,
Speaker:
00:05:47
right then and there.
Speaker:
00:05:48
I mean, and I had the
pleasure of telling John this,
Speaker:
00:05:51
"You're the reason I'm doing this."
Speaker:
00:05:54
And he was very sweet about
it and he was very touched.
Speaker:
00:05:56
- Instances where you had
that deep emotional connection
Speaker:
00:06:01
with music that influenced you?
Speaker:
00:06:02
I mean, you obviously just said it
Speaker:
00:06:03
with John Williams and "Star Wars"
Speaker:
00:06:05
and then all of a sudden you find yourself
Speaker:
00:06:07
touring the world.
Speaker:
00:06:09
Are there specific moments
and specific pieces of music
Speaker:
00:06:13
that you would say like still to this day
Speaker:
00:06:15
has that emotional resonance?
Speaker:
00:06:15
- The first time I can
remember being moved
Speaker:
00:06:19
by the music in a movie, I
was 14, I think, 13 or 14
Speaker:
00:06:25
when the 1968 production of
"Romeo and Juliet" came out,
Speaker:
00:06:32
directed by Franco Zeffirelli,
Speaker:
00:06:34
stars Olivia Hussey and Leonard Whiting.
Speaker:
00:06:37
It's a gorgeous movie and
the score is by Nino Rota,
Speaker:
00:06:42
who was the Italian composer
Speaker:
00:06:44
who wrote the score to "The Godfather."
Speaker:
00:06:45
Very famous Italian film composer.
Speaker:
00:06:48
And the melodies and the settings,
Speaker:
00:06:52
just like what you were
saying with "Indiana Jones,"
Speaker:
00:06:54
it just, it brought the
movie to life for me.
Speaker:
00:06:59
And I remember reacting to the music.
Speaker:
00:07:01
I mean, I was playing guitar at the time
Speaker:
00:07:04
and I was envisioning being a
rock and roll guitar player,
Speaker:
00:07:09
but this music was just so
gorgeous and so fit the movie.
Speaker:
00:07:14
And I had no idea that
I would ever pursue this
Speaker:
00:07:18
as a career that was way beyond,
Speaker:
00:07:20
even when I was in college
and studying music,
Speaker:
00:07:23
I was a saxophone major
and I was studying jazz
Speaker:
00:07:26
and classical music.
Speaker:
00:07:28
I didn't have any inkling at all
Speaker:
00:07:30
that I would pursue film composing
Speaker:
00:07:33
and TV composing as a profession.
Speaker:
00:07:35
That happened subsequently
Speaker:
00:07:38
after going to a few more
John Williams concerts
Speaker:
00:07:40
and movies and whatnot.
Speaker:
00:07:43
But, and it, we don't
have to get into this,
Speaker:
00:07:47
but I mean, I took a course,
Speaker:
00:07:48
a beginner course in film
scoring, just purely as a lark.
Speaker:
00:07:52
I didn't think that
anything would come from it.
Speaker:
00:07:54
I could have easily
taken a watercolor course
Speaker:
00:07:57
or a horticulture course or something.
Speaker:
00:08:00
It was at the UCLA extension,
Speaker:
00:08:02
which was a school of
continuing education.
Speaker:
00:08:05
And I'm so grateful that I took it.
Speaker:
00:08:06
It was this introduction to film scoring
Speaker:
00:08:09
and it was taught by a wonderful man
Speaker:
00:08:10
who allowed me to write a piece of music
Speaker:
00:08:13
for a piece of an episode
of "Hawaii Five-O."
Speaker:
00:08:16
And it just changed my life.
Speaker:
00:08:19
'Cause I had that moment of where music
Speaker:
00:08:21
and visual come together and become one.
Speaker:
00:08:25
And it makes the visual just come to life
Speaker:
00:08:28
in a way that it wouldn't
if you just sat there.
Speaker:
00:08:30
I mean, I love going into
schools and I did this,
Speaker:
00:08:35
you know, I've done this several times
Speaker:
00:08:36
where I've played scenes from TV shows
Speaker:
00:08:39
and when it's with young
kids, it's usually a cartoon
Speaker:
00:08:43
and I play it without music.
Speaker:
00:08:44
And it's amazing how six-year-olds
will look at it like,
Speaker:
00:08:49
"Wow, it's just not the same."
Speaker:
00:08:51
And then I'll play the same
scene again with the music.
Speaker:
00:08:54
And they're like, "Oh my God, that's it."
Speaker:
00:08:56
And then I'll play it
with the wrong music.
Speaker:
00:08:59
I'll play it with music
that's totally different
Speaker:
00:09:01
than what it's supposed to be.
Speaker:
00:09:03
And they totally react to it.
Speaker:
00:09:05
I mean, it is built into us as our DNA
Speaker:
00:09:09
that we react to this.
Speaker:
00:09:10
And it's, you know, just a wonderful thing
Speaker:
00:09:13
that we've only discovered this, you know,
Speaker:
00:09:15
as far as film is concerned, you know,
Speaker:
00:09:16
in the last hundred years.
Speaker:
00:09:18
- Have you ever come
across that in your career
Speaker:
00:09:21
where perhaps the music just didn't work,
Speaker:
00:09:24
that you were, you know-
Speaker:
00:09:25
- Are you talking about my
music or somebody else's music?
Speaker:
00:09:27
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yours or both.
Speaker:
00:09:29
- Well, there's two answers to that.
Speaker:
00:09:32
I tell my students here at
the Eastman School of Music
Speaker:
00:09:36
that I love when I see a
score that's not working.
Speaker:
00:09:39
I just love it.
- Oh, really?
Speaker:
00:09:40
- 'Cause it's so, it's encouraging to me.
Speaker:
00:09:44
And I like-
- How so?
Speaker:
00:09:46
- Well, because it just
goes to show that, you know,
Speaker:
00:09:50
there are people out there doing this
Speaker:
00:09:52
that need more training.
Speaker:
00:09:54
And usually it's the filmmaker.
Speaker:
00:09:56
It's not necessarily the composer.
Speaker:
00:09:59
I'm always amazed when film
schools do not teach music
Speaker:
00:10:05
and not making music, but
how do you tell a composer
Speaker:
00:10:08
what it is that you should be telling them
Speaker:
00:10:11
to get the score that you want?
Speaker:
00:10:13
The language that you said,
Speaker:
00:10:15
you don't have to talk music language,
Speaker:
00:10:16
but you need to talk
storytelling language.
Speaker:
00:10:19
And then the other thing is that I,
Speaker:
00:10:22
there's never just one
way to score something.
Speaker:
00:10:25
There's always an interpretation.
Speaker:
00:10:27
And I've had, you know, we've all had,
Speaker:
00:10:31
every person that's done
this for any length of time
Speaker:
00:10:33
has had instances where
you write something
Speaker:
00:10:36
and you're just absolutely certain
Speaker:
00:10:37
it's gonna just blow them away.
Speaker:
00:10:40
And you bring it in and
you play it for them
Speaker:
00:10:42
and they go, this is not working.
Speaker:
00:10:44
And then it's like, whoa.
Speaker:
00:10:48
And this gets into, you know,
Speaker:
00:10:50
these are lessons that every
composer has dealt with
Speaker:
00:10:53
since, you know, the '20s
Speaker:
00:10:55
when composers first started
putting music to film.
Speaker:
00:10:59
How do you handle that?
Speaker:
00:11:00
'Cause you can't get insulted.
Speaker:
00:11:02
You can't get personal,
like, how dare you do that?
Speaker:
00:11:04
I wasted all this time.
Speaker:
00:11:06
And now you're telling
me it's not working.
Speaker:
00:11:07
You can't do that.
Speaker:
00:11:09
I often use the analogy of when,
Speaker:
00:11:12
if you had somebody come
and redesign your kitchen
Speaker:
00:11:15
and you tell them exactly
what it is you want
Speaker:
00:11:17
and they do it and they
said, no, that's not working.
Speaker:
00:11:19
Can you do it again?
Speaker:
00:11:20
And you don't pay them anymore
Speaker:
00:11:21
and you don't give them any more time
Speaker:
00:11:23
but they've got to redo the kitchen.
Speaker:
00:11:25
That doesn't happen.
Speaker:
00:11:26
But in film music, that
is the way it goes.
Speaker:
00:11:29
I mean, I've literally had cues
Speaker:
00:11:31
that I've rewritten seven or eight times
Speaker:
00:11:33
because it just wasn't working for them.
Speaker:
00:11:36
And it's very encouraging then
when I hear other composers
Speaker:
00:11:41
and composers far more successful
than me talk about this.
Speaker:
00:11:46
And John Williams, I've heard
John Williams talk about this.
Speaker:
00:11:50
I mean, to be a film composer,
to be a media composer,
Speaker:
00:11:54
whether it be video games
or television or film,
Speaker:
00:11:57
you have to really love collaborating.
Speaker:
00:11:59
I tell my students, look,
Speaker:
00:12:01
if you wanna write
whatever you wanna write,
Speaker:
00:12:03
be a concert composer, be
a rock and roll songwriter.
Speaker:
00:12:08
But if you wanna be a media composer,
Speaker:
00:12:10
you have to love the idea of
collaborating with somebody
Speaker:
00:12:14
where somebody is giving you a direction
Speaker:
00:12:16
and you then complete it.
Speaker:
00:12:18
- Well, so let's talk a little bit then
Speaker:
00:12:20
about your creative process,
Speaker:
00:12:22
because I mean, as you
were just explaining,
Speaker:
00:12:24
like you can put so much time
and effort into something
Speaker:
00:12:27
for it to never ever come to fruition.
Speaker:
00:12:30
In those instances, how do
you kind of move through them?
Speaker:
00:12:35
Like, what are the things
you try to lean into
Speaker:
00:12:37
or learn from?
Speaker:
00:12:38
How do you ensure that
it doesn't, you know,
Speaker:
00:12:41
take too much of a hit against your ego?
Speaker:
00:12:43
So like, especially for
people coming into this field,
Speaker:
00:12:45
which is incredibly
complicated and competitive,
Speaker:
00:12:49
how do you keep kind of pushing through?
Speaker:
00:12:52
- I suppose the good outweighs the bad.
Speaker:
00:12:55
You know, the thrill of writing something
Speaker:
00:12:59
and when you play it for the director
Speaker:
00:13:02
and suddenly they're, you know,
Speaker:
00:13:07
their efforts now have been
completed and fulfilled
Speaker:
00:13:13
because music really completes
the storytelling process
Speaker:
00:13:17
because it comes at the end,
Speaker:
00:13:19
it's one of the last things
that's added to the film
Speaker:
00:13:24
and they've been looking
at it for, you know,
Speaker:
00:13:26
weeks and months and whatever without it,
Speaker:
00:13:28
maybe they have a temp score,
Speaker:
00:13:30
but you know, when the real
score finally is put to it
Speaker:
00:13:34
and it, you know, it's like their child
Speaker:
00:13:37
suddenly said mama for the first time.
Speaker:
00:13:40
It's just like, oh my gosh,
Speaker:
00:13:42
thank you so much for doing that.
Speaker:
00:13:44
That is such a fulfilling step
Speaker:
00:13:47
because I love collaborating, I really do.
Speaker:
00:13:53
- Let's actually talk about that a bit
Speaker:
00:13:54
because I don't think
people quite understand
Speaker:
00:13:57
what happens behind the scenes
Speaker:
00:13:59
and when somebody like yourself
is brought into a project.
Speaker:
00:14:02
And so can you walk through
kind of that process
Speaker:
00:14:06
of when you are approached and
typically kind of that rhythm
Speaker:
00:14:12
that you experienced, maybe we'll use film
Speaker:
00:14:14
or if there's, you
know, something specific
Speaker:
00:14:17
that you think is a little
bit more interesting
Speaker:
00:14:18
like video gaming.
Speaker:
00:14:19
- Well, it's slightly different,
Speaker:
00:14:21
but I mean, usually because music is
Speaker:
00:14:23
in the post-production phase of it,
Speaker:
00:14:26
editing and the ADR, the
sound and all that is done,
Speaker:
00:14:29
you know, after the piece has been filmed.
Speaker:
00:14:35
The lesser talented filmmakers
Speaker:
00:14:37
don't think about music until then.
Speaker:
00:14:39
The talented filmmakers
are thinking about it
Speaker:
00:14:42
when the script is being written.
Speaker:
00:14:43
They will write scenes knowing that music
Speaker:
00:14:46
is going to do this.
Speaker:
00:14:48
I mean, one of my favorite scenes
Speaker:
00:14:51
and it's a movie that
I'm sure you've seen,
Speaker:
00:14:53
the ending of "The Good
and the Bad and the Ugly"
Speaker:
00:14:56
when they're standing, the
three of them in that cemetery
Speaker:
00:15:00
and they're just staring each other down
Speaker:
00:15:02
and it goes on forever and ever and ever.
Speaker:
00:15:04
And the music is building and building.
Speaker:
00:15:07
Imagine what that scene would
look like with no music.
Speaker:
00:15:09
And that's what the filmmaker
and the actors were seeing.
Speaker:
00:15:14
The filmmaker, Sergio Leone,
was so brilliant with music
Speaker:
00:15:18
that he knew that his
composer, Ennio Morricone,
Speaker:
00:15:21
would fill that up and just
fill the emotion of the scene.
Speaker:
00:15:28
That's great filmmaking when
the filmmaker knows how music,
Speaker:
00:15:33
you know, Steven Spielberg
and John Williams,
Speaker:
00:15:35
he just knows they'll film this scene
Speaker:
00:15:38
knowing that music is
going to just take it
Speaker:
00:15:41
to another level.
Speaker:
00:15:44
You know, I hear stories of filmmakers
Speaker:
00:15:46
bringing composers to the set
Speaker:
00:15:48
and having them walk around the set
Speaker:
00:15:51
and absorb, you know, because
it is a creative process
Speaker:
00:15:54
and you need to get those wheels going.
Speaker:
00:15:59
And so many times, you
know, I've been, you know,
Speaker:
00:16:02
particularly if it's a
score that is being replaced
Speaker:
00:16:06
and that happens more
often than you would think,
Speaker:
00:16:09
this composer that's brought
in to replace the score,
Speaker:
00:16:12
the thrown out score has
very little time to do it.
Speaker:
00:16:15
And so they've got to suddenly
come up with a creative plan
Speaker:
00:16:21
you know, what is gonna
be the DNA of the score?
Speaker:
00:16:24
And then, you know, forget
about what notes to choose
Speaker:
00:16:27
and what instruments
are going to play them.
Speaker:
00:16:29
What kind of music do we wanna do?
Speaker:
00:16:32
And if I can make a break, hang on,
Speaker:
00:16:36
I'm gonna pull a book out
just to give you an example.
Speaker:
00:16:38
- Okay. (laughs)
Speaker:
00:16:44
- I love this book.
Speaker:
00:16:46
- What is it?
Speaker:
00:16:47
"Horn Music Rejected Film Scores," ooh.
Speaker:
00:16:50
- Look how thick this book is. (laughs)
Speaker:
00:16:52
- I like it, I like it.
Speaker:
00:16:54
- It's all stories of scores
Speaker:
00:16:56
and scores that are famous
movies, big movies that,
Speaker:
00:17:00
you know, this big time composer wrote it
Speaker:
00:17:02
and it didn't work and they
brought somebody else in.
Speaker:
00:17:06
And it is-
Speaker:
00:17:06
- But that's so funny
'cause everyone thinks
Speaker:
00:17:08
that if you're like Hans
Zimmer or John Williams,
Speaker:
00:17:11
you're gonna succeed every single time.
Speaker:
00:17:13
- Yeah.
Speaker:
00:17:14
- And that's not true.
Speaker:
00:17:15
- No, it's not.
Speaker:
00:17:16
Every major composer with the
exception of John Williams
Speaker:
00:17:20
has had a score thrown out.
Speaker:
00:17:21
In fact, the saying is you
haven't made it to the big time
Speaker:
00:17:24
until you've had a score thrown out.
Speaker:
00:17:27
- I love that.
Speaker:
00:17:27
- Yeah.
Speaker:
00:17:28
- I love that.
Speaker:
00:17:29
Have you had a score thrown out?
Speaker:
00:17:31
- No, I've not had a
whole score thrown out,
Speaker:
00:17:33
but I have had a couple of
cues that when I saw the film
Speaker:
00:17:38
or watched the TV show and
suddenly there was no music there
Speaker:
00:17:41
and I go, "What happened?"
Speaker:
00:17:42
They go, "Yeah, we didn't
really like that cue."
Speaker:
00:17:44
Oh, okay.
Speaker:
00:17:46
And a lot of times a music
editor can doctor something
Speaker:
00:17:48
together and put something in.
Speaker:
00:17:50
And that happens all the time.
Speaker:
00:17:54
- So I wanna talk about what I know
Speaker:
00:17:57
when we were chatting
pre-recording about something
Speaker:
00:18:02
that was really, really special for you,
Speaker:
00:18:04
a collaboration and an effort
that you are very proud of.
Speaker:
00:18:07
And that's the Summer '96 Olympics,
Speaker:
00:18:11
which you worked on in addition
to the Winter '02 Olympics.
Speaker:
00:18:16
And a fun fact that I was
reading about the '96 Olympics,
Speaker:
00:18:22
it was watched by an estimated,
Speaker:
00:18:24
the opening ceremony in particular,
Speaker:
00:18:26
it was watched by an estimated
Speaker:
00:18:28
3.5 billion viewers worldwide.
Speaker:
00:18:31
And that's in 1996.
Speaker:
00:18:32
And that was the most watched TV event
Speaker:
00:18:35
only until two years ago when
Queen Elizabeth had passed.
Speaker:
00:18:38
And so that more tuned in for her funeral.
Speaker:
00:18:42
But to hold that for so long
and to be a part of a moment
Speaker:
00:18:46
like that, I'd like us to spend some time
Speaker:
00:18:48
just talking about how
that opportunity came about
Speaker:
00:18:51
for you in particular,
Speaker:
00:18:53
and anything unique about the process
Speaker:
00:18:57
you went through for that.
Speaker:
00:19:00
- Well, I got recommended to the producer,
Speaker:
00:19:03
a man named Don Mischer,
Speaker:
00:19:04
who was producing the opening
and closing ceremonies
Speaker:
00:19:08
by the man who was the administrative head
Speaker:
00:19:12
of the Atlanta Symphony,
Speaker:
00:19:14
which was going to be the
host symphony for the show.
Speaker:
00:19:17
And this was over a year before the games.
Speaker:
00:19:21
And Don happened to be at
a, I think a reception,
Speaker:
00:19:26
and the man named Mitch
Gershenfeld was talking to him.
Speaker:
00:19:30
And Don got to talking about the music
Speaker:
00:19:32
and how the symphony
would be a part of it.
Speaker:
00:19:33
And Don mentioned to him, he said,
Speaker:
00:19:35
"We're gonna need a
different music director
Speaker:
00:19:37
than I've normally used in the past,
Speaker:
00:19:39
because we're gonna need,
Speaker:
00:19:40
there's a lot of storytelling
in the opening ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:19:42
We're going to be telling
history and stories and whatnot.
Speaker:
00:19:47
And I need to get a different,
Speaker:
00:19:49
I think I'm gonna need to get
a different music director."
Speaker:
00:19:51
'Cause he had used a particular person
Speaker:
00:19:54
for many of his projects.
Speaker:
00:19:56
And Mitch had conducted a
production of "Babes in Toyland"
Speaker:
00:20:02
that I had redone all
the arrangements for.
Speaker:
00:20:04
I didn't compose anything.
Speaker:
00:20:05
This is Victor Herbert's famous operetta.
Speaker:
00:20:10
But they had wanted to give it a facelift
Speaker:
00:20:14
and a modernization.
Speaker:
00:20:15
And I put in a lot of storytelling in it
Speaker:
00:20:17
that was part of the story.
Speaker:
00:20:20
And he was very impressed with that.
Speaker:
00:20:21
So he told Don about it.
Speaker:
00:20:23
So I got asked to travel to,
Speaker:
00:20:25
I get this call out of nowhere.
Speaker:
00:20:26
I'd never even heard of him.
Speaker:
00:20:28
And I get this call out of
nowhere to travel to Atlanta
Speaker:
00:20:31
one year before the opening ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:20:33
And they only wanted me
there to sit around the table
Speaker:
00:20:36
with all the other creative
heads and offer ideas.
Speaker:
00:20:39
That was it.
Speaker:
00:20:40
Just if something comes into
your head, just tell them.
Speaker:
00:20:42
And so there I was
sitting with the two guys
Speaker:
00:20:44
that created Cirque du Soleil
Speaker:
00:20:46
and world-renowned
choreographers and designers
Speaker:
00:20:50
and whatnot.
Speaker:
00:20:51
And there I am, you know.
Speaker:
00:20:52
And, you know, 'cause I don't
Speaker:
00:20:54
know how to keep my mouth shut.
Speaker:
00:20:55
I started throwing out ideas.
Speaker:
00:20:57
How about this?
Speaker:
00:20:58
How about this?
Speaker:
00:20:59
You know, and let's do that.
Speaker:
00:20:59
And I had a keyboard with me.
Speaker:
00:21:03
And in my hotel room, I
came up with this neat chord
Speaker:
00:21:06
that if you took the five Olympic rings
Speaker:
00:21:08
and turn them on their side
and put it on a music staff,
Speaker:
00:21:11
it creates a chord.
Speaker:
00:21:12
And I played this chord
and they were like, wow,
Speaker:
00:21:14
this is so cool.
Speaker:
00:21:15
So-
- How did you come up
Speaker:
00:21:16
with that idea?
Speaker:
00:21:17
- I don't know, you know.
Speaker:
00:21:19
It just kind of popped me like,
Speaker:
00:21:21
hmm, these look like music notes.
Speaker:
00:21:22
How about I turn it on my side.
Speaker:
00:21:24
And it was.
(light piano music)
Speaker:
00:21:29
That's the chord.
Speaker:
00:21:30
And I get a call a week later.
Speaker:
00:21:33
You know, I mean, I came home.
Speaker:
00:21:34
I thought, boy, that was fun.
Speaker:
00:21:36
What a great opportunity.
Speaker:
00:21:37
I got to meet all these
people and I can, you know,
Speaker:
00:21:39
and they'll be fun to see the show.
Speaker:
00:21:42
And I get a call a week later and said,
Speaker:
00:21:44
we'd like you to be the
co-music director of the show.
Speaker:
00:21:47
And I was like, pinch me.
- That's amazing.
Speaker:
00:21:50
- I must be dreaming.
Speaker:
00:21:51
So the gentleman that was going to be
Speaker:
00:21:54
the co-music director,
Speaker:
00:21:55
he got really busy with something else.
Speaker:
00:21:56
I don't know how you get so busy
Speaker:
00:21:58
that you walk away from the Olympics,
Speaker:
00:21:59
but he completed all the
arranging that he was gonna do
Speaker:
00:22:02
and he went on to something else.
Speaker:
00:22:03
So when it came time to actually recording
Speaker:
00:22:06
and doing the show,
Speaker:
00:22:08
I was the sole music director on that
Speaker:
00:22:10
and then the closing ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:22:13
I mean, there was a very important piece
Speaker:
00:22:15
in the opening ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:22:17
It was called the run through time.
Speaker:
00:22:19
(dramatic music)
Speaker:
00:22:32
It's a very important piece
from the opening ceremonies
Speaker:
00:22:35
where they were gonna have
runners coming out with flags
Speaker:
00:22:38
from each city that had hosted the games
Speaker:
00:22:40
because the Atlanta Olympics
was the 100th anniversary
Speaker:
00:22:43
of the modern Olympic Games.
Speaker:
00:22:46
So it was called the Centennial Games.
Speaker:
00:22:48
And my music was supposed to
capture the feeling of running
Speaker:
00:22:52
and then build and build so that it would,
Speaker:
00:22:54
when it finally got to 1996, Atlanta,
Speaker:
00:22:58
and the crowd would just go crazy
Speaker:
00:23:00
and there'd be this big moment.
Speaker:
00:23:01
And the timing that I had to go with,
Speaker:
00:23:03
I mean, was Don standing on
a track recording his voice
Speaker:
00:23:08
saying when each city would come in
Speaker:
00:23:10
and there was a rhythm to it.
Speaker:
00:23:12
And then I went running and got,
Speaker:
00:23:15
okay, what kind of
music goes with running?
Speaker:
00:23:17
Okay, and I came up with that.
Speaker:
00:23:20
And I managed to put that chord in
Speaker:
00:23:22
that I was mentioning,
the Olympic ring chord.
Speaker:
00:23:24
That's in that piece.
Speaker:
00:23:27
And it worked so well that we
ended up using a version of it
Speaker:
00:23:33
in the closing ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:23:34
But it was a great
process of collaboration
Speaker:
00:23:39
but it all came about.
Speaker:
00:23:41
I'm at these meetings, right?
Speaker:
00:23:43
Where I'm just there as an advisor
Speaker:
00:23:45
and I'm standing at
the craft service table
Speaker:
00:23:47
getting a cup of coffee and Don walks by.
Speaker:
00:23:49
And I just said, gosh, Don,
Speaker:
00:23:51
that explanation about that segment
Speaker:
00:23:52
where the run through time,
Speaker:
00:23:53
boy, that is gonna be an
amazing, amazing segment.
Speaker:
00:23:56
He goes, why don't you
write the music for it?
Speaker:
00:23:58
And then he just walked away.
Speaker:
00:23:59
And I was like, really?
Speaker:
00:24:01
- Sure, why not?
Speaker:
00:24:02
Sure.
- Okay.
Speaker:
00:24:03
- Let me get on that right away.
Speaker:
00:24:05
- But he, I mean, bless his heart.
Speaker:
00:24:07
He saw something in me that allowed me
Speaker:
00:24:10
to really grow and develop.
Speaker:
00:24:13
- That's amazing.
Speaker:
00:24:16
Well, so I wanna transition into talking
Speaker:
00:24:21
about just the changes
that your industry has had
Speaker:
00:24:25
over the last several decades
or years, months even.
Speaker:
00:24:31
Technology has been a huge
topic within your industry,
Speaker:
00:24:35
within the creative industry overall,
Speaker:
00:24:38
in terms of how do you guard
your creative authenticity
Speaker:
00:24:42
while embracing things like AI?
Speaker:
00:24:45
So I would love to hear your take
Speaker:
00:24:49
on the things that you have witnessed
Speaker:
00:24:51
and how maybe you
approach new technologies
Speaker:
00:24:54
and the impact it might have
on your creative endeavors.
Speaker:
00:24:58
- Well, when I first started,
Speaker:
00:25:01
it was before computers entered into it.
Speaker:
00:25:04
It was all pencil and paper,
and you create it on paper,
Speaker:
00:25:10
and then you had to know well enough
Speaker:
00:25:12
that it would sound proper
Speaker:
00:25:14
when you brought an
orchestra in to play it.
Speaker:
00:25:16
It was this moment of truth
Speaker:
00:25:18
when the orchestra played
it for the first time.
Speaker:
00:25:22
Since then, we have literally
a music technology language,
Speaker:
00:25:28
MIDI, Musical Instrument
Digital Implementation,
Speaker:
00:25:31
has been created,
Speaker:
00:25:33
and it allows us to be able to
input things into a computer
Speaker:
00:25:39
and sculpt it and change it
Speaker:
00:25:41
and hear what it's going to sound like.
Speaker:
00:25:43
And it's been an amazingly wonderful tool,
Speaker:
00:25:46
but it requires a composer
to completely change.
Speaker:
00:25:49
I don't use a pencil and paper anymore.
Speaker:
00:25:51
I compose directly into the computer.
Speaker:
00:25:53
And that was a huge step for
me to be able to do that.
Speaker:
00:25:59
'Cause I'm not a great pianist.
Speaker:
00:26:01
I'm far from it.
Speaker:
00:26:02
I would never play in public,
Speaker:
00:26:05
and I think my little rendition-
Speaker:
00:26:08
- I have a hard time believing that,
Speaker:
00:26:09
considering you have the
piano right next to you.
Speaker:
00:26:10
- I would not have, literally,
Speaker:
00:26:14
there's not a day goes by
Speaker:
00:26:15
I don't wish I played piano better,
Speaker:
00:26:19
but it's required if you're
going to be in the business now
Speaker:
00:26:23
in order to put information
into the computer.
Speaker:
00:26:25
And it's a great thing
Speaker:
00:26:26
because it not only allows me to hear it
Speaker:
00:26:29
as I'm sculpting it and changing it,
Speaker:
00:26:31
and I can change a tempo,
I can change a note,
Speaker:
00:26:35
I can change it from the
melody being in this instrument
Speaker:
00:26:38
to another instrument.
Speaker:
00:26:39
And the digital samples have
become very sophisticated
Speaker:
00:26:42
and we can really do
wonderful things with it.
Speaker:
00:26:46
But it also allows me then
to play it for the filmmaker
Speaker:
00:26:49
or the director or whoever,
Speaker:
00:26:51
and then they can make a comment about it.
Speaker:
00:26:54
So it is an important process,
Speaker:
00:26:58
part of the process,
Speaker:
00:26:59
to be able to not only
know this language enough
Speaker:
00:27:02
to be able to compose it,
Speaker:
00:27:03
but you have to be able to
create very sophisticated,
Speaker:
00:27:06
real sounding demos for the filmmaker
Speaker:
00:27:09
to be able to respond to it.
Speaker:
00:27:11
And that has been very, very
useful for them, as well as us,
Speaker:
00:27:16
that we've been able to bring
Speaker:
00:27:17
them into the creative process.
Speaker:
00:27:20
But I knew a lot of composers
Speaker:
00:27:22
that were starting when I started,
Speaker:
00:27:24
composers that were in that
first class that I took
Speaker:
00:27:26
that wanted to pursue it.
Speaker:
00:27:28
And they just could not make that leap
Speaker:
00:27:30
over that chasm into the next language.
Speaker:
00:27:33
And they're not working now.
Speaker:
00:27:34
They're not doing it.
Speaker:
00:27:37
And it is constantly changing.
Speaker:
00:27:39
It is the most, I think, the
most difficult part of it.
Speaker:
00:27:44
And what I tell my students,
Speaker:
00:27:46
and anything I tell my
students, I'm telling myself,
Speaker:
00:27:50
find a process, find the
tools that work for you.
Speaker:
00:27:53
And don't feel like you
have to reinvent yourself
Speaker:
00:27:55
every six months because
some new bit of software
Speaker:
00:27:58
just came out.
Speaker:
00:27:59
Find what works for you and add to it.
Speaker:
00:28:02
I mean, you don't wanna become
a hermit and not change.
Speaker:
00:28:05
But the basic composing tools that we use,
Speaker:
00:28:12
you should find one that works for you.
Speaker:
00:28:14
And barring some, the program
doesn't exist anymore,
Speaker:
00:28:19
which happens occasionally,
Speaker:
00:28:21
or something just so new
and wonderful comes out
Speaker:
00:28:24
that it changes everything.
Speaker:
00:28:26
Elastic is the word I use
a lot with my students.
Speaker:
00:28:29
You have to remain elastic so that you,
Speaker:
00:28:33
if something comes along,
you are able to change.
Speaker:
00:28:36
Now, if you're a John Williams,
which there's only one,
Speaker:
00:28:40
but if you are a John
Williams caliber talent,
Speaker:
00:28:42
then you can do whatever you wanna do.
Speaker:
00:28:44
John still writes with a pencil and paper
Speaker:
00:28:46
and at his piano and his drafting table.
Speaker:
00:28:49
And he writes exactly the same way he did
Speaker:
00:28:51
in the late '50s when he first started.
Speaker:
00:28:53
Well, he can do that
because he's John Williams.
Speaker:
00:28:56
But the rest of us, we have to,
Speaker:
00:28:58
if other composers are presenting demos
Speaker:
00:29:01
that they produce in their studio,
Speaker:
00:29:02
well, then you better
be able to do it too,
Speaker:
00:29:04
or you're not going to work.
Speaker:
00:29:06
- Right.
Speaker:
00:29:07
When it was really interesting,
Speaker:
00:29:08
I was reading this article just expressing
Speaker:
00:29:11
how music producers, how they're evolving
Speaker:
00:29:14
with AI in particular.
Speaker:
00:29:16
And it's a great productivity tool.
Speaker:
00:29:19
They can use it to correct vocal pitches.
Speaker:
00:29:21
The Beatles actually a year or two ago
Speaker:
00:29:24
used AI to isolate John
Lennon's voice from a 1978 demo.
Speaker:
00:29:30
And they wouldn't be able to
do that without those tools.
Speaker:
00:29:34
But at the same time,
there's this delicate balance
Speaker:
00:29:37
you're always kind of dancing on.
Speaker:
00:29:40
That's great, but how do you remain true
Speaker:
00:29:42
and authentic to the human creation piece
Speaker:
00:29:45
and pulling that human emotion?
Speaker:
00:29:46
'Cause AI can't do that yet.
Speaker:
00:29:48
And I don't think it can for a while.
Speaker:
00:29:51
But how do you strike that balance
Speaker:
00:29:55
of just continuing to remind your students
Speaker:
00:29:57
or remind yourself of
how do you remain human
Speaker:
00:30:01
and thus very visceral
experience of creating music?
Speaker:
00:30:07
- Well, the first answer I'm gonna say
Speaker:
00:30:09
is that I think we haven't seen enough yet
Speaker:
00:30:13
to make a definitive answer to that.
Speaker:
00:30:16
I think the world is waiting.
Speaker:
00:30:18
I think literally in the
next year or two or three,
Speaker:
00:30:21
in terms of what I do, film
music, media composition,
Speaker:
00:30:27
I think things are gonna really change
Speaker:
00:30:28
'cause there's some people
working on some software
Speaker:
00:30:31
that is going to bust this wide open.
Speaker:
00:30:36
And that part of- - What software?
Speaker:
00:30:38
- Well, software that you
could literally program
Speaker:
00:30:40
in different styles of
composing and then just tell it,
Speaker:
00:30:44
I want an action cue.
Speaker:
00:30:46
I want it this fast.
Speaker:
00:30:47
I want it on a level 6.7 as
far as how dangerous it sounds.
Speaker:
00:30:53
Boom, there it is.
Speaker:
00:30:55
And while that may be
great for a filmmaker
Speaker:
00:30:58
or a low budget producer
or something that,
Speaker:
00:31:02
wow, I can get a score by
just typing in some numbers,
Speaker:
00:31:07
it takes away the creative process.
Speaker:
00:31:11
And it's like buying a dress off the rack
Speaker:
00:31:15
or having a dress designed just for you,
Speaker:
00:31:17
that only you have it.
Speaker:
00:31:19
So it has, every time
humanity has made giant leaps,
Speaker:
00:31:25
the next technological leap,
Speaker:
00:31:27
there's always been some negative
Speaker:
00:31:29
that comes along with it.
Speaker:
00:31:31
What I worry about with
this type of technology
Speaker:
00:31:35
is it's not gonna
replace the John Williams
Speaker:
00:31:38
or the Hans Zimmers, it won't.
Speaker:
00:31:40
Because those films and
that level of production
Speaker:
00:31:45
is always gonna want that
collaborative exchange
Speaker:
00:31:49
between the composer.
Speaker:
00:31:51
Where I fear that it's
going to take away from
Speaker:
00:31:53
is the low budget stuff
Speaker:
00:31:55
that frankly the audience
isn't really caring about.
Speaker:
00:31:58
That's the work that young
composers need and would get.
Speaker:
00:32:04
And if you take that level away,
Speaker:
00:32:07
the effect is gonna be there.
Speaker:
00:32:08
There is definitely going
to be a ripple from that.
Speaker:
00:32:12
But that's what I worry about
Speaker:
00:32:14
because it's just human nature.
Speaker:
00:32:15
If I can get something for
a lot less, a lot quicker,
Speaker:
00:32:19
they're gonna get it.
Speaker:
00:32:20
And you can't put that
genie back in the bottle.
Speaker:
00:32:24
- Well, and so I guess to that note,
Speaker:
00:32:26
as you're having, you're seeing,
Speaker:
00:32:28
I'm assuming it's April now,
Speaker:
00:32:31
you have another
graduating class coming up.
Speaker:
00:32:34
I mean, what are the things
that you're telling them
Speaker:
00:32:36
to keep in mind as they kind of,
Speaker:
00:32:40
maybe they're heading out to
LA, maybe they're not, but.
Speaker:
00:32:45
- I've got five that are graduating
Speaker:
00:32:47
and all five of them wanna go to LA.
Speaker:
00:32:50
I tell them to be prepared.
Speaker:
00:32:53
You know, don't expect
to be getting lucrative,
Speaker:
00:32:57
you know, A-list work right away.
Speaker:
00:33:00
And I said, mainly because
Speaker:
00:33:01
you're probably not ready for it yet.
Speaker:
00:33:03
I mean, there's only so much
I can teach you in two years.
Speaker:
00:33:06
You're gonna go through
this apprentice period
Speaker:
00:33:09
and hopefully they will
find an opportunity
Speaker:
00:33:12
to be an assistant or an
apprentice to somebody.
Speaker:
00:33:15
And if they don't, then
at least find composers
Speaker:
00:33:18
that will allow them to come to sessions,
Speaker:
00:33:20
that will allow them to
come over to their studio
Speaker:
00:33:22
and watch them work and
talk with the assistants
Speaker:
00:33:25
that they do have.
Speaker:
00:33:27
I talk about, you know,
Speaker:
00:33:28
you have to be pleasant to work with.
Speaker:
00:33:31
You have to have a personality
Speaker:
00:33:32
that makes people feel
comfortable with you.
Speaker:
00:33:36
I'll present scenarios like, okay,
Speaker:
00:33:39
what would happen if this happened to you?
Speaker:
00:33:41
How would you deal with that?
Speaker:
00:33:43
Another important part
of my curriculum here is
Speaker:
00:33:47
we don't have a film school here
Speaker:
00:33:48
at the Eastman School of Music,
Speaker:
00:33:50
but there's a school nearby,
Speaker:
00:33:51
the Rochester Institute of Technology
Speaker:
00:33:53
has a great film school and
a great animation school
Speaker:
00:33:56
and video game developing
school, world renowned.
Speaker:
00:33:59
And we have a great relationship with them
Speaker:
00:34:03
and my students score their student films.
Speaker:
00:34:05
And so now they're getting the experience
Speaker:
00:34:08
of working with a director
Speaker:
00:34:09
that may not know how to
explain what it is they want,
Speaker:
00:34:12
or, you know, they don't like
something that they wrote
Speaker:
00:34:15
and they can't tell you what to do better,
Speaker:
00:34:17
but they just want you to
do something different.
Speaker:
00:34:19
But the, you know, dealing with adversity
Speaker:
00:34:23
is what I first talked to them about.
Speaker:
00:34:27
And being the type of person
Speaker:
00:34:30
that people want to trust you with that,
Speaker:
00:34:33
the way Don Mischer trusted
me with, you know, so much.
Speaker:
00:34:37
- Yeah, well, thank you.
Speaker:
00:34:40
I appreciate your time today.
Speaker:
00:34:42
- It has been a lot of
fun sharing this with you.
Speaker:
00:34:45
Thank you very much for asking.
Speaker:
00:34:48
- Well, that's it for today's
episode of "The Rough Draft."
Speaker:
00:34:50
To learn more about our guests
Speaker:
00:34:52
and to find links and resources
related to the conversation,
Speaker:
00:34:54
check out Rev.com/podcast.
Speaker:
00:34:58
If you enjoyed today's conversation,
Speaker:
00:34:59
be sure to rate and subscribe
Speaker:
00:35:01
in order to stay up to date
with the latest episodes.
Speaker:
00:35:04
Thank you for listening,
Speaker:
00:35:05
and we look forward to seeing you again
Speaker:
00:35:06
on the next episode of "The Rough Draft."
00:00:00
- And yet we react to it,
Speaker:
00:00:02
and I hope they never
figure out that mystery.
Speaker:
00:00:05
- It was watched by an
estimated 3.5 billion viewers.
Speaker:
00:00:09
- It's like their child suddenly said mama
Speaker:
00:00:12
for the first time.
Speaker:
00:00:13
- And then all of a
sudden you find yourself
Speaker:
00:00:16
touring the world.
Speaker:
00:00:17
- And you play it for them,
Speaker:
00:00:19
and they go, "This is not working."
Speaker:
00:00:21
And so there I was
sitting with the two guys
Speaker:
00:00:23
that created Cirque du Soleil,
Speaker:
00:00:25
and world-renowned choreographers,
Speaker:
00:00:28
and designers, and whatnot,
Speaker:
00:00:29
and there I am,
Speaker:
00:00:30
and you can't put that
genie back in the bottle.
Speaker:
00:00:33
- I'm Kendell Kelton,
Speaker:
00:00:35
and today I'm your host
on "The Rough Draft."
Speaker:
00:00:37
In this episode, I sit
down with Mark Watters,
Speaker:
00:00:39
a six-time Emmy award-winning
composer and conductor,
Speaker:
00:00:42
renowned for his work in
film, television, video games,
Speaker:
00:00:46
global tours such as
"Star Wars" and "Concert,"
Speaker:
00:00:48
and major events like the Olympics.
Speaker:
00:00:51
Mark's career spans iconic Disney classics
Speaker:
00:00:54
and collaborations with
artists like John Legend,
Speaker:
00:00:56
Mary J. Blige, and Beyonce.
Speaker:
00:00:59
In addition, Mark serves
as an academic leader
Speaker:
00:01:01
at the prestigious Eastman
University in New York.
Speaker:
00:01:04
Join us today as we discuss
his creative process,
Speaker:
00:01:07
how to embrace technology
while guarding authenticity,
Speaker:
00:01:10
and the deeply emotional
resonance of music
Speaker:
00:01:12
across all content mediums.
Speaker:
00:01:14
All right, here's my
conversation with Mark Watters.
Speaker:
00:01:19
(upbeat music)
Speaker:
00:01:28
I have a four-year-old son,
Speaker:
00:01:30
and I've begun noticing
Speaker:
00:01:35
just how deeply he responds
to music and musical cues.
Speaker:
00:01:39
And it's pretty remarkable to witness
Speaker:
00:01:42
just how music is already shaping
Speaker:
00:01:43
his little deep emotional connection,
Speaker:
00:01:46
even at such a young age.
Speaker:
00:01:48
And an example of this
was we recently took him
Speaker:
00:01:51
to Disney World,
Speaker:
00:01:52
and we went to see the
live action performance
Speaker:
00:01:56
of "Indiana Jones," which in retrospect
Speaker:
00:01:57
may have been a poor parenting decision
Speaker:
00:02:00
because there was some
scary moments there.
Speaker:
00:02:04
But it was really neat because, you know,
Speaker:
00:02:09
that famous "The Raiders March,"
Speaker:
00:02:10
that famous score that,
Speaker:
00:02:13
♪ Dun-da-dun-dun, dun-da-dun ♪
Speaker:
00:02:16
That, as soon as that came on,
Speaker:
00:02:18
his entire being just lit up with wonder,
Speaker:
00:02:21
and he was so excited.
Speaker:
00:02:23
And I actually have a
recording of it on my phone,
Speaker:
00:02:25
and watching him and then
watching everybody else
Speaker:
00:02:28
in the audience, adults,
people my age, older,
Speaker:
00:02:32
folks who have seen it a dozen times,
Speaker:
00:02:34
everyone is still feeling the same thing.
Speaker:
00:02:36
Like, the second that sound comes on,
Speaker:
00:02:38
you can just feel it in
your soul, that excitement.
Speaker:
00:02:41
And then a few scenes later is
the big boulder coming down,
Speaker:
00:02:44
and that nervous anxiety,
Speaker:
00:02:46
you hear the trumpets
and the horns flare up,
Speaker:
00:02:50
and looking at Wyatt, he's just,
Speaker:
00:02:52
he's so nervous what's
gonna happen to Indy.
Speaker:
00:02:54
- Oh my God.
Speaker:
00:02:58
Hey, Chris are you okay?
Speaker:
00:03:00
Get up, you'll be okay, quick!
Speaker:
00:03:03
- And again, same thing,
everyone around, myself included,
Speaker:
00:03:06
has that kind of like
nervous excitement energy,
Speaker:
00:03:09
even though, spoiler alert,
we know what's gonna happen.
Speaker:
00:03:12
We know he's gonna make
it at the last minute.
Speaker:
00:03:14
But it was so neat to
re-kind of witness that
Speaker:
00:03:18
for the first time through his eyes,
Speaker:
00:03:19
but then also to realize that
impact of sound and music
Speaker:
00:03:23
in those moments.
Speaker:
00:03:24
And so, as somebody who has spent a career
Speaker:
00:03:28
kind of pulling that
tether between emotion
Speaker:
00:03:30
and music and trying to
find those special moments,
Speaker:
00:03:34
I'd love to hear a
little bit more from you
Speaker:
00:03:37
on your approach to finding
kind of that connection,
Speaker:
00:03:41
because again, like music
can change things in a second
Speaker:
00:03:46
emotionally for folks.
Speaker:
00:03:48
So I'd love to hear kind of your take.
Speaker:
00:03:51
- Well, again, I think I'm
gonna just be repeating
Speaker:
00:03:54
some of the things that you just said.
Speaker:
00:03:56
Music is incredibly important
Speaker:
00:03:57
to conveying a story,
Speaker:
00:04:03
because film is a two-dimensional entity.
Speaker:
00:04:07
And so by adding music,
Speaker:
00:04:10
it is built into us
that we respond to this.
Speaker:
00:04:13
And I will say it is a mystery
to me why we do respond.
Speaker:
00:04:17
What is it?
Speaker:
00:04:18
I mean, what is music?
Speaker:
00:04:19
It's just a vibration.
Speaker:
00:04:20
It's different pitches vibrating,
Speaker:
00:04:23
and yet we react to it.
Speaker:
00:04:24
And I hope they never
figure out that mystery.
Speaker:
00:04:28
I hope it always remains this unknown,
Speaker:
00:04:31
because it always should
be a creative journey
Speaker:
00:04:35
to find those right vibrations
that make that happen.
Speaker:
00:04:38
So that when you hear that wonderful theme
Speaker:
00:04:41
from Indiana Jones that
John Williams wrote,
Speaker:
00:04:43
it fits that character and
that scene and that moment.
Speaker:
00:04:47
And it brings back,
Speaker:
00:04:48
this is why film music
concerts are so popular,
Speaker:
00:04:51
because we can hear that music
Speaker:
00:04:53
and it takes us back to that
experience of seeing the film.
Speaker:
00:04:57
And now we've taken it
even to the next level,
Speaker:
00:04:59
because now orchestras
are performing the score
Speaker:
00:05:01
live to picture with the movie playing,
Speaker:
00:05:04
but the orchestra is
playing the music live.
Speaker:
00:05:07
And so we're getting
that visceral sensation
Speaker:
00:05:10
of the music being performed
right there in front of us,
Speaker:
00:05:13
not recorded and mixed in,
Speaker:
00:05:15
but right there in front of us.
Speaker:
00:05:17
And it's so exciting.
Speaker:
00:05:18
And I just think it's
a wonderful advancement
Speaker:
00:05:22
in what we've done.
Speaker:
00:05:23
I mean, I was at such
an impressionable age
Speaker:
00:05:26
when John Williams became a star with,
Speaker:
00:05:29
I graduated from college the summer
Speaker:
00:05:32
that "Star Wars" came out.
Speaker:
00:05:34
And that was followed by "E.T."
and the other "Star Wars"
Speaker:
00:05:38
films and "Close Encounters"
and "Indiana Jones."
Speaker:
00:05:41
And I fell in love with his music
Speaker:
00:05:43
and that's what inspired
me to pursue this,
Speaker:
00:05:47
right then and there.
Speaker:
00:05:48
I mean, and I had the
pleasure of telling John this,
Speaker:
00:05:51
"You're the reason I'm doing this."
Speaker:
00:05:54
And he was very sweet about
it and he was very touched.
Speaker:
00:05:56
- Instances where you had
that deep emotional connection
Speaker:
00:06:01
with music that influenced you?
Speaker:
00:06:02
I mean, you obviously just said it
Speaker:
00:06:03
with John Williams and "Star Wars"
Speaker:
00:06:05
and then all of a sudden you find yourself
Speaker:
00:06:07
touring the world.
Speaker:
00:06:09
Are there specific moments
and specific pieces of music
Speaker:
00:06:13
that you would say like still to this day
Speaker:
00:06:15
has that emotional resonance?
Speaker:
00:06:15
- The first time I can
remember being moved
Speaker:
00:06:19
by the music in a movie, I
was 14, I think, 13 or 14
Speaker:
00:06:25
when the 1968 production of
"Romeo and Juliet" came out,
Speaker:
00:06:32
directed by Franco Zeffirelli,
Speaker:
00:06:34
stars Olivia Hussey and Leonard Whiting.
Speaker:
00:06:37
It's a gorgeous movie and
the score is by Nino Rota,
Speaker:
00:06:42
who was the Italian composer
Speaker:
00:06:44
who wrote the score to "The Godfather."
Speaker:
00:06:45
Very famous Italian film composer.
Speaker:
00:06:48
And the melodies and the settings,
Speaker:
00:06:52
just like what you were
saying with "Indiana Jones,"
Speaker:
00:06:54
it just, it brought the
movie to life for me.
Speaker:
00:06:59
And I remember reacting to the music.
Speaker:
00:07:01
I mean, I was playing guitar at the time
Speaker:
00:07:04
and I was envisioning being a
rock and roll guitar player,
Speaker:
00:07:09
but this music was just so
gorgeous and so fit the movie.
Speaker:
00:07:14
And I had no idea that
I would ever pursue this
Speaker:
00:07:18
as a career that was way beyond,
Speaker:
00:07:20
even when I was in college
and studying music,
Speaker:
00:07:23
I was a saxophone major
and I was studying jazz
Speaker:
00:07:26
and classical music.
Speaker:
00:07:28
I didn't have any inkling at all
Speaker:
00:07:30
that I would pursue film composing
Speaker:
00:07:33
and TV composing as a profession.
Speaker:
00:07:35
That happened subsequently
Speaker:
00:07:38
after going to a few more
John Williams concerts
Speaker:
00:07:40
and movies and whatnot.
Speaker:
00:07:43
But, and it, we don't
have to get into this,
Speaker:
00:07:47
but I mean, I took a course,
Speaker:
00:07:48
a beginner course in film
scoring, just purely as a lark.
Speaker:
00:07:52
I didn't think that
anything would come from it.
Speaker:
00:07:54
I could have easily
taken a watercolor course
Speaker:
00:07:57
or a horticulture course or something.
Speaker:
00:08:00
It was at the UCLA extension,
Speaker:
00:08:02
which was a school of
continuing education.
Speaker:
00:08:05
And I'm so grateful that I took it.
Speaker:
00:08:06
It was this introduction to film scoring
Speaker:
00:08:09
and it was taught by a wonderful man
Speaker:
00:08:10
who allowed me to write a piece of music
Speaker:
00:08:13
for a piece of an episode
of "Hawaii Five-O."
Speaker:
00:08:16
And it just changed my life.
Speaker:
00:08:19
'Cause I had that moment of where music
Speaker:
00:08:21
and visual come together and become one.
Speaker:
00:08:25
And it makes the visual just come to life
Speaker:
00:08:28
in a way that it wouldn't
if you just sat there.
Speaker:
00:08:30
I mean, I love going into
schools and I did this,
Speaker:
00:08:35
you know, I've done this several times
Speaker:
00:08:36
where I've played scenes from TV shows
Speaker:
00:08:39
and when it's with young
kids, it's usually a cartoon
Speaker:
00:08:43
and I play it without music.
Speaker:
00:08:44
And it's amazing how six-year-olds
will look at it like,
Speaker:
00:08:49
"Wow, it's just not the same."
Speaker:
00:08:51
And then I'll play the same
scene again with the music.
Speaker:
00:08:54
And they're like, "Oh my God, that's it."
Speaker:
00:08:56
And then I'll play it
with the wrong music.
Speaker:
00:08:59
I'll play it with music
that's totally different
Speaker:
00:09:01
than what it's supposed to be.
Speaker:
00:09:03
And they totally react to it.
Speaker:
00:09:05
I mean, it is built into us as our DNA
Speaker:
00:09:09
that we react to this.
Speaker:
00:09:10
And it's, you know, just a wonderful thing
Speaker:
00:09:13
that we've only discovered this, you know,
Speaker:
00:09:15
as far as film is concerned, you know,
Speaker:
00:09:16
in the last hundred years.
Speaker:
00:09:18
- Have you ever come
across that in your career
Speaker:
00:09:21
where perhaps the music just didn't work,
Speaker:
00:09:24
that you were, you know-
Speaker:
00:09:25
- Are you talking about my
music or somebody else's music?
Speaker:
00:09:27
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yours or both.
Speaker:
00:09:29
- Well, there's two answers to that.
Speaker:
00:09:32
I tell my students here at
the Eastman School of Music
Speaker:
00:09:36
that I love when I see a
score that's not working.
Speaker:
00:09:39
I just love it.
- Oh, really?
Speaker:
00:09:40
- 'Cause it's so, it's encouraging to me.
Speaker:
00:09:44
And I like-
- How so?
Speaker:
00:09:46
- Well, because it just
goes to show that, you know,
Speaker:
00:09:50
there are people out there doing this
Speaker:
00:09:52
that need more training.
Speaker:
00:09:54
And usually it's the filmmaker.
Speaker:
00:09:56
It's not necessarily the composer.
Speaker:
00:09:59
I'm always amazed when film
schools do not teach music
Speaker:
00:10:05
and not making music, but
how do you tell a composer
Speaker:
00:10:08
what it is that you should be telling them
Speaker:
00:10:11
to get the score that you want?
Speaker:
00:10:13
The language that you said,
Speaker:
00:10:15
you don't have to talk music language,
Speaker:
00:10:16
but you need to talk
storytelling language.
Speaker:
00:10:19
And then the other thing is that I,
Speaker:
00:10:22
there's never just one
way to score something.
Speaker:
00:10:25
There's always an interpretation.
Speaker:
00:10:27
And I've had, you know, we've all had,
Speaker:
00:10:31
every person that's done
this for any length of time
Speaker:
00:10:33
has had instances where
you write something
Speaker:
00:10:36
and you're just absolutely certain
Speaker:
00:10:37
it's gonna just blow them away.
Speaker:
00:10:40
And you bring it in and
you play it for them
Speaker:
00:10:42
and they go, this is not working.
Speaker:
00:10:44
And then it's like, whoa.
Speaker:
00:10:48
And this gets into, you know,
Speaker:
00:10:50
these are lessons that every
composer has dealt with
Speaker:
00:10:53
since, you know, the '20s
Speaker:
00:10:55
when composers first started
putting music to film.
Speaker:
00:10:59
How do you handle that?
Speaker:
00:11:00
'Cause you can't get insulted.
Speaker:
00:11:02
You can't get personal,
like, how dare you do that?
Speaker:
00:11:04
I wasted all this time.
Speaker:
00:11:06
And now you're telling
me it's not working.
Speaker:
00:11:07
You can't do that.
Speaker:
00:11:09
I often use the analogy of when,
Speaker:
00:11:12
if you had somebody come
and redesign your kitchen
Speaker:
00:11:15
and you tell them exactly
what it is you want
Speaker:
00:11:17
and they do it and they
said, no, that's not working.
Speaker:
00:11:19
Can you do it again?
Speaker:
00:11:20
And you don't pay them anymore
Speaker:
00:11:21
and you don't give them any more time
Speaker:
00:11:23
but they've got to redo the kitchen.
Speaker:
00:11:25
That doesn't happen.
Speaker:
00:11:26
But in film music, that
is the way it goes.
Speaker:
00:11:29
I mean, I've literally had cues
Speaker:
00:11:31
that I've rewritten seven or eight times
Speaker:
00:11:33
because it just wasn't working for them.
Speaker:
00:11:36
And it's very encouraging then
when I hear other composers
Speaker:
00:11:41
and composers far more successful
than me talk about this.
Speaker:
00:11:46
And John Williams, I've heard
John Williams talk about this.
Speaker:
00:11:50
I mean, to be a film composer,
to be a media composer,
Speaker:
00:11:54
whether it be video games
or television or film,
Speaker:
00:11:57
you have to really love collaborating.
Speaker:
00:11:59
I tell my students, look,
Speaker:
00:12:01
if you wanna write
whatever you wanna write,
Speaker:
00:12:03
be a concert composer, be
a rock and roll songwriter.
Speaker:
00:12:08
But if you wanna be a media composer,
Speaker:
00:12:10
you have to love the idea of
collaborating with somebody
Speaker:
00:12:14
where somebody is giving you a direction
Speaker:
00:12:16
and you then complete it.
Speaker:
00:12:18
- Well, so let's talk a little bit then
Speaker:
00:12:20
about your creative process,
Speaker:
00:12:22
because I mean, as you
were just explaining,
Speaker:
00:12:24
like you can put so much time
and effort into something
Speaker:
00:12:27
for it to never ever come to fruition.
Speaker:
00:12:30
In those instances, how do
you kind of move through them?
Speaker:
00:12:35
Like, what are the things
you try to lean into
Speaker:
00:12:37
or learn from?
Speaker:
00:12:38
How do you ensure that
it doesn't, you know,
Speaker:
00:12:41
take too much of a hit against your ego?
Speaker:
00:12:43
So like, especially for
people coming into this field,
Speaker:
00:12:45
which is incredibly
complicated and competitive,
Speaker:
00:12:49
how do you keep kind of pushing through?
Speaker:
00:12:52
- I suppose the good outweighs the bad.
Speaker:
00:12:55
You know, the thrill of writing something
Speaker:
00:12:59
and when you play it for the director
Speaker:
00:13:02
and suddenly they're, you know,
Speaker:
00:13:07
their efforts now have been
completed and fulfilled
Speaker:
00:13:13
because music really completes
the storytelling process
Speaker:
00:13:17
because it comes at the end,
Speaker:
00:13:19
it's one of the last things
that's added to the film
Speaker:
00:13:24
and they've been looking
at it for, you know,
Speaker:
00:13:26
weeks and months and whatever without it,
Speaker:
00:13:28
maybe they have a temp score,
Speaker:
00:13:30
but you know, when the real
score finally is put to it
Speaker:
00:13:34
and it, you know, it's like their child
Speaker:
00:13:37
suddenly said mama for the first time.
Speaker:
00:13:40
It's just like, oh my gosh,
Speaker:
00:13:42
thank you so much for doing that.
Speaker:
00:13:44
That is such a fulfilling step
Speaker:
00:13:47
because I love collaborating, I really do.
Speaker:
00:13:53
- Let's actually talk about that a bit
Speaker:
00:13:54
because I don't think
people quite understand
Speaker:
00:13:57
what happens behind the scenes
Speaker:
00:13:59
and when somebody like yourself
is brought into a project.
Speaker:
00:14:02
And so can you walk through
kind of that process
Speaker:
00:14:06
of when you are approached and
typically kind of that rhythm
Speaker:
00:14:12
that you experienced, maybe we'll use film
Speaker:
00:14:14
or if there's, you
know, something specific
Speaker:
00:14:17
that you think is a little
bit more interesting
Speaker:
00:14:18
like video gaming.
Speaker:
00:14:19
- Well, it's slightly different,
Speaker:
00:14:21
but I mean, usually because music is
Speaker:
00:14:23
in the post-production phase of it,
Speaker:
00:14:26
editing and the ADR, the
sound and all that is done,
Speaker:
00:14:29
you know, after the piece has been filmed.
Speaker:
00:14:35
The lesser talented filmmakers
Speaker:
00:14:37
don't think about music until then.
Speaker:
00:14:39
The talented filmmakers
are thinking about it
Speaker:
00:14:42
when the script is being written.
Speaker:
00:14:43
They will write scenes knowing that music
Speaker:
00:14:46
is going to do this.
Speaker:
00:14:48
I mean, one of my favorite scenes
Speaker:
00:14:51
and it's a movie that
I'm sure you've seen,
Speaker:
00:14:53
the ending of "The Good
and the Bad and the Ugly"
Speaker:
00:14:56
when they're standing, the
three of them in that cemetery
Speaker:
00:15:00
and they're just staring each other down
Speaker:
00:15:02
and it goes on forever and ever and ever.
Speaker:
00:15:04
And the music is building and building.
Speaker:
00:15:07
Imagine what that scene would
look like with no music.
Speaker:
00:15:09
And that's what the filmmaker
and the actors were seeing.
Speaker:
00:15:14
The filmmaker, Sergio Leone,
was so brilliant with music
Speaker:
00:15:18
that he knew that his
composer, Ennio Morricone,
Speaker:
00:15:21
would fill that up and just
fill the emotion of the scene.
Speaker:
00:15:28
That's great filmmaking when
the filmmaker knows how music,
Speaker:
00:15:33
you know, Steven Spielberg
and John Williams,
Speaker:
00:15:35
he just knows they'll film this scene
Speaker:
00:15:38
knowing that music is
going to just take it
Speaker:
00:15:41
to another level.
Speaker:
00:15:44
You know, I hear stories of filmmakers
Speaker:
00:15:46
bringing composers to the set
Speaker:
00:15:48
and having them walk around the set
Speaker:
00:15:51
and absorb, you know, because
it is a creative process
Speaker:
00:15:54
and you need to get those wheels going.
Speaker:
00:15:59
And so many times, you
know, I've been, you know,
Speaker:
00:16:02
particularly if it's a
score that is being replaced
Speaker:
00:16:06
and that happens more
often than you would think,
Speaker:
00:16:09
this composer that's brought
in to replace the score,
Speaker:
00:16:12
the thrown out score has
very little time to do it.
Speaker:
00:16:15
And so they've got to suddenly
come up with a creative plan
Speaker:
00:16:21
you know, what is gonna
be the DNA of the score?
Speaker:
00:16:24
And then, you know, forget
about what notes to choose
Speaker:
00:16:27
and what instruments
are going to play them.
Speaker:
00:16:29
What kind of music do we wanna do?
Speaker:
00:16:32
And if I can make a break, hang on,
Speaker:
00:16:36
I'm gonna pull a book out
just to give you an example.
Speaker:
00:16:38
- Okay. (laughs)
Speaker:
00:16:44
- I love this book.
Speaker:
00:16:46
- What is it?
Speaker:
00:16:47
"Horn Music Rejected Film Scores," ooh.
Speaker:
00:16:50
- Look how thick this book is. (laughs)
Speaker:
00:16:52
- I like it, I like it.
Speaker:
00:16:54
- It's all stories of scores
Speaker:
00:16:56
and scores that are famous
movies, big movies that,
Speaker:
00:17:00
you know, this big time composer wrote it
Speaker:
00:17:02
and it didn't work and they
brought somebody else in.
Speaker:
00:17:06
And it is-
Speaker:
00:17:06
- But that's so funny
'cause everyone thinks
Speaker:
00:17:08
that if you're like Hans
Zimmer or John Williams,
Speaker:
00:17:11
you're gonna succeed every single time.
Speaker:
00:17:13
- Yeah.
Speaker:
00:17:14
- And that's not true.
Speaker:
00:17:15
- No, it's not.
Speaker:
00:17:16
Every major composer with the
exception of John Williams
Speaker:
00:17:20
has had a score thrown out.
Speaker:
00:17:21
In fact, the saying is you
haven't made it to the big time
Speaker:
00:17:24
until you've had a score thrown out.
Speaker:
00:17:27
- I love that.
Speaker:
00:17:27
- Yeah.
Speaker:
00:17:28
- I love that.
Speaker:
00:17:29
Have you had a score thrown out?
Speaker:
00:17:31
- No, I've not had a
whole score thrown out,
Speaker:
00:17:33
but I have had a couple of
cues that when I saw the film
Speaker:
00:17:38
or watched the TV show and
suddenly there was no music there
Speaker:
00:17:41
and I go, "What happened?"
Speaker:
00:17:42
They go, "Yeah, we didn't
really like that cue."
Speaker:
00:17:44
Oh, okay.
Speaker:
00:17:46
And a lot of times a music
editor can doctor something
Speaker:
00:17:48
together and put something in.
Speaker:
00:17:50
And that happens all the time.
Speaker:
00:17:54
- So I wanna talk about what I know
Speaker:
00:17:57
when we were chatting
pre-recording about something
Speaker:
00:18:02
that was really, really special for you,
Speaker:
00:18:04
a collaboration and an effort
that you are very proud of.
Speaker:
00:18:07
And that's the Summer '96 Olympics,
Speaker:
00:18:11
which you worked on in addition
to the Winter '02 Olympics.
Speaker:
00:18:16
And a fun fact that I was
reading about the '96 Olympics,
Speaker:
00:18:22
it was watched by an estimated,
Speaker:
00:18:24
the opening ceremony in particular,
Speaker:
00:18:26
it was watched by an estimated
Speaker:
00:18:28
3.5 billion viewers worldwide.
Speaker:
00:18:31
And that's in 1996.
Speaker:
00:18:32
And that was the most watched TV event
Speaker:
00:18:35
only until two years ago when
Queen Elizabeth had passed.
Speaker:
00:18:38
And so that more tuned in for her funeral.
Speaker:
00:18:42
But to hold that for so long
and to be a part of a moment
Speaker:
00:18:46
like that, I'd like us to spend some time
Speaker:
00:18:48
just talking about how
that opportunity came about
Speaker:
00:18:51
for you in particular,
Speaker:
00:18:53
and anything unique about the process
Speaker:
00:18:57
you went through for that.
Speaker:
00:19:00
- Well, I got recommended to the producer,
Speaker:
00:19:03
a man named Don Mischer,
Speaker:
00:19:04
who was producing the opening
and closing ceremonies
Speaker:
00:19:08
by the man who was the administrative head
Speaker:
00:19:12
of the Atlanta Symphony,
Speaker:
00:19:14
which was going to be the
host symphony for the show.
Speaker:
00:19:17
And this was over a year before the games.
Speaker:
00:19:21
And Don happened to be at
a, I think a reception,
Speaker:
00:19:26
and the man named Mitch
Gershenfeld was talking to him.
Speaker:
00:19:30
And Don got to talking about the music
Speaker:
00:19:32
and how the symphony
would be a part of it.
Speaker:
00:19:33
And Don mentioned to him, he said,
Speaker:
00:19:35
"We're gonna need a
different music director
Speaker:
00:19:37
than I've normally used in the past,
Speaker:
00:19:39
because we're gonna need,
Speaker:
00:19:40
there's a lot of storytelling
in the opening ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:19:42
We're going to be telling
history and stories and whatnot.
Speaker:
00:19:47
And I need to get a different,
Speaker:
00:19:49
I think I'm gonna need to get
a different music director."
Speaker:
00:19:51
'Cause he had used a particular person
Speaker:
00:19:54
for many of his projects.
Speaker:
00:19:56
And Mitch had conducted a
production of "Babes in Toyland"
Speaker:
00:20:02
that I had redone all
the arrangements for.
Speaker:
00:20:04
I didn't compose anything.
Speaker:
00:20:05
This is Victor Herbert's famous operetta.
Speaker:
00:20:10
But they had wanted to give it a facelift
Speaker:
00:20:14
and a modernization.
Speaker:
00:20:15
And I put in a lot of storytelling in it
Speaker:
00:20:17
that was part of the story.
Speaker:
00:20:20
And he was very impressed with that.
Speaker:
00:20:21
So he told Don about it.
Speaker:
00:20:23
So I got asked to travel to,
Speaker:
00:20:25
I get this call out of nowhere.
Speaker:
00:20:26
I'd never even heard of him.
Speaker:
00:20:28
And I get this call out of
nowhere to travel to Atlanta
Speaker:
00:20:31
one year before the opening ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:20:33
And they only wanted me
there to sit around the table
Speaker:
00:20:36
with all the other creative
heads and offer ideas.
Speaker:
00:20:39
That was it.
Speaker:
00:20:40
Just if something comes into
your head, just tell them.
Speaker:
00:20:42
And so there I was
sitting with the two guys
Speaker:
00:20:44
that created Cirque du Soleil
Speaker:
00:20:46
and world-renowned
choreographers and designers
Speaker:
00:20:50
and whatnot.
Speaker:
00:20:51
And there I am, you know.
Speaker:
00:20:52
And, you know, 'cause I don't
Speaker:
00:20:54
know how to keep my mouth shut.
Speaker:
00:20:55
I started throwing out ideas.
Speaker:
00:20:57
How about this?
Speaker:
00:20:58
How about this?
Speaker:
00:20:59
You know, and let's do that.
Speaker:
00:20:59
And I had a keyboard with me.
Speaker:
00:21:03
And in my hotel room, I
came up with this neat chord
Speaker:
00:21:06
that if you took the five Olympic rings
Speaker:
00:21:08
and turn them on their side
and put it on a music staff,
Speaker:
00:21:11
it creates a chord.
Speaker:
00:21:12
And I played this chord
and they were like, wow,
Speaker:
00:21:14
this is so cool.
Speaker:
00:21:15
So-
- How did you come up
Speaker:
00:21:16
with that idea?
Speaker:
00:21:17
- I don't know, you know.
Speaker:
00:21:19
It just kind of popped me like,
Speaker:
00:21:21
hmm, these look like music notes.
Speaker:
00:21:22
How about I turn it on my side.
Speaker:
00:21:24
And it was.
(light piano music)
Speaker:
00:21:29
That's the chord.
Speaker:
00:21:30
And I get a call a week later.
Speaker:
00:21:33
You know, I mean, I came home.
Speaker:
00:21:34
I thought, boy, that was fun.
Speaker:
00:21:36
What a great opportunity.
Speaker:
00:21:37
I got to meet all these
people and I can, you know,
Speaker:
00:21:39
and they'll be fun to see the show.
Speaker:
00:21:42
And I get a call a week later and said,
Speaker:
00:21:44
we'd like you to be the
co-music director of the show.
Speaker:
00:21:47
And I was like, pinch me.
- That's amazing.
Speaker:
00:21:50
- I must be dreaming.
Speaker:
00:21:51
So the gentleman that was going to be
Speaker:
00:21:54
the co-music director,
Speaker:
00:21:55
he got really busy with something else.
Speaker:
00:21:56
I don't know how you get so busy
Speaker:
00:21:58
that you walk away from the Olympics,
Speaker:
00:21:59
but he completed all the
arranging that he was gonna do
Speaker:
00:22:02
and he went on to something else.
Speaker:
00:22:03
So when it came time to actually recording
Speaker:
00:22:06
and doing the show,
Speaker:
00:22:08
I was the sole music director on that
Speaker:
00:22:10
and then the closing ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:22:13
I mean, there was a very important piece
Speaker:
00:22:15
in the opening ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:22:17
It was called the run through time.
Speaker:
00:22:19
(dramatic music)
Speaker:
00:22:32
It's a very important piece
from the opening ceremonies
Speaker:
00:22:35
where they were gonna have
runners coming out with flags
Speaker:
00:22:38
from each city that had hosted the games
Speaker:
00:22:40
because the Atlanta Olympics
was the 100th anniversary
Speaker:
00:22:43
of the modern Olympic Games.
Speaker:
00:22:46
So it was called the Centennial Games.
Speaker:
00:22:48
And my music was supposed to
capture the feeling of running
Speaker:
00:22:52
and then build and build so that it would,
Speaker:
00:22:54
when it finally got to 1996, Atlanta,
Speaker:
00:22:58
and the crowd would just go crazy
Speaker:
00:23:00
and there'd be this big moment.
Speaker:
00:23:01
And the timing that I had to go with,
Speaker:
00:23:03
I mean, was Don standing on
a track recording his voice
Speaker:
00:23:08
saying when each city would come in
Speaker:
00:23:10
and there was a rhythm to it.
Speaker:
00:23:12
And then I went running and got,
Speaker:
00:23:15
okay, what kind of
music goes with running?
Speaker:
00:23:17
Okay, and I came up with that.
Speaker:
00:23:20
And I managed to put that chord in
Speaker:
00:23:22
that I was mentioning,
the Olympic ring chord.
Speaker:
00:23:24
That's in that piece.
Speaker:
00:23:27
And it worked so well that we
ended up using a version of it
Speaker:
00:23:33
in the closing ceremonies.
Speaker:
00:23:34
But it was a great
process of collaboration
Speaker:
00:23:39
but it all came about.
Speaker:
00:23:41
I'm at these meetings, right?
Speaker:
00:23:43
Where I'm just there as an advisor
Speaker:
00:23:45
and I'm standing at
the craft service table
Speaker:
00:23:47
getting a cup of coffee and Don walks by.
Speaker:
00:23:49
And I just said, gosh, Don,
Speaker:
00:23:51
that explanation about that segment
Speaker:
00:23:52
where the run through time,
Speaker:
00:23:53
boy, that is gonna be an
amazing, amazing segment.
Speaker:
00:23:56
He goes, why don't you
write the music for it?
Speaker:
00:23:58
And then he just walked away.
Speaker:
00:23:59
And I was like, really?
Speaker:
00:24:01
- Sure, why not?
Speaker:
00:24:02
Sure.
- Okay.
Speaker:
00:24:03
- Let me get on that right away.
Speaker:
00:24:05
- But he, I mean, bless his heart.
Speaker:
00:24:07
He saw something in me that allowed me
Speaker:
00:24:10
to really grow and develop.
Speaker:
00:24:13
- That's amazing.
Speaker:
00:24:16
Well, so I wanna transition into talking
Speaker:
00:24:21
about just the changes
that your industry has had
Speaker:
00:24:25
over the last several decades
or years, months even.
Speaker:
00:24:31
Technology has been a huge
topic within your industry,
Speaker:
00:24:35
within the creative industry overall,
Speaker:
00:24:38
in terms of how do you guard
your creative authenticity
Speaker:
00:24:42
while embracing things like AI?
Speaker:
00:24:45
So I would love to hear your take
Speaker:
00:24:49
on the things that you have witnessed
Speaker:
00:24:51
and how maybe you
approach new technologies
Speaker:
00:24:54
and the impact it might have
on your creative endeavors.
Speaker:
00:24:58
- Well, when I first started,
Speaker:
00:25:01
it was before computers entered into it.
Speaker:
00:25:04
It was all pencil and paper,
and you create it on paper,
Speaker:
00:25:10
and then you had to know well enough
Speaker:
00:25:12
that it would sound proper
Speaker:
00:25:14
when you brought an
orchestra in to play it.
Speaker:
00:25:16
It was this moment of truth
Speaker:
00:25:18
when the orchestra played
it for the first time.
Speaker:
00:25:22
Since then, we have literally
a music technology language,
Speaker:
00:25:28
MIDI, Musical Instrument
Digital Implementation,
Speaker:
00:25:31
has been created,
Speaker:
00:25:33
and it allows us to be able to
input things into a computer
Speaker:
00:25:39
and sculpt it and change it
Speaker:
00:25:41
and hear what it's going to sound like.
Speaker:
00:25:43
And it's been an amazingly wonderful tool,
Speaker:
00:25:46
but it requires a composer
to completely change.
Speaker:
00:25:49
I don't use a pencil and paper anymore.
Speaker:
00:25:51
I compose directly into the computer.
Speaker:
00:25:53
And that was a huge step for
me to be able to do that.
Speaker:
00:25:59
'Cause I'm not a great pianist.
Speaker:
00:26:01
I'm far from it.
Speaker:
00:26:02
I would never play in public,
Speaker:
00:26:05
and I think my little rendition-
Speaker:
00:26:08
- I have a hard time believing that,
Speaker:
00:26:09
considering you have the
piano right next to you.
Speaker:
00:26:10
- I would not have, literally,
Speaker:
00:26:14
there's not a day goes by
Speaker:
00:26:15
I don't wish I played piano better,
Speaker:
00:26:19
but it's required if you're
going to be in the business now
Speaker:
00:26:23
in order to put information
into the computer.
Speaker:
00:26:25
And it's a great thing
Speaker:
00:26:26
because it not only allows me to hear it
Speaker:
00:26:29
as I'm sculpting it and changing it,
Speaker:
00:26:31
and I can change a tempo,
I can change a note,
Speaker:
00:26:35
I can change it from the
melody being in this instrument
Speaker:
00:26:38
to another instrument.
Speaker:
00:26:39
And the digital samples have
become very sophisticated
Speaker:
00:26:42
and we can really do
wonderful things with it.
Speaker:
00:26:46
But it also allows me then
to play it for the filmmaker
Speaker:
00:26:49
or the director or whoever,
Speaker:
00:26:51
and then they can make a comment about it.
Speaker:
00:26:54
So it is an important process,
Speaker:
00:26:58
part of the process,
Speaker:
00:26:59
to be able to not only
know this language enough
Speaker:
00:27:02
to be able to compose it,
Speaker:
00:27:03
but you have to be able to
create very sophisticated,
Speaker:
00:27:06
real sounding demos for the filmmaker
Speaker:
00:27:09
to be able to respond to it.
Speaker:
00:27:11
And that has been very, very
useful for them, as well as us,
Speaker:
00:27:16
that we've been able to bring
Speaker:
00:27:17
them into the creative process.
Speaker:
00:27:20
But I knew a lot of composers
Speaker:
00:27:22
that were starting when I started,
Speaker:
00:27:24
composers that were in that
first class that I took
Speaker:
00:27:26
that wanted to pursue it.
Speaker:
00:27:28
And they just could not make that leap
Speaker:
00:27:30
over that chasm into the next language.
Speaker:
00:27:33
And they're not working now.
Speaker:
00:27:34
They're not doing it.
Speaker:
00:27:37
And it is constantly changing.
Speaker:
00:27:39
It is the most, I think, the
most difficult part of it.
Speaker:
00:27:44
And what I tell my students,
Speaker:
00:27:46
and anything I tell my
students, I'm telling myself,
Speaker:
00:27:50
find a process, find the
tools that work for you.
Speaker:
00:27:53
And don't feel like you
have to reinvent yourself
Speaker:
00:27:55
every six months because
some new bit of software
Speaker:
00:27:58
just came out.
Speaker:
00:27:59
Find what works for you and add to it.
Speaker:
00:28:02
I mean, you don't wanna become
a hermit and not change.
Speaker:
00:28:05
But the basic composing tools that we use,
Speaker:
00:28:12
you should find one that works for you.
Speaker:
00:28:14
And barring some, the program
doesn't exist anymore,
Speaker:
00:28:19
which happens occasionally,
Speaker:
00:28:21
or something just so new
and wonderful comes out
Speaker:
00:28:24
that it changes everything.
Speaker:
00:28:26
Elastic is the word I use
a lot with my students.
Speaker:
00:28:29
You have to remain elastic so that you,
Speaker:
00:28:33
if something comes along,
you are able to change.
Speaker:
00:28:36
Now, if you're a John Williams,
which there's only one,
Speaker:
00:28:40
but if you are a John
Williams caliber talent,
Speaker:
00:28:42
then you can do whatever you wanna do.
Speaker:
00:28:44
John still writes with a pencil and paper
Speaker:
00:28:46
and at his piano and his drafting table.
Speaker:
00:28:49
And he writes exactly the same way he did
Speaker:
00:28:51
in the late '50s when he first started.
Speaker:
00:28:53
Well, he can do that
because he's John Williams.
Speaker:
00:28:56
But the rest of us, we have to,
Speaker:
00:28:58
if other composers are presenting demos
Speaker:
00:29:01
that they produce in their studio,
Speaker:
00:29:02
well, then you better
be able to do it too,
Speaker:
00:29:04
or you're not going to work.
Speaker:
00:29:06
- Right.
Speaker:
00:29:07
When it was really interesting,
Speaker:
00:29:08
I was reading this article just expressing
Speaker:
00:29:11
how music producers, how they're evolving
Speaker:
00:29:14
with AI in particular.
Speaker:
00:29:16
And it's a great productivity tool.
Speaker:
00:29:19
They can use it to correct vocal pitches.
Speaker:
00:29:21
The Beatles actually a year or two ago
Speaker:
00:29:24
used AI to isolate John
Lennon's voice from a 1978 demo.
Speaker:
00:29:30
And they wouldn't be able to
do that without those tools.
Speaker:
00:29:34
But at the same time,
there's this delicate balance
Speaker:
00:29:37
you're always kind of dancing on.
Speaker:
00:29:40
That's great, but how do you remain true
Speaker:
00:29:42
and authentic to the human creation piece
Speaker:
00:29:45
and pulling that human emotion?
Speaker:
00:29:46
'Cause AI can't do that yet.
Speaker:
00:29:48
And I don't think it can for a while.
Speaker:
00:29:51
But how do you strike that balance
Speaker:
00:29:55
of just continuing to remind your students
Speaker:
00:29:57
or remind yourself of
how do you remain human
Speaker:
00:30:01
and thus very visceral
experience of creating music?
Speaker:
00:30:07
- Well, the first answer I'm gonna say
Speaker:
00:30:09
is that I think we haven't seen enough yet
Speaker:
00:30:13
to make a definitive answer to that.
Speaker:
00:30:16
I think the world is waiting.
Speaker:
00:30:18
I think literally in the
next year or two or three,
Speaker:
00:30:21
in terms of what I do, film
music, media composition,
Speaker:
00:30:27
I think things are gonna really change
Speaker:
00:30:28
'cause there's some people
working on some software
Speaker:
00:30:31
that is going to bust this wide open.
Speaker:
00:30:36
And that part of- - What software?
Speaker:
00:30:38
- Well, software that you
could literally program
Speaker:
00:30:40
in different styles of
composing and then just tell it,
Speaker:
00:30:44
I want an action cue.
Speaker:
00:30:46
I want it this fast.
Speaker:
00:30:47
I want it on a level 6.7 as
far as how dangerous it sounds.
Speaker:
00:30:53
Boom, there it is.
Speaker:
00:30:55
And while that may be
great for a filmmaker
Speaker:
00:30:58
or a low budget producer
or something that,
Speaker:
00:31:02
wow, I can get a score by
just typing in some numbers,
Speaker:
00:31:07
it takes away the creative process.
Speaker:
00:31:11
And it's like buying a dress off the rack
Speaker:
00:31:15
or having a dress designed just for you,
Speaker:
00:31:17
that only you have it.
Speaker:
00:31:19
So it has, every time
humanity has made giant leaps,
Speaker:
00:31:25
the next technological leap,
Speaker:
00:31:27
there's always been some negative
Speaker:
00:31:29
that comes along with it.
Speaker:
00:31:31
What I worry about with
this type of technology
Speaker:
00:31:35
is it's not gonna
replace the John Williams
Speaker:
00:31:38
or the Hans Zimmers, it won't.
Speaker:
00:31:40
Because those films and
that level of production
Speaker:
00:31:45
is always gonna want that
collaborative exchange
Speaker:
00:31:49
between the composer.
Speaker:
00:31:51
Where I fear that it's
going to take away from
Speaker:
00:31:53
is the low budget stuff
Speaker:
00:31:55
that frankly the audience
isn't really caring about.
Speaker:
00:31:58
That's the work that young
composers need and would get.
Speaker:
00:32:04
And if you take that level away,
Speaker:
00:32:07
the effect is gonna be there.
Speaker:
00:32:08
There is definitely going
to be a ripple from that.
Speaker:
00:32:12
But that's what I worry about
Speaker:
00:32:14
because it's just human nature.
Speaker:
00:32:15
If I can get something for
a lot less, a lot quicker,
Speaker:
00:32:19
they're gonna get it.
Speaker:
00:32:20
And you can't put that
genie back in the bottle.
Speaker:
00:32:24
- Well, and so I guess to that note,
Speaker:
00:32:26
as you're having, you're seeing,
Speaker:
00:32:28
I'm assuming it's April now,
Speaker:
00:32:31
you have another
graduating class coming up.
Speaker:
00:32:34
I mean, what are the things
that you're telling them
Speaker:
00:32:36
to keep in mind as they kind of,
Speaker:
00:32:40
maybe they're heading out to
LA, maybe they're not, but.
Speaker:
00:32:45
- I've got five that are graduating
Speaker:
00:32:47
and all five of them wanna go to LA.
Speaker:
00:32:50
I tell them to be prepared.
Speaker:
00:32:53
You know, don't expect
to be getting lucrative,
Speaker:
00:32:57
you know, A-list work right away.
Speaker:
00:33:00
And I said, mainly because
Speaker:
00:33:01
you're probably not ready for it yet.
Speaker:
00:33:03
I mean, there's only so much
I can teach you in two years.
Speaker:
00:33:06
You're gonna go through
this apprentice period
Speaker:
00:33:09
and hopefully they will
find an opportunity
Speaker:
00:33:12
to be an assistant or an
apprentice to somebody.
Speaker:
00:33:15
And if they don't, then
at least find composers
Speaker:
00:33:18
that will allow them to come to sessions,
Speaker:
00:33:20
that will allow them to
come over to their studio
Speaker:
00:33:22
and watch them work and
talk with the assistants
Speaker:
00:33:25
that they do have.
Speaker:
00:33:27
I talk about, you know,
Speaker:
00:33:28
you have to be pleasant to work with.
Speaker:
00:33:31
You have to have a personality
Speaker:
00:33:32
that makes people feel
comfortable with you.
Speaker:
00:33:36
I'll present scenarios like, okay,
Speaker:
00:33:39
what would happen if this happened to you?
Speaker:
00:33:41
How would you deal with that?
Speaker:
00:33:43
Another important part
of my curriculum here is
Speaker:
00:33:47
we don't have a film school here
Speaker:
00:33:48
at the Eastman School of Music,
Speaker:
00:33:50
but there's a school nearby,
Speaker:
00:33:51
the Rochester Institute of Technology
Speaker:
00:33:53
has a great film school and
a great animation school
Speaker:
00:33:56
and video game developing
school, world renowned.
Speaker:
00:33:59
And we have a great relationship with them
Speaker:
00:34:03
and my students score their student films.
Speaker:
00:34:05
And so now they're getting the experience
Speaker:
00:34:08
of working with a director
Speaker:
00:34:09
that may not know how to
explain what it is they want,
Speaker:
00:34:12
or, you know, they don't like
something that they wrote
Speaker:
00:34:15
and they can't tell you what to do better,
Speaker:
00:34:17
but they just want you to
do something different.
Speaker:
00:34:19
But the, you know, dealing with adversity
Speaker:
00:34:23
is what I first talked to them about.
Speaker:
00:34:27
And being the type of person
Speaker:
00:34:30
that people want to trust you with that,
Speaker:
00:34:33
the way Don Mischer trusted
me with, you know, so much.
Speaker:
00:34:37
- Yeah, well, thank you.
Speaker:
00:34:40
I appreciate your time today.
Speaker:
00:34:42
- It has been a lot of
fun sharing this with you.
Speaker:
00:34:45
Thank you very much for asking.
Speaker:
00:34:48
- Well, that's it for today's
episode of "The Rough Draft."
Speaker:
00:34:50
To learn more about our guests
Speaker:
00:34:52
and to find links and resources
related to the conversation,
Speaker:
00:34:54
check out Rev.com/podcast.
Speaker:
00:34:58
If you enjoyed today's conversation,
Speaker:
00:34:59
be sure to rate and subscribe
Speaker:
00:35:01
in order to stay up to date
with the latest episodes.
Speaker:
00:35:04
Thank you for listening,
Speaker:
00:35:05
and we look forward to seeing you again
Speaker:
00:35:06
on the next episode of "The Rough Draft."
