Executive Functions for Every K–3 Classroom with Mitch Weathers and Dr. Sarah Oberle

[00:00 - 00:26] Welcome in everyone, you are listening as always to the authority podcast here on the

[00:26 - 00:32] Be podcast network. Thanks for being with us. I am pleased to have a returning guest and a new

[00:32 - 00:37] guest here today. They are co-authors on a new book. My returning guest is Mitch Weathers. Mitch

[00:37 - 00:42] is a teacher and founder of Organized Binder. Together with the Organized Binder team, Mitch works

[00:42 - 00:48] with Kate 12 schools and colleges in the US and internationally to equip students with executive

[00:48 - 00:55] functioning skills. And Dr Sarah Oberley is joining us as well. She is a seasoned educator with extensive

[00:55 - 01:00] experience in primary education. Her doctorate is an educational leadership with a specialization

[01:00 - 01:06] and cognitive science. She brings together deep expertise in both teaching and learning. She is

[01:06 - 01:11] passionate about bridging research and practice and focuses on translating insights from the science

[01:11 - 01:16] of learning into accessible practical strategies that enhance classroom instruction and student

[01:16 - 01:21] success. So I think we're going to bring together a lot of topics here that have been really

[01:21 - 01:28] popular on the show. Our science of learning episodes were among the most popular episodes on

[01:28 - 01:33] executive functioning have been quite well received. So we're going to talk about a lot of that I think

[01:33 - 01:38] here today. Previously, Mitch has joined the show a couple of times, but most relevant to this

[01:38 - 01:43] conversation was our discussion of his book executive functions for every classroom creating safe

[01:43 - 01:49] predictable learning environments. From grades 3 to 12, this book follows up on that and addresses

[01:49 - 01:57] those k to 3 grades. It is executive functions for every k to 3 classroom promoting self-regulation

[01:57 - 02:03] for a strong start. Mitch and Sarah, welcome to the show. Thanks, Sarah. Good to see you again.

[02:03 - 02:08] Thanks for having us. Yeah, Mitch, I just want to start with you because as I referenced there,

[02:08 - 02:13] right, we had the conversation about the prior book that covered 3 to 12. Now this is the k to 3

[02:13 - 02:19] and I know a lot of conversation that you had after the first book was released. A lot of

[02:19 - 02:26] folks were asking about these these earlier elementary grades and how they could get some strategies

[02:26 - 02:32] to work with their students, but look to get some of the background on that. What led from book 1 to

[02:32 - 02:38] book 2, everything that happened in between? Yeah, well thanks again for having me back on the show

[02:38 - 02:44] a third time, right? It's fun. Third time, yeah. Got about that second time, but you kind of alluded

[02:45 - 02:51] to it. The first book came out about two years ago to the day. It came out in March, somewhere in

[02:51 - 02:59] March of 2024. It's been really fun. It's been really well received and that's been fun and

[02:59 - 03:05] exciting to see where that book has traveled, but consistently and probably kind of starting with

[03:05 - 03:11] Sarah before I even wrote the book when we met and she started asking me about organized binder and

[03:11 - 03:17] the first thing was like, well, what about us? Sarah spent most of her career in first grade

[03:17 - 03:23] and what about the primary years and that? That was the consistent feedback from book studies.

[03:24 - 03:29] I mean, just everybody asking and people joining, what was interesting is if we would have a

[03:30 - 03:36] webinar class or a book study and the topic was this book on executive functioning, it was

[03:36 - 03:42] always the primary people to sign up first, but I specifically put those grade bands on book one

[03:42 - 03:48] just because I felt like on my own that's where I could really lean into my expertise both from my

[03:49 - 03:53] middle school high school teaching career and then my time working with schools and districts

[03:53 - 03:58] with organized binder up or elementary mid, you know, like third and up. So,

[03:59 - 04:05] Corwin started asking pretty soon after the first one came out like, hey, are you considering

[04:05 - 04:10] a second book? Because this one's doing really well and I was like, never I never want to write

[04:10 - 04:15] another book that was a horribly painful process that took a really long time and

[04:16 - 04:21] but here we are. I had an epiphany one day after I had met Sarah, there's a whole back story there

[04:21 - 04:26] and we've done some work together, we just stayed connected and the light bulb kind of just went off

[04:26 - 04:31] because I was able to sit in on one of a talk that Sarah was giving at a research event

[04:31 - 04:39] and I just had never heard a clearer explanation particularly for all grade bands actually for all

[04:39 - 04:44] humans, but specifically to like that primary years of working memory and cognitive load and I

[04:44 - 04:49] just thought we got to we have to bring this into the world, it doesn't exist yet, and educators

[04:49 - 04:57] and parents are hungry for it. So, that was the story. So Sarah, the question was what about us?

[04:57 - 05:03] Not only did you want this book, you were willing to step into that painful process of

[05:03 - 05:08] authoring to make this book come to life, what were some of the elements if we're defining

[05:09 - 05:16] executive functions in young children, what were some of the things that you wanted to make sure

[05:16 - 05:22] were covered in those K to three years that are unique to that age right that are so critical

[05:22 - 05:29] for educators in those early elementary years to have a specific resource that is really geared toward

[05:29 - 05:36] those students. This is so relevant for us in the primary years because our students are new

[05:36 - 05:42] at being students, so you know they are still trying to figure out what it means to navigate

[05:42 - 05:49] being at school, and on top of that we're with our students most of the day, we're generalists,

[05:49 - 05:54] so you know, whereas the upper grades tend to be a little more focused on content,

[05:55 - 06:01] we run the gamut of teaching them how to read, how to write, how to add and subtract, but also

[06:01 - 06:06] managing the infrastructure behind that, the learning behaviors that are needed

[06:07 - 06:12] to begin that academic career, and in the classroom 18 years I'm still in the classroom,

[06:12 - 06:18] and what my colleagues and I have found over and over is that it's getting harder and harder

[06:18 - 06:25] to focus on the content because we're battling an attention, disorganization, forgetfulness,

[06:25 - 06:32] you know all of these things that if they don't come together, we really we learning does not

[06:32 - 06:39] even happen because we're not even getting into our students' minds, and so you know our context is

[06:39 - 06:46] so unique that it is very hard for us to read something that's meant for K12 and relate to that

[06:46 - 06:53] or see our students in those scenarios, and so I felt like, you know, number one we need this

[06:53 - 07:02] topic, but number two we need it for us because like I said, our situations are nuanced, our students

[07:02 - 07:08] needs are very specific, so I felt like it was important to make sure that we were speaking to

[07:08 - 07:16] just the primary audience. Are you still in the first grade now? I am. What are you, what are your

[07:16 - 07:24] observations? I mean it's so it's now, 2026, right? Recording this, publishing. I'm going to

[07:26 - 07:33] go out on a limb and say over the past three, four years, five years, you've seen

[07:33 - 07:41] a wide array of I guess student, the student-ness, right? Student readiness, students, as you said,

[07:41 - 07:46] they're learning to be students, learning to go to school, a lot of students had that very much

[07:46 - 07:51] disrupted, you know, the kids that have come through first grade elementary school over the past

[07:51 - 07:58] several years, those who were of the pre-K kindergarten first grade age during the pandemic,

[07:58 - 08:03] may have had disruptions, I know, and then as I've gone to second, third grade, fourth grade,

[08:05 - 08:12] the executive functioning and just how to be a student, challenges is that a lot of educators

[08:12 - 08:23] were dealing with in a new way for the first time of not knowing how to explain things that they

[08:23 - 08:28] typically wouldn't need to explain by the time students made it a few years into their school

[08:28 - 08:36] in career, right? And figuring out how do we get to a state of being able to focus on learning

[08:36 - 08:47] at all with a lot of dysregulation and lack of awareness about even the fact that I am dysregulated,

[08:47 - 08:55] maybe, to an extreme. I'm just curious where it feels like things are now, what are you

[08:56 - 09:02] observing, you know, the trend lines with students now versus the past several years, the

[09:02 - 09:08] outlook moving forward, things that are really important to touch on for those elementary educators,

[09:08 - 09:15] and then hopefully, maybe, hopefully, signs of, you know, hope and promise as we move forward,

[09:15 - 09:20] as we implement some of these strategies and just kind of are really aware of addressing

[09:21 - 09:23] the things that are really important for students right now.

[09:24 - 09:30] In regards to COVID, I mean, fortunately, our students right now were

[09:31 - 09:36] minimally affected if at all by COVID because you got to think some of our kindergartners are

[09:36 - 09:42] five and six, and so they were just being born at that time. Certainly, as it was, as we were

[09:42 - 09:49] living through it, you know, I had first graders come to me that spent a good chunk of kindergarten

[09:49 - 09:55] on Zoom. And can you imagine, you know, a five-year-old trying to navigate Zoom? So,

[09:55 - 10:00] we could have another podcast about all the sort of trickle-down effects of that and what that

[10:00 - 10:05] looked like for our little ones who didn't even know what they didn't know because they hadn't

[10:05 - 10:09] really been in school to then turn around and miss it in all of those kind of side effects. But

[10:10 - 10:16] in terms of executive function, I think, and I would be willing to bet that this would resonate

[10:16 - 10:20] with anybody in your audience who is a primary teacher or in a primary setting.

[10:21 - 10:26] Maybe any educational setting. The hardest thing and what we see that is really persisting

[10:27 - 10:33] is the sort of disconnectedness that we're seeing in our students. In terms of

[10:34 - 10:41] I make an announcement to the class, and 90% of my students will hear that, process it,

[10:41 - 10:47] react, and go do it. So, if we're on the carpet, and I say, okay, we're going to move to our seats,

[10:48 - 10:52] and you know, you have one or two students that are just still sitting on the carpet, like it didn't

[10:52 - 11:00] even register those directions. And it's very jarring to see. And unfortunately, we've gotten used

[11:00 - 11:06] to it, you know, but I want to say that for the first, you know, 10 years of my career that wasn't

[11:07 - 11:15] outlier, like every few years, you might have that. Whereas now, we can be speaking directly to

[11:15 - 11:20] our students. And it's as if we're not there. And that is really challenging. It's really

[11:20 - 11:27] perplexing. And certainly, I don't know that's something that we can learn, learn about executive

[11:27 - 11:34] functions and fix, but we can be a little bit more aware about some of the external factors that

[11:34 - 11:42] may be contributing to some of that inattentiveness. You know, in addition to that, I would say,

[11:42 - 11:47] just, and this is globally because of development and the age that our students are,

[11:48 - 11:54] it's issues with memory, and that can be not because I think their memory capacity is decreasing,

[11:54 - 12:01] but I just think that we have to be so incredibly sensitive to the very finite amount of storage,

[12:01 - 12:06] of working memory storage space that they have that sometimes it, we forget, we take that for

[12:06 - 12:13] granted. And so that can bring up problems as well when we're not really mindful of just what a small

[12:13 - 12:19] capacity we're working with. And we have to really be careful to match our expectations to that.

[12:19 - 12:29] Yeah. Yeah. I think you've let us in a direction of maybe the value of naming, defining some of

[12:32 - 12:38] terms from cognitive science or some of those skills that on their surface can probably

[12:38 - 12:47] feel a little bit theoretical or abstract from the day to day for most teachers, right? But kind of

[12:47 - 12:51] knowing what some of them are, what they're called, being able to then identify

[12:53 - 12:59] students at their development levels, students who are maybe still needing to develop some of those

[12:59 - 13:06] skills or recognizing it first, right? Is step one to being able to determine, okay, you know,

[13:06 - 13:12] this kid needs a little more support with this or my students as a whole are coming in as a cohort,

[13:12 - 13:20] and there are certain skills, awareness, development that I used to take for granted that now it's

[13:20 - 13:28] taking a little bit longer to to come up out. So I do need to be more engaged with that because now I'm

[13:28 - 13:33] responsible for it. Maybe it's at third grade, fourth or fifth grade, which things that used to

[13:33 - 13:39] happen at first or second, right? But now you just be paying more attention to maybe for each of you,

[13:39 - 13:48] are there a couple of those ideas or terminologies from the cognitive science realm that are worth?

[13:48 - 13:54] Teachers just being familiar with and being able to identify, you know, in these K to three years

[13:54 - 14:01] again, where that's because they really do, they are illustrated in the classroom, right?

[14:01 - 14:07] Even if it is not always terminology that that individual teachers are using on a daily basis.

[14:08 - 14:14] I can not, I'll jump in on that. Ross, it's, it's worth very quickly just like unpacking executive

[14:14 - 14:20] functions. And my first book really looked at what was referred to as higher order executive

[14:20 - 14:27] functions and what Sarah and I are focused on in this book is referred to as core executive functions,

[14:27 - 14:34] which are working memory, inhibition, incognitive flexibility, sometimes referred to as shifting.

[14:35 - 14:40] And if, and I'll just throw this out there and then let Sarah like really bring it practical into

[14:40 - 14:45] the primary classroom. And I do just want to say this as a secondary teacher. And as someone who's

[14:45 - 14:52] lucky enough to visit lots of classrooms all the way through college, I'm now after this project

[14:52 - 14:59] with Sarah over the last two years, I'm like completely 100% convinced that have, and Sarah kind of

[14:59 - 15:05] mentioned like educators in every setting, I think every educator and parent and we can talk about

[15:05 - 15:12] that feedback in a little bit would benefit from this book in the same way that as teachers of older

[15:12 - 15:18] kids and older human beings would benefit from spending the day or even an hour in a really gifted

[15:18 - 15:22] primary teachers classroom. Because Sarah kept saying to the writing processes like I'd bring

[15:22 - 15:28] something up and she's like we don't even have to say that like we live in this all the time. And so

[15:29 - 15:35] and you're kind of mentioning it too, just naming it, just describing it, explain this is what it

[15:35 - 15:40] looks like. Here's a misconception about it. Here's where you might be spotting some of what's

[15:40 - 15:45] going on with these core executive functions. But I would say if I had to pick two terms,

[15:45 - 15:50] I think every primary teacher would really benefit from like if you could put on a pair of glasses

[15:50 - 15:58] and view your classroom space, your kids would be working memory capacity and cognitive load.

[15:59 - 16:05] And how you can, to Sarah's mentioned that already like can we, is this some panacea and I'm

[16:05 - 16:13] not. But is there ways in which we can see our environment, our routines, our instructions in a way

[16:13 - 16:20] that decreases extraneous cognitive load, kind of the stuff that's taxing my brain, if you will,

[16:21 - 16:29] my working memory capacity so that I can free that working memory capacity up to have some bandwidth

[16:30 - 16:35] to maybe better self regulate or stay focused on the task in hand or apply that to learning.

[16:36 - 16:40] So if I had to pick two, with your question, it would be getting really familiar with working

[16:40 - 16:45] memory and cognitive load. And I'll let Sarah talk about that because she has lots of really good

[16:45 - 16:54] things to say. And I agree with those two concepts. So working memory is one of the three core

[16:54 - 17:01] executive functions. And working memory is an active mental space where you are concurrently

[17:01 - 17:08] maintaining and processing information. So if you think of your mind spotlight, whatever you're

[17:08 - 17:15] thinking about at the moment, that is happening in your working memory. Cognitive load is the job

[17:15 - 17:21] that we're giving working memory. And cognitive load can be not just the actual

[17:22 - 17:30] task, mental task. It can also be factors in the environments that are making that cognitive load

[17:30 - 17:35] a little bit more heavy for your working memory. It can be internal factors, which of course we

[17:35 - 17:43] cannot control, but it's good for us to sort of understand what goes into if cognitive load is

[17:43 - 17:53] great or if it's manageable. And so cognitive load can vary. Well, working memory capacity can vary.

[17:53 - 18:02] So for example, if I got no sleep and I'm hungry and there's construction outside and I'm distracted,

[18:03 - 18:10] my potential for my working memory is going to be really compromised. So whatever you give me is

[18:10 - 18:16] just going to be heavy. So on a normal day where I'm energized and I feel good and there's

[18:16 - 18:21] nothing kind of distracting going on and I have all the background knowledge to do the task that I'm

[18:21 - 18:27] given. That same job might not be a huge cognitive load for me. My working memory might be like

[18:27 - 18:33] peace of cake. I've got this. But there are so many different variables that can affect what the

[18:33 - 18:39] demands that we're putting on our students. And so for us to understand a little bit about executive

[18:39 - 18:47] functions is to really be able to look at the environment, the context and say what can I do

[18:47 - 18:54] understanding this, understanding the core executive functions. What can I do to make sure that

[18:54 - 19:02] the cognitive load that I am placing on my students, whether I mean to or not, is not unnecessarily

[19:02 - 19:09] heavy. So am I giving them more than they can handle or am I making the job harder that it needs

[19:09 - 19:15] to be? So absolutely working memory, cognitive load, cognitive load is not an executive function but

[19:15 - 19:21] it is an idea central to it's the job that any of us are, the mental job that any of us are doing

[19:21 - 19:27] in the moments and adults, this is not exclusive to children or to school at all. So you know,

[19:27 - 19:34] we give the example of you're driving, you're in an unfamiliar place, the radio's on, maybe you have

[19:34 - 19:42] a passenger talking to you, that's a lot for your working memory and that's a big cognitive load.

[19:42 - 19:48] If you compare that to you're driving in a familiar place, everything, maybe it's the car you've

[19:48 - 19:53] been driving forever and it's quiet, that same task is going to be very easy for you. So

[19:54 - 19:57] similarly, for the classroom, we want to think about those kind of things.

[19:58 - 20:05] You know, can you maybe give an illustration or an anecdote of what does look like in the classroom

[20:05 - 20:14] when students, you know, whether either they're cognitive load is too heavy or just otherwise,

[20:14 - 20:20] right, they're having challenges with their executive function and how does that manifest maybe

[20:20 - 20:28] in some common challenges, whether it's behaviors or, you know, challenges with their learning that

[20:29 - 20:36] teachers may be familiar with, but maybe haven't previously understood the cause as well or have

[20:36 - 20:46] attributed it to other things. Sarah, can I jump in and the bat betty betty? Okay. That's what this

[20:46 - 20:50] book's all about. Ross, I'm so glad you asked that because it's, and I mentioned this word

[20:50 - 20:56] misconceptions before, we've really tried to unpack like, okay, you're seeing this behavior,

[20:56 - 21:04] and we know that behavior is manifest from somewhere. And this regulated behavior, the off-task

[21:04 - 21:09] behavior, what might be even seen as wilful defiance, like I just gave you these instructions and

[21:09 - 21:13] we're getting up from the carpet we're going here and it's like, Sarah's told me stories. She's

[21:13 - 21:19] like, that there's a handful of kids, she mentioned it, all right, like we just set, like, you know,

[21:19 - 21:28] so you can be seen as like this like, almost wilful behavior and trying to tease out like some of

[21:28 - 21:35] those misconceptions and not, and it might be all of those things, right, but it might be things that we

[21:35 - 21:43] can very intentionally consider through three, like, lenses, the books framed around the core

[21:43 - 21:49] executive functions we just mentioned and cognitive load. And just to be clear, and Sarah alluded to

[21:49 - 21:56] this cognitive load is not a bad thing when it's the cognitive load that we kind of intentionally

[21:56 - 22:01] apply in the learning process. It's the extraneous, it's the things that might be getting in the way.

[22:01 - 22:07] So we encourage environment like considering your environment and that's the acoustic environment,

[22:07 - 22:13] that's the visual environment, that's the physical stuff in your space through an executive

[22:13 - 22:19] functioning lens. Same thing with your instruction, right, do I have the background knowledge to do

[22:19 - 22:26] this task or activity to have the materials I need? Is it too much? Is it too little? And then

[22:27 - 22:32] looking at routines, predictable routines, and offloading some of that fraying up working memory

[22:32 - 22:38] because they just become automatic and the more automaticity we have, the better. So it's trying to

[22:38 - 22:44] just kind of step back and see the same thing you've done every day forever, maybe through a different

[22:44 - 22:51] lens, through that executive functioning lens. But the thing I love most about the book is that

[22:51 - 22:58] that practical side, what's it look like in the classroom in Sarah? We went round and round about

[22:58 - 23:03] this because the talk she gave a big part of it was this Betty in the Bats when I first heard Sarah

[23:03 - 23:10] speak. And that's when I kind of fell out of my chair like, oh my gosh, this is what everybody needs to

[23:10 - 23:15] hear and just apply it to your own context. So we went round and round, could we put it in the book,

[23:15 - 23:20] can we leave it in it? Literally, it became ultimately Sarah, would you agree kind of the

[23:20 - 23:27] through line in some ways, each chapter we come back to? Okay, so now what would that look like

[23:27 - 23:32] considering this analogy or this story that Sarah is going to tell right now? It's really good,

[23:32 - 23:38] Russ. Yeah, and I would add a new short version to Sarah, super short version.

[23:38 - 23:43] Super short version. Yes, I will definitely summarize Betty in the Bats. But before I do that,

[23:43 - 23:49] you're going to see things like trouble starting a task, trouble finishing a task.

[23:50 - 23:56] You're going to see kids that do academically, they're doing poorly yet you get the sense that

[23:56 - 24:01] they understand the content and what's happening is they're having trouble either holding the

[24:01 - 24:06] directions and they're working memory or you threw too much content at them at once and now they're

[24:06 - 24:13] trying to juggle the directions and the contents or they seem just distracted. You've given them

[24:13 - 24:17] resources and maybe they look like they're just lost like they're not sure where to look or what

[24:17 - 24:22] resource to use. They have trouble getting along with their peers, they may be a little rigid in

[24:22 - 24:27] terms of being able to share, being able to compromise. Now that comes with the territory in our

[24:27 - 24:33] grades. But when you start to see that as a constant theme and you know as you get to know your

[24:33 - 24:38] students pick up on a little bit of that, you know that they're struggling with flexibility. Even

[24:38 - 24:45] when it comes to shifting from one topic to another or saying, okay, we're going to do horizontal

[24:45 - 24:49] equations and now I'm going to teach you vertical equations and they really have trouble making that

[24:49 - 24:57] flip. They have trouble sort of switching or being flexible mentally. Betty in the Bats is an

[24:57 - 25:03] example of a first grader who's given a task where she has to write sentences about bats. So that

[25:03 - 25:08] they've been learning about bats and they've been learning about complete sentences. And what we do

[25:08 - 25:16] in the book is we lay out the situation and we basically say here's what it might seem like we're

[25:16 - 25:21] just saying right sentences like what's the big deal. But here are all the actual demands that are

[25:21 - 25:27] going on behind the scenes. Like here's what we're really asking of Betty. We're asking her to,

[25:27 - 25:33] you know, come up with ideas for sentences and hold that in her mind. Then we're asking her to

[25:33 - 25:38] now write these sentences and make them complete sentences. And we're asking her to remember,

[25:38 - 25:43] you know, the sounds for words. And we're asking for her to remember letter identification. And

[25:43 - 25:47] you know, maybe we have something else going on in the classroom that totally separate from the

[25:47 - 25:54] situation that is distracting. So we use this scenario and we kind of go through the book and we

[25:54 - 25:58] every at the end of every chapter, we revisit Betty and the bats and we say, okay, now that we've

[25:58 - 26:05] learned about structuring routines, how can we help Betty and how can we take something off of

[26:05 - 26:11] that mental plate that we've established that she has a very, you know, full mental plate of

[26:11 - 26:16] things that aren't really related to the learning goal. So the learning goal or the goal for the

[26:16 - 26:21] practice in the moment is complete sentence and demonstrating you learned about bats. But really

[26:21 - 26:26] what we end up assessing is her ability to pay attention, her ability to remember, her ability

[26:26 - 26:32] to write letters correctly. And so as we in the book, you know, we give lots and lots of examples but

[26:32 - 26:38] we each chapter, we go back to Betty just to say, okay, we're going to revisit Betty and now that

[26:38 - 26:45] we understand how we can tweak our instruction. Let's look at how we can help Betty. So yes,

[26:45 - 26:50] it is definitely we wanted to have something cohesive, I have a cohesive example through the book.

[26:50 - 26:55] So we hope that's helpful and we're very visual with the graphics about removing actual

[26:56 - 27:05] demands from Betty's cognitive load. Are there, what are some of the most common practical things

[27:05 - 27:13] teachers can do to reduce distractions and, you know, and make it easier to focus, maybe certain

[27:13 - 27:19] things that I assume a lot of certain things that the teachers don't realize might be distraction.

[27:20 - 27:26] That's I think yeah, I'll start and then you pick up Mitch, you fill in the holes that I leave

[27:26 - 27:32] behind. I think one of the best things about primary teachers is our devotion to creating this

[27:32 - 27:39] nurturing environment. And I don't mean to knock the upper grades, but you know, I think we are

[27:39 - 27:48] known for having warm and fuzzy and cuddly rooms, which we are not saying shouldn't be the case.

[27:48 - 27:55] But I think we need to be mindful of what is in our student's visual field at the time when we

[27:55 - 28:01] want them to be paying attention to say us or say a task that they're working on. Understanding

[28:01 - 28:06] that inhibition, which is one of the three core executive functions that we haven't really

[28:06 - 28:11] visited in ambition means your ability to filter out the irrelevant and stay focused on what's

[28:11 - 28:16] important. And a lot of those things are reflexive. You know, I always give the example you're driving

[28:16 - 28:21] down the road. There's a new billboard. Your eyes are drawn to it right away. You can't even help it.

[28:21 - 28:27] It's just it's instinctual. And so, same thing with our students. We have to be careful what we're

[28:27 - 28:34] putting where and the demand that we're expecting their inhibitory processes to successfully, you know,

[28:34 - 28:42] navigate. So for sure, what you see in the room, it can all still be there. We just want to be

[28:42 - 28:49] strategic about where we put certain things. Resource wise, you want to have specific and close,

[28:49 - 28:55] because visual search puts demand on working memory. And then, Mitch, do you want to talk about

[28:55 - 29:02] the acoustic environment? Sure. Yeah, I think it's worth exploring for us. And I'm sure your

[29:02 - 29:08] listeners have heard that a noisy classroom is a productive classroom. And what Sarah and I

[29:08 - 29:13] hear what we the curiosity we bring to the book maybe is the best way to say it is it might be,

[29:14 - 29:20] but it may it might not be. So just having a noisy environment might actually put a tremendous

[29:20 - 29:28] amount of load, you know, that experience. So like I'm trying to inhibit and tell a story of a student

[29:28 - 29:34] that I was speaking to in a walkthrough I was visiting a school and had a conversation. I'll

[29:34 - 29:39] make it short, but, you know, that I did she would close her eyes and kind of hear like this

[29:39 - 29:45] could cough any in the classroom. I was so for this particular student spending so much like

[29:45 - 29:52] of that bandwidth, just trying to inhibit like lock that out so I can focus on what I'm trying to do.

[29:53 - 29:59] So that acoustic environment is a really interesting one. There's, you know, different opinions on it

[29:59 - 30:03] where we kind of land like something. I want to play music all the time. Okay, well, if you're

[30:03 - 30:08] going to play music, let's play this specific type of music. And this is where saying specific

[30:08 - 30:13] type of music. And so I was just saying, but everything that Sarah and I present in this book is

[30:13 - 30:20] rooted firmly in research. This isn't just like our opinions based on being veteran teachers

[30:20 - 30:24] all these years. And like, hey, this kind of works like it's not like the jury's not out on these

[30:24 - 30:30] ideas, but presenting in a way to say, okay, now take that to your acoustic environment. And what's

[30:30 - 30:36] that mean for your space? Because that crafting your space is important too, right? You walk in. There's

[30:36 - 30:45] no learning environments are never neutral. There are artificial spaces that we create and curate

[30:45 - 30:51] and continue to nurture. So the acoustic environment in particular is an interesting one. And I'm

[30:52 - 30:59] encouraging teachers to say, look, again, it might be really productive, but it might not be in the

[30:59 - 31:05] your job is to know who's in the room. And that's what I think really interesting about all this

[31:05 - 31:10] work when you boil it all down. It's about knowing who it's relationships with your kids. Like

[31:10 - 31:15] knowing who's in the room, knowing what's working for them, and trying to make those adjustments.

[31:17 - 31:24] Is there, I mean, is there any likelihood that there's no students in the class for whom

[31:25 - 31:29] and overly noisy classroom is distracting and inhibiting?

[31:30 - 31:34] Are you saying is it likely that everyone's at home?

[31:34 - 31:40] Well, I'm saying is it's very polite of you to, you know, to diplomatic to say that might be true,

[31:40 - 31:44] but to me, it sounds like somebody who was trying to come up with something smart to say, but

[31:45 - 31:50] didn't there was no nuance to the fact that yeah, I would say on the one hand,

[31:51 - 31:55] sure, a silent classroom where there's only one person talking and it's all the teacher and

[31:55 - 32:02] there's no response and, you know, no student, no evidence of engagement verbally or otherwise is

[32:03 - 32:07] probably not indicative of the best learning environment, especially for younger kids, but

[32:07 - 32:12] that there needs to be something organized. Yeah, I think it's good.

[32:12 - 32:15] That if everybody's just talking on top of each other and there's a lot going on over here

[32:15 - 32:20] and there's, there's every class has to have some kids for whom that does not work, right?

[32:21 - 32:27] One thousand percent in the story I tell, and it's a true story, the teacher just kept getting

[32:27 - 32:32] and we've been in the spick louder and to thinking I'm communicating because the noise level

[32:32 - 32:36] was going up and up, and I'm just telling the story of one particular student, but yeah,

[32:36 - 32:40] and it's also worth saying, you know, let Sarah weigh in on this particular for primary

[32:41 - 32:46] its moments, like if it is direct instruction or in my world, like maybe I'm lecturing for five or

[32:46 - 32:51] seven minutes, ten minutes on a topic that I need to explain to you, it's complicated.

[32:52 - 32:58] There's times where I need it to be silent, period. I'm speaking, we're talking, I'm checking

[32:58 - 33:03] him for understanding, like I'm in control, but I can't do that for 60 minutes or 100 minutes or

[33:03 - 33:10] even 30 minutes, right? So it's having those times for that quote unquote noisiness, but yeah,

[33:10 - 33:14] you're absolutely right, and maybe I was trying to be nice and diplomatic, but it doesn't work

[33:14 - 33:20] all the time. But if you walk into a room and it's noisy for six hours of a day, my hunch is

[33:20 - 33:26] there's some students in there that could be served better. Yeah, and I would reframe this as

[33:26 - 33:35] we are actually protecting our students' ability to think. We are removing some of the demand

[33:35 - 33:39] that we might be putting on their inhibitory processes to say, okay, I'm going to have your

[33:39 - 33:46] neighbors chatting while you're trying to think through this activity. And now, not only do you

[33:46 - 33:50] have to think through the activity, you've got to filter that out and not listen to that.

[33:50 - 33:56] And we know that our minds are wired to listen or drawn to language, even if it's not our own

[33:56 - 34:04] native language. So we have to actively not pay attention to that. So what we're saying about

[34:04 - 34:12] the acoustic environment is dialogue, noise should be purposeful because engagement in terms of

[34:12 - 34:18] just talking is poor proxy for learning. We know that if you just have a chatty classroom that's

[34:18 - 34:22] not indicative of any learning happening. If we're talking about socialization, that's something

[34:22 - 34:29] different. If that's the purpose, that's something different. But if we want our classrooms to be

[34:29 - 34:36] noisy for the sake of being noisy because we think for some reason that's healthy, what we have

[34:36 - 34:43] to understand is what we're adding the job, the cognitive job that we're adding to our students'

[34:43 - 34:50] minds. If they are trying to either have a conversation, like a directed conversation, maybe they're

[34:50 - 34:55] sharing something that they were thinking of, or they're trying to get some work done, or they're

[34:55 - 35:02] trying to listen to the teacher. And now we're saying, you know, don't listen to that, listen to me,

[35:03 - 35:09] and so we want to be purposeful and even music. I mean, we want to have instrumental.

[35:10 - 35:15] Unless, you know, if it's your coming to the carpet song, like think about what the purpose is,

[35:15 - 35:20] right? And so if we want our kids to be singing along, of course, we don't want instrumental music.

[35:20 - 35:28] But we just want to be purposeful about the times that we're encouraging, chatting, the times

[35:28 - 35:33] that we're encouraging, socialization, and really understand that we might inadvertently be

[35:34 - 35:39] making it harder for our students when we just want our room to be noisy for the sake of being noisy.

[35:41 - 35:48] And Ross, there's times as well that we unpack in the book, we even listen photographs from classrooms

[35:48 - 35:55] of maybe it's not a time where it is quiet, where there could be chatter, but giving students the

[35:56 - 36:02] resources and materials like the agency to say, hey, I need like blockers up. I'm trying to complete

[36:02 - 36:09] this. It's not meant to necessarily be a totally quiet time, because we're out doing whatever

[36:09 - 36:18] XYZ activity is, but I need, I need to inhibit. So I can grab this, put this up, the little,

[36:18 - 36:23] again, making it really practical and relevant to like what's happening in the classroom in all cases.

[36:24 - 36:33] Right, and awesome. I imagine helping students develop their awareness of those dynamics could

[36:33 - 36:40] be part of executive functioning, like not only when it's appropriate to be, for there to be

[36:40 - 36:46] more noise when it's time to be quiet, you know, when we're listening and hearing the instruction

[36:46 - 36:52] versus when we're maybe applying what we've learned or actively doing, but just their awareness of how

[36:54 - 37:01] each of them has an effect on their peers and, you know, how, I mean, the classroom is an organism,

[37:03 - 37:08] that if we don't have some common understanding of each of our role in the learning environment,

[37:08 - 37:15] that it's detrimental to our classmates, and that would be an important thing to learn over time.

[37:15 - 37:20] And, you know, interestingly, the more we talk about these early elementary kids, the more I think,

[37:20 - 37:26] well, the exact same things have applied to adults. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you were trying

[37:26 - 37:32] to do work, the last thing you want is a bunch of people around you talking. I mean, and we have

[37:32 - 37:37] fully developed executive functions. We actually, you know, along the lines of what you were saying about

[37:37 - 37:43] more of the metacognitive piece and the understanding that theory of mind. Other people have these experiences

[37:43 - 37:48] too, which is, which is something new for our young students. We do have a chapter in the book on

[37:49 - 37:55] building your student's own awareness of their own attention and helping them to, you know,

[37:55 - 38:00] being the model as a teacher to say, oh, it was just reading this page to you. I have no idea what I

[38:00 - 38:04] just read. My mind just went somewhere else. Let me read it again and sort of normalizing the fact

[38:04 - 38:10] that this is not just you because you're little and you're learning. This is everyone. We all get

[38:10 - 38:16] distracted, you know, and as hard as it may be, we can make choices about about what we do to support

[38:16 - 38:22] or to challenge our attention and our, you know, our executive functions. And you don't need to use,

[38:22 - 38:26] we're not saying teach your kids. Here's the executive functions, like not at all, but just

[38:26 - 38:31] I'll say to my kids like, when I'm in a staff meeting, I can't sit next to Mrs. Because all I

[38:31 - 38:37] want to do is talk to her. And so you make it, you know, you generalize it as this is just being human.

[38:38 - 38:42] And there are some tools I'm going to make available in the room for you. And you can start to

[38:42 - 38:49] recognize in yourself, like it's too noisy or I need, you know, I need some visual reduction here.

[38:49 - 38:54] So we do talk about that in the book of helping our students start to recognize that in themselves

[38:54 - 39:00] and others. So thanks for, you know, bringing that up. Well, once teachers have a good understanding

[39:00 - 39:07] of this, let's say once they read the book, right? How much do you, does it feel, do you feel like

[39:07 - 39:13] how much, I mean, this applies, I'm sharing your own practice, Sarah, how much of it just becomes

[39:13 - 39:18] really intuitive to what you do. And you just, you have that knowledge, you're not necessarily

[39:18 - 39:24] needing to explicitly access it on a daily basis. But you sort of understand your objectives in

[39:24 - 39:28] the classroom, the executive functioning, what you're doing with students, or how much of it is

[39:29 - 39:34] needing to refer back to it and think about, okay, these are, you know, these are the skills that

[39:34 - 39:41] I'm prioritizing right now. And I'm thinking about that in terms of how manageable, I guess,

[39:42 - 39:48] does it feel for a teacher, right? Does it feel like it's something I have to keep going back to

[39:48 - 39:53] and thinking about? Is it something that once I really understand it, I'm sort of doing it,

[39:53 - 39:58] and I refresh my memory every now and then, or in particularly when I feel like I'm struggling with it,

[39:58 - 40:06] what do you think? It is empowering knowledge because it is another lens through which

[40:07 - 40:12] to look at your practice, to professionalize your judgment. And once you internalize and you get

[40:12 - 40:18] used to saying, okay, am I, you know, let me take a look at my room and, you know, do I have these

[40:18 - 40:23] new recess games out right in front of them? And am I expecting them to pay attention to me? You know,

[40:23 - 40:28] once you get used to thinking that way, it really does happen automatically. I find even for

[40:28 - 40:34] myself, when I have to purposefully go back to thinking, you know, even bringing up the words

[40:34 - 40:40] executive function is when a student is struggling. And I want to pinpoint like what's going on here?

[40:40 - 40:45] Are you really having trouble, you know, learning to read, blending sounds together? Or is there

[40:45 - 40:50] something about the way that I'm teaching you that is, that is challenging your working memory?

[40:50 - 40:55] Or is there something, you know, in the environment or the way that I'm teaching that is overloading,

[40:55 - 41:01] I'm giving you too much? So that's when I find I purposefully I'm going back, you know, and sometimes

[41:01 - 41:06] it's in a moment of exasperation. I mean, we're all human. We all get frustrated and then I have to say,

[41:06 - 41:11] okay, let's remember there, you know, five and six and seven and eight, depending on what grade you

[41:11 - 41:18] teach and their ability to pay attention, which is driven by executive function, is not as

[41:19 - 41:26] we can expect from an adult. So I have to sort of manage my expectations as well. But once you

[41:26 - 41:31] understand, it's kind of like you just see things a little bit differently, like, oh, I need to do,

[41:31 - 41:35] I need to only have them do the first three problems and then stop. I need to not give them

[41:35 - 41:41] directions for the entire thing. Like that's way more than they can manage. So in that sense it's,

[41:41 - 41:47] it becomes seamless through your decision making and it is not lessons that you have to teach. This

[41:47 - 41:52] is knowledge for the teacher to say, now that I know this, what does that look like in my classroom

[41:52 - 41:56] for my students? It is not, you know, an additional curriculum or anything like that.

[41:57 - 42:04] Yeah, that's important to like make really clear that this is not something else for a teacher to

[42:04 - 42:11] do. This is not adding to their plates, but it is one of those things that what it's like once you

[42:11 - 42:17] see it, you can't unsee it in a good way. You're just, you're just see like I mentioned earlier,

[42:17 - 42:24] like the same space, the same thing I'm doing just through a different lens, but it's not there for

[42:24 - 42:32] then something else to do. It's just getting curious about, oh, what I'm seeing this, how is that

[42:32 - 42:40] related to executive functioning? Before we close what I want to ask you, you both can take a crack at

[42:40 - 42:49] this to make the self-serving case to the teacher who is new to this as resistant as like, I don't

[42:49 - 42:55] need to know that or in my day, we didn't need to do executive functions, whatever it is, right?

[42:55 - 43:00] They're not listening anymore, but their principal maybe is listening and is saying, okay, I need to

[43:00 - 43:06] figure out how to get more of my faculty on board with this. I can, I know there's a couple of

[43:06 - 43:12] teachers. I know who they are that they really need to pay attention to this. And of course,

[43:13 - 43:19] you know, we may have a consensus agreement of the value to students, right? When we when we

[43:19 - 43:25] emphasize the executive functions and have more of an awareness understanding patients with it,

[43:25 - 43:32] but for those for whom that just still feels like it's out of reach or it's another thing,

[43:32 - 43:40] what's the case that this in fact makes things better for you as the educator, as the professional,

[43:40 - 43:46] makes your life better, your practice, when you are effective at helping students develop their

[43:46 - 43:53] executive functions? I can, I'm going to jump in Sarah and let you have the last word for the primary

[43:53 - 44:00] space, but I can say it absolutely, and Sarah just mentioned this, like we're talking to the

[44:00 - 44:06] teachers here. This is an interestingly rather the pre-read that both folks from Corwin and folks

[44:06 - 44:12] that people that educators we asked to pre-read that parents, I really resonated with parents as well

[44:13 - 44:19] this book, but this idea in the upper grades like upper elementary and I've had this conversation

[44:19 - 44:27] so many times I it's not it's not even fun to bring up, but the idea that I've had upper elementary

[44:27 - 44:30] teachers tell me, well they're not going to have any of these supports in middle school,

[44:31 - 44:36] why should we do this here? They're not going to like we need to get them ready for that

[44:36 - 44:41] reality or middle schools saying, again, it's just a few you mentioned. Well, why would we,

[44:41 - 44:44] why should we do this? They're not going to have it in high school and high school teachers tell

[44:44 - 44:52] me the same thing about college, right? And just to be clear, yeah, in the way I, the way I just

[44:52 - 44:57] said it to, I try to be a feminine person and I'm speaking to a group and someone asked me that,

[44:57 - 45:02] I don't want to like put them on the spot, but I always just have like this kind of corny story of

[45:02 - 45:08] like, well, if you knew tomorrow for some reason that tomorrow and then the next three days you

[45:08 - 45:14] couldn't have any water, you're just going to be dehydrated for whatever reason and you had to

[45:14 - 45:22] lift through that, okay? Would you stop drinking water today to get ready for the dehydration tomorrow?

[45:22 - 45:26] You know, and it's another way of saying it a more direct is like, you know,

[45:27 - 45:34] poor, inattentive teaching in the few poor, inattentive teaching now is not excused because

[45:34 - 45:40] that might be what they're coming into. So this notion of like what it does for the teacher is

[45:40 - 45:47] absolutely breezy. I would go as far to say it's just more like fun and interesting. You're seeing

[45:47 - 45:53] the whole learning process through, I keep saying it's like a different lens. I personally believe it's

[45:53 - 45:58] like, it's a call action in saying what, well, if we're going to develop that sense of agency and

[45:58 - 46:05] learners that they carry with them and there's a progression K through 12 with this, I feel that

[46:05 - 46:11] it's a responsibility of every teacher to at least be informed about what we're talking about.

[46:12 - 46:19] I'll pass it to Sarah. Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, I am the audience for this book and I

[46:19 - 46:27] wrote it for myself and my colleagues because I felt like we need it just for us. There's two

[46:27 - 46:31] main things that I would say, if a teacher is resistant to, you know, I don't need to know about

[46:31 - 46:38] another, everybody talks about the brain yada yada. We lay the foundation. We teach kids what they,

[46:38 - 46:43] the knowledge and the skills that they need to be successful for all the years to come

[46:44 - 46:52] and that is so, so incredibly important that we get it right and that our students leave us

[46:53 - 47:01] fluent in, you know, reading, fluent in computing. Otherwise, the teachers and years to come are

[47:01 - 47:09] constantly backpedaling. So it is our privilege to be able to be with these kids at this moment in

[47:09 - 47:15] their academic career and their development. That being said, it doesn't always go, we don't

[47:15 - 47:21] always teach everything and they get it right away. I mean, so the frustration that comes along with

[47:21 - 47:26] that, both the frustration, like, I told you this five times and why don't you have it, but also the

[47:26 - 47:33] frustration that our kids get pushed along and we know that they have holes. So I think this is a

[47:33 - 47:40] body of knowledge that we should have been privy to. We should have been taught. And really,

[47:40 - 47:46] you only hear of executive functions in the context of special education, but it doesn't matter

[47:46 - 47:51] what you teach if you're the art teacher, if you're a home-room teacher, if you're

[47:51 - 47:57] itinerant, if you're a speech, this is a human issue. I wouldn't say issue. This is knowledge

[47:57 - 48:03] of just being human and this specific knowledge that we're sharing is about being human around this

[48:03 - 48:13] time of development. And teachers should know how learning happens and how to increase the odds

[48:13 - 48:21] of learning and how to, you know, make their job more successful and more seamless and more efficient.

[48:21 - 48:27] And so I think for the sake of your students, of course, and setting them off on the path of success,

[48:27 - 48:34] we should know about this, but also for the sake of our success as teachers and knowing

[48:34 - 48:39] we're not having kids who just are continually not getting it. They're not picking up the things

[48:39 - 48:45] that they need. So I think being able to send our students off at the automaticity and the

[48:45 - 48:51] foundations that they need is huge reason why and understanding that this is, you deserve to know

[48:51 - 48:57] about this. And this is going to be helpful for you. It's going to professionalize your decision-making.

[48:57 - 49:04] And I think that's reason enough to want to know, to want to be curious about how you can support

[49:04 - 49:10] your students. Yeah, I'm sorry Sarah, I said the last word, but I do have to say something that

[49:10 - 49:16] you've said in the past. Yeah, we've got this to me. And I know. But it's the idea, Ross,

[49:16 - 49:21] and every teacher who's been in the classroom long enough knows you look back on your practice and

[49:21 - 49:28] you think like, gosh, I sure wish I would have, but you figure things out through trial and error.

[49:28 - 49:33] And one of the things we really aimed for in this book for specifically for the primary, but again,

[49:34 - 49:40] I'm saying, everybody would benefit from this is why, if we know some things,

[49:41 - 49:46] why not have that knowledge before you even enter the classroom and you don't go into that 10

[49:46 - 49:51] years, three years, five years of figuring it out. And that's really what this is about.

[49:52 - 49:57] Yeah, yeah, it makes me think a similar thing that I've

[49:58 - 50:04] thought about in, again, with adults and professional settings, not pertaining to executive functions.

[50:04 - 50:14] But I have said that, you know, with hiring, I believe like 20% is hiring the right person.

[50:14 - 50:22] 80% is what you do afterwards. It's having clarity of what the objectives are in purpose and

[50:22 - 50:30] providing ongoing training and development and resources and support and helping people.

[50:30 - 50:38] And to me, it seems obvious, but I've come up against people who think this is ridiculous.

[50:38 - 50:43] It's up to them that they succeed or not. And I say, well, then what's the outcome? Then

[50:43 - 50:47] you keep getting rid of people who aren't working out to get somebody else. Who is that helping?

[50:47 - 50:55] And it's not for them. It is, it's for me. If I'm the leader of the team, I'm successful. If the

[50:55 - 51:02] people on my team are successful, right? And so it's better for me to invest in helping them succeed

[51:02 - 51:08] so that we all do well together. Then for me to just say, well, it's up to you. You know, I hired you

[51:08 - 51:12] and I do what you need to do. You know, so well, not about executive functioning, you know,

[51:12 - 51:18] similarly for the teacher. Look, once you get this stuff running, right? It's not just good for

[51:18 - 51:23] the student. It's good for you too. And it's good for everybody across the class because

[51:23 - 51:30] I mean, certainly I would assume that there's those inner connectedness, right?

[51:30 - 51:36] Where if you have two students who are really struggling with it, it's challenging everybody else

[51:36 - 51:45] and vice versa that, you know, it's not purely and exclusively just needing that long-term thing

[51:45 - 51:49] in which to your point of sometimes we can try to just fast-forward through some of those

[51:49 - 51:54] pieces. Well, in the future, this isn't going to be the case, right? And I see this now with

[51:55 - 52:00] people I'm five year old and they'll say, well, you know, they got to learn this now because in the

[52:00 - 52:08] future, you know, life's not fair. Well, he's five now, like, what happens when they're teenagers

[52:08 - 52:14] at the moment? That'll happen when it happens, but right now, this is a young child, right? So

[52:14 - 52:21] let's deal with what's appropriate at the given moment, right? Well, thank you both. I really,

[52:21 - 52:26] I've really appreciated having you here, like talking through the book here and I know the book is

[52:26 - 52:32] now available from Corwin or wherever folks like to get their books. Is there anything else you'd

[52:32 - 52:38] like to point out before we wrap up here? Anything our listeners should check out in addition to the book.

[52:38 - 52:45] Maybe book one here at Upper Elementary, Middle High School College, but I can't think of anything,

[52:45 - 52:51] Sarah. No, I would love to hear the direction that people take after they do read it, what that,

[52:51 - 52:58] what they're inspired to do or what they're driven to do. Yeah, I would say this Ross, I think

[52:58 - 53:03] what educators and parents will find in if Sarah and I were very intentional about this, like,

[53:03 - 53:09] it's rooted in research, but it's not full of jargon and it's real, it's practical and I would

[53:09 - 53:14] even maybe say, I wouldn't say quick read, but it's not a really long book either and all of that

[53:14 - 53:21] was by design. So I'm echoing Sarah like, if you read it, let us know what you think and how you're

[53:21 - 53:25] seeing things in your classroom, but thanks for having us Ross, really appreciate it. Thanks.

[53:27 - 53:34] Perfect. Well, listeners, we will put the link below to episode 81 of the show. Can't believe

[53:34 - 53:39] that was more than 100 episodes ago, I think at this point. With Mitch talking about executive

[53:39 - 53:45] functions for every classroom for three to 12, if we happen to be interested in that one maybe

[53:45 - 53:50] or in an administrator position and you have teachers at multiple levels, and we will of course

[53:50 - 53:55] put the link directly to executive function K3 where you can get that from Corwin or again,

[53:55 - 54:01] wherever you get your books. So check all of that out. If you have not already, please do subscribe

[54:01 - 54:08] to the authority. We'll have more author interviews coming your way every week on a variety of topics

[54:08 - 54:17] of interest. You can check out all of the 175 180 plus episodes that we've already recorded on

[54:17 - 54:22] topics such as executive functions, science of learning and much, much more. Check those out

[54:22 - 54:29] or visit bpodcast.network to learn about all of our 60 plus shows. Sarah and Mitch, thanks again

[54:29 - 54:32] for being here and sharing with our listeners.