025 When Work Never Feels Finished

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Welcome to Pixels and Priorities,
a podcast at the intersection
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of product and design.
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I'm Metsy Rose, product
manager and strategist.
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Joined by my co-host, J Schuh, design
strategist, educator, and creative mind.
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Each episode we explore how designers,
builders, and product leaders navigate
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constant change, create meaningful
products, and grow their careers.
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We're continuing our
discussion with Whitney Shrek.
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Whitney S Consulting, which you can find
at whitisms.com, provides leadership
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and executive coaching services as well
as HR consultations to help companies
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and individuals define, develop, and
deliver better work environments.
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Last episode, we talked about using
frameworks and methods and tools such as
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your assessments to understand ourselves,
improve our relationship building and
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psychological safety, and succeed in
our careers regardless of the work
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environment that we find ourselves in.
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Whitney, the environments that product
and design professionals find themselves
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in today are shifting faster than the
organizations and leadership can manage.
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We are all working with tools
that are constantly shifting,
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especially with the rise of AI.
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And even some of our roles are merging
and shifting while we are in the roles.
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It feels like we're building the
plane while it's still in the air.
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So Whitney, can you talk to
us about managing the cycle of
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stress in a world where our own
roles are constantly shifting?
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This comes up so often in
whether I'm coaching, whether
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I'm at a speaking engagement.
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It used to be about, "How do we
have effective communication?
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How do we handle hard conversations?" Now
it's "How do we come up for air?" So it's,
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We have to come back to the source of it.
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What is the issue?
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What's the problem?
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And sometimes it's the workplace,
sometimes it's, expectations,
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priorities, and those things always
feel really big and out here.
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I can't do anything about it.
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I'll be more specific, The other
day I was on a call, and I have a
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coaching client who, he does this.
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He's like, " You know, I'm
putting out fires all the time.
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They're shoveling things at me.
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I don't have control over my days."
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Whitney, I'd love to be able to tell
you that, on Mondays and Wednesdays,
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I'll do X, Y, Z at this hour." "But
then again, I might have somebody
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calling in, and I need to, deal with
this piece of it." And it's true.
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He has to deal with
pivots on a regular basis.
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When something feels really super
out of control, and we don't have, a
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way to finish the loop or the stress
cycle, especially for this particular
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person, , he's been on the back
end of, a really long loan process.
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Some of these things take months.
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Some of them you're working with
this person for a couple of years.
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Mm. So there's no end point, and
there are highs and lows, and it's,
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it feels really, overwhelming.
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We were talking and I said, " what do
you do, , outside of work that helps you
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close the loop?" For everyone listening,
what I mean by close the loop, if you've
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never read the book Burnout by the
Nagoski sisters, they're two doctors.
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One of them has a doctor in medicine
and one has a doctor in sex education.
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It seems weird that they
would come together.
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They're twins.
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But they wrote a book called Burnout,
and one of the things they address is
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closing that stress loop, stress cycle.
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When I was talking to my coaching client,
he goes, "I don't know what you mean."
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It's like a story within a story, right?
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So here I am telling him a story of
a woman that I was coaching for just
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singular professional development.
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She came to me not within an
organization, but on her own.
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She's very, type A, top of her class.
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She's an achiever.
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She was pursuing professional development
from me, she was like, "I will fix
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myself." Then, mid-professional
development she got pregnant.
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She's like, "I'm just trying to figure out
how to surrender and do all these things."
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The song Surrender doesn't come
naturally to me is just playing
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in the background, for her.
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One day she got on the call and she
didn't know how to address me because
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she was like, " I know I'm supposed
to do X, Y, Z. I didn't do it.
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I know I'm supposed- to tell you
ahead of time that I didn't do it so
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that we have enough to talk about."
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I said, "We still have enough to
talk about on this call, but walk me
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through what's happening." She goes,
"I don't know what's happening, but,
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"instead of doing this over here
for my business, I cleaned out my
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cabinets and I rearranged my drawers."
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, "I don't know why I did that." I did,
but, you have to slow walk people
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sometimes to, like, the epiphany.
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She goes, " I feel so stupid.
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" "What is happening? I feel like I'm
losing my capacity with time, and, I'm
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frustrated," and she's created more
stress around it than she needed to.
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I said, "Well, what it could be is that
you're just wanting to start something
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that you can complete and finish, and
it's done." She goes, "What do you
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mean?" And I said, "Well, you clean
out a drawer, and it's done." Mm-hmm.
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Like, you organize it, and it looks good,
and it's completed, and it's finished.
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But starting a business and then
finding out that you're pregnant, and
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then trying to figure out, well, the
timeline that I originally had is no
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longer in my control, and I don't even
know if I wanna still do this, I'm
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in this limbo, this liminal space.
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As I was telling that story to my other
coaching client, he said, mowing the lawn
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I was like, "What do you mean?" He goes,
"When I mow the lawn." He goes, "My wife
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says that I'm just a different person.
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I get on that rider, and that's
how I close the loop when I
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get home." "It looks great.
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It feels good.
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I started it, and I finished it." "I
like being outside." "I'm inside all
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the time doing my job." He goes, "And
I have a completely different energy."
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I have another client, the way she
closes the loop, she sets up her
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tennis shoes in her living room.
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When she comes home, she swaps out, she
calls her hard pants, for her workout
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pants that are like loose ones, puts her
tennis shoes on, and she goes for a walk.
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She closes the loop.
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There's something to be said about this
starting and finishing, the moving of
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the body, like this connection to a
task or movement that allows us to let
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go, lets our brain kind of process.
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When we're sitting still for
all these hours in a day,
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that's already creating tension.
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A little nugget about me is when I was
trying to start my business, I had to
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have other supplemental income, and, I
also couldn't pay for a gym membership
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anymore, so I became a yoga teacher.
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So win-win, I could teach yoga, and
I could take yoga, and it helped me
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with my voice, and it was supplemental
income it was a well-rounded, system.
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In that process, you're learning,
what you're capable of doing.
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What works for you?
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What is helping you to reduce stress?
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Yoga became that for me.
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So figure out what works for
you, what ends that stress cycle.
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In yoga, I also learned a
little bit about anatomy.
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When we're sitting, we carry our
daily stress in our shoulders.
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People who get knots in their neck, it's
because all day we're slowly doing this.
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Our ears and our shoulders
are starting to fuse.
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And then our hips are where we carry
our, our deep emotional stress.
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When we're sitting in a position we
were never meant to be sitting in for
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long periods of time, no wonder it
feels good to get up and move and,
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work these things out in our bodies.
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And you're like, "Whitney, are
you trying to tell me that the
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way we end, these heavy stress
cycles is just moving our bodies?"
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It's a piece of it.
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'Cause if we're sitting for
too long, what happens is all
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that stuff stays in one place.
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When you look at, positions that work
on stress release in their bodies, the
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somatic nature of the body is when we
walk or when we move or when we shake
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our hands, we're letting go of stress.
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We even a pose called the power pose.
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When we wanna release testosterone in
our body, we just stand with our feet
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hip distance apart, put our hands on
our hips, and we take deep breaths.
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Because throughout the day,
we're shallow breathing.
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We're not even breathing
fully into our lungs.
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We stare at screens for so long.
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I did a talk about four years
ago on the fact that people don't
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blink as much as they used to.
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We have to come back to the source.
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Let's ask questions about what's
happening to my body right now.
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Okay, I'm feeling really anxious.
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Is it my job?
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Is it, for aging mortal
women, is it perimenopause?
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It just spirals up here.
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So when we move our body, that
mind-body connection is really powerful.
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I just wrote a post about play.
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There is research behind
play and what happens.
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We have just completely, written
play out of our lives as adults.
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We did it naturally as children.
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What does play do?
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It builds resilience, creative
problem-solving, , challenging
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your mind and, it's this healthy
competition to, connection and
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bonding and, break down and repair.
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There's levity to it.
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There's this force that
brings us together.
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We look at, how powerful game is
for individuals who are into sports.
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I'm not a huge sports person,
but I can appreciate the culture.
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It allows us to blow off
steam, in, safe ways.
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Like, "What the hmm are you doing?
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I can't believe you." And
that's, we're allowed.
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It's like it's allowed, right?
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You can't do that anywhere else.
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But during play and during games,
and we do this, we're allowing
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parts of ourselves to emerge that
we don't have any other space for.
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Learning how to, close the loop, figuring
out what closing that loop looks like,
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figuring out what moving your body
looks like for you, and reintroducing
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play is powerful, and it's joy too.
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Anne Lamott, I think, Wrote this.
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She said, "Joy is a healing
balm." What does a balm do?
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Is, it soothes those areas of us
that, it's an ache that suddenly
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feels like it's being tended to.
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And we need that.
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We need levity, we need
creativity, but we don't foster it.
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We're watching other people do it.
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There are some really cool things
that I saw on Instagram, and
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I'm like, "Oh, I love that."
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These girls that are having,
clipping parties for, plants.
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I'm a green thumb.
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Or, charcuterie parties where people
are bringing different charcuterie
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boards, and there's something so
connective and freeing and playful,
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and it's nice, there's this sense
of something that's missing that
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was curated for us in our childhood,
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and then we have to create
spaces for that in our lives.
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And you're like, "Whitney, that's just
adding something else to my list." I know.
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Mm-hmm.
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But it's the tension of that
thing that actually gives you
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a greater reward in return.
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For people that are struggling with
burnout or people that have been
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laid off and they're struggling
to find a job- It can be easy
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to say, "Hey, find joy," right?
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Find these things.
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But that's a heavy stress to be under
and, and have a- And I would say, I would
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double down even more, 'cause I would
say you do need joy in those moments.
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I have… I came from a background
that is, full of adversity.
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Was born homeless.
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I had a single mother.
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I'm a biracial child.
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I know what it's like to be
in an environment where you're
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going from paycheck to paycheck.
00:11:30.025 --> 00:11:33.475
I also know what it's like to be
the person going from paycheck to
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paycheck, I used to roll my eyes
at people that were in positions of
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privilege and be like, "Must be nice,"
, 'cause you can feel those stresses.
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I'll tell you what I remember the
most in those times that really got
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me through was laughing my tail off
at my friend who did something stupid.
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We move towards things that give us life.
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We have to look for signs of life.
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In the world of psychology,
we look for that.
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Hope, is the thread of life.
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I don't mean some whimsical,
emotional feeling.
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I mean, we have these, goals that we're
trying to move towards, we're casting a
00:12:09.435 --> 00:12:11.415
vision that we're trying to move towards.
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It's that thread that combines us.
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It tethers us, and we
find that in other people.
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We find that in relationships, and we've
moved so far away from relationships
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that we've made them on a screen.
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Mm-hmm.
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They don't exist anymore,
and we don't really connect.
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We don't even communicate our
thoughts to one another anymore.
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Therefore, how are we
really, truly sharpening?
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We're absorbing, we're
absorbing, we're absorbing.
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We don't know what to do with it now.
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So then we get really drained and
we can't even do anything with
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the ideas that we're getting.
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I think these simple acts of
connection are so important.
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I remember my great-grandparents
taught me this.
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I would go to my grandmother's
house, and, she had long legs.
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She used to be a great walker,
but she had a lung condition.
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And, the one thing that she
did every single day was play.
00:13:00.729 --> 00:13:05.889
She had a crossword puzzle, and when the
family would come over or if we were all
00:13:05.889 --> 00:13:07.559
kinda hanging out, we got Scrabble out.
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We got Scrabble or cards.
00:13:09.619 --> 00:13:12.969
And there's something about that
connective tissue, that levity, that
00:13:13.339 --> 00:13:15.449
helps us endure really hard times.
00:13:15.449 --> 00:13:19.219
Can you imagine being somebody who
once was able to, get up and do all
00:13:19.219 --> 00:13:20.509
these kinds of things for yourself?
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You could sit and wallow.
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We have to remember that we have the
capacity to not lament, that sometimes
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when we change the energy in the room,
and it's not false, rose-colored lenses.
00:13:35.339 --> 00:13:40.139
It's saying, "I'm choosing even
in the hard moments to laugh." Mm.
00:13:40.929 --> 00:13:44.889
"I'm choosing to break those hard
spaces." And that's what we learn from
00:13:44.889 --> 00:13:49.989
comedians, they can, take something
so heavy and so dark and somehow twist
00:13:49.989 --> 00:13:52.399
it into something we can laugh at.
00:13:52.929 --> 00:13:53.969
My counselor asked me that.
00:13:53.979 --> 00:13:57.689
She was like, "What do you think that
you bring to your own lived experience?"
00:13:57.719 --> 00:14:01.789
I said, "My writing is one of them,"
but I think levity is part of it.
00:14:02.239 --> 00:14:05.129
How do we cultivate that
levity in our lives?
00:14:05.219 --> 00:14:07.629
It's not that we're ignoring hardship.
00:14:07.629 --> 00:14:09.039
It's not that we're ignoring pain.
00:14:09.499 --> 00:14:12.909
It's that we're still creating
space for us to laugh, to
00:14:12.909 --> 00:14:15.949
play, to connect, to engage.
00:14:16.579 --> 00:14:19.318
Those are the parts of
ourselves that keep us in line.
00:14:19.411 --> 00:14:21.531
There are all other kinds of
scientific research behind what
00:14:21.531 --> 00:14:27.021
actually it does for you in the long
run and how it keeps building those
00:14:27.021 --> 00:14:32.701
resilience skills, that creative
problem-solving, so when that time comes.
00:14:32.981 --> 00:14:38.131
I think I heard Brene Brown say,
"Preparedness is the best key." "It's
00:14:38.141 --> 00:14:44.621
not the, the highly opportunistic
people or the highly, , optimistic
00:14:44.621 --> 00:14:46.011
people it's the prepared."
00:14:46.421 --> 00:14:51.831
I think part of trying to get yourself
from one place to the next is not
00:14:51.831 --> 00:14:55.891
waiting for the moment of joy to arrive,
but it's creating an invitation for
00:14:55.891 --> 00:15:01.111
joy to still be sustained so that you
have it in the dark times, and in the
00:15:01.111 --> 00:15:05.541
times where things are going great,
whether you're in the seat of, trial
00:15:05.541 --> 00:15:06.881
or you're in the seat of blessing.
00:15:07.951 --> 00:15:13.451
I had not thought about these things
as a list of ways to try to close the
00:15:13.451 --> 00:15:19.581
loop, and as I heard you give each of
those examples, I could see this year
00:15:19.591 --> 00:15:24.761
I have intentionally tried to build
ways to close the loop without even
00:15:24.761 --> 00:15:26.601
knowing that was something I need to do.
00:15:26.881 --> 00:15:31.451
I've been searching for ways to
have planned events, some of which,
00:15:31.451 --> 00:15:34.921
Whitney, like we have like witchy
weekends where I'll come up- and we'll
00:15:34.921 --> 00:15:36.491
have like a fun weekend together.
00:15:36.731 --> 00:15:38.431
We'll try a new hobby together.
00:15:38.461 --> 00:15:39.581
We've done archery.
00:15:39.591 --> 00:15:39.611
Mm-hmm.
00:15:39.621 --> 00:15:40.491
We've done pottery.
00:15:40.901 --> 00:15:46.861
Having those planned future things
has been so healing for me with
00:15:46.861 --> 00:15:50.451
the amount of stress I'm dealing
with, all the way to when you
00:15:50.451 --> 00:15:52.011
mentioned like cleaning out a drawer.
00:15:52.011 --> 00:15:55.691
I was like, "Oh my gosh, I stress
clean," and that connected for me.
00:15:55.701 --> 00:15:55.721
Mm-hmm.
00:15:56.101 --> 00:16:00.211
I can clean out that drawer or that
cabinet and it is done, whereas so
00:16:00.211 --> 00:16:03.991
much- Mm-hmm … of my life as a
product manager is things that will
00:16:04.001 --> 00:16:09.001
not be done anytime soon, and they will
probably change three or four times
00:16:09.001 --> 00:16:10.921
before I even get to the implementation.
00:16:11.181 --> 00:16:17.381
So I live in kind of this space of
constant adding to the to-do list, and the
00:16:17.381 --> 00:16:21.791
list rarely gets smaller because there's
so much getting added new every day.
00:16:22.211 --> 00:16:25.451
I really appreciate you listing it
out for us in such a practical way
00:16:25.451 --> 00:16:29.371
so that now we can go choose to be
intentional about introducing these ways
00:16:29.371 --> 00:16:31.281
to close the stress loop for ourselves.
00:16:32.311 --> 00:16:34.871
Whitney, I know our time
today is almost at an end.
00:16:34.951 --> 00:16:39.071
I do have one question that came
up as, I was listening to you.
00:16:39.801 --> 00:16:43.481
I keep hearing the
phrase, "It is what it is.
00:16:44.531 --> 00:16:45.241
" Mm-hmm.
00:16:45.241 --> 00:16:50.521
I'm very curious when you hear
that phrase, what does that mean
00:16:50.771 --> 00:16:56.051
to you, and what advice would you
give if you're in an organization
00:16:56.051 --> 00:16:57.341
where you're hearing that a lot?
00:16:59.497 --> 00:17:01.527
I think it depends on the tone.
00:17:01.677 --> 00:17:06.007
. I know there's some people who have a
visceral response to that, especially if
00:17:06.007 --> 00:17:08.467
the tone is flippancy, It is what it is.
00:17:08.467 --> 00:17:11.407
I'm not gonna do anything
about it." Then there are some
00:17:11.407 --> 00:17:13.167
people who are "Just let it be.
00:17:13.367 --> 00:17:14.497
It is what it is.
00:17:14.637 --> 00:17:16.597
I'm still gonna take care of myself.
00:17:16.607 --> 00:17:20.337
The world is in chaos mode." I had
that conversation the other day with a
00:17:20.337 --> 00:17:23.197
friend of mine. She's like, "I'm taking
Instagram off my phone i'm on it too much.
00:17:23.767 --> 00:17:25.867
"I need to go do something
that actually gives me life."
00:17:25.977 --> 00:17:29.417
She's started a new business on the
side, and she said, "I forgot how much
00:17:29.417 --> 00:17:34.237
I enjoyed doing things." When we are
bombarded all the time with all the
00:17:34.237 --> 00:17:39.829
negative I don't think that it's uncommon
for people to go, "It just is what it is.
00:17:40.199 --> 00:17:43.269
I don't, I can't do anything about
it." It's like that overwhelm.
00:17:43.339 --> 00:17:47.569
I think I would probably first
be curious about, the tone.
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:48.589
Where is it coming from?
00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:50.009
Do you feel overwhelmed?
00:17:50.389 --> 00:17:52.219
Is there something that
needs to be done here?
00:17:52.219 --> 00:17:53.509
Does it need to be challenged?
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:58.089
Sometimes people just need to feel
like, "Hey, I can't do anything about
00:17:58.089 --> 00:17:59.509
that," and that's a reality check.
00:18:00.169 --> 00:18:03.989
But I will do what I need to
do to take care of myself.
00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:06.769
I think that's what it comes back
to, because there's a ripple effect.
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.519
I don't know if you're familiar
with the torus field of the heart.
00:18:11.349 --> 00:18:13.109
This is how we measure authenticity.
00:18:13.139 --> 00:18:15.439
The HeartMath Institute can map it now.
00:18:15.479 --> 00:18:16.659
It looks very cool.
00:18:16.919 --> 00:18:20.999
That out of the heart, there's, like, all
these, weird spirals that are happening.
00:18:21.189 --> 00:18:24.509
When you say, "I sense energy from
people," I could tell, on the front end.
00:18:24.749 --> 00:18:26.909
People will call it
intuition, but it is energy.
00:18:26.939 --> 00:18:28.159
We all give off energy.
00:18:28.609 --> 00:18:33.069
And one of the, land animals that has
the largest torus field is a horse.
00:18:33.349 --> 00:18:36.729
Think of, , equine therapy
and its ability to, calm you.
00:18:36.828 --> 00:18:40.750
In the East, they Talk about
transmutation, and transmutation
00:18:40.770 --> 00:18:45.370
happens right here in this heart center,
which transmutation is about taking
00:18:45.370 --> 00:18:49.490
the things that are happening in life
and, putting them into the ground and
00:18:49.510 --> 00:18:50.640
seeing what you can get from them.
00:18:51.660 --> 00:18:55.600
I have these stresses, I'm taking these
things in, and I'm gonna be a good,
00:18:55.980 --> 00:18:58.490
compassionate, curious person for myself.
00:18:58.770 --> 00:19:01.420
"If I'm feeling dried up here,
what does that look like?
00:19:01.890 --> 00:19:03.110
What do I need to do?
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.350
Maybe I just need to do
nothing today, and that's okay.
00:19:06.910 --> 00:19:10.370
Maybe I need to go and look for signs.
00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:13.110
I need to go for a walk and just
notice what's in my neighborhood."
00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:17.050
I call it beauty hunting. What kind
of birds live here, I garage explore
00:19:17.050 --> 00:19:19.430
too, because I'm always looking for
different ways people organize their
00:19:19.430 --> 00:19:20.840
garages. "How are you doing this?
00:19:20.890 --> 00:19:24.030
I don't know what to do." Because we
are getting inundated all the time with,
00:19:24.080 --> 00:19:28.050
like, all this heavy negative, energy.
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:31.490
How do I transmute that negative
energy into something that is
00:19:31.490 --> 00:19:33.410
productive and good for me?
00:19:34.100 --> 00:19:35.740
Does that mean I need
to put the phone down?
00:19:35.800 --> 00:19:39.180
Or I need to call a girlfriend,
or I need to reach out to one
00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:42.270
of my guys and go grab a beer.
00:19:42.860 --> 00:19:43.620
What happened to that?
00:19:43.620 --> 00:19:46.820
We stopped connecting and
reaching out and doing these
00:19:46.830 --> 00:19:48.380
things that, help us feel good.
00:19:48.380 --> 00:19:51.700
'Cause there's a part of us that
have convinced ourselves, "Oh, I
00:19:51.700 --> 00:19:54.070
can't do that because it's gonna take
too much energy," or, "It's gonna
00:19:54.070 --> 00:19:56.020
feel really awkward." It's a blah.
00:19:56.270 --> 00:19:59.960
Move towards life, even
when it's uncomfortable.
00:20:02.080 --> 00:20:07.190
Moving towards life I think is
a great moniker if you're going
00:20:07.190 --> 00:20:11.700
through intense stress, whether it's
white-knuckling it in a job you're
00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:15.690
in and you're looking for a path past
the white-knuckling into a healthier
00:20:15.690 --> 00:20:21.060
space, or if you are currently in the
throes of searching for your next job.
00:20:21.700 --> 00:20:25.870
I think moving towards
life is a great plan.
00:20:26.010 --> 00:20:32.430
It might feel fuzzy in this moment
right now, but you can get to a place
00:20:32.450 --> 00:20:35.500
where it moves from fuzzy to more real.
00:20:35.510 --> 00:20:35.540
Mm-hmm.
00:20:35.590 --> 00:20:39.250
And getting to have those
moments, even the small moments.
00:20:39.280 --> 00:20:44.020
I've been asking myself lately
to search for the small things
00:20:44.020 --> 00:20:45.980
in life that bring me joy.
00:20:46.260 --> 00:20:49.310
Like Whitney, you and I were
talking earlier about you give me
00:20:49.310 --> 00:20:52.740
a good croissant, I am feeling joy.
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.280
And I don't care that
that is a tiny thing.
00:20:55.650 --> 00:20:58.480
That is a moment that matters to me.
00:20:58.930 --> 00:20:58.950
Mm-hmm.
00:20:59.180 --> 00:21:01.410
And it is super tiny, and that's okay.
00:21:01.420 --> 00:21:01.440
Yeah.
00:21:01.450 --> 00:21:04.760
And that can be, something that
makes me smile, something that
00:21:04.760 --> 00:21:07.970
I could share with friends, take
them to a favorite pastry place.
00:21:08.070 --> 00:21:12.460
So I think allowing ourselves these
moments of leaning into joy and
00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:16.170
play and leaning towards life is
a great way for us to approach the
00:21:16.170 --> 00:21:17.510
stress that we're all dealing with.
00:21:18.410 --> 00:21:22.460
Thank you again, Whitney, I know Metsy
and I both have a lot to think about.
00:21:22.530 --> 00:21:27.230
I hope the listeners out there also
get, , a lot from everything you've
00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:28.939
brought in these past two episodes.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:30.359
Thank you for being on the show.
00:21:31.835 --> 00:21:32.715
Thank you for having me.
00:21:33.110 --> 00:21:35.510
.Thanks for listening to
Pixels and Priorities.
00:21:35.990 --> 00:21:39.740
Follow and subscribe for more
conversations at the intersection
00:21:39.770 --> 00:21:41.600
of product and design.
00:21:42.170 --> 00:21:43.400
See you next time.