Inside Undercover Investigations: From the Police Force to Corporate Intelligence with Basha Galvin

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What was the scariest situation, if you can remember,

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Basha, that you were in and what did you do? One

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of the most scariest one was meeting this chap who

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had kidnapped a young adult as let's say.

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So he was kidnapped from school. You know, Dr.

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Octa, the pizza people, I call them the yogurt people. Oh yes,

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yes I do. I love their pizzas. Yeah, yeah. His son was

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kidnapped, held underground in a coffin

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and in a coffin with air holes

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in this guy's garage out in, in

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Austria. What was the most satisfying undercover job that

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you did? Welcome to the Intelligence Advantage

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podcast where I, Gary Miller, get to talk to the movers and

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shapers in the investigation and intelligence industry and

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find out exactly how they got to where they are today.

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Today I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined by someone

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I've known for many moons, whose career spans

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nearly, I think Basha, 40. Nearly 40 years in the

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investigation space and you only look 21. So how do

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you do it? And has been in an

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investigated multi industry. She's been in the public sector,

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in the private sector and got a

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wealth of experience. So I'm absolutely delighted to have you with

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us, Basha. Thank you for joining me. No, thank you, Gary

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and oh, looking forward to it. Albeit I don't like

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talking about my personal life that much. But yeah, I can share

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some experiences with you. Excellent. That's the

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whole name of the game. I wasn't going to start with this, but as I

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was entering your information in my WhatsApp and

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contacts, I just thought you, you couldn't have a more appropriate

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name for a kind of tough investigator, could you? So

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how did you end up with Basha? I know it's a, it's probably

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a truncated form of a nice long Indian name, but it's,

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it's really. Does the name. Did you the name choose you or you

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choose the name? It was given to me, really? My full name's

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kbacho and when I was in the police in uniform

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in Ealing, you had to attend the many late

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night disturbances, let's call them. And

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I had to handcuff somebody and wrestle them down.

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And my family called me baksho and I

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told everybody to call me back show. But after that incident it was just

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shortened to Basher and it stuck for the last

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40 years. That's all I can say on that. But I didn't hit

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him. We just had a wrestle. You just had a wrestle. Excellent.

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And we don't even need to ask who came off the worst. We don't need

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to ask so. And also I've got to bring this into it because you are

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like the. You're the real life version of DI

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Ray. I'm sure you've watched that program, have you? Yes,

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I've seen bits of it, yeah. So it's. Did she model

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her series on you, do you think?

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I think she probably modeled it on many police officers over time.

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So, you know, initially when I joined, I actually

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wanted to join the army. When I first went home

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and told my parents, I want to join the army, and they both said no.

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So I thought, okay, I'm not going to tell them what I'm going to do

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next. And it was a case

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of I applied for West Midlands Police initially

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because I'm from Birmingham. Yeah. And my parents

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both come from India. And was that. We had

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some strict up bring in. They weren't that strict really, as

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what perhaps some people would say they should have

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been with us. And I applied for West Midlands

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Police, went through the interview process. My mom thought I was just going for

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job interviews. And then as we were getting closer to the

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application, they said, right, we need to send somebody around your

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home address. And in those days they used to interview the parents and the family

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and check where you live. I don't know if they still do that, to be

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honest. So they turned up and I thought, right, this

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is okay, because my mom and dad's English is not great.

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I'll be doing the translation and I'll just answer the

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questions for them. And they turned up with an Asian

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police officer who was fluent in Punjabi. And I was like, oh, God,

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I'm really shot in the foot here.

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And I didn't realize they wanted you to be present, did they? They weren't going

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to just suddenly appear to a. A surprise visit without you

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around. And my dad was very good.

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He actually turned around and said, well, if that's what she wants to do, we're

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fully supportive. And so I nearly fell off the chair

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thinking, that's not what I thought he would say. And, yeah,

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so there I was, ready to join the West Midlands Police and I got

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turned down. I was like, how on earth did I get turned

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down? And one of the police officers said to me, you should apply for the

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mattress, the Metropolitan Police. So that's what I

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did. And funny enough, somebody had prepped me, another

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police officer, for the interview and he said, if they say,

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why weren't you accepted for West Midlands Police? He said, just

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say that was their loss. This could be your gain. And that's what I did.

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Do an interview and I got accepted.

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So off I went for 20 weeks training at Hendon and

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I think my family thought, still thought then, that

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I was not going to do it. They just thought I was just going through

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the interview process. Back in

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sort of 1987 when I joined, obviously the police

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weren't well thought of by the Asian community. So I do have.

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My brothers didn't speak to me for a couple of years because they

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were against the police for their own dealings with

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the. And some of my male relatives were like,

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why on earth did you go and do that? And they just could

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not understand the decision either. But it was something I always wanted to

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do and I'm really glad I did do at the end

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of the day, albeit I left after 12 years.

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Yes. And what was the passion, what was the

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burning ambition inside of you that. And I know

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you said you would have preferred the army, but was it to do.

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What was it to do with discipline, rank, costume? Did you like the

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outfit? What was it? It's interesting because it was to

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help the community. It was. I can make things better.

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Call it whether I was naive or not, but I do think I did do

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a good job. Dealt with many sexual harassment cases,

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domestic violence incidents, put my language skills to

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use, et cetera, et cetera. So it was coming from a

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place of caring and something I wanted to do

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and. Sorry, what was your other question? My question,

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Sorry, it was really wrapped up in the same thing. It was what drew

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you. That's why you were looking at public service, you wanted to make

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a difference. And now that you look back, do you. I think

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you've said, did you feel that the way.

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Cause you can't help but think of DI Ray. I just finished

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the series, which I thought was so, you know, it

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was so close to what I imagine the reality is in

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terms of an Asian, a clever

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Asian woman in the police force. But

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looking back, do you feel you made a difference? I feel

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I made a difference, albeit there was ups and downs

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and I probably wouldn't have laughed if it wasn't for a number of

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incidences and the buildup to those. So,

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I mean, when I joined, I was obviously in uniform, did the

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20 weeks at Hendon, and there's a couple

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of things that always stood out. When I joined, I was posted

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to Ealing. I was afraid of getting Southall because I knew so many

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people who lived there in the Asian community, I had relatives

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there, et cetera. So I did say that it's easier if

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I'm somewhere else. And luckily, I got Ealing and Acton,

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which was a great ground to work there. When I

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joined, I was with four other police officers and we were new. And

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you parade in the basement and you have a

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police sergeant and a police constable looking after you

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in uniform to talk you through what your day looks like. And

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you know, you mentioned uniform, so we used to have to wear skirts like

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women didn't wear trousers in those days. And

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you had your skirt and your little jacket

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and your nice hat. And when we paraded the first day,

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I'll never forget to this day, the sergeant started adjusting

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my clothing like, your belt's not right, this, that and the other. And you're standing

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there, arms by your side on parade. And when we

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finished, the other four said to me, are you okay? And I was

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like, I didn't expect that. But yeah, who am I going

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to complain to kind of thing.

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I'm pretty sure that can't happen these days, right? I'd like to think it doesn't.

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And I think if it happened to me today, I might say something.

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But the naive me back then was this was

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all new. And the other thing was we went off

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on our roster and you're on

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shift with other teams and there was only myself

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and one other female with, I think it was about 18 police

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constables, all male. And I was told

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that I'd be walking with one of the most, you know, senior police

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officers there who had been there 20 odd years.

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So off we went and he says, I'll test her. So

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I remember, never forget to this day, he was speaking to this

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young lad who had committed a traffic offense. And he was

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standing on his toes and poking him in the chest as he was talking

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to him. And the young chap said, he's standing on

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my feet. And I was thinking, he's standing on his feet, what do I do

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now? And he finished his rant, let's call it. But

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he didn't know how to write the ticket because the new fixed penalties had come

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in. So he said, you write the fixed penalty. So I wrote the

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penalty, went back to the station and he sort of said to everybody during

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the break, she's all right. And that was like my acceptance.

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I wonder whether it was. You're right, because you didn't say anything about him

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physically assaulting might be a little, a little

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heavy, but he certainly was, you know, that kind of thing. Or whether

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it was that you didn't make fun of him for not knowing how to

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write out the ticket. But whatever it was, you clearly passed muster.

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Yes, Passed muster on that. And very quickly

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you could see. I don't know whether they would call it banter,

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but there was all the racist, sexist jokes going

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on and it was just something you lived with

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and there was initiations and

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luckily it didn't happen to me. Of police women being

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moved from one station to another, being grabbed and having

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their bottom stamped with the. Another police

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station's official stamp to. As a joke,

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things like that. And it was just something. I suppose

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it's. It's, you know, you look back at it and it's quite sad, but we

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just had to accept because nobody was listening. If you

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did complain and you found in those days, it was the old adage, if

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you complained, you were moved station not the problem

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itself was dealt with. Yeah. Not the person, but.

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So I guess. Did you know

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or feel that the Met was a.

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Which is the impression I'm getting, but it's probably the person

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I'm thinking of told me this. It was earlier. It was in the

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60s rather than in the 80s. But had the reputation

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as being of being a corrupt police force.

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Had that dissipated by the time you joined? No, I

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would say not. There was a couple of instances where

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there was morning raids and you'd have your arrest

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warrant and you'd all charge it, but there'd be nothing there. So

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you'd think, well, somebody's tipped them off, we're coming.

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And it could only have been somebody internally.

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Right. There was that. I was very lucky. At an early age,

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within my two years, I was asked if I wanted to be an undercover

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police officer by one of my Jewish colleagues, who also

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stood out as not fitting the mold of

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what we had in the police service at the time, which was, you know, white

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male. And when he approached me, I was just like, I don't know

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what you're talking about, like, what's undercover?

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And then he explained to me what it was.

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And we only did two weeks training that.

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And I suppose it worked for me because I could wear Asian

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clothes. I was fluent in Punjabi and Hindi and,

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you know, because of my color and some. Most people didn't think I was Asian

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at all. So if. If I went with

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a white undercover police officer or worked with a Jewish

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colleague, they would never put the mix

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as being undercover officers. And Satsu. You

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know, that part of it was tough.

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And I did do a lot of work there from

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sort of. I think I did about eight years sort

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of working on different projects at different times.

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Yeah. Different police officers. Wow. I mean, it sounds like you

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Went into undercover quite quickly after joining the

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force, or was it longer than I am suspecting? No, it was

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within the two years probation you used to have to do in those days.

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Wow. And I was lucky then. That was quickly posted. Yeah,

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it's quite a tough assignment. And were you still in Ealing and Acton, or do

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you change? Or is it anywhere you go as an undercover? You go anywhere.

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And I was lucky sometimes. I did work abroad in Europe,

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so that was good for some of the cases I did. And,

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yeah, it was the parent, but interesting enough,

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none of my family knew. Just do it, because I just kept it

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completely separate from work life.

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00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:41,490
Wow. And if I may intrude, were you living at home at that

235
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stage or had you found a partner and

236
00:14:45,170 --> 00:14:48,850
living with them? Who were you taking your secrets home

237
00:14:48,850 --> 00:14:52,610
to, as it were? I'm divorced now, but I did have a partner

238
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who was a police officer at the time he left and

239
00:14:56,770 --> 00:14:59,830
joined the legal profession. But it was

240
00:15:00,230 --> 00:15:03,990
interesting times because when we met, obviously we met

241
00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:07,670
at work, he was white, I was Asian, and

242
00:15:08,230 --> 00:15:12,030
the racist abuse was there and you'd get letters shoved

243
00:15:12,030 --> 00:15:15,750
through your locker and you're thinking, what is going

244
00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:19,590
on? I thought these were my friends and colleagues because we both worked at the

245
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:23,430
same station, but the minute. And was that alien and

246
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:27,190
acting as well or not? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was

247
00:15:27,190 --> 00:15:30,750
a real work romance. You joined the station and found your husband. Right?

248
00:15:31,630 --> 00:15:34,830
Yeah, yeah. But he left and I stayed in the police,

249
00:15:35,710 --> 00:15:39,510
so. But he did have an understanding of what I

250
00:15:39,510 --> 00:15:43,350
was doing, where I was going, et cetera, which helped in a

251
00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:46,510
way. Did he. Did he. Did he end up having to pick any.

252
00:15:47,070 --> 00:15:49,950
Well, I say pick any, but engage in any

253
00:15:50,510 --> 00:15:54,270
fights or altercations because of the way you were treated?

254
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,680
There was one particular incident that stood out for both of

255
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,200
us. We'd been for dinner and we'd been for dinner in

256
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,720
Ealing and we got back to the car and I was just about to open

257
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,400
the car. Yeah, door handles in those days. And it was completely

258
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,600
smeared in dog shit, basically.

259
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,760
And it was like, well, I don't think it's anybody we've

260
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,200
arrested, kind of say.

261
00:16:20,490 --> 00:16:24,050
And after that, I did sort of launch a

262
00:16:24,050 --> 00:16:27,770
complaint and I was moved, which

263
00:16:27,770 --> 00:16:31,330
was fine. You were moved? Yeah. This was from Ealing and

264
00:16:31,330 --> 00:16:34,330
Acton, was it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow,

265
00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:38,890
that's troubling. And we can only

266
00:16:38,890 --> 00:16:42,530
hope that it's got better. You mentioned. If I may,

267
00:16:42,530 --> 00:16:45,900
and tell me if I'm treading on too

268
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:49,540
sensitive ground, but you mentioned your brothers were not too

269
00:16:49,540 --> 00:16:52,580
enchanted with Your decision to join,

270
00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:56,740
was that just. I say just, was that because of a real

271
00:16:56,980 --> 00:17:00,260
ingrained experience of being targeted,

272
00:17:00,260 --> 00:17:03,980
discriminated, or was it they were happened to be operating

273
00:17:03,980 --> 00:17:07,540
on the wrong side of the law? No, it was because they were targeted.

274
00:17:07,940 --> 00:17:10,740
Where we lived in Birmingham and it was

275
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:15,870
predominantly white police officers at the time, and

276
00:17:15,870 --> 00:17:19,670
they had been stopped and searched or, you know, harassed by police

277
00:17:19,750 --> 00:17:23,430
kind of thing, and that's where it all came from. And back in,

278
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:27,309
you know, back in the 80s, there was a lot of unemployment about, et

279
00:17:27,309 --> 00:17:30,550
cetera. So they weren't on the wrong side of the law. It was more

280
00:17:30,550 --> 00:17:34,310
harassment. Luckily, they've never been on the wrong side of

281
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:37,980
the law. No. That is fortunate. And did it ever. Did

282
00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:41,340
that ever happen to you, that you were obviously

283
00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:45,580
not in uniform the whole time when you were out, you were the target

284
00:17:45,740 --> 00:17:48,620
of deliberate racial discrimination

285
00:17:49,260 --> 00:17:53,020
which only emerged or when you'd say, well, I'm actually a

286
00:17:53,020 --> 00:17:56,860
police officer. Did you ever get into that scenario and what happened?

287
00:17:57,100 --> 00:18:00,940
I didn't actually, because I suppose, as I say, because of my coloring,

288
00:18:00,940 --> 00:18:04,790
not many people can guess, but it was more because

289
00:18:04,790 --> 00:18:08,350
I suppose my colleagues knew that I was Asian as

290
00:18:08,350 --> 00:18:11,990
opposed to, and then had an Asian name as such.

291
00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:16,470
And in light of, I guess, the sad but

292
00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:19,990
prevailing social and ethnic

293
00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:23,990
discrimination that you would have faced, I guess it wasn't

294
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:26,910
that much of a surprise to you, or were you totally

295
00:18:26,910 --> 00:18:30,550
gobsmacked when having joined what was supposed to be

296
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,680
a force that was there to uphold the law, that they were

297
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,760
amongst the biggest perpetrators of the discrimination and

298
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,280
the just totally inappropriate behavior.

299
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,120
It came as a surprise because it's people you're working with,

300
00:18:46,759 --> 00:18:49,880
that's more of it. That comes as a surprise.

301
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,040
And, you know, they were actively recruiting

302
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,280
Asian people, people of different minorities, to join the police.

303
00:18:58,810 --> 00:19:02,250
You know, when I joined, the Black Police Officers

304
00:19:02,250 --> 00:19:05,930
association was set up, so that was all new. We all

305
00:19:05,930 --> 00:19:09,450
had to attend. I think it was Hendon again. And,

306
00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:13,250
you know, it was all black and Asian police officers and we talked about,

307
00:19:13,250 --> 00:19:17,010
you know, what you're seeing, etc. So it came as

308
00:19:17,010 --> 00:19:20,410
a surprise because, hang on, you're trying to change the

309
00:19:20,410 --> 00:19:23,770
image, but you're still not changing the image

310
00:19:23,770 --> 00:19:26,820
entirely. So when I hear stories today about

311
00:19:27,140 --> 00:19:30,900
racial harassment, sexual harassment, I was like thinking, this has

312
00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:34,660
been going on for years. Why can't they fix it? And what's

313
00:19:34,660 --> 00:19:38,300
the answer to that? Why is it that's just human beings or is it

314
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:41,620
the police? They feel that they are entitled

315
00:19:42,260 --> 00:19:45,380
to, as it were, displace

316
00:19:45,780 --> 00:19:49,220
onto their colleagues, their Built in

317
00:19:49,220 --> 00:19:52,590
racism. I think it was probably some,

318
00:19:53,230 --> 00:19:56,430
you know, it wasn't all. There were really good police officers

319
00:19:57,790 --> 00:20:00,470
at the time that I worked with and I have to say I didn't see

320
00:20:00,470 --> 00:20:04,190
it with female colleagues. Oh, that's one thing I will

321
00:20:04,190 --> 00:20:07,990
see. And I think it should have changed today. And you're

322
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:11,550
trying to understand why it's not changed today. That's the thing,

323
00:20:11,630 --> 00:20:15,270
I don't think. I mean, I haven't read the paper recently. You see

324
00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:18,160
many female officers who are

325
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,480
sexist, racist. They probably are, I don't know. But it

326
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,680
really is trying to change the mindset of,

327
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,960
you know, what happened then. So, you know, for example, I was bullied at school

328
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,800
for being Asian. Right. You just sort

329
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,160
of think when you join the police service, you can stop

330
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,960
that. And you don't expect your colleagues to be bullying you as

331
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,720
well. Throughout your childhood, people

332
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,360
knew you were Asian and people would spit and shout at

333
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:53,200
you. But it was almost like an expectation. As we were growing up,

334
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,920
you knew it was going to happen. It's so sad. Had

335
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,640
your parents been brought up in the UK as well?

336
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,560
No, my mom and dad came over from India, you could say

337
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,120
part of the Windrush kind of things. My dad worked in a factory.

338
00:21:10,370 --> 00:21:14,170
I see. And my mom, you know, worked from home. And

339
00:21:14,170 --> 00:21:16,850
then, you know, my mom and dad did buy a shop. It was an honor

340
00:21:16,850 --> 00:21:19,410
corner. And she ran that for 30 years.

341
00:21:20,450 --> 00:21:24,250
Oh, my God. Okay. And that was in Birmingham, was it?

342
00:21:24,250 --> 00:21:27,850
Yes, in Birmingham. And you don't have any Brummie

343
00:21:27,850 --> 00:21:31,610
accent at all, so clearly I do when I go back. I

344
00:21:31,610 --> 00:21:35,290
was there this weekend. Sister did a fundraiser

345
00:21:35,290 --> 00:21:38,990
for British Heart Foundation. She did very well, actually, for my dad's

346
00:21:38,990 --> 00:21:42,670
10 year anniversary. But it's a

347
00:21:42,670 --> 00:21:46,430
place that I absolutely love and I love going back there. So I'm so grateful

348
00:21:46,430 --> 00:21:50,070
for families putting up with me when I go back.

349
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:53,910
And was there ever that or maybe more than one occasion where

350
00:21:53,910 --> 00:21:57,190
mum and dad sat down and said, now look, Basha,

351
00:21:57,510 --> 00:22:00,950
this is the kind of behavior you're gonna face at school.

352
00:22:02,310 --> 00:22:06,110
Or maybe they had no idea because they weren't schooled, I think you said

353
00:22:06,110 --> 00:22:09,610
in the uk. No. And we didn't tell them because

354
00:22:09,610 --> 00:22:12,690
we'd come home and you wouldn't tell them because

355
00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:17,090
we were well behaved kids. You know, why would we upset mom if

356
00:22:17,090 --> 00:22:20,810
she found out? Or we'd tell her. I see. Gosh. It would be upsetting your

357
00:22:20,810 --> 00:22:24,530
parents rather than being afraid to tell them that you were being

358
00:22:24,530 --> 00:22:28,090
bullied and not strong enough. It was more out of. They Would get really

359
00:22:28,090 --> 00:22:31,770
upset. Is that it? Yeah, yeah. And then I didn't want my mom and

360
00:22:31,770 --> 00:22:35,410
dad sort of going out there and trying to put it right either

361
00:22:35,410 --> 00:22:39,250
because they may get hurt, bullied, shouted out, etc. As well.

362
00:22:39,890 --> 00:22:42,850
So, yeah, it was out of respect for them. We didn't really tell them.

363
00:22:43,410 --> 00:22:47,170
Right. And being Jewish myself, you

364
00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:50,810
mentioned Jewish police officers, which I guess now there are

365
00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:54,370
more in the same way there's more Asian. But they would have faced

366
00:22:55,730 --> 00:22:58,930
similar discrimination, would they? With, you know, the usual

367
00:22:59,010 --> 00:23:02,610
taglines and words and stuff like that. Yeah, definitely,

368
00:23:02,610 --> 00:23:06,170
definitely. So we were like comrades as

369
00:23:06,170 --> 00:23:10,010
such. We had each other to sort of sound off. You were the

370
00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:13,370
minorities and were there actually any black police

371
00:23:13,370 --> 00:23:17,050
officers? Cause you mentioned the Black Police Officers association. Or

372
00:23:17,130 --> 00:23:20,650
was that not yet something that was

373
00:23:21,450 --> 00:23:24,890
occurring within the police force? There was some, but I did

374
00:23:24,970 --> 00:23:28,770
directly work with some. I worked with some and spoke to some as I worked

375
00:23:28,770 --> 00:23:32,620
undercover. It was. Right. That was, you know, where

376
00:23:32,620 --> 00:23:36,420
you'd see them as such, but on a day to day basis. Not,

377
00:23:36,420 --> 00:23:39,100
not many I worked with. It was still few

378
00:23:40,060 --> 00:23:42,700
if you look at the size of the metropolitan police at the time.

379
00:23:43,820 --> 00:23:47,500
Yeah. And undercover work

380
00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:50,620
is also. Is obviously always intriguing to

381
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:54,700
those mere mortals like me who

382
00:23:55,020 --> 00:23:58,640
can only either dream or imagine what it's

383
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,440
like. What was the scariest situation, if you can

384
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,040
remember, Basha, that you were in and what did you do?

385
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,840
One of the most scariest one was meeting this chap

386
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,800
who had kidnapped a young

387
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,120
adult, let's say. So he was kidnapped from school,

388
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,320
you know, Dr. Upter, the pizza people, I call them the yogurt

389
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,740
people. Oh yes, yes, I do. I love their pizzas.

390
00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:29,540
Yeah, yeah. So his son was kidnapped,

391
00:24:29,940 --> 00:24:33,780
held underground in a coffin and

392
00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:38,100
in a coffin with air holes in this

393
00:24:38,659 --> 00:24:42,340
guy's garage out in Austria. And

394
00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:44,740
what he had done was he had rigged it with

395
00:24:46,660 --> 00:24:49,860
electrodes so if he screamed or shouted, he would get

396
00:24:49,860 --> 00:24:53,610
electrocuted. Oh my God. And you can read about

397
00:24:53,610 --> 00:24:57,130
it in the paper. Unfortunately, the

398
00:24:57,130 --> 00:25:00,650
chap dropped a hammer or whatever had set off this

399
00:25:00,970 --> 00:25:04,610
electrodes and the poor young

400
00:25:04,610 --> 00:25:08,290
chap, you know, his hip, everything burnt. So he's been

401
00:25:08,290 --> 00:25:11,930
left disabled for life. The ransom

402
00:25:11,930 --> 00:25:15,290
was paid and it was paid in

403
00:25:15,290 --> 00:25:18,710
deutsche marks at the time the family paid the ransom, the

404
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:22,350
individual, and the ransom was never recovered. And

405
00:25:22,350 --> 00:25:25,990
I came in sort of about six years after this had happened.

406
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:29,510
And various undercover officers had met this gentleman who

407
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:33,270
claimed to have the money. And the Deutschmark had been

408
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:37,110
removed from the currency at the time, because his family was so powerful,

409
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:41,310
the government recognized that there's somebody out there with this note. And

410
00:25:41,310 --> 00:25:45,030
I've actually got a certificate on the wall behind me, actually. And

411
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:48,790
it was a case of, right, we need to recover the ransom. How do we

412
00:25:48,790 --> 00:25:52,590
go about that? And 1, 2, 3, 4 police officers had

413
00:25:52,590 --> 00:25:56,150
been in. And then I met him in Brussels in a really nice hotel.

414
00:25:56,550 --> 00:26:00,110
And I came in, I moved into undercover finance. At the time,

415
00:26:00,110 --> 00:26:02,870
I used to do drugs. As I said,

416
00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:08,310
I'd be the bag lady. I'd be the bag lady

417
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:12,070
for that. But it was very unsavory places.

418
00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:15,920
And I. And then I quickly learned, you know, the money is where you can

419
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,600
play a better role. You get nicer hotels, you get nicer restaurants to

420
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,320
go to, a little bit bigger expense account. I'll

421
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,840
move into finance. So basically, I was laundering funds,

422
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,320
and he wanted to launder this money. So I met him at this hotel,

423
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,920
introduced through another undercover officer. Very, very

424
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,360
scary guy, had the most cold blue eyes.

425
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,520
And I went through the deal and he shook my hand. He had a very

426
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,260
strong handshake and said, I'm going to bring the money over to

427
00:26:46,260 --> 00:26:49,500
London. Because we needed to get him out that jurisdiction to be able to have

428
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:53,220
him arrested, et cetera, et cetera. We arranged to meet. The Park Lane

429
00:26:53,220 --> 00:26:56,940
Hilton actually shook my hand and said, if this goes wrong, I

430
00:26:56,940 --> 00:27:00,100
will find you and I will kill you. And I thought, I've heard this before,

431
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:03,860
but I think he actually means it. Wow. What nationality was

432
00:27:03,860 --> 00:27:07,620
he? He was. Oh, that's terrible. I can't remember.

433
00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:12,270
I'd have to look at the certificate again. Austrian. He was

434
00:27:12,270 --> 00:27:15,190
Austrian, Yes. Yeah. So

435
00:27:16,150 --> 00:27:19,990
off we go. And he. We have conversations

436
00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:23,790
on the phone. I work out the financial, how I'm going to

437
00:27:23,790 --> 00:27:27,310
put the money back in the system, how we can get him clean money

438
00:27:27,310 --> 00:27:30,950
out. And so he travels to London, and

439
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:34,670
what he does is he hires a white van, buys a lot

440
00:27:34,670 --> 00:27:38,350
of encyclopedias, cuts out the pages and the

441
00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:42,110
encyclopedias like they do, puts all the money inside, had all the

442
00:27:42,110 --> 00:27:45,310
books resealed, and travels to London.

443
00:27:45,470 --> 00:27:49,070
Obviously, he was being watched all the time he was doing this.

444
00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:53,230
And it was a case of would the meeting go ahead or

445
00:27:53,230 --> 00:27:56,750
should they. What they call strike, knowing he's got

446
00:27:56,910 --> 00:28:00,270
the money. So, you know, they obtained all the necessary

447
00:28:02,370 --> 00:28:05,810
approvals, and they broke into the van at night,

448
00:28:06,050 --> 00:28:09,890
checked one of the pd, gave a thumbs up. Yeah, the money's there.

449
00:28:11,330 --> 00:28:14,930
And when he went to the van, prior to me meeting him,

450
00:28:15,090 --> 00:28:18,810
they arrested him with all the money in town prior to

451
00:28:18,810 --> 00:28:22,610
the meeting. Yeah, yeah. So I didn't have to see him again. But obviously he

452
00:28:22,610 --> 00:28:26,450
guessed what had happened and

453
00:28:26,450 --> 00:28:29,570
that went to trial. He got sentenced. Then

454
00:28:30,690 --> 00:28:34,490
the family did want to sort of take us to Austria, you know, fly us

455
00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:38,290
over and this, that and the other. But obviously we couldn't. So we just

456
00:28:38,290 --> 00:28:42,090
said, thank you. No, thank you. So that was probably the

457
00:28:42,090 --> 00:28:45,010
most disturbing one. But, yeah, I think,

458
00:28:45,650 --> 00:28:49,450
as a matter of interest, why did they want to nab him

459
00:28:49,450 --> 00:28:53,050
here? Surely they would have preferred to nab him in Austria, where the family were

460
00:28:53,050 --> 00:28:56,530
and where he would keep. Get a bigger. Because the actual kidnapping

461
00:28:56,530 --> 00:29:00,210
offense. But you didn't tell me where it was. I'm assuming he didn't.

462
00:29:00,370 --> 00:29:04,010
He wasn't. Or he was kidnapped in London, in England? No, no, he was

463
00:29:04,010 --> 00:29:07,250
kidnapped abroad. Sorry, in his home country. Yeah, yeah.

464
00:29:07,810 --> 00:29:11,490
It was something to do with the regulations and I think it was more

465
00:29:11,490 --> 00:29:14,970
to do with three or four. I think he'd had about 10 undercover

466
00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:18,770
officers go into him and nobody had actually managed to pull him

467
00:29:18,770 --> 00:29:22,620
to a meeting with the money was to give it the flavor.

468
00:29:23,900 --> 00:29:27,540
Were you working hand in glove with the Austrian police as well,

469
00:29:27,540 --> 00:29:31,380
or the original police? Austrians. The Brussels police, because

470
00:29:31,380 --> 00:29:32,540
obviously you had to approve.

471
00:29:35,100 --> 00:29:38,380
It was jurisdictional all the way. Customs.

472
00:29:39,980 --> 00:29:43,780
This fellow was the actual perpetrator of the kidnap. He wasn't

473
00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:47,380
just somebody who was laundering money for the kidnapper. No, he was a

474
00:29:47,380 --> 00:29:51,140
perpetrator. Dieter is his name. There's

475
00:29:51,140 --> 00:29:54,740
a film made about it, actually. I've watched it. Yeah,

476
00:29:54,980 --> 00:29:58,820
it's a really old film. And do you remember how long he went down

477
00:29:58,820 --> 00:30:02,660
for? I think he didn't get that long at the end

478
00:30:02,660 --> 00:30:06,100
of the day, because of the time had passed since the crime

479
00:30:06,580 --> 00:30:10,300
and us recovering the currency and all sorts. I think he got six, seven,

480
00:30:10,300 --> 00:30:13,940
you know, something like that. God, that's.

481
00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:18,560
It was more moving to sort of see what this

482
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,960
poor young man went through and what he has to live with for the rest

483
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,800
of his life. So when. When

484
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,120
this. This kidnapper was it. Sort of

485
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,920
not for a long time until he was. How was he. Sorry, I'm.

486
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,280
I'm falling over myself here. How was. How was he

487
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,720
found? What was the break that led to finding the

488
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,800
poor victim inside this box?

489
00:30:47,930 --> 00:30:51,690
No, no, the ransom was paid, so he released him, but obviously released him

490
00:30:51,690 --> 00:30:54,090
in poor medical health, let's call it.

491
00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:59,010
Yeah, terrible. And there's pictures of, you know, this young man.

492
00:30:59,010 --> 00:31:02,770
You'll find them online. Yeah. Which was really tough. Wow. What

493
00:31:02,770 --> 00:31:06,250
a. What a sad. What a sad. He was

494
00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:10,090
arrested. Yes. Really. And

495
00:31:10,330 --> 00:31:13,570
I don't know, but I suspect he could only have been done for some money

496
00:31:13,570 --> 00:31:16,810
laundering infractions rather than the actual off.

497
00:31:17,590 --> 00:31:21,430
And I'm surprised he never got extradited. And he did. He did back

498
00:31:21,430 --> 00:31:24,950
home. He did, yeah. That's why I said it was a jurisdictional

499
00:31:25,030 --> 00:31:28,470
police thing. The ruse was to get him out the country

500
00:31:28,790 --> 00:31:32,470
because he felt more comfortable in London as well. He actually wanted

501
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:35,630
me to bring the money from that. And I said, why would I take the

502
00:31:35,630 --> 00:31:39,470
risk? It's not my money I'm laundering, you know, kind of thing.

503
00:31:39,470 --> 00:31:43,270
Right. And also he did. Yes, sorry, carry

504
00:31:43,270 --> 00:31:46,970
on. He had buried the notes and

505
00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:51,050
he was in prison for part of it. Part of the kidnapping.

506
00:31:51,370 --> 00:31:55,010
Sorry, I forget. Yes. God, I'm getting old. He

507
00:31:55,010 --> 00:31:58,810
was in prison for part of the kidnapping

508
00:31:59,050 --> 00:32:02,810
and he had buried the notes. And some of the notes were ruined when

509
00:32:02,810 --> 00:32:05,370
we recovered them. So much so.

510
00:32:11,940 --> 00:32:15,140
You'll see it on camera. That's it,

511
00:32:16,020 --> 00:32:19,620
yes. Wow.

512
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:22,980
So if I understood you correctly, you said that

513
00:32:24,580 --> 00:32:28,220
he requested. Was it a large amount that he was demanding? Was it like

514
00:32:28,220 --> 00:32:32,020
multi millions or what? It was quite a large amount for the time.

515
00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:35,140
And that's the thousand deutsche mark Deutschmark.

516
00:32:36,820 --> 00:32:39,220
And you said something that intrigued me. You said that

517
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,120
Germany decided to. Or was it Austria decided

518
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,840
to pull the currency or something.

519
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,600
Yeah. If you Google it, the currency was pooled at the time because the

520
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,840
kidnap ransom was never recovered. And so

521
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,000
explain to me what that actually meant. Because you can't just say people will not

522
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,240
be using Deutsche marks anymore or that's the

523
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,320
note itself. They changed the note. It's a thousand.

524
00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:13,140
And they changed the note and changed the denomination

525
00:33:13,220 --> 00:33:16,940
of that note. The 1000 Deutschmark was never available. Yeah,

526
00:33:16,940 --> 00:33:20,780
I see. Yeah. And do you know what? I've never opened this frame because

527
00:33:20,780 --> 00:33:23,140
it was given to me, you know, obviously by New Scotland.

528
00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:28,660
I think that is one of the genuine notes at the time.

529
00:33:29,540 --> 00:33:33,340
And apart from that, what was the one most. That was

530
00:33:33,340 --> 00:33:37,140
the scariest. What was the most satisfying? It could have been scariest as well.

531
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,440
What was the most satisfying undercover job? I would say that was probably

532
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,200
the most satisfying. There was a

533
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,000
lot of, you know, where you went to

534
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,640
parties. 4 kilos of cocaine and they were seized. So

535
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,640
that. That was satisfying as well. You know, I have to

536
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,240
say there are some great, great undercover police officers

537
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,450
who unfortunately deal with child,

538
00:34:04,170 --> 00:34:07,850
children related crimes and you are given that opportunity. But

539
00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:10,650
hand on my heart, I said no, it. I couldn't do that.

540
00:34:11,770 --> 00:34:14,850
I couldn't do that. There's no way I would do that. But there were some

541
00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:18,210
great police officers who, you know, did arrest pedophiles,

542
00:34:18,210 --> 00:34:21,850
etc. But I'd already stated that's not an area

543
00:34:22,570 --> 00:34:26,330
I could manage mentally. Yeah, no,

544
00:34:26,330 --> 00:34:30,170
I understand that. And did you ever, and if

545
00:34:30,170 --> 00:34:33,610
so, when, get this overwhelming

546
00:34:33,610 --> 00:34:37,290
feeling that you were fighting a losing battle as a police

547
00:34:37,290 --> 00:34:40,730
officer or you never got to that

548
00:34:40,730 --> 00:34:44,290
stage? I never got to that stage until

549
00:34:44,770 --> 00:34:48,570
I was in the police when I had my daughter. And whilst

550
00:34:48,570 --> 00:34:52,410
I was on maternity leave, I did do. I was asked to do

551
00:34:52,410 --> 00:34:56,240
some undercover work, right. And I had

552
00:34:56,240 --> 00:34:59,760
had the baby, but obviously babies in nursery went and did a

553
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,240
undercover job. People arrested also had to take the

554
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:06,960
baby when she was born to court because I think she was

555
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,720
about three weeks old. But I was given evidence of Crown Court and

556
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:14,000
they needed me. So I said, look, as long as the baby can come because

557
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,720
I've got nobody else to look after the baby, I'm feeding her, et

558
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:21,560
cetera, et cetera. So I did all of that. And then I'd moved

559
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,930
to the City of London Police by then. And one of the senior

560
00:35:24,930 --> 00:35:28,730
managers who. It was the first time I actually would say I

561
00:35:28,730 --> 00:35:32,490
lost it. I went back to work and I was four days

562
00:35:32,490 --> 00:35:36,290
a week because part time working was quite unusual.

563
00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:40,810
And he said, right, thanks very much, you'll no longer be working

564
00:35:40,810 --> 00:35:44,570
undercover because you're part time. And I was like, but you just

565
00:35:44,570 --> 00:35:48,210
got me to do a job like a couple of months ago. What

566
00:35:48,210 --> 00:35:51,660
changed in the interim? And he sort of said, I've made my decision

567
00:35:52,060 --> 00:35:55,660
in his office. He kicked me out in the end, I lost it. And said,

568
00:35:56,460 --> 00:36:00,260
no, I want you to tell me exactly what's changed and

569
00:36:00,260 --> 00:36:03,500
why you're making this decision and I don't agree with your decision. And he

570
00:36:04,300 --> 00:36:07,020
went on a rant, you know, how dare you question me? And I said, I

571
00:36:07,020 --> 00:36:10,180
am questioning you. And he was going to get out of my office. And I

572
00:36:10,180 --> 00:36:13,860
said, I'm not getting out your office until you explain. And that was the day

573
00:36:13,860 --> 00:36:17,600
I walked out. I thought, nah, this is enough. It's not

574
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,360
for you, it's not for me, I can't do it anymore. Which is a shame

575
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,880
because I would have done the full service, probably.

576
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,720
Yeah. And what did you ever find out? Did your colleagues or

577
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:32,040
anyone ever find out why on earth he made that decision?

578
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,160
I put it down to, you know, usual, it's a woman, why

579
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,320
should she be doing it? Whatever racism,

580
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,600
whatever. He was just old style, whatever, old style.

581
00:36:44,910 --> 00:36:48,510
And, you know, I was doing joint work for the City of London Police

582
00:36:48,510 --> 00:36:51,750
and the Met Police and it could have been that, well, you're not working for

583
00:36:51,750 --> 00:36:55,430
us, albeit you're all doing the same job for the

584
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:59,070
same good. Yeah, yeah. And what made you move from the

585
00:36:59,070 --> 00:37:02,630
Met to the City of London? It was to work more on undercover

586
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:06,150
financial crime because they were. They still are the

587
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:09,550
leading force. And I'd been working

588
00:37:10,380 --> 00:37:14,020
undercover with some of the banks where I understood the banking

589
00:37:14,020 --> 00:37:17,580
system. I worked a lot with the bank of Pakistan, bank of India,

590
00:37:19,260 --> 00:37:22,860
and, you know, understood how they did what, how money was

591
00:37:22,860 --> 00:37:25,980
moved to. You know, I think you didn't ever.

592
00:37:27,180 --> 00:37:30,940
You didn't ever come across Ron Warmington in your undercover work, did you?

593
00:37:30,940 --> 00:37:34,620
I did, and that's where I met Ron. And

594
00:37:34,860 --> 00:37:38,420
part of the leaving decision was that, you know, Ron did offer

595
00:37:38,420 --> 00:37:41,900
me a role three days a week. How flexible were they?

596
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:45,580
Citigroup. And that's how I ended up

597
00:37:45,580 --> 00:37:48,900
leaving. I had a break in between. But then a

598
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:52,740
vacancy came up and Ron kindly interviewed me

599
00:37:52,740 --> 00:37:56,540
and said, of course, three days a week is not a problem at all.

600
00:37:56,780 --> 00:38:00,460
And you might think how different from the public sector, the

601
00:38:00,460 --> 00:38:04,300
corporate sector. And Ron's thinking, you know, is out the box

602
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:08,080
anyway. Yes. But the good news is that you had

603
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,280
the good fortune of coming across him

604
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,440
because, you know, he would not. He

605
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,240
wouldn't. He understood risk and how to manage things and

606
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:22,479
was not afraid of making a wrong decision or being

607
00:38:22,479 --> 00:38:26,320
criticized. And so using undercover people for him was like,

608
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,360
that's. If that's what we're going to do to find the criminals and to

609
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,690
protect the bank. That's what he would do. Yeah. And, you know,

610
00:38:33,690 --> 00:38:37,450
Citigroup is one of the banks we used as a ruse, as part of

611
00:38:37,450 --> 00:38:40,970
the process. And that's, that's where I. Yes. Yeah.

612
00:38:41,210 --> 00:38:44,970
I wonder if you were at the bank or knew Ron

613
00:38:44,970 --> 00:38:48,490
when they had this scam where

614
00:38:48,490 --> 00:38:52,250
we. I did some work for him as well. Where

615
00:38:52,250 --> 00:38:55,930
they were. The people were offering forged.

616
00:38:56,490 --> 00:39:00,330
I think they were called either Ginnie Maes or Fannie Mae's or something.

617
00:39:01,150 --> 00:39:04,950
American Security Instruments. Does that ring any bell or not?

618
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:08,630
Yes, yeah, yeah. We did the old certificates job. Gosh,

619
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:12,270
what was it? The, you know, when they were supposed to be destroyed

620
00:39:12,910 --> 00:39:16,750
and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did a couple of

621
00:39:16,750 --> 00:39:20,390
bets on those and recovered some of those. And I remember Ron

622
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:24,030
saying to me that, you know, they had this whole setup and

623
00:39:24,430 --> 00:39:27,840
the guys were arrested. I don't think for certain

624
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,000
reasons they weren't charged.

625
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,040
And then they had the cheek, these guys,

626
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,680
when they got back to the U.S. they started, they.

627
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,520
Yeah, and they started a lawsuit against Ron, who had

628
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,040
to go and Give evidence, didn't he?

629
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,560
I mean, there is no limit to the. To the

630
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,880
cheek and the. And the

631
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,440
bravado of these guys. Interesting times. I mean,

632
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,120
I assume it's tougher now for any undercover police

633
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,840
officer. Really, really tough job to do, so hats off to

634
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,440
them. Yes, yes. And it's

635
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,240
interesting, I guess, because just laws have become more complicated.

636
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,880
I don't know if I'm right, but I would feel that there's just much

637
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,000
more inhibition about the public private sector

638
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:25,510
partnership in financial crime. I don't know of

639
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:29,310
many situations where somebody in Ron's position would work hand in

640
00:40:29,310 --> 00:40:32,950
glove to do that kind of takedown, but maybe I'm wrong. Yeah,

641
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:36,590
no, it's all changed in the financial services now. I don't think

642
00:40:36,590 --> 00:40:40,150
any bank would take that risk. There may still be

643
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:43,910
a few, you know, lawyers listers out there that would see.

644
00:40:44,070 --> 00:40:46,630
Okay, as long as we've got the approvals in place,

645
00:40:48,220 --> 00:40:51,980
and I think they should as well. I mean, you don't want to fight crime

646
00:40:51,980 --> 00:40:55,500
unless you use undercover police officers to understand

647
00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:58,860
what's going on. You joined Citibank to do exactly that, to do

648
00:40:58,860 --> 00:41:02,700
undercover work? No, no, I just became an investigator then. Yeah,

649
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:06,260
we did do a few bits and pieces, you know, when we were

650
00:41:06,260 --> 00:41:09,860
investigating. But, yes, became a fully fledged corporate

651
00:41:09,860 --> 00:41:13,420
investigator. So I was with Citigroup for four years. Great

652
00:41:13,660 --> 00:41:17,420
learning ground, you know. Absolutely amazing people. Yeah. Who else

653
00:41:17,420 --> 00:41:20,260
was part of that team at the time? Or were you the first member of

654
00:41:20,260 --> 00:41:23,900
the team reporting to Ron? Steve Young was there before

655
00:41:23,980 --> 00:41:27,820
me. Who, you know, he was already there. Had you known

656
00:41:27,820 --> 00:41:31,500
Steve previously or not? Yes, yeah, I knew Steve from the police

657
00:41:32,220 --> 00:41:35,420
as well. So, yeah, I'd worked with him in the police. So

658
00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:39,460
we knew each other. And then a few other police officers

659
00:41:39,460 --> 00:41:43,150
joined from the city, from the Met. So, yeah, it was a great

660
00:41:43,150 --> 00:41:46,870
team. Really, really enjoyed my time there. Then,

661
00:41:46,870 --> 00:41:50,030
obviously, I was offered a role at Barclays, which was full time.

662
00:41:50,510 --> 00:41:54,350
I'd had my son by then, so both of them were. I think

663
00:41:54,590 --> 00:41:58,390
they were five. He was five and she was seven when I decided to work

664
00:41:58,390 --> 00:42:02,030
full time. Right. And then I moved to Citigroup full

665
00:42:02,030 --> 00:42:05,790
time. Did the old trek to Canary Wharf every day, five

666
00:42:05,790 --> 00:42:09,640
days a week. It's quite funny because my daughter says, how did

667
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,360
you manage it with kids? I said, I've got no idea.

668
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,680
You just got on with it. Just do it. So coming back to this concept

669
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,760
of corruption, when did you first

670
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,720
encounter it? Police corruption,

671
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:29,440
in the course of your work? I mean, you mentioned going on

672
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,960
to a raid and Somebody had been tipped off. Was there anything

673
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,590
more, more brazen than that that you'd come

674
00:42:36,590 --> 00:42:40,030
across? Because I was working, I was working

675
00:42:40,030 --> 00:42:43,750
undercover. I didn't see that much of it after that.

676
00:42:44,310 --> 00:42:48,030
But, you know, you'd hear rumors at the time, you

677
00:42:48,030 --> 00:42:51,550
know, I don't think the police corruption units were as strong as what they are

678
00:42:51,550 --> 00:42:55,110
today. So you knew it was there, but you could never

679
00:42:55,670 --> 00:42:59,390
figure out who was in the chain. I didn't work with what they called

680
00:42:59,390 --> 00:43:03,020
the Flying Squad, but there was some dodgy looking

681
00:43:03,020 --> 00:43:06,740
characters, let's say, that you thought, is that person really a

682
00:43:06,740 --> 00:43:10,580
police officer? Yes. Well, the rumor was that they were the worst of the worst.

683
00:43:10,580 --> 00:43:14,220
The Flying Squad, the Sweeney. But I can. Were you ever

684
00:43:14,220 --> 00:43:18,060
offered an incentive by somebody when you nick someone and he said, come on,

685
00:43:18,060 --> 00:43:21,780
darling, take 5,000 quid out of this or a bag of cocaine

686
00:43:21,780 --> 00:43:25,100
and let me off? No, no. I mean, there would be throwaway

687
00:43:25,100 --> 00:43:28,890
lines, but I think they knew I

688
00:43:28,890 --> 00:43:31,570
wasn't the sort that they could speak to.

689
00:43:32,370 --> 00:43:35,570
Right, so when you left and

690
00:43:36,050 --> 00:43:39,650
joined Citigroup was your first job. Yes.

691
00:43:40,370 --> 00:43:44,050
What was the biggest, apart from finding that refreshing attitude

692
00:43:44,050 --> 00:43:47,330
that you could work as an investigator full

693
00:43:47,970 --> 00:43:50,930
part time, what else were the major

694
00:43:51,410 --> 00:43:55,220
cultural changes that you found Moving into the private

695
00:43:55,220 --> 00:43:59,020
sector? Basher. Moving into the private sector. One thing you

696
00:43:59,020 --> 00:44:02,660
would say is, you know, the racism wasn't that

697
00:44:03,380 --> 00:44:07,060
City and Barclays is full of

698
00:44:07,460 --> 00:44:09,700
culture, people from different

699
00:44:11,620 --> 00:44:15,300
ethnicities, but the sexism was there. So you

700
00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:18,980
move from, okay, one piece. You can tick that box that.

701
00:44:19,220 --> 00:44:23,060
Oh, I shouldn't say it was as blatant, maybe a better thing.

702
00:44:23,540 --> 00:44:26,740
But in the corporate sector, the sexism is

703
00:44:26,740 --> 00:44:30,020
definitely there. And that was. Wow.

704
00:44:30,340 --> 00:44:33,780
But not within my own team. It was some of the

705
00:44:33,780 --> 00:44:37,580
investigations you've dealt with, the harassment in the workplace, you

706
00:44:37,580 --> 00:44:41,300
were thinking, and it still happens to this day, and you just still

707
00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:44,580
sort of shake your head. Good. What is going on

708
00:44:44,900 --> 00:44:48,740
in the financial services? I would say we do adhere

709
00:44:48,740 --> 00:44:52,580
to strict compliance. It's dealt with. I moved on to oil and gas

710
00:44:53,540 --> 00:44:56,740
and then, you know, obviously I was at British American Tobacco,

711
00:44:57,300 --> 00:45:00,700
that you'd see that, you know, workplace

712
00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:04,460
harassment still exists and you sometimes shake your head

713
00:45:04,460 --> 00:45:07,780
at some of the things you have to deal with. Yeah, it's really

714
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:12,020
both scary and depressing.

715
00:45:12,820 --> 00:45:16,130
You moved across to

716
00:45:16,130 --> 00:45:19,970
Barclays and in fact, as I was using my good friend

717
00:45:19,970 --> 00:45:23,210
chatgpt, I said, look, find out when,

718
00:45:23,770 --> 00:45:27,290
if you will, please, track Basha's movements through the police.

719
00:45:27,530 --> 00:45:31,330
Sorry, through the corporate sector and any events that were

720
00:45:31,330 --> 00:45:35,010
going on and of its own, Volition he said, this lady seems to have

721
00:45:35,010 --> 00:45:38,770
been arriving at each institution when they

722
00:45:38,770 --> 00:45:42,090
were like in the middle of some really tough stuff. So

723
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,440
I was going to ask you, does it follow you or do you create it?

724
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,160
But that's just a cheeky comment. But when

725
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:52,680
you were at Barclays, am I right that, that was right in the heart

726
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,520
of Libor Forex Qatar. Were you right in the

727
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,320
middle of that? We were on the periphery where we dealt

728
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,000
with the ediscovery, for example,

729
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,720
because obviously we had lawyers who were managing most

730
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:12,480
of it. But yeah, and you know what, we had American

731
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:15,720
management, let's say, and their

732
00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:19,480
behaviors in the workplace weren't great. You know,

733
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,320
you had the shouting, throwing the funds about in

734
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,480
the workplace, and that's changed over time.

735
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,560
So you would know the

736
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,670
senior management, I would say, could be very volatile in

737
00:46:34,830 --> 00:46:38,270
banking, in private banking and investment banking.

738
00:46:38,590 --> 00:46:42,070
But these people were making money, so they were kind of

739
00:46:42,070 --> 00:46:45,910
untouchable by the investigations team. So, you know,

740
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:49,630
you'd hear about things that were happening or you'd deal with an issue and

741
00:46:49,790 --> 00:46:53,470
it would be okay, then, thanks for researching that,

742
00:46:53,550 --> 00:46:57,070
thanks for the investigation report. And then you'd hear nothing.

743
00:46:57,550 --> 00:47:01,230
And people would, so there were, without naming banks or people,

744
00:47:01,230 --> 00:47:04,870
there were times when you, the trail ended with

745
00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:08,190
somebody higher up, but you just couldn't get there.

746
00:47:08,590 --> 00:47:12,430
You would manage the investigation, but the result of the investigation

747
00:47:12,430 --> 00:47:14,750
was out of your hands. Right.

748
00:47:16,430 --> 00:47:17,710
And indeed the

749
00:47:19,790 --> 00:47:23,550
implications of it would be the removal of somebody who had done something wrong.

750
00:47:23,550 --> 00:47:27,390
But what about the, even the, I guess it goes with it,

751
00:47:27,390 --> 00:47:30,920
the publication of the results of it would be just

752
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,640
buried and they would never be seen again, Is that it? Yeah, that

753
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,360
kind of thing. And of the crises that I mentioned, which

754
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,200
of them, if any, had any real impact upon you and

755
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,880
your, and the way that you either perceived

756
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,320
the bank, et cetera, I mean, the Qatar

757
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,920
financing was pretty significant

758
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,280
at the time. Were you around then or were you on the periphery

759
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,970
of that? Were very much kept on the periphery because

760
00:48:00,970 --> 00:48:04,330
that was dealt with the legal teams to cover for

761
00:48:04,330 --> 00:48:08,050
privilege. So, you know, it was only what you had. So you

762
00:48:08,050 --> 00:48:10,970
weren't actually managing the investigation as such.

763
00:48:11,690 --> 00:48:15,370
But again, you know, I think it was great learning more

764
00:48:15,370 --> 00:48:19,130
than anything else of how these things are managed, how

765
00:48:19,130 --> 00:48:22,330
the investigation's managed, and then you'd see the outcome.

766
00:48:22,730 --> 00:48:26,420
And were you involved either at City or

767
00:48:26,420 --> 00:48:30,140
at Barclays in advising on or

768
00:48:30,140 --> 00:48:33,380
retaining external investigators? Did you work with the

769
00:48:33,380 --> 00:48:37,100
Krolls or the. Was that something that ever came your way?

770
00:48:37,260 --> 00:48:40,140
Yes, we did. For some of the larger investigations

771
00:48:41,420 --> 00:48:45,020
and, you know, one of the investigations I was. Yeah, I remember now,

772
00:48:45,020 --> 00:48:48,660
was towards the end of me leaving Barclays, I did have

773
00:48:48,660 --> 00:48:52,380
to go and give evidence to the FBI, the

774
00:48:52,380 --> 00:48:56,060
DIA, DEA, sorry, and whoever else. We

775
00:48:56,060 --> 00:48:59,900
had 10 at the American Embassy who turned up, and little old

776
00:48:59,900 --> 00:49:03,740
me. And that was quite a funny story because they had, like, all the

777
00:49:03,740 --> 00:49:07,500
files of the investigation. There was lots of paperwork on the table and

778
00:49:07,500 --> 00:49:11,140
they kept asking me questions and I'd answer them and they'd go, but you said,

779
00:49:11,380 --> 00:49:14,140
blah, blah, blah. And I said, look, can I look at the document? And I'd

780
00:49:14,140 --> 00:49:17,890
look through the paperwork. Yeah, there is. There's the. And then they'd

781
00:49:17,890 --> 00:49:21,570
ask another question. I said, look, I think you know the answer, right?

782
00:49:21,570 --> 00:49:25,370
We're all investigators in this room. I think you've got the answer.

783
00:49:25,370 --> 00:49:28,490
Why don't you just show it to me and I can say yes or no?

784
00:49:28,890 --> 00:49:31,970
I said, because I've been here three hours now and this is just going around

785
00:49:31,970 --> 00:49:34,970
the houses. He wasn't best pleased with that.

786
00:49:36,570 --> 00:49:40,370
I thought, what was he trying to catch you out as? He was

787
00:49:40,370 --> 00:49:44,120
trying to catch me out as an investigator because I had done the

788
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,880
investigation. Obviously they were looking to bring some sort of fine to

789
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,480
this bank I was working with at the time, but it was just like I

790
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,160
had done a thorough investigation. You've got loads of paper files there. He was

791
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,480
asking me what decisions I'd made, how I'd done the investigation,

792
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,640
and I'd answer them best I could, but. And I'd done

793
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:06,480
prep, et cetera. It was just like, well, you know, you're

794
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,200
looking through 10 ring binders of documents all stacked

795
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,970
in front of you, but he's got his own copy and he's obviously highlighted what

796
00:50:13,970 --> 00:50:17,770
he wants to ask. And that's one of the things about investigative

797
00:50:17,770 --> 00:50:21,170
interviewing. Yes. You can do that

798
00:50:21,170 --> 00:50:25,010
blindsided, listen to their story and go, how about this? And put

799
00:50:25,010 --> 00:50:28,650
the document in front of them. But, you know, investigator to

800
00:50:28,650 --> 00:50:32,090
investigate. I hadn't done anything wrong. Obviously, they were

801
00:50:32,090 --> 00:50:35,050
gunning for this financial services.

802
00:50:35,850 --> 00:50:39,640
And it just made me laugh because I thought, yeah, I know

803
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,400
where this is going. Yeah, it was pretty

804
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,160
amateurish sleuthing, in your view. Yes.

805
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,600
And coming to this, which is everyone finds

806
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,360
fascinating, or at least I do investigative

807
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:59,120
interviewing. Did you get specialized training

808
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,960
or do you just watch and learn? How did you gain your experience

809
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,090
in how to. How to conduct an interview and also

810
00:51:06,570 --> 00:51:10,330
either with a witness within your bank that you needed to help you or

811
00:51:10,650 --> 00:51:14,330
somebody that wasn't so helpful, how did you learn

812
00:51:14,490 --> 00:51:18,250
what. How to behave and what to do, I think from the police, you

813
00:51:18,250 --> 00:51:22,050
do a lot of, let's say, interviewing, you need

814
00:51:22,050 --> 00:51:25,850
to be able to talk to people. So, you know, in the first instance,

815
00:51:25,850 --> 00:51:29,690
if you turn up a domestic violence, you got a volatile person

816
00:51:29,690 --> 00:51:33,370
that you've got to calm down in the. You've got your colleague to

817
00:51:33,370 --> 00:51:37,210
sort of talk to and you've got the radio blasting of like, okay, I've got

818
00:51:37,210 --> 00:51:40,970
to manage three conversations here. You know, what is it we're going to do? What

819
00:51:40,970 --> 00:51:44,130
is it we're going to find? And I think that's a great

820
00:51:44,370 --> 00:51:48,130
grounding for holding a conversation which then,

821
00:51:48,130 --> 00:51:51,570
if you move into the investigative interviewing phase,

822
00:51:52,290 --> 00:51:55,410
you know what's happened. You've got to have a lot of preparation,

823
00:51:56,130 --> 00:51:59,630
but expect the unexpected is what I always

824
00:51:59,630 --> 00:52:03,310
say. But listen carefully to what they're

825
00:52:03,310 --> 00:52:06,990
saying and follow that interview as such and

826
00:52:06,990 --> 00:52:10,670
be prepared there. It takes a completely different route to what you

827
00:52:10,670 --> 00:52:14,349
expected. So from the police service, then from

828
00:52:14,349 --> 00:52:17,870
experienced colleagues, obviously, that I joined in the corporate

829
00:52:17,870 --> 00:52:21,550
sector and then training myself, other colleagues,

830
00:52:21,550 --> 00:52:25,070
and now I'm with the association of Corporate

831
00:52:25,070 --> 00:52:28,840
Investigators and we do this training. But to this day

832
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,960
I still see some bad interviews where you're sort of saying,

833
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,080
okay, we went through everything, but you didn't ask a question. Say,

834
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:37,880
for example, did you do it?

835
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,040
We can get to the end of the interview, but just ask the question, did

836
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:47,760
you do it? One simple question. Yeah, yeah. You know,

837
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,400
those hard questions. Was there a

838
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,130
particular course? Maybe, hopefully the ACI do it. But when

839
00:52:55,130 --> 00:52:58,810
you were moving your way through from the police, did the

840
00:52:58,810 --> 00:53:01,810
police have a module, if I can use that word,

841
00:53:02,290 --> 00:53:05,890
interviewing a suspect? Right. Here's how you prepare for it.

842
00:53:05,970 --> 00:53:09,810
Here's the question you shouldn't ask here. The closed, open questions.

843
00:53:09,810 --> 00:53:13,570
You get specific training. Yeah, they have the peace

844
00:53:13,570 --> 00:53:17,330
module, which you still follow to this day. There's different

845
00:53:17,410 --> 00:53:20,980
modules out there, but don't Forget we did 20

846
00:53:20,980 --> 00:53:24,140
weeks training before we were let out loose to the public.

847
00:53:25,020 --> 00:53:28,060
And those were classrooms, you know, for 20 weeks

848
00:53:29,020 --> 00:53:32,660
every day standing. Was it top

849
00:53:32,660 --> 00:53:36,460
class training? I think they got through what they had

850
00:53:36,460 --> 00:53:40,180
to do because, you know,

851
00:53:40,180 --> 00:53:43,820
sometimes the, the trainers were police officers who were at the end of their

852
00:53:43,820 --> 00:53:47,630
career or police officers who didn't want to do the hard work out in the

853
00:53:47,630 --> 00:53:51,150
street. So you took from it what you could. But being

854
00:53:51,150 --> 00:53:54,470
a good conversationalist and being a people person,

855
00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:57,750
I would say is sort of your starting point.

856
00:53:59,430 --> 00:54:01,910
Having empathy and interview,

857
00:54:02,870 --> 00:54:06,470
regardless of what the person's done, treating them as a human

858
00:54:06,470 --> 00:54:10,030
being, all of that falls into place. You

859
00:54:10,030 --> 00:54:13,750
can't go in thinking I know he did it or I don't like this

860
00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:17,370
person. You just gotta be so independent and have your

861
00:54:17,370 --> 00:54:21,130
own thought process, which I'd like to think I'm good

862
00:54:21,130 --> 00:54:24,890
at. So aggressiveness has no real place in

863
00:54:24,890 --> 00:54:28,370
an interview at all, right? No, if you're aggressive, they're going to be

864
00:54:28,370 --> 00:54:30,730
aggressive or they're going to close down.

865
00:54:32,250 --> 00:54:35,610
You're never going to get to the truth. And being in the

866
00:54:35,610 --> 00:54:39,210
corporate sector, we are cost

867
00:54:39,210 --> 00:54:42,750
centers as investigators. So I don't bring any money

868
00:54:42,750 --> 00:54:46,550
in. So I'm costing the, the bank or whichever

869
00:54:46,550 --> 00:54:50,190
company I'm working for organization. So I have to understand

870
00:54:50,430 --> 00:54:53,990
what is the problem, what did they do and how are we going to fix

871
00:54:53,990 --> 00:54:57,710
it? Just prevent this happening again. And that

872
00:54:57,710 --> 00:55:01,390
is a better way of looking at it from

873
00:55:01,390 --> 00:55:05,230
that aspect and you know, it. Same could apply for police officers. You know, what

874
00:55:05,230 --> 00:55:08,870
did they do, why did they do it, how did they do it? Having an

875
00:55:08,870 --> 00:55:12,190
understanding of that to prevent it best you can ain't happening.

876
00:55:13,230 --> 00:55:17,070
Or B making sure you've secured that evidence. Did you ever think

877
00:55:17,070 --> 00:55:20,270
along the road you mentioned that you did some

878
00:55:20,430 --> 00:55:23,550
instructing of external investigators. Did it ever

879
00:55:23,870 --> 00:55:27,430
cross your mind, I tell you what, why don't I go and make my career

880
00:55:27,430 --> 00:55:30,990
in a crawl or a control risk or something. Were you

881
00:55:30,990 --> 00:55:34,830
interested in joining that part of the investigative

882
00:55:34,830 --> 00:55:37,870
sector? I would have done, but I couldn't take

883
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:42,280
the financial risk. And it's, you know, it's a personal story because I got

884
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,120
divorced, I had two young kids, I was a single mom. Yeah. Now

885
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,120
that I've got made redundant again, I can afford to relax

886
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:53,800
because children are grown up. And now I see it that

887
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,200
where I can be my own, you know, be my own boss. But

888
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,760
unfortunately not at the time I couldn't risk it. I needed the

889
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,360
financial income basically. No, no, I get it. It's not

890
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,350
the investigative market. I mean compared to, I

891
00:56:08,350 --> 00:56:12,110
don't know, 20 years ago, it's now there are

892
00:56:12,110 --> 00:56:14,550
so many more investigative companies,

893
00:56:15,110 --> 00:56:18,790
consultancies that have intelligence and investigative

894
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:23,150
capabilities. It's a different employer, employment

895
00:56:23,150 --> 00:56:26,910
arena and business arena at the moment. Because, you

896
00:56:26,910 --> 00:56:30,630
know, just from the point of view of the contacts you've got in the financial

897
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:34,700
services industry, I would think that you could join

898
00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:38,100
any of these independent service providers

899
00:56:39,380 --> 00:56:42,660
because again, it's down to what business can you bring with you,

900
00:56:42,660 --> 00:56:46,100
Basha. You've got great connections with people that trust,

901
00:56:46,500 --> 00:56:50,220
et cetera, et cetera. But anyway, maybe that's the next stage of

902
00:56:50,220 --> 00:56:53,300
your career, Basha. Who knows? I like the

903
00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:57,020
Independencies. So I'm happy to work, but I think

904
00:56:57,020 --> 00:57:00,240
I'll be working for myself and making my own

905
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:03,880
decisions now that. Now that you can. And so

906
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,680
your current working environment is. You are still

907
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:11,000
at bat? No, no, I, I got. I was made redundant in May,

908
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,000
so I've joined. Steve Young, as you know, is now

909
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:18,560
running the association of Corporate Investigators. So I'm

910
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:22,280
helping build that. And again, you know, it's. It's meeting

911
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,950
lots of corporate investigators, people

912
00:57:25,950 --> 00:57:29,470
in legal and compliance and risk. So really, really

913
00:57:29,470 --> 00:57:33,310
enjoying that and then bringing together great

914
00:57:33,390 --> 00:57:36,710
forums of people. And, you know, obviously I'm going to be working with you at

915
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:40,270
the IfG group, and I find that

916
00:57:40,670 --> 00:57:43,790
really, really rich. And it's a way of giving back

917
00:57:44,670 --> 00:57:48,470
now that you have sort of decided you're at the end of your

918
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:52,310
career. I'm just taking the time off really, to decide what

919
00:57:52,310 --> 00:57:56,120
I want to do now. And lucky to be in

920
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,080
that position compared to other people.

921
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,200
So kind of watch this space. You could. Well, I could well be talking

922
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,880
to you in a couple of weeks or months, and you might be appearing

923
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,280
as a partner or whatever with

924
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,760
one of the investigators that I know and love. Yes,

925
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,520
yes. Who knows? Who knows? But I think I do want to enjoy the

926
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:23,070
rest of 2026, just connecting with

927
00:58:23,070 --> 00:58:26,830
people, let's say connecting with people and meeting people.

928
00:58:27,310 --> 00:58:30,270
Excellent. And I think it's probably worth

929
00:58:30,750 --> 00:58:34,550
asking you this question that we've just ticked over into an

930
00:58:34,550 --> 00:58:38,270
hour. But the final, the final question is going to be

931
00:58:38,990 --> 00:58:42,110
over the years you've been working,

932
00:58:42,910 --> 00:58:46,670
I hope, alongside with maybe sometimes on the receiving end

933
00:58:46,670 --> 00:58:50,430
of questions or investigations conducted by lawyers,

934
00:58:51,260 --> 00:58:54,140
do lawyers, in your view, make good,

935
00:58:54,780 --> 00:58:58,420
bad, not very good investigators? What's

936
00:58:58,420 --> 00:59:02,220
your impression over the years of meeting people who. Meeting

937
00:59:02,300 --> 00:59:06,100
investigators who either are lawyers or have come from

938
00:59:06,100 --> 00:59:09,820
the legal profession? I think it's changing. Previously

939
00:59:09,820 --> 00:59:13,420
they didn't, I have to say that, because

940
00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:16,940
obviously they didn't want to, didn't make good investigators.

941
00:59:17,450 --> 00:59:21,050
Okay. But that has changed. And, you know, there are some

942
00:59:21,050 --> 00:59:24,650
very good lawyers out there. But my view is, and this is obviously my

943
00:59:24,650 --> 00:59:27,690
personal view is lawyers should be lawyers

944
00:59:28,250 --> 00:59:31,290
and allow the investigator to do the investigation

945
00:59:32,170 --> 00:59:35,970
and then take it from that. You know, lawyers have to look

946
00:59:35,970 --> 00:59:39,730
at legal privilege. We can ask the questions. They can

947
00:59:39,730 --> 00:59:43,410
then deal with the issues. So they do. They do come from a

948
00:59:43,410 --> 00:59:47,190
different mindset. They are governed by different, et cetera,

949
00:59:47,190 --> 00:59:50,670
et cetera. They will be writing the legal opinion. So I think you

950
00:59:50,670 --> 00:59:54,430
desperately need to separate to best. So you need

951
00:59:54,430 --> 00:59:57,990
some independence between those, those disciplines.

952
00:59:57,990 --> 01:00:01,630
Between, particularly if they're in a bank or whatever. Yeah, bank. Whichever

953
01:00:01,630 --> 01:00:05,350
organization. And I think when you come across

954
01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:09,030
a lawyer who completely understands that you have a completely

955
01:00:09,030 --> 01:00:12,310
great working relationship and the lawyer is grateful for the work

956
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:16,510
investigator does, and we're grateful that they're taking the legal piece

957
01:00:16,510 --> 01:00:20,270
away from us and they've got a good work product at the end

958
01:00:20,270 --> 01:00:24,070
of the day, you know, there's the work product. You can now

959
01:00:24,070 --> 01:00:27,870
work with that. Excellent. Well, Basha, as I suspected,

960
01:00:27,870 --> 01:00:30,990
I've asked about 20% of my

961
01:00:30,990 --> 01:00:34,310
questions, but the time has come to

962
01:00:34,710 --> 01:00:37,510
enable you to go off and enjoy the

963
01:00:37,830 --> 01:00:41,070
beginnings maybe of the weekend, which apparently is going to be a

964
01:00:41,070 --> 01:00:44,790
scorcher. I really appreciate your joining me.

965
01:00:44,790 --> 01:00:48,190
I'm really looking forward to getting you back on as I

966
01:00:48,190 --> 01:00:52,030
sift through the other questions and also maybe, you

967
01:00:52,030 --> 01:00:55,830
know, next stage of your career. Who knows? That might be an

968
01:00:55,830 --> 01:00:59,430
interesting start. Launch pad for the next podcast.

969
01:00:59,990 --> 01:01:03,590
Well, you enjoy the weekend as well and thank you very much. Great

970
01:01:03,590 --> 01:01:07,430
conversation. No, you're very welcome. You're very welcome. And see you soon,

971
01:01:07,510 --> 01:01:11,110
I hope. Yep. Take care. Bye. Take care. Bye.

972
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:16,230
Thank you for listening. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please click and

973
01:01:16,230 --> 01:01:20,070
subscribe to the Intelligence Advantage podcast on Spotify

974
01:01:20,230 --> 01:01:21,830
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