Embracing the Transformative Power in the Shifting Landscape of Education (April 17, 2024)

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Derek Lundsten: Welcome everyone to our newest installment of Rebels With A Heart. Excited to get the conversation going with you all in just a few moments. I'm excited for our guests today. Amazing people and leaders and professors and teachers in the world of [00:01:00] education and higher ed for students of all ages and families of all ages.
So we will introduce them in just a moment. Thanks for being here with us today, everyone.
All right, that pause is one of my favorite parts of the Rebels With A Heart episode when we get to just be present and it's actually very relevant to today's conversation which is our first ever episode around education which has undoubtedly been affected and is evolving over the last few years through the impact of the pandemic and beyond and it's shifting how we do a lot of different things uh and that's one area we're going to talk about today so with that I'm well I'm excited to welcome our guests um to the show and we'll start with with you Angie with introducing yourself.
Angie Walker: All right. Well, thank you. Hello everyone. My name is Angie Walker. I am a 20 plus year HR practitioner. Loved every minute of it. Started my career in my favorite land, which is talent acquisition. It was called recruiting back then and continue to progress to every area now and [00:02:00] have been leading HR teams for about nine, nine, 10 years now.
Um, I have spent over a decade in higher education, um, practicing HR. Um, was able to practice both on the for profit and not for profit side, and then about nine months ago transitioned out of higher ed and into the K 12 arena, um, specifically focused on those children with special needs, which has been an amazing ride so far.
Um, outside of work, I am a single mom. I have two kids. I have a 10 year old and a 12 year old. I think this might be my favorite stage of life so far, um, but I say that at every stage. I, I do know I have the really difficult years ahead and those are of course the teenage years, but um, yeah, spend, love spending my time with them outside of work.
I live in Phoenix, Arizona, so this is the perfect time of year for us to take advantage of the weather and the hiking and All the other fun stuff that we can do outside. And that's a little bit about me. [00:03:00]
Derek Lundsten: Awesome. I completely agree with, with that statement about Arizona, even though today I usually live there, but today I'm in Las Vegas.
Actually, I was just at the Shermtown Acquisition Conference. So it's, it's relevant, but welcome Angie. We will go over to you, Kevin.
Kevin Salcido: Derek, I'm Kevin Salcido. I, number one, I want to thank you for the invitation to participate with these great colleagues. And I'm looking forward to a very robust discussion. I spent 33, 34 years in human resources. I worked half the time in the private sector. I retired from Arizona State University as the Vice President of Human Resources.
I should say I left full time work. I still do a little consulting and training. I have a book actually on Amazon. It's called Your Afternoon Mentor and it's full of my insights I've gleaned over a year. A career in leadership, uh, about how to get notice for an executive job, how to transition to an executive job, and how to make an executive job last.
As I mentioned, uh, semi retired, spent a lot of time outside. Like [00:04:00] Andy said, I'm from Phoenix, Arizona. It's a great place to be, hiking, golfing, walking. So, uh, I'm looking forward to this discussion. 
Derek Lundsten: Amazing. Welcome Kevin and Dr. Yuday. 
Yuvay Ferguson: Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be on this panel.
Um, like Kevin and Angie, I also left academia recently. I'm an educational consultant, um, based in the Orlando, Florida area, and I help companies to create workplaces and cultures that are optimized for today's multigenerational workforces. Um, I really believe that companies can invest in the workplace through education.
Um, I am a, like I said, I'm academic by training, marketing professor for 16 years. My PhD is in advertising from the University of Texas at Austin. Most recently, I was the assistant dean of the business school at Howard University in Washington, D. C., and I just am excited about this opportunity to really talk about the changing landscape of academia and the workplace and how that matches each other.[00:05:00]
Derek Lundsten: Amazing. Well, we are excited to have you here, uh, and for all of you to be here. Um, and I'll just, again, for the audience, Derek Lundsten, I'm the President and Chief Culture Officer of LifeGuides, which is a platform that connects people for sharing their life experiences, uh, for purposes of empathy, connection, and lifelong learning.
So, it's very much applicable, and we're doing work in the education space, and I also have the great privilege to be the host of Rebels With A Heart, where we all are today. So, first off, again, thank you. 
I'm going to start it with a personal question, um, since we're going to be talking about Business and administration and how that's evolving and different views on that.
But why did each of you choose to get into the higher education or education space of all areas? You have this, each of you has this HR background, but you all have had this specialty in the world of education. Why? What, what was the motivation? What was, what was the draw? And feel free to take that in any order.
There's no rules here. There's no, there's no orientation. Feel free to go to where you wish. [00:06:00]
Kevin Salcido: Well, I'll start, you know, just I guess because I'm a first generation college goer in my family, I was able to benefit from the impact of having a couple different degrees. It just set my career trajectory and my life trajectory actually more important than my career, um, sending Skyward.
Uh, it's just, it's an amazing thing when somebody Uh, is able to, to accomplish a higher education experience because it does change your, your life and change the life of those that come behind you. So, uh, I, I went into higher education because I like the energy, I like the students, I like the fact that there is always a thousand things going on on campus.
I like the fact that our leader at Arizona State University was really all about impacting society at large, not just having a closed-end educational experience. So it kind of lined up with all my values as far as the importance of education and the importance of giving back to the community and that the, uh, the importance of being a member of a, [00:07:00] of a community that has, uh, um, this impact on society at large.
That, that was my motivation. 
Yuvay Ferguson: Yeah, like Kevin, it's something really special about a 20 year old and it's the energy of being on a college campus. Um, again, 20 year old, they think they know everything, but they're optimistic at the same time. And they're open, um, to just learning new things and to see the light bulbs go off.
I had a professor tell me about, you know, have you considered or asked me, have I ever considered? Going into academia, I used to kind of step up and be the unofficial TA in my classes. I like to talk. So being able to, and wanting to actually help people get concepts, a professor introduced it to me and I took off running after that.
Um, there's just something beautiful about seeing light bulbs go off in other people's head. And I wanted to be a part of that type of work. 
Kevin Salcido: Javay, I don't want to, I don't want to get kind of anti here, but isn't it so exciting the first day of school because you see. The [00:08:00] new kids are coming on and they're kind of.
Taking it all in and then I love graduation day. 
Angie Walker: Me too. Yes. 
Kevin Salcido: It's four years later and they have their caps and gowns and their parents are taking pictures of them and they're going out to lunch and they have their family and friends around them. It's just so interesting to see that whole cycle from the newbies to.
Love it. Auntie, I'm sorry to interrupt you. 
Angie Walker: No, I mean, you actually brought up something I was going to mention anyway, is that that day of graduation. Is, is the, the peak and it's the reason, you know, even in human resources, in my roles, I wasn't directly interacting with the, the students, but on that day, it made all of the hard days worth it and made me energized to do it again.
You're spot on on that. Um, I, my perspective and why I joined higher ed was a little bit different. So I was, uh, before I went into higher ed, I was actually, um, my career had started in warehousing and logistics. So, um, whole different environment and, um, [00:09:00] 2008 happened and there was a ton of layoffs. I mean, the logistics industry was hit really hard, um, but I realized I just wanted to do something that I knew was stable.
And there was two industries that regardless of the economy, stay pretty stable and that's education and healthcare. So I had a targeted search and ended up in higher ed, which there's a whole other story about me almost walking out of that interview because I thought it was a fake university, but good thing I stayed and it turned into an amazing career.
Um, I also have to say is the, the growth and being part of something. So I didn't join higher ed for the same reasons that Yuve and Kevin had mentioned. But I learned that very quickly and had my bachelor's degree, pursued my master's degree, was strongly encouraged to start my doctorate, which I didn't do, but still in the back of my head.
Um, but it, it is such an amazing piece and education does change lives. Um, I wouldn't be here today if I didn't [00:10:00] have my education and background. And at one point I almost dropped out. I was. College, and thankfully I didn't, um, but I mean, I had the paperwork in hand. So, yeah, that's why I'm in education.
And then let me add now, now that I'm in the K 12 space, previously it was, um, in higher ed, it was online university. Now, I do have campuses. I do get to see the students. I do get to enjoy that first and last day of school. Um, and that energy is just amazing. 
Derek Lundsten: So, thank you for each of you sharing that. And I think there's, you know, I just, like, thinking back, I actually saw a college friend who was here in this trip this time, so it reminded us of those experiences of being there.
And you're right, that there's that environment, that energy, that youthfulness, the optimism, the way to try things new, these new relationships, new connections, new dots, like, there's something very special. And it's only found in that university environment, right? It's not, you just, it's not, it's not elsewhere or in that educational environment, the school [00:11:00] campus.
And so that's actually a nice question as well. And to your point, Kevin, about Arizona state, I mean, you think about the, how the evolution of what that went through over the course of 20 years, reputationally from being a, frankly, a school that was known for its parties to now being a well renowned school of science and technology out there.
Right. One of the top schools in the country in that respect. And to your point, Michael Crow is really known for that, that transformation. And so, but you feel that in that school, right? You know, it's really shows the 
Kevin Salcido: power of a leader with vision. I mean, Dr. Coe came into Arizona State University with a very defined vision.
He felt that, um, higher education as a rule was more exclusive. Optimated, more inclusive. Dr. Crow's philosophy was if you could do college level work, you can, we're going to find a home for you at Arizona State University. And he, he stuck to that vision. And as, as a, as a result, he was able to prove that access and achievement.
are not mutually [00:12:00] exclusive. In other words, you don't have to be a 4. 4 to be successful in college, a 4. 4 GPA. You can be a B student like I was, frankly. And if you go to an institution that's really focused on getting you in, keeping you, and graduating you, you're going to really impact not only, again, like I said earlier, the life of the person themselves, but the lives of those around you.
So, uh, just having a very clear vision of. What higher education can do for people. I think that's what led Dr. Crow to be so successful at Arizona State University. 
Derek Lundsten: Yeah, well, it's to that, to that point about the environment and just we're coming back to it for a moment, right? 
And you've all kind of in your story shared a little about the campus experience versus online experiences.
Obviously, there's been a massive growth over the last couple of years of online education in universities and schools broadly as a result of just a necessity. It was already kind of growing before COVID, but now it's become. [00:13:00] Really a core part of, you know, we talk about hybrid work, it's hybrid schooling.
How is that, how is that shifting, how is that shifting that experience, that specialness, if you will, on campuses? How is that shifting how administrators and teachers and students are experiencing that environment? How is it affecting their, their outcomes? I mean, riff on that a little bit. Feel free, you know, that's for genuine curiosity.
And anyone can kind of run with that. 
Yuvay Ferguson: I'd like to comment on that one. Um, there really is a difference between in person and online education. And I do, I don't want to take away from online education. I think that online education is really good at meeting a goal. Informing, getting you prepared. That is exactly what it is capable of.
I'm thankful that we have this technology. Um, The in on campus in class experience is different. There's a lot of nuances that as a faculty member or a teacher that you can provide to a student when you are getting to see them face to face. So the goals of [00:14:00] education happen in both spaces. I do think there is more of a personal touch, um, that happens.
On campus, in person. Um, but both are able to meet a goal. If I was a, a working professional that needed to upskill myself online, education is totally an option. It's a great option. I think that if I was an 18, 19, 20-year-old, 'cause again, you think you know everything and you don't, you may need that extra handholding of being on a campus, but I think it depends on the student's goal.
Kevin Salcido: Yeah. I'd like to build that point, . And that is, um, I think the power of online education is, it's not widely known, but. There's, uh, there are as many people with a half completed college student as there are with a completed college student. There's 35, 40 million people out there that started college and never finished.
Maybe they couldn't afford it, maybe they had family issues, maybe they just weren't ready for it. So, to me, the power of online education is that person who [00:15:00] 19 year old, because that's what society tells you if you go to college when you're 19, well, you're not ready when you're 19. And then you find yourself doing something else.
And then before you know it, you realize I really do need to have that degree. So that's where online, I think is so powerful is that it opened higher education to a lot of people who thought that maybe they weren't successful their first time through, but now because of the tools that are available, they can go back and complete their degree.
One very brief example. We had a very famous partnership with Starbucks that we announced probably eight or 10 years ago. And basically Starbucks pays your tuition to go to ASU. Most of our Starbucks scholars, students, were, I think the average profile were people in their late 20s, mostly women, working in an hourly wage job and maybe have a family, a small family home.
Those folks did not have the ability to go back for the campus experience because of where they were in life. But as a result of opening this access to a company like Starbucks and their employees, [00:16:00] we graduated thousands upon thousands of people. Not one relationship.
Angie Walker: And just building on this awesome commentary already, um, being an online, um, university, we targeted the doctoral programs. So at that point, you're, you're so focused on what you're going to do. You're like, this is my target. This is what I'm going to be. I'm going to make it work, you 50 hour a week, 60 hour a week job.
And the attrition rates are just lower because it is so focused. And so I think the timing and the career and all of that, I do think there's a very different fit of online education at the doctorate level versus the, you know, associates level for all the reasons that were mentioned here. And I think from my experience and background, what I love the most is we were able to give access.
At the doctorate level across the nation, um, that many people didn't have to do, and that was fulfilling their [00:17:00] career goals or their life goals or whatever it may be that they didn't have before because they couldn't drive two to three hours to the local university. Um, so yeah, just a little bit of a twist right there.
Derek Lundsten: Yeah, I think you've all kind of given a go ahead. 
Yuvay Ferguson: I was just saying more schools should should offer opportunities online. There's a level of privilege that goes along with being able to not work for 3, 4, however long your program is. And that is not, that should not be assumed that everybody has that same level of privilege to be able to go to school.
More, more, there should be more opportunities for online education. The goal is upscaling the goal and you can give everybody a great education online in most programs. Again, this, the idea of on campus, there is something special. But that is not the goal for most people is to come in and have fun, or party, or like, I came for a degree.
Derek Lundsten: Yeah, and you raise an interesting, all of you raise interesting points that are [00:18:00] relevant to what we hear about right now, which is this kind of matrices of, uh, we know that there's an access topic that we're hearing about. We hear a lot about the financial aspects right now. Like, there's a conversation about debt, student debt, student loans, and that, what that ratio looks like relative to, you know.
You know, post university earnings, for example, and how that takes time. And we hear a lot of families doing that analysis right now, right? I hear it more frequently than ever before, 10 years ago, right? And then going back to that, you know, that digital versus an online explorer, digital versus in person experience.
And then, Yvette, you mentioned, how do we partner with, um, Organizations, how do we partner with other employers so that because we hear a lot, you know, at least for the last few years, employers are still saying the kids, the students don't have the skills that they need to be successful in the roles, which is partly why you're having this debate about financial impact or cost versus value.
And how does that translate into ultimate success in one's job? And. career potential over time. And I think this, this conversation is becoming very dynamic right now, and schools, [00:19:00] my understanding, are having very different conversations from a, from a governance level and from a financial level themselves on how to partner with these organizations, employers, but also other, not just the business world, but other, you know, careers, healthcare and other areas require specialties and degrees.
So that's a lot of loaded kind of topics in there, but I think. I would love for the audience to hear you share your inside view or knowledge on some of these topics and where, where you see it going or how it's evolving presently. And yeah, that's a, it's a really challenging area that we're in right now, right?
Because the business models that are, the business models of universities are evolving. To be clear, right? I mean, that's a fact. So, 
Kevin Salcido: yeah. Well, I can speak from the big state school experience, and then my colleagues here have their own experiences, and that is, you know, cost has gone up. There's no doubt about it.
I think the average rack rate at a state school like ASU is probably about ten to twelve thousand dollars a year. Which sounds like a lot. I mean, it is a lot. It doesn't just sound like a lot. It is a lot. But [00:20:00] the fact is most universities in the public sector have some kind of a merit aid program or financial aid program and very few people pay that full rack rate.
Um, if you look at earnings over the career, a person with a college degree is going to make about a million and a half to two million dollars over the course of their career.
So, if you look at that context, education is not an expense, it's an investment because you get a clear, demonstrable return on the dollars that you're, that you're investing in yourself. And I guess the third thing I would say, too, is, you know, a lot of people think college is just to learn a job skill, to learn how to do this.
And we all know, we've, all of us who've been through college know that's much more than that. A college degree not only prepares you for [00:21:00] the workplace, but it prepares you to contribute to society at a higher level. Not to sound elitist, but people with college educations are less likely to engage with the criminal justice system.
They're more likely to have financial and family stability. They're more likely to be registered to vote. More likely to have a passport, and they're more likely to do things like run for political office. It's not just, I'm going to go to learn, go to college to learn how to do a vocation. It's, I'm going to learn, I'm going to go to college so I can expand my mind, learn where my passions lie, and maximize the skills that I have.
That God gave me so that it's we need to think kind of a broader of the purpose of higher education or any kind of education 
Derek Lundsten: Yeah, 
Yuvay Ferguson: people have changed People have changed in terms of what the expectation is. And I mean, generational cohorts. So, Gen Z [00:22:00] is very much, and millennials are very much like, why do I need to go to school when I can go to YouTube and watch a video of a professor lecturing and I can go to Amazon and buy a book, a textbook and kind of hand teach myself, if you will.
When we went to school, there was likely a professor who turned their back and wrote on a board and gave you an assignment and said, now go figure it out. And this group is like, Hey, salaries are not increasing. Um, is this investment worth it? You said 10, 000 a year at Arizona State. That's amazing. A lot of private schools are upwards of 50, a year.
So that's an amazing, uh, That's an amazing cause thinking about an investment, but a lot of students are choosing to go to private. And that's investment is a strong word. That is a huge investment. And so right now, I think that that's where companies who are saying that we're asking about the return, meaning students are not necessarily coming out with all the skills.
Companies really should hold themselves [00:23:00] to investing in students while they're, while they're in their preparatory stage, if you will, Starbucks giving that scholarship sounds like an amazing opportunity for them to also partner with, um, Arizona State and embed the things that they need in future workers in them while they're students.
So those things are not in alignment right now, salaries, the cost of school, and is it worth it for me to come out? With this debt. So companies, if they want to prepare college educated students, like you said, that are so beneficial to society, there's going to have to be a change and they're going to have to start embracing earlier investment.
Derek Lundsten: And to support what you were saying, Angie, I think education and healthcare, I mean, that's the two areas where we see employers increasingly right now coming towards the population and saying, we are going upscaling, cross scaling. Provide financial foundations to people's well being and their skills development, right?
That was [00:24:00] not there. I think it's really taken another level of speed over the last couple of years. And I think you're going to say something along that line, but I want to kind of call that out, but feel free to speak to that as well. 
Angie Walker: Absolutely. Um, so my point of perspective is really. Um, an economic and upskilling piece.
So in my daily life now at work, it's about how do we get special ed teachers in the door? Let's first talk about the teacher shortage. Then let's talk about the extreme shortage of special ed teachers who have to go to school longer and don't get the financial impact per se. And those teachers are paying the same amount for that degree piece of paper as is, you know, maybe someone in finance where the pay scale for those positions are start much higher, right?
And go up, right? So there's one piece of like, where's your calling, right? We can't help what we're called to do, but part two, how can we make that more affordable? And [00:25:00] It's huge in the special education and even education space of if you have someone with passion to spend time with these kids. Um, I've worked with several universities, um, and partnered with them where, you know, it's the grow your own program.
Hey, we have a paraprofessional who is showing up to work every day, uh, relates well with the students, can't afford to miss a day of work, much less afford college tuition. financial aid or not. And so we're really investing in those programs. We've had a huge success at the Austin centers where I'm at now.
High level of interest, um, excitement to start classes, excitement to finish their classes so that they can get in front of that room and teach those kids. Um, and I think we really have to be mindful of that because it, A, takes a long time when there's such a labor shortage for teachers, special ed teachers, and B, it's a huge investment and it's not all matching up right now.
Derek Lundsten: Do you have any thoughts on Everything was shared there by Angie. [00:26:00]
Yuvay Ferguson: Spot on. 
Derek Lundsten: Right on. Yeah. So, and, uh, to that, just to follow on to that, I mean, this teacher shortage, I mean, what is that, what's the underlying societal impact, like, or for that? Like, you can look at it both ways. Like, what's the cause and effect there, right?
Why is there a teacher shortage? Is it because we're, what's really driving that? And then it goes back to this, I'm looking at it from a business lens as well, which is the financial piece. We know there's an element of that, that people are looking to provide. There's a, there's that cost benefit analysis that young students are doing.
Um, and also go back to the purpose of why we're here. And to be clear, you know, physicians and nurses and other health care workers are having the same exact question right now, because the traditional way that the businesses have been run are starting to, the cost to values are starting to get out of alignment a little bit.
And so. You know, it's just, I think that's a real problem that organizations are struggling with. 
Kevin Salcido: Well, you know, now we can go down a political path and I don't want you to this. 
Derek Lundsten: Feel free, this is your own little heart. I'm just going to tell 
Kevin Salcido: [00:27:00] you, in Arizona, to be blunt, in Arizona, there seems to be a concerted effort to kill public education.
Whether it's because of things like vouchers or starving, literally starving teachers here. My daughter ASU Prep Academy. And, um, she just saw the future here, and it wasn't very bright. She moved up to Oregon, which is more, uh, you know, future friendly, and she's got an immediate increase in pay, immediate increase in benefits, and so, uh, a lot of it is really just a more complicated what part of the country you live in, uh, you know, states like the red states or whatever, they, there just seems to be this focus on choking life out of public education.
Which really mystifies me. I don't know, Dubé, Angie, what are your thoughts on it? 
Yuvay Ferguson: I 100 percent agree. I actually think that, um, K 12 teachers should make way, way more than they make. Um, especially those of us that have children [00:28:00] during the pandemic. We got to see just a snippet of what it's like to be all day teaching.
And I really, there's got to be some type of reform because the people who prepare the doctors and the engineers and those really high earning Employees of their future. Aren't getting paid well enough to actually do the preparing. So there's got to be some type of reform. There has to be more money being allotted for teaching it, whether it being education, being more affordable, more scholarships being awarded and afforded.
To those, to people who are going to be in the K 12 pipeline of teachers. But then also just thinking about salaries across the board. Salaries have not increased substantially for my students coming out of school. So I've been a professor for, I was a professor for 16 years. I saw similar ranges to even when I was a student.
So they're really, and I don't know how that happens. I mean, everything's more expensive, [00:29:00] but there's got to be some way that it's rewarded to become a K 12 teacher. They are preparing the next generation. 
Angie Walker: And I think You said about the pandemic, uh, here I am sitting at the, you know, kitchen table, which is, or the dining room table, which has then turned into the office space in the classroom.
I'm working, trying to get my organization, you know, out of the office and remain healthy. My kids didn't know how to type and they're being like on, you know, Google meetups and everything. And I would call my sister, who is a former teacher, now principal. And I was like, how do you do this? How do you teach kids?
Because I am not a teacher. And, you know, I, I have great, great, great appreciation. For our teachers who are on the front line, and if we dial back 50 years, even teachers in the community were well respected, decently paid, appreciated for their time and commitment in the classroom and in the community outside of the [00:30:00] classroom.
And now. Through society, the teachers, K 12 specifically, I'll say is, um, you know, they're kind of getting the, the rough end of the deal. They're kind of getting beat up. They're not supported by their government. They're not supported by their communities. They're not supported by the parents of the students in whom they are teaching.
And so how attractive is that career in some places? And I think we need to change our mentality on that because whether it's the K through 12 teaching environment, right? Those teachers go on to get their degrees, go into higher ed. Like this is. This is a continuum. It's not just, you know, start at one level and stop there.
There needs to be some improvement. And, and Kevin, to, to what you said, like you don't want to involve politics. I find it hard to not have some political conversation along with the education, um, discussion because every four to eight years, there's different influence on how we're able to handle things and how the budgets are, are being handled.
So it's, it's a huge piece. I think we could all get on our soapboxes on that one for a few hours. 
Kevin Salcido: [00:31:00] Well, When we had to shift to online learning in K 12 or all the way through higher ed, you had some public school kids who were attending school from their family's second home, 
right? 
In the mountains or at the beach.
And you had some public school kids who were going to McDonald's to get a Wi Fi signal. 
So, 
you know, it revealed a great disparity between, uh, how people experience education because of their economic situation. 
Derek Lundsten: Right. 
Kevin Salcido: The people who have money and, you know, were able to attend school from their parents beach house, they're always going to succeed.
The kid who's going to McDonald's to get a Wi Fi signal is going to have to work three times as hard. And, uh, you're just, you're just seeing that those are the kids at the lower end of the spectrum. Those are the ones that are having the hardest time getting caught up right now. So, it did have a positive effect as far as that goes.[00:32:00]
Derek Lundsten: Yeah, and I think that, that's an interesting point. Kind of line there, Kevin, into the world that we're talking about truly getting into inclusion, right? Not with inclusion within the economic system, within the educational system, within the workplace system, right? I know we're talking in the green room, uh, UVA, obviously, Howard is very involved in this space.
If you want to kind of share a little bit on that topic. I think this has been, we're seeing it at all levels of society, right? From, from the business and corporate interest interest to higher education institutions to K through 12 institutions to how that affects community. Like this is a, this is a real.
This is a real complex problem, multi stakeholder problem, and it's frankly, we need to get on it now because it's a generational problem, um, if we don't, if we don't move sooner than later on this, right? It's just my personal view on it. Um, but I would love, I mean, again, you all are in this environment. I can, I would, I'll share it at some point in the conversation, a personal lens from a parental lens, because I'm, Just beginning the school journey, but I want to [00:33:00] give it back to you all for a moment, um, on this topic.
Yuvay Ferguson: I was really proud of companies. I was really proud of companies that found their humanity, um, in 2020, um, investing in students laptops and Wi Fi hotspots. And, you know, I, I was hoping that we would stay there because again, I felt like so many companies were willing to step up and have a heart, you know, be revolutionary and, and give back.
To the people. And like you said, I had students that I had to, I was an, I was an administrator at the time. I had to make sure that faculty members, again, understood that everybody's situation was different, that many of us as professors are somewhat privileged. And we had Wi Fi in our homes. We emptied the campuses and our students, some of them, you know, had to go back to places that weren't even really home for them.
And like, maybe they were. Words of the state before they graduated from high school and, you know, they went back to place. Everybody had to go somewhere. [00:34:00] We had students taking calls from their bathroom because it was the only place that was private, or they had to switch off of calls earlier because they needed their laptop for maybe a younger child in the home that needed to get on zoom for an hour.
So, you know, just I love that companies were willing to find their humanity in that space. They were giving a lot of donations and a lot of their time, money and effort. Um, many schools got, uh, grants and, and awards to be able to do things that impacted the growth and the, this, uh, actual access that many students had.
I hope that we get back to that. Many companies have dialed back a lot of that. Um, that heart that they were showing, but I hope that it comes back. I hope that we find our humanity again. 
Angie Walker: I think the pandemic, um, didn't, didn't enjoy it. 
Didn't enjoy living through it, but did love seeing the change in organizations, understanding and supporting mental health.
That was one of the biggest [00:35:00] pieces, you know, being in HR for 20 plus years and, um, I'll use this example, not to offend anybody, but it was just something that we, we, um, found in our organization, but it was like mentioning pre pandemic. Someone has anxiety. It was like, Ooh, how do we handle that? And then, Pandemic Hits, therapists are booked for months out, can't get in, the prescriptions for depression and anti anxiety medication skyrocketed, and organizations, HR departments, then became responsible for providing mental health resources to their employees.
And it became a requirement. And I love that the organization that I was with. Um, provided multiple resources, multiple areas, online resources. Lyra was a great resource for us. There's many others out there, um, to provide these. Yep. Yep, exactly. LifeGuides, uh, to provide those resources, you know, you know, a phone call or maybe 24 hours away.
And I love that. And, [00:36:00] um, the organization I was with continued that and continue to support people. Uh, we were remote, or we were in the office before the pandemic, um, obviously decided to go fully remote, you know, maybe six months in. We, we already were one foot in the remote, you know, arena anyway. Um, But I love that piece.
The other piece is the humanization of employees. So it used to be like, I know I, I even had said this earlier in my career, check your problems at the door. You're here to work, be a robot and you know, don't let any other influences happen. The pandemic then revealed that we have animals that bark when the doorbell rings
We have children that may not understand that now is not the best time to come up and need my attention, while I'm on a Zoom call. Um, and then it evolved to, you know what, let me say hi to your kids. And, and I even know my kids. They would come, you know, around here and they would see my coworkers and my coworkers would know their names and would be able to say hi to them and they would have a nice little [00:37:00] conversation.
And it was a beautiful. Marrying of my work life and my home life that also made the extra hours and the perceived I'm never done working because I'm always on, um, more acceptable. And I like that. 
Derek Lundsten: Well said. 
So shifting gears for just a second along that shifting so much as moving along that line, um, putting on you, cause each of you has an administrative role as well.
And he's from a VP of HR standpoint, you know, about humanizing employees like that. When you think about that and the world of. Because we've been talking about the economics, but you gave a comment earlier, Kevin, about the role of education is to inspire people's curiosity, their desire to learn, their desire to expand their horizons, to give them access to new opportunities and seeing the world, to build their purpose, to pursue their passions.
Like, how do we hire? How do we, how do we infuse that with our hiring principles and develop our teachers and academic administrators and others to, to fulfill on that? [00:38:00] Mission, right? Beyond because there's obviously the financial piece, but that's still has to be the core driver of what we're doing. And how have you kind of seen that evolve over the last couple of years now?
And I should say more so, how is it evolving now in the present, after the last couple of years, relative to this particular issue? We're talking about this competing aspects of the financial and business interest and driver institutions versus the ultimate purpose and reason why institutions exist. And how do we reconcile that?
And what do you, what are you seeing leaders and even yourselves do in this respect? 
Yuvay Ferguson: I don't think they're actually competing ideas. I think that companies have to realize that investing in people is going to affect the bottom line, hands down. So the opportunity to invest in opportunities and resources for your employees, whether it be LifeGuides, whether it be opportunities for education, whether it's them actually, uh, sponsoring activities.
Um, on campuses, whether it's learning and development and [00:39:00] trainings for their employees. Those things don't seem competing to me. I think that the world has changed, but companies, if they want to be business focused and make money, you have to keep people happy, well, and sane, I guess is the other word I would throw in there.
And if anything, the pandemic highlighted that. You want, you want a well workforce. There are things that companies are going to have to shift their priorities in terms of dollars towards. 
Kevin Salcido: Yeah, I think certain, and I, I think 5, 7, 8, 10 years, we've had this ethos that, you know, we've talked about already, is higher education worth it?
We've talked about the politics, there's big groups of people out there that just flat think college is not worth it. That, you know, higher ed just grows communists and, you know, transgender people and blah, blah, blah. That BS that we have to hear all day from certain parts of the, of the organization of our society.
I think it's incumbent upon leaders in higher education. Like [00:40:00] Dr. Crowe, Michael Crowe, the person I mentioned earlier. He stopped being a punching bag, not like Dr. Crowe was, he was not. But there's a lot of leadership, they're just like taking income. You know, how much, how much incoming is somebody going to take before they're going to turn around and throw a stake in the ground and start pushing back?
Yeah. I think we're in a mode now where we're seeing university presidents parse words so they don't lose their jobs. We saw that with the famous dust up about three or four months ago. So, uh Issues pertain to the Palestinian Israeli conflict is, leaders need to stop parsing words, need to stop being political, and need to stop being all things to all the people, and start telling the truth about the value proposition in higher education.
You know, stop, stop being a punching bag. You know, get out there and defend your industry. Get out there and defend the college experience. Get out there and defend your university. I think there's a certain timidity. [00:41:00] Here that I've been a little bit disconcerted, but I don't think the leaders and more traditional public settings would kind of take that abuse.
Or, I don't know if abuse is the right word, but it's almost like, okay, just sit here and tee off on me and I'll take it. Do you have any comments on that? 
Yuvay Ferguson: I 100 percent agree. I think that that's 1 of the things that you made me think about was the 10 year process. So, the reason why 10 year was even created at the college level was so that professors could actually teach their discipline without the fear of retaliation from companies.
So, for example, if I was teaching advertising, and I wanted to talk about, um, You know, that there were advertisements for malt liquor placed strategically in black communities, and maybe there was a company that was a sponsor of or donor to the school that I would get fired. So I can conduct research without fear of retaliation.
I do think that academia is going to have to figure out some ways to make sure that, um, [00:42:00] leadership is not necessarily bought. But I, again, I think this is an opportunity for companies to do good and invest in a very ethical and strategic way. Not in a way to influence. Uh, leadership in terms of you can't say anything because it's offending me personally.
I think that there's got to be a way for leaders in education to be able to lead for the best way for the best system for students, but also companies using that money to invest in students so that they're that they're having access to the actual technology, which is changing so much in the classroom.
A professor likely got their future. Their Ph. D. or their degree or their professional experience long before they were actually in the classroom, right? The world is changing so much that it may be and is likely outdated. This is where companies are going to have to figure out a way to be ethical and strategic and investing and not in a way that stops the system of management of the college.[00:43:00]
Angie Walker: There's a DEI curve here that I opened you. It's so dang true, but I won't take us down that path. I'll, I'll keep Derek said, go for it. Go for it. Yeah, I, you know, I, I mean, we, we know that many DEI attempts fail, um, for various reasons, you know, people don't agree with having, um, more broader thoughts and opinions.
They feel like they're being forced to look at things a certain way. Um, you know, we all have our own, you know, own, own backgrounds, but until we can kind of make it a safe environment as well, to just accept those, you know, you're, you're coming up on many different things. And I operate personally and professionally.
If you're doing the right thing, and not everybody agrees what the right thing is, but if you're doing the right thing, usually you're headed in the right direction. Absolutely. 
Derek Lundsten: So, agree, fundamentally, and this is part of, you know, you raised this comment, I mean, I believe institutions of education are.
Kind of beacons of [00:44:00] what truth should be, right? And there's many forms of different truths and facts and how we interpret that. And they also should be places of opening of dialogue, right? That's the place where we are helping to teach students to have a voice. Respectful conversations of differences of opinions, a difference of fact, to get to truth, to talk to, to, you know, to have argue with integrity, not, not argue, but to debate with integrity and to move things forward.
Right. I feel like that is, it seems like at least societally we hear that's a skill we're losing. We hear about this all the time and we see this in our political, back to your point, Kevin, constructs of what's happening right now. It's like, how do we, in our environmental, you know, our university and, uh, K 12 environments cultivate that.
Where students do have a voice, they can feel safe to express themselves, we can talk about different ideas, and we don't retreat into, you know, it's that person or that group or that idea, like, how do we truly, I mean, to your point about D& I, it's not, it's because it's not a tactic, it's a way of being, we have to foster, true [00:45:00] inclusion is where we bring everyone together to talk about this stuff, right?
It's not a matter, it's not a program, right? Right. Right. Right. It's a, it's a way we live and it's a way we respect each other. It's the way we talk with each other, the way we invite each other. Right. That's, that's, and we need schools to be bringing that to the forefront. Otherwise, we're, you know, we're, to your point about TikTok and others, we're, my belief is we're just, you know, shutting down and that we see that happening right now.
And it's, I think it's working against us. 
Kevin Salcido: I think part of, you know, yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt. No, please go ahead. Yeah, what you're seeing in higher education, what you're seeing, I think, in society as a whole is people are reacting to the extremes on both sides, you know, let's be honest, there's a lot of silliness on the far left, and there's a lot of silliness on the far right, but you know what, you're talking about 10 percent of the people on either side, and the other 80 percent of us are sitting here saying, how did we get stuck in this discussion, you know, how did we get to this stupid place where we can't even get exchange an idea because somebody here is going to [00:46:00] accuse us of being a communist and somebody over here is going to accuse us of not being, you know, politically correct or whatever.
And we just need to drop that somehow because it's impacting how we engage with each other on college campuses. It's impacting how we engage, engage with each other in political. It's impacting our personal friendships, right? You know, so like, you know, it's, we just have to get, we just have to stop listening to the people who are shouting the loudest.
On both sides, and just come back to some common sense. Let's get back to facts. Let's get back to, uh, you know, empathy. Let's get back to, uh, a sense of, let's get past this, let's move forward. And I, I think, like I said earlier about, and I, too many college leaders trying to be all things to all people. All you're doing is twisting yourself into a pretzel.
So I think, you know, speak from a position of principle. And, uh, listen [00:47:00] to others, uh, engage different point of views, but boy, if you start to please or try to please everybody, you're, you're, you're not going to be very successful. 
Angie Walker: You know, I, I fully agree that universities tend to be more accepting and open to a lot of those things, right?
Because that's all of their students. That's where, you know, the, the tuition is being paid by. However, we have our college grads graduating and going into organizations. That don't have that thought. Then there's that dose of reality that, you know, organizations do need to catch up to, you know, where maybe some of the, you know, educational institutions aren't accepting and making sure that their students feel like they 
Yuvay Ferguson: belong there.
And to jump in, uh, this, this generation that's coming into the workforce, Gen Z, they would rather live in their parents basement than to take a job that is not in value alignment. They don't care what your salary, uh, offer is. So, companies are going to have to, and as much as everybody, and people thought this with Millennials, they were like, oh, we're just going to [00:48:00] ignore them.
Well, now Millennials are the largest, piece of the workforce. And you can't ignore us. Millennials are driving the wanting to be remote or wanting to have hybrid options. And companies are going to have to tackle with that, um, or going to have to battle with that. And I think the same thing is going to be true with Gen Z.
They're going to come in or not come in. They would, again, They have parents who have a little bit more income and they're willing to not go to work. So if companies want to have this next wave of top talent, they're going to have to find value alignment. And it doesn't mean changing your personal values, but it means creating an environment of belonging where people are just allowed to be, allowed to feel safe.
Derek Lundsten: So, I agree, and this is, I would throw the polarizing topic in as a kind of a closing question. It was the one we all kind of debated a little bit beforehand. So, yes, I agree completely. We're going to have to continue to evolve and reach towards one another to solve these problems. 
Uh, there's a new technology that's coming by storm right now.
It's in every press release and article and book and story right now called artificial intelligence. [00:49:00] It's we read all about it and how it's affecting. People's student, the writing, there's a complicated plagiarism. There's a whole debate around creative ownership and art and all these different pieces.
Uh, you know, companies we hear are going to start using that as a way to counteract this worker shortage and these different things. I mean, at the same time, you know, I know There's other organized entities like SHRM and others that believe that AI and human capabilities collaborating is the future. It is the fundamental basis for how we make quantum leaps in our potential and progress together.
So, where do you all personally kind of view or land on that? You don't need to be experts in the topic, but what's your kind of initial thoughts or feelings towards this debate and what you're seeing and hearing from your colleagues and peers and friends and family in this respect? 
Yuvay Ferguson: I love it. I think AI is really just the next generation of search right now, and I know it can evolve, but it's okay for how we get information to change.
Do you remember learning the Dewey [00:50:00] Decimal System when you were younger? And has the world changed? I'm 
Derek Lundsten: also an old ass millennial, yes, I remember that. Right, I'm 
Yuvay Ferguson: an old ass millennial, and like, I learned the Dewey Decimal System, and I couldn't, like, I don't use it anymore. Why? Because I have Google. I remember I had a faculty member that was like, you guys just Google everything.
Yeah. So, and it's okay. The world did not end. I love the idea of students using things like ChatGPT. It's more of a study buddy. I think that professors are going to have to not just re, reuse their I think that You know, they're going to have to regenerate ideas and come up with new projects and you can't recycle and reuse things that you've used before, but you can ask students to you to even write a paper and you can help.
You can encourage them to use chat GPT as a study buddy. Imagine if you were able to ask a student, another classmate a question like, well, what do you think of this and encourage them to rewrite it? Because they're going to have to understand. What it is that they've written. And I do things like I'll hide little, I'll hide like in white [00:51:00] writing, I'll hide something in a prompt.
So if you just copied and pasted, put it in chat GPT, copied and pasted and put it back, put it back, and it was a, I mean, it was supposed to be a paper about advertising, and I wrote the word monkey in small writing and in white. And there's something about monkey in it. You didn't even try to read it. So there's things that faculty can do to, you know, you can throw a little Easter eggs in there, but I think it's a great thing.
Kevin Salcido: Well, if you look at, 
Yuvay Ferguson: go ahead, Kevin. 
Kevin Salcido: Well, you know, AI is basically asking a machine to do something that typically requires a few minutes. That's really what comes down to it's ai, whether it's however you define it. It's asking a machine, a computer to do something. That typically requires human intelligence.
If you look back in the history of mankind, there's always been technology that shifts the workplace, shifts society. Go back to the cotton gin, right? Uh, it didn't [00:52:00] replace human intelligence, but it replaced human labor, and it set the course of economics in a different way. And we come up with 10, 000 examples of a machine replacing human inputs.
And, uh, now it's instead of Replacing people's hands with machines, we're replacing people's thoughts with machines. So, it can be kind of scary, but I think we just need to treat this like any other technology wave that we've seen prior. I've discussed in that is, okay, well, how can we make this work for us?
How can we mitigate the impacts on others? Because there will be impacts on others, and that's when we go to our change in management toolkit to get our organizations through the whole spectrum of change. So, I think fighting it is a mistake. I think being fearful of it is a mistake, especially generative AI, you mentioned that.
Uh, chat GPT to help people with a paper or create a, uh, you know, uh, a visual of some kind, but it's another wave of [00:53:00] technology and I think we can adapt to it. I don't know what's gonna kill us. I have don't know much about it. I do know that. We've had some kinds of AI around for years. I mean, you mentioned recruitment and selection.
Back, back in the 90s, there were software that would go through your resume and pick out keywords and advance you down. That's artificial intelligence. You know, airliners have been able to take off and land by themselves for two decades. That's artificial intelligence. So, uh, I think we just need to kind of sit back and understand what it really means and how we can.
Angie Walker: I agree with, you know, we have to embrace it. I think it's how and what do we do with it is really my cornerstone. Love that as a, as a leader, I don't have to start with a blank page for communication. I can. Type a few notes in and get it started and then start editing, right? Like, that's a major time saver.
I think, you know, in education for teachers and for students, there's [00:54:00] productivity gains and times for teachers. A lot of assignments are online, they're auto corrected for students, and, you know, they're learning and then the course is adaptive to where their strengths and weaknesses are. I think that's huge, right?
Because not everybody learns at the same pace at the same time. Um, I think there's some downfalls, especially in leadership though, um, where performance evaluations are being written and they copy paste, like you were talking about. And then the employee is like, this doesn't apply to me. It's, it, it, these are words on paper.
This doesn't talk about my performance, my experience here. And, you know, I've, I've had to encounter some, you know, of those challenging conversations between the leaders and the employee about. You know, performance evaluation that they don't feel was relative to them. And let's go back to the generational piece of like, our employees want feedback.
Um, you know, it's not the once a year performance evaluation. It's the ongoing feedback. And I think we need to monitor that, um, just for, you know, some of those reasons. A [00:55:00] lot of really positive pieces, but I think we just have to be aware of the nuances and. Balance that as best we can. 
Kevin Salcido: Yeah. And you know, I think we, we, we can never lose the human touch in any kind of a transaction.
I mean, we're seeing AI chatbots. Have you ever had to engage with a chatbot? That's not the best, that's not the best experience because you'd still want to talk to a human being, whether it's with a cable company or with your professor who's teaching finance. You still want to engage with the human touch.
So, uh, I, I don't think this thing is going to really work. Get it to the point where we don't, we don't interact with humans. We need to remember that people still want community. They still want human touch. 
Derek Lundsten: We completely agree philosophically with what we're doing here. 
And personally, I just want to say again, thank you to for each of you spending your time and sharing your heart and expertise.
This has been a fascinating and wide ranging conversation. We meandered all sorts of different ways, which you can just indulging [00:56:00] different curiosities and ideas, uh, which was fun. And I hope we can do it again and, uh, thank you just for being in the world and the work that you're doing. And I'm pleased to know that you all are influencing the leaders and the students and families of today and tomorrow.
So, um, grateful for your support here and welcome officially to the Rebels With A Heart community. And I'm here to support you all in your pursuits as well. So thank you everyone. 
Kevin Salcido: Thanks again for the invite. Angie and Yuvay, it was a pleasure meeting you. 
Yuvay Ferguson: Absolutely. Thank you. It was so nice talking with you both in three.
Sorry, you all, all of us.