Record-keeping: Michael Hicks' Archive of Cultural Treasures

WEBVTT
00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:06.959
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Center Studio Podcast.
00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:18.960
I'm your host, Glenn Nelson, and today I had the great pleasure of welcoming Mike Hicks, one of the superstar intellectuals of Mormon culture, if you ask me, to our podcast.
00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.760
But we're going to do something really wild and crazy today.
00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:23.359
But first a little bit about Michael.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:31.679
Most people know him as a composer and a musicologist, an extraordinary educator, and inspire generations of students.
00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:33.679
But he has this little secret.
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:40.880
Well, it's maybe not a secret anymore because he's been sharing it over the years on social media, but he's also a collector.
00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:45.359
And so we'd like to talk today about what it is to be a collector.
00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.200
But first of all, hello, Michael.
00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:47.920
How are you today?
00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:50.159
I'm glad it's good to see you again.
00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:55.520
Well, I think this idea of collecting in LDS culture is a little unusual.
00:00:55.759 --> 00:01:03.280
On one side, we're kind of nervous about, you know, putting our treasure in store of things and objects.
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:09.760
On the other hand, as a culture, we are not quite hoarders, but we collect records.
00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:10.159
Yes.
00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:13.439
And you happen to have a few actual records in them behind you, right?
00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:14.079
Don't you?
00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:14.799
I know.
00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:34.000
Well, I wanted to I wanted to stage things this way because I'm going to refer to records a little bit, but uh you can see here, I'll kind of get out of the way, but you you can see uh along shelf, the top shelf here of free on this side of the room.
00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:40.480
So what you're looking at is um you're you're probably visible right now.
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:45.760
You're seeing maybe one eighth of the records in this collection.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:49.599
Now uh it's a kind of an archive, it's a working collection.
00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:55.439
It's it's it's not a collection like I'm collecting these particular things and so on.
00:01:55.519 --> 00:02:00.400
But I wanted to use this a little bit as a backdrop, partly because I'll be focusing on music.
00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:08.639
And uh I'll just state uh I'll stipulate that the things I collect are wildly uh different.
00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:17.120
They're all sort of media, but I collect posters, artwork, books like crazy.
00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:20.719
Lots of things I collect are signed.
00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:26.479
So I'm I'm a sort of an autograph hound from literally when I was 10 years old.
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:30.800
And uh you can see here this tower records sign.
00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:40.400
Uh I sometimes joke with people say, You you thought the tower records closed in 2006, but actually all of the locations have consolidated to this group.
00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:47.439
But uh that's one of the things I wanted to uh bring up today was that tower record sign.
00:02:48.080 --> 00:03:00.000
Because aside from collecting records, um, and of course, uh we like to make some wordplay with records and record keeping in the church and so on.
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:06.479
It's like, yeah, I'm keeping all of them, but uh until I'll die, and then my kids will have to figure out what to do with them.
00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:28.400
But um I I have that tower records sign is one of two examples of children of mine who are co-conspirators with me in collecting, because uh that came from uh from the torrents location of Tower Records.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:37.599
Uh and our daughter and son-in-law lived there at the time, and they saw it was closing up, they were dismantling the store.
00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:52.879
And I said, Hey, could you go and tell those workmen I've been shopping at Tower Records since 1967 at Columbus and Bay in San Francisco, and I really would like some kind of you know, uh something, some relic.
00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:56.800
And uh so they said, uh, we'll come back.
00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:05.759
And and she uh she came back the next day and it was all closed up and no one was working there, but she could see there were still things in the store.
00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:16.560
So she left a note on the door and uh said, you know, conveyed, hey, I really needed something from and she went back the next day.
00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:19.519
They were taking they were hauling stuff out to the dumpster.
00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.759
And so and and uh she said, Hey, I left you the note.
00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:24.560
Did you get this note?
00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:27.519
They said, Oh yeah, we have something really good for your dad.
00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:32.560
And so that tower records sign uh went to her.
00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:42.800
And the biggest problem since has been transporting it because it just doesn't fit anywhere in anything, but it's right here sitting on top of these shelves, as you can see.
00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:53.839
So the follow-up is there was a documentary that came out in 2015 called All Things Must Pass, a documentary about Tower Records.
00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:56.959
I don't know if you've ever seen it, it's a it's a wonderful documentary.
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:05.839
And uh I was watching it streaming online, and I um I have this practice, I like to watch all the credits.
00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:11.600
You know, streaming, they don't always let you do that, they start plopping other things, ads and stuff on top of it.
00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:19.040
And I I'm I'm watching them, and there's all these names, the contributors to it, and I see the name Caleb Hicks, and there's like, what?
00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:23.040
Because that's I know there's not that many Caleb Hickses around.
00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:28.959
So I called my son Caleb up and I said, Hey, I just saw Caleb Hicks in the credits.
00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:30.639
Did you contribute to this movie?
00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:40.720
She said, and he said, uh, oh yeah, I was I wanted to get you something for your birthday that I knew you wouldn't be able to get otherwise.
00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:56.560
And for a certain amount, I'd get a DVD of the show signed by Russ Solomon, the founder of uh right here, the founder of Tower Records, and Colin Hanks, Tom Hanks' son, who directed the movie.
00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.519
And he said, Yeah, it's sitting here in the kitchen.
00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:01.199
I just need to bring it down to you.
00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:12.879
So so um that's my Tower Records, you know, the source of some of the very early incarnations of this collection from a retail perspective.
00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:23.199
The sign came from, again, my co-conspirator daughter, Julia, getting it for me, and my son Caleb getting me that DVD.
00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:25.040
So those are things that are part of the collection.
00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:33.199
So you have a sort of a core collection of things, and then there's these little footnotes or sidebars or whatever to it.
00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:35.040
That's what happened in this case.
00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.120
You had mentioned that you started collecting at age 10, is that right?
00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:41.439
Do you remember what that was about?
00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:42.639
I do.
00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:47.920
So two things were happening.
00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:54.079
So um my my parents divorced when I was 10, so 1966.
00:06:55.439 --> 00:07:02.800
My stepfather, my first stepfather, uh was in a surplus business.
00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:07.920
And so he was buying things on the cheap and selling them for a lot more when he could.
00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:12.240
I'd always been kind of a bargain hunter, but he really got me into that.
00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:21.120
But he gave me, well, and by the way, we went to the the flea market, San Jose, every Sunday afternoon.
00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:33.120
And I loved just browsing, you know, I'd buy books in the the uh the big bookstall there, five cents a piece for these old hardbacks and even old newspapers, so on.
00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:42.079
I just loved that, and just getting into things that were old and that were way before I was born, but also books because I was a pretty literate little kid.
00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:50.399
But that stepfather gave me a book called 1001 Incredible Things You Can Get Free.
00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:52.240
Just a little paperback.
00:07:52.879 --> 00:08:02.879
And so that set me on hunt for things I could get free, frankly, which included a lot writing to celebrities.
00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:22.160
And and that became something that I got pretty good at over time because uh a lot, you know, a lot of times you get things from the studio or pre-printed things and so on, but sometimes, and a lot a lot of times actually, because they're just people, they would write you back or sign a picture for you or something like that.
00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:27.199
So I started collecting autographs quite a bit that way.
00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:38.960
Meanwhile, I'm going with my real father, uh, at my request, to old bookshops in Oakland, California, for example, a little bit San Francisco.
00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:46.799
And I bought, for example, in 66, I'm doing this because I don't have the Bible anymore.
00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.279
It was an 1840 Bible.
00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:49.679
Okay.
00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:51.200
For a dime.
00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:55.679
And I thought this is from 1840, and it was a dime.
00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:59.200
Well, I hauled it around for years, for decades.
00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:09.519
The reason was not because it was old, and I thought, oh, this is a neat item, but in the middle of it, it had all this handwritten genealogy.
00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:17.759
And so eventually, it's like I'm getting rid of this Bible, but I'm taking these pages out, and I got them to a genealogist friend.
00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:22.559
I said, see if you can find this Pen Berthy family and and uh get this to them.
00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:24.240
I'm sure they'd love to have these pages.
00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:26.159
And so that was the end of that.
00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:38.399
But the collecting, when I when I was 10, 1966, that's when it really kicked into gear collecting autographs, collecting things at the flea market.
00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:46.320
And I'll tell you one thing, I uh again, things mutate, and as Frost said, Way leads on to Way, right?
00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:47.759
You know, in the Roadless Taken.
00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:57.919
He says that, and and that's kind of a theme, maybe, of what I'll be continuing to soliloquize about here.
00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:12.960
But um in 67 at that flea market, there were there were lots of uh places, one in particular that sold World War II memorabilia because it wasn't that long since the end of the war.
00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.799
And so there was a lot of stuff, and I bought a Nazi armband.
00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:27.679
It's kind of a lark there, and so maybe three years ago, I I'd been hauling around that Nazi armband and using using it in education sometimes.
00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.200
That's a whole other story as far as symbology goes.
00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:34.240
But uh, I traded that finally.
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:35.759
It's like I don't need this anymore.
00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:39.919
And I traded it for a sign check by Mark Hoffman.
00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:43.759
Yeah, and so I thought this is a good deal for me.
00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:49.840
It was a good deal for him because it fit in with his collection of that, and he had other Mark Hoffman checks.
00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:54.240
So uh so in my kids now, it's like, oh, this is neat.
00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:56.000
You've got a Mark Hoffman check.
00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:57.759
They wouldn't have cared for the other.
00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:06.799
So anyway, that so uh things uh change hands, there's a lot of trading involved and uh so forth.
00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.159
What what give me an idea of size?
00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.440
Some collectors don't even know how many objects they have.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:14.960
Actually, that's quite common.
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:21.519
And especially if you're trading in things, but just give me some idea of what we're talking about.
00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:31.919
Well, with with LPs here, since I'm in this room, I have about 5,500 LPs.
00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:40.320
I have probably 1245, so 7-inch discs.
00:11:40.639 --> 00:12:05.360
Uh I have a lot of 78 uh 10-inch shellac discs, you know, and I'm not sure how many of those I won't even get into CDs because that's a whole other area of things, but that's more for listening than for collecting all those CDs as as material objects are making a resurgence now, as vinyl did and is continuing to do.
00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:19.279
Bookwise, let's just say uh in I'm not sure how many rooms in our house, but the only rooms that don't have books in them are the bathrooms and the kitchen.
00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:33.440
And there's shelves of books everywhere else, including one closet of mine in our bedroom, which has shelves and shelves and shelves and shelves of books, not to mention the other bookshelves in the in the bedroom.
00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:38.399
But uh so I I don't know how many hundreds of those there are.
00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:51.279
I'm still way behind Umberto Echo and Richard Kostellanitz and people who have you know 30,000, but there are thousands here and and hundreds that are signed of of books.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:13:06.799
Because I again that autograph part, that connection with some either a previous owner uh or a um or the author, it just feels important to me when you get into the reasons for collecting.
00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:14.240
It's a there's a sense of li and this is this is Latter-day Saint, you know, of lineage.
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:45.759
It's like I'm connecting myself to a family of people that uh I want to be part of these authors, the you know, or these people who uh who previously owned this book or just just oddities like a school paper from William Barrett, uh who became the author of the Restored Church and other sort of things when I joined the church that were popular histories of Latter-day Saints.
00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:52.639
So I yeah, that's a that's a thing, is to feel connected.
00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:55.440
This idea of why we collect is interesting to me.
00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:58.080
And I I came across a quote uh here.
00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:09.360
Uh here's a quote from Walter Benjamin who said regarding ownership, the most intimate relationship that one can have to objects is ownership.
00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.519
Not that they come alive in him, it is he who lives in them.
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:15.519
Is that interesting?
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:24.159
I mean, I think we do find ourselves in the in the things around us and uh curating the things around us is really what you're talking about.
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:29.279
You also mentioned that you had um posters and other kinds of things.
00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:31.360
What tell me tell me about that?
00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:34.159
Well, I have huge folios.
00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:39.600
I won't bring one up here, but you know, the large oversized art folios with posters in them.
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:41.919
You can see a little bit here.
00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:47.360
You see some things leaning up against the records there.
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:48.080
Yeah.
00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:58.399
Those are those are all posters, original artwork for four four posters in the in the uh psychedelic era, uh, San Francisco.
00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:02.080
That's a specialty of mine because that was my upbringing.
00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:04.320
And uh how many of those?
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:05.039
I'm not sure.
00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:28.799
I've got I have a big folio of artwork of mine, which is a lot of stuff, and I have um uh uh a big folio like that of of artwork by my mother and by my grandmother, who were both artists, uh one a commercial artist, the other a watercolorist of uh note.
00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:52.320
And uh then another one that's just posters, aside from these things that are leaning against the uh I guess the record shelves here, another one that's just posters of all kinds, but ex- I say of all kinds, but they tend to be music related, and particularly in the era of my upbringing and so on.
00:15:52.799 --> 00:16:00.320
I remember reading your book on 60s rock and then and connecting with this collection.
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.679
Is it did one inform the other?
00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:10.720
I mean, I I assume that these are both interests that you've had for a long time, but did your scholarship bleed into collecting and vice versa?
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:17.200
Because one thing that um people who collect become real experts.
00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:19.759
You know, they really become connoisseurs of the thing.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.159
So tell me a little bit about that blend for you.
00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:26.879
Yeah, I'm not I'm not as focused as I should be.
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:31.840
I mean, I'm I the collecticism is is part of my bloodstream.
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:42.080
And so there are those that get way into the details of and the multiple editions of this or that, or the multiple pressings of this or that record, and so on.
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:45.120
I've often been a dealer to those people.
00:16:45.279 --> 00:17:06.160
I've found something that's like, oh, you need this for your collection, because those are sort of completists, you know, that and I tend to be much more I I I I've said a personal motto for many years has been uh everything in life is a question of breadth versus depth.
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.440
And I've had people challenge me say, well, not everything in life.
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:15.440
And I said, No, I think everything in life is a question, and if you think about it in this, at least in the way that I do.
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:21.440
And so I I I go a little bit more on the breadth part because I like the sense of curiosity.
00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:25.119
I like to be educated broadly.
00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:39.680
And now with respect to that book, the book grew out of my well, first of all, you grow when you're an academic, it grows out of your need to publish things to give to keep your job.
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:55.519
But but I thought, you know, there's all this music that I loved as a young person, and I still love, and I want to figure out why I loved it or what are the details, what's what is the scaffolding of my affection for this?
00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:59.279
And so I did collect a lot of records.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:18.640
Um see I'll like this shelf right here has lots of records in it that I got uh to to pursue really arcane things dealing with garage rock and psychedelic rock, really obscure stuff back then.
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:21.359
I have so many questions, and we're not gonna have time for all these.
00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:25.839
But one of the one of the things that I really want to do is like some show and tell.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:35.119
So um I you know, I always like to imagine that I'm in some behind-the-scenes environment, whatever that is.
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.599
I I kind of am fascinated with behind the scenes.
00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:43.359
So tell me and show me, if you can, a few things that you really care about that are in your collection.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:48.559
Well, you were you were talking about education and informing research.
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:54.160
I mean, a lot of things I collect through the years have been related to research projects.
00:18:54.400 --> 00:19:10.000
And I have I have binders like this full of stuff that uh well here's here's one, for example, pop, rock, jazz signed.
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:17.039
So these are this is one of several binders or envelopes or file drawers and so on of things.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:23.279
So this has this is uh Tom Jones here, and uh this is Chuck Berry.
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.599
I got this from him in 1969.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:30.559
I don't know if you can see that there um down here.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.880
Uh Mose Allison assigned to me and so on.
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:46.000
So I love things by musicians that I respect in a sort of vernacular tradition.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:20:02.319
This binder though is the well, it's one of again, several stashes of things from legit composers, but they tend to be a little more obscure, a little more contemporary.
00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:17.839
So um, you know, this is a some contracts with Henry Cowell here, um letters from Nick's Lanimsky, Perez, and so I mean, all kinds of stuff like that.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.680
These are real heroes for me.
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:21.119
Yeah, but keep name-dropping.
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:22.559
We care about name-dropping, Mr.
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:23.119
Hicks.
00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:36.319
Yeah, well, so uh some are more obscure, I say, like the Kintarsky brothers or uh Leo Ornstein, and uh but there are others that are better known, Ravi Shankar.
00:20:37.039 --> 00:21:01.599
Here you can see, and uh but the one from from these that I I wanted to highlight from that is uh when I was working on a uh an article I was I was writing uh in 1988, I started it uh called John Cage's Studies with Schoenberg, because that connection interested me a great deal.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:09.279
And I've taught both composers and and uh and and cage had long referred to his having studied with Schoenberg.
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:10.799
What did that mean?
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:11.519
What do you mean?
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:13.119
Did you have private lessons with him and so on?
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.160
So I went to the Schoenberg Archive, and so etc.
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:23.200
So then when I had a draft of that paper, I sent it to John Cage.
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:30.400
Now, this came from my you know, 1001 incredible things you can get for free.
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:32.880
That sense of just write to you know, write to me.
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:35.119
What's what's the downside, you know?
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:43.759
So I sent it to to Cage, and and so I got from him one of his mailgrams, a letter to me.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:44.799
Oh, for just a second.
00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.640
The can it takes a minute for the camera to kind of all right?
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:59.440
And then um even better, he went through the paper.
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:02.799
And he annotated it.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:15.680
So I've got all his marginalia in my paper with his observations, corrections, sometimes contradictions of himself.
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:20.319
I'm not sure there's anything on that page.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:21.200
Let's see.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.920
In any case, this is one of my favorite things.
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:41.279
My what I consider is a finished draft of what became an article, and it's been actually a pretty respected article on this topic, but annotated by the man himself.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:44.079
So that's that's quite special for me.
00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:50.559
Another scholar said that inevitably a collector collects himself.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:51.920
Yes, absolutely.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.559
And I and I think that's fascinating that you, you know, this can it's more than just a connection.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.799
It's more than just like an admiration.
00:22:58.960 --> 00:22:59.200
Yeah.
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:01.440
And you know, when I first moved to New York.
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:03.599
For me, it's an adoption.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:04.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:05.039
That's right.
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.359
You're part of the team adopted into something.
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:07.759
Yeah.
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:08.799
That's right.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:14.400
When I first moved to New York and I would open up the phone book, all of these famous people were listed in the phone book.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:14.880
No.
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.279
And I wait, wait, wait, Jerome Robbins lives 10 blocks from me.
00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:20.960
I could knock on his door.
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:24.960
And so I I did uh write to a few people.
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:30.480
And uh one of my favorite painters was um Clifford Still, and he had passed away.
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:34.880
But I got the address of his wife, and we corresponded for years.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:35.519
Really?
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:38.160
And um and I don't know.
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:42.640
I it just made me feel like I was somehow part of a team.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:43.680
Like I don't know.
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:45.279
Absolutely.
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:50.799
You know, your collection, I imagine, is a thing, right?
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:54.799
I mean, it the it's its parameters kind of ebb and flow.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:24:00.319
It's not it's not super tight, but it is it it they they they do have a connection.
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:04.319
At what point did you say to yourself, you know, this is a collection?
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:09.759
This is not just a fun bunch of things in a box, you know, or in a couple of rooms or something.
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:12.160
This is the Michael Hicks collection.
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:19.119
Well, I uh I'm going to well, some some would say push back on that a little bit.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.000
I'll I'll just say that I I never talk about my collection.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.559
I might say my collections, I always refer to it as my archive.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:33.039
Okay because it's it's a working, it's it's I'm I'm I'm going, I'm having a relationship with it.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:38.319
Um and an archive means that I'm tending it, I'm I'm curating it.
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:56.000
And also again, going back to this notion of I think of collecting, you know, when I was when I was again that 10-ish years old and so on, I had a stamp collection, I had coin collection, I collected coins for a long time, and that's where you're trying to plug in, you know, this, this, this.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:58.640
Here's the things that are available.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:05.680
Some are rare, some are common, but here's the boundaries of the collection.
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:07.440
And a lot of people operate that way.
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:10.480
And it's like there's that one they call a holy grail, right?
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:11.519
You know, that's right.
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:15.200
But it's like, I'm just not that way.
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:23.599
Uh so so maybe I I'm not a collector in that sense, but I just always refer to it as the Hicks Archive.
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:29.680
You know, this is this is my archive of stuff, but I I it is true that I am a collector.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:40.160
I I would say maybe, maybe from back in the 60s, that that I could consider myself an autograph collector.
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:46.319
And I've I've lost some along the way that I that's another story, that I wish I had now.
00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:53.039
But uh but I was how I mean I was going up to the stage doors and that, you know, the whole bit when I was that young.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:56.480
Tell me about how you collect and where you find these things.
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:04.160
I was going to say that it's not like you live at this giant crossroads of collectability, but I think that that's not actually correct.
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:09.359
Uh, because I know that you've often gone to your local library and found wild things.
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:12.720
So just generally speaking, how do you find things?
00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:16.000
Yeah, well, it's uh it's always catches can.
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.279
It's it's really it's it's a it's a trolling thing, you know.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:22.480
You're just seeing what you can reel in.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:31.359
And that's that's really a lot of the joy of of collecting for me is uh discovery.
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:35.359
Oh my gosh, look at this thing that just that's just out in the wild here.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:40.799
And so often it's like, I want to hear the story of this book.
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:42.960
You know, where did how did this get here?
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:55.519
How did this thing from the um this sign thing, you know, signed to to the cellist of the Chicago Symphony end up in the Orim Public Library?
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:57.279
How did that happen?
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:17.599
You know, and uh so uh I love that, you know, that aspect of it, the the the serendipity and sort of uh there's a little bit of section 121 in that for me, if to make a direct Mormon Kish, you know, without compulsory means, it shall flow unto thee forever.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.440
You you just say, you know what, things are things will come along.
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:44.480
And and I do, by the way, enjoy being the source for other people, people who are researching things or who collect certain things, or someone who's an instrumentalist that uh maybe I've got something signed by a notable figure in their field and say, you should have this.
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:47.759
This this belongs in your collection, not not mine.
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.720
I mean, I got it, but you should have it.
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:55.200
And and I don't I've I've been in, I had used to be a dealer.
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:58.640
I was I was on eBay in uh 97.
00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:11.119
So I was I I was selling hundreds of things on eBay back then, and I got out of it in the early 2000s, you know, the first decade of the 21st century.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:22.640
And really, I just tend to give lots of things away, either promiscuously, like as you may know, I I have a box at BYU still to this day.
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:28.799
It's now it's not outside my office, but outside Steve Ricks's office, that where I just leave stuff all the time.
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:48.079
Duplicates, either things that I uh books that I additioned or DVDs I additioned or something, not collectible things, quote unquote, so much, but that uh it's like, okay, I don't need that that anymore, or duplicates, it's more common, of th that I've picked up of things that I really love.
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:54.480
And I want to get them out there because I am at heart an evangelist for things that that I love.
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:58.319
So yeah, I I f I I think that's fascinating.
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:02.160
I mean, it's not compulsory, but let's talk a little bit about compulsion.
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:16.960
So in the 19th century, you know, you had you had Madame Bovary's author, Flaubert, writing about uh bibliomania, and people often talk about getting the bug of collecting and how that becomes a thing.
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:29.599
I can completely imagine that because once you have a uh a number of things, you realize that there are just outside of that many, many other things that could come into the fold.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:30.319
Yeah.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:32.240
But tell me about that for you.
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:45.759
Well, in you know, collect people ask about books, you know, like you'll walk in our front room and just a wall of shelves and shelves and shelves of books.
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:47.759
And they always say, Have you read all these?
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:54.079
And I have different answers for well, they I have one long shelf, and I say, Well, I wrote these ones, and that takes us into the past, right?
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.119
I've used that one too.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:57.839
Yeah.
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:19.279
But um, but uh, but uh, you know, I the great thing about collecting anything, particularly books, I would say, but uh also records, is that it makes you realize how unbelievably ignorant you are, and realize how much more there is, you know.
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:22.240
So you say, well, here what are you gonna do with all these books?
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:28.799
And it says, Well, these books are here to remind me all the books I've never seen or read or contemplated and never could even imagine.
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:47.759
And it's a little bit that way with recordings, and uh so uh yeah, so it's it is a it is a a quest, it there's a need, it's a hunger, I think that one has to acquire.
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:54.640
I I I had I've had this uh again, sort of my pat answer recently.
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:58.160
People say, what have you gotten re lately?
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.319
You know, what have you acquired lately?
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:08.480
And and I say, and this is true, I say, I I'm I'm I remain inquisitive, I'm just not very acquisitive anymore.
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:16.400
I just, you know, I it's like I I do pick up things now and then uh of interest to me.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:18.799
It's like, oh, this this is a quirky thing.
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:35.119
I just I just got the other day the letter that Disney Corporation sent to Milton Burrell in 1978 to invite him to be part of the ABC program commemorating the 50th anniversary of Mickey Mouse.
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:38.240
And and I got it for a real pretty cheap price.
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.119
And so because I saw that and I thought, I love this.
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:43.039
I love I have some Disney stuff.
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:48.240
A little, there's a little alcove of Disney stuff in my collection, my archive.
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:50.160
And I thought, this is nice.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:32:09.759
So I do like to think I I really pursue things when it comes to acquisition that are they're one off, they're they're they're unique, if I can do get that, you know, or they are uh they're just they're just off a step, you know.
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:11.839
It's like who would have thought of that?
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:12.480
Uh-huh.
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:16.000
And so this thing is like I I it's it's not signed by Milton Burl.
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:21.440
I have a signed Milton Burl thing, but and probably people watching it say, Who's who's Milton Burl?
00:32:21.759 --> 00:32:32.240
But uh but uh to have that invitation from Disney, and by the way, he didn't do the show, but they were asking him, could you say happy birthday Mickey on this show?
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:33.759
And uh that was it.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:50.960
But it's got the you know, it's in the envelope from Disney uh we're in Burbank, you know, the the the big the studio itself, not Disneyland, but um so I I I still do acquire things, but but not but only when they're quirky and fun like that.
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:58.480
Or that there there is a sense that well like that Tom Jones one I showed you, I got that recently.
00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:06.400
And it's like I I love Tom Jones, the singer, and and and that era is always of interest to me.
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:16.480
And if I if something is, you know, I I don't want to say dirt cheap, but you know, that it's really easy easy to to to acquire.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:18.640
Uh I'll do that just for fun.
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:19.200
Yeah.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:19.680
All right.
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:22.559
Is there some other object to show that's showable?
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:24.400
Uh yes, indeed.
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:30.720
I and I had to, you know, to when you said pick a few things, it's like, I know.
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:32.559
I'm sorry.
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:37.839
But this is one again, because I want to go back to this late way leads on to way thing.
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:48.079
And and I love more and more, particularly at my advanced age, the the notion of you never know where that thing is gonna lead to next.
00:33:48.319 --> 00:33:48.640
Yeah.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:58.079
And it's so uh this is uh this is a little complicated, but first of all, I've been a James Taylor fan since uh Sweet Baby James album.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:09.119
Actually, I kind of liked his first album on Apple Records, but Sweet Baby James, I had a sister-in-law, my well, it's my half, my oldest half-brother's first wife.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:14.639
Okay, I was staying with them for a weekend, and she said, you know, I think you would love this album.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:16.320
And I I love that kind of experience.
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:17.519
I've had that many times in my life.
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:19.119
Where some you would love this.
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:20.000
And you know what?
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:21.199
They're usually right.
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:22.719
She said, You would love this.
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:31.760
And so I sat there while she and uh my half-brother were in college going going to classes, you know, at UC Davis.
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:35.360
I'm spinning this record and I'm loving it.
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:52.400
And since then, I've been a total fan of James There because he was, as happens with you know, many singer-songwriters, I mean, my voice was identifying with his and and the sentiments I was construing into every I'll give you one example.
00:34:53.039 --> 00:35:00.480
Yeah, there's a line in uh a song of his uh where he says, Who am I to compete with the Din?
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:06.000
As uh uh just that that line.
00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:07.920
Who am I to compete with the Din?
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:14.239
Well, I had a girl I was pursuing at that time who was dating a guy whose first name was Din.
00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.760
It was Din Leong, was his name is Vietnamese.
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:25.199
And so, so I mean, that you know, there's none that was not in James Taylor's mind, but for me it's like, who am I to compete with the din?
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.000
I mean, so I've had that connection with him.
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:37.280
Okay, so when I was studying composition at University of Illinois, 1981, one of my teachers was Paul Zahn.
00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:47.599
And Paul Zahn's daughter, Andrea, who was uh 12, I think at that time, was a terrific fiddler.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:53.199
And I got to know her just a little bit and hear her in concert.
00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:59.760
She was pals with uh someone that's a couple years older named Allison Krause, both of them from Champaign Hill.
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:11.440
So, so well, anyway, later on, I'm looking at the participants in a uh in a James Taylor concert, and I see Andrea Zahn on there.
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:13.679
She's playing the fiddle and she's singing backup.
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:18.559
And then I start following, I realize Andrea's playing with James Taylor, she's in the band.
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:40.880
So I wrote to her uh a little bit on Facebook, I think just connected with her and say, I got some stuff, some memories of your dad, you know, and she loved hearing that and and hearing about him because uh fantastic uh composer and thinker, musician, and he kind of went into bluegrass himself in his later career.
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:49.039
So in uh nine it's 2016, early 2016.
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:51.280
Stay with me.
00:36:51.760 --> 00:37:03.119
2016, uh, I got a bunch of James Taylor production materials for the albums of his flag and dad loves his work.
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:05.760
Two lots in an auction.
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.039
The two lots together I got for 40 bucks.
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:17.440
And it was all this incredible stuff for produ for making the the objects of his albums and some other things too, tour things.
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:23.280
So I wrote to Andrea and I said, Hey, I've got this stuff from your boss.
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:25.440
I think he might be interested in.
00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:28.480
So she says, Oh, well, we're coming to Salt Lake.
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:30.000
We're playing the e center.
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:33.199
It's became the Maverick Center, I think, right after that.
00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:34.719
But it but that place.
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:38.800
So I'll get you some backstage passes and bring them and show them to the boss.
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:41.679
You know, that's their word for him.
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:44.000
So I did.
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:56.000
And so so after the show, come out and and in the parking lot, where you know, next to the tour bus, we're laying out all these materials on the sidewalk.
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:57.039
And he's looking through them.
00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:59.519
Now he's reflexively just signing them all.
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.239
But I'm showing uh, you know, and it's great.
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:03.199
I mean, I love that.
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:08.719
But but but the funnest thing was, and this is this is what I can show you.
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:14.880
The flag, okay, so you can see these are these are large uh pieces here.
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:29.519
This is a photograph of him uh sort of with a bluesy, you know, sort of scrunched up face and guitar, small guitar in front of a table, open guitar uh case next to him.
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:34.719
This was used on the inside of the gatefold of the flag album.
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:36.880
Yeah, so it was a well-known picture.
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:43.360
But among the production materials was this alternate picture of him.
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:51.920
And I again, these are the the original mock-ups that they were trying to use.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.679
And he said to me, he said, I've never seen this before.
00:38:56.800 --> 00:39:00.239
And and and I and I actually had multiple copies of it.
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:04.159
And I said, Well, let me give you one, of course, for your own archive.
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:11.280
And of course, he signed it here, and I love this beautiful signature right there of this piece.
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:22.000
And of course, we had had some good conversation, and let me mention a Mormon connection there because I told him that I taught at BYU, and he said, So are you Mormon?
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:30.000
Then I said, I am, and and he said, and he talked about a Mormon friend of his, and then he said, I don't know much about the Mormon teaching.
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:38.079
And this is a rough paraphrase, but he said, I don't know much about the Mormon teaching, but their sense of community.
00:39:42.559 --> 00:40:02.800
And I've never had a more beautiful summation of the kind of feeling that we can at our best project because he he he just didn't say, I love that sense of I mean, he just went and and that conveyed so much to me.
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:03.920
So so here it is.
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:12.719
I'm getting to meet the man, hang out with him, converse with him, give him some stuff he didn't have for his own archive, and he's signing stuff for me.
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:28.159
And so I have among again, if I had to pick things that I really treasure, this thing of his unpublished and uh new to him when I showed it to him and signed by him here.
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:32.159
So that's that's really that's really beautiful.
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:33.280
Okay, so I'm not gonna get.
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:50.480
You know, the more people but touch it, right?
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:51.679
Exactly, yeah.
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:58.719
You know, I have a friend who was uh you know he worked at Southeby's, and that's where his his training was, and so he's quite an expert in that.
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:02.079
And now he's an art dealer, uh wonderful guy.
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:11.599
And he said something to me a little while ago that really influenced me because at the time we had a large collection of art and we were not knowing what to do with it.
00:41:11.840 --> 00:41:16.880
We have a small apartment and a lot of art that didn't really fit in it anymore.
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:23.599
And we said to him, like, what is your advice for somebody who has a collection as far as estate planning?
00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:29.760
And he said, every collector thinks their kids want their stuff, but none of them do.
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:40.719
So let me ask you, not that not that your demise is anywhere imminent, but um, what are your plans for your for your archive?
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.079
Yeah, well, we've we've talked about this many times.
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:46.880
And I we as a family?
00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:54.480
Yes, we as a family, um Pam and me mostly because she says, Well, what am I supposed to do with this stuff when you're gone?
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:57.280
And I always say, What makes you think you're gonna outlive me?
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:01.440
But but uh we call that an evasive response.
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:03.039
Yeah, yes.
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:16.559
Uh and our kids are very aware of this, and we've talked about it a lot with them, and and um and I've actually made videos uh among other things, I've made videos where I go through and show stuff and say, now be aware of this.
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:32.880
Here's a thing that that you buy, you know, even through signed books, and say, this one, this book signed by Ann Sexton looks like nothing, and you don't know who she is, but this is actually probably a$500 book here, whereas these other ones not so much.
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:37.679
And saying, you know, you're you're not gonna get retail and retail on these things goes up and down.
00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:49.440
So trying to alert them at least to monetary value, figuring out how to disperse things from a giving point of view, um that that's more complicated.
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:51.119
Who do you want to have access to?
00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:55.360
And by the way, dealers that might, you know, I write down a list.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:57.679
Here's take it to this dealer, that dealer.
00:42:57.840 --> 00:42:59.119
They come and they go.
00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:06.719
You know, I had one written down and and uh and and you know, a month later he was out of business.
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:08.159
There's small business.
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:12.159
You know, you you can't you you can't determine that.
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:20.880
Um there, you know, there is the the uh notion in scripture, freely freely you've received, freely give.
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:27.599
And uh I I just feel like uh so much of this stuff has come to me in a in amazing ways.
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:41.599
And I I hope things don't get destroyed, you know, and I'll comment on that in a minute, but uh I I I just want things to go to the right people.
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:51.760
I have and and and if my kids make some money off it, or or grandkids, and you never know when a grandkid might think, oh, this I love this.
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:54.639
So we have a son who works at Apple.
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:59.599
He's in the digital world, of course, all the time, and he just had a birthday.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:04.639
And what he wanted was a turntable and some records.
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:08.800
I said, Well, I have a couple extra turntables here, and I obviously have lots of records.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:16.400
But he had a small place, didn't have I've got speakers, I've got tuners, and he said, No, I need something more compact.
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:17.119
So he got it.
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:23.119
But but sud and his kids think this is the most amazing thing ever.
00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:31.199
Because they grow up thinking, oh, things just stream in and out, you know, like the radio or whatever, and it's it's not a miracle to them.
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:40.480
But the notion of you take this black piece of plastic out and you put it on here and you put a needle on it, and all this music is coming out, and they're just going, This is amazing.
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:42.000
So nice.
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:48.239
So you never know quite where the interest might go.
00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:50.159
But I I realize this is me.
00:44:50.320 --> 00:45:03.519
This is this is, and I have no desire for seriously, or ambition for them to take up my obsessions or whatever.
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:10.159
But I've tried to in some videos explain here's here's what we're dealing with here.
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:16.079
Don't don't, I mean, don't count this out because this has great interest for one reason or another.
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.719
But ultimately, I don't get to choose.
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:19.199
Yeah.
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:20.000
That's yeah.
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:25.760
Well, you you you know, you do there there is a custodial aspect to collecting.
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:26.559
That's true.
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:33.760
And you know, for something to go into a dumpster, well, that's a different thing than for it to go back to DI or whatever.
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:35.119
You know, that's a different thing.
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:36.639
Yeah, perfectly put.
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:45.280
And and you know, um, I I believe that uh who was it uh recently.
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:53.360
I'd have to think of uh uh uh uh one of our great uh BYU scholars uh passed away a couple years ago.
00:45:53.599 --> 00:46:01.119
And at his funeral, they had books laid out, his library just laid out for people to take.
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:03.920
If you come to his funeral, take a book or two or whatever, you know.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:17.199
And really, yeah, because you we know you're interested in the association because you came to the funeral, and uh these these books we we're not gonna do anything with, and so well, I love that idea.
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:18.480
Yeah, I do too.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:21.039
I thought, okay, how could we make that work?
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:45.360
The records are uh records are different, although there there's so much interest in records as as uh material you know artifacts now and and and actually usable things that as opposed to even 15 years ago, there's a lot more interest in things that I have here on the shelves than there was then.
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:52.559
Then, you know, you could get these for a a song, a lot of these, or you know, people would give them to you.
00:46:52.960 --> 00:47:05.280
I could tell stories about that, but uh it's it's tricky, and I feel bad that I can't be there to guide here's where this ought to go, or think about this for that.
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:13.440
My own scholarly papers, which you know, there's file drawers full of stuff.
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:13.920
Yeah.
00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:23.280
File drawers and file drawers of just on notes on Mormon musical history, for example, and bankers' boxes.
00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:32.000
Two, I'm looking here, two bankers' boxes just of notes about and and and documents regarding Henry Cowell.
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:34.800
So people that I've written about and so on.
00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:42.000
Uh trying to get an institution to take those is actually more complicated than you might think.
00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:43.119
That's right.
00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:52.639
So, but I I totally understand the notion of that the next generation are they interested or not?
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:54.159
Uh probably not.
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:54.800
Yeah.
00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:57.920
And which is they have their thing.
00:47:58.239 --> 00:47:58.960
Yeah, of course.
00:47:59.119 --> 00:47:59.360
Yeah.
00:47:59.519 --> 00:47:59.679
Yeah.
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:17.280
I mean, a few a few years ago, remember when like the digital future seemed super fantastic regarding collecting, and we were all gonna have NFTs and we were gonna buy these digital things that only existed, you know, when they started selling for like a lot, a lot of money.
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:19.280
And I mean, I I'm not an expert.
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:23.440
I have no idea if that entirely collapsed or not, but it's certainly not a topic of conversation.
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:29.840
For me, my things have been more um I want I want them to be useful.
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:37.519
For example, this chair behind me there, that's a Donald Judd chair, which is beautiful and we love it, and it's an art piece and all of that kind of stuff.
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:39.280
And I and I can sit on it, hooray.
00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:42.800
But my what my wife taught, you know, his daughter in school.
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:43.119
Okay.
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:49.920
You know, Rayner Judd was one of her students, and and so that's a connection uh that we have that I think that's really nice.
00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:58.320
And I've never met a collector who didn't have a story of their favorite pieces, but also the one that got away.
00:48:58.480 --> 00:48:58.719
Yeah.
00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:02.719
I suspect that you have a similar kind of stories too.
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:04.239
I I do.
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:21.760
Uh, and there are there are a number of them, but my favorite, because this uh uh okay, I'm again, I'm going back to when I was at this point, I would have been 12 years old.
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:29.360
My father, uh, again, it was a custody visitation thing, all that stuff.
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:37.519
Uh he was trying to placate me, and I was really interested in going to see TV shows being made live.
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.159
And San Francisco, we were in the Bay Area.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:44.480
There was a show called Oh My Word at that time.
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:49.679
It's hosted by a Jim Lang, who later became famous as the host of the dating game.
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:50.159
Okay.
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:52.159
But this was an early thing.
00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:53.519
If he'd been on the radio, I think.
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:56.480
And then so he was doing this just a local show.
00:49:56.639 --> 00:50:04.639
It was a word game, oh my word, you can imagine, you know, it kind of where people had to guess which is the correct definition of a word and that sort of thing.
00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:06.559
And they would have celebrities on.
00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:17.280
So we went to one and Toadie Fields was a, I don't know if you remember her, young, I mean, as a as a as a comic, and Vince Giraldi.
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:20.159
Well, I was into Vince Giraldi.
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:21.280
You know Vince Giraldi.
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:21.440
No.
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:22.320
I don't know.
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:25.679
Okay, well, this so let me just tell you about Vince Giraldi.
00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:32.079
So Vince Giraldi was a local guy, but he had had a big hit in 62.
00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:39.599
He was a jazz guy, but he was kind of uh, as some some did, kind of a little bit more pop jazz, you know.
00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:45.840
And and he did a a track called Cast Your Fate to the Wind in 62.
00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:55.679
So I I I could sort of sing it to you, but it was dum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum.
00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:09.519
So that's him on the piano, and it's with a little trio.
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:16.400
So uh it was a it was a it was a hit, uh, you know, in top 100 kind of hit.
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:31.119
And then he got asked in 64, well, it's a little bit complicated, but 65 to write the music for Charlie Brown Christmas, and everybody knows that music, right?
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:38.400
From dun dun dun dun dun dun dun bum bum the main title track, or they know the da-da-da, you know, the Christmas time is here.
00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:41.360
But that soundtrack, 65.
00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:46.960
Well, it was it was still relatively new, but people didn't know Vince Giraldi per se.
00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:51.280
So but I did 68.
00:51:52.079 --> 00:52:01.440
And so I go to this thing, and I I um as as the the celebrity guests were walking out, I'm getting their signatures.
00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:08.719
And I just had just a little notepad, just sort of chromy paper and so on, that was about this this size.
00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:09.519
Okay.
00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:16.000
And he he just he just scribbled it just like it just looked like that.
00:52:18.079 --> 00:52:23.920
So I'm showing it friends, you know, I'm I'm bragging, I'm just you know, hey, I got Vince Giraldi's.
00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:27.840
So the responses were who's Vince Giraldi?
00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:38.400
Or, yeah, right, because they look at that, and I didn't have the presence of mind to know back then that lots of people signed that way, you know, famous people just signed it like that.
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:44.000
I'm used to it now from you know signing in uh the uh electronic signatures and so on.
00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:44.880
It's a mess.
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:51.840
So after a couple of years, nobody knew Vin Stiraldi.
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:57.199
They people thought, yeah, you couldn't read his name off it, and so I tossed it out.
00:52:57.599 --> 00:52:59.760
Oh I just threw it out.
00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:03.280
And I and and I'm pretty good at discarding things, believe it or not.
00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:04.559
You wouldn't know that.
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:10.559
But so I threw it out with along with some other things, well, including Toddy Fields.
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:22.079
So in 1976, Vince Graldi died between Seth at a at a gig in Menlo Park, California.
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:24.239
He was 47 years old.
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:29.440
Has that has that soundtrack continued to be known?
00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:32.000
That soundtrack to Charlie Brown Christmas?
00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:34.480
By the way, he did Great Pumpkin and so on after that.
00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:43.840
But that this August, this August, that became the highest selling jazz album of all time.
00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:57.119
So and and and a Vince Garaldi autograph is highly sought after, and and collectors, it's it's a rare piece.
00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:02.719
I it's not so much I want to sell it, but it's like I had this thing, he signed it for me in person.
00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:06.960
It was just a scribble, and I tossed it out.
00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:09.039
So that's one that got away.
00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:13.199
It's not like something I lost in an auction or something.
00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:20.079
And I do buy things in auctions for sure, and I'd love to be the only bidder on an auction lot.
00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:25.039
But the the pay the paper that you showed us, that was just a you you just did that to show to kind of give us feedback.
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:32.480
But and it was about this size, just a little three by five piece of paper there.
00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:34.960
We we need to wrap this up.
00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:36.719
I'm afraid this is terrible.
00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:41.679
I hate, I hate wrapping things up, but I want to be uh philosophical a little bit.
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:42.079
Yes.
00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:47.119
One is um collecting has been one of the joys of my life.
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:47.599
Yes.
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:56.800
And I'm, you know, and I have found when I got into it, I made most of my most of my things were with living people.
00:54:57.119 --> 00:54:57.360
Yes.
00:54:57.519 --> 00:54:59.920
Uh that and I had relationships with them.
00:55:00.159 --> 00:55:06.159
And so the object was represent, it was a proxy for them, you know, in my home.
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:11.920
And every time I see the object, I mean I can do the same thing with all the objects that are that are around me.
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:16.800
So that's what one of the joys for me of collecting was that connection.
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:20.079
Another joy, though, was the educational side of it.
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:31.679
I would discover more and more layers of why my instinct to like this thing was justified by lots and lots of things that had lots of connections and resonance in my life.
00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:49.280
So if you were going to give somebody some advice on why collecting, not necessarily your your same uh objects of affection, but just generally speaking, as a category, why they should maybe get interested in it.
00:55:50.320 --> 00:56:02.719
Well, first of all, I love your description of that feeling and that self-education, both, you know, you're you're you are the one pursuing your education and you are pursuing an education about yourself.
00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:15.199
I had uh a friend, Tom Durham, who said, as has been said of others, others, I feel like when I'm reading, he particularly said this about the Henry Cowell book, he said, I feel like when I'm reading this, I'm reading a book about you.
00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:18.880
And uh I said, Yeah, I can't escape that.
00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:21.039
Well, not the prison part.
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:24.159
Not the prison part so far.
00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:26.480
Not wood.
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:33.840
But uh so uh well anyway, that's another that's an older stuff.
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:36.480
I could distract you really easily.
00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:39.599
If I had been in one of your classes, I could have just kept you going.
00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:39.840
Yeah.
00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:40.880
Yeah.
00:56:41.039 --> 00:56:45.199
And and and you and everyone would have learned something useful, probably.
00:56:45.360 --> 00:57:02.480
But anyway, uh, I have uh I have no advice other than don't don't I mean, people have different passions and and people some people don't start interested in retaining things.
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:15.679
There's a great uh Seinfeld scene at one of the early episodes where um George is asking Jerry to go to his ex-girlfriend, this girl he's just broken up with, and get his books from her house.
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:18.320
And Jerry says, Well, why do you need them?
00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:20.000
And he says, They're books.
00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:22.400
And he said, But you've read them, haven't you?
00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:22.960
He says, Yeah.
00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:24.239
I said, then why do you need them?
00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:26.559
And he says, They're books, you know.
00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:33.440
So that that some people just say, you know, it's come through me, it's inside of me, I don't need it anymore.
00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:34.239
Yes.
00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:37.039
I I don't feel that way for whatever reason.
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:38.960
I have to be materially connected.
00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:45.360
I this this these walls of records are an exoskeleton for me.
00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:48.000
And I I it's just the way it is.
00:57:48.079 --> 00:57:55.920
And I don't I don't evangelize for that concept, but I I've seen it.
00:57:58.239 --> 00:58:02.880
I just uh you know it's a commonplace to say collect the things you love.
00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:09.119
Don't collect to invest, you know, like uh this could be worth something maybe monetarily.
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:12.719
But if if there's something you love, collect it.
00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:30.239
I I I went to a guy's house once in uh uh West Valley, just sort of a chance meeting there, and he took me downstairs in his house, and he was a fanatical collector of Beatles things, had unbelievable stuff.
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:31.119
He just loved it.
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:39.119
And Jesus of Nazareth, this the Franco Zefferelli film from 76, he had all kinds of stuff from that.
00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:42.000
He said we watch it every Sunday, and it's like, what?
00:58:42.639 --> 00:58:44.639
So that was his passion.
00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:48.000
And you can't, what can you say about it?
00:58:48.079 --> 00:59:00.960
It's not like, but but if you're passionate about something, and I would say this to music theory students, you know, it the more you love something, the more you want to get as far inside of it as you can.
00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:20.960
And that's why I study music theory, and that's why, you know, if you're a collector and you're you're certainly this way with with artwork, uh and and I particularly love uh, and this is true for for paintings, I I love that this is the one, this is the object in space.
00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:24.639
As the police saying, we are spirits in the material world.
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:30.239
And i if there's a one-off thing, it's like this is the only place this exists.
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:42.079
You can see this way back here, you could see this uh painting of Madeline Rapard leaning against the window.
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:48.079
And it's not her style or idiom right now.
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:51.840
Probably did it as a sort of an assignment in class or something.
00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:53.599
I love the painting.
00:59:55.119 --> 00:59:56.639
And it's the only one.
00:59:57.119 --> 01:00:13.039
Yeah, it's the only one, and so uh I I think that I would say only, you know, if you want to collect objects or have things and not just send them back out in the world, then get things you love and and go further with them.
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:15.519
But I don't know if that's any advice at all.
01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:18.880
Ken, I want to add one other thing in here.
01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:24.960
This is a this is a a book, you can see pretty worn here.
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:29.280
You can see Stravinsky, yeah.
01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:31.199
Stravinsky.
01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:34.639
This is his um autobiography published in 1936.
01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:35.760
It's a first edition.
01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:37.760
This is pretty worn.
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:47.360
So on here, I I was in an oral exam at BYU for a master's student, and she had written a uh scholarly paper.
01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:58.320
That was part of the project she had to do along with her recital, and she's writing about some early Bernstein pieces, and she's talking about how he was clearly influenced by Stravinsky in this particular piece.
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:07.199
And I said to her, uh, so do you do you have any evidence that that Bernstein took interest in Stravinsky at this time?
01:01:07.360 --> 01:01:11.119
She said, Well, I just see it in the music, but I don't have any direct evidence.
01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:12.559
And so I went to my office.
01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:13.920
I said, I'll be back in a minute.
01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:14.719
I went to my office.
01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:21.039
This was on the shelf in my office, and I brought it back and I said, Now you can see this is a well-used book.
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:27.039
And I showed her it was the uh the Stravinsky autobiography.
01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:37.599
And then I said, and you'll notice that this book was owned by Leonard Bernstein in 1938, when he was at Harvard and wrote the pieces you're talking about.
01:01:38.159 --> 01:01:44.719
So uh I think you're you're I think we've got the evidence for you on this.
01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:47.519
Now, again, what a moment.
01:01:47.679 --> 01:01:49.119
I love having the book.
01:01:49.440 --> 01:01:51.199
I did I acquired it through a dealer.
01:01:51.519 --> 01:02:02.880
I mean, just because Bernstein's a very important part of my musical life and upbringing, but I loved that moment and I would have bought it just for that moment to be able to say, look at this here.
01:02:03.199 --> 01:02:04.800
This is this is for you.
01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:06.320
This one's for you.
01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:09.440
That's a great story, Michael.
01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:15.920
Well, I think I think when you talk to collectors in depth, their eyes light up.
01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:22.159
You can tell the passion for whatever it is, but also just, and part of it is the hunt.
01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:25.280
Some people are more excited about that than others.
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:32.079
But but I can tell that you're, I don't know, this all feels good, you know, to hear you talk about this.
01:02:32.239 --> 01:02:35.280
I get excited for you that you're collecting these things.
01:02:35.519 --> 01:02:47.199
One thing that I would add as far as advice is I'm surprised at the things that I liked early in my life still are the things that I like.
01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:55.440
Like people have people have judgment and taste, and even if they don't have exposure sometimes.
01:02:55.679 --> 01:03:01.920
And and I would say to a young person, kind of trust your instincts, but try to be exposed to as much as you can.
01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:09.679
There's a there's an educational component that definitely comes in, but you don't have to know everything in the world before you start getting serious.
01:03:10.159 --> 01:03:19.119
Yeah, and I I I for me with students, uh, it was always about making connections.
01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:30.320
And that's again part of gathering these things that I say are very widely spaced and broad, because then the fun is to see how are these connected?
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:33.440
Oh, this is like this in this way and so on.
01:03:33.519 --> 01:03:38.880
And that gets the the imagination in a ferment, which I that's my favorite thing.
01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:42.000
Well, you are one of my favorite things.
01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:45.039
Thank you so much for being my guest today.
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:50.880
I have I I knew I was gonna love this conversation in part because just talking to you is always just so fun.
01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:57.039
And I come away with my hand spinning about clever things I should have said, but wasn't clever enough to keep up.
01:03:57.280 --> 01:04:02.320
Um, but you know, one of the things that we love to do at the center is just to try to be really broad.
01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:02.800
Yeah.
01:04:02.960 --> 01:04:06.000
Um, you know, this this breadth versus depth thing.
01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:18.000
And I love that you've connected art high and low and commercial and not and um well known and relatively un uh unknown.
01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:20.639
I find all of that to be really fascinating to me.
01:04:21.519 --> 01:04:26.960
I would like to tell people you can learn more about the Center for Latter-day Saint Arts by going to our website, of course.
01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:30.960
www.center for Latter-day Saint Arts.org.
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:33.199
And we have some cool things coming up.
01:04:33.280 --> 01:04:45.039
Actually, I think, especially around the holidays, I'm getting ready for some fun things of gift guides, an advent calendar of LDS literature, and other things that you're gonna definitely want to learn about.
01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:46.159
So thanks, Michael.
01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:47.920
I hope you had a great time.
01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:50.400
It was a it was a joy.
01:04:50.800 --> 01:04:51.280
Thank you.
01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:53.119
All right, bye-bye.