Creating a Sonic Identity: Tony Hoffer's Approach to Production

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I basically brought a crate of records down to the studio. I played



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something for Beck off a Bony M record. I grabbed a little



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loop of that, like, a little bit of that. It's kind of a little drum



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thing. Looped it up, and then we just started building on



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that. That's seven time Grammy nominator, producer, and mixer Tony Hoffer. Tony's



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discography is full of records that have likely been sonic and musical



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influences for so many of us. We're talking about stuff like Phoenix,



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Alphabetical, M 83, hurry up, we're dreaming kooks inside in,



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inside out, and Beck, midnight Vultures. As somebody that works with bands live



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in the studio, Tony knows how to keep momentum going. And then. So I'm



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pushing everybody. I'm pushing myself. I'm pushing



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just the whole team, the artists, everyone, to just like, let's keep



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moving, let's keep the momentum. And I think by having that target. Tony tells us



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how he's always on the artist side and always working to bring



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their vision to life. And I'm asking myself, well, what is the sonic identity of



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this thing? We're. If you can't answer that, then we're not there. And part of



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facilitating that vision is giving every idea a chance and exploring



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every option. The only way to do that, if. There'S certain sounds that you like,



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you need to know how to either create them quickly or find where they are.



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If you've saved them or if it's a preset or whatever it is, you just



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need to know how to get to stuff quickly. So this one's a masterclass in



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everything from production to distortion. So stick around for my interview with Tony



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Hoffer.



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I was listening to a lot of your catalog this morning, kind of revisiting a



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lot of records that I listen to so much. So I know you've had a



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huge influence on so many producers and musicians out there,



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but I'm curious to know, is there a project or an album that you



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did that you think shaped you the most or helped you get on the path



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that you are on now? A project that I did, I would



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say, probably would have been back midnight vultures,



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because that was sort of the first big milestone for



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me, the first time I'd worked with a well



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known artist, and the first project that came



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out on a major label, and I knew people would be, some



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people would hopefully hear the record, but I would say that project in particular,



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that album in particular, was kind of a catalyst



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for how I ended up doing a lot of things, even to this day, just



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in terms of production, what takes to choose



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how far to go in terms of getting things



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precise or not precise or leaving things a little



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loose, whatever. That established a lot of things for



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me. Yeah, it was amazing working with Beck and everybody that



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was around all the musicians at that time. So, yeah,



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I would say probably that album, but the reality is they're all.



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I've been doing this for a number of years now, but even records that



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I'm currently doing, I'm still finding new ways of doing things



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as a producer and as a mixer and engineer.



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The hunt is always on to find a new



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way of presenting a synth or a guitar



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tone or whatever, just to kind of bring something new



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to the space. I'm always



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finding inspiration with pretty much every project that I do because the



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reality is, whatever I did on the last project that I did,



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it's guaranteed not to work on this



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next project. Totally. So you're constantly having to



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find new things, but a lot of the framework, I'd say,



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would have come from that first big project that I did with Beck. Yeah,



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that record. I was just listening to that one the most this morning because I



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haven't listened to it in a while, and I was going to ask you about



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it later. The way the mix is and the way you guys put it together



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is so cool. That first track is so mono, but the things that



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are on the sides really catch you. I just think there's a lot of really



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deliberate choices that are really dope. Was that something that you guys were talking about?



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Were you making that record like, hey, we're going to do this. Let's fucking go



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for it. Let's leave safe on the edge



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and make what we think is cool. It was definitely, let's



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make something that we think is cool. Yeah, we wanted to



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make something. The spirit of that project was, we're



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going to go on an adventure making something that hasn't been made before.



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For Beck, I mean, I think pretty much all of his albums are that really.



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Yeah. But this one in particular, we were going pretty deep because we weren't working



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in a traditional studio. We were working in a studio in



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Beck's house. So we had a lot of freedom and a lot of time. Maybe



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too much time, actually. But it definitely allowed us to



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experiment and try different iterations of



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songs, and it allowed us to be very creative and to



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make mistakes and try things. Some things would work, some



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things not, but it was good. When you say.



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Because I hear people say stuff like this all the time, you set out to



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make something that hadn't been made before. What's a conversation like that with an



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artist when you're about to go into pre production and everybody wants



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to just kind of change the game, how do you even approach that? It feels



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so daunting just to say, we're going to do this. It's hard to



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say we're going to make something that's never been made before, and this is how



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we're going to do it. You kind of have to just start throwing things at



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the wall, which is pretty much what we did. How I started with that project,



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I basically brought a crate of records down to the studio, and then



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I played something for Beck off a bony M record,



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and it sounded cool, so I grabbed a little loop of that, like a little



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bit of that. It's kind of a little drum thing, looped it up, and then



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we just started building on that. And I think just by nature



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of the choices that we made, not trying to do things that



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we've heard before, I think true north was that let's just make



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something we haven't heard before. So when it came time to doing a guitar part



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or whatever, let's find a tone that we haven't



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really heard before. Yeah. Or something that's



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played, in a way, an approach that we haven't heard before



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with this type of tone, with juxtapose with this type of



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rhythm, drumbeat and loop or whatever. So



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I think it was kind of a bit by bit sort of record,



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and one thing at a time and whatever



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the last thing was that we put on there, we knew that we wanted to



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do something else that would keep it veering in these different



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directions, and then hopefully we would end up in the destination



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that was the right place to be. Yeah, totally. It's



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interesting because this opening little bit kind of segues so many of the questions that



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I had. Let's go, sonic identity for a minute. I think people that are familiar



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with your work could probably pick out a record that you did out of a



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lineup. Like you kind of have a thing. Is that kind of from this



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commitment of just doing what you like, or do you think it's shaped over



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time where you kind of have grabbed things that work



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and don't work and catalog them all? The sonic



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identity, for me is such an important thing



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that I'm just always trying to find what? And I'm asking



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myself, well, what is the sonic identity of this thing we're doing? What is



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it? And if it's. If I can't answer that, then we're not there. We've



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got to keep going. And I think a lot of that growing up, I listened



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to a lot of music, and I still do, and have a real good



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knowledge of music. Maybe I could be a music



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historian for certain things. I'm quite knowledgeable,



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but it's been really helpful for me over the years to



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be able to just have this catalog in my



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head of different reverbs that were cool in



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different instances of songs that I liked. Or



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somehow a certain song evoked a



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certain feeling or an energy or an atmosphere or whatever,



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and that could be cool on this song to give it some kind



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of a twist or a new thing. I feel like I have a lot of



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tools buried in my head, just from the



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years as a kid, as a teenager, as a young adult,



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as an adult, grown up, whatever, listening to all kinds of



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music and having a good understanding of how it was made and



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created. So, yeah, I hope that answers the



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question. Yeah, no, it totally does. Some people do this and



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some people don't sit down with the artists, like, mid session and just play them



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something, see how they react. Like, hey, what do you think of this thing from



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the 70s that I love? Do you pull anything out of this you want to



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put in here? For sure, yeah, I'll reference things all the time, because



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sometimes it's hard to say, well, I'd like to do this. It's going to be



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kind of this meets that. It seems very arbitrary, and it probably



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doesn't make sense because it probably hasn't been done before. Well, there's two



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things. One way would be to show the references. It'd be kind of like this.



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The chorus of this, the way the reverb or whatever it is,



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with snare of that. Or if we can work



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fast. I try to work fast. So let's just do it



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quickly, and then we can talk about it. Which is probably the best



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way. But, yeah, it could be so hard. The way that everybody describes music,



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it's like what you say and what the lead singer of the



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band translates that as. Could be totally unrelated. That's why



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being able to do it quick is probably definitely the way to go. Yeah.



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Because then you see, like, okay, it works, or it doesn't work. Do you



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feel like we're kind of getting into production already? Do you feel like every



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idea should get chased in the studio? If the bass player



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has an idea and it's doable quick, does everybody get a shot to



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kind of try something? I mean, I try to do that, especially if they're good



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ideas. Obviously, I'm coming with a lot of ideas, but I



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definitely do want the artists to have input and to



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bring their ideas, because often a lot of their ideas are really good,



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and even the wackier ones have many



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times been amazing. Yeah. So I definitely



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welcome ideas from everyone. Everyone that's part



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of the group that I'm working with. Whether we get to all of them,



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there might be some where you can kind of tell



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it's probably not the right thing. It's probably not the



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right thing, and it probably would take a long time to



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try, and so you'll have to kind of whittle them



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down to the best. And we'd have a discussion on the



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consensus of what everyone thinks. All right, we've got three ideas, a, b, and



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c. We can do one. What's everyone feeling? And everyone's



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feeling b. So that's what we're going to spend the next couple of hours doing,



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then focusing on b. Yeah. What I wanted to talk about



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mostly, or a fair bit with you is producing bands.



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We're basically there. Right. What's your approach to kind of taking,



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like, a really great live band that everybody



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loves and then translating that into a record that



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is a new experience or a different experience for the listener? I mean, obviously the



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record is going to be more produced, but how do you make sure that you



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retain what everybody loved when they signed that band or why everybody



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went to the show and you put that into a record? When I'm working with



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an artist, I'm always looking for the strengths. So if that's one of



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the strengths, the live show, let's say, and clearly everyone's liking



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the live show, then I would definitely factor that into



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how I'm doing things in the studio. So that



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may determine whether we use a click or not. Like, if they're not using



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a click live, I would assess what's happening live. I



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would try to get a good understanding of what's happening live. I would try to



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see them in person if they were on tour, if it's possible to do



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that. Sometimes it's not because they're not playing, but at the very least, I would



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do some kind of rehearsal with them in a rehearsal room, and I would be



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there right in front of them watching them live. But, yeah, I would try



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to distill down what is the



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thing that makes this so great. And I would definitely try to keep all of



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those great points in by the time we get to the studio.



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So that if that is a thing and if it's a big strength where



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there's sort of a cool attitude or that the songs have a bit more of



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an edge, or there's sort of a freeness to the



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songs that maybe they wouldn't have



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if they're chained to a click or things



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are too clean in the studio or whatever. I'd



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be very mindful of that to make sure that that doesn't happen where things



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are boring, they're not too clean, or they're too clean,



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and then it's a big surprise for everybody, so I wouldn't want that to happen.



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Yeah. Do you ever find that when you



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identify what you think that special piece of an artist is, do you find that



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generally the artist is unaware of that? I feel like some people are



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like, when they're doing their own thing, they're unaware of what is actually connecting



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with the audience. Do you find that to be the



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case? Yeah, I would say most of the time, but then



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sometimes there's artists that I work with that definitely have. They're very



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intuitive as to what they're tapped in. Yeah.



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People need and want from them as an artist, but, yeah. Does it



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matter whether you're in touch with that? I don't know if it matters.



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On one hand, if I were an artist, I suppose it'd be



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helpful if you really were dialed in with your fans. It probably would be a



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good thing, I would say, because then you would. Know it's probably true.



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But then, at the same time, you have to make the music.



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You have to be evolving. You can't



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be thinking, oh, well, my fans aren't going to like this because then



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I feel like that'd be a little restrictive. But I think just having a good



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understanding of what your fans want, as long as it's not



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limiting what you do. I like to talk about managing



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expectations and how you can use expectations to



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fulfill somebody or totally blow their mind when they're like, they



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expect this and you're like, no, that's not what we're doing today. I think that's



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a pretty powerful tool when it comes to mixing or producing or anything.



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Yeah. So along the lines of managing expectations,



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how do you handle? Because we both know making a record can take weeks and



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weeks and weeks. Personalities in the room, momentum



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slowdowns, maybe creativity slumps on week



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four. What are some of the things that you do during a month



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long session that kind of just keeps the band excited,



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fresh, moving forward? Well,



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I have targets every day, and I usually figure those targets



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out. There'll be kind of an overall target where I need to get this done



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by x date. Then there'll be daily



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targets where the target is to get the



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majority of this song tracked, the music part of it



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tracked, maybe even get a vocal. And that's



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a target that I'll set in a way for myself.



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So I may or may not discuss that target with the



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artist, but it causes me to push



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to where we stay on target to get what we



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need to get done by 10:00 or whatever. By the



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end of the day, usually we hit the target or go beyond



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it. We'll get the majority of the song done, if not the whole song, and



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get it in a good place where then we can hear it the next morning



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and have some good perspective to have a fresh listen, and



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then we can do some additional bits to it and then



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get on to another one and keep going. And I think by doing that, by



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having clear targets, and usually I'll establish maybe the night



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before or the morning of, I might mention something like, hey, I'd like to dig



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into this song, song x. I'd like to dig into that



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and get pretty deep with it. The morning



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before, I'll wake up, have breakfast, I'll be listening to things.



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I'll make some sort of decision, like, okay, I feel like we can



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get everything, all instruments up to blah, blah, blah, done,



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and then that'll be my target. And then, so I'm pushing everybody. I'm pushing



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myself. I'm pushing just the whole team, the artists,



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everyone, to just like, let's keep moving. Let's keep the momentum. And I think by



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having that target, it causes us to not have



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slumps and get too fixated



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on minutiae that is really



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insignificant to the target. Some things we can come



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back to. Yeah, there's some things where if I feel like



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we're getting bogged down and it's possible to come back to it



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later on, almost just like, let's just step out of that, focus our



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attention on something else, and then get back moving,



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and then we can revisit that later in the day or the next day, and



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it'd be a much quicker cycle to do that. Very



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cool. So is that a pretty average pace for you, songish a



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day, when you're working? I guess it depends on the artist. Yeah, it depends on



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the artist, but, yeah, I would say song a day for the



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main stuff, and then usually the kind of



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fun, tweaky stuff, the overdub stuff, that could take



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a half day. Again, it depends on what we're talking about



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here. Like, the type of music we're doing, can the artists work



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at a pace like that? Some can, some not. And that's fine,



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too sometimes for the more electronic leaning



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projects that I do. Sometimes a song a day is not realistic because



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there's so much sound design and just



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building kind of the sonic world of the thing and so it



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takes a bit longer. Yeah, but if it's a band



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and everyone's focused, yeah, we can get a lot done in a



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day. A lot of people, they'll start a record and



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they'll do. This week we're doing drums. But I feel like the way that you're



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talking, the going the song by song approach, I feel like that probably allows



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each song to be the character of that song. Is that part of the reason



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you do it so that like, hey, the drums have to be like this for



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this song? Because I feel like if you just did drums to a couple of



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demo guitars and some clicks and stuff like that, you might have a



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cohesiveness that is wrong. You know what I mean? Yeah,



Speaker:
00:17:40
I've done that before because I've had to, for whatever reason, we were in



Speaker:
00:17:43
situations where we had to hire, bring in a session drummer and we



Speaker:
00:17:47
only had this person for two days, so I don't love that.



Speaker:
00:17:51
But 99% of what I do, yeah, I'm doing it song by



Speaker:
00:17:55
song so I can set everything up to be



Speaker:
00:17:58
based around that song and it's custom



Speaker:
00:18:02
for that song. I don't like doing a week of drums and then a week



Speaker:
00:18:05
of bass and then a week of guitars for two weeks and synths for



Speaker:
00:18:09
a week. Whatever. I like doing it song by



Speaker:
00:18:13
song. I like getting vocals done sooner than



Speaker:
00:18:16
later. The vocals are obviously a very important piece of the



Speaker:
00:18:20
puzzle. So I like getting vocals done on the



Speaker:
00:18:23
earlier side of whatever time we have. Just so I know we've got some



Speaker:
00:18:27
extra time in case we need to go back and do another



Speaker:
00:18:31
pass at something or drop in on some bits. Maybe



Speaker:
00:18:35
some lyrics change after living with it, I don't know, but I like



Speaker:
00:18:39
having a little bit of time. I don't like saving vocals to the very end.



Speaker:
00:18:42
Well, it keeps everybody engaged, too. It's like if you're just doing drums for a



Speaker:
00:18:45
week, you know, the bass player is just not coming in for a week and



Speaker:
00:18:49
then he's going to have a problem with some fill.



Speaker:
00:18:53
You mentioned sound design and electronic records taking a little bit



Speaker:
00:18:56
longer. Do you have any tips for producers on just knowing



Speaker:
00:19:00
your sample library, knowing your record collection, how you organize



Speaker:
00:19:04
things, anything to help, like a young kid just work faster when he's



Speaker:
00:19:07
shaping tones. Yeah, I mean, to work fast, you definitely need to



Speaker:
00:19:11
know your tools and you've got to put the time



Speaker:
00:19:15
in. I've put a lot of time in on my own. Before I



Speaker:
00:19:18
started doing big projects that people know about. I spent



Speaker:
00:19:22
years of doing lots of unknown stuff and



Speaker:
00:19:26
my own stuff. And with that, learning my favorite



Speaker:
00:19:30
samples, or being able to work fast with the



Speaker:
00:19:33
computer, or be able to mic something quickly, or if



Speaker:
00:19:37
something's wrong with the sound of it, I know how to adjust the mic



Speaker:
00:19:41
quickly. I just know what to do and I can just do it. Be a



Speaker:
00:19:44
to b, get back and keep things moving. So,



Speaker:
00:19:48
yeah, you just have to know your tools. If it's like you



Speaker:
00:19:52
mentioned, electronic artists or producer. Yeah,



Speaker:
00:19:56
you definitely need to know what synths or if there's



Speaker:
00:20:00
certain sounds that you like, you need to know how to either create them quickly



Speaker:
00:20:03
or find where they are. If you've saved them or if it's a preset or



Speaker:
00:20:07
whatever it is. You just need to know how to get to stuff quickly. I



Speaker:
00:20:10
don't know if you know Damien Taylor, producer mixer? I don't think



Speaker:
00:20:13
so, no. He always encourages people to go through their sample library and delete the



Speaker:
00:20:17
stuff you don't like. And that was, like, mind blowing to me because you're like,



Speaker:
00:20:19
I've got 80 gigs of drums and you use the same four kicks. And



Speaker:
00:20:23
he's like, why do you have 7000 kicks when you use 50 of them? Just



Speaker:
00:20:26
delete them. But I can't delete them. They're my



Speaker:
00:20:30
samples that I don't use. You know what I mean?



Speaker:
00:20:33
Yeah. I don't know what I've got, but I've got



Speaker:
00:20:37
a lot that I've accumulated over the years. I feel like I don't think I



Speaker:
00:20:40
could do that because I work on so many different types of things



Speaker:
00:20:44
and I'mixing so many different styles and genres



Speaker:
00:20:47
that I know where everything is for the most part. I can move



Speaker:
00:20:51
fast, but there are some things where I've only used



Speaker:
00:20:55
once or twice over 24 years, but



Speaker:
00:20:59
I'm holding that in there just in case something comes



Speaker:
00:21:02
up a couple of years from now and I need that thing



Speaker:
00:21:06
and, you know, it'll be there and I don't know



Speaker:
00:21:10
if I could do that. Before I deleted them, I definitely backed them



Speaker:
00:21:14
up. So they're all on another hard drive.



Speaker:
00:21:18
At the end of a session, you talk about doing so many,



Speaker:
00:21:21
making new sounds and creating things that haven't been heard before. At the end of



Speaker:
00:21:25
a project. Do you do any saving pro tools? Track presets or saving



Speaker:
00:21:29
presets or grabbing drum samples? Do you do any



Speaker:
00:21:32
archival? Like, these are dope. I want to save these and know I can get



Speaker:
00:21:35
back to them. No, I never just move on. Yeah.



Speaker:
00:21:39
Just, like, onto the next thing. I just don't



Speaker:
00:21:43
want, like, what I said earlier, I just feel like whatever I did



Speaker:
00:21:46
on this project that I'm just finished. I don't feel



Speaker:
00:21:50
that that is going to work on the next project that I have. Yeah.



Speaker:
00:21:54
And I like having things be specific to each project.



Speaker:
00:21:59
Now, there might be certain ways and techniques, certain things that I



Speaker:
00:22:02
do from project to project that are the same, like the way things are



Speaker:
00:22:06
miced or organized or whatever, but in



Speaker:
00:22:10
terms of sounds, I try to



Speaker:
00:22:13
create the sonic identity for each project. Like, have that, be



Speaker:
00:22:16
unique, a unique thing, and not get into assembly



Speaker:
00:22:20
line, cookie cutter type stuff. I'm not a fan of



Speaker:
00:22:23
presets. Yeah, well, I



Speaker:
00:22:27
mean, obviously you're going to think this because you're not a fan of presets, because



Speaker:
00:22:30
when you came up, you were using analog synths and you were building sounds. Do



Speaker:
00:22:34
you think the fact that now you can download Arturia and just load



Speaker:
00:22:37
up every Juno preset you can think of, do you think kids should not



Speaker:
00:22:41
use the presets and learn how to make a Juno sound? I think they should



Speaker:
00:22:44
learn how to make a juno sound so you can get the sound that's right



Speaker:
00:22:47
for the thing that you're trying to do and just have a good understanding of



Speaker:
00:22:50
how that instrument works. To be very



Speaker:
00:22:54
causative over that and not be flipping through presets. Now,



Speaker:
00:22:58
with that said, sometimes there's some cool presets, sometimes I'll



Speaker:
00:23:02
flip through presets and I'll find something that's actually perfect. It's maybe a



Speaker:
00:23:06
very complex sound that would have taken me a while to program on something,



Speaker:
00:23:09
like some soft synth or whatever, but for the most part, I'm really just trying



Speaker:
00:23:13
to find something unique for each part or each project.



Speaker:
00:23:17
So if I did find a preset that I use, I probably wouldn't use it



Speaker:
00:23:21
for straight up something else. Yeah. Sometimes I feel like



Speaker:
00:23:25
all the technology that we have today is so enabling for



Speaker:
00:23:28
young producers to learn music and be making something cool, but then at the same



Speaker:
00:23:32
time, it also enables you to skip some of that



Speaker:
00:23:35
learning that you and I have gone through. Maybe this is just



Speaker:
00:23:39
me almost being 40, maybe this is why I feel this way, but I just



Speaker:
00:23:43
feel like you can kind of skip some of these basic



Speaker:
00:23:46
understanding of how to build these things. And you can get away



Speaker:
00:23:50
with it, but you can still be successful. So I don't know if it's a



Speaker:
00:23:52
good thing or a bad thing. I don't know. Do you have an opinion? Whatever



Speaker:
00:23:55
works. If it causes them to make better music, then cool. Then



Speaker:
00:23:59
whatever ways of doing any one thing. There's so many ways of



Speaker:
00:24:03
getting a cool synth sound. You can do it by



Speaker:
00:24:06
scratch and reset everything. And dial it in your



Speaker:
00:24:10
way. Yeah, it's cool for some people. Other people, they'll find



Speaker:
00:24:14
a preset, and they're very good at that. And they're good at matching that



Speaker:
00:24:17
preset with the part, with the song. And it's great, and



Speaker:
00:24:21
it's cool. And I've worked with many artists that that's how they work,



Speaker:
00:24:25
and it's great. So, yeah, it's just, for



Speaker:
00:24:29
me, if we were in a room together, and it's like, okay, let's get a



Speaker:
00:24:32
synth sound. I would probably just walk over to the synth. And just start dialing



Speaker:
00:24:35
something in for me. That's quicker than to just be flipping through



Speaker:
00:24:39
the presets. I don't know. That's just me. Do you have any weird



Speaker:
00:24:42
tips? Like, the most unorthodox shit that you did on accident or



Speaker:
00:24:46
you thought wouldn't work. That has become like. Well, I guess you're always changing



Speaker:
00:24:50
things. But is there anything super weird. That you can share with people that you



Speaker:
00:24:53
like? I mean, I love a lot of late eighty s and



Speaker:
00:24:57
early 90s digital multi effects processors.



Speaker:
00:25:00
I feel like they're so



Speaker:
00:25:04
shitty that they're really good. Yeah, they



Speaker:
00:25:07
have an interesting profile. They're



Speaker:
00:25:11
just different than. Let's say it's a reverb or



Speaker:
00:25:14
whatever. They're just different than a nicer



Speaker:
00:25:18
reverb. And they're definitely different than a plug in



Speaker:
00:25:21
reverb. It's just a different thing. So there's a few



Speaker:
00:25:25
that I really love. And I use quite a bit. And they're



Speaker:
00:25:28
cheap. Nice. What else? I use lots of



Speaker:
00:25:32
pedals for various things.



Speaker:
00:25:36
I'll record a bunch of stuff, and I'll use pedals.



Speaker:
00:25:40
Yeah. But then I'll also run things through pedals to go even



Speaker:
00:25:43
further. Cool. And have a bit more control. Like, once it's been



Speaker:
00:25:47
recorded, I can be more aggressive with what I'm doing.



Speaker:
00:25:51
But, yeah, there's a bunch of kind of junkie pedals that I



Speaker:
00:25:54
love. That are just cheap junkie pedals that just do



Speaker:
00:25:58
something cool. There's certain gear. And I learned this early



Speaker:
00:26:02
on when I was an intern at a studio years ago. But I



Speaker:
00:26:06
would basically run drums or whatever through



Speaker:
00:26:09
outboard gear. And I would distort the input of the gear. So



Speaker:
00:26:13
there's certain gear that I just like, analog and



Speaker:
00:26:16
digital. I just like how it distorts. And I'll use that for certain things.



Speaker:
00:26:20
And it's different than distorting with decapitator or some



Speaker:
00:26:24
plugin, some distortion plugin. It's a very different thing.



Speaker:
00:26:28
Oh, I was going to ask you about distortion and saturation, actually. Because when I



Speaker:
00:26:31
think of a lot of the records that I've listened to that you've



Speaker:
00:26:34
made, your distortion and saturation stuff is so good. It's



Speaker:
00:26:38
not brittle and harsh the way it can be. Is that anything you're doing



Speaker:
00:26:42
after the fact? Can you elaborate on that? Or is it really just



Speaker:
00:26:45
understanding what distorts how. And then choosing the



Speaker:
00:26:49
right thing for the right thing? Thank you. I'm glad you noticed. Because I



Speaker:
00:26:52
put a lot of thought into the grit, basically.



Speaker:
00:26:56
Yeah. If it's something that I'm producing. Yeah.



Speaker:
00:26:59
I call it grit versus distortion. Because when I think of distortion,



Speaker:
00:27:03
I think of more of, like, a saturated sound. And I don't



Speaker:
00:27:07
necessarily want that. I don't want it to be



Speaker:
00:27:10
distorted or oversaturated and that sort of thing.



Speaker:
00:27:14
That wouldn't be quite right. I want it to have a grit



Speaker:
00:27:17
to it. Kind of like an early stones record. Like the



Speaker:
00:27:21
early Motown records, where things are kind of breaking.



Speaker:
00:27:25
But it's very satisfying. Yeah. So, yeah, a lot of



Speaker:
00:27:29
that. If it's something that I'm producing, then, yeah, we're getting



Speaker:
00:27:33
that. We're trying to get that however we can. So, again, it's by



Speaker:
00:27:36
overloading a preamp. Where it's enough to. Where it's kind



Speaker:
00:27:40
of breaking up. Or it's adding a little bit of hair to the



Speaker:
00:27:44
thing, to the sound. And then I may go even further. Then when I go



Speaker:
00:27:47
to mix it, I might go even further with additional



Speaker:
00:27:51
grit. And it's usually not a lot that I'm adding.



Speaker:
00:27:55
It's just I'm adding little bits on a lot of things. And so it



Speaker:
00:27:58
adds up in a certain way. And I don't like to use the



Speaker:
00:28:02
same grit on everything. I think that's also



Speaker:
00:28:06
important. Yeah. Because they all have different



Speaker:
00:28:09
colors. Some are going to emphasize the low



Speaker:
00:28:13
end. Some are going to be better on the mid. Some are better on the



Speaker:
00:28:17
top. So just not using the same



Speaker:
00:28:20
plugin. If it's a plugin, not using that same thing on everything. And if it's



Speaker:
00:28:24
outboard, not using that same pedal or piece of gear for



Speaker:
00:28:27
each time I'm trying to overload something. Yeah, you definitely



Speaker:
00:28:31
understand the character of these things. When you were. You probably don't do this now,



Speaker:
00:28:35
but years ago, if time allowed. Did you do a lot



Speaker:
00:28:38
of comparison when you were mixing? Like, what's this sound like compared to that?



Speaker:
00:28:42
Okay, I like the way that this pushes the low mids. This isn't working here.



Speaker:
00:28:46
Or have you just accumulated it over the decades of making



Speaker:
00:28:49
records? How do you mean? Comparison to what? I guess



Speaker:
00:28:53
taken a second to shoot out. Like, before choosing to. We'll use plugins,



Speaker:
00:28:57
for example, because it's easier. So before just throwing decapitator on, did you



Speaker:
00:29:01
ever try retro color next to decapitator next to Saturn



Speaker:
00:29:04
and be like, okay, Saturn is what I want to use because of this? Yeah,



Speaker:
00:29:08
for sure. I mean, before the plugins. Yeah, we would shoot



Speaker:
00:29:11
things out just to see. We try maybe between one



Speaker:
00:29:15
and three options. We would know that one of these will be cool.



Speaker:
00:29:19
They might even all be a little similar, but there's going to be something that's



Speaker:
00:29:22
going to pop out of the speakers. It'll tell us. So, yeah, we



Speaker:
00:29:26
would definitely shoot it out. And I still do that. If I'm mixing something, let's



Speaker:
00:29:29
say maybe something that I didn't produce, something that someone else produced,



Speaker:
00:29:33
but they sent to me to mix, and I'm trying to get



Speaker:
00:29:37
that grit, which maybe they didn't do that when they were capturing



Speaker:
00:29:40
everything. I'm trying to find different ways to creep that grit in



Speaker:
00:29:44
there to not have things sound too clean. I'll



Speaker:
00:29:48
try different ways of doing that because sometimes the



Speaker:
00:29:51
plugin, decapitator, whatever it is, Saturn's



Speaker:
00:29:55
great. Whatever it is, it may be great on that last



Speaker:
00:29:59
project, but it's not working the same way on the same instrument



Speaker:
00:30:03
for this next project. I don't know why that is, but it is what it



Speaker:
00:30:06
is. Sometimes you have to just do a



Speaker:
00:30:09
quick check just to make sure you can't just blindly



Speaker:
00:30:13
do the thing. Like, well, I always do this on my drums. There are



Speaker:
00:30:17
things that I do use a lot for drums or bass or



Speaker:
00:30:21
whatever, but I am checking, and I may not use



Speaker:
00:30:24
the thing that I always use. There are occasions where it's not



Speaker:
00:30:28
right, and so I swap out for something else. But,



Speaker:
00:30:32
yeah, you have to constantly check that. Yeah. A hard tangent



Speaker:
00:30:36
here. Before we close. I was meant to ask you this earlier. I feel like



Speaker:
00:30:39
you've made a lot of records that are both commercially successful



Speaker:
00:30:43
and highly respected. By musicians in the music community,



Speaker:
00:30:46
which we both know is not always easy to do.



Speaker:
00:30:50
What happens when you're straddling that line of what the



Speaker:
00:30:54
artist wants, staying true to that, versus bringing in some of what the



Speaker:
00:30:58
label might expect or some of what the radio is looking for? Do you have



Speaker:
00:31:01
to live in that world at all or do you just make a record and



Speaker:
00:31:05
it resonates and it works? I mean, I'm always on the artist side. I feel



Speaker:
00:31:08
like that's the place to be, helping



Speaker:
00:31:12
them create the vision they have



Speaker:
00:31:15
for the songs. Me coming in and amplifying that



Speaker:
00:31:19
vision, that's what I like to do sometimes. Yes,



Speaker:
00:31:23
labels, if they're signed to a label, then, yeah, it's



Speaker:
00:31:26
possible the label will have some input on that. For the



Speaker:
00:31:30
most part, the majority of the projects that I've worked on, everyone has



Speaker:
00:31:34
been on the same page. It's been very rare. I'd have to



Speaker:
00:31:38
really think back as to a time where the



Speaker:
00:31:42
artist is doing one thing and the label is talking about



Speaker:
00:31:45
some other thing, and there's usually a



Speaker:
00:31:49
parody. The label signed them for a reason, so



Speaker:
00:31:53
they have an understanding. Now, sometimes when you get into the third



Speaker:
00:31:56
or fourth or 6th or 7th album, there can be a thing



Speaker:
00:32:00
where now there's some expectations. The label is



Speaker:
00:32:04
expecting a single or a certain thing of a certain way. Yes. They'd



Speaker:
00:32:08
probably love to have whatever the first big single was that did really well. They



Speaker:
00:32:12
would love a version. Two of that, of course. But usually that's not going to



Speaker:
00:32:15
happen because the artist doesn't want to do that. They've



Speaker:
00:32:19
already done that. And I'm like, with the



Speaker:
00:32:23
artist, why don't we make a single that's really good,



Speaker:
00:32:26
but that's something new and has all the strengths that the artist is



Speaker:
00:32:30
known for and encompasses all of the other cool stuff that



Speaker:
00:32:34
everyone likes and that the artist likes to do. And I feel like that's how



Speaker:
00:32:37
you get the good stuff. But chasing something,



Speaker:
00:32:41
it's just never worked for me. Chasing the charts or chasing



Speaker:
00:32:44
some trend in music that is really popular now. The music



Speaker:
00:32:48
that we're making now is going to come out maybe in six months, and that



Speaker:
00:32:51
is going to be done. That trend will be definitely done.



Speaker:
00:32:55
You're like a sitting duck. Like, no one's going to be interested



Speaker:
00:32:58
in this thing. And frankly, I think the



Speaker:
00:33:02
artist needs to stand in their own



Speaker:
00:33:05
area away from other artists, not be a copycat or



Speaker:
00:33:09
not sound anything like other artists. Yeah.



Speaker:
00:33:13
For the most part, the artists that I love that are big



Speaker:
00:33:17
to me, they're all very unique. They have a very unique



Speaker:
00:33:20
presentation. All aspects, from the sound, their



Speaker:
00:33:24
look, the packaging, everything. It's all very



Speaker:
00:33:27
unique. And I think that's where it's at. Trying to chase



Speaker:
00:33:31
something that is already successful, it's very difficult.



Speaker:
00:33:35
I agree. I have a lot of experience doing songwriting sessions for years



Speaker:
00:33:39
and years and years. And the times that everybody came



Speaker:
00:33:42
in with the intention of writing something that sounded like something



Speaker:
00:33:46
else, it was always an average day. And when people



Speaker:
00:33:50
just came in and just didn't have to write for an artist, and they



Speaker:
00:33:53
just pulled up a piano or whatever and just wrote, those were



Speaker:
00:33:57
always the better songs and probably the ones that got cut and that other stack



Speaker:
00:34:00
of shit that was, like, trying to sound like whatever's hot right now, it just



Speaker:
00:34:04
stays on the hard drive. Yeah. So I completely agree with you.



Speaker:
00:34:08
Okay, so before we hit our closing questions, I've got reports



Speaker:
00:34:12
from an outside source of a remote controlled airplane that may have



Speaker:
00:34:15
been taking off of Sunset sound. And I was told to ask if you knew



Speaker:
00:34:19
anything about this. Yeah, I may know of something about that,



Speaker:
00:34:22
actually. Now, there's actually. Are we talking Sunset



Speaker:
00:34:26
sound or sound factory? It could be either. The



Speaker:
00:34:30
roofs of both of those studios have been used for



Speaker:
00:34:33
Runway access. Yeah.



Speaker:
00:34:37
Okay. All right. I know so many people that work with you.



Speaker:
00:34:41
I know that you're really good at keeping the vibe in the room going and



Speaker:
00:34:44
breaking it up. But then, like you said earlier, you've got your targets. How



Speaker:
00:34:48
do you hit your targets and still make sure everybody's having a great time? You



Speaker:
00:34:51
know what it is? No. I mean, when people are productive and



Speaker:
00:34:55
when they're producing. I don't mean producing as a record producer, but producing



Speaker:
00:34:59
a product. Producing the product of being



Speaker:
00:35:02
a guitar take coming up with a synth part. That would be the product



Speaker:
00:35:06
of that moment when people are making things,



Speaker:
00:35:10
creating stuff, they feel good, and they



Speaker:
00:35:14
kind of keep momentum going. And morale is good.



Speaker:
00:35:17
When it becomes a slog and you're just spending



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00:35:21
so much time in the minutiae of one



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00:35:25
little sound of whatever going down a rabbit hole



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00:35:29
and not really having much movement with it, people



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00:35:32
get tired and unmotivated. So



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00:35:36
I think, for me, what's worked for me is just keeping things



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00:35:40
moving and just



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00:35:44
having agility, moving fast, not getting bogged down on things.



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00:35:48
And then you've got time to go fly airplanes off the roof of a



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00:35:52
studio. Perfect. Tony, this has been great.



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00:35:56
I've got two questions I ask everybody at the. You know, we kind of touched



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00:35:59
on a little bit of this as we went but has there ever been a



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00:36:02
time in your career that you chose to redefine what success



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00:36:06
meant for you? I mean, I'm always trying to



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00:36:09
have songs and artists do



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00:36:13
well. And I think early on, like, early,



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00:36:17
early on, success for me was being able to work



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00:36:20
in a recording studio, like, to make music in a recording



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00:36:24
studio. So if there were a day that I could



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00:36:27
actually go into a studio and work with an artist in a



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00:36:31
studio for one day, that was a huge



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00:36:34
success for me, even. It was for, like, 1 hour.



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00:36:38
Yeah. And then obviously that changed. So then when



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00:36:42
you do that enough, then you want to do a full album in a



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00:36:45
studio, and that was a big thing. So, yeah, it's evolved over the



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00:36:49
years. It's always evolving. But I think, really, the main thing for me is I



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00:36:53
like it when people hear music that I work on. It is success for me



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00:36:57
when the artist is doing well. It's success for me when



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00:37:01
randomly I'm out somewhere at a restaurant or whatever, and



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00:37:04
then a song comes on or it's in a movie that I didn't know



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00:37:08
it was in. I like that. It definitely



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00:37:11
feels good. And again, it means that people like the



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00:37:15
artist. They like the music that we did, and, yeah, that



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00:37:19
defines success. Yeah, I think that's huge. When you're



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00:37:23
a kid, you listen to a record and song will have such an impact. And



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00:37:26
I think, for me, I resonate with that a lot. That's one of the things



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00:37:30
that really gets me going, is when something does well, and you're



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00:37:33
like, some kid out here, out there is being affected by



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00:37:37
this song the way that I was affected by that song 25 years ago or



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00:37:40
whatever. And I think that's huge. I think that's why so many people just keep



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00:37:43
doing this, just to give people that thing that they had when they were a



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00:37:46
kid. Yeah, there was an artist that I worked with



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00:37:50
where a fan had reached out to the artist. The album had just



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00:37:54
come out, and the fan's younger



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00:37:57
brother was, I think, deaf or hard of hearing,



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00:38:01
and her brother had some kind of treatment done



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00:38:05
to his ears to where he was going to be able to hear. And the



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00:38:08
first music that he was going to hear was going to be a song off



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00:38:11
this album. And they told somehow this information got to the



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00:38:15
manager, and then it got to the band. And I just thought, man,



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00:38:19
that is a. Is that the first thing that you want



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00:38:22
to hear? Maybe, I don't know, the Beatles or prince. I don't



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00:38:26
know. It's cool. But I thought it's just really cool. That



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00:38:30
obviously this music hit this girl in such a way to where she



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00:38:34
felt her brother needed to hear it. And I thought that was really cool. And,



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00:38:37
yeah, when people tattoo the lyrics on their



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00:38:41
bodies, personally, I don't think that's a smart idea,



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00:38:46
but the point is, somehow something about this song



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00:38:50
caused some emotion in that



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00:38:54
fan, and it caused them to react and to do that



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00:38:58
where that song really became a part of their lives. And I love that.



Speaker:
00:39:02
Yeah, I think it's huge. That's a good story. I'm glad I didn't break



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00:39:05
into tears or anything now that this is a video show as well. All right,



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00:39:09
so the last question is, what is your current biggest goal that you can share



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00:39:13
with people? What's the next smallest step you're going to take to go towards that



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00:39:16
goal? Biggest goal? I've got a lot of



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00:39:20
really big goals, and some of them, they're not necessarily



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00:39:23
music related, but I would say the biggest



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00:39:27
goal. There's certain artists that I would love to work with.



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00:39:30
That would be a goal. And the step is I'm trying



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00:39:34
to connect with those artists by any means necessary.



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00:39:38
So either through a connection I have or through



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00:39:42
my manager or some other way, but it's cool.



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00:39:46
Goals are a big thing for me, just even in the day



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00:39:49
to day of making records. Like, I'm setting daily targets and



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00:39:53
goals. It's just how I operate. It makes it



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00:39:57
easier for me to get through a day, basically, and to have something to show



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00:40:00
for that day, but so I'm always very goal



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00:40:04
oriented, and I try to write them down once or



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00:40:07
twice a day, in the morning and at night. I don't always have the



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00:40:11
time, but I do try to. And then those goals, they're always



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00:40:15
changing as well. Yeah. There's a lot to writing them down,



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00:40:18
visualizing them, telling them to your partner



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00:40:22
or your friend. It's something about, like, you just feel, like, more accountable to them



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00:40:26
when they're down on a piece of paper or whatever. Yeah. It makes them



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00:40:30
more real. Yeah. And I put them in the present tense, like,



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00:40:34
I am doing this, I have this, they're



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00:40:37
present. Not like I want to do this or I hope to do.



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00:40:41
It's like, I am doing this, I have this, and I've done that for years.



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00:40:45
And it's funny because just randomly, there'll be things that I write about.



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00:40:49
I kid you not. And then, let's say if it's working with an



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00:40:52
artist, a few months later, this artist will reach out.



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00:40:56
This has happened with so many things, and I don't even know how to



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00:41:00
explain it. And it just happened recently with something with an



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00:41:03
artist who I just had lunch with the other day, but someone who I



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00:41:07
wanted to work with. And then they read an interview that I



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00:41:11
did in tape op magazine and then



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00:41:14
they reached out to me. Most bizarre thing. And I was just trying to think,



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00:41:18
like, how can I connect with this artist? And I was being a little slow



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00:41:22
at doing it. And, like, I don't know, it's kind of



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00:41:25
going back and forth on doing it or not. And then they



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00:41:29
reached out. So it's just really bizarre. Yeah, I feel like



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00:41:33
a lot of people, at least I believe that you kind of find



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00:41:36
what you're looking for. It's like if you're looking for



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00:41:40
a positive experience walking into the studio, then you're going to have a positive



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00:41:44
experience. And I think that applies to what you're talking about. It's like you're looking



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00:41:47
to work with these people. You're going to somehow find your way to that space.



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00:41:51
And I guess right before we go, last question. It sounds like



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00:41:54
you're not afraid to reach out to somebody that you are passionate about that you



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00:41:58
want to work with. Can you speak to that and tell younger kids, like,



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00:42:02
hey, reach out to people that you want to work with? I guess the fact



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00:42:05
that you're doing it should be an example enough that it's okay to reach out



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00:42:08
and say, hey, I love your music. Is there any chance we can work together?



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00:42:11
Yeah, I mean, I've done that for years before social



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00:42:14
media and before the Internet,



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00:42:18
many years ago. That's awesome. If there was someone that I've liked and



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00:42:22
wanted to collaborate with, I would just try to hit him up. And



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00:42:25
often it's led to really cool things and sometimes it's not an



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00:42:29
immediate thing that happens. Yeah. There was one artist,



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00:42:33
this artist, Sandra Lurke, a norwegian artist



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00:42:36
who I heard his first album and just



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00:42:40
loved his album. And I reached out and



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00:42:44
through know somehow I was able to connect and we



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00:42:47
connected and I said, man, I'd love your music. It's really cool. I'd



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00:42:51
love to work with you someday if you ever are in LA or whatever. He



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00:42:54
was based in Norway at the time and I think



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00:42:58
two or three years later we ended up doing a record together



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00:43:01
and we made a really cool album. It may not be an



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00:43:05
immediate thing and it has to be the right communication as well because you don't



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00:43:09
want to bother people, but you want to be



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00:43:12
enthusiastic and you want to be intentional with what you're wanting



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00:43:16
to do. But not waste people's time. So I'm also mindful of that.



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00:43:21
Yeah, it can't be about money. It's got to be about



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00:43:24
art. Well, yeah, it definitely can't be about the money. I just think some people



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00:43:28
are like, how am I going to get gigs? I'm going to email everybody I



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00:43:30
know. And that's not like, reaching out to people that you don't actually want to



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00:43:33
work with just because you think they'll pay you is a horrible idea. This job,



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00:43:36
and it's hard to call it a job, honestly, because working on music



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00:43:40
doesn't feel like a job. There's other jobs. Working on a roof



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00:43:44
would be a job in the summer. That would be a very hard job. I



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00:43:47
would not be good at that. If you're doing it for the money, I feel



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00:43:50
like it's harder. It's harder for stuff to flow to you.



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00:43:54
When I started off, yeah, I needed to get paid, but I wasn't doing



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00:43:57
it for the money. I was doing it because I wanted to work on music,



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00:44:01
and that's still what I do. I take projects all the time



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00:44:04
that are not necessarily. Some will be very low budget



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00:44:08
projects. I just love it so much. Got to do it.



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00:44:12
Yeah, I just want to work with the artist. So



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00:44:16
sometimes, if you can really have it be



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00:44:20
about the music, I think things will flow to you.



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00:44:24
You may not make a lot of money at first, but it will



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00:44:27
cause the money to come. It'll cause the projects to



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00:44:31
come. But I think really it's building up an abundance of really good



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00:44:35
projects to show people and to get out there. And that's



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00:44:38
basically what I did early on. I was just working on lots of stuff and



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00:44:42
try to find cool stuff to work on. Not just anything, but stuff



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00:44:46
that could hopefully get people's attention. And I was doing a lot of it for



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00:44:50
no money. But one of those projects, the drummer that



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00:44:54
worked with me on that project, he ended up becoming the drummer



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00:44:57
for a french band called Air. And then he played the stuff that we did.



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00:45:01
I didn't get paid for it. They gave me literally pizza, like lunch



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00:45:05
and dinner, and I was cool with it. I loved it. We're working on



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00:45:09
cool music. I got to work on a trident, a range, which I'd never



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00:45:12
used before. It was great, nice. But he played it for air, and then that



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00:45:15
caused me to work with air, and then that caused me to work



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00:45:19
with a lot of british artists. I guess



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00:45:23
all I'm saying is just, you never know. It should definitely be all about the



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00:45:26
creativity. Hopefully the money will come,



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00:45:30
hopefully. That's awesome. Please share



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00:45:33
with people anything you want to share. If there's a project that you're really



Speaker:
00:45:37
passionate about, if you have management that they can reach out to, I don't know



Speaker:
00:45:40
if there's anything you want to share. This is a little spot for you. Yeah.



Speaker:
00:45:42
I mean, people can hit me up however they want to find me.



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00:45:47
Instagram, I have a website. They can find me there. They can reach



Speaker:
00:45:51
out to me. Know. Awesome. Tony, this has been so much fun.



Speaker:
00:45:55
I'm glad we got to connect. Like I said, we know so many people, same



Speaker:
00:45:58
people. And I've listened to so much music you've made. So thanks for making all



Speaker:
00:46:01
my music. Thank you so much. Yeah. Appreciate it. Yeah. Loved it.



Speaker:
00:46:05
Thank you.