Andrew Scheps - A Conversation About the Future of Audio and The Skills You Need to Be a Mix Engineer

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Unless you're the artist, you are never making your own record, ever.



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And you've got to stop trying to make your own record on other



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people's music. That's Andrew Scheps, a man that needs little introduction



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in the audio world. He's a Grammy winning engineer and mixer who's worked with icons



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like Red Hot Chili Peppers, Adele, Metallica, and Jay Z.



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Today we're talking about what it takes to have a career as an engineer in



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today's recording industry. We hit it all from the technical skills you need. A



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parallel compressor should be more compressed than you would ever



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put on the insert directly because you only want to blend in



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a little bit. But the way to think about parallel. Compression in general is



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through the mindsets you must have. The guaranteed way



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to not have a career is to sit at home being mad at the career



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you don't have. How the current state of production has transformed



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mixing. There's no more



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tracking. It's all mixing constantly from the very



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first track. And what that means is



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that mixing is totally different than it was even



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five years ago. Why? AI will probably never make lasting



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art. But it can't step outside the training set. And if



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you think about everything that, like, went, whoa,



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what's that? And you got super excited about it. It was either the first time



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anyone had done it or it's the only time anyone had done it. And to



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always remember when we can. Work on a project with a musician or an artist



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that is making the music we wish we could do. What's better than



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that? Nothing.



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So I look at your career, I see evolution and



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diversification, where you've gone from like analog to all



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digital. You were early on atmos. You made a plug in with



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waves. You taught yourself to code so you could have a stem



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printing solution. So you've added skills and you've kind of like, stayed on the



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forefront of engineering. Right. So where do you



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think engineering is heading from here? What do you think it looks like,



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say, five years? It's a really good



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question because there's so many things in play right now. Obviously there's



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AI. Apparently Spike Stent has just announced there



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will be an AI. Spike stent. I just saw that. Saw that? Yeah.



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The website is not terribly informative. I have a feeling it was written



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by AI, but, yeah, I mean, Spike's a



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super smart dude and he's got his son working on it and stuff, so I'm



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sure it's going to be pretty amazing, whatever it is. But that's been



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the holy grail. Of the tech companies forever, right. Is to do that.



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Because the size of the



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market for professionals who make records is



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nothing compared to the size of the market of people who



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like messing around with music. So the



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better their results can be, the happier



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they're going to be. And that's going to be amazing. So that will



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absolutely drive that kind of thing, just like with online mastering.



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And, you know, it's already happened, but the mixing has been a tough nut to



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crack. And I think it'll be really interesting to see what, what



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Spike's thing is about. And I'm sure everyone else is working on it too. So



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that's one thing. The other thing is



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there's no more



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tracking. It's all mixing constantly



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from the very first track. And what



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that means is that mixing is



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totally different than it was even five years ago for me on most



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projects because I am locked into stuff that everyone



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loves, but it's not because it's tracked that way. So it's not



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individual track processing, it's overall mix



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processing. And that makes it cool



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because some of it's done, but it also means it's



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very difficult to back out of anything because other stuff starts to fall



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apart because it's all processing that has everything in it



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instead of just like, oh, they did something really weird with that one



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drum mic, I can do something different with it. It's not that. It's like



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that mic got weird because of the 40 tracks of



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background vocals. Right. So that's just gonna keep going. And I. But



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what's interesting about that is that moves mixing down



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into the creators realm, which is



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why something like an AI spike stent



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is going to be exactly the right product for what's happening.



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Interesting, because. Yeah, I agree. It's like mixing is becoming,



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in my experience as well, parallels that less is more because so much has been



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done before. Yeah, yeah. And just in an



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inside out way. I mean, that mirrors mixing when you're working on eight track or



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16 track because everything is tracked. I. So that you put the faders up,



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you pan it, and that's the record, but it's



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totally the inside out version of that. Yeah. Okay, well, okay, so you brought



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up the spike thing. I know that came out yesterday. So that dates this interview



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or was announced yesterday. I have an opinion about this and



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you can fight me on this or agree, whatever. I think that AI and



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mixing at first, it causes people



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to get better. Like people that are good, that aren't charging a premium, have to



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get great to separate themselves. But I think where the problem



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lies is the people that are trying to do the



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$100 mixes because they just graduated college, they're



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not going to be mixing their peers work because their peers can



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have spikes. AI or



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whoever's AI, do it for them. So does that mean that



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down the line, the craft suffers and there's a generation of people



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that kind of miss out on learning it? Yeah, I mean,



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that's certainly possible, but at the same time,



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podcasts, online classes, stuff inside of paywalls,



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outside of paywalls, I mean, that's exploded.



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So the opportunity to learn is better than



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it's ever been. I mean, I had to go to a four year college and



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spend a ridiculous amount of my parents money to get a degree



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to learn anything. Same.



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Now, you don't have to do that. So it's



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democratized on both sides of it. But where it's dangerous



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is you have to have some foundational knowledge to



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learn from anything that happens with the AI tools. I mean, you know,



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ozone AI, it listens to stuff, and it fits



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eq curves and things, and it's really good at it. But if you



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don't go through the modules that it set up and, like, bypass them one



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at a time and tweak some things, and then you're like, oh, okay,



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that's what they're doing. And then maybe you'll do it yourself. Then you're



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never going to become a mixer. It's just not going to happen because anyone can



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slap an ozone on there, and I'll do it for a hell of a lot



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less than $100 because I'll mix 500 songs a day.



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If all I got to do is slap an ozone on there, we're done.



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So it's not about that. And I think this is where the



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whole AI thing always trips up a little bit,



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is that AI can actually be creative,



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but it will only work within its training set. And the training set is



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hundreds of thousands, if not millions of things. It's easy to think, like, oh, it



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listened to ten songs, and, you know, these training sets are gigantic,



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but it can't step outside the training set. And if you think



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about everything that, like, went, whoa, what's that? And



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you got super excited about it. It was either the first time anyone had done



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it, or it's the only time anyone had done it. And it could be anything.



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It's the big guitars on creep. It's the distortion on Beck



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Odelet. That shit had never happened, but



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that's what grabs people and really makes them want to listen. So there'll be this



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amazing, huge pool of what you would



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then consider middle of the road stuff with middle of the road mixes that might



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sound really good when you just put them on, but that's not lasting



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art, which is really what we're trying to do. Yeah,



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well, I think it drives. It drives people to, like, embrace their



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preferences even further as opposed to trying to match what the radio sounds like, because



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that's what the AI is going to do. So, you know, like, somebody like Chad



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Blake is perfect example. Like, you know what you're going to get? You're going to



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get Chad Blake's sound. I think that's going to drive more people to make



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artistic choices, and that's probably going to be better. I hope so.



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Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So kind of along these lines of I've heard you say



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that you believe there's no rules, and I agree with that. I think, like,



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you've said what comes out of the speakers. If it sounds good, it's good.



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But I do think that when you're young and you're coming up, you're coming out



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of college, you're searching for rules because you don't know what to do.



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How do you think somebody balances that beginner's



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mindset with whatever



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the rule is? It's hard



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because it used to be you would work in a studio and you'd see



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lots of different people do stuff, and so you would learn



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the rules while watching people do different



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things. So, you know,



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tutorials are great if they're good.



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And I think that it's hard because it's not



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free, but stuff behind a paywall is generally better because otherwise they'd be



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out of business. So mix of the masters and pure mix and those



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companies, especially pure mix for, like, pure educational videos.



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It's an amazing resource. Absolutely amazing. So



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the thing, like, there are no rules is true, but there are



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fundamental laws of physics and math and electronics



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and all that kind of thing. And that's never going to change that stuff.



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So that's your toolbox. So you



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want to know that really well because then you can be super creative. Otherwise,



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you're at the point where you're putting ozone on and you have no idea what



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it's doing. You'll never learn anything like that.



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So you need to be the person who takes the toaster



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apart to see how it works, you know, and hope you don't



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die when you plug it in. But it is that, like, you



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can learn it from a million different places instead of having to get a gig



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at a studio, which is great, but you've got to



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pursue the knowledge of it. There is no shortcut to being



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good. There just isn't. No, no, because it's



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the musicality that makes it good. That's what makes people want to listen again, not



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because the snare sound is better. Do you think you discover that



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musicality as an engineer over time, or do you think some people just kind of



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inherently find it quick? Both.



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I mean, in the same with the actual engineering. I mean, there were people I



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went to college with, and everything they ever did sounded like a record. Like



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Neil Avron. Holy shit. I mean, his stuff. First year of



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college was insane, and I feel like I'm still not



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the level he was sonically when he started. And this



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is. It's 40 years ago. It's 40 years



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ago this year. Ah, I'm old.



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But the creative thing, I mean, that



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just. I mean, think about a musician. You know, Coltrane didn't



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pop out of the womb with sheets of sound. I mean, there's a progression,



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and again, there's the learning your instrument. There's like, he studied scales. For him not



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to. We don't have to make Coltrane the center of this, but Eddie Van



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Halen practiced a lot, too. You get



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more creative as you go. There's some people who are super creative right



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away, and for them, it's just about learning the tools to pull it out of



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their head. But I have definitely learned how to listen



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and learn to find the things that I really want to bring



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out because I think emotionally, that's going to make people connect and stuff



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like that. When you're busy, you have an opportunity to practice things while you're



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making records. You can toss up an extra microphone, do something weird to it. Nobody



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ever has to hear it except for you. Are there ways that you think engineers



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can practice these days and kind of hone their skills outside of just actually



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working? Yeah, because if they have a laptop and



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interface and a couple of microphones, they can go make a record.



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So you were saying earlier it's unlikely that



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the younger ones are going to be mixing stuff by their peers, but they will



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if they go to a club and say, I like your band, let's go make



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a record in your living room. Yeah. Nobody's



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expecting anything at that point, which means



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you can experiment and you can be a creative partnership



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with the band, trying to find sounds or something. That's cool. And



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I think that that's a great way to do it. And I couldn't do it.



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I mean, you think that maybe it was better before,



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but it wasn't. I mean, if you couldn't get into a studio. I mean,



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I bought gear very early on so that I could



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do stuff without having to get into a studio because nothing I wanted to work



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on had any money. Yeah. Access to technology, I think,



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is pretty powerful. And like you said, the access to



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knowledge is amazing. Okay, I feel like I know how you would answer this question,



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but would you tell somebody right now that they should go to an engineering school



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and pay that money in 2024?



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It's really hard to say, to be honest. Like, when I went to school, a



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four year college degree was a big deal. Like, you had to have one. There



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was just no way you weren't going to have that now. So unless you're



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in a specific field, sometimes it's hard to argue that a four year degree is



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worth it. Like, if you want to be in tech, tech companies hate it when



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you've got a four year degree because they want you to learn the way they



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want you to do it. Right. Whereas you would think that you would



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need an advanced degree in computer science before you could even



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start. So that's part of it. And I think



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that there are people who get stuff out of schools and there are people



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who don't. So I think it's actually



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really personal. There are people who can learn really well. And for me,



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it was the best thing I could ever have done because I want to know



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how stuff works so that I don't even have to think about it.



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But when anything happens, I know why it's happening, and I can react to it



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and make it do what I want. Some people, that doesn't work,



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that's not the thing. So it's impossible for



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me to say one way or the other. I agree with. That's kind of how



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I think you have to understand what kind of learner you are. Like, if you



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are a self starter, more independent, just want to get your head in there



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and do it, then I don't think you need to do it. But some people,



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they like the structure. They need the classroom. They need that. And the other thing



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is, I met a ton of people, a ton of people who do what



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I do, and a lot of them are still in the business. I mean, I



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went to college with John Paterno and Joe Barisi,



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and I just call them up when I got a question, and it's fantastic.



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So meeting your peers like you were talking about.



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Yeah, that's invaluable, really. But you don't have to



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pay a huge amount of money and go to a multi year school for that.



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Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, a lot of my closest friends that I trade gigs with, we



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all went to school and moved out here in the same few years, and



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that's how it is. I want to shift a little bit to more of a



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career thing. A lot of the questions that come up on the show are



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things I'm curious about or things I'm struggling with, and I don't always



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admit that, but that's, you know, you just did. Exactly.



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Now everybody knows, but you get to sit down with cool people and ask questions.



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Everybody in this industry kind of believes that there's, like, one credit on the horizon



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that's going to, like, change their life and, like, make them



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an engineer star. Right. And so I've been lucky to work on a few



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records that went number one, and every time I have that feeling



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where I'm like, this is it. It's going to launch. This is going to change



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everything. And, like, as you probably know, not much changes.



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Right. So do you have advice to producers or



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engineers that think that that's about to happen to them? How. How they should actually



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think about it, how they could maybe take advantage of it, build momentum? Like, what



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are your experiences throughout your career? Well,



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I mean, look, I've been ridiculously lucky, but if you



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look at my discography over the last



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35 years, because I did go to school for four years, so not 40



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years. It's a slow burn. I mean, I had a lot of



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assisting and vocal editing and vocal tuning, like, through the boy



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band era, I was tuning vocals. That's how I paid the mortgage,



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literally. It's terrible. And there were a



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couple of things that were a big deal to a



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few people, so it definitely jumped me up a little bit. Like 99



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problems. That was a little bit of a jump. And then



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the Adele record opened up doors to some stuff, but I don't really work in



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that genre that often, so it's not like, oh, now I'm



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set. But look, that was a



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mixing credit on album of the year of,



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like, the biggest selling album three years straight or something like



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that. So there's one of



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those, you know, it's nothing something.



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I think what's more important is that there were projects when I



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was working on them, and I thought musically, like, this is



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my favorite thing I have ever worked on, and if this



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doesn't come out, I'm done, like the music business and



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whatever, and twice that I can think of just off the top of my head,



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they didn't come out. Or if they did, absolutely nothing happened. The promo was



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terrible, and there are these amazing records that nobody's



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heard of. And so instead of



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saying, like, well, I'm going to get out of the business, you



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realize how incredible it was to have



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two opportunities to work on something you love that



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much. Yeah, it sucks when it's not going well. And you



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really do think that. And I've seen there's so many people



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who are, like, mad about a



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credit they feel they deserve but didn't get. Like, you know,



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I engineered some overdubs. I should get an engineering credit. And,



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00:17:35
I mean, that's the whole, that's a whole different topic about, you know, making sure



Speaker:
00:17:39
you take care of your credits before the project starts because you will never get



Speaker:
00:17:42
a credit that you think you should get if you haven't already negotiated it. So



Speaker:
00:17:46
you can take that question off the list. It's a brutal,



Speaker:
00:17:49
brutal business, and



Speaker:
00:17:53
I am just ridiculously lucky that I've, you know, made it or whatever,



Speaker:
00:17:57
but I'm still scrambling a lot of the time. Like, I'll go without



Speaker:
00:18:00
work and then I'll have some work that I take because I didn't



Speaker:
00:18:04
have work, but it's low paying, but it's taking up a huge amount of time.



Speaker:
00:18:08
And then all of a sudden a gig comes in that actually would pay for



Speaker:
00:18:12
some stuff, but I can't take it because, you know, there's always a juggling



Speaker:
00:18:15
act. I just happen to be juggling the really good balls most of the time.



Speaker:
00:18:19
Yeah. But right after the Adele win, right after the Grammys, I didn't work for



Speaker:
00:18:23
three months. I had absolutely no work. January, February,



Speaker:
00:18:26
March of whatever year that was none. Not



Speaker:
00:18:30
a single paying gig. How'd you feel like that? I



Speaker:
00:18:34
curled up in a ball and I just go and do something



Speaker:
00:18:37
else. One time when that happened, I went and started teaching a class at



Speaker:
00:18:41
UCLA. Another time, I helped a buddy out who had a low



Speaker:
00:18:45
voltage installation thing. He did audio, but also stuff that



Speaker:
00:18:49
made the curtains open and close and tvs come up out of people's beds.



Speaker:
00:18:54
You know, you gotta stay busy. Yeah, look, the last thing I'm gonna do is



Speaker:
00:18:57
complain and whine. I'm lucky.



Speaker:
00:19:00
Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't think.



Speaker:
00:19:04
I hate to use the word luck. It's more like it



Speaker:
00:19:07
works, but it's building trust with people. It's following through,



Speaker:
00:19:11
it's being prepared when the opportunity comes. And the more you have those



Speaker:
00:19:15
things stacked up in your favor, the more it seems like you're lucky,



Speaker:
00:19:19
because the right people call, you. Follow through, they call again.



Speaker:
00:19:23
Cycle continues. Yeah. The guaranteed way to



Speaker:
00:19:27
not have a career is to sit at home being mad at the career you



Speaker:
00:19:31
don't have. You know, if you want to be in the right place at the



Speaker:
00:19:34
right time, you got to be everywhere all the time. That's the thing. So you've



Speaker:
00:19:37
got to be out there seeing bands, meeting people, joining



Speaker:
00:19:41
stuff. Join Naras, join AE's. Maybe



Speaker:
00:19:45
if you're a little more technical. There are groups in the UK, there's the



Speaker:
00:19:48
MpG. Like, there are groups everywhere where you get to just go hang



Speaker:
00:19:52
out and talk about plugins. Do it. One of those people will offer you a



Speaker:
00:19:56
gig at one point. Yeah. Or just bring you up to somebody. It's like, top



Speaker:
00:19:59
of mind. It's like, oh, you have to just be in the



Speaker:
00:20:03
space. Okay. So this kind of leads to another question I was gonna



Speaker:
00:20:06
throw in somewhere. Is there a limiting belief that you think holds people back



Speaker:
00:20:10
in this industry? I mean, for me, it's imposter syndrome.



Speaker:
00:20:14
I've got a gigantic, colossal, world sized



Speaker:
00:20:18
case of that. I don't know that it holds me back,



Speaker:
00:20:21
because fortunately, while I'm actually digging in



Speaker:
00:20:25
on something, unless it's just a disaster, I don't have it



Speaker:
00:20:29
until I send a mix. But I have it going



Speaker:
00:20:33
into sessions. If I'm tracking, I mean, I've pulled over to the side of the



Speaker:
00:20:36
road and thought about, well, I could call in sick and just go



Speaker:
00:20:40
home, like crazy stuff. And then you get there and you get going, and



Speaker:
00:20:44
it's okay. So I think it's that, for



Speaker:
00:20:47
me, I will do stuff almost like I'm in a trance. It's like, okay,



Speaker:
00:20:51
I'm doing it. Like there isn't a choice anymore. I'm doing it, and then



Speaker:
00:20:55
it starts happening, and then it's okay. It's like, you remember,



Speaker:
00:21:00
this is what I do. This is my thing. So there's that, and then the



Speaker:
00:21:04
opposite of it is what we were just talking about, which is



Speaker:
00:21:08
90% of the gig, everyone assumes you know everything



Speaker:
00:21:12
about what to do, to do your job. So 90% of it



Speaker:
00:21:16
is, don't be a dick, which is my other phrase. It's whatever



Speaker:
00:21:20
comes out of the speakers. And don't be a dick, because you need to be



Speaker:
00:21:23
able to be somebody people want to have in the room, and they



Speaker:
00:21:27
will gladly take someone who's a little slower, who isn't a



Speaker:
00:21:30
dick. That is the truth. And I think



Speaker:
00:21:34
that's something that you learn in the big studios because you



Speaker:
00:21:38
see it. You see when you get kicked off of a session and when an



Speaker:
00:21:42
engineer producer doesn't want you as the assistant again. But I think when you're



Speaker:
00:21:45
independent, you're working in your backyard now and you're just working with your friends. I



Speaker:
00:21:48
don't think people understand that the way that they would if they came up through



Speaker:
00:21:51
the system. Yeah, well, it's also



Speaker:
00:21:55
the sort of studio hierarchy, like in a bigger studio. You learn very,



Speaker:
00:21:59
very quickly that the assistant, if they have an idea, tells the engineer, the engineer



Speaker:
00:22:03
tells the producer, the producer tells the artist. Nobody except the



Speaker:
00:22:06
producer talks to the artist unless it's your 12th record with them



Speaker:
00:22:10
and it's one big happy family. But when it's. Yeah,



Speaker:
00:22:14
when it's you in your backyard, you think that you're always making your own record.



Speaker:
00:22:18
Okay, so that's the lesson to learn, though, is unless you're the



Speaker:
00:22:21
artist, you are never making your own record, ever.



Speaker:
00:22:25
And you've got to stop trying to make your own record on



Speaker:
00:22:29
other people's music. You're making their record. And if you're not present



Speaker:
00:22:33
understanding what it is they're going for, even if you don't like it, you



Speaker:
00:22:37
think it would be so much better. That's not the



Speaker:
00:22:41
job. Yeah, there you go. There's another one. That's good.



Speaker:
00:22:45
They're falling out today. There's a clip. We've got a clip, people.



Speaker:
00:22:49
I can't not talk a little bit of technical stuff with you, although I would



Speaker:
00:22:52
love to just do career all day. I'm looking at my notes. Let's talk a



Speaker:
00:22:55
little bit about adding skills to your repertoire.



Speaker:
00:22:59
Taught yourself to script and created bounce factory. Did



Speaker:
00:23:03
you learn to script to create something like bounce factory, or did you realize the



Speaker:
00:23:07
power that you had when you started automating things and, like, learning



Speaker:
00:23:11
how you could make the computer work for you? It's a little



Speaker:
00:23:14
bit of both where, like, I've tried to teach



Speaker:
00:23:18
myself programming because I'm a total geek and thought, oh, that'd be really cool. Yeah.



Speaker:
00:23:22
And several times in my life, and it never went well because I didn't have



Speaker:
00:23:25
a project. Then I discovered sound



Speaker:
00:23:29
flow and immediately built a couple of things, like tiny



Speaker:
00:23:33
things. I've got my function. My f 19 key



Speaker:
00:23:37
swaps the input state of the bottom track in my session. Doesn't matter



Speaker:
00:23:40
what session's open because that's how I monitor things. The rough or



Speaker:
00:23:44
my previous mix is on an audio track at the bottom. If I switch to



Speaker:
00:23:47
input, it's the live mix. I used to have to scroll to the bottom of



Speaker:
00:23:50
the screen and then click the input button. Now I don't. That took me



Speaker:
00:23:54
about ten minutes. And that's when I knew, like, okay, so for a while, it



Speaker:
00:23:58
was just automating, like, little things, session prep or setting



Speaker:
00:24:01
preferences or stuff like that. And then I started



Speaker:
00:24:05
writing the bounce script that most people who use



Speaker:
00:24:09
soundflow will eventually write, and it'll be very, very specific to



Speaker:
00:24:12
themselves, which is fine, that's great, because that's



Speaker:
00:24:16
all you need. But then I started generalizing



Speaker:
00:24:20
it when I realized how many different types of things I bounce.



Speaker:
00:24:24
And. Yeah, so I learned because I had



Speaker:
00:24:27
to learn because I had to write this app. But there were a couple of



Speaker:
00:24:30
apps before. There's the offset counter, because you



Speaker:
00:24:34
can't offset the minutes and seconds counter in pro tools. So you open up



Speaker:
00:24:38
this counter, put the cursor anywhere you want, hit a button. Now



Speaker:
00:24:41
that's zero, and you can locate to the numbers you just got in the email



Speaker:
00:24:45
with all your mix notes. Exactly. It's genius. So



Speaker:
00:24:49
it was that it started off as that, and then it just turned into bounce



Speaker:
00:24:52
factory, which was two full years of just coding because



Speaker:
00:24:56
Covid. I mean, that's. I discovered bounce factory during COVID So. That



Speaker:
00:25:00
was one of your Covid adventures? Like, I started a podcast. You made bounce



Speaker:
00:25:04
factory? Yeah, yeah, those two things. That's what I did. What



Speaker:
00:25:07
are some of your favorite automations? Music or non music that aren't like the



Speaker:
00:25:11
ones that people know about, like bounce Factory or the



Speaker:
00:25:15
counter? I think all of mine are music



Speaker:
00:25:18
just because I use it when I'm sitting in the chair and I don't have



Speaker:
00:25:21
hue lights and, you know, but I know a lot of people controlling



Speaker:
00:25:25
everything with it. Prep a session



Speaker:
00:25:28
in less than ten minutes now. So



Speaker:
00:25:32
it imports tracks from my template, but it knows which format it



Speaker:
00:25:36
is because I told it. Oh, this is stereo. This is atmos with all the



Speaker:
00:25:38
crap. This is atmos from stems. It imports the right tracks, it sets the



Speaker:
00:25:42
preferences the right way. I can color code and add to groups



Speaker:
00:25:46
in seconds now. Like, it's



Speaker:
00:25:49
basically every single time I do anything that's



Speaker:
00:25:53
bothering me. I could do it again in four or 5



Speaker:
00:25:57
seconds, but I will stop for 2 hours and write a script, and then I'll



Speaker:
00:26:00
never have to do it again. Yeah, I have



Speaker:
00:26:04
an extremely long list of things that I want to build, but I



Speaker:
00:26:08
don't take the 2 hours to build them. But it's a long list.



Speaker:
00:26:11
But you know what? When you do it. It's so



Speaker:
00:26:15
awesome. It is. You're happy because you're



Speaker:
00:26:19
not doing the thing. It isn't just. It's not going to make me sad. It



Speaker:
00:26:23
actually makes you happy. And you're super creative. As soon as it's done running



Speaker:
00:26:27
that script and you can get back to work. Yeah. Like I told you



Speaker:
00:26:31
when we chatted, like a week or so ago, I found bounce factory right



Speaker:
00:26:34
after I had my daughter. And it was all of a sudden,



Speaker:
00:26:38
like, what am I going to do? Like, how am I going to do this?



Speaker:
00:26:41
And to be able to automate something to that level and know that I can



Speaker:
00:26:44
print an entire album of atmos stems, because God knows,



Speaker:
00:26:48
like, somebody's like, we're gonna mix atmos and you're like, I don't want to print



Speaker:
00:26:51
those stamps. I don't have that time. It's just like, I don't know anybody



Speaker:
00:26:55
that fights against automation just makes me a little bit crazy. There's one of my



Speaker:
00:26:58
friends that's gonna listen to this and he's gonna know who he is, but



Speaker:
00:27:02
I just. I wish everybody would just get on board a little bit, you know?



Speaker:
00:27:05
Well, but, you know, if they're happy doing it that way,



Speaker:
00:27:08
then cool. I guess if you're happy, right? Yeah,



Speaker:
00:27:12
yeah. I mean, if it starts impacting your life because he can never get out



Speaker:
00:27:15
of the house because he's printing stems or she printing stems 24 hours



Speaker:
00:27:19
a day, then, you know. But see, the difference for me, first



Speaker:
00:27:23
of all, it's that it's exactly what you're saying. You can do other stuff. I



Speaker:
00:27:26
can go watch something with my wife. I can go on a walk. I can



Speaker:
00:27:30
sleep, that kind of thing. But it's also



Speaker:
00:27:33
for atmos. I would have been printing ten or twelve stems per



Speaker:
00:27:37
song because it's such a pain in the ass. And it's a twelve song record.



Speaker:
00:27:40
That's still 144 stems, and that's a



Speaker:
00:27:44
lot. Yeah. I'm printing 40 or 50 every. I



Speaker:
00:27:47
basically print every single thing separate so the audio is



Speaker:
00:27:51
baked in. But if I want to split up the background vocals



Speaker:
00:27:55
into a sphere of background vocals, I have them separate. I



Speaker:
00:27:59
can do it. Yeah. Without even thinking about it. Yeah. And it's not. It's



Speaker:
00:28:02
not a heavier lift for you because it's just you've set it up. Because I



Speaker:
00:28:06
agree. If I wasn't automating my bounces, I would



Speaker:
00:28:10
be trying to do atmos with far fewer stems for my stereo mix



Speaker:
00:28:14
because just out of time. And now you have the freedom.



Speaker:
00:28:17
There's been this thing over the last, I don't know, ten years, where



Speaker:
00:28:21
labels want you to deliver a multitrack. It's like, well, get that from the producer.



Speaker:
00:28:25
That doesn't come from the mixer. But then, you know, none of the sounds are



Speaker:
00:28:29
there. There have been edits done since the producer, like, they sent you a new



Speaker:
00:28:32
vocal and all that stuff. So now I actually have a



Speaker:
00:28:36
multi track where you can just put the faders up and you're really, really close



Speaker:
00:28:39
to the mix. Yeah, that's a big deal for the band.



Speaker:
00:28:43
You know, I get calls from Hozier's



Speaker:
00:28:46
musical director. Front of house. Actually, I think he's front of



Speaker:
00:28:50
house. I don't remember. But he's the guy who emails me and says, hey, I



Speaker:
00:28:54
need some stuff for this song. I would have to open



Speaker:
00:28:58
it up and print specific things, but I just send him the folder, and



Speaker:
00:29:01
he loves it. He just pulls up whatever he needs. He can submix on his



Speaker:
00:29:05
own. And there you go. You eliminate back and forth and extra questions of,



Speaker:
00:29:09
like, can you split these? I already did. Yeah, it's all done.



Speaker:
00:29:13
The multitrack delivery, that sparks a question. I feel like there's a debate on the



Speaker:
00:29:16
Internet. I don't know. Maybe this is just my algorithm. You never



Speaker:
00:29:20
know about the multitrack mix session



Speaker:
00:29:24
being the mixer's intellectual property and



Speaker:
00:29:27
not sending it out. Yeah, I will never give anyone a



Speaker:
00:29:31
session. Absolutely not. But you would print



Speaker:
00:29:35
everything, commit it, and send it. Yeah, and it's not



Speaker:
00:29:38
because I feel like everyone should have it. And they can take apart



Speaker:
00:29:42
my thing and see, but they can't see what I did, and they don't know



Speaker:
00:29:46
what the source material was. So whatever, they could hear



Speaker:
00:29:49
a cool delay effect or something, but



Speaker:
00:29:53
it's because the artist is going to need it. They're gonna need it.



Speaker:
00:29:57
And you can't trust labels to hold onto anything. I mean, you know, witness



Speaker:
00:30:00
Sony setting half their catalog on fire, and



Speaker:
00:30:04
you realize they only have one copy of everything, like crazy. So if a



Speaker:
00:30:08
major's gonna do that, a small label, you know, it's gonna



Speaker:
00:30:11
flood. Like something's gonna happen. And this way,



Speaker:
00:30:15
you have the music, which is the whole point. So



Speaker:
00:30:19
it used to bug me when it was a huge amount of work, when it



Speaker:
00:30:22
took forever. No way in hell was I sending that to you. But



Speaker:
00:30:26
now I'm doing it anyway. Now, if you don't want atmos on your record, I'm



Speaker:
00:30:29
not doing that. So there isn't a multitrack to send, but if I'm



Speaker:
00:30:33
doing the atmos then that's what I want. And so once it



Speaker:
00:30:37
exists, I'll send it. If I mix it in stereo and they're getting



Speaker:
00:30:40
someone else to do the atmos for whatever reason, they don't get 50



Speaker:
00:30:44
stems. I split it up reasonably, but they're getting ten or



Speaker:
00:30:48
twelve, you know, because that's the deal. Enough for live, enough



Speaker:
00:30:52
for sync, no crazy overlaps. I mean, that's, that's



Speaker:
00:30:55
rational. So for you it's not, it's not about an IP thing.



Speaker:
00:30:59
It's about you don't want the session because five years from now it's not going



Speaker:
00:31:02
to work. So take these stems. These are better. Yeah, the IP thing would be



Speaker:
00:31:06
the session and that's because, and this



Speaker:
00:31:10
is another thing where we were talking about how production is now mixing. So this



Speaker:
00:31:13
gets very, very murky. But let's say they've



Speaker:
00:31:17
hired somebody to mix the record and it's not going well, but



Speaker:
00:31:21
they like some of the stuff that person has done and then they hire me



Speaker:
00:31:25
to mix the record. I should absolutely not



Speaker:
00:31:28
get what they've done, I should get what they were given. I agree with



Speaker:
00:31:32
that, but at the. Same time I absolutely have



Speaker:
00:31:36
to get whatever created this ridiculously processed rough



Speaker:
00:31:39
mix that sounds amazing. You cannot send me raw



Speaker:
00:31:42
tracks and then a mix that's got



Speaker:
00:31:46
7000 plugins on it. And I would spend my entire life trying



Speaker:
00:31:50
to recreate what was already done so that I could tweak it.



Speaker:
00:31:53
So I have to get something that adds up to the rough. Yeah,



Speaker:
00:31:57
yeah. This makes me feel so much better about my life. The fact that



Speaker:
00:32:01
you're echoing these things because the battle of the rough



Speaker:
00:32:05
mix sounding nothing like the files is just like, it defeats the



Speaker:
00:32:08
purpose because by the time I match your rough mix, a, it's not gonna be



Speaker:
00:32:12
the same, it's going to be my sonic preferences. And b, I'm tired.



Speaker:
00:32:16
Like, I'm no longer creative. And all we did was get back to zero. That's



Speaker:
00:32:19
a huge, huge job matching it. And I'm not good at matching mixes.



Speaker:
00:32:23
I'm terrible at it. But here's the other thing, is that,



Speaker:
00:32:27
you know, we're saying how there's so much mixing as part of the production. Now



Speaker:
00:32:31
on my phone at the gym, it's just cycling music. Now, I've listened to



Speaker:
00:32:35
enough records that Apple suggests things. It does some really



Speaker:
00:32:38
weird stuff sometimes. Like it'll play the same song twice in a row, like



Speaker:
00:32:42
really. But every once in a while stuff comes on



Speaker:
00:32:45
because like, I've listened to something I've done ten years ago, whatever, and



Speaker:
00:32:49
a song will come on and it's like, wow.



Speaker:
00:32:53
And sometimes I think, like, man, that sounds really good.



Speaker:
00:32:57
And it's because I got raw tracks, but there wasn't a rough mix that was



Speaker:
00:33:00
anything other than those raw tracks. Yes. So



Speaker:
00:33:04
things are recorded with intent. The sounds mean something and they're what



Speaker:
00:33:08
they're supposed to be. But I could do anything, and some of those



Speaker:
00:33:11
mixes are better than anything I've done on projects



Speaker:
00:33:15
where it comes to me sounding great. So you'd think, like, oh, well, that's an



Speaker:
00:33:19
easy gig. It already sounds great. Just fix a couple of things. But



Speaker:
00:33:23
that can take as long as mixing from scratch.



Speaker:
00:33:27
But you can't mix from scratch, which means you also can't, like, you're



Speaker:
00:33:31
having to be creative inside someone else's brain at that point,



Speaker:
00:33:34
which is really, really difficult for me. Okay, Dell's



Speaker:
00:33:38
advocate, do you think that those mixes are your favorite mixes because they are all



Speaker:
00:33:42
your sonic taste, or do you think they're



Speaker:
00:33:46
arguably better mixes? Technically? No, I think they're better. Okay. I



Speaker:
00:33:50
really do. I think that there are.



Speaker:
00:33:54
I mean, part of it, obviously, is because it's my taste, so I like



Speaker:
00:33:58
them. Right? Yeah. I mean, it



Speaker:
00:34:01
has to be that, because what's the other filter? I'm listening in. But I



Speaker:
00:34:05
also do think that's why they're better, because I



Speaker:
00:34:09
had. I had control over everything. So it isn't that,



Speaker:
00:34:13
like, I couldn't make the vocal sound better on a really mixed



Speaker:
00:34:16
mix. Like, sure, that's my job and that's what I'm going



Speaker:
00:34:20
to do. But I can't shape everything around the vocal.



Speaker:
00:34:24
I can't get into the mid range the same way, so I can't make



Speaker:
00:34:28
things have separation or space if they're already smashed



Speaker:
00:34:31
together, because then things start to fall apart. So,



Speaker:
00:34:35
yes, it is because it's my filter, but I'm



Speaker:
00:34:38
right. I'm definitely not right.



Speaker:
00:34:42
Oh, that's good. That's good. Okay, so let's do



Speaker:
00:34:46
atmos for a second. We keep touching on it, right. My



Speaker:
00:34:49
perspective of atmos at the moment is that it's



Speaker:
00:34:53
a label artist game, and it's a little bit more about pleasing apple than it



Speaker:
00:34:57
is making art. But you are doing significantly more atmos than I



Speaker:
00:35:00
am. Do you see artists and producers getting excited?



Speaker:
00:35:04
And I should say that I love it and I think we should do more



Speaker:
00:35:07
of it. Do you see artists getting into it? I guess is the



Speaker:
00:35:11
question. When artists hear it on



Speaker:
00:35:15
speakers, their minds are blown. If it's a good mix.



Speaker:
00:35:18
There are so many bad atmos mixes. I mean, there are more



Speaker:
00:35:22
ways you can screw up a song in atmos than in stereo.



Speaker:
00:35:26
Absolutely. You can pull stuff apart, and now the groove is gone, the song is



Speaker:
00:35:29
gone. Nobody wants to hear it, so that's a problem. But



Speaker:
00:35:33
when it's good, and by good, I don't mean it sounds good. I couldn't



Speaker:
00:35:37
care less if stuff sounds good, but it feels like their song.



Speaker:
00:35:41
You cannot do that in stereo. You can't. It's



Speaker:
00:35:45
impossible. And there is something emotionally



Speaker:
00:35:48
that just can destroy you if you're listening to



Speaker:
00:35:52
a good atmos mix that you know you'll enjoy



Speaker:
00:35:56
it in stereo, but you cannot get across what happens. And there are



Speaker:
00:36:00
actually people doing doctorates on why that's the case. Interesting.



Speaker:
00:36:03
This isn't just like, hey, I'm in a room, I like atmos. Like, this is.



Speaker:
00:36:07
It's clinically proven stuff,



Speaker:
00:36:11
but it is a format for speakers, so



Speaker:
00:36:15
that's the thing. And 99% of the consumption is



Speaker:
00:36:19
on headphones. So that requires the ability



Speaker:
00:36:23
of the listener to externalize, to hear something as if it's coming



Speaker:
00:36:26
from elsewhere. And I can't do it



Speaker:
00:36:30
like four or 5 seconds a week, things will explode



Speaker:
00:36:34
out while I'm working on the headphone version of a mix. And then it



Speaker:
00:36:37
collapses again, and then I'm really sad. But



Speaker:
00:36:41
it's not just one service. I mean, it used to be that



Speaker:
00:36:45
people said, oh, well, Apple will bury your album if you don't deliver atmos.



Speaker:
00:36:48
Well, no, they have a lot of playlists that are



Speaker:
00:36:52
immersive only. That's true. Obviously, you



Speaker:
00:36:56
can't be on that playlist, and they're pushing the format. It's not that



Speaker:
00:37:00
they're dumping your record down to the bottom of the bin, it's that your record



Speaker:
00:37:03
can't go on all the stuff they're putting on the front because that's what they're



Speaker:
00:37:07
trying to promote, and now they pay more for it. So there's a little bit



Speaker:
00:37:10
of incentive. I mean, I have no idea what the numbers are, but.



Speaker:
00:37:13
But the format itself, like, talk to anybody who has mixed



Speaker:
00:37:16
atmos. And they just love it.



Speaker:
00:37:20
Absolutely love it. The problem is that people that don't like it have never heard



Speaker:
00:37:24
it in a good room, and they've never got to do it on speakers. And



Speaker:
00:37:27
I just. I feel like. I wish there was more focus on making the binaural



Speaker:
00:37:31
experience better, because then you would bring more people on board.



Speaker:
00:37:34
Well, but, like, one of the things is, if you don't, we can go



Speaker:
00:37:38
geeky for a second. If you don't have a personalized HRTF,



Speaker:
00:37:42
it doesn't matter what they're doing on the encoding side, it's not going to work



Speaker:
00:37:45
well for us it might because you're using a



Speaker:
00:37:49
generic HRTF which is based on something and it's based on



Speaker:
00:37:52
white northern western hemisphere. It's not



Speaker:
00:37:56
demisphere men. Okay, so we have



Speaker:
00:38:00
a better chance of it working for us, but asian women



Speaker:
00:38:04
have absolutely no chance of it working without having a



Speaker:
00:38:07
personalized one. So finally, with phone true depth



Speaker:
00:38:11
cameras and stuff like that, you can get a reasonable HRTF and that will



Speaker:
00:38:15
help. But the good thing is, is that consumer



Speaker:
00:38:18
speakers are getting better sound bars that will hook up to a couple speakers



Speaker:
00:38:22
behind you and a subwoofer. Now all of a sudden you've got a five one



Speaker:
00:38:26
system with up firing tweeters and you can start to get the feel of



Speaker:
00:38:29
it because it's not like, oh, the speakers have to be in the right place.



Speaker:
00:38:33
You just need to feel like you're in the middle of whatever the hell's



Speaker:
00:38:37
going on, instead of it just being in front of you like a television. Yeah,



Speaker:
00:38:41
yeah, I. That's the thing that I'd never gotten into binaural is I'm one of



Speaker:
00:38:44
those people that I don't hear anything behind. I think that's a thing for



Speaker:
00:38:47
some people, right? Some people can. They get the rap and I don't, I just



Speaker:
00:38:51
get the room directly behind. You is actually almost impossible.



Speaker:
00:38:55
Okay. Once it's off to the sides, you should be able to localize a little



Speaker:
00:38:58
bit. And I can't, but it's, I mean, back to the seventies,



Speaker:
00:39:02
there was a, you know, binaural sound effects record or something like that.



Speaker:
00:39:06
And it's because everything is completely



Speaker:
00:39:09
balanced. Delay, frequency, all of that. Just like if



Speaker:
00:39:13
it's right in front of you. Right. So it's almost impossible to hear



Speaker:
00:39:17
that something is behind you. But as it's moving, that's the thing where



Speaker:
00:39:21
people who are lucky get to hear it moving, and I don't, it sounds



Speaker:
00:39:24
weird. Have you. I've heard, I haven't heard it. The Sony



Speaker:
00:39:28
360 tech, I've heard that. That is actually pretty amazing in headphones. Have you



Speaker:
00:39:32
heard that? I've done a lot of Sony 360 mixes. It's a different



Speaker:
00:39:35
headphone algorithm. Again, I never



Speaker:
00:39:39
externalize, so I hear the worst case version of it.



Speaker:
00:39:43
I'm hearing the encoding. I'm not hearing a binaural



Speaker:
00:39:46
mix. All right. Yeah. Anyway, I don't



Speaker:
00:39:50
know. I like atmos. I hope more people get on board, but



Speaker:
00:39:54
everything you just mentioned is, I feel like, the barrier for why



Speaker:
00:39:58
people. Hate on it and for people like us



Speaker:
00:40:02
who can make it to the west coast in January. Go to Namm,



Speaker:
00:40:05
because PMC has a booth. Neumann has a booth. There are probably



Speaker:
00:40:09
others where you can just sit there and listen to people's atmos mixes all



Speaker:
00:40:13
day. And if you don't walk out of there at least wanting to try it,



Speaker:
00:40:16
I'd be surprised if you like music and listening to



Speaker:
00:40:20
music, it's like, I am so excited to play some of my stuff



Speaker:
00:40:24
at NAmm because my room is tiny. Like, it is



Speaker:
00:40:28
literally the smallest room you can put an atmos system in. A



Speaker:
00:40:32
friend of mine who I went to college with works for Dolby, and he was



Speaker:
00:40:35
visiting, he's like, let me measure your room. And he's like, yeah, you've got a



Speaker:
00:40:38
couple inches to spare. Yeah. So I can't



Speaker:
00:40:42
hear the separation in the speakers at all. Right. Right.



Speaker:
00:40:46
But I get to Namm, put it up in one of those booths, and



Speaker:
00:40:50
it's just awesome. That's amazing. And the



Speaker:
00:40:53
PMC booth is just stacked with speakers. It's like, more speakers and chairs in



Speaker:
00:40:57
there. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing. It's crazy.



Speaker:
00:41:00
It's amazing. Okay, I wanted to ask you. We'll step away



Speaker:
00:41:04
from atmos parallel compression. I feel like a lot



Speaker:
00:41:08
of people, when they're starting out,



Speaker:
00:41:12
they're using parallel compression because they hear engineers like yourself talk



Speaker:
00:41:16
about it, and they just take an 1176, they hit all buttons in,



Speaker:
00:41:20
they pin the meter, they push it up until something sounds bigger, but they never



Speaker:
00:41:23
think about that compressed signal. So can we talk about the actual



Speaker:
00:41:27
compressed signal? How are you approaching that compression



Speaker:
00:41:31
and attack and release? And what are you thinking about? Well, you're not going to



Speaker:
00:41:34
like my answer that much because it doesn't matter what it sounds



Speaker:
00:41:38
like on its own at all. Like, not even a little bit. Okay.



Speaker:
00:41:42
Because, like, one of the drum parallel crush things



Speaker:
00:41:45
in my template, and it's been there since the very first time I



Speaker:
00:41:49
was doing anything in the box, which is before I had a console. It's



Speaker:
00:41:53
Fairchild plugin. Right? Right. You put that on drums? Sure you



Speaker:
00:41:57
do. So it's Fairchild. It's set up kind of like it would be on



Speaker:
00:42:00
drums. If you listen to it on its own, it's pretending to be a



Speaker:
00:42:04
fairchild, which means it's pretending to have low end and be



Speaker:
00:42:07
slow and whatever. When you blend it in as a parallel thing, stuff gets



Speaker:
00:42:11
brighter. Yeah. Okay. So I don't know



Speaker:
00:42:15
why. So there you go. Okay, here's the



Speaker:
00:42:18
thing. A parallel compressor should be more compressed than



Speaker:
00:42:22
you would ever put on the insert directly because



Speaker:
00:42:26
you only want to blend in a little bit. But the way to think about



Speaker:
00:42:29
parallel compression in general is if you put an



Speaker:
00:42:32
insert compressor on something, it reacts to the loud stuff right below



Speaker:
00:42:36
the threshold. It leaves everything alone above the threshold. It turns it down



Speaker:
00:42:40
a lot. When? Well, if you're compressing a lot



Speaker:
00:42:44
at a high ratio, when you've got something



Speaker:
00:42:47
absolutely crushed and you're blending it in,



Speaker:
00:42:51
you still have your uncompressed signal. So you've got full range with



Speaker:
00:42:55
all of your transients. All the stuff above what the threshold would have



Speaker:
00:42:58
been completely untouched. And then you start



Speaker:
00:43:02
slamming this slab of the same sound, but



Speaker:
00:43:06
doesn't have the dynamic range, and you're blending it in.



Speaker:
00:43:10
It's not exactly this, but technically you're making the quiet



Speaker:
00:43:14
stuff louder instead of the loud stuff quieter. And the



Speaker:
00:43:18
character of that is what I like. It has nothing to do



Speaker:
00:43:21
with. It's bigger if you do it one way or whatever. I



Speaker:
00:43:25
love the sound of an uncompressed vocal. I love the sound of



Speaker:
00:43:29
uncompressed drums. The transients on uncompressed



Speaker:
00:43:33
kicks and snares are like, they surprise you. They're so



Speaker:
00:43:36
awesome. You start compressing, the drum kit will sound cool, you'll get some great



Speaker:
00:43:40
noise going on. But the kick and snare don't make you laugh when they're way



Speaker:
00:43:44
too loud. Like that's a thing. There's some emotional thing to



Speaker:
00:43:48
really getting pummeled with the transients. Yeah. So you use parallel



Speaker:
00:43:51
compression to get the drums so that you can slam a bunch of guitars over



Speaker:
00:43:55
them, but still hear them. But you still have your transients,



Speaker:
00:43:59
so that's why. But to be fair,



Speaker:
00:44:02
over the last year, year and a half, I've gotten to the point



Speaker:
00:44:06
where I am using almost no parallel compression anymore.



Speaker:
00:44:09
Wow. Almost none. The rear bus hasn't made



Speaker:
00:44:13
an appearance in a mix in probably a year.



Speaker:
00:44:18
How are you getting that same quiet stuff



Speaker:
00:44:22
up? I don't know.



Speaker:
00:44:26
I mean, part of it is if I'm mixing something that has already



Speaker:
00:44:29
been mixed, well, then I don't need it. There's no room for it



Speaker:
00:44:33
anyway. That's also true. But even on the stuff that isn't like that,



Speaker:
00:44:37
it's not about technically what I get at the other end.



Speaker:
00:44:41
It's that I no longer like the sound of it as much. Right. So



Speaker:
00:44:45
mixes are taking me longer because I'm not just like ooh, cool.



Speaker:
00:44:48
That is my starting point, because I really do have to do everything



Speaker:
00:44:52
individually, which I'm sure part of the Internet will be very happy, because



Speaker:
00:44:56
apparently putting anything on your mix bus is cheating. I didn't realize that,



Speaker:
00:44:59
but everything I do is bespoke. But you're



Speaker:
00:45:03
silly if you don't have a template of some sort, because it's, like automating



Speaker:
00:45:07
stuff. You're going to be building the same stuff over and over and over.



Speaker:
00:45:11
But, yeah, I just don't like the sound of it as much. And my



Speaker:
00:45:15
mixes are a little quieter because of it, which is crazy for me because I'm



Speaker:
00:45:18
the loud guy. Yeah, but parallel compression,



Speaker:
00:45:22
don't spend a huge amount of time listening to what the parallel thing is. Spend



Speaker:
00:45:25
a huge amount of time listening to it as you blend it in as a



Speaker:
00:45:29
parallel thing, which I think. Is the best



Speaker:
00:45:32
advice all around for all mixing people are like, what's your mixing tip? I'm like,



Speaker:
00:45:36
when you're turning the guitars up, listen to the vocal. Like, listen to



Speaker:
00:45:40
everything else. Like, yeah, you're right. Solo, we all. We all know solo



Speaker:
00:45:43
doesn't always help. Yeah, I mean, it's good to find out, like, what it is.



Speaker:
00:45:47
Yeah, but then it doesn't matter what you do until it's back in context.



Speaker:
00:45:51
So. Listening to everything you said, I translate as faster



Speaker:
00:45:55
attack, though, because you. Do you want to kill those transients in those parallel tracks



Speaker:
00:45:58
or you let those live? No, because it'll actually double them up. I mean,



Speaker:
00:46:02
compressors in general. I'm slow attack, fast release. Okay.



Speaker:
00:46:06
Okay. But, yeah.



Speaker:
00:46:10
Before we get into my closing questions, I wanted to ask you. Well, first I



Speaker:
00:46:13
want to say thank you for always sharing so much. You're on so many podcasts,



Speaker:
00:46:17
you share so much with the engineering community, so thank you. But is there a



Speaker:
00:46:21
question that you always wish somebody would ask you?



Speaker:
00:46:27
No. Perfect. I mean, I could make a



Speaker:
00:46:30
joke about, you know, ask me what I want for dinner.



Speaker:
00:46:34
I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I'm lucky that I do get to



Speaker:
00:46:37
talk about this stuff all the time, and I do mix with the



Speaker:
00:46:41
masters seminars. Like, that's one thing the Adele record got me. They got in



Speaker:
00:46:45
touch and wanted me to do a mix of the masters seminar, so I've done



Speaker:
00:46:48
13 of them now, 14, something like that, and I just did one a



Speaker:
00:46:52
few weeks ago, and I'm basically



Speaker:
00:46:55
talking for a week, so I get to



Speaker:
00:46:59
say everything. But what's great about it is you put your process



Speaker:
00:47:03
into words, and some people, like oh, don't inspect the process. But I



Speaker:
00:47:07
like to inspect the process because not only do



Speaker:
00:47:10
you have to articulate, you don't have to say why you do it,



Speaker:
00:47:14
but you say what it is that you're actually doing, but also because I do



Speaker:
00:47:18
them every year I see the stuff that's changed and



Speaker:
00:47:21
obviously changing from the console to the laptop was a big deal,



Speaker:
00:47:25
but there's so much that changes every single



Speaker:
00:47:29
year about how I think about things and what I do that it's



Speaker:
00:47:33
great, but it means that I've managed to say everything



Speaker:
00:47:36
at least a thousand times. I mean, is there anything you feel



Speaker:
00:47:40
like no one's asked me? I mean, no, that's one of. When I was



Speaker:
00:47:44
like, oh, I got to reach out to Andrew. He's on my dream list. And



Speaker:
00:47:46
I was like, like, what the fuck am I going to ask him? Well,



Speaker:
00:47:50
see, okay, so here's what we'll do. We'll take up that time with me



Speaker:
00:47:53
saying that everybody has to go listen to low roar, the artist low roar.



Speaker:
00:47:57
Which I started listening to this morning, sounds amazing. So there you



Speaker:
00:48:01
go. I believe that right before this podcast,



Speaker:
00:48:04
I may have recorded the last thing on the last



Speaker:
00:48:08
album. So cool. Amazing. Very depressing



Speaker:
00:48:11
in a way. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you guys can look



Speaker:
00:48:15
at the Internet and see what's up with loroar. It's very sad, but



Speaker:
00:48:18
this album is now almost done. That's great.



Speaker:
00:48:22
I just thought of a question that no one's asking you, probably because this question



Speaker:
00:48:26
doesn't exist. I meant to ask it earlier, so I'm cheating a little bit, trying



Speaker:
00:48:29
to figure out how to get this question in. Back to AI mixing. What do



Speaker:
00:48:33
you think about the idea of this is basically what Spike presumably has



Speaker:
00:48:36
done from what we've readdeveloped. Training an AI on your



Speaker:
00:48:40
own work to then operate as an assistant for yourself.



Speaker:
00:48:44
Yeah, I think that that's



Speaker:
00:48:48
great. But I think again, and I'm really



Speaker:
00:48:51
curious to know what they did with Spike's stuff.



Speaker:
00:48:55
To get a good model, you need



Speaker:
00:48:59
hundreds of thousands of things that it learns



Speaker:
00:49:02
from 10,000 things. I mean, Spike



Speaker:
00:49:06
has mixed a metric fuck ton of records, but I



Speaker:
00:49:10
don't know that he's mixed hundreds of thousands of songs. So is it



Speaker:
00:49:14
enough? Maybe it's been supplemented with



Speaker:
00:49:18
stuff he likes. You know, I don't know. I don't know what they're



Speaker:
00:49:21
doing at all. But, like, for me, what the



Speaker:
00:49:25
AI is amazing for is separation of things. Like the



Speaker:
00:49:29
low roar record. Most of it was tracked with Ryan at a piano,



Speaker:
00:49:32
singing. But I needed to do stuff with the vocals. And



Speaker:
00:49:36
I actually managed to split the bleed out of both the



Speaker:
00:49:40
piano mics and the vocal mics so that I could treat them



Speaker:
00:49:43
completely separately. And if I wanted the vocal bleed



Speaker:
00:49:47
from the piano mics because it was part of the vocal sound, I have



Speaker:
00:49:50
it separate. But it's not in the piano mics.



Speaker:
00:49:54
Yeah, that's huge. And that's AI. But that's been



Speaker:
00:49:58
trained on probably a couple of million recordings of vocal



Speaker:
00:50:01
and piano to be able to do that. Now, did you do that? Was that



Speaker:
00:50:05
with RX or was it with something else? No, that was with



Speaker:
00:50:08
Steinberg spectralayers, which at the moment, if you're not a



Speaker:
00:50:11
total geek and running stuff in these Google collabs



Speaker:
00:50:15
online, by far the best piece of software I've used for



Speaker:
00:50:19
this stuff. It can be a little clunky, but when it works, it's



Speaker:
00:50:22
insanely good. And its tools are crazy.



Speaker:
00:50:26
Absolutely crazy. There's one, they're like weird



Speaker:
00:50:29
magic Photoshop select tools where one, you



Speaker:
00:50:32
can drag it along what looks like the fundamental and it will



Speaker:
00:50:36
grab it and all the harmonics. So you can grab a



Speaker:
00:50:39
piano note with all of its harmonics and pull



Speaker:
00:50:43
it out manually and copy it to a different layer.



Speaker:
00:50:47
And when it separates things, if you don't mess with it bit for bit,



Speaker:
00:50:51
it goes back together. There's zero audio loss. Every bit is



Speaker:
00:50:54
somewhere. That's wild. It's ridiculously cool. I mixed a



Speaker:
00:50:58
record where a lot of the drums were recorded, where the



Speaker:
00:51:01
overheads weren't cymbal mics, they were absolutely the kit and that was



Speaker:
00:51:05
a big part of the drum sound. But on a couple of the songs there



Speaker:
00:51:09
was some symbol that was crazy loud and I needed



Speaker:
00:51:13
to turn the cymbals down for 16 bars, split



Speaker:
00:51:17
the overheads into cymbals, kick, snare, turn the cymbals down.



Speaker:
00:51:20
What? And the cake and snare don't change at all.



Speaker:
00:51:24
And this is for stereo mixing. A lot of people talk about the demixing to



Speaker:
00:51:28
make yourself more source material for atmos or whatever. Spectral



Speaker:
00:51:31
layers might be the best money I've spent in years.



Speaker:
00:51:35
It's incredible. That is. That is amazing. Well, I'm



Speaker:
00:51:39
glad that we pushed that question into the end. Even though



Speaker:
00:51:42
I almost let it go. I didn't answer your question.



Speaker:
00:51:46
I mean, look, the idea of being able to train your own stuff is



Speaker:
00:51:50
incredible. None of us have enough material to make it actually work



Speaker:
00:51:54
very well. I never thought about that thing that sucks. Like with the Beatles



Speaker:
00:51:57
stuff that they did, separating



Speaker:
00:52:01
the things so that they could do the Atmos mixes it is



Speaker:
00:52:05
a much more specific data set because they had the recording.



Speaker:
00:52:08
But then if they wanted to split the bass out, they had every single



Speaker:
00:52:12
performance of that bass part. So



Speaker:
00:52:16
it knows what order the notes are coming in, and that's how they trained it.



Speaker:
00:52:19
So the Peter Jackson thing is trained with every,



Speaker:
00:52:23
like, that model only knows about that song, period.



Speaker:
00:52:26
That's nuts. That's it. But it can pick the bass



Speaker:
00:52:30
out because it's always Paul playing the bass, same



Speaker:
00:52:34
line, everything's the same. That's wild. Do you think that Peter Jackson



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00:52:37
Tech will ever enter the world?



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00:52:41
I don't know. I don't know. There's always talk of it. But again,



Speaker:
00:52:45
I think that it's not generalized tech,



Speaker:
00:52:49
it's specific. So you'd have to go train on how to train it



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00:52:53
to get anything done. And how many of us have datasets that



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00:52:56
are the right thing? And I'm going by hearsay. I've never talked to



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00:53:00
anybody, but I've heard that that's what it does.



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00:53:04
They trained it by other performances of the same part.



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00:53:07
So what do you have as a job where that would



Speaker:
00:53:11
work? Nothing. I've never in



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00:53:15
my life had something where that would work. That's



Speaker:
00:53:18
true. So, you know, that's amazing. All right, well,



Speaker:
00:53:22
I know you've got to get back to your day. I've got the last two



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00:53:25
questions that I hit everybody with, which I was. Supposed to look at, and I



Speaker:
00:53:28
didn't. Well, if you didn't, it makes it more fun.



Speaker:
00:53:33
Was there a time in your career that you ever chose to redefine what success



Speaker:
00:53:36
meant to you? Well, we already talked about it, actually. Those



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00:53:39
projects where it was like, if this isn't huge, then everything's wrong



Speaker:
00:53:43
with the world and all of that. And, yeah, I've tried, and



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00:53:47
it's really difficult, but I have tried



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00:53:50
constantly to make the success that I



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00:53:53
get to work on some stuff that I still want to listen to when I'm



Speaker:
00:53:56
done that I'm actually really proud of,



Speaker:
00:54:00
and that's hard, but it's, you know,



Speaker:
00:54:04
when it happens, it. That's what. That's why we're doing it. None



Speaker:
00:54:07
of us are doing it to get rich. You know, I bought a modular, so



Speaker:
00:54:11
I'm doing all right. But, you know, you're not doing it to be on MTV



Speaker:
00:54:15
Cribs, which anyone under the age of 30 won't even know what that is.



Speaker:
00:54:19
We're doing it to make music that we love. And



Speaker:
00:54:22
we're in a position, the people who do what we do, where we can't



Speaker:
00:54:26
make the music ourselves. So when we can work on a project with a



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00:54:30
musician or an artist that is making the music we wish we could



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00:54:33
do, that's the best. I mean, what's better than that? Nothing. Nothing.



Speaker:
00:54:37
Nothing. I think people think that when you're at the top of



Speaker:
00:54:41
your career that every day you're doing, like, your favorite song ever. But



Speaker:
00:54:44
that's just not. That's not the case. Oh, no. Absolutely not. I



Speaker:
00:54:48
mean, I'm so lucky to have the low Roar project because



Speaker:
00:54:52
for six albums over, I mean, I



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00:54:55
work. I've been working with Ryan for twelve or 13 years or something like



Speaker:
00:54:59
that. I've had album after album. That is my



Speaker:
00:55:03
favorite music I've ever worked on. But that's six



Speaker:
00:55:07
records. Exactly. Only six. And there's other stuff I've worked on



Speaker:
00:55:10
I love. I mean, there's lots of stuff I've been very lucky to work on,



Speaker:
00:55:14
stuff that I like, but. Yeah, but the other part is you



Speaker:
00:55:18
do do this to pay your bills as well. But if you can't



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00:55:22
take that part of it, then do something else to pay your bills so



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00:55:25
that you still love it when you work doing what we're doing. Because if



Speaker:
00:55:29
you start not liking this, what's the point? It's



Speaker:
00:55:33
brutal. It is a brutal, horrible job where everything you



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00:55:36
do is completely subjective. You can think you've done the best thing ever



Speaker:
00:55:40
that took you five weeks, and they just go, nope, I don't like it.



Speaker:
00:55:44
Yes, yes. It reminds me of my January.



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00:55:49
You're just like, this is the. I love this. And they're like, we're not gonna



Speaker:
00:55:52
use it. You're like, anytime. I really like it. They hate it.



Speaker:
00:55:57
Yeah. I can almost say that as well. Yeah. Every time. It's my



Speaker:
00:56:01
favorite. It's not theirs. Yeah. Okay, so last



Speaker:
00:56:04
question before you go. What is your current biggest goal and what's the next smallest



Speaker:
00:56:08
step you're going to take to go towards it? I really should have



Speaker:
00:56:12
read the questions beforehand. Like, Tony



Speaker:
00:56:15
Maserati has this great thing where he has a yearly



Speaker:
00:56:19
review where he does exactly what you're talking about. Like, okay, so what are my



Speaker:
00:56:23
goals? How am I going to get there? And he's got like, okay, here are



Speaker:
00:56:26
the steps I'm going to take. And then he has a meeting with himself in



Speaker:
00:56:29
a year to say, like, okay, have I done that? Have my goals changed? What



Speaker:
00:56:33
did I, you know, which I think is great. I mean, a short



Speaker:
00:56:37
term goal, just selfishly, is



Speaker:
00:56:40
I'm going to try and get bounce factory out there a little bit more



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00:56:44
because I love working on it. I actually love the coding because it isn't



Speaker:
00:56:47
subjective and I would love for that to kind of



Speaker:
00:56:50
cushion. So I don't have to work on records. I don't want to. And, you



Speaker:
00:56:54
know, again, people think you're all day, every day. That is



Speaker:
00:56:58
absolutely not the case. I need to work. I have to work



Speaker:
00:57:02
because I like electricity and water and food.



Speaker:
00:57:06
So, you know, like, everybody, again, in a good



Speaker:
00:57:09
position. So I don't want to get, you know, trolled over this. And then



Speaker:
00:57:13
the next thing is to just try



Speaker:
00:57:17
and find, like, what is the next low roar thing going



Speaker:
00:57:20
to be for me, if there is one? There may not be. I mean, a



Speaker:
00:57:23
lot of people would never even have one, so I'm



Speaker:
00:57:27
super lucky. So I've got, what am I going to



Speaker:
00:57:31
do with the legacy of Loroar? Like, I'm going to be doing a vinyl box



Speaker:
00:57:34
set and things like that, but I don't want it to just disappear. So



Speaker:
00:57:38
I have no idea what the first step is with that, though. That's unknown. So



Speaker:
00:57:42
that doesn't answer your question at all. It's good, though. I'm with it.



Speaker:
00:57:45
Well, I think it highlights diversity, and I feel like it doesn't



Speaker:
00:57:49
matter how long you've done this. Having diversity in



Speaker:
00:57:54
income allows you to do the records you love because the record you



Speaker:
00:57:57
love might not be the one that's going to pay your bills. So if something



Speaker:
00:58:00
else does, whether it's music related or not,



Speaker:
00:58:05
that makes your life better as a musician? Yeah, absolutely. I mean,



Speaker:
00:58:08
I love making the plugins because I'm making plugins that I actually wish



Speaker:
00:58:12
existed, but at the same time, that's a little bit of extra money and



Speaker:
00:58:16
get enough of those things, and it just takes some pressure



Speaker:
00:58:19
off. Yeah. Which is good, because I think all of us can smell a



Speaker:
00:58:23
gig that's going to really suck, and it may have nothing to do with the



Speaker:
00:58:26
source material or the music. It's usually about the people



Speaker:
00:58:30
and, you know, going in that you really wish you could say no. Yeah.



Speaker:
00:58:34
Yeah. Everybody's been there. Everybody's been there. If you enjoyed this one and



Speaker:
00:58:37
it's got you thinking about how you can. If you could better build your sonic



Speaker:
00:58:40
identity as a producer or engineer, then you're gonna want to check out my interview



Speaker:
00:58:43
with Tony Hoffer, the producer mixer behind Beck, Midnight Vultures, the kooks,



Speaker:
00:58:47
inside in, inside out. M 83, midnight city and many more.