[0:01] Welcome to The Less Stressed Lawyer's Show.
[0:04] Hello and welcome back to The Less Stressed Lawyer's show
[0:09] with Olivia Vizachero Olivia is a former attorney-turned-life
[0:12] in business coach for lawyers.
[0:14] She helps ambitious attorney stop overthinking,
[0:16] set those boundaries and take bold actions
[0:18] so they can be able to practice in the life they actually love.
[0:21] I'm Evan Mack and today we're talking about
[0:23] why lawyers avoid difficult conversations at work
[0:26] and what it could end up costing them in the long run
[0:28] and Miss Olivia, my dear, welcome back.
[0:30] Great to see you, Evan.
[0:32] Olivia, why do so many successful lawyers still struggle
[0:36] to have those uncomfortable conversations at work?
[0:38] A huge issue that causes people to struggle with this
[0:42] is the story they tell themselves about their ability
[0:45] to have difficult conversations.
[0:47] I watch this happen all the time.
[0:49] They continuously repeat this idea that they're not good at it,
[0:53] that they hate conflict, they don't like to have those conversations,
[0:56] and the more you reinforce that narrative with yourself,
[1:00] the more you're going to create all of this unnecessary dread,
[1:03] the conversation's uncomfortable as it is,
[1:05] but you're adding an extra layer of discomfort on top of it
[1:08] when you work yourself up ahead of time
[1:10] about how much you dislike it,
[1:12] about how uncomfortable it is for you
[1:15] and that you really want to resist and avoid it.
[1:17] So that's the first thing that we need to change
[1:19] is just telling yourself a different story.
[1:21] Even just taking the word difficult out of it,
[1:24] I can have conversations.
[1:27] We don't need to put an extra layer of judgment on it,
[1:30] so that's one.
[1:31] And then the other reason people struggle
[1:33] is because they haven't built the skill
[1:35] of being able to embrace discomfort.
[1:38] So they're what I call comfort entitled.
[1:41] They like feeling all comfy cozy,
[1:43] and don't get me wrong who doesn't,
[1:45] but a lot of the things that we need to do
[1:47] in order to create the results we want to create require us
[1:50] to do what I call gag and go through that discomfort.
[1:52] So you want to figure out what negative emotions
[1:55] specifically come up for you
[1:57] when you're having a difficult conversation
[1:59] and then identify those feelings
[2:02] and work on expanding your capacity
[2:05] to just like sit numb and not squirm your way out
[2:08] or avoid the conversation altogether
[2:10] in order to avoid the emotion.
[2:12] So what kind of conversations do lawyers
[2:14] tend to put off the most though?
[2:16] Even when they know those conversations need to happen?
[2:19] Oh, there's so many of them with staff,
[2:21] negative feedback,
[2:23] addressing issues that will end up manifesting
[2:26] like a lot of resentment, a lot of frustration,
[2:28] but you won't actually have the conversation
[2:30] that needs to be had that someone's missing the mark
[2:33] or they're not meeting expectations.
[2:34] You might not even be clear on what the expectation is
[2:37] that they're not meeting.
[2:38] You're just like, I don't know.
[2:40] This isn't what I wanted.
[2:41] I don't know exactly what I wanted,
[2:42] but it's not this.
[2:43] So they'll avoid those conversations
[2:45] because they don't want to hurt someone's feelings
[2:47] even though they'll continue to hurt someone's feelings
[2:50] with how they act in a passive aggressive
[2:52] manner.
[2:53] So that's a big one.
[2:54] Telling clients bad news.
[2:56] They feel guilty or they feel maybe frustrated with themselves
[3:01] or worried that the client's going to get upset
[3:03] and fire them.
[3:04] So they'll avoid those conversations.
[3:05] And man, one of the biggest topics of conversation
[3:09] that I watch attorneys avoid is conversations around bills.
[3:13] So let's say you quoted a range
[3:17] for what the legal fees for a matter would be.
[3:20] And it just required more work than you anticipated
[3:23] because we tend to underestimate.
[3:25] And attorneys will know like, ooh, I'm going over the budget
[3:29] and they're not going to be happy about that.
[3:31] And they'll avoid that conversation and they'll just do the work
[3:34] and then they send the bill out.
[3:35] And then clients are very unhappy
[3:37] because they feel blindsided.
[3:39] And I tell people all the time,
[3:41] you think they don't want to hear the bad news.
[3:43] Most people crave certainty.
[3:45] And even if it's bad, they can handle it.
[3:49] But they feel so much safer and so much more secure
[3:52] when they just know on the front end
[3:54] rather than being surprised on the back end.
[3:56] So there's going to be discomfort both ways.
[3:58] I highly recommend having the conversation on the front end.
[4:02] Right.
[4:03] So what are people usually telling themselves though
[4:06] that kind of makes avoiding that conversation feel easier
[4:09] than maybe just addressing it in a more direct manner?
[4:12] I think a couple different things.
[4:14] One they'll tell themselves like, oh, I'll do it later.
[4:16] And then later is always later.
[4:18] They just keep putting on, I'll do it later tonight.
[4:20] I'll call them first thing in the morning.
[4:22] And it's just enough to kick the can down the road a little bit.
[4:25] And then that same excuse keeps working until a week's gone
[4:29] by, two weeks have gone by.
[4:30] And then you've got all this guilt about,
[4:33] oh, I should have told them earlier.
[4:34] Now they're going to be mad that I didn't tell them.
[4:36] And then we avoid the guilt and we just keep prolonging it.
[4:39] So it's like a catch 22 that really creates some messy situations.
[4:44] That's one, they'll tell themselves that
[4:47] they can't do it.
[4:51] We love to tell ourselves that we can't.
[4:54] And when we think we can't, we don't.
[4:56] Right.
[4:57] But you actually can or you'll say that it's hard.
[5:00] Maybe you won't say I can't, but it's going to be so hard.
[5:03] And physically saying the words is not hard.
[5:06] You have the vocabulary.
[5:08] You can get the sentences out of your mouth.
[5:10] You just have to feel uncomfortable.
[5:11] So I always think it's much more helpful to use the accurate description
[5:15] of what experience you'd have to be going into,
[5:19] rather than telling yourself something that's not technically true,
[5:22] which is that you're unable to do it physically.
[5:25] So, so how to put it off that one uncomfortable conversation,
[5:29] start creating bigger problems maybe inside the firm,
[5:32] maybe internally over time.
[5:34] For sure.
[5:35] So just a culture of a lack of transparency, right?
[5:39] That really can become infectious.
[5:42] We put things off.
[5:44] We don't tell the full truth and nothing but the truth.
[5:48] You know, so help you.
[5:50] And you start,
[5:52] there's secrecy.
[5:53] You start to withhold things.
[5:54] You start to hide things.
[5:55] This can really get people in trouble as far as malpractice is concerned.
[6:00] I watch so many attorneys have a lot of anxiety and fear around getting grieved
[6:06] or committing malpractice.
[6:08] And most of them are people who try so hard
[6:11] and they give it everything they've got.
[6:13] And I tell them typically if you talk to an attorney that handles those types of cases,
[6:19] they handle attorney grievance issues or malpractice claims,
[6:23] they will tell you that people get in trouble when you hide stuff,
[6:28] or you intentionally committed a wrong act versus I made a mistake.
[6:34] Now, if you make a mistake and then you try and cover it up and you hide it,
[6:37] that can get you in trouble, obviously.
[6:39] But if you get caught up in that,
[6:41] like one lie,
[6:43] it gets the next lie,
[6:45] and I think it becomes a really slippery slope to withhold things.
[6:48] To answer,
[6:49] to offer another answer to an earlier question you asked me,
[6:52] you said,
[6:53] why do people do it?
[6:54] I think another reason is they tell themselves,
[6:57] this is like the perfectionist in them,
[6:59] that I can make up for it.
[7:01] Like,
[7:02] there's something that I can do,
[7:04] between now and then that can soften the blow,
[7:06] or maybe I can try this avenue,
[7:08] and I might be able to, you know, find a way out or find a better solution,
[7:12] and then if that doesn't come to fruition,
[7:14] now you've waited way longer,
[7:16] and you still don't have any better news to report.
[7:18] So,
[7:20] you're just compounding the problem when the easier thing,
[7:22] and often the better thing for both you and the client,
[7:26] would be just,
[7:28] you know,
[7:29] and the easier thing,
[7:30] and often the better thing for both you and the client,
[7:33] would be to just rip the bandaid off and tell them the bad news.
[7:36] So, Olivia, how does avoiding these conversations, you know,
[7:39] start affecting the way other people around you behave,
[7:42] or perform, you know, in the firm?
[7:44] I think you subtly teach them what is acceptable and what is not.
[7:48] You're slowly and subtly reinforcing that it's,
[7:53] it's bad to communicate bad news.
[7:56] It's bad to communicate something that someone might have a negative emotion about.
[8:00] So, if you're teaching other people that, especially younger attorneys,
[8:04] they're going to learn the same thing.
[8:06] Oh, I don't have that conversation.
[8:08] Oh, it's okay for me to put off calling the client and telling them.
[8:11] Oh, I can downplay that in an email,
[8:14] rather than really explaining the impact of that.
[8:17] And over time,
[8:19] that leads to just poor representation and a poor relationship.
[8:25] People have to remember,
[8:27] when someone's hiring an attorney, no matter what it's for,
[8:30] it's typically for something that they can't handle themselves.
[8:33] They either don't have the license required to do it,
[8:36] or they don't have the skill set required to do it.
[8:39] So, they have to put so much trust in another person,
[8:43] and it's up to you, do you want to enforce that trust
[8:48] and build it up and make it stronger, or do you want to erode it?
[8:52] And I understand the natural human tendency
[8:55] to want to avoid an uncomfortable conversation,
[8:59] but it really is up to you what experience your clients can have with you.
[9:04] And again, you have to go back to reframing.
[9:06] If you think it's better to hold off and avoid the uncomfortable conversation,
[9:10] you will continue to do that.
[9:12] You will always proceed with doing what you think is best.
[9:16] So, if you don't want to operate that way,
[9:18] you have to believe deeply that it is better to be transparent and forthcoming
[9:23] and have those difficult conversations as quickly as possible.
[9:27] But why do lawyers sometimes wait until this problem becomes escalator
[9:32] or becomes urgent before having that conversation,
[9:35] they should have had it at an earlier point.
[9:37] Such a good question.
[9:38] It's all about discomfort avoidance.
[9:40] I like to tell my clients, avoid it people avoid.
[9:43] So, that's all that's happening.
[9:45] We're operating from the same system.
[9:48] It's not like all of a sudden you just get this burst of either integrity
[9:53] or a desire to be transparent and you're feeling really motivated
[9:58] from a positive emotion to do that.
[10:01] Instead, early when you quote unquote should be having the conversation,
[10:06] the most immediate discomfort is the discomfort of having the conversation.
[10:11] All right. And then as time passes,
[10:14] the discomfort of not having it,
[10:16] like whatever the negative consequence would be,
[10:19] starts to outweigh that.
[10:20] So, it's like the dial flips from one side to the other
[10:24] and then the most immediate discomfort or the most extreme discomfort
[10:28] is from continuing to avoid having the conversation.
[10:31] So, people finally have it whether that's communicating bad news
[10:36] or you're at your wits end and you just can't take the underperforming employee anymore.
[10:40] So, you finally decide to gag and go and address whatever's not working.
[10:45] Normally that doesn't go super well.
[10:47] It's more conflict-ridden than if you were to have it at an earlier date.
[10:50] But that's all that happens is that the discomfort of having it gets outweighed
[10:54] by the discomfort of not having it and then you avoid that discomfort by having the combo.
[11:00] So, what what starts to happen personally when someone gets into the habit of avoiding
[11:04] those uncomfortable conversations over and over again,
[11:07] how does that kind of translate into their personal life as well?
[11:10] Man, people do this both at work and in their personal lives.
[11:13] So, if you do it at the office with your clients, with your co-workers,
[11:16] it's definitely going to be manifesting in your personal relationships as well.
[11:20] But you really don't realize how much negative weight you carry around with you
[11:26] when you're avoiding this stuff.
[11:28] We also tend to make it a bigger deal.
[11:32] So, it's not like we're not thinking about it.
[11:34] It's not out of sight, out of mind.
[11:36] You're ruminating over it and vacillating over it in your head.
[11:39] And as you do that, you make the conversations scarier.
[11:42] You start to catastrophize.
[11:44] What if this happens?
[11:45] What if they do this?
[11:46] What if the client fires me?
[11:47] What if I say this in the person quits?
[11:49] I can't handle a staffing shortage right now.
[11:52] What if they say that they won't approve the work?
[11:56] And I think the work's really necessary in order to get the outcome that they want.
[12:01] So, they just start spending all this time thinking about it.
[12:04] While they're also slowly but surely beating themselves up for not having a conversation,
[12:10] I really need to have the conversation.
[12:12] I should have talked to them already.
[12:14] And it's just like guilt, guilt, stress, anxiety, worry.
[12:18] And it just starts to weigh you down carrying that around with you.
[12:22] It's like, you know, the hikers that put rocks in their backpacks or like the weighted vests.
[12:29] You go through every day like that.
[12:31] So, it takes so much more energy just to get through your everyday stuff.
[12:36] And ultimately, this is what leads to people being really exhausted with their work.
[12:40] They're carrying around this unnecessary emotional weight.
[12:43] So, do you have an example of a situation we're having in the conversation early?
[12:48] Would have saved someone a lot of the necessary stress later on?
[12:51] For sure.
[12:52] So, definitely with underperforming employees,
[12:56] my clients will come to me and they're very frustrated.
[12:59] They've probably been dealing with it for a while before they come and work with me.
[13:04] And they will just keep telling themselves like this person should know better.
[13:10] And they might have what I call like a very surface level talking to, which is just go do better.
[13:17] And they're avoiding the more meaty conversation, which is let's figure out what's actually going on.
[13:23] What's causing this problem?
[13:24] How are you approaching your work?
[13:26] What do we need to change?
[13:27] Do you actually have the skills to make those changes?
[13:31] So, after maybe months of struggling and suffering on their own, they come work with me,
[13:36] and we start to figure out how they need to approach these conversations.
[13:40] It's been going on for so long, the underperformance, which has been going on addressed and unresolved,
[13:46] that they're really at their wit's end, and the employee knows that they've been underperforming
[13:52] and not meeting expectations.
[13:54] So now they're in a state of like immense shame, immense inadequacy,
[13:59] and it's really hard for them to take positive, productive, corrective action,
[14:04] when they're weighed down by all of their own negative emotions about how poorly they're doing at their job.
[14:10] And the situation becomes pretty unworkable normally, it doesn't get resolved.
[14:15] Most of the supervisors don't have the patience to go through what might be like a six month year-long process
[14:22] of like rehabilitation and problem-solving to help them get the skill set they need in order to meet expectations,
[14:28] and the person doesn't have the confidence in their ability to improve at this point,
[14:33] so normally that ends in someone leaving the firm,
[14:37] and that I'm starting the process over again with someone new.
[14:40] Wow, so if someone knows they have a conversation that they've been avoiding,
[14:46] how can they push through that discomfort, you know, and finally address it, Mr. Mooney?
[14:51] The first thing is normalizing that negative emotions aren't bad.
[14:56] And man, if you hear that and you're like, what is she talking about?
[15:00] Really take a second and think about where you learned that.
[15:03] I mean, I tell my clients everything that I coach on, I've coached myself on, I've worked on myself,
[15:08] and I learned growing up that you're kind of supposed to just put a smile on,
[15:11] and actually everything's okay, and talking about your negative emotions makes other people uncomfortable,
[15:16] and don't let people know that you're feeling negative emotions,
[15:19] because they'll feel uncomfortable too, so we just have to change the way we think about them.
[15:24] They're not a bad thing, they're a part of the human experience.
[15:28] We get to control them by choosing the thoughts that we think,
[15:31] but sometimes we want to think negative thoughts about a particular set of facts.
[15:35] You might want to feel disappointed that the judge ruled against you,
[15:38] or you might want to feel annoyed that opposing counsel won't agree to this thing.
[15:44] All of that's okay. If we can make it okay for people to feel negative emotions
[15:49] and not feel like we need to save them from experiencing them,
[15:53] then we can feel a little bit more comfortable going in,
[15:57] and allowing them to have an emotional reaction.
[16:01] The other really important thing here is owning what you're responsible for,
[16:06] but releasing what you're not responsible for, so we can't control how another person feels.
[16:11] Their thoughts cause their feelings, our thoughts cause our feelings.
[16:16] It's okay for them to feel a negative emotion,
[16:19] and it's not your responsibility to prevent that,
[16:22] because you literally can't, so you have to be okay with them having whatever feeling.
[16:26] They're going to feel, and have the conversation.
[16:30] Anyways, if you stop taking responsibility for managing another person's emotional experience,
[16:35] it's much easier to just have the conversation you want to have.
[16:39] It's good stuff, Miss Olivia. Thank you so much.
[16:42] My pleasure, Evan.
[16:43] All right. That's it for today's episode of The Less Stressed Lawyer Show.
[16:46] If you're ready to stop overthinking and start making bold moves in your life
[16:50] and your practice, visit OliviaVizachero.com.
[16:53] Thank you for listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review
[16:56] if you found this episode helpful, and we'll see you all next time.
[16:59] Thanks for watching. Be sure to hit that like, and subscribe button,
[17:03] and leave us a review in the comments.
[0:04] Hello and welcome back to The Less Stressed Lawyer's show
[0:09] with Olivia Vizachero Olivia is a former attorney-turned-life
[0:12] in business coach for lawyers.
[0:14] She helps ambitious attorney stop overthinking,
[0:16] set those boundaries and take bold actions
[0:18] so they can be able to practice in the life they actually love.
[0:21] I'm Evan Mack and today we're talking about
[0:23] why lawyers avoid difficult conversations at work
[0:26] and what it could end up costing them in the long run
[0:28] and Miss Olivia, my dear, welcome back.
[0:30] Great to see you, Evan.
[0:32] Olivia, why do so many successful lawyers still struggle
[0:36] to have those uncomfortable conversations at work?
[0:38] A huge issue that causes people to struggle with this
[0:42] is the story they tell themselves about their ability
[0:45] to have difficult conversations.
[0:47] I watch this happen all the time.
[0:49] They continuously repeat this idea that they're not good at it,
[0:53] that they hate conflict, they don't like to have those conversations,
[0:56] and the more you reinforce that narrative with yourself,
[1:00] the more you're going to create all of this unnecessary dread,
[1:03] the conversation's uncomfortable as it is,
[1:05] but you're adding an extra layer of discomfort on top of it
[1:08] when you work yourself up ahead of time
[1:10] about how much you dislike it,
[1:12] about how uncomfortable it is for you
[1:15] and that you really want to resist and avoid it.
[1:17] So that's the first thing that we need to change
[1:19] is just telling yourself a different story.
[1:21] Even just taking the word difficult out of it,
[1:24] I can have conversations.
[1:27] We don't need to put an extra layer of judgment on it,
[1:30] so that's one.
[1:31] And then the other reason people struggle
[1:33] is because they haven't built the skill
[1:35] of being able to embrace discomfort.
[1:38] So they're what I call comfort entitled.
[1:41] They like feeling all comfy cozy,
[1:43] and don't get me wrong who doesn't,
[1:45] but a lot of the things that we need to do
[1:47] in order to create the results we want to create require us
[1:50] to do what I call gag and go through that discomfort.
[1:52] So you want to figure out what negative emotions
[1:55] specifically come up for you
[1:57] when you're having a difficult conversation
[1:59] and then identify those feelings
[2:02] and work on expanding your capacity
[2:05] to just like sit numb and not squirm your way out
[2:08] or avoid the conversation altogether
[2:10] in order to avoid the emotion.
[2:12] So what kind of conversations do lawyers
[2:14] tend to put off the most though?
[2:16] Even when they know those conversations need to happen?
[2:19] Oh, there's so many of them with staff,
[2:21] negative feedback,
[2:23] addressing issues that will end up manifesting
[2:26] like a lot of resentment, a lot of frustration,
[2:28] but you won't actually have the conversation
[2:30] that needs to be had that someone's missing the mark
[2:33] or they're not meeting expectations.
[2:34] You might not even be clear on what the expectation is
[2:37] that they're not meeting.
[2:38] You're just like, I don't know.
[2:40] This isn't what I wanted.
[2:41] I don't know exactly what I wanted,
[2:42] but it's not this.
[2:43] So they'll avoid those conversations
[2:45] because they don't want to hurt someone's feelings
[2:47] even though they'll continue to hurt someone's feelings
[2:50] with how they act in a passive aggressive
[2:52] manner.
[2:53] So that's a big one.
[2:54] Telling clients bad news.
[2:56] They feel guilty or they feel maybe frustrated with themselves
[3:01] or worried that the client's going to get upset
[3:03] and fire them.
[3:04] So they'll avoid those conversations.
[3:05] And man, one of the biggest topics of conversation
[3:09] that I watch attorneys avoid is conversations around bills.
[3:13] So let's say you quoted a range
[3:17] for what the legal fees for a matter would be.
[3:20] And it just required more work than you anticipated
[3:23] because we tend to underestimate.
[3:25] And attorneys will know like, ooh, I'm going over the budget
[3:29] and they're not going to be happy about that.
[3:31] And they'll avoid that conversation and they'll just do the work
[3:34] and then they send the bill out.
[3:35] And then clients are very unhappy
[3:37] because they feel blindsided.
[3:39] And I tell people all the time,
[3:41] you think they don't want to hear the bad news.
[3:43] Most people crave certainty.
[3:45] And even if it's bad, they can handle it.
[3:49] But they feel so much safer and so much more secure
[3:52] when they just know on the front end
[3:54] rather than being surprised on the back end.
[3:56] So there's going to be discomfort both ways.
[3:58] I highly recommend having the conversation on the front end.
[4:02] Right.
[4:03] So what are people usually telling themselves though
[4:06] that kind of makes avoiding that conversation feel easier
[4:09] than maybe just addressing it in a more direct manner?
[4:12] I think a couple different things.
[4:14] One they'll tell themselves like, oh, I'll do it later.
[4:16] And then later is always later.
[4:18] They just keep putting on, I'll do it later tonight.
[4:20] I'll call them first thing in the morning.
[4:22] And it's just enough to kick the can down the road a little bit.
[4:25] And then that same excuse keeps working until a week's gone
[4:29] by, two weeks have gone by.
[4:30] And then you've got all this guilt about,
[4:33] oh, I should have told them earlier.
[4:34] Now they're going to be mad that I didn't tell them.
[4:36] And then we avoid the guilt and we just keep prolonging it.
[4:39] So it's like a catch 22 that really creates some messy situations.
[4:44] That's one, they'll tell themselves that
[4:47] they can't do it.
[4:51] We love to tell ourselves that we can't.
[4:54] And when we think we can't, we don't.
[4:56] Right.
[4:57] But you actually can or you'll say that it's hard.
[5:00] Maybe you won't say I can't, but it's going to be so hard.
[5:03] And physically saying the words is not hard.
[5:06] You have the vocabulary.
[5:08] You can get the sentences out of your mouth.
[5:10] You just have to feel uncomfortable.
[5:11] So I always think it's much more helpful to use the accurate description
[5:15] of what experience you'd have to be going into,
[5:19] rather than telling yourself something that's not technically true,
[5:22] which is that you're unable to do it physically.
[5:25] So, so how to put it off that one uncomfortable conversation,
[5:29] start creating bigger problems maybe inside the firm,
[5:32] maybe internally over time.
[5:34] For sure.
[5:35] So just a culture of a lack of transparency, right?
[5:39] That really can become infectious.
[5:42] We put things off.
[5:44] We don't tell the full truth and nothing but the truth.
[5:48] You know, so help you.
[5:50] And you start,
[5:52] there's secrecy.
[5:53] You start to withhold things.
[5:54] You start to hide things.
[5:55] This can really get people in trouble as far as malpractice is concerned.
[6:00] I watch so many attorneys have a lot of anxiety and fear around getting grieved
[6:06] or committing malpractice.
[6:08] And most of them are people who try so hard
[6:11] and they give it everything they've got.
[6:13] And I tell them typically if you talk to an attorney that handles those types of cases,
[6:19] they handle attorney grievance issues or malpractice claims,
[6:23] they will tell you that people get in trouble when you hide stuff,
[6:28] or you intentionally committed a wrong act versus I made a mistake.
[6:34] Now, if you make a mistake and then you try and cover it up and you hide it,
[6:37] that can get you in trouble, obviously.
[6:39] But if you get caught up in that,
[6:41] like one lie,
[6:43] it gets the next lie,
[6:45] and I think it becomes a really slippery slope to withhold things.
[6:48] To answer,
[6:49] to offer another answer to an earlier question you asked me,
[6:52] you said,
[6:53] why do people do it?
[6:54] I think another reason is they tell themselves,
[6:57] this is like the perfectionist in them,
[6:59] that I can make up for it.
[7:01] Like,
[7:02] there's something that I can do,
[7:04] between now and then that can soften the blow,
[7:06] or maybe I can try this avenue,
[7:08] and I might be able to, you know, find a way out or find a better solution,
[7:12] and then if that doesn't come to fruition,
[7:14] now you've waited way longer,
[7:16] and you still don't have any better news to report.
[7:18] So,
[7:20] you're just compounding the problem when the easier thing,
[7:22] and often the better thing for both you and the client,
[7:26] would be just,
[7:28] you know,
[7:29] and the easier thing,
[7:30] and often the better thing for both you and the client,
[7:33] would be to just rip the bandaid off and tell them the bad news.
[7:36] So, Olivia, how does avoiding these conversations, you know,
[7:39] start affecting the way other people around you behave,
[7:42] or perform, you know, in the firm?
[7:44] I think you subtly teach them what is acceptable and what is not.
[7:48] You're slowly and subtly reinforcing that it's,
[7:53] it's bad to communicate bad news.
[7:56] It's bad to communicate something that someone might have a negative emotion about.
[8:00] So, if you're teaching other people that, especially younger attorneys,
[8:04] they're going to learn the same thing.
[8:06] Oh, I don't have that conversation.
[8:08] Oh, it's okay for me to put off calling the client and telling them.
[8:11] Oh, I can downplay that in an email,
[8:14] rather than really explaining the impact of that.
[8:17] And over time,
[8:19] that leads to just poor representation and a poor relationship.
[8:25] People have to remember,
[8:27] when someone's hiring an attorney, no matter what it's for,
[8:30] it's typically for something that they can't handle themselves.
[8:33] They either don't have the license required to do it,
[8:36] or they don't have the skill set required to do it.
[8:39] So, they have to put so much trust in another person,
[8:43] and it's up to you, do you want to enforce that trust
[8:48] and build it up and make it stronger, or do you want to erode it?
[8:52] And I understand the natural human tendency
[8:55] to want to avoid an uncomfortable conversation,
[8:59] but it really is up to you what experience your clients can have with you.
[9:04] And again, you have to go back to reframing.
[9:06] If you think it's better to hold off and avoid the uncomfortable conversation,
[9:10] you will continue to do that.
[9:12] You will always proceed with doing what you think is best.
[9:16] So, if you don't want to operate that way,
[9:18] you have to believe deeply that it is better to be transparent and forthcoming
[9:23] and have those difficult conversations as quickly as possible.
[9:27] But why do lawyers sometimes wait until this problem becomes escalator
[9:32] or becomes urgent before having that conversation,
[9:35] they should have had it at an earlier point.
[9:37] Such a good question.
[9:38] It's all about discomfort avoidance.
[9:40] I like to tell my clients, avoid it people avoid.
[9:43] So, that's all that's happening.
[9:45] We're operating from the same system.
[9:48] It's not like all of a sudden you just get this burst of either integrity
[9:53] or a desire to be transparent and you're feeling really motivated
[9:58] from a positive emotion to do that.
[10:01] Instead, early when you quote unquote should be having the conversation,
[10:06] the most immediate discomfort is the discomfort of having the conversation.
[10:11] All right. And then as time passes,
[10:14] the discomfort of not having it,
[10:16] like whatever the negative consequence would be,
[10:19] starts to outweigh that.
[10:20] So, it's like the dial flips from one side to the other
[10:24] and then the most immediate discomfort or the most extreme discomfort
[10:28] is from continuing to avoid having the conversation.
[10:31] So, people finally have it whether that's communicating bad news
[10:36] or you're at your wits end and you just can't take the underperforming employee anymore.
[10:40] So, you finally decide to gag and go and address whatever's not working.
[10:45] Normally that doesn't go super well.
[10:47] It's more conflict-ridden than if you were to have it at an earlier date.
[10:50] But that's all that happens is that the discomfort of having it gets outweighed
[10:54] by the discomfort of not having it and then you avoid that discomfort by having the combo.
[11:00] So, what what starts to happen personally when someone gets into the habit of avoiding
[11:04] those uncomfortable conversations over and over again,
[11:07] how does that kind of translate into their personal life as well?
[11:10] Man, people do this both at work and in their personal lives.
[11:13] So, if you do it at the office with your clients, with your co-workers,
[11:16] it's definitely going to be manifesting in your personal relationships as well.
[11:20] But you really don't realize how much negative weight you carry around with you
[11:26] when you're avoiding this stuff.
[11:28] We also tend to make it a bigger deal.
[11:32] So, it's not like we're not thinking about it.
[11:34] It's not out of sight, out of mind.
[11:36] You're ruminating over it and vacillating over it in your head.
[11:39] And as you do that, you make the conversations scarier.
[11:42] You start to catastrophize.
[11:44] What if this happens?
[11:45] What if they do this?
[11:46] What if the client fires me?
[11:47] What if I say this in the person quits?
[11:49] I can't handle a staffing shortage right now.
[11:52] What if they say that they won't approve the work?
[11:56] And I think the work's really necessary in order to get the outcome that they want.
[12:01] So, they just start spending all this time thinking about it.
[12:04] While they're also slowly but surely beating themselves up for not having a conversation,
[12:10] I really need to have the conversation.
[12:12] I should have talked to them already.
[12:14] And it's just like guilt, guilt, stress, anxiety, worry.
[12:18] And it just starts to weigh you down carrying that around with you.
[12:22] It's like, you know, the hikers that put rocks in their backpacks or like the weighted vests.
[12:29] You go through every day like that.
[12:31] So, it takes so much more energy just to get through your everyday stuff.
[12:36] And ultimately, this is what leads to people being really exhausted with their work.
[12:40] They're carrying around this unnecessary emotional weight.
[12:43] So, do you have an example of a situation we're having in the conversation early?
[12:48] Would have saved someone a lot of the necessary stress later on?
[12:51] For sure.
[12:52] So, definitely with underperforming employees,
[12:56] my clients will come to me and they're very frustrated.
[12:59] They've probably been dealing with it for a while before they come and work with me.
[13:04] And they will just keep telling themselves like this person should know better.
[13:10] And they might have what I call like a very surface level talking to, which is just go do better.
[13:17] And they're avoiding the more meaty conversation, which is let's figure out what's actually going on.
[13:23] What's causing this problem?
[13:24] How are you approaching your work?
[13:26] What do we need to change?
[13:27] Do you actually have the skills to make those changes?
[13:31] So, after maybe months of struggling and suffering on their own, they come work with me,
[13:36] and we start to figure out how they need to approach these conversations.
[13:40] It's been going on for so long, the underperformance, which has been going on addressed and unresolved,
[13:46] that they're really at their wit's end, and the employee knows that they've been underperforming
[13:52] and not meeting expectations.
[13:54] So now they're in a state of like immense shame, immense inadequacy,
[13:59] and it's really hard for them to take positive, productive, corrective action,
[14:04] when they're weighed down by all of their own negative emotions about how poorly they're doing at their job.
[14:10] And the situation becomes pretty unworkable normally, it doesn't get resolved.
[14:15] Most of the supervisors don't have the patience to go through what might be like a six month year-long process
[14:22] of like rehabilitation and problem-solving to help them get the skill set they need in order to meet expectations,
[14:28] and the person doesn't have the confidence in their ability to improve at this point,
[14:33] so normally that ends in someone leaving the firm,
[14:37] and that I'm starting the process over again with someone new.
[14:40] Wow, so if someone knows they have a conversation that they've been avoiding,
[14:46] how can they push through that discomfort, you know, and finally address it, Mr. Mooney?
[14:51] The first thing is normalizing that negative emotions aren't bad.
[14:56] And man, if you hear that and you're like, what is she talking about?
[15:00] Really take a second and think about where you learned that.
[15:03] I mean, I tell my clients everything that I coach on, I've coached myself on, I've worked on myself,
[15:08] and I learned growing up that you're kind of supposed to just put a smile on,
[15:11] and actually everything's okay, and talking about your negative emotions makes other people uncomfortable,
[15:16] and don't let people know that you're feeling negative emotions,
[15:19] because they'll feel uncomfortable too, so we just have to change the way we think about them.
[15:24] They're not a bad thing, they're a part of the human experience.
[15:28] We get to control them by choosing the thoughts that we think,
[15:31] but sometimes we want to think negative thoughts about a particular set of facts.
[15:35] You might want to feel disappointed that the judge ruled against you,
[15:38] or you might want to feel annoyed that opposing counsel won't agree to this thing.
[15:44] All of that's okay. If we can make it okay for people to feel negative emotions
[15:49] and not feel like we need to save them from experiencing them,
[15:53] then we can feel a little bit more comfortable going in,
[15:57] and allowing them to have an emotional reaction.
[16:01] The other really important thing here is owning what you're responsible for,
[16:06] but releasing what you're not responsible for, so we can't control how another person feels.
[16:11] Their thoughts cause their feelings, our thoughts cause our feelings.
[16:16] It's okay for them to feel a negative emotion,
[16:19] and it's not your responsibility to prevent that,
[16:22] because you literally can't, so you have to be okay with them having whatever feeling.
[16:26] They're going to feel, and have the conversation.
[16:30] Anyways, if you stop taking responsibility for managing another person's emotional experience,
[16:35] it's much easier to just have the conversation you want to have.
[16:39] It's good stuff, Miss Olivia. Thank you so much.
[16:42] My pleasure, Evan.
[16:43] All right. That's it for today's episode of The Less Stressed Lawyer Show.
[16:46] If you're ready to stop overthinking and start making bold moves in your life
[16:50] and your practice, visit OliviaVizachero.com.
[16:53] Thank you for listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review
[16:56] if you found this episode helpful, and we'll see you all next time.
[16:59] Thanks for watching. Be sure to hit that like, and subscribe button,
[17:03] and leave us a review in the comments.
