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[Music]
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Hello and welcome to Talk 200, a lecture and podcast series to celebrate The University
of Manchester's Bicentenary Year.
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Our 200th anniversary is a time to celebrate 200 years of learning, innovation and
research.
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200 years of our incredible people and community. 200 years of global influence.
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In this series, we'll be hearing from some of the nation's foremost scientists,
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thinkers and social commentators, plus many other voices from across our university
community
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as we explore the big topics affecting us all.
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In this episode, Nazia Afzal, Chancellor of The University of Manchester and
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former Chief Crown prosecutor for Northwest England, discusses inequalities in access
to justice
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and the steps towards fairer treatment in the legal system.
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Discover the limits to equality within our legal system and how, in the face of recent
scandals in the UK and overseas,
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we can widen access to justice.
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Good afternoon and welcome to this special event.
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The second of our Talk 200 series of exciting lectures and podcasts,
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which are going on throughout 2024, our university's Bicentenary Year.
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This one's especially significant as it falls within our Bicentenary Festival,
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Universally Manchester. We hope that we'll see you at other events across the weekend.
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I'm not only delighted to welcome those who have joined us in person for this event,
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but also those joining online.
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Our 200th anniversary is an opportunity to reflect on our past,
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celebrate our present and look to the future.
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And the Talk 200 series invites listeners to be part of the journey.
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Building on the success of our lockdown lectures and the annual Cockcroft Rutherford
lectures,
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this series features some of the nation's foremost scientists, thinkers, historians and
social commentators,
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as well as many other voices from across the community.
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Talk 200 is a chance to celebrate our people,
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inspiring staff and students, pioneering academics and notable figures.
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Through the lectures and podcasts, we have a diverse lineup of guests
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who are providing insights on a range of themes central to our university's purpose and
values,
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including social responsibility, groundbreaking discovery and civic engagement.
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The Talk 200 series will comprise of four in-person and live-streamed lectures
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and six recorded podcast episodes which you'll be able to access on our Bicentenary
web pages
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and the usual podcast channels.
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The first live lecture was with Professor Chris Whitty,
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looking at the main drivers of inequalities and disparities in health.
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That's available to watch again via our website.
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Our next lecture will be with our brilliant professor, Mike Shaver.
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This time it will take place in London, so look out for that one.
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Our distinguished alumnus and Manchester aficionado, Andy Spinoza,
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is hosting the podcast for this series,
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topics so far being innovation in Manchester and energy and climate change,
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with contributions from our leading academics in this area.
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So be sure to seek them out and tune in.
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We're delighted to begin today with a lecture from Nazir Afzal OBE, our
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esteemed Chancellor and former Chief Crown Prosecutor for north-west England.
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Most recently, Nazir was chief executive of the country's police and crime
commissioners.
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During his 24-year career in these roles, he has prosecuted some of the most
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high-profile cases in the country and advised on many others,
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leading nationally on several legal topics, including violence against women and girls,
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child sexual abuse and honour-based violence.
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He had responsibility for more than 100,000 prosecutions each year.
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His prosecutions of the so-called Rochdale grooming gang
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and hundreds of others were groundbreaking and changed the landscape of child
protection.
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His lecture today, ‘The limits to equality - access to justice and scandal’,
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will discuss inequalities in access to justice and steps towards
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fairer treatment in the legal system.
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Once Nazir has given his lecture, we will move onto a panel discussion
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in which a selection of experts will further discuss issues within this topic.
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Chaired by Claire McGourlay, professor of legal education
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in University of Manchester, the panel will then delve into the disparities
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in access to justice and discuss how we can possibly chart a path
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towards fairer treatment within the legal sphere and the challenges that poses.
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Our superb panellists tonight include exonerated postmaster Tom Hedges,
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barrister and advocate Thalia Marragh, who was played a leading role in the UK
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COVID-19 inquiry and the Grenfell Inquiry and Suzanne Gower, who is a PhD lecturer,
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PhD researcher and lecturer here and former managing director of the legal charity
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appeal, a great collection of expertise.
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Without further ado, can I please ask Nazir Afzal to make his way to the stage.
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Thank you very much indeed Luke, and thank you so much for all of you attending and
also those of you watching
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Online, who include Thalia's family in Montego Bay, Jamaica.
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You can rest assured that's where most of us would like to be tonight, but
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nonetheless welcome to you as well. It's a real pleasure to be able to share a few
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my thoughts on this. My thoughts have germinated, I think, in the last
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decade or so. I left prosecuting in 2015 and one of the reasons I left
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prosecuting was I felt that every prosecution was a failure because somebody
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had been harmed to get to me and I wanted to move more into the
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sphere of prevention and ultimately trying to see whether we could actually
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improve the system that I was part of. That in itself is the problem that we
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call the criminal justice a system rather than a service because when you
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have a system you're only, only focused on process, how things are done, you
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know, arrest, charge, conviction, sentence… That kind of thing.
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Rather than the people in it, the humanity which I think is missing and
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we're going to hear undoubtedly from people I've taught this
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afternoon around when it goes wrong and it does go wrong
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more frequently than perhaps we appreciate. When I first became a lawyer a
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long time ago, 1989, one of my first cases, or first
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group of cases I was dealing with was the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad
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which is a police officers that were, there's no way, other way putting it,
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putting it, they were fitting up suspects. They were writing
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confessions for them on statements and then submitting it and I worked for a
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firm of solicitors called Glaziers who back then were doing some great work
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in miscarriages of justice and I learned my trade working with
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my partners and others in that field and recognised then that was
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there was more needed to be done but again I focused entirely on prosecution
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when I moved into prosecution and I didn't realise what it was that was
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happening in our system. Additionally, you know, I worked in central London
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for 20-odd years, pretty much early on in my career as a
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prosecutor we had Stephen Lawrence's terrible murder and the
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immediate aftermath of that or the lack of an aftermath, namely no
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prosecution for 15 years. That I think in itself again was a steep
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learning curve for all of us around it, perhaps justice doesn't follow
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automatically. It needs some actual, you know, put something
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being done about it rather than expecting somebody to do their job
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and I think we, I can't have this conversation without,
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I'm not going to be party political because we're in a general election
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but to try and describe where we are now as a country when it comes to our
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justice system, we have a broken justice system. It is broken in every respect.
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We have lost half a million years of police experience. That’s 20,000 police
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officers times 25 years. We've lost 600 courtrooms, we've
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lost 800 police stations, we've lost thousands of probation officers
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and victim support workers, there is poor morale throughout the system,
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the lowest public confidence I think in my 30 years in working in the justice
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system, the conviction rate for sexual offences you know is 1.8%,
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turn it around, that means 98.2% of those accused of sex
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offending will not be charged with a crime. There have been increases in domestic
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abuse, increases in violence against women and girls, low police
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detection rates, online fraud is going unpunished, hate crime is going up,
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knife crime is going up, prisoners failing to rehabilitate,
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the longest time, now, ever, from offence to charge
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in all of my years, the highest delays in trials being
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finalised, the highest backlogs in trials being heard
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and NGOs are suffering because they just don't have the resources.
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That's where we are right now. So when we're discussing, as we are
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discussing what's wrong with our system, we have to recognise
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where we are right now is not going to make it any better
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because if anything it's going to make things worse.
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And I tried to understand or try to appreciate, I have the good fortune
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Thalia, I know worked with the Grenfell families, so did I. I carried out the review
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of London Fire Brigade culture about 18 months ago and I had the
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privilege of meeting the Grenfell families and I saw in them, 72
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people, 72 families, quite frankly, who felt that the
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country had let them down and there was nothing that would come from that,
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and we've, what, 7 years in now and to date there has not been one person
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arrested, never mind charged. And so they wonder about accountability.
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And that's the question that I keep asking myself is whether or not
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there really is accountability in our system. And of course the experience of
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people like the Grenfell families, like the Hillsborough families,
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like the infected blood families, you know, you can go on and list them.
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You know, the disproportionate or unfortunate use of joint enterprise,
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there are so many different ways in which
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miscarriages of justice occur, where people are brought into the system
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and the system just follows the process without anybody
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saying stop, let's have a look. And of course, then it links into
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something I know others will touch on this afternoon, is that the
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accountability must come from a legal duty to tell people what's going on.
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You know, we often use the firm, why aren't there any whistleblowers?
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You know, why should there be whistleblowers? The system itself
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should call itself up to scrutiny. There should be, as we,
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undoubtedly we'll discuss, a duty of candour, where people are mandated
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to speak up about what's going wrong in their systems. Right now, as I speak to
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you, I'm now carrying out the independent review of the Nursing and
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Midwifery Council, and my report is due on the 9th of July, would have been
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a couple of weeks earlier, but there was something happening on July
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the 4th, which has delayed that. But again, you've got, and that is the
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world's largest regulator, 808,000 nurses and midwives,
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and you will hear, unfortunately, I can't give you more detail,
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that have there been a duty of candour, have whistleblowers been protected,
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we wouldn't be where we are today, and where the NMC is today.
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So what's wrong? What's wrong with our system? There's so much wrong.
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There is an inequality of arm, inequality of arms. So there are those who, you know,
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we talk about legal costs being really expensive,
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we're then reliant upon people working pro bono, people working for nothing.
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Legal costs are expensive, the high legal fees that we have are preventing low
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income individuals from obtaining representation.
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That can't be right. At the same time, the state or these large
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institutions, such as the post office, have all the resources,
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I'm assisting somebody, I can't talk about, against somebody in power right now,
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and that person in power has said in no uncertain terms to this person,
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I have all the means at my disposal to keep this going forever, and you haven't.
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And that shouldn't be right. There should be an equality, an equality,
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an equality of arms to enable people to be able to represent themselves,
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or be represented through that. Before that, there's the access to legal aid itself,
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the access to legal aid has been struck down over the last few years.
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It's now, there are so many unrepresented defendants appearing in our courtrooms,
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and they are what they're doing, they're often pleading guilty because that's the easiest
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thing to do. You'll hear more about that later from Tom.
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Race and ethnicity is another challenge when it comes to inequality.
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You are 9 times more likely if you're a black person to be stopped and searched by a
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police than a white person. You are as a black person, more likely to be arrested,
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more likely to be charged, more likely to be convicted, more likely sentenced to prison
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than a white person on the same evidence in this country. Well, that surely can't be
right.
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Then we've got the more general things around language barriers. You know, we've had a
massive impact on
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the availability of interpreting services. So many cases fail now because the interpreter
is
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not there, or on many occasions I've seen judges and district judges and magistrates
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say to the defendant, "we can adjourn this case to get you an interpreter, but let's go
ahead anyway."
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And that person doesn't understand a word that's been said to them.
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I could talk about gender bias. Again, I don't have enough time, but you have to
recognise it.
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We do recognise it, I mentioned the 1.8% figure when it comes to victims of sexual
violence.
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That there is a bias in the system when it comes to women and the way that they're
treated,
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and a lack of understanding from legal professionals really about what's happening
within the family,
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what's happening when it comes to sexual violence, what's happening when it comes to
domestic abuse,
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1 in 4 women in this country suffer domestic abuse, 1 in 5 women in this country suffer
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sexual assault, 2 women every week are killed by their partners and ex-partners,
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10 women every week take their own lives because of the abuse they're suffering.
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But I can assure you that judges, magistrates, professionals in the system don't
routinely
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consistently know what they're dealing with. And they don't seek expert advice and
guidance and
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support when they should do. And where they look for it, the NGOs aren't there
anymore,
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or the NGOs aren't properly funded. I'm the patron of 9 women-led NGOs all working in
this field,
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and they spend probably half their time trying to fundraise. I'd rather they spend 100% of
their time
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trying to help the victims that they are meant to be supporting or they are supporting.
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Then there is the geographic inequality, the rural versus urban. If you're living in a rural
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environment, say in Cumbria, I remember when I was Chief Prosecutor for Northwest
England,
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in Cumbria we, as in the Ministry of Justice, closed lots of magistrates' courts. It made
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it a 50-mile journey for some people to travel to a magistrates' court for a hearing,
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with no transport, nothing like they could have on the tube in London. So you have those
kinds of
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issues which undoubtedly will impact upon them. And of course when you're in a close-
knit community
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in a village somewhere in whatever part, the reality is if you make an allegation against
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your partner, for example, this is a real case, everybody in the village tries to dissuade
you
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from going ahead. And that's another issue that we just don't have any research on or
we have any
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understanding of. Infrastructure, I've touched on it, there isn't any infrastructure in
remote
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court when it comes to access to justice in certain large parts of our country. There's the
other
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inequality around educational awareness. There's legal literacy in this country, I'm afraid
is really
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low. That's why you see people on social media saying the law says this, when it doesn't.
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And they go to social media when they don't have the means themselves to know what
the law should
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Be or they wait for Martin Lewis to tell them on his program or something. You know,
what we need to
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have is access to information. You should have access to information. It should be legal
literacy
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in your curriculum, enables you to understand from a very early age what your rights are,
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potentially what you could do differently, where you can seek guidance and seek
support. We thought
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we solved disability access. You go to any courtroom in the country and think about how
difficult it
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is for somebody who's disabled to be able to access either the courts or the legal
offices.
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The accommodation itself outdated. So many of our courtrooms in this country, they've
got
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roofs leaking. They're falling apart. And the idea that somebody who's got disability can
come in
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and do so without being impeded is absolute nonsense. So we've got significant issues
there
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around simply the way we treat disabled people in our system. Never mind how the
prisons deal
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with them. Immigration status, I can't go without mentioning immigration status. We still
have no
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recourse to public funding for so many people, particularly women who are suffering
abuse. They
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don't have the ability to access legal services for free. And that means that, again, the
perpetrator
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can abuse them knowing that's the case. And there are fair repercussions because of
immigration
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status. If you are the victim of modern slavery, technically, you are the victim. Therefore,
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you should be treated as a victim and you be provided with support. But they're
frightened
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and undoubtedly should be frightened given the public discourse that if they come
forward,
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they will simply be deported from the country and the perpetrator who's put them in that
position
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will undoubtedly walk free. And of course, immigration law itself is complex. I thank God
I'm not doing
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immigration law but that changes like every other week. Criminal justice bills every year,
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literally. There's tinker. There's tinker with the criminal law like nobody's business. And
the
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promise of a Rural Commission that was given in 2019 manifesto, by the way, never
came off.
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And so we're still tinkering with the legal system. But all that does is make it even more
complicated
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for the average citizen, never mind the average citizen, for the average lawyer.
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The youth and elderly, young people, not only are they subjected to potential national
service,
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they're also being told to literally suffer. They undoubtedly are treated poorly by the
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services that were there for them on there anymore. Children's services, youth services
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are struggling to provide all manner of support both to the victims and to those
accused.
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And the system has a lack of understanding, really, of particularly youth issues. But
also,
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elderly, the elderly themselves have additional barriers which are not being faced. And
there's
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technological, technological barriers. The digital world, now these days, more and more
post-COVID,
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you know, will do the hearing on Zoom. What the hell is Zoom? I don't have Wi-Fi. You
know,
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all those kinds of things that we seem to think that we've taken for granted. Digital
technology
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is not there. The infrastructure is not there. The system, you know, when I tried to bring
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In digital printing 12 years ago in the CPS, I did. I said, what we would do is we'll send
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our file digitally to the court. The police said, no, no, we can't do it. We'll have to send
you a
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paper copy. The judge said, we need a paper copy too. The whole idea, just, no, but the
system
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wasn't working as a system. And I'm afraid that's still the case. Every element of digital
technology
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seems to take forever when it comes to the criminal justice system or the justice system
more generally.
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And of course, I mentioned internet access or lack of it. And we need to expand all of
these
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services. You know, I'm a very strong believer whether you like it or not in live streaming
of
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all court cases. But for those there were clearly there were vulnerable victims or
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or vulnerable victims or witnesses. I think unless you shine a light on what happens in
our courtrooms,
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you don't know what's happening in our courtrooms. I think that would be the game-
changer
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to my mind about, you know, when we talked about, when Tom talks about his
experience in the Post Office
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scandal is one way of putting it, the hard words, harder words I would use,
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in many of you, it was a television series that suddenly got the government to take this
seriously
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because they saw a visual representation of what happens. Yet others have been writing
about it,
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talking about it for months and years and years and years yet it didn't seem to have the
same
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traction. I think that by shining a light, literally a visual light, on what happens in
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courts is the answer. When I talked about, I wrote about it in the Times a few months
ago,
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a lawyer contacted me and said, "Nazir, if I want to be an actor, I'd have gone to RADA."
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And he totally misunderstood. It's not about him, it's about you, the citizen, the public
gallery,
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which is where you're meant to go, you don't go. They're empty. You don't know what
happens in your
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name and my personal view is that you should have the access to do so. Now, two
minutes, I will
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finish in two minutes by giving you some of the answers. Expanding legal aid, pro bono
work needs
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to be celebrated. I would say it should be mandated for legal firms. Some of them do it,
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some of them pick and choose where they do it. Daugherty Street don't, they do the
good ones.
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Most of them simply pick and choose the sexy stuff and the other stuff that needs to be
done.
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Anti-discrimination programs, I've held so many judges to account. I've got judges
struck off
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because of their abuse and their racism in a courtroom, but that's handful. There is
hardly any
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accountability for judges and lawyers and those in law enforcement when it comes to
implicit and
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cultural competency. The diverse representation is not there. I, 20 judges approached
me 5 years,
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4 or 5 years ago. They can't speak. I had to speak on their behalf. They said that they're
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being bullied within the judicial profession, that there's nobody speaking for them and
they,
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and they, it's quite simply because the system itself isn't diverse enough. Simplified
legal
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Processes, more alternative dispute resolution, more mobile courts, more legal clinics,
greater
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usage of technology, more accessible facilities, more community education, more
school programs,
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more multilingual resources, more interpreter services, greater support for NGOs,
please.
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They are the backbone of our legal system, of our representation and our citizens'
experience,
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more community legal clinics, more integration of services rather than working in silos,
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better data collection so that you know where you know where you are and how bad
things are
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and whether improvements are happening. I will assure you that there will be another
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miscarriage of justice in 5 minutes time. There will be another tomorrow and there will
be another
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day of tomorrow and maybe Sunday is a day off but no, Monday they'll be one. The point
is the
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system is broken. The point is I have no confidence that the people that are meant to be
running it
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are running it for your benefit, the citizen, and that's why we have to hold their, well, hold
their
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feet to the fire. We've got to present them with the answers but also ensure that they
respond
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to our questions and we've got to shine a light on what's going on and not allow the
terrible
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scandals and the thousands and tens of thousands of people that are suffering day in,
day out because
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of the misuse of our system. We need to ensure that they are listened to and the system
works
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for all of us. Thank you.
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Okay, thanks, Nazir. Can I now invite our panellists to come to the stage please and you
can take a seat
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after telling us all about the things that we need to change in our justice system.
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To stay up to date with everything Talk 200, be sure to follow and subscribe to the series
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01:34:39,760 --> 01:34:48,080
on the podcasting platform of your choice. Head to manchester.ac.uk/200 to find out
more about the
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01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:55,360
series and all the activity taking place across our bicentenary year. Use the hashtag
#uom200 to
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01:34:55,360 --> 01:35:01,360
engage with Talk 200 and our wider bicentenary celebrations on social media. Thank
you for joining
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01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:13,200
us for this episode of Talk 200, a University of Manchester series.
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01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:18,260
(upbeat music)
00:00:00,001 --> 00:00:12,720
[Music]
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Hello and welcome to Talk 200, a lecture and podcast series to celebrate The University
of Manchester's Bicentenary Year.
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Our 200th anniversary is a time to celebrate 200 years of learning, innovation and
research.
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200 years of our incredible people and community. 200 years of global influence.
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In this series, we'll be hearing from some of the nation's foremost scientists,
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00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:41,920
thinkers and social commentators, plus many other voices from across our university
community
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as we explore the big topics affecting us all.
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00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,920
In this episode, Nazia Afzal, Chancellor of The University of Manchester and
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former Chief Crown prosecutor for Northwest England, discusses inequalities in access
to justice
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and the steps towards fairer treatment in the legal system.
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Discover the limits to equality within our legal system and how, in the face of recent
scandals in the UK and overseas,
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we can widen access to justice.
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Good afternoon and welcome to this special event.
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The second of our Talk 200 series of exciting lectures and podcasts,
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which are going on throughout 2024, our university's Bicentenary Year.
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This one's especially significant as it falls within our Bicentenary Festival,
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Universally Manchester. We hope that we'll see you at other events across the weekend.
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I'm not only delighted to welcome those who have joined us in person for this event,
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but also those joining online.
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Our 200th anniversary is an opportunity to reflect on our past,
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celebrate our present and look to the future.
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And the Talk 200 series invites listeners to be part of the journey.
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Building on the success of our lockdown lectures and the annual Cockcroft Rutherford
lectures,
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this series features some of the nation's foremost scientists, thinkers, historians and
social commentators,
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as well as many other voices from across the community.
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Talk 200 is a chance to celebrate our people,
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inspiring staff and students, pioneering academics and notable figures.
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Through the lectures and podcasts, we have a diverse lineup of guests
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who are providing insights on a range of themes central to our university's purpose and
values,
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including social responsibility, groundbreaking discovery and civic engagement.
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The Talk 200 series will comprise of four in-person and live-streamed lectures
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and six recorded podcast episodes which you'll be able to access on our Bicentenary
web pages
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and the usual podcast channels.
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The first live lecture was with Professor Chris Whitty,
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looking at the main drivers of inequalities and disparities in health.
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That's available to watch again via our website.
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Our next lecture will be with our brilliant professor, Mike Shaver.
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This time it will take place in London, so look out for that one.
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Our distinguished alumnus and Manchester aficionado, Andy Spinoza,
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is hosting the podcast for this series,
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topics so far being innovation in Manchester and energy and climate change,
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with contributions from our leading academics in this area.
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So be sure to seek them out and tune in.
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We're delighted to begin today with a lecture from Nazir Afzal OBE, our
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esteemed Chancellor and former Chief Crown Prosecutor for north-west England.
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Most recently, Nazir was chief executive of the country's police and crime
commissioners.
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During his 24-year career in these roles, he has prosecuted some of the most
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high-profile cases in the country and advised on many others,
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leading nationally on several legal topics, including violence against women and girls,
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child sexual abuse and honour-based violence.
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He had responsibility for more than 100,000 prosecutions each year.
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His prosecutions of the so-called Rochdale grooming gang
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and hundreds of others were groundbreaking and changed the landscape of child
protection.
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His lecture today, ‘The limits to equality - access to justice and scandal’,
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will discuss inequalities in access to justice and steps towards
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fairer treatment in the legal system.
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Once Nazir has given his lecture, we will move onto a panel discussion
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in which a selection of experts will further discuss issues within this topic.
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Chaired by Claire McGourlay, professor of legal education
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in University of Manchester, the panel will then delve into the disparities
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in access to justice and discuss how we can possibly chart a path
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towards fairer treatment within the legal sphere and the challenges that poses.
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Our superb panellists tonight include exonerated postmaster Tom Hedges,
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barrister and advocate Thalia Marragh, who was played a leading role in the UK
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COVID-19 inquiry and the Grenfell Inquiry and Suzanne Gower, who is a PhD lecturer,
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PhD researcher and lecturer here and former managing director of the legal charity
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appeal, a great collection of expertise.
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Without further ado, can I please ask Nazir Afzal to make his way to the stage.
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Thank you very much indeed Luke, and thank you so much for all of you attending and
also those of you watching
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Online, who include Thalia's family in Montego Bay, Jamaica.
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You can rest assured that's where most of us would like to be tonight, but
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nonetheless welcome to you as well. It's a real pleasure to be able to share a few
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my thoughts on this. My thoughts have germinated, I think, in the last
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decade or so. I left prosecuting in 2015 and one of the reasons I left
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prosecuting was I felt that every prosecution was a failure because somebody
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had been harmed to get to me and I wanted to move more into the
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sphere of prevention and ultimately trying to see whether we could actually
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improve the system that I was part of. That in itself is the problem that we
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call the criminal justice a system rather than a service because when you
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have a system you're only, only focused on process, how things are done, you
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know, arrest, charge, conviction, sentence… That kind of thing.
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Rather than the people in it, the humanity which I think is missing and
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we're going to hear undoubtedly from people I've taught this
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afternoon around when it goes wrong and it does go wrong
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more frequently than perhaps we appreciate. When I first became a lawyer a
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long time ago, 1989, one of my first cases, or first
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group of cases I was dealing with was the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad
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which is a police officers that were, there's no way, other way putting it,
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putting it, they were fitting up suspects. They were writing
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confessions for them on statements and then submitting it and I worked for a
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firm of solicitors called Glaziers who back then were doing some great work
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in miscarriages of justice and I learned my trade working with
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my partners and others in that field and recognised then that was
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there was more needed to be done but again I focused entirely on prosecution
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when I moved into prosecution and I didn't realise what it was that was
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happening in our system. Additionally, you know, I worked in central London
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for 20-odd years, pretty much early on in my career as a
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prosecutor we had Stephen Lawrence's terrible murder and the
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immediate aftermath of that or the lack of an aftermath, namely no
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prosecution for 15 years. That I think in itself again was a steep
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learning curve for all of us around it, perhaps justice doesn't follow
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automatically. It needs some actual, you know, put something
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being done about it rather than expecting somebody to do their job
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and I think we, I can't have this conversation without,
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I'm not going to be party political because we're in a general election
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but to try and describe where we are now as a country when it comes to our
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justice system, we have a broken justice system. It is broken in every respect.
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We have lost half a million years of police experience. That’s 20,000 police
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officers times 25 years. We've lost 600 courtrooms, we've
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lost 800 police stations, we've lost thousands of probation officers
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and victim support workers, there is poor morale throughout the system,
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the lowest public confidence I think in my 30 years in working in the justice
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system, the conviction rate for sexual offences you know is 1.8%,
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turn it around, that means 98.2% of those accused of sex
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offending will not be charged with a crime. There have been increases in domestic
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abuse, increases in violence against women and girls, low police
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detection rates, online fraud is going unpunished, hate crime is going up,
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knife crime is going up, prisoners failing to rehabilitate,
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the longest time, now, ever, from offence to charge
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in all of my years, the highest delays in trials being
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finalised, the highest backlogs in trials being heard
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and NGOs are suffering because they just don't have the resources.
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That's where we are right now. So when we're discussing, as we are
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discussing what's wrong with our system, we have to recognise
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where we are right now is not going to make it any better
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because if anything it's going to make things worse.
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And I tried to understand or try to appreciate, I have the good fortune
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Thalia, I know worked with the Grenfell families, so did I. I carried out the review
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of London Fire Brigade culture about 18 months ago and I had the
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privilege of meeting the Grenfell families and I saw in them, 72
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people, 72 families, quite frankly, who felt that the
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country had let them down and there was nothing that would come from that,
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and we've, what, 7 years in now and to date there has not been one person
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arrested, never mind charged. And so they wonder about accountability.
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And that's the question that I keep asking myself is whether or not
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there really is accountability in our system. And of course the experience of
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people like the Grenfell families, like the Hillsborough families,
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like the infected blood families, you know, you can go on and list them.
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You know, the disproportionate or unfortunate use of joint enterprise,
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there are so many different ways in which
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miscarriages of justice occur, where people are brought into the system
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and the system just follows the process without anybody
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saying stop, let's have a look. And of course, then it links into
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something I know others will touch on this afternoon, is that the
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accountability must come from a legal duty to tell people what's going on.
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You know, we often use the firm, why aren't there any whistleblowers?
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You know, why should there be whistleblowers? The system itself
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should call itself up to scrutiny. There should be, as we,
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undoubtedly we'll discuss, a duty of candour, where people are mandated
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to speak up about what's going wrong in their systems. Right now, as I speak to
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you, I'm now carrying out the independent review of the Nursing and
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Midwifery Council, and my report is due on the 9th of July, would have been
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a couple of weeks earlier, but there was something happening on July
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the 4th, which has delayed that. But again, you've got, and that is the
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world's largest regulator, 808,000 nurses and midwives,
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and you will hear, unfortunately, I can't give you more detail,
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that have there been a duty of candour, have whistleblowers been protected,
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we wouldn't be where we are today, and where the NMC is today.
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So what's wrong? What's wrong with our system? There's so much wrong.
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There is an inequality of arm, inequality of arms. So there are those who, you know,
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we talk about legal costs being really expensive,
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we're then reliant upon people working pro bono, people working for nothing.
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Legal costs are expensive, the high legal fees that we have are preventing low
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income individuals from obtaining representation.
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That can't be right. At the same time, the state or these large
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institutions, such as the post office, have all the resources,
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I'm assisting somebody, I can't talk about, against somebody in power right now,
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and that person in power has said in no uncertain terms to this person,
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I have all the means at my disposal to keep this going forever, and you haven't.
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And that shouldn't be right. There should be an equality, an equality,
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an equality of arms to enable people to be able to represent themselves,
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or be represented through that. Before that, there's the access to legal aid itself,
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the access to legal aid has been struck down over the last few years.
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It's now, there are so many unrepresented defendants appearing in our courtrooms,
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and they are what they're doing, they're often pleading guilty because that's the easiest
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thing to do. You'll hear more about that later from Tom.
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Race and ethnicity is another challenge when it comes to inequality.
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You are 9 times more likely if you're a black person to be stopped and searched by a
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police than a white person. You are as a black person, more likely to be arrested,
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more likely to be charged, more likely to be convicted, more likely sentenced to prison
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than a white person on the same evidence in this country. Well, that surely can't be
right.
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Then we've got the more general things around language barriers. You know, we've had a
massive impact on
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the availability of interpreting services. So many cases fail now because the interpreter
is
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not there, or on many occasions I've seen judges and district judges and magistrates
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say to the defendant, "we can adjourn this case to get you an interpreter, but let's go
ahead anyway."
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And that person doesn't understand a word that's been said to them.
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I could talk about gender bias. Again, I don't have enough time, but you have to
recognise it.
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We do recognise it, I mentioned the 1.8% figure when it comes to victims of sexual
violence.
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That there is a bias in the system when it comes to women and the way that they're
treated,
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and a lack of understanding from legal professionals really about what's happening
within the family,
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what's happening when it comes to sexual violence, what's happening when it comes to
domestic abuse,
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1 in 4 women in this country suffer domestic abuse, 1 in 5 women in this country suffer
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sexual assault, 2 women every week are killed by their partners and ex-partners,
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10 women every week take their own lives because of the abuse they're suffering.
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But I can assure you that judges, magistrates, professionals in the system don't
routinely
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consistently know what they're dealing with. And they don't seek expert advice and
guidance and
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support when they should do. And where they look for it, the NGOs aren't there
anymore,
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or the NGOs aren't properly funded. I'm the patron of 9 women-led NGOs all working in
this field,
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and they spend probably half their time trying to fundraise. I'd rather they spend 100% of
their time
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trying to help the victims that they are meant to be supporting or they are supporting.
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Then there is the geographic inequality, the rural versus urban. If you're living in a rural
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environment, say in Cumbria, I remember when I was Chief Prosecutor for Northwest
England,
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in Cumbria we, as in the Ministry of Justice, closed lots of magistrates' courts. It made
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it a 50-mile journey for some people to travel to a magistrates' court for a hearing,
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with no transport, nothing like they could have on the tube in London. So you have those
kinds of
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issues which undoubtedly will impact upon them. And of course when you're in a close-
knit community
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in a village somewhere in whatever part, the reality is if you make an allegation against
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your partner, for example, this is a real case, everybody in the village tries to dissuade
you
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from going ahead. And that's another issue that we just don't have any research on or
we have any
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understanding of. Infrastructure, I've touched on it, there isn't any infrastructure in
remote
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court when it comes to access to justice in certain large parts of our country. There's the
other
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inequality around educational awareness. There's legal literacy in this country, I'm afraid
is really
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low. That's why you see people on social media saying the law says this, when it doesn't.
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And they go to social media when they don't have the means themselves to know what
the law should
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Be or they wait for Martin Lewis to tell them on his program or something. You know,
what we need to
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have is access to information. You should have access to information. It should be legal
literacy
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in your curriculum, enables you to understand from a very early age what your rights are,
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potentially what you could do differently, where you can seek guidance and seek
support. We thought
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we solved disability access. You go to any courtroom in the country and think about how
difficult it
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is for somebody who's disabled to be able to access either the courts or the legal
offices.
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The accommodation itself outdated. So many of our courtrooms in this country, they've
got
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roofs leaking. They're falling apart. And the idea that somebody who's got disability can
come in
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and do so without being impeded is absolute nonsense. So we've got significant issues
there
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around simply the way we treat disabled people in our system. Never mind how the
prisons deal
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with them. Immigration status, I can't go without mentioning immigration status. We still
have no
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recourse to public funding for so many people, particularly women who are suffering
abuse. They
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don't have the ability to access legal services for free. And that means that, again, the
perpetrator
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can abuse them knowing that's the case. And there are fair repercussions because of
immigration
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status. If you are the victim of modern slavery, technically, you are the victim. Therefore,
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you should be treated as a victim and you be provided with support. But they're
frightened
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and undoubtedly should be frightened given the public discourse that if they come
forward,
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they will simply be deported from the country and the perpetrator who's put them in that
position
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will undoubtedly walk free. And of course, immigration law itself is complex. I thank God
I'm not doing
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immigration law but that changes like every other week. Criminal justice bills every year,
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literally. There's tinker. There's tinker with the criminal law like nobody's business. And
the
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promise of a Rural Commission that was given in 2019 manifesto, by the way, never
came off.
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And so we're still tinkering with the legal system. But all that does is make it even more
complicated
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for the average citizen, never mind the average citizen, for the average lawyer.
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The youth and elderly, young people, not only are they subjected to potential national
service,
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they're also being told to literally suffer. They undoubtedly are treated poorly by the
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services that were there for them on there anymore. Children's services, youth services
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are struggling to provide all manner of support both to the victims and to those
accused.
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And the system has a lack of understanding, really, of particularly youth issues. But
also,
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elderly, the elderly themselves have additional barriers which are not being faced. And
there's
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technological, technological barriers. The digital world, now these days, more and more
post-COVID,
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you know, will do the hearing on Zoom. What the hell is Zoom? I don't have Wi-Fi. You
know,
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all those kinds of things that we seem to think that we've taken for granted. Digital
technology
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is not there. The infrastructure is not there. The system, you know, when I tried to bring
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In digital printing 12 years ago in the CPS, I did. I said, what we would do is we'll send
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our file digitally to the court. The police said, no, no, we can't do it. We'll have to send
you a
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paper copy. The judge said, we need a paper copy too. The whole idea, just, no, but the
system
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wasn't working as a system. And I'm afraid that's still the case. Every element of digital
technology
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seems to take forever when it comes to the criminal justice system or the justice system
more generally.
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And of course, I mentioned internet access or lack of it. And we need to expand all of
these
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services. You know, I'm a very strong believer whether you like it or not in live streaming
of
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all court cases. But for those there were clearly there were vulnerable victims or
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or vulnerable victims or witnesses. I think unless you shine a light on what happens in
our courtrooms,
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you don't know what's happening in our courtrooms. I think that would be the game-
changer
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to my mind about, you know, when we talked about, when Tom talks about his
experience in the Post Office
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scandal is one way of putting it, the hard words, harder words I would use,
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in many of you, it was a television series that suddenly got the government to take this
seriously
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because they saw a visual representation of what happens. Yet others have been writing
about it,
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talking about it for months and years and years and years yet it didn't seem to have the
same
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traction. I think that by shining a light, literally a visual light, on what happens in
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courts is the answer. When I talked about, I wrote about it in the Times a few months
ago,
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a lawyer contacted me and said, "Nazir, if I want to be an actor, I'd have gone to RADA."
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And he totally misunderstood. It's not about him, it's about you, the citizen, the public
gallery,
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which is where you're meant to go, you don't go. They're empty. You don't know what
happens in your
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name and my personal view is that you should have the access to do so. Now, two
minutes, I will
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finish in two minutes by giving you some of the answers. Expanding legal aid, pro bono
work needs
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to be celebrated. I would say it should be mandated for legal firms. Some of them do it,
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some of them pick and choose where they do it. Daugherty Street don't, they do the
good ones.
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Most of them simply pick and choose the sexy stuff and the other stuff that needs to be
done.
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Anti-discrimination programs, I've held so many judges to account. I've got judges
struck off
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because of their abuse and their racism in a courtroom, but that's handful. There is
hardly any
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accountability for judges and lawyers and those in law enforcement when it comes to
implicit and
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cultural competency. The diverse representation is not there. I, 20 judges approached
me 5 years,
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4 or 5 years ago. They can't speak. I had to speak on their behalf. They said that they're
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being bullied within the judicial profession, that there's nobody speaking for them and
they,
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and they, it's quite simply because the system itself isn't diverse enough. Simplified
legal
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Processes, more alternative dispute resolution, more mobile courts, more legal clinics,
greater
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usage of technology, more accessible facilities, more community education, more
school programs,
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more multilingual resources, more interpreter services, greater support for NGOs,
please.
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They are the backbone of our legal system, of our representation and our citizens'
experience,
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more community legal clinics, more integration of services rather than working in silos,
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better data collection so that you know where you know where you are and how bad
things are
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and whether improvements are happening. I will assure you that there will be another
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miscarriage of justice in 5 minutes time. There will be another tomorrow and there will
be another
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day of tomorrow and maybe Sunday is a day off but no, Monday they'll be one. The point
is the
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system is broken. The point is I have no confidence that the people that are meant to be
running it
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are running it for your benefit, the citizen, and that's why we have to hold their, well, hold
their
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feet to the fire. We've got to present them with the answers but also ensure that they
respond
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to our questions and we've got to shine a light on what's going on and not allow the
terrible
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scandals and the thousands and tens of thousands of people that are suffering day in,
day out because
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of the misuse of our system. We need to ensure that they are listened to and the system
works
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for all of us. Thank you.
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Okay, thanks, Nazir. Can I now invite our panellists to come to the stage please and you
can take a seat
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after telling us all about the things that we need to change in our justice system.
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To stay up to date with everything Talk 200, be sure to follow and subscribe to the series
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01:34:39,760 --> 01:34:48,080
on the podcasting platform of your choice. Head to manchester.ac.uk/200 to find out
more about the
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01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:55,360
series and all the activity taking place across our bicentenary year. Use the hashtag
#uom200 to
870
01:34:55,360 --> 01:35:01,360
engage with Talk 200 and our wider bicentenary celebrations on social media. Thank
you for joining
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01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:13,200
us for this episode of Talk 200, a University of Manchester series.
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01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:18,260
(upbeat music)
