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All right. Welcome, everyone. My name is Scott Shepherd, and I'm the host and founder of the
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City's First podcast. We're really excited today to have Salika Josiah Talbot, who is
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an industry leader in autonomy, electrification, as well as all things related to future mobility.
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And it's a real pleasure to have you here today. Thanks for joining us.
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Thank you for having me. Good morning, Scott.
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Yeah, this is a real pleasure. And I know we're kind of multiple times on here. So I'm here in
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Lisbon, Portugal, and you're in my hometown of Los Angeles, but we're able to make it work. So
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that's kind of the beauty of our podcast and the reach of our audience. So we're really starting
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to kind of bridge the gap in terms of, let's say, mobility innovation in the US, North America,
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and here in Europe as well, too. So our audience is growing, and you're kind of part of the community
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that we're building. So, you know, we're really happy to have you. So we'll get started. And as
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the audience and the viewers kind of know our theme and our format, we'll just kick things off.
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I'll kind of go over your bio. We'll pose a few questions for you that we'll have basically as a
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nice conversation, kind of go through some of the exploration and do a deep dive into your insights.
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Then we'll just kind of shine a spotlight into the look ahead for the next 24 months,
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basically what you see in terms of crystal ball for mobility tech and autonomy. And then we'll
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just kind of wrap things up where audience and viewers can find you on social media and whatnot.
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So with that, we'll get started here. So let me kind of just go through the bio and then we'll kick
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things off. So first in many spaces, Celica Josiah Talbot is known by her colleagues as an
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influential agent for positive change who leads with confidence and approaches the most difficult
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and complex challenges with perseverance and commitment to success. As the founder and CEO
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of autonomous vehicle consulting, Celica is a leading industry voice for responsible investment,
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engagement and preparation for new mobility, including robot delivery, autonomous and electric
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vehicles and self driven freight. Celica served as the deputy administrator of the New Jersey
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Motor Vehicle Commission as gubernatorial appointee. Most recently, Celica served at the U.S. Department
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of Transportation, Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration as the senior advisor to the
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administrator. So very impressive credentials and real strong background at the federal level and
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at the state level as well too. So we're really, really excited to kind of do this deep dive.
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And with that, we'll just kind of kick things off and get started with our format and our questions.
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So the first question that I'll kind of post you, it's really a burning topic that's really
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top of mind for urban planners, policymakers, as well as others in the mobility tech spaces around
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vision zero. So very broad question, but just we'll kind of take multiple paths to this is
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what's basically the path forward for vision zero in the U.S. From what we've seen over the last
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few years of implementations by states and cities and many different outcomes related to pedestrian
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safety, cycle safety, as well as a lot of the conflict and pain points that we've seen
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during the COVID pandemic as well too. So what's your take on that?
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You know, it might seem like an easy question that you're asking up front vision zero. We've all
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been marching towards the idea or the notion that we're going to remove all crashes. We're
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going to prevent deaths and injuries on our roadways. And the premise behind it is a good
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premise. It is well meaning, but I think it's lost its zizzle, its dazzle, the spark to vision zero.
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The general public doesn't really understand what it means. People don't know about the
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amount of people who are dying on our roadways every day. You have people probably more afraid
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to fly than they are to drive, yet driving, we know statistically is much more dangerous.
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I think we have to change our language. I think we have to go back to basics and start to teach
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education. In more states than not, children don't get a driver's license education if they want it.
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We don't teach basic mobility education, and yet we're putting more and more transportation options
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into our ecosystem. So now we have scooters and e-bikes and robot delivery and all these other
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things that we've added to an environment that was already dangerous and said good luck. The other
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part of that is if vision zero says we are going to attack it through enforcement of
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laws on our roadways, well, we can see that that also is not working very well.
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I like to do this litmus test when I go to a new place. I just came out from vacation and I ask
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people, do you know if it's legal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalks in the town that you live in?
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Most people don't know the answer to that question, or they presume it's a state responsibility,
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and I don't know. The state is not drawing the line here. It's essentially town by town and city
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by city. So if you come from a place that says you can ride it on the sidewalk and you go to a
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place that doesn't allow you to ride it on the sidewalk, where was that notification? We know
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it's from 25 to 35 or 50 miles an hour. We have a sign and it tells us, but the other things that
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we do regularly that we are encouraging people to do because we say this will reduce congestion or
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reduce traffic accidents, reduce deaths and injury. We are not educating the public. I selfishly,
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because this is my life's work now, if I'm marching to this drum, then we need to require
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basic mobility education in schools, and I think that that will do far more than platitudes and
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campaigns like Vision Zero. So it starts an early age, it starts in the educational system,
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and it has to work its way through all aspects of society for it to resonate, because like you
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said, the platitudes and the high-level policy goals, certainly that are set forth at the federal
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level and even at the state level fail to deliver the results related to performance measures that
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the expectations are set forth, which is why we kind of, I don't want to say we set ourselves up
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for failure in the US, but then we start comparing to other countries and other areas where we say,
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hey, well, look at how they're doing, like in Oslo, Norway, right? Like, well, zero pedestrian
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fatalities. Why can't we be like Oslo? I hear that all the time, right? Well, there's obviously
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different historical and cultural and geographic factors. There's a lot of other context to it,
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but if we are setting ourselves up for failure, then I completely agree that we need to get back
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to basics and also focus on really educating the entire society in terms of how, what is the
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importance as well as so that we can navigate this patchwork of laws and regulations at the
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local municipal level, because that's really where the rubber hits the road to pardon the pun here.
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Because, you know, you move, you know, for, let's take the LA example, you go from Culver City to
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LA or you go to Santa Monica, or then you're going to Inglewood or Beverly Hills. It's like, well,
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each city in Los Angeles County is going to have its own laws. What do you do, right? I mean,
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not every Angelino in Los Angeles County, a county of over 12 million people is going to know each
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of the 100 plus municipal laws in, you know, America's largest county, right? So that's just a
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perfect case in point right there. I'm going to give you another, I think it's important for me
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to share this example. I've begun to talk about it because I think it really, you know, really drills
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home this point. I'm an East Coaster. You can still hear my New York accent. I can hear Lula
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accent. Yeah. And I'm a West Coaster. I'm an Angelino. So here we come together. I lived in New
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York for a long time, born and raised, lived in New Jersey for over 20 years, lived in Washington,
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D.C. for over six years. And from the time that I had my driver's license as a teenager,
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all throughout those jurisdictions, I never had to take a road test or a written test.
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Move from one state to the next and sort of grandfathered in, sign on the dotted line,
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here is your driver's license. And then, as you know, a little over a year and a half ago,
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I moved to Los Angeles. And California says you have to take a driver's license test.
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Oh yeah. That's sounding good. You don't have to be on the road, but you certainly have to take
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a written test. Oh yeah, you do. And I guess maybe it's near and dear to my heart because,
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you know, I ran operations for the state of New Jersey's Motor Vehicle Commission, but
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I studied because I don't like to fail. So I wanted to ensure that I was going to pass it on the first
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try. And I know this, but again, it's something that I think the general public doesn't understand
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enough. Taking the written test and one of the questions was about lane splitting.
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So in California, it is perfectly legal for a motorcycle to drive between the lanes.
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It's not an exception to the rule. It's expected. And when you're on the highway,
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that's also another reason that we should stress looking to your left and looking to your right
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and making sure that you're viewing your blind spots because a motorcycle could be driving
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between the lanes. It's important to use your indicators and all of that. Well, on the east
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coast, it is not legal. In fact, in New York, if you are lane splitting, you are likely to get
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an appendage thrown up at you on the highway and maybe some exclamation X's, pound signs thrown at
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you for your conduct. But what happens when a New Yorker on vacation in California is driving
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and someone is lane splitting next to them? What's their reaction here? Well, they don't even know
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that it's illegal in this state or for the California. That goes to New York. That's even
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more probably. They try to lane split. And tries to lane split. Oh my. I love the country that I
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was born and raised in. But boy, are we making it difficult for people to move. And we set them up for
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really bad outcomes. So the New Yorker in California might get themselves into trouble if they're
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unhappy that someone's lane splitting. And the motorcyclists who's driving from California and in New
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York might find themselves with a ticket or more based on their conduct because we don't know. We
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don't teach those things. We don't share that information. And because it is so variable from
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state to state, it means we're setting up for crashes and injuries and even deaths in those
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circumstances. Yeah. And I can layer that in on this side of the pond in Europe. That's not,
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unless you kind of isolate a few countries such as Germany. I know you spent some time in Germany
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recently. Any country that's more of a federal or public tends to devolve state power down to the
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more the state and the local level. So you know, you have local decisions within the German states,
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which is kind of analogous to the US states in a way. But the rest of Europe is much more
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centralist, whether it's Spain, Portugal, France, et cetera. So power is basically vested as you
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know, you know, in the central government. So and that applies to mobility. So mobility laws,
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rules, legislation, at least here in Portugal, Spain, Italy is a bit more consistent. I'm not
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saying it's perfect or better than the US, but it's an interesting kind of comparison because
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you can see this translate for us who are working in the mobility space on both sides of
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the Atlantic, how we kind of deal with these challenges and differences across modalities,
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whether it's e-scooters, because I'm in the e-scooter space or for you and AVs, et cetera.
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And it just, it's fascinating. There's no, you know, silver bullet, but it's something we need to
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be cognizant of for certain. I think that's, I think that's the point I'm trying to make is
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states have operational authority. The federal government has the federal motor vehicle safety
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standards. I'm not even suggesting that states don't continue their operational authority. If
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they didn't have that, I probably wouldn't have had a job either. That was your former job.
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What I am saying though is we need to explain to people that the rules are different,
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different depending on what city you're in or what state you're in. And that those have implications
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for how you move on your roadway and you're correct. You know, Germany might be allowing
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sort of more local, more locally based decisions, but boy is it harder to get a driver's license
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there than it is in the United States. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's tough. Yeah. I used to work for a
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German company myself too in Berlin and yes, I've heard about the interesting, yes, yes,
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the interesting processes. I don't want to use red tape at processes. All right. I think we'll
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probably move on to our next question here. So basically, I want to talk about public and private
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stakeholders and pilot projects. So the question for you is how can public and private stakeholders
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move past pilot project fatigue towards long term mobility solutions? So this is kind of a
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question that I curated for you only because in my personal view, I believe that we have pilot
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project fatigue in the mobility space during and post smart cities movements, I would say circa
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2016, 2017, up until COVID and even beyond. And how do we operationalize and put these into
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long term public procurements, RFPs and multi-year contracts? Boy, that's a really good question.
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I think one of the reasons it becomes sort of a knee jerk for regulatory agencies to accept these
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pilot programs is because it gets them to a space of trying new mobilities much faster than if they
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went out for a traditional RFP. We've created so much red tape in government spaces that we make it
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virtually impossible for government to be innovative in any way, shape or form, but for a pilot project
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or program. And so once they start, government says, well, why would I stop this? If I determine
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that I'm going to go to an RFP, it might preclude the very actor that I have a relationship with
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now that is offering this program in my city. And the pathway there, you know, even once we award
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someone will protest that award and they spend a year or two either in litigation or in system
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processes, either at the state or federal government, before we can then settle on a source
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who then has a limited time within which to operate. So the solution often comes from the public.
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I say this because part of me is reticent because I am concerned with access issues in transportation,
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who has accessed the kinds of access we allow, what communities are often shut out as we move
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towards better transportation options. But if we're waiting for the government, you're exactly
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right, we will be fatigued, stressed, frustrated over a system that is not designed to be agile.
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I think when we start to look at new funding at the federal level, when we start to look at
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opportunities at the state level, I really say that this is the time for government to maybe
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create carve outs for the transportation industry because we are moving so rapidly.
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That the traditional way that we have done things isn't working anymore. If I want scooters, if I
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want robot delivery, God, if I want great EV charging infrastructure and, you know, in my
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dream of dreams, widespread autonomous vehicle usage, then the processes and systems we have in
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place today won't work. And the public sector is not going to be able to take the lead because
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that lead will then only slow the innovation. We have to turn and start to look at how can private
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industry pull government along in this instance rather than the public space by itself determining
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where, when, and how. We just don't possess the bandwidth for that. Or the bureaucratic
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operations that we have in place really will stymie innovation.
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And it seems like there's such a gap, I agree with what you say, and there's such a gap between
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what is tangible at the pilot project level and governments being very akin to that and more of
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the traditionalist bureaucratic structure around public procurements and RFPs. And there's not
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any, it seems at least in the US or many different instances in the mobility space, there's no gray
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jump from pilot project to the traditional RFP. And I don't see that happening. Obviously, there's
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learnings from other countries. I'll have to use the European example here. I'm sorry, but I'll
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layer this in because I'm on the side of the pond. But like in the Netherlands, you have the triple
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helix model, which, you know, public, private, and academia. And it's a real quick, quick to market,
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quick to innovation procurement. You're very familiar with that, I know. And maybe the audience
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is too. But there's other learnings that maybe cities and governments can really deploy to
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operationalize new mobility solutions that are post pilot project, but not multi year tenders or RFPs
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that are so, you know, Byzantine, that they're crushed under their own bureaucratic weight.
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And you go through this entire kind of litigious process, they're very Byzantine to use that
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term. And, you know, we talk about all these other governments in across the world that are
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very bureaucratic, but back home in the US, I mean, really, I think bureaucracy crushes us in terms of
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just sourcing, you know, services for the government sector and really the mobility space
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and how there's been such rapid innovation from Silicon Valley and other actors over the last four
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or five years really lays bare that, I would say, that burning issue. And there's room for
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improvement. I've written some articles myself on that. I'm sure you've spoken about that a lot
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yourself. And I'd like to see more gray area between the pilot project and, you know, the
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traditional procurements, but I don't see it happening yet. You know, one of the things that
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happened is, and certainly before I worked in government either at the state or federal level,
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you know, you want to snap your fingers and have it done instantly. Why is this taking government
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so long? And then once you're sort of inside or now you're seeing how the sauce is made,
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you have an understanding that you don't want government to move at the blink of an eye. If it
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did, our processes, the way that we interact would literally be lurching back and forth
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from one administration to the next, from one director to the next, from one administrator to
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the next. And you'd have whiplash as a nation. So you certainly don't want government to move like
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that. But there is, as you say, this gray area between snapping your fingers and moving like the
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Titanic. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Where's that gray area? Right. There's a little space in between.
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And, and that space is most especially in transportation where we need to be. If you
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think about, give an example outside of transportation, if you think about how government has addressed
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privacy laws and the internet and our ability to protect our personal and private information,
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the government hasn't sealed the deal on that yet. Or a few patchwork state laws like
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California has a lot of Massachusetts and what is like 40, 45 states have no laws on the books
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right now, I think for that. And we didn't get the internet yesterday. It's been around a while.
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So, you know, we've had a little time. And yet we don't have an agreement. We don't have real true
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federal policy to address these issues. Yeah, American GDPR basically. Where is it? And then
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here comes connected in shared mobility, and then electrification and an autonomous vehicle.
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The government says, well, we can't even agree. What should be driven? Where it should be driven?
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Who should be in the vehicle? How the vehicle moves on our roadways? It is almost disheartening.
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If you think about what we've been able to do in terms of protection for privacy and communications
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over the internet, and then when you say, well, where does that leave us in the connected autonomous
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shared and electric space? When are they going to get to us? People have been calling for action for
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a while. We've been saying this 2,500 vehicle minimum is not enough to really assist in widespread
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usage. I say, I'm going to look at it the converse way. Don't tell me what I can do in autonomous
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vehicle world. Tell me what I can't do. Just say, we're going to rule out, and I know the AV folks
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out there won't be happy with me when I say this, but I say it and I mean it. The federal government
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should say we're not going to move hazardous materials on autonomous vehicles, not at this
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junction. We're not ready to move hazardous materials in that fashion. We want a person aboard.
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Just say that. Just find a carve out that A, people who are pushing back against autonomous
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vehicles say, oh, well, that makes sense. If they're going to say that, maybe I could start to look at
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the rest of this in a positive manner, or say we're not going to move livestock on an autonomous
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vehicle, generally going on a 150 mile radius. When the chickens are all over the road, you might
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want someone there immediately. That'd be a good idea. I like that. Just have somebody say that.
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But instead, we're not saying anything, saying that we are not going to impede innovation,
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but we support safety is not a policy. It's a slogan. It's a platitude, like you said.
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It's an empty statement. It gets us nowhere. It really does. I'm not shy because I'm hoping
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that people in the right space is listened and understand how they are frankly damaging innovation.
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They are impeding it. We can't move forward if we don't have any policy or guidance. If we think that
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we as a nation are required to have federal arms around most or if not all transportation,
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why are we refusing to put federal arms around this or to acknowledge that you don't possess
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the requisite knowledge to properly oversee this area of transportation? If that's the case,
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then you form it out to someone who can. Who's the lead stakeholder that can actually
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move that forward? Because again, if it's not at the federal level, even though we've seen much
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support at the federal level for new innovation during this, let's say, peak smart cities hype
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circa 2016, 2017 pre-COVID, when the proverbial rubber hits the road and we're looking for
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policy guidance and actual frameworks and structures moving forward, the ball is being
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dropped though. We do need to figure out who else can lead that charge. Our final question,
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I think we have time for one more quick question here, is about your book. Let's talk about that
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real fast. How did your recent children's book, Sammy and Sally mobility series come about? Maybe
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you can tell us about that really briefly. It's all wrapped up in the things that I do. I practiced
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law for 20 years as a product liability defense lawyer. I represented franchises and spent a
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period of time doing criminal defense and even teaching how to defend a car crash from corporate
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side. I link that with the work that I did at the state and federal level and really circles
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back to the conversation that we started having about vision zero and learning for our children
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on our roadsways. We keep pushing all these wonderful innovations into the ecosystem, into our
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network of mobility and yet we're not teaching people how to move. When I'm on the roadway,
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at least once a week, if not sometimes once a day, I see some scooters zoom past some car
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who didn't see the scooter, I can tell, and is making a turn someplace. I see kids who don't
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stop for stop signs. I see cars with adults don't have their seat belts on. I just came
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back from Jamaica. The trip from Otorio's back to the airport in Montego Bay, our driver was stopped
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because they didn't have a seat belt on. He's driving for a living, which means he's spending
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an awful lot of time on the roadway, no seat belt. Sammy and Sally is meant to start the
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conversation to address new mobility, not just for the children, but for the parents. We know
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from an educational standpoint that when we are speaking to young children, elementary school
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aged children, you're also speaking to the parent at the same time. The conversations in the book,
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it's really just the story of a family and lovable Sammy and Sally who move around town,
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whether they're on a bicycle or they interact with scooters or one-wheelers, trucks,
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that how do you move around the road? How do we tell a story so that it feels comfortable,
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it feels natural? The kids wear helmets. I'm going to circle back to Vision Zero again.
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If I have to wear a helmet in my suburban town when I ride around my neighborhood,
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why can I go to a city on vacation and rent a scooter or a bicycle and not be required to
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wear a helmet? We have laws and rules that make absolutely no sense. Protection and safety should
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be concepts that are taught at a very young age that carry through as we are adults and then as
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we begin to raise our own families. Seat belts, helmets, eye contact, understanding that there
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are other people in our ecosystem, but also to introduce new mobility. In the book, Sammy and
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Sally also have the opportunity to see a robot delivery, what I call in the wild. They get to
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see a robot delivery, a Kiwi bot in their neighborhood and their mother explains to them what that
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robot delivery does. It's aiding people who otherwise wouldn't have that transportation option.
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So that's how the series came about. As my girlfriend says, I gave birth to the idea.
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I started sketching it out when I wrote it first and sent it to the illustrator. She said,
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this is not a book. This is a series of books. We cut down the first one to essentially two
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short stories. Lisa Bailey, who's also an educator and a mom and heavily involved in the
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autonomous vehicle industry, sort of helped me bring it to light, but I want to just especially
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give thanks to my illustrator, Princess Caragul. The reason that this book is self-published,
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because there were publishers who thought it was a great idea, said that they wanted to
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provide the illustrator for me. I wanted a specific illustrator because the figures in the
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book is a family of black people. I wanted them to look just like the black people that I know in
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my community and just like the children that my kids knew. So the illustrations, frankly,
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are gorgeous. They really make you want to turn the page and see this family and see how they
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travel and move throughout town. I'll be ordering my copy too, so really excited to see that. We'll
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be certainly promoting that after we publish the podcast. Everyone can get a link to that, but
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really excited. It sounds like you've really filled a real niche in terms of mobility education that
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has not been brought to Barriott. So I think that you're on to a really prescient idea here. So
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congratulations on that. I'm really happy to see that kind of series and future books that you're
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going to be telling stories of as well too. So that'll be really great to see. Good. So I think
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we'll kind of wind things down here, but I'm going to open it up for just a little bit of thoughts
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now. Maybe if you could just spend just a few minutes giving us your crystal ball. So we do
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this on the CitySource podcast. So tell us maybe what you think is going to be on the horizon in
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the next 24 months, given what's been happening with Silicon Valley Bank. Everyone knows about that.
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We all know about what's happening with inflation. We know about all these macroeconomic issues, but
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back to mobility. Many of us, you and me and many others, aren't leaving mobility anytime soon. We're
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in this industry. We're in the thick of it. So it's not like we're checking out and going to the
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next venture. So for those of us in new mobility, especially in like autonomy and other modalities,
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where do you think we're going to be at in the next 24 months in terms of innovation and just
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general trends? Okay, so that leads me to my tagline, which is transportation is mobility,
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and mobility is freedom. Either we have to go to goods and services or goods and services have to
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come to us. That's how we live. And the work that we do for those of us in the transportation industry
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is around the movement of people, goods, and information. So if I'm looking at
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what we call the near term future, I think there'll be a realization
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as we lose more and more people in the workspace where labor shortages continue.
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Even those who may not have wanted to adopt autonomy are really going to have to start saying,
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wow, this is a necessity for us to survive as a people. The average age of a truck driver
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in the United States is older than 57. But we don't wait for stuff to get delivered in a week or 10
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days anymore. One or two days is about all we can handle. And if we get lucky, we get it in a few
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hours. Instant gratification. Yes. Someone has to move those goods. We're working from home more,
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but only for certain types of careers. We may not travel out of our houses in the same
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fashion that we did before, but boy, someone is bringing you your lunch now or someone is bringing
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you your groceries. If you go to the store, the things that even retailers used to carry
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in a clothing store, they don't have on the shelves anymore. You have to order it online
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and have it come to your house, try on it, figure it out, and then take it back to the store. So
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when I look at the future of transportation, I think we'll be moving more and more goods
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by autonomy, even in the short term. I think we'll embrace autonomous vehicles in spaces that we may
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not have, the general public may not think about. So where it's dangerous, maybe in mining,
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we see people using autonomy and mining now. Those percentages of that industry will increase
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greatly. In farming, we're using autonomy. We will see those percentages increase greatly. At
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ports, where there's a significant labor shortage, we will see increases in the use of autonomy. And
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when we get accustomed to and perfect it in those separate spaces, it will help to seed greater
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confidence in using autonomous vehicles in the movement of people. But we have to figure out
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some of these other things as well. We talk about autonomous vehicles. Well, autonomous vehicles
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have to be electric in most places. So if we don't get electrification right, we can't get
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autonomous vehicles. It's all connected. Yeah, of course. It's all connected. A third of our EV
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charging stations don't work. We have to create confidence in a system where people are even
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willing to consider purchasing an electric vehicle, which means we have to do better for the
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infrastructure. Well, if you're doing better for the infrastructure, who's going to be able to afford
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a new EV? I have said it a number of times that Frozen Berry Porsche, Tycon, is my favorite EV.
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It's a pretty car. It rides wonderfully. But at $118,000, it is nowhere near being under my
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Christmas tree. The average American is paying $700 a month for a car note. And now people who,
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in some respects, maybe you're making $15, $20 an hour, how do you afford a home? How do you afford
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a new car? How do you afford an EV charger? Is an EV charger possible in your apartment?
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I know. I have to actually segue really quickly. We're running out of time. We have about another
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minute left. So where can everyone find you? And then we'll have to sign off here.
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Sure. SBJESQ is me on Twitter, on Instagram, probably any social media that I have that's
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usually SBJESQ. But I am regularly on LinkedIn and we'll communicate with anybody who reaches
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out to me there. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Celica. It's been a real treat, real pleasure.
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We'll have this podcast up probably today or tomorrow and we'll be promoting your book,
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as well as all of your links, your work, your thought leadership. I know you're on panels
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frequently. I think you just spoke recently at Caltech. I saw your panel on autonomy there,
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right, in my hometown of Pasadena. So that was really exciting. So I'm going to go ahead and
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thank you so much, Celica. It's been a real pleasure and hopefully we can have a part two
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at some point in the future. Looking forward to it. Thanks for having me, Stad. Take care.
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All right. Welcome, everyone. My name is Scott Shepherd, and I'm the host and founder of the
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City's First podcast. We're really excited today to have Salika Josiah Talbot, who is
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an industry leader in autonomy, electrification, as well as all things related to future mobility.
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And it's a real pleasure to have you here today. Thanks for joining us.
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Thank you for having me. Good morning, Scott.
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Yeah, this is a real pleasure. And I know we're kind of multiple times on here. So I'm here in
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Lisbon, Portugal, and you're in my hometown of Los Angeles, but we're able to make it work. So
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that's kind of the beauty of our podcast and the reach of our audience. So we're really starting
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to kind of bridge the gap in terms of, let's say, mobility innovation in the US, North America,
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and here in Europe as well, too. So our audience is growing, and you're kind of part of the community
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that we're building. So, you know, we're really happy to have you. So we'll get started. And as
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the audience and the viewers kind of know our theme and our format, we'll just kick things off.
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I'll kind of go over your bio. We'll pose a few questions for you that we'll have basically as a
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nice conversation, kind of go through some of the exploration and do a deep dive into your insights.
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Then we'll just kind of shine a spotlight into the look ahead for the next 24 months,
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basically what you see in terms of crystal ball for mobility tech and autonomy. And then we'll
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just kind of wrap things up where audience and viewers can find you on social media and whatnot.
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So with that, we'll get started here. So let me kind of just go through the bio and then we'll kick
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things off. So first in many spaces, Celica Josiah Talbot is known by her colleagues as an
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influential agent for positive change who leads with confidence and approaches the most difficult
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and complex challenges with perseverance and commitment to success. As the founder and CEO
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of autonomous vehicle consulting, Celica is a leading industry voice for responsible investment,
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engagement and preparation for new mobility, including robot delivery, autonomous and electric
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vehicles and self driven freight. Celica served as the deputy administrator of the New Jersey
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Motor Vehicle Commission as gubernatorial appointee. Most recently, Celica served at the U.S. Department
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of Transportation, Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration as the senior advisor to the
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administrator. So very impressive credentials and real strong background at the federal level and
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at the state level as well too. So we're really, really excited to kind of do this deep dive.
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And with that, we'll just kind of kick things off and get started with our format and our questions.
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So the first question that I'll kind of post you, it's really a burning topic that's really
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top of mind for urban planners, policymakers, as well as others in the mobility tech spaces around
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vision zero. So very broad question, but just we'll kind of take multiple paths to this is
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what's basically the path forward for vision zero in the U.S. From what we've seen over the last
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few years of implementations by states and cities and many different outcomes related to pedestrian
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safety, cycle safety, as well as a lot of the conflict and pain points that we've seen
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during the COVID pandemic as well too. So what's your take on that?
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You know, it might seem like an easy question that you're asking up front vision zero. We've all
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been marching towards the idea or the notion that we're going to remove all crashes. We're
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going to prevent deaths and injuries on our roadways. And the premise behind it is a good
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premise. It is well meaning, but I think it's lost its zizzle, its dazzle, the spark to vision zero.
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The general public doesn't really understand what it means. People don't know about the
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amount of people who are dying on our roadways every day. You have people probably more afraid
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to fly than they are to drive, yet driving, we know statistically is much more dangerous.
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I think we have to change our language. I think we have to go back to basics and start to teach
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education. In more states than not, children don't get a driver's license education if they want it.
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We don't teach basic mobility education, and yet we're putting more and more transportation options
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into our ecosystem. So now we have scooters and e-bikes and robot delivery and all these other
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things that we've added to an environment that was already dangerous and said good luck. The other
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part of that is if vision zero says we are going to attack it through enforcement of
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laws on our roadways, well, we can see that that also is not working very well.
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I like to do this litmus test when I go to a new place. I just came out from vacation and I ask
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people, do you know if it's legal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalks in the town that you live in?
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Most people don't know the answer to that question, or they presume it's a state responsibility,
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and I don't know. The state is not drawing the line here. It's essentially town by town and city
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by city. So if you come from a place that says you can ride it on the sidewalk and you go to a
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place that doesn't allow you to ride it on the sidewalk, where was that notification? We know
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it's from 25 to 35 or 50 miles an hour. We have a sign and it tells us, but the other things that
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we do regularly that we are encouraging people to do because we say this will reduce congestion or
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reduce traffic accidents, reduce deaths and injury. We are not educating the public. I selfishly,
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because this is my life's work now, if I'm marching to this drum, then we need to require
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basic mobility education in schools, and I think that that will do far more than platitudes and
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campaigns like Vision Zero. So it starts an early age, it starts in the educational system,
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and it has to work its way through all aspects of society for it to resonate, because like you
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said, the platitudes and the high-level policy goals, certainly that are set forth at the federal
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level and even at the state level fail to deliver the results related to performance measures that
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the expectations are set forth, which is why we kind of, I don't want to say we set ourselves up
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for failure in the US, but then we start comparing to other countries and other areas where we say,
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hey, well, look at how they're doing, like in Oslo, Norway, right? Like, well, zero pedestrian
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fatalities. Why can't we be like Oslo? I hear that all the time, right? Well, there's obviously
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different historical and cultural and geographic factors. There's a lot of other context to it,
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but if we are setting ourselves up for failure, then I completely agree that we need to get back
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to basics and also focus on really educating the entire society in terms of how, what is the
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importance as well as so that we can navigate this patchwork of laws and regulations at the
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local municipal level, because that's really where the rubber hits the road to pardon the pun here.
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Because, you know, you move, you know, for, let's take the LA example, you go from Culver City to
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LA or you go to Santa Monica, or then you're going to Inglewood or Beverly Hills. It's like, well,
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each city in Los Angeles County is going to have its own laws. What do you do, right? I mean,
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not every Angelino in Los Angeles County, a county of over 12 million people is going to know each
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of the 100 plus municipal laws in, you know, America's largest county, right? So that's just a
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perfect case in point right there. I'm going to give you another, I think it's important for me
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to share this example. I've begun to talk about it because I think it really, you know, really drills
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home this point. I'm an East Coaster. You can still hear my New York accent. I can hear Lula
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accent. Yeah. And I'm a West Coaster. I'm an Angelino. So here we come together. I lived in New
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York for a long time, born and raised, lived in New Jersey for over 20 years, lived in Washington,
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D.C. for over six years. And from the time that I had my driver's license as a teenager,
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all throughout those jurisdictions, I never had to take a road test or a written test.
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Move from one state to the next and sort of grandfathered in, sign on the dotted line,
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here is your driver's license. And then, as you know, a little over a year and a half ago,
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I moved to Los Angeles. And California says you have to take a driver's license test.
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Oh yeah. That's sounding good. You don't have to be on the road, but you certainly have to take
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a written test. Oh yeah, you do. And I guess maybe it's near and dear to my heart because,
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you know, I ran operations for the state of New Jersey's Motor Vehicle Commission, but
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I studied because I don't like to fail. So I wanted to ensure that I was going to pass it on the first
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try. And I know this, but again, it's something that I think the general public doesn't understand
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enough. Taking the written test and one of the questions was about lane splitting.
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So in California, it is perfectly legal for a motorcycle to drive between the lanes.
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It's not an exception to the rule. It's expected. And when you're on the highway,
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that's also another reason that we should stress looking to your left and looking to your right
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and making sure that you're viewing your blind spots because a motorcycle could be driving
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between the lanes. It's important to use your indicators and all of that. Well, on the east
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coast, it is not legal. In fact, in New York, if you are lane splitting, you are likely to get
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an appendage thrown up at you on the highway and maybe some exclamation X's, pound signs thrown at
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you for your conduct. But what happens when a New Yorker on vacation in California is driving
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and someone is lane splitting next to them? What's their reaction here? Well, they don't even know
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that it's illegal in this state or for the California. That goes to New York. That's even
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more probably. They try to lane split. And tries to lane split. Oh my. I love the country that I
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was born and raised in. But boy, are we making it difficult for people to move. And we set them up for
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really bad outcomes. So the New Yorker in California might get themselves into trouble if they're
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unhappy that someone's lane splitting. And the motorcyclists who's driving from California and in New
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York might find themselves with a ticket or more based on their conduct because we don't know. We
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don't teach those things. We don't share that information. And because it is so variable from
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state to state, it means we're setting up for crashes and injuries and even deaths in those
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circumstances. Yeah. And I can layer that in on this side of the pond in Europe. That's not,
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unless you kind of isolate a few countries such as Germany. I know you spent some time in Germany
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recently. Any country that's more of a federal or public tends to devolve state power down to the
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more the state and the local level. So you know, you have local decisions within the German states,
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which is kind of analogous to the US states in a way. But the rest of Europe is much more
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centralist, whether it's Spain, Portugal, France, et cetera. So power is basically vested as you
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know, you know, in the central government. So and that applies to mobility. So mobility laws,
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rules, legislation, at least here in Portugal, Spain, Italy is a bit more consistent. I'm not
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saying it's perfect or better than the US, but it's an interesting kind of comparison because
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you can see this translate for us who are working in the mobility space on both sides of
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the Atlantic, how we kind of deal with these challenges and differences across modalities,
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whether it's e-scooters, because I'm in the e-scooter space or for you and AVs, et cetera.
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And it just, it's fascinating. There's no, you know, silver bullet, but it's something we need to
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be cognizant of for certain. I think that's, I think that's the point I'm trying to make is
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states have operational authority. The federal government has the federal motor vehicle safety
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standards. I'm not even suggesting that states don't continue their operational authority. If
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they didn't have that, I probably wouldn't have had a job either. That was your former job.
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What I am saying though is we need to explain to people that the rules are different,
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different depending on what city you're in or what state you're in. And that those have implications
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for how you move on your roadway and you're correct. You know, Germany might be allowing
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sort of more local, more locally based decisions, but boy is it harder to get a driver's license
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there than it is in the United States. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's tough. Yeah. I used to work for a
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German company myself too in Berlin and yes, I've heard about the interesting, yes, yes,
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the interesting processes. I don't want to use red tape at processes. All right. I think we'll
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probably move on to our next question here. So basically, I want to talk about public and private
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stakeholders and pilot projects. So the question for you is how can public and private stakeholders
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move past pilot project fatigue towards long term mobility solutions? So this is kind of a
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question that I curated for you only because in my personal view, I believe that we have pilot
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project fatigue in the mobility space during and post smart cities movements, I would say circa
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2016, 2017, up until COVID and even beyond. And how do we operationalize and put these into
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long term public procurements, RFPs and multi-year contracts? Boy, that's a really good question.
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I think one of the reasons it becomes sort of a knee jerk for regulatory agencies to accept these
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pilot programs is because it gets them to a space of trying new mobilities much faster than if they
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went out for a traditional RFP. We've created so much red tape in government spaces that we make it
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virtually impossible for government to be innovative in any way, shape or form, but for a pilot project
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or program. And so once they start, government says, well, why would I stop this? If I determine
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that I'm going to go to an RFP, it might preclude the very actor that I have a relationship with
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now that is offering this program in my city. And the pathway there, you know, even once we award
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someone will protest that award and they spend a year or two either in litigation or in system
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processes, either at the state or federal government, before we can then settle on a source
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who then has a limited time within which to operate. So the solution often comes from the public.
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I say this because part of me is reticent because I am concerned with access issues in transportation,
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who has accessed the kinds of access we allow, what communities are often shut out as we move
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towards better transportation options. But if we're waiting for the government, you're exactly
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right, we will be fatigued, stressed, frustrated over a system that is not designed to be agile.
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I think when we start to look at new funding at the federal level, when we start to look at
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opportunities at the state level, I really say that this is the time for government to maybe
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create carve outs for the transportation industry because we are moving so rapidly.
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That the traditional way that we have done things isn't working anymore. If I want scooters, if I
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want robot delivery, God, if I want great EV charging infrastructure and, you know, in my
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dream of dreams, widespread autonomous vehicle usage, then the processes and systems we have in
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place today won't work. And the public sector is not going to be able to take the lead because
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that lead will then only slow the innovation. We have to turn and start to look at how can private
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industry pull government along in this instance rather than the public space by itself determining
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where, when, and how. We just don't possess the bandwidth for that. Or the bureaucratic
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operations that we have in place really will stymie innovation.
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And it seems like there's such a gap, I agree with what you say, and there's such a gap between
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what is tangible at the pilot project level and governments being very akin to that and more of
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the traditionalist bureaucratic structure around public procurements and RFPs. And there's not
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any, it seems at least in the US or many different instances in the mobility space, there's no gray
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jump from pilot project to the traditional RFP. And I don't see that happening. Obviously, there's
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learnings from other countries. I'll have to use the European example here. I'm sorry, but I'll
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layer this in because I'm on the side of the pond. But like in the Netherlands, you have the triple
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helix model, which, you know, public, private, and academia. And it's a real quick, quick to market,
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quick to innovation procurement. You're very familiar with that, I know. And maybe the audience
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is too. But there's other learnings that maybe cities and governments can really deploy to
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operationalize new mobility solutions that are post pilot project, but not multi year tenders or RFPs
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that are so, you know, Byzantine, that they're crushed under their own bureaucratic weight.
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And you go through this entire kind of litigious process, they're very Byzantine to use that
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term. And, you know, we talk about all these other governments in across the world that are
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very bureaucratic, but back home in the US, I mean, really, I think bureaucracy crushes us in terms of
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just sourcing, you know, services for the government sector and really the mobility space
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and how there's been such rapid innovation from Silicon Valley and other actors over the last four
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or five years really lays bare that, I would say, that burning issue. And there's room for
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improvement. I've written some articles myself on that. I'm sure you've spoken about that a lot
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yourself. And I'd like to see more gray area between the pilot project and, you know, the
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traditional procurements, but I don't see it happening yet. You know, one of the things that
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happened is, and certainly before I worked in government either at the state or federal level,
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you know, you want to snap your fingers and have it done instantly. Why is this taking government
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so long? And then once you're sort of inside or now you're seeing how the sauce is made,
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you have an understanding that you don't want government to move at the blink of an eye. If it
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did, our processes, the way that we interact would literally be lurching back and forth
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from one administration to the next, from one director to the next, from one administrator to
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the next. And you'd have whiplash as a nation. So you certainly don't want government to move like
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that. But there is, as you say, this gray area between snapping your fingers and moving like the
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Titanic. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Where's that gray area? Right. There's a little space in between.
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And, and that space is most especially in transportation where we need to be. If you
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think about, give an example outside of transportation, if you think about how government has addressed
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privacy laws and the internet and our ability to protect our personal and private information,
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the government hasn't sealed the deal on that yet. Or a few patchwork state laws like
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California has a lot of Massachusetts and what is like 40, 45 states have no laws on the books
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right now, I think for that. And we didn't get the internet yesterday. It's been around a while.
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So, you know, we've had a little time. And yet we don't have an agreement. We don't have real true
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federal policy to address these issues. Yeah, American GDPR basically. Where is it? And then
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here comes connected in shared mobility, and then electrification and an autonomous vehicle.
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The government says, well, we can't even agree. What should be driven? Where it should be driven?
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Who should be in the vehicle? How the vehicle moves on our roadways? It is almost disheartening.
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If you think about what we've been able to do in terms of protection for privacy and communications
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over the internet, and then when you say, well, where does that leave us in the connected autonomous
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shared and electric space? When are they going to get to us? People have been calling for action for
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a while. We've been saying this 2,500 vehicle minimum is not enough to really assist in widespread
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usage. I say, I'm going to look at it the converse way. Don't tell me what I can do in autonomous
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vehicle world. Tell me what I can't do. Just say, we're going to rule out, and I know the AV folks
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out there won't be happy with me when I say this, but I say it and I mean it. The federal government
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should say we're not going to move hazardous materials on autonomous vehicles, not at this
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junction. We're not ready to move hazardous materials in that fashion. We want a person aboard.
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Just say that. Just find a carve out that A, people who are pushing back against autonomous
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vehicles say, oh, well, that makes sense. If they're going to say that, maybe I could start to look at
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the rest of this in a positive manner, or say we're not going to move livestock on an autonomous
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vehicle, generally going on a 150 mile radius. When the chickens are all over the road, you might
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want someone there immediately. That'd be a good idea. I like that. Just have somebody say that.
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But instead, we're not saying anything, saying that we are not going to impede innovation,
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but we support safety is not a policy. It's a slogan. It's a platitude, like you said.
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It's an empty statement. It gets us nowhere. It really does. I'm not shy because I'm hoping
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that people in the right space is listened and understand how they are frankly damaging innovation.
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They are impeding it. We can't move forward if we don't have any policy or guidance. If we think that
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we as a nation are required to have federal arms around most or if not all transportation,
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why are we refusing to put federal arms around this or to acknowledge that you don't possess
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the requisite knowledge to properly oversee this area of transportation? If that's the case,
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then you form it out to someone who can. Who's the lead stakeholder that can actually
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move that forward? Because again, if it's not at the federal level, even though we've seen much
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support at the federal level for new innovation during this, let's say, peak smart cities hype
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circa 2016, 2017 pre-COVID, when the proverbial rubber hits the road and we're looking for
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policy guidance and actual frameworks and structures moving forward, the ball is being
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dropped though. We do need to figure out who else can lead that charge. Our final question,
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I think we have time for one more quick question here, is about your book. Let's talk about that
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real fast. How did your recent children's book, Sammy and Sally mobility series come about? Maybe
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you can tell us about that really briefly. It's all wrapped up in the things that I do. I practiced
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law for 20 years as a product liability defense lawyer. I represented franchises and spent a
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period of time doing criminal defense and even teaching how to defend a car crash from corporate
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side. I link that with the work that I did at the state and federal level and really circles
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back to the conversation that we started having about vision zero and learning for our children
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on our roadsways. We keep pushing all these wonderful innovations into the ecosystem, into our
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network of mobility and yet we're not teaching people how to move. When I'm on the roadway,
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at least once a week, if not sometimes once a day, I see some scooters zoom past some car
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who didn't see the scooter, I can tell, and is making a turn someplace. I see kids who don't
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stop for stop signs. I see cars with adults don't have their seat belts on. I just came
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back from Jamaica. The trip from Otorio's back to the airport in Montego Bay, our driver was stopped
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because they didn't have a seat belt on. He's driving for a living, which means he's spending
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an awful lot of time on the roadway, no seat belt. Sammy and Sally is meant to start the
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conversation to address new mobility, not just for the children, but for the parents. We know
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from an educational standpoint that when we are speaking to young children, elementary school
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aged children, you're also speaking to the parent at the same time. The conversations in the book,
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it's really just the story of a family and lovable Sammy and Sally who move around town,
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whether they're on a bicycle or they interact with scooters or one-wheelers, trucks,
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that how do you move around the road? How do we tell a story so that it feels comfortable,
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it feels natural? The kids wear helmets. I'm going to circle back to Vision Zero again.
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If I have to wear a helmet in my suburban town when I ride around my neighborhood,
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why can I go to a city on vacation and rent a scooter or a bicycle and not be required to
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wear a helmet? We have laws and rules that make absolutely no sense. Protection and safety should
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be concepts that are taught at a very young age that carry through as we are adults and then as
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we begin to raise our own families. Seat belts, helmets, eye contact, understanding that there
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are other people in our ecosystem, but also to introduce new mobility. In the book, Sammy and
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Sally also have the opportunity to see a robot delivery, what I call in the wild. They get to
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see a robot delivery, a Kiwi bot in their neighborhood and their mother explains to them what that
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robot delivery does. It's aiding people who otherwise wouldn't have that transportation option.
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So that's how the series came about. As my girlfriend says, I gave birth to the idea.
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I started sketching it out when I wrote it first and sent it to the illustrator. She said,
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this is not a book. This is a series of books. We cut down the first one to essentially two
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short stories. Lisa Bailey, who's also an educator and a mom and heavily involved in the
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autonomous vehicle industry, sort of helped me bring it to light, but I want to just especially
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give thanks to my illustrator, Princess Caragul. The reason that this book is self-published,
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because there were publishers who thought it was a great idea, said that they wanted to
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provide the illustrator for me. I wanted a specific illustrator because the figures in the
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book is a family of black people. I wanted them to look just like the black people that I know in
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my community and just like the children that my kids knew. So the illustrations, frankly,
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are gorgeous. They really make you want to turn the page and see this family and see how they
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travel and move throughout town. I'll be ordering my copy too, so really excited to see that. We'll
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be certainly promoting that after we publish the podcast. Everyone can get a link to that, but
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really excited. It sounds like you've really filled a real niche in terms of mobility education that
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has not been brought to Barriott. So I think that you're on to a really prescient idea here. So
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congratulations on that. I'm really happy to see that kind of series and future books that you're
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going to be telling stories of as well too. So that'll be really great to see. Good. So I think
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we'll kind of wind things down here, but I'm going to open it up for just a little bit of thoughts
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now. Maybe if you could just spend just a few minutes giving us your crystal ball. So we do
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this on the CitySource podcast. So tell us maybe what you think is going to be on the horizon in
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the next 24 months, given what's been happening with Silicon Valley Bank. Everyone knows about that.
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We all know about what's happening with inflation. We know about all these macroeconomic issues, but
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back to mobility. Many of us, you and me and many others, aren't leaving mobility anytime soon. We're
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in this industry. We're in the thick of it. So it's not like we're checking out and going to the
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next venture. So for those of us in new mobility, especially in like autonomy and other modalities,
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where do you think we're going to be at in the next 24 months in terms of innovation and just
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general trends? Okay, so that leads me to my tagline, which is transportation is mobility,
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and mobility is freedom. Either we have to go to goods and services or goods and services have to
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come to us. That's how we live. And the work that we do for those of us in the transportation industry
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is around the movement of people, goods, and information. So if I'm looking at
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what we call the near term future, I think there'll be a realization
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as we lose more and more people in the workspace where labor shortages continue.
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Even those who may not have wanted to adopt autonomy are really going to have to start saying,
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wow, this is a necessity for us to survive as a people. The average age of a truck driver
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in the United States is older than 57. But we don't wait for stuff to get delivered in a week or 10
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days anymore. One or two days is about all we can handle. And if we get lucky, we get it in a few
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hours. Instant gratification. Yes. Someone has to move those goods. We're working from home more,
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but only for certain types of careers. We may not travel out of our houses in the same
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fashion that we did before, but boy, someone is bringing you your lunch now or someone is bringing
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you your groceries. If you go to the store, the things that even retailers used to carry
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in a clothing store, they don't have on the shelves anymore. You have to order it online
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and have it come to your house, try on it, figure it out, and then take it back to the store. So
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when I look at the future of transportation, I think we'll be moving more and more goods
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by autonomy, even in the short term. I think we'll embrace autonomous vehicles in spaces that we may
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not have, the general public may not think about. So where it's dangerous, maybe in mining,
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we see people using autonomy and mining now. Those percentages of that industry will increase
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greatly. In farming, we're using autonomy. We will see those percentages increase greatly. At
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ports, where there's a significant labor shortage, we will see increases in the use of autonomy. And
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when we get accustomed to and perfect it in those separate spaces, it will help to seed greater
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confidence in using autonomous vehicles in the movement of people. But we have to figure out
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some of these other things as well. We talk about autonomous vehicles. Well, autonomous vehicles
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have to be electric in most places. So if we don't get electrification right, we can't get
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autonomous vehicles. It's all connected. Yeah, of course. It's all connected. A third of our EV
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charging stations don't work. We have to create confidence in a system where people are even
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willing to consider purchasing an electric vehicle, which means we have to do better for the
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infrastructure. Well, if you're doing better for the infrastructure, who's going to be able to afford
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a new EV? I have said it a number of times that Frozen Berry Porsche, Tycon, is my favorite EV.
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It's a pretty car. It rides wonderfully. But at $118,000, it is nowhere near being under my
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Christmas tree. The average American is paying $700 a month for a car note. And now people who,
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in some respects, maybe you're making $15, $20 an hour, how do you afford a home? How do you afford
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a new car? How do you afford an EV charger? Is an EV charger possible in your apartment?
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I know. I have to actually segue really quickly. We're running out of time. We have about another
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minute left. So where can everyone find you? And then we'll have to sign off here.
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Sure. SBJESQ is me on Twitter, on Instagram, probably any social media that I have that's
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usually SBJESQ. But I am regularly on LinkedIn and we'll communicate with anybody who reaches
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out to me there. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Celica. It's been a real treat, real pleasure.
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We'll have this podcast up probably today or tomorrow and we'll be promoting your book,
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as well as all of your links, your work, your thought leadership. I know you're on panels
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frequently. I think you just spoke recently at Caltech. I saw your panel on autonomy there,
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right, in my hometown of Pasadena. So that was really exciting. So I'm going to go ahead and
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thank you so much, Celica. It's been a real pleasure and hopefully we can have a part two
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at some point in the future. Looking forward to it. Thanks for having me, Stad. Take care.
