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Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
welcome to the ordinary
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discipleship Podcast. I'm Jesse
Cruikshank, and today I have
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with me my dear friend Daniel
Yang. Daniel and I have known
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each other. Gosh, I don't know.
I think we're going on 1112,
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years. I'm not
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Unknown: sure. Yeah,
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Jessie Cruickshank: but Daniel
and I knew each other three
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careers ago, and we have both
changed different seasons of
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life in the time. And for me,
Daniel has been one of those
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people in my life that is like a
spiritual brother to me. It
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doesn't matter what my season
is, what his season is. I always
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Daniel. I always feel connected
to you. You're always the Lord
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brings you to my mind. I pray
for you regularly, and so I
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don't know what that means in
the grand scheme of things,
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maybe, maybe we live in the same
cul de sac, although I don't
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think that we're like cul de sac
people, but in heaven, like
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maybe we live in the same
housing development. It's
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probably something cooler than a
cul de sac. But just feel like
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you, you've been part of my life
the last decade or so in this
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very spiritual brother kind of
way. And I'm so excited to
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introduce my audience to you and
the amazing work that you're
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doing with World Relief these
days. So welcome to the ordinary
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discipleship
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Daniel Yang: podcast that's so
cool, so special. Thanks. Jesse,
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yeah, I feel the same way. I'm
just scrolling through our text
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right now. I'm like, wow, you
know, it's just the the range of
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experiences and processing and
prayer in seasons that we've
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been through together, you know?
So that that is makes this
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conversation even, even more
special. And you know, the work
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that you're doing your gift mix
like, I feel like I'm always
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connected to people that have
like this, this, like, eclectic
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convergence of skill and life
story. So I think that's part of
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the reason why I was gonna say
quirky. But it's not a quirky
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thing. It's a eclectic, that's
my word eclectic. So
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Jessie Cruickshank: which could
also mean quirky,
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Daniel Yang: which? Well, I
mean, who else does wilderness
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experience in neuroscience and
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Jessie Cruickshank: not a lot of
people, but exactly. But will
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you introduce, introduce
yourself to our audience and
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share a little bit about the
work that you do with World
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Relief, and whatever backstory
you feel like you want to add to
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that. Yeah,
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Daniel Yang: yeah, yeah. So, as
you mentioned, I work for an
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organization World Relief as a
Senior Director of Global
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Mission and church movements.
And World Relief has been an
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organization that has been on
the front lines for over 80
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years, front lines of the result
of consequences of war,
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catastrophe, disaster. It's an
NGO. It's a humanitarian
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organization, but it's it's much
more than that. It is really the
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church being in the places that
is hardest in the world and in
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the United States for nearly
five decades, World Relief has
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helped churches work with
vulnerable immigrants, refugees,
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traumatized people who have come
to this country and then are
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trying to restart their life,
and I never had envisioned
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myself working for a
humanitarian mission
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organization like World Relief,
but it's always, it has sort of
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always been, I think, I guess, a
natural place for me to end up,
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because of my own family. Story
is former refugees from Laos and
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came to this country in the late
70s, 1979 and really just taking
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on multiple layers of identity,
whether that's a national
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identity as an American, we
became Christians through this
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process of refugee resettlement.
So there's a religious,
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spiritual, you know, shaping and
formation that happened in our
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refugee experience and then the
different contexts that I've
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lived in. You know, my parents
were resettled in East Moline,
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Illinois, which is kind of
rural, small town, cornfields
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Illinois, but very quickly moved
us into inner city, Detroit. If
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you all have seen the movie Gran
Torino, that gives you a good
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sense of, sort of how I grew up
ethnically I'm Hmong. And so
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that movie was about the Hmong
refugee immigrants that have
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kind of restarted their lives in
inner city, Detroit. So for me,
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I feel like my work. You know,
they say this about PhD
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research, that sometimes
research is me search, and maybe
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it's sort of kind of true that I
now work for World of leave
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because I'm I'm trying to, like,
make meaning of my story, if
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that makes sense, and this gives
me proximity to other people's
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stories to help me understand my
own story as well. So along the
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way, my wife and I, we got.
Married at 19. So that's
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another, you know, interesting
layer. We have five kids. I had
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my first career as an engineer,
and then eventually pastored,
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planted churches, missiology, so
all that, yeah,
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Jessie Cruickshank: you have
five beautiful children who what
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the oldest is in college, right?
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Daniel Yang: Oldest is now just
working, 24
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Jessie Cruickshank: Okay,
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Daniel Yang: and then my
youngest is seven, so pretty big
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range,
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Jessie Cruickshank: dude, it's
it's a huge range. You're gonna
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be a parent forever.
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Daniel Yang: I know isn't that
crazy we were because the first
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three were like 2422 and 20 and
then there's a nine year gap
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between the third and fourth. So
we thought we were going to be
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empty nesters at 45
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Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah. What
happened to that plan?
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Daniel Yang: Well, you know, God
has his own way of writing your
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story. So, so I often joke with
people like I have two sets of
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children with the same spouse,
because it feels that way.
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Jessie Cruickshank: Well, yeah,
but your wife, Linda, is
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amazing. She's crazy. She at
least this time last year,
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worked also in refugee
resettlement,
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Daniel Yang: yes and Yep. She
feels very called to that work.
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And so she also works for World
Relief. And still, still, God
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has her there. So she works
directly with refugees looking
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for work. It's amazing. Like
her, she literally is helping to
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save lives by helping people
find work. And so, yeah, it's, I
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really love the work that she's
doing.
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Jessie Cruickshank: So it's so
beautiful. Like I remember we
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met being nerds trying to help
the church on a missiologist
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Council, and like trying to help
the church in North America see
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its neighbor, reach out to its
neighborhoods, reach out to the
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next generations. We nerded off
around Gen Z and church planting
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for a while, and now it seems
like life has taken us in this
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direction where we're not
trying. We're not only trying to
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help people love their neighbor,
but also love their enemy, love
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their friend, see who they're
called to even more broadly. And
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I remember, you remember Boston,
I'm sure, I'm sure you remember
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right? Like Boston gathering,
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Daniel Yang: yeah,
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Jessie Cruickshank: forge Ford
Foster was, was, I think it was
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pivotal in a lot of different in
multiple ways, but one of which
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is that your story actually
helped me understand my story
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and helped me and helped me name
some things that I couldn't have
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articulated before without you.
And you were sharing, and I know
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you, you know this, but, but you
were sharing the different
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perspectives and the different
narratives that exist in people
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groups in in America. So there's
the everything is getting worse.
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Narrative, like, like, of course
the rapture is going to come.
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It's so bad, and it's just
getting worse, and so Jesus has
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to come get us. So there's that
narrative. There's a narrative
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of, hey, the world is getting
better. It's growing and who God
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is for me in this this time. And
as you were naming these
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different narratives of these
different populations, and I'll
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have you share that
specifically, because I'm
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already screwing it up, what I
remember the most clear is that
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you shared what an immigrant and
a refugee narrative is. So an
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immigrant and a refugee coming
to America, how God has saved
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them, how God has helped them,
and of course, of course, God's
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for them. Of course, God's with
them. Coming out of these
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terrible circumstances that
causes somebody to be a migrant
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and a refugee that God is the
author of that story. For them,
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and the way that you described
it really named some things for
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me, because coming from a middle
of nowhere, Wyoming, and not
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feeling very connected to the
evangelical Christian
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establishment that I was serving
in vocationally like I didn't
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understand why they always
thought the world was ending. I
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didn't understand why they
always thought things were bad,
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because God saved me from my
life, and and and I, and growing
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up next to the reservation of
the Indian Reservation, I felt,
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I'd always felt like an
immigrant into evangelical
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Christianity, and so you named
some of those things for me, and
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I, I really appreciate that. So
so maybe kind of if you could
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share just a little bit of those
different narratives for our
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audience and and help us
understand the way that a
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migrant and a refugee actually
experiences God and and that
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story that they're living in
that God is that God is writing
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for them?
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Daniel Yang: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thanks. Thanks for setting that
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up, because I do remember us
having those conversations and
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how, in some ways, the the
immigrant. Narrative, although
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comes from a particular kind of
life experience, there is a
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shared experience of like, you
know, trying to make meaning of
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our trauma, trying to make
meaning of our not just personal
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story, but sort of like, what
led up to those moments of
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trauma in our lives. And so
that's a human activity. You
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know, it's not, it's not
relegated to the immigrant or
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refugee experience, but
immigrants and refugees do
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experience that in a very unique
way. What I shared in Boston,
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and also have been spending a
lot of time, you know, even in
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the last it's probably been
three or four years since Boston
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thinking through this. I at that
point I was I was talking about
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some of this in terms of what
sometimes is called the arrival
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narrative. At times have used
the term fulfillment narrative.
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The Arrival narrative sort of is
this idea that like
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displacement. That's probably
the larger word for the
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different categories of people
that have had to leave home,
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displacement is a disruptor, and
it causes a very traumatic life
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experience. And then for those
who have felt like they've had
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to force leave home, like they
were forced to leave home, they
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can't return. How do they make
meaning of that? You know, how
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do I? How do I make meaning of
the war catastrophe, the
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killing, the lost lives and and
then to then restart your life
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here in America in the 21st
Century, and the arrival
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narrative really has an
imagination for well, God, you,
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you, you don't author war or
catastrophe. You, you surely did
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not cause these things to
happen, but you are sovereign
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enough to direct and to and to
make good. And so the arrival
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narrative is discovering God
amid that, you know, and asking,
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God, where are you in my
family's experience? And this is
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goes on to the second and the
third generation, and it begins
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to give a bit of like meaning
and purpose to the pain. And
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part of the reason why I've
often often talked about it as a
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fulfillment narrative as well is
that there becomes a full circle
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moment when you begin realizing
that, Oh, wow. Like as somebody
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who is once a part of a
community that was highly
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traumatized, I now am also a
part of what God is doing to
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bring healing to others, right?
And so there's sort of a full
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circle fulfillment concept
there. And again, I don't think
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this is unique to the immigrant
and refugee experience. I think
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it's a human project, but the
way that we've experienced it,
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and it takes, it's generate, it
takes generations, right? It's
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not something that you can
experience within five to 10
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years or even 40 years. You
know, it takes, you know, my
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parents, in my generation, and
my children, and we're still
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asking that question, Jesus has
been the lens through which
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we've tried to understand our
experience and our trauma and
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tried to reimagine our
experiences. And it's not
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simple, like it's not as easy as
saying, Well, Jesus is on the
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throne. That's not what I'm
saying. Although he is on the
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throne, thank God. And it's not
as simple as saying, Well, now
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that I'm a believer now and I'm
saved, then at least I'm going
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to heaven. Because it's not that
simple either, although that is
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a beautiful fact, it's this
reimagining of like Jesus in the
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project of war. And like you
were saying earlier, when you
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are othered, and you see people
as enemies, and you see people
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as you know, causing harm and
violence, and you're asking the
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question, Jesus, how do you it's
very much what Miroslav both
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wrote about back in the 90s. I'm
drawing a blank on his name, on
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the book of his name, but he
talks about, essentially, how do
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you find Jesus amid conflict and
tension and even violence? And I
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feel like immigrants and
refugees are the embodiment of
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of what that looks like.
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Jessie Cruickshank: What do you
think is the reason that God is
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asking us, as the body of
Christ, always in Scripture, to
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like be a safe place for them,
to receive them, to show
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hospitality, to welcome them, to
feed them, to take care of the
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foreigner, the widow, the
orphan, the immigrant, the
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person who is homeless or and
country less and things like
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that. Like, what do you think
the Lord's plan is, and why he
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challenges us to do that?
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Daniel Yang: It's his nature. I
mean, it is. It is his nature to
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to give of yourself to find a
greater sense of life and
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completion. I think it all flows
from the character of God, who
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he is, and what it means to
instill in a people his nature
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and his character, and so I
think that's kind of like the
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big the big idea, you know, I
think when it comes to the
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experiential aspect, what? So,
you know, just to kind of, what
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does it mean for the church to
create welcome for those that
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are we would consider vulnerable
in society? Because in some
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ways, that is acting according
to our nature. We're we're in
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the image of God. We're
especially as as followers of
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Jesus. We're modeling, you know,
our life after Jesus, which is
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an incarnational, sacrificial,
other oriented lifestyle. And
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it's in, in some ways, you know,
Jesus said this himself. It's in
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losing yourself that you sort of
find yourself right. There is no
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indication from the Bible where,
if you accumulate a lot of
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things, and if you, if you pack
your storehouses, then you are
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more like God, you know, like
there's no teaching in the
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Bible, and that says, If you
fill up your storehouses and if
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you relish yourselves in the
most comfortable places, then
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you will find more of God,
right? It's sort of the
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opposite. In Zechariah, when God
is speaking to His people. He's
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saying, hey, you know, if you
turn your ear away from the
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orphans, the poor, the widow and
the foreigner, the way that you
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turn your ear away from them,
that's exactly what I'll do to
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you. In some ways, a part of it
is to reveal to us again that
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that is his nature to to empty
yourselves. I mean, it's, it's
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what Paul writes about Jesus in
Philippians. He, he, he divests
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himself. The practical, you
know, aspect of that is when I
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love somebody who almost,
virtually impossible, can't give
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to me what I've given to them,
then there is a beautiful
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exchange of life that that
happens that is close to the
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Divine Right. That's what Jesus
is saying at the parable of the
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banquet. You know, you invite
those who can repay you. What's
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the point? And so there is
something almost divine about
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reaching out to those who can't
repay you. And so I think in
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some ways, having seen this
happen in my life, having this,
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seen this happen over and over
in churches and everyday
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Christians, you know, you know
the saying, you know, I received
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more than I've given like that
is certainly true. And I think
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the only self preserving thing
about that, because I think
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there's some, some, some some
self preservation involved in
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doing this kind of work is that
you realize that this is some
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eschatology here for your
listeners. But you know, when
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you get to the end of
everything, when you get to the
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end of like, all the pain and
the suffering, Revelation
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Chapter 22 and you see Jesus
face to face, like the intensity
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in which we believe that we
should love those that are most
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different from us, like that
will be given back to us, and
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it'll it'll be revealed to us,
like how important that was,
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like that level of Like giving
and so and that that's why the
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Bible talks about like having
crowns and treasure in heaven
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and stuff like that, which I
don't think is necessarily like
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physical, material wealth. It is
the intensity in which you give
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out and pour out your life on
this side of his coming that's
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going to be translated into
meaningful wealth on the other
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side,
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Jessie Cruickshank: yeah, I like
to say that we're not
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accountable for what we know,
but we're accountable for how we
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love. And
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Unknown: you
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Jessie Cruickshank: know what I
what I love about what you're
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saying, If I can connect some
dots that are that are happening
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in my head, is that the the
person who's been on this
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journey, the refugee, the
immigrant, the migrant, because
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of the trauma they've
experienced, which is why
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they're moving, right? They're
not just moving because they're
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trying to take advantage of
something. They're moving
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because they cannot live where
they are like something terrible
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is happening, right? It is. It
is a migration born out of
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trauma and trial and horrific
circumstances and suffering and
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all of that. And so they,
because of that journey, they
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have asked questions of God.
They've experienced God in ways.
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And then they come, you know,
if, if I'm sitting in my church
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in North America, in Denver,
they're coming to my door, and
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there's an. Understanding they
have of God in a way that they
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process their trauma, or a way
that they're talking with God
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about that that I don't know,
right? I might have trauma in my
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background, but I don't
necessarily know how to process
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it, because maybe I haven't seen
it, maybe I haven't asked those
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questions, but, but when I think
about the gift that migrants and
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refugees are because of their
experience, because of the way
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that they have encountered God.
There's an understanding they
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have of God that is a gift to
everyone else. So like to reject
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them is like rejecting the
Prophet. It's like turning out
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the you know, rejecting Jesus
even because you're like, Oh,
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you have a thing, but I don't
actually need it. And so we
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don't see that they have
something that we need. Because
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I think we often think about
taking care of migrants and
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foreigners and refugees as a
charity, not as a gift of God to
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us to teach us something about
his nature and his character
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that we wouldn't necessarily
understand otherwise. And so
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when we reject them, we're
actually rejecting this gift of
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God, this part of his nature,
this messenger, this missionary
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I know, I know some of the
people that we know are
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literally missionaries to North
America that are being, you
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know, removed or a danger for
things like that, and, and so
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we're saying, Hey, we don't need
your message. We're fine. And,
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and so even more than an act of
charity, which I think on some
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level, it is, but it's actually
a gift to be received, you know,
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these these people and their
stories, and it makes me think
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about what Jim Wilder teaches
about enemy mode, where, you
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know, enemy mode is the state of
the brain, where we perceive
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that what the person in front of
us is an enemy. And there,
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there's lots of reasons, and
we're all different, so whatever
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triggers us, and we're like,
wait a minute, I don't know if
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this person is safe. And so we
go, our brain goes into enemy
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mode. So it goes, like, into
this lockdown, right? It's like
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we put up a force field while we
assess the risk and we figure
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out what to do. The problem is
that when we're in enemy mode,
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and it could be it's it's for
protection, it's in order to
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strategize. But the problem of
it is that if we stay there, we
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cannot receive from that which
is other than us. We cannot
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receive from that which is
outside of us, which includes
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not only that person in front of
us, but also the Holy Spirit. We
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literally cannot hear the Holy
Spirit when we're in enemy mode
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and we're perceiving that who is
in front of us as an enemy. So
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not only can we not receive from
them? We can't receive from God.
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We are not receiving God through
them, and we're not hearing God
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on our own anyway. And so I
just, I just think about how God
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is always challenging us to love
our enemy, to receive from that
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which is other than us, and just
how much we're failing at that
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right now, and I and I feel like
that's a strategy of the demonic
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that is the spiritual warfare of
our day. Because I don't think
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that at least the people that I
talk to are not that prone to
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thinking of other people as
enemies, right? I think, I think
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we're being encouraged in that.
I think we're being
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propagandized into that. I think
the algorithms on our phones and
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all of these things are are
pushing that, because then we
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click and we do things. But how
is that experience landing with
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the people that you work with?
You know, if, if we think about
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the person who's come from a
place, maybe they're Christian,
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and then they came from a
country where there's
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persecution, and now they're
here, and now they're
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experiencing persecution. Like,
like, what is? How is this
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posture of enemy mode landing
with the people that you serve,
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and in now they're going to be a
refugee twice. I don't I mean,
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like, what are, how are they
experiencing this and and what
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is that like for for people,
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Daniel Yang: yeah, yeah. I mean,
and some of maybe what you're
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alluding to is the change in
posture and policies in in the
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United States right now, towards
certain categories of
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immigrants, and especially those
who losing protected status,
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legal status. And then those
which announced as of the
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recording on this particular
podcast a little bit over a week
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ago, even refugees that were
admitted during Biden, even all
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of them 230,000 and will be
reinvestigated. So breaking the
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enemy mode. I mean, that is,
that's a huge summing block,
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because I don't think we quite
know how socialized we are into
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categorizing certain kinds of
immigrants as as enemies and so
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and this is. Always been a
challenge for every generation,
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throughout not just Western
history, but world history, the
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language that a particular group
of people will drain your
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economy, will threaten the
security of your country, and
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00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,400
then are taking resources from
another you know, demographic.
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This is sort of old hat language
and rhetoric, and it gets
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00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,420
rehashed in different ways, and
certainly in some cases like
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those, things have happened
before. So I don't want to say
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that, that that all of that is
completely untrue. You know, we
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have seen it in nations where
there are times where security
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is being threatened and stuff
like that, but usually not by
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refugees. You know, it's usually
by, like, actual military force
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where, where I've seen this
happen that is disturbing to me
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is where it used to be that,
let's say refugees, which is a
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very classified group of people.
It used to be that, like,
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00:26:00,420 --> 00:26:05,100
Americans weren't afraid of
refugees, you know. But almost
396
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:09,120
within a few years, there's now
this layer and veneer of like
397
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:14,220
skepticism, you know. And the
average American in the world
398
00:26:14,460 --> 00:26:17,760
might, they might have not
thought this before, but now
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00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,560
there's a check, you know. And I
think enemy making starts with
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that, you know, that suspicion
where it's just kind of like,
401
00:26:24,620 --> 00:26:27,260
Yeah, but do I really know
everything about that person?
402
00:26:27,740 --> 00:26:32,960
And do I, you know? And so, and
it's that, that tussle between
403
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,960
that, that check, that's, you
know, and then all of a sudden,
404
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:40,400
there are reasons for you to
then give in to that suspicion,
405
00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:44,980
and then, and then, usually it
becomes almost conspiracy,
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00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,640
spiritorial, or you actually
have a negative experience, like
407
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,380
you experience a negative
experience, and and and then,
408
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,900
which justifies your suspicion.
And then, you know, and then you
409
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,760
turn, turn into enemy mode. And
I feel like that is something
410
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:08,340
that has always been a threat.
And I think Jesus's words, the
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00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:12,060
Sermon on the Mount, you know,
to love your enemy, that is sort
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of the the ethic in the morality
of what it means to be a
413
00:27:16,380 --> 00:27:22,100
follower of Jesus like that is a
constant, like tension that is a
414
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,540
our move towards our enemy, for
the sake of reconciliation and
415
00:27:26,540 --> 00:27:31,640
for the sake of love, is a
discipline. It is a spiritual
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00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,560
discipline, you know, just like
reading your Bible, just like
417
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,800
going into church, you know,
being in spaces, you know, not
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00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,040
saying, like every space should
be this, but being in spaces
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00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,920
where you often feel
uncomfortable and you might
420
00:27:48,220 --> 00:27:51,160
suspect something about a group
of people and they might suspect
421
00:27:51,340 --> 00:27:56,800
something about you, like that
is a discipline to be in, and in
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00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,700
some ways, that's always been
where the church grew, and the
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00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:03,480
church has been like, awesome,
and that's part of the reason
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why we understand the persecuted
church. It often grows under
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00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:13,140
adversarial context, because the
church begins to love beyond its
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00:28:13,140 --> 00:28:17,340
limit and and then that breaks
the walls, and it breaks the
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00:28:17,340 --> 00:28:21,440
barriers, right? And so we see
that all the time, Jesse and I
428
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,340
think that institutionally,
we're at a point now where
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00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,740
institutions have felt like I'm
seeing institutions like other,
430
00:28:30,860 --> 00:28:33,080
you know, other categories of
people. It's not just
431
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,040
individuals, but it's
institutions. And so I feel like
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we're in a moment now where we
have to really reimagine like
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loving your enemy as a basic
discipline of what it means to
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be a follower of Jesus.
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00:28:47,679 --> 00:28:50,679
Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, I
can't agree more. I mean, I've
436
00:28:50,679 --> 00:28:53,919
studied some other religions,
and I'm not not super
437
00:28:53,919 --> 00:28:57,879
comprehensive, but I have not
encountered another faith that
438
00:28:58,359 --> 00:29:03,479
where, where the people are told
it is a command to love your
439
00:29:03,479 --> 00:29:06,659
enemy in the other other faiths
that I've looked at, it's
440
00:29:06,659 --> 00:29:10,319
transactional. It's like, you
know, if they're your enemy, tax
441
00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:16,019
them or, you know, put them
outside the camp and and the
442
00:29:16,019 --> 00:29:23,359
faith of Jesus says, invite them
into your home. Bring them in,
443
00:29:23,959 --> 00:29:27,499
bless them, keep them warm,
which is what putting coals on
444
00:29:27,499 --> 00:29:30,979
their head is to like, like,
like, send them with warmth and
445
00:29:30,979 --> 00:29:36,679
blessing, you know, take care of
them. And as I I just can't find
446
00:29:36,679 --> 00:29:40,599
another religion that asks and
commands its followers to do
447
00:29:40,659 --> 00:29:46,359
that. So, so not only does Jesus
say love your neighbor, but then
448
00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:49,839
you also have to love your enemy
and treat them as if they're
449
00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:52,779
family. And sometimes are, you
know, sometimes those are
450
00:29:52,779 --> 00:29:55,659
synonymous. But the requirement
is always there. So there's
451
00:29:55,659 --> 00:30:00,299
like, there's literally no one
we're allowed to be mean. To,
452
00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:04,319
there's literally no one we're
allowed to dehumanize. There's
453
00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:07,799
literally no one like even go to
the people who are in prison,
454
00:30:08,219 --> 00:30:14,639
you know, so, so regardless of
of deserve merit. You know,
455
00:30:14,699 --> 00:30:19,499
we're, we are required and
commanded by Jesus to go to to
456
00:30:19,499 --> 00:30:22,819
love, to bless, to take care of
and we and we're because we're
457
00:30:22,819 --> 00:30:27,019
supposed to just let God manage
the what we deserve and what we
458
00:30:27,019 --> 00:30:29,719
don't deserve in this in this
world.
459
00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:33,020
Daniel Yang: Yeah, and a part of
that, and the reason why, again,
460
00:30:33,020 --> 00:30:36,740
if you go back to that part in
Matthew five, when Jesus is
461
00:30:36,740 --> 00:30:39,080
talking about this, you know, he
says, You heard him say that,
462
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,160
you know, love your enemy and
then hate your or love your
463
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:48,460
neighbor and hate your enemy. I
think he I mean, you know this
464
00:30:48,460 --> 00:30:52,000
more than I do, but Jesus has
mastered the human experience
465
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,820
like he knows how the body is
programmed, like he knows why
466
00:30:57,820 --> 00:31:01,260
our bodies tense up. He knows
why our bodies go into fight or
467
00:31:01,260 --> 00:31:05,820
flight mode, and he knows how a
body can release tension and
468
00:31:05,820 --> 00:31:08,520
heal itself. And, you know,
maybe he doesn't know in the way
469
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,200
that a medical doctor knows it.
I don't know, but I think he's
470
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,940
introducing, reintroducing into
the human experience, in that
471
00:31:17,940 --> 00:31:24,860
mandate that like the only way
to really overcome fear in
472
00:31:24,860 --> 00:31:29,480
situations where you're going to
fight all the time, or you're
473
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,020
going to you know, because
hating and fighting and violence
474
00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:38,360
are all sort of part of the same
spectrum, Right, is to disable
475
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:45,040
that mechanism in in your soul,
your, you know? I mean,
476
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,060
sometimes you will will locate
it to the amygdala, right? But
477
00:31:49,060 --> 00:31:52,000
it's probably broader than just
that, that that place in our
478
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,760
brainstem. See, I'm going into
your field of expertise now.
479
00:31:54,819 --> 00:31:54,999
Unknown: Keep
480
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,440
Jessie Cruickshank: going. Keep
going.
481
00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:01,679
Daniel Yang: But, but, um, and I
feel like, you know, Jesus is
482
00:32:01,679 --> 00:32:07,019
being very He's helping us to
identify like our seed of fear
483
00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:13,559
and deface our fear. And the way
to you have to cross a
484
00:32:13,559 --> 00:32:18,719
threshold, and the threshold is
going from like fearing and
485
00:32:18,719 --> 00:32:23,839
hating to love. Now I don't
think he is saying, like,
486
00:32:24,439 --> 00:32:29,239
necessarily, have, you know,
tremendous feelings for the
487
00:32:29,239 --> 00:32:32,119
person who's murdered your
parents, like, I mean, and maybe
488
00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:34,399
he's saying some version of
that, but I think what he's
489
00:32:34,399 --> 00:32:38,359
generally saying is that, like,
there are categories of people
490
00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:44,499
that society have told you, has
told you to be suspicious of, to
491
00:32:44,499 --> 00:32:48,159
not love. You know, if you're a
Jew, it's the Gentile, right?
492
00:32:48,579 --> 00:32:52,239
And he's saying, we have, we
have to overcome that. And one
493
00:32:52,239 --> 00:32:57,459
of the markers of you being a
part of the kingdom is that you
494
00:32:57,459 --> 00:33:01,499
know that a marker of being a
part of the kingdom is that you
495
00:33:01,499 --> 00:33:05,159
press into that fear and that
hate until it becomes love,
496
00:33:05,159 --> 00:33:08,399
right? And that's how you
actually bring the kingdom.
497
00:33:08,399 --> 00:33:12,059
That's how you actually usher it
about. And I think it's a
498
00:33:12,059 --> 00:33:18,359
strategic It's experiential, and
it's a part of what Christians
499
00:33:18,359 --> 00:33:20,779
are called to do in order to
usher the kingdom,
500
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,620
Jessie Cruickshank: I mean, and
to be, to be a little nerdy like
501
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:28,640
it's not only necessary for our
spiritual development, but it's
502
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,280
also necessary for our
biological development. Because,
503
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,580
as I've been looking at and
leaning into loving this idea of
504
00:33:34,580 --> 00:33:38,360
loving your enemy for the last
year, and looking at how the
505
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,820
first, the first person that we
decide is our enemy is actually
506
00:33:42,820 --> 00:33:47,620
our parent. So as an infant, you
are crying and you need stuff,
507
00:33:47,620 --> 00:33:51,040
and the parent doesn't fast
enough, or they get it wrong,
508
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,140
right? You actually are hungry
and they're changing your
509
00:33:53,140 --> 00:33:55,420
diaper, or vice versa, or
whatever. And like, if you've
510
00:33:55,420 --> 00:33:59,140
ever seen an angry baby, like
babies get angry, it's one of
511
00:33:59,140 --> 00:34:02,820
the core emotions that we're
born with. And so the first
512
00:34:03,180 --> 00:34:07,020
enemy that we have is our
caregiver. And so the first
513
00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:13,200
enemy we have to overcome that
anger and that othering is is
514
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,140
our caregiver, so we can receive
from them. So we're so we have
515
00:34:16,140 --> 00:34:20,120
to repair, we have to reconnect
with the caregiver in order to
516
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,080
receive from them in order to,
like, receive food and warmth
517
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,400
and love and, you know,
nurturing. And so as an infant,
518
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,640
it's a parent, and then it
becomes like a sibling or a
519
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,880
playmate who has the toy that we
don't have, or has the cookie we
520
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,460
don't have. Or, in my house, it
was growing up as the bathroom,
521
00:34:38,060 --> 00:34:40,900
you know, we had one bathroom
and three kids. So there was,
522
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,520
there was a fight over bathroom
time because it was a limited
523
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,260
resource and and so you have to
learn how to forgive, repent,
524
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,700
reconnect with your enemy, you
know, sibling or playmate. And
525
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,580
then we go to school and we
experience people who don't like
526
00:34:57,580 --> 00:35:01,440
us, teachers and and. If we
haven't figured out how to
527
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,420
repair with our enemy, we
actually then take that on in
528
00:35:06,420 --> 00:35:09,360
order to be identify with the
person that we're trying to
529
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,240
connect with. And we make
ourself our enemy. And so we
530
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:16,260
take on the posture of an our
enemy towards us. So if you have
531
00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:20,120
a parent who you can't earn
their affection, then you end up
532
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,400
like over identifying with them
and hating yourself. And so we
533
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,060
turn that enemy on ourself in
order, because we're created for
534
00:35:29,060 --> 00:35:32,120
connection and and, and when
we're in enemy mode, we're not
535
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,240
connected, we're not connected
to God, and we're not connected
536
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:40,540
to each other. And so, so if we
don't learn how to repair with a
537
00:35:40,540 --> 00:35:46,120
parent or a sibling, a playmate,
a schoolmate, then we get
538
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,340
stunted biologically, and then
that, I think that remains with
539
00:35:51,340 --> 00:35:55,180
us spiritually. So so for me,
loving your enemy, repairing,
540
00:35:55,180 --> 00:36:01,620
reconciling is is the core of
what we're supposed to do in
541
00:36:01,620 --> 00:36:05,220
this life. It's how we receive
from Jesus, it's how we hear
542
00:36:05,220 --> 00:36:09,420
God. It's how like so for me,
even my definition of sin is
543
00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:15,180
separation. So it is the the
death that sin brings, while
544
00:36:15,180 --> 00:36:19,500
that reconnection brings life.
So, so when we treat the
545
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:24,200
vulnerable like this. We are
operating in sin, not not
546
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,880
idealistically, because loving
our enemy is a command at every
547
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,500
age of our life, at every stage
of our development, it's not a
548
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:39,620
thing to aspire to. It's
actually necessary. And so I
549
00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:44,680
just my heart for the body of
Christ right now is to is that
550
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,060
we would discover this and we
would be like, Oh no, that's
551
00:36:49,060 --> 00:36:52,660
actually more important than
attending a church event. Is
552
00:36:52,660 --> 00:36:57,460
learning how to love the the
person who I feel other than
553
00:36:57,820 --> 00:37:00,780
right now, learning how to bless
them, learning how to go to
554
00:37:00,780 --> 00:37:05,280
them, learning how to be open to
connection and and moving
555
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,540
through because, because unity
is a choice. Right, moving
556
00:37:09,540 --> 00:37:11,940
through that you actually have
to choose to move through that
557
00:37:11,940 --> 00:37:15,120
you have to choose to forgive.
You have to choose to repent.
558
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,160
And I just, I don't know how we
experience the kingdom without
559
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,960
that. I don't know where the
kingdom exists without that. So
560
00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:27,080
my body, my heart hurts for the
body of Christ right now,
561
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:32,060
because we're not experiencing
the kingdom. And so I'm just,
562
00:37:32,060 --> 00:37:35,360
I'm just wondering if, if you
could, you could maybe give us
563
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:40,040
some sort of like hope. Because
right now I'm like, Ah, you know
564
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,280
the kingdom, the kingdom
continues to come in our midst
565
00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:50,380
as we do this. What is, what is
something that the people of of
566
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,320
the Body of Christ, the people
who are like, I'm not okay. I
567
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,660
know this isn't the kingdom, but
I don't I don't know what's
568
00:37:55,660 --> 00:37:58,900
going on. You don't feel okay.
Like, how? How would you
569
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:03,780
encourage them right now? Or,
what? What might you say to them
570
00:38:04,020 --> 00:38:07,020
in this, in this moment, in our
in our culture and in our
571
00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:07,560
history?
572
00:38:08,340 --> 00:38:11,820
Daniel Yang: Yeah, I'm gonna try
to make this as sort of
573
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,300
practical and as relatable,
because I'm realized that
574
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,480
everybody listening is probably
not necessarily a church leader
575
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,860
or institutional leader, and
you're, you're you're just a
576
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,880
everyday follower of Jesus, and
you just really want to bring
577
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,560
the kingdom to wherever you're
at. I think it is important to
578
00:38:31,580 --> 00:38:39,380
to continue to have a strong
sense of like biblical identity,
579
00:38:39,380 --> 00:38:44,740
because the pull away towards
that in, you know, whether it's
580
00:38:44,740 --> 00:38:48,580
national or ethnic or racial
identity, which are all really
581
00:38:48,580 --> 00:38:52,720
important categories, but
rooting ourselves in Scripture
582
00:38:52,780 --> 00:38:57,040
and allowing the scripture to
confront biases is so important.
583
00:38:58,060 --> 00:39:00,580
And so that begins with a work
of like the Holy Spirit.
584
00:39:00,580 --> 00:39:02,500
Because, you know, I mean, I'll
be honest, there are a lot of
585
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:04,980
Christians. Of Christians out
there that are speaking on this
586
00:39:04,980 --> 00:39:08,040
issue, and they're not informed
by a conviction of the Holy
587
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,000
Spirit. They're informed by the
other side of the political
588
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,000
spectrum, right? So I'm just,
I'm and maybe there's nothing
589
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,020
wrong with that in particular,
but when my advice is to be in
590
00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:22,040
the Scripture so that your
conviction comes from the Holy
591
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,300
Spirit and your quiet times. And
then don't be afraid to exercise
592
00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:32,240
your voice. And it may be scary,
you know, it may be scary to to
593
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,600
say, you know, to correct your
pastor and say, Hey, I think
594
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,200
what you said from the pulpit is
not consistent with the ethic
595
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,400
that Jesus presents in Matthew
in, Matthew five. And I'm not
596
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,520
asking anybody to to send email
complaints to the pastor, but
597
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,460
what, what I'm saying is that
sometimes people feel like my
598
00:39:48,460 --> 00:39:52,000
pastor is not being vocal, or
he's he's actually perpetuating,
599
00:39:52,420 --> 00:39:55,960
you know, othering other people.
And so exercising your voice is
600
00:39:56,260 --> 00:40:00,720
in the right, in the right, you
know, approach. Is really
601
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:06,840
important, and then finding
healthy coalitions of people to
602
00:40:07,140 --> 00:40:14,100
be a sounding board so that you
can have a outlet to release,
603
00:40:14,460 --> 00:40:17,880
you know, the pent up negativity
that often we might feel
604
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,080
because, you know, for those of
us who especially feel like
605
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,880
advocates. We always take on
through empathy and sympathy,
606
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,640
you know, the energy of other
people. And so you need places
607
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,260
to release that, to process
that, and to be reminded that
608
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,220
it's not all you know, your own
work. And then the fourth thing
609
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,260
I would say is, for most of us,
we're not going to save the
610
00:40:41,260 --> 00:40:49,420
world, but be in proximity to
people in places where you can
611
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,940
create impact and so and it's
probably as simple as finding
612
00:40:54,940 --> 00:40:58,300
somebody at the school where
your kids go to school that feel
613
00:40:58,300 --> 00:41:02,220
most threatened right now by the
recent policies, and being a
614
00:41:02,220 --> 00:41:05,580
friend to them and loving them
and caring for them and letting
615
00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:10,140
them know that they have the
image of God. And because for
616
00:41:10,140 --> 00:41:15,240
most of us, paralysis becomes
apathy. And so the way to kind
617
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:18,360
of break out of apathy is to not
be paralyzed. And way to not be
618
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,460
paralyzed is to find the little,
small things where the kingdom
619
00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:26,900
can break in, and that is as
simple as finding a person who
620
00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:30,440
feels most threatened right now
in being present in their life,
621
00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:35,780
and that that human connection
of being present in someone's
622
00:41:35,780 --> 00:41:38,120
life where they feel like
they're a vulnerable immigrant
623
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,680
right now, that's something that
even if they get removed from
624
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,800
this country, like that
experience that they had with
625
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,480
you, they'll take with them. But
what we're seeing is that when
626
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,980
you're willing to be in
proximate spaces with them and
627
00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:58,240
your family with them, that
reduces the chance of them
628
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,740
actually, you know, feeling like
they're going to be, you know,
629
00:42:01,740 --> 00:42:05,940
removed, right? So I think
proximity is so important, both
630
00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:08,160
for the people that you're
trying to help and it's
631
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:09,240
important for
632
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,520
Jessie Cruickshank: yourself.
That's so good Daniel, and I
633
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,700
think if I would just, if I
could just add one thing to it,
634
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:17,520
because I know some people who
may not have kids in school or
635
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,780
or they live in places where
they're like, I don't actually
636
00:42:20,780 --> 00:42:26,900
know how to be proximal to
someone. I think about having
637
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:32,120
prayer meetings, because even
even if someone's listening to
638
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,360
this, this podcast five years in
the future, and some of that the
639
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:41,380
on the ground situation is has
changed, like praying for with
640
00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:48,400
other people praying for whoever
is the outsider or the enemy in
641
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,780
your community or or that your
Lord, the Lord is moving on your
642
00:42:52,780 --> 00:42:56,440
heart for like, I think that we
can always do that in every
643
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,900
season, because this isn't, this
isn't a New situation. I mean,
644
00:43:00,900 --> 00:43:04,200
I'm, I'm, I'm the third
generation child of Irish
645
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,260
immigrants, and the reason why
they were in the West is because
646
00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:09,060
they weren't allowed to live
anywhere else, because
647
00:43:09,060 --> 00:43:09,300
Unknown: they were,
648
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:11,100
Jessie Cruickshank: they were
dirty, and all those things that
649
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,920
are being said about immigrants
right now, we're set about the
650
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,880
Irish and the Italians, right?
So like sea gangs in New York,
651
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,460
right? It's, it's a, it's a
thing that reoccurs so it never
652
00:43:22,460 --> 00:43:29,900
goes away, which means we can
always, I think, join with other
653
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:34,100
people and pray and say, God,
you know your kingdom come, Your
654
00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:38,960
will be done in these, in lives,
in our community, as it is on
655
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,060
heaven. And I think that can
keep us that can keep us open
656
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:48,520
and receiving for however, the
Lord would lead, Daniel, if
657
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,820
people want to donate to World
Relief or get involved, is
658
00:43:51,820 --> 00:43:56,320
there, is there a place that
they can go? How can if, if
659
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,080
they're in one of those
situations where they can, they
660
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,340
are proximal to individuals and
they want to, they want to
661
00:44:02,340 --> 00:44:04,260
connect with the work that
you're doing. How would they
662
00:44:04,260 --> 00:44:04,800
find you?
663
00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:08,520
Daniel Yang: Yeah, absolutely.
Worldrelief.org worldrelief.org
664
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,380
you can find out sort of how to,
how to connect. If your church
665
00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:16,380
in particular wants to be a
place where you create belonging
666
00:44:16,380 --> 00:44:19,080
and welcoming for others, you
can also go to churches of
667
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,940
welcome.com which is also a
World Relief website, so
668
00:44:22,940 --> 00:44:27,380
worldly.org for our work. And
then if you want to be involved
669
00:44:27,380 --> 00:44:28,820
and take action, churches of
welcome.com.
670
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,840
Jessie Cruickshank: Well, it's
so been, it's been so good to
671
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,800
have you. Thank you for joining
me on this conversation today. I
672
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,500
appreciate you. I appreciate
your heart. I appreciate your
673
00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:45,460
family. Yeah, just beautiful. So
thank you for joining us on the
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00:44:45,460 --> 00:44:49,960
ordinary discipleship podcast.
You can hear this and other
675
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,440
podcasts wherever you get your
podcasts, and you can always
676
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:59,320
visit hoology.co that's W, H, O,
o, l, o, G, y.co, to find out
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00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,280
how to be. Be an ordinary
disciple maker, and have
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00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,500
communities that make disciples.
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:01,480
Jessie Cruickshank: Well,
welcome to the ordinary
2
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:05,320
discipleship Podcast. I'm Jesse
Cruikshank, and today I have
3
00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,980
with me my dear friend Daniel
Yang. Daniel and I have known
4
00:00:08,980 --> 00:00:12,760
each other. Gosh, I don't know.
I think we're going on 1112,
5
00:00:13,060 --> 00:00:13,900
years. I'm not
6
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:14,980
Unknown: sure. Yeah,
7
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,840
Jessie Cruickshank: but Daniel
and I knew each other three
8
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,740
careers ago, and we have both
changed different seasons of
9
00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:29,540
life in the time. And for me,
Daniel has been one of those
10
00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:32,720
people in my life that is like a
spiritual brother to me. It
11
00:00:32,780 --> 00:00:36,800
doesn't matter what my season
is, what his season is. I always
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Daniel. I always feel connected
to you. You're always the Lord
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brings you to my mind. I pray
for you regularly, and so I
14
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don't know what that means in
the grand scheme of things,
15
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maybe, maybe we live in the same
cul de sac, although I don't
16
00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:54,100
think that we're like cul de sac
people, but in heaven, like
17
00:00:54,100 --> 00:00:56,440
maybe we live in the same
housing development. It's
18
00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:01,680
probably something cooler than a
cul de sac. But just feel like
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00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,760
you, you've been part of my life
the last decade or so in this
20
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,600
very spiritual brother kind of
way. And I'm so excited to
21
00:01:09,660 --> 00:01:13,980
introduce my audience to you and
the amazing work that you're
22
00:01:13,980 --> 00:01:17,580
doing with World Relief these
days. So welcome to the ordinary
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discipleship
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00:01:18,180 --> 00:01:21,680
Daniel Yang: podcast that's so
cool, so special. Thanks. Jesse,
25
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yeah, I feel the same way. I'm
just scrolling through our text
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right now. I'm like, wow, you
know, it's just the the range of
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experiences and processing and
prayer in seasons that we've
28
00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,380
been through together, you know?
So that that is makes this
29
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conversation even, even more
special. And you know, the work
30
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that you're doing your gift mix
like, I feel like I'm always
31
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connected to people that have
like this, this, like, eclectic
32
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convergence of skill and life
story. So I think that's part of
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the reason why I was gonna say
quirky. But it's not a quirky
34
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thing. It's a eclectic, that's
my word eclectic. So
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Jessie Cruickshank: which could
also mean quirky,
36
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Daniel Yang: which? Well, I
mean, who else does wilderness
37
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experience in neuroscience and
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Jessie Cruickshank: not a lot of
people, but exactly. But will
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00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,960
you introduce, introduce
yourself to our audience and
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00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,380
share a little bit about the
work that you do with World
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Relief, and whatever backstory
you feel like you want to add to
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that. Yeah,
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00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:35,540
Daniel Yang: yeah, yeah. So, as
you mentioned, I work for an
44
00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:39,500
organization World Relief as a
Senior Director of Global
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00:02:39,500 --> 00:02:43,060
Mission and church movements.
And World Relief has been an
46
00:02:43,060 --> 00:02:47,800
organization that has been on
the front lines for over 80
47
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,060
years, front lines of the result
of consequences of war,
48
00:02:52,060 --> 00:02:56,260
catastrophe, disaster. It's an
NGO. It's a humanitarian
49
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organization, but it's it's much
more than that. It is really the
50
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church being in the places that
is hardest in the world and in
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the United States for nearly
five decades, World Relief has
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00:03:11,580 --> 00:03:15,360
helped churches work with
vulnerable immigrants, refugees,
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00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,900
traumatized people who have come
to this country and then are
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00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:23,480
trying to restart their life,
and I never had envisioned
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00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,300
myself working for a
humanitarian mission
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organization like World Relief,
but it's always, it has sort of
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always been, I think, I guess, a
natural place for me to end up,
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because of my own family. Story
is former refugees from Laos and
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came to this country in the late
70s, 1979 and really just taking
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on multiple layers of identity,
whether that's a national
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identity as an American, we
became Christians through this
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process of refugee resettlement.
So there's a religious,
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spiritual, you know, shaping and
formation that happened in our
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refugee experience and then the
different contexts that I've
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lived in. You know, my parents
were resettled in East Moline,
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Illinois, which is kind of
rural, small town, cornfields
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Illinois, but very quickly moved
us into inner city, Detroit. If
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you all have seen the movie Gran
Torino, that gives you a good
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sense of, sort of how I grew up
ethnically I'm Hmong. And so
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that movie was about the Hmong
refugee immigrants that have
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kind of restarted their lives in
inner city, Detroit. So for me,
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I feel like my work. You know,
they say this about PhD
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research, that sometimes
research is me search, and maybe
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it's sort of kind of true that I
now work for World of leave
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because I'm I'm trying to, like,
make meaning of my story, if
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that makes sense, and this gives
me proximity to other people's
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stories to help me understand my
own story as well. So along the
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way, my wife and I, we got.
Married at 19. So that's
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another, you know, interesting
layer. We have five kids. I had
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my first career as an engineer,
and then eventually pastored,
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planted churches, missiology, so
all that, yeah,
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Jessie Cruickshank: you have
five beautiful children who what
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the oldest is in college, right?
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Daniel Yang: Oldest is now just
working, 24
85
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Jessie Cruickshank: Okay,
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00:05:24,379 --> 00:05:28,519
Daniel Yang: and then my
youngest is seven, so pretty big
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range,
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Jessie Cruickshank: dude, it's
it's a huge range. You're gonna
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be a parent forever.
90
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,280
Daniel Yang: I know isn't that
crazy we were because the first
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three were like 2422 and 20 and
then there's a nine year gap
92
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between the third and fourth. So
we thought we were going to be
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empty nesters at 45
94
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Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah. What
happened to that plan?
95
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Daniel Yang: Well, you know, God
has his own way of writing your
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story. So, so I often joke with
people like I have two sets of
97
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children with the same spouse,
because it feels that way.
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Jessie Cruickshank: Well, yeah,
but your wife, Linda, is
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amazing. She's crazy. She at
least this time last year,
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worked also in refugee
resettlement,
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Daniel Yang: yes and Yep. She
feels very called to that work.
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And so she also works for World
Relief. And still, still, God
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has her there. So she works
directly with refugees looking
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for work. It's amazing. Like
her, she literally is helping to
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save lives by helping people
find work. And so, yeah, it's, I
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really love the work that she's
doing.
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Jessie Cruickshank: So it's so
beautiful. Like I remember we
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met being nerds trying to help
the church on a missiologist
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Council, and like trying to help
the church in North America see
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its neighbor, reach out to its
neighborhoods, reach out to the
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next generations. We nerded off
around Gen Z and church planting
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for a while, and now it seems
like life has taken us in this
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direction where we're not
trying. We're not only trying to
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help people love their neighbor,
but also love their enemy, love
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their friend, see who they're
called to even more broadly. And
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I remember, you remember Boston,
I'm sure, I'm sure you remember
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right? Like Boston gathering,
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Daniel Yang: yeah,
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00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,020
Jessie Cruickshank: forge Ford
Foster was, was, I think it was
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pivotal in a lot of different in
multiple ways, but one of which
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is that your story actually
helped me understand my story
122
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and helped me and helped me name
some things that I couldn't have
123
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articulated before without you.
And you were sharing, and I know
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you, you know this, but, but you
were sharing the different
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perspectives and the different
narratives that exist in people
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groups in in America. So there's
the everything is getting worse.
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Narrative, like, like, of course
the rapture is going to come.
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It's so bad, and it's just
getting worse, and so Jesus has
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to come get us. So there's that
narrative. There's a narrative
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of, hey, the world is getting
better. It's growing and who God
131
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is for me in this this time. And
as you were naming these
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different narratives of these
different populations, and I'll
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have you share that
specifically, because I'm
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already screwing it up, what I
remember the most clear is that
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you shared what an immigrant and
a refugee narrative is. So an
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immigrant and a refugee coming
to America, how God has saved
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them, how God has helped them,
and of course, of course, God's
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for them. Of course, God's with
them. Coming out of these
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terrible circumstances that
causes somebody to be a migrant
140
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and a refugee that God is the
author of that story. For them,
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and the way that you described
it really named some things for
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me, because coming from a middle
of nowhere, Wyoming, and not
143
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feeling very connected to the
evangelical Christian
144
00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:00,360
establishment that I was serving
in vocationally like I didn't
145
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,880
understand why they always
thought the world was ending. I
146
00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,280
didn't understand why they
always thought things were bad,
147
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:11,820
because God saved me from my
life, and and and I, and growing
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up next to the reservation of
the Indian Reservation, I felt,
149
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I'd always felt like an
immigrant into evangelical
150
00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:26,120
Christianity, and so you named
some of those things for me, and
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I, I really appreciate that. So
so maybe kind of if you could
152
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share just a little bit of those
different narratives for our
153
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audience and and help us
understand the way that a
154
00:09:37,940 --> 00:09:43,480
migrant and a refugee actually
experiences God and and that
155
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story that they're living in
that God is that God is writing
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for them?
157
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,280
Daniel Yang: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thanks. Thanks for setting that
158
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,340
up, because I do remember us
having those conversations and
159
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how, in some ways, the the
immigrant. Narrative, although
160
00:10:01,500 --> 00:10:05,640
comes from a particular kind of
life experience, there is a
161
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,320
shared experience of like, you
know, trying to make meaning of
162
00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,400
our trauma, trying to make
meaning of our not just personal
163
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,520
story, but sort of like, what
led up to those moments of
164
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,960
trauma in our lives. And so
that's a human activity. You
165
00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,660
know, it's not, it's not
relegated to the immigrant or
166
00:10:23,660 --> 00:10:26,480
refugee experience, but
immigrants and refugees do
167
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,100
experience that in a very unique
way. What I shared in Boston,
168
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,940
and also have been spending a
lot of time, you know, even in
169
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the last it's probably been
three or four years since Boston
170
00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:41,680
thinking through this. I at that
point I was I was talking about
171
00:10:41,680 --> 00:10:46,120
some of this in terms of what
sometimes is called the arrival
172
00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,800
narrative. At times have used
the term fulfillment narrative.
173
00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,760
The Arrival narrative sort of is
this idea that like
174
00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:58,780
displacement. That's probably
the larger word for the
175
00:10:58,780 --> 00:11:02,100
different categories of people
that have had to leave home,
176
00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:08,460
displacement is a disruptor, and
it causes a very traumatic life
177
00:11:08,460 --> 00:11:12,600
experience. And then for those
who have felt like they've had
178
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,320
to force leave home, like they
were forced to leave home, they
179
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,040
can't return. How do they make
meaning of that? You know, how
180
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:24,320
do I? How do I make meaning of
the war catastrophe, the
181
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:32,120
killing, the lost lives and and
then to then restart your life
182
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,440
here in America in the 21st
Century, and the arrival
183
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,360
narrative really has an
imagination for well, God, you,
184
00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:47,320
you, you don't author war or
catastrophe. You, you surely did
185
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,640
not cause these things to
happen, but you are sovereign
186
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:57,460
enough to direct and to and to
make good. And so the arrival
187
00:11:57,460 --> 00:12:03,780
narrative is discovering God
amid that, you know, and asking,
188
00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:08,820
God, where are you in my
family's experience? And this is
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00:12:08,820 --> 00:12:13,500
goes on to the second and the
third generation, and it begins
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to give a bit of like meaning
and purpose to the pain. And
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part of the reason why I've
often often talked about it as a
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fulfillment narrative as well is
that there becomes a full circle
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moment when you begin realizing
that, Oh, wow. Like as somebody
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who is once a part of a
community that was highly
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traumatized, I now am also a
part of what God is doing to
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bring healing to others, right?
And so there's sort of a full
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circle fulfillment concept
there. And again, I don't think
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this is unique to the immigrant
and refugee experience. I think
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it's a human project, but the
way that we've experienced it,
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and it takes, it's generate, it
takes generations, right? It's
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not something that you can
experience within five to 10
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years or even 40 years. You
know, it takes, you know, my
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parents, in my generation, and
my children, and we're still
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asking that question, Jesus has
been the lens through which
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we've tried to understand our
experience and our trauma and
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tried to reimagine our
experiences. And it's not
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simple, like it's not as easy as
saying, Well, Jesus is on the
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throne. That's not what I'm
saying. Although he is on the
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throne, thank God. And it's not
as simple as saying, Well, now
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that I'm a believer now and I'm
saved, then at least I'm going
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to heaven. Because it's not that
simple either, although that is
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a beautiful fact, it's this
reimagining of like Jesus in the
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project of war. And like you
were saying earlier, when you
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are othered, and you see people
as enemies, and you see people
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as you know, causing harm and
violence, and you're asking the
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question, Jesus, how do you it's
very much what Miroslav both
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wrote about back in the 90s. I'm
drawing a blank on his name, on
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the book of his name, but he
talks about, essentially, how do
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you find Jesus amid conflict and
tension and even violence? And I
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feel like immigrants and
refugees are the embodiment of
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of what that looks like.
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Jessie Cruickshank: What do you
think is the reason that God is
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asking us, as the body of
Christ, always in Scripture, to
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like be a safe place for them,
to receive them, to show
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hospitality, to welcome them, to
feed them, to take care of the
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foreigner, the widow, the
orphan, the immigrant, the
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person who is homeless or and
country less and things like
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that. Like, what do you think
the Lord's plan is, and why he
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challenges us to do that?
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Daniel Yang: It's his nature. I
mean, it is. It is his nature to
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to give of yourself to find a
greater sense of life and
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completion. I think it all flows
from the character of God, who
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he is, and what it means to
instill in a people his nature
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and his character, and so I
think that's kind of like the
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big the big idea, you know, I
think when it comes to the
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experiential aspect, what? So,
you know, just to kind of, what
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does it mean for the church to
create welcome for those that
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are we would consider vulnerable
in society? Because in some
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ways, that is acting according
to our nature. We're we're in
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the image of God. We're
especially as as followers of
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Jesus. We're modeling, you know,
our life after Jesus, which is
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an incarnational, sacrificial,
other oriented lifestyle. And
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it's in, in some ways, you know,
Jesus said this himself. It's in
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losing yourself that you sort of
find yourself right. There is no
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indication from the Bible where,
if you accumulate a lot of
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things, and if you, if you pack
your storehouses, then you are
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more like God, you know, like
there's no teaching in the
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Bible, and that says, If you
fill up your storehouses and if
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you relish yourselves in the
most comfortable places, then
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you will find more of God,
right? It's sort of the
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opposite. In Zechariah, when God
is speaking to His people. He's
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saying, hey, you know, if you
turn your ear away from the
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orphans, the poor, the widow and
the foreigner, the way that you
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turn your ear away from them,
that's exactly what I'll do to
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you. In some ways, a part of it
is to reveal to us again that
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that is his nature to to empty
yourselves. I mean, it's, it's
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what Paul writes about Jesus in
Philippians. He, he, he divests
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himself. The practical, you
know, aspect of that is when I
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love somebody who almost,
virtually impossible, can't give
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to me what I've given to them,
then there is a beautiful
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exchange of life that that
happens that is close to the
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Divine Right. That's what Jesus
is saying at the parable of the
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banquet. You know, you invite
those who can repay you. What's
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the point? And so there is
something almost divine about
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reaching out to those who can't
repay you. And so I think in
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some ways, having seen this
happen in my life, having this,
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seen this happen over and over
in churches and everyday
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Christians, you know, you know
the saying, you know, I received
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more than I've given like that
is certainly true. And I think
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the only self preserving thing
about that, because I think
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there's some, some, some some
self preservation involved in
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doing this kind of work is that
you realize that this is some
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eschatology here for your
listeners. But you know, when
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you get to the end of
everything, when you get to the
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end of like, all the pain and
the suffering, Revelation
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Chapter 22 and you see Jesus
face to face, like the intensity
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in which we believe that we
should love those that are most
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different from us, like that
will be given back to us, and
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it'll it'll be revealed to us,
like how important that was,
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like that level of Like giving
and so and that that's why the
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Bible talks about like having
crowns and treasure in heaven
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and stuff like that, which I
don't think is necessarily like
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physical, material wealth. It is
the intensity in which you give
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out and pour out your life on
this side of his coming that's
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going to be translated into
meaningful wealth on the other
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side,
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Jessie Cruickshank: yeah, I like
to say that we're not
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accountable for what we know,
but we're accountable for how we
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love. And
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Unknown: you
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Jessie Cruickshank: know what I
what I love about what you're
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saying, If I can connect some
dots that are that are happening
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in my head, is that the the
person who's been on this
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journey, the refugee, the
immigrant, the migrant, because
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of the trauma they've
experienced, which is why
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they're moving, right? They're
not just moving because they're
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trying to take advantage of
something. They're moving
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because they cannot live where
they are like something terrible
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is happening, right? It is. It
is a migration born out of
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trauma and trial and horrific
circumstances and suffering and
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all of that. And so they,
because of that journey, they
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have asked questions of God.
They've experienced God in ways.
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And then they come, you know,
if, if I'm sitting in my church
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in North America, in Denver,
they're coming to my door, and
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there's an. Understanding they
have of God in a way that they
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process their trauma, or a way
that they're talking with God
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about that that I don't know,
right? I might have trauma in my
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background, but I don't
necessarily know how to process
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it, because maybe I haven't seen
it, maybe I haven't asked those
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questions, but, but when I think
about the gift that migrants and
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refugees are because of their
experience, because of the way
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that they have encountered God.
There's an understanding they
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have of God that is a gift to
everyone else. So like to reject
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them is like rejecting the
Prophet. It's like turning out
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the you know, rejecting Jesus
even because you're like, Oh,
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you have a thing, but I don't
actually need it. And so we
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don't see that they have
something that we need. Because
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I think we often think about
taking care of migrants and
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foreigners and refugees as a
charity, not as a gift of God to
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us to teach us something about
his nature and his character
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that we wouldn't necessarily
understand otherwise. And so
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when we reject them, we're
actually rejecting this gift of
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God, this part of his nature,
this messenger, this missionary
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I know, I know some of the
people that we know are
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literally missionaries to North
America that are being, you
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know, removed or a danger for
things like that, and, and so
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we're saying, Hey, we don't need
your message. We're fine. And,
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and so even more than an act of
charity, which I think on some
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level, it is, but it's actually
a gift to be received, you know,
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these these people and their
stories, and it makes me think
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about what Jim Wilder teaches
about enemy mode, where, you
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know, enemy mode is the state of
the brain, where we perceive
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that what the person in front of
us is an enemy. And there,
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there's lots of reasons, and
we're all different, so whatever
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triggers us, and we're like,
wait a minute, I don't know if
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this person is safe. And so we
go, our brain goes into enemy
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mode. So it goes, like, into
this lockdown, right? It's like
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we put up a force field while we
assess the risk and we figure
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out what to do. The problem is
that when we're in enemy mode,
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and it could be it's it's for
protection, it's in order to
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strategize. But the problem of
it is that if we stay there, we
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cannot receive from that which
is other than us. We cannot
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receive from that which is
outside of us, which includes
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not only that person in front of
us, but also the Holy Spirit. We
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literally cannot hear the Holy
Spirit when we're in enemy mode
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and we're perceiving that who is
in front of us as an enemy. So
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not only can we not receive from
them? We can't receive from God.
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We are not receiving God through
them, and we're not hearing God
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on our own anyway. And so I
just, I just think about how God
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is always challenging us to love
our enemy, to receive from that
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which is other than us, and just
how much we're failing at that
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right now, and I and I feel like
that's a strategy of the demonic
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that is the spiritual warfare of
our day. Because I don't think
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that at least the people that I
talk to are not that prone to
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thinking of other people as
enemies, right? I think, I think
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we're being encouraged in that.
I think we're being
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propagandized into that. I think
the algorithms on our phones and
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all of these things are are
pushing that, because then we
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click and we do things. But how
is that experience landing with
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the people that you work with?
You know, if, if we think about
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the person who's come from a
place, maybe they're Christian,
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and then they came from a
country where there's
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persecution, and now they're
here, and now they're
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experiencing persecution. Like,
like, what is? How is this
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posture of enemy mode landing
with the people that you serve,
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and in now they're going to be a
refugee twice. I don't I mean,
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like, what are, how are they
experiencing this and and what
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is that like for for people,
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Daniel Yang: yeah, yeah. I mean,
and some of maybe what you're
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alluding to is the change in
posture and policies in in the
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United States right now, towards
certain categories of
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immigrants, and especially those
who losing protected status,
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legal status. And then those
which announced as of the
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recording on this particular
podcast a little bit over a week
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ago, even refugees that were
admitted during Biden, even all
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of them 230,000 and will be
reinvestigated. So breaking the
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enemy mode. I mean, that is,
that's a huge summing block,
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because I don't think we quite
know how socialized we are into
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categorizing certain kinds of
immigrants as as enemies and so
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and this is. Always been a
challenge for every generation,
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throughout not just Western
history, but world history, the
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language that a particular group
of people will drain your
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economy, will threaten the
security of your country, and
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then are taking resources from
another you know, demographic.
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This is sort of old hat language
and rhetoric, and it gets
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00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,420
rehashed in different ways, and
certainly in some cases like
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00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,300
those, things have happened
before. So I don't want to say
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that, that that all of that is
completely untrue. You know, we
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have seen it in nations where
there are times where security
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is being threatened and stuff
like that, but usually not by
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00:25:42,940 --> 00:25:47,440
refugees. You know, it's usually
by, like, actual military force
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where, where I've seen this
happen that is disturbing to me
393
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is where it used to be that,
let's say refugees, which is a
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very classified group of people.
It used to be that, like,
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Americans weren't afraid of
refugees, you know. But almost
396
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:09,120
within a few years, there's now
this layer and veneer of like
397
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:14,220
skepticism, you know. And the
average American in the world
398
00:26:14,460 --> 00:26:17,760
might, they might have not
thought this before, but now
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00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,560
there's a check, you know. And I
think enemy making starts with
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that, you know, that suspicion
where it's just kind of like,
401
00:26:24,620 --> 00:26:27,260
Yeah, but do I really know
everything about that person?
402
00:26:27,740 --> 00:26:32,960
And do I, you know? And so, and
it's that, that tussle between
403
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that, that check, that's, you
know, and then all of a sudden,
404
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:40,400
there are reasons for you to
then give in to that suspicion,
405
00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:44,980
and then, and then, usually it
becomes almost conspiracy,
406
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,640
spiritorial, or you actually
have a negative experience, like
407
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,380
you experience a negative
experience, and and and then,
408
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:58,900
which justifies your suspicion.
And then, you know, and then you
409
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,760
turn, turn into enemy mode. And
I feel like that is something
410
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:08,340
that has always been a threat.
And I think Jesus's words, the
411
00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:12,060
Sermon on the Mount, you know,
to love your enemy, that is sort
412
00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:16,380
of the the ethic in the morality
of what it means to be a
413
00:27:16,380 --> 00:27:22,100
follower of Jesus like that is a
constant, like tension that is a
414
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,540
our move towards our enemy, for
the sake of reconciliation and
415
00:27:26,540 --> 00:27:31,640
for the sake of love, is a
discipline. It is a spiritual
416
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,560
discipline, you know, just like
reading your Bible, just like
417
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,800
going into church, you know,
being in spaces, you know, not
418
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,040
saying, like every space should
be this, but being in spaces
419
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,920
where you often feel
uncomfortable and you might
420
00:27:48,220 --> 00:27:51,160
suspect something about a group
of people and they might suspect
421
00:27:51,340 --> 00:27:56,800
something about you, like that
is a discipline to be in, and in
422
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,700
some ways, that's always been
where the church grew, and the
423
00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:03,480
church has been like, awesome,
and that's part of the reason
424
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,800
why we understand the persecuted
church. It often grows under
425
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:13,140
adversarial context, because the
church begins to love beyond its
426
00:28:13,140 --> 00:28:17,340
limit and and then that breaks
the walls, and it breaks the
427
00:28:17,340 --> 00:28:21,440
barriers, right? And so we see
that all the time, Jesse and I
428
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,340
think that institutionally,
we're at a point now where
429
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,740
institutions have felt like I'm
seeing institutions like other,
430
00:28:30,860 --> 00:28:33,080
you know, other categories of
people. It's not just
431
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,040
individuals, but it's
institutions. And so I feel like
432
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,140
we're in a moment now where we
have to really reimagine like
433
00:28:41,140 --> 00:28:45,940
loving your enemy as a basic
discipline of what it means to
434
00:28:45,940 --> 00:28:47,020
be a follower of Jesus.
435
00:28:47,679 --> 00:28:50,679
Jessie Cruickshank: Yeah, I
can't agree more. I mean, I've
436
00:28:50,679 --> 00:28:53,919
studied some other religions,
and I'm not not super
437
00:28:53,919 --> 00:28:57,879
comprehensive, but I have not
encountered another faith that
438
00:28:58,359 --> 00:29:03,479
where, where the people are told
it is a command to love your
439
00:29:03,479 --> 00:29:06,659
enemy in the other other faiths
that I've looked at, it's
440
00:29:06,659 --> 00:29:10,319
transactional. It's like, you
know, if they're your enemy, tax
441
00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:16,019
them or, you know, put them
outside the camp and and the
442
00:29:16,019 --> 00:29:23,359
faith of Jesus says, invite them
into your home. Bring them in,
443
00:29:23,959 --> 00:29:27,499
bless them, keep them warm,
which is what putting coals on
444
00:29:27,499 --> 00:29:30,979
their head is to like, like,
like, send them with warmth and
445
00:29:30,979 --> 00:29:36,679
blessing, you know, take care of
them. And as I I just can't find
446
00:29:36,679 --> 00:29:40,599
another religion that asks and
commands its followers to do
447
00:29:40,659 --> 00:29:46,359
that. So, so not only does Jesus
say love your neighbor, but then
448
00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:49,839
you also have to love your enemy
and treat them as if they're
449
00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:52,779
family. And sometimes are, you
know, sometimes those are
450
00:29:52,779 --> 00:29:55,659
synonymous. But the requirement
is always there. So there's
451
00:29:55,659 --> 00:30:00,299
like, there's literally no one
we're allowed to be mean. To,
452
00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:04,319
there's literally no one we're
allowed to dehumanize. There's
453
00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:07,799
literally no one like even go to
the people who are in prison,
454
00:30:08,219 --> 00:30:14,639
you know, so, so regardless of
of deserve merit. You know,
455
00:30:14,699 --> 00:30:19,499
we're, we are required and
commanded by Jesus to go to to
456
00:30:19,499 --> 00:30:22,819
love, to bless, to take care of
and we and we're because we're
457
00:30:22,819 --> 00:30:27,019
supposed to just let God manage
the what we deserve and what we
458
00:30:27,019 --> 00:30:29,719
don't deserve in this in this
world.
459
00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:33,020
Daniel Yang: Yeah, and a part of
that, and the reason why, again,
460
00:30:33,020 --> 00:30:36,740
if you go back to that part in
Matthew five, when Jesus is
461
00:30:36,740 --> 00:30:39,080
talking about this, you know, he
says, You heard him say that,
462
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,160
you know, love your enemy and
then hate your or love your
463
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:48,460
neighbor and hate your enemy. I
think he I mean, you know this
464
00:30:48,460 --> 00:30:52,000
more than I do, but Jesus has
mastered the human experience
465
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,820
like he knows how the body is
programmed, like he knows why
466
00:30:57,820 --> 00:31:01,260
our bodies tense up. He knows
why our bodies go into fight or
467
00:31:01,260 --> 00:31:05,820
flight mode, and he knows how a
body can release tension and
468
00:31:05,820 --> 00:31:08,520
heal itself. And, you know,
maybe he doesn't know in the way
469
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,200
that a medical doctor knows it.
I don't know, but I think he's
470
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,940
introducing, reintroducing into
the human experience, in that
471
00:31:17,940 --> 00:31:24,860
mandate that like the only way
to really overcome fear in
472
00:31:24,860 --> 00:31:29,480
situations where you're going to
fight all the time, or you're
473
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,020
going to you know, because
hating and fighting and violence
474
00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:38,360
are all sort of part of the same
spectrum, Right, is to disable
475
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:45,040
that mechanism in in your soul,
your, you know? I mean,
476
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,060
sometimes you will will locate
it to the amygdala, right? But
477
00:31:49,060 --> 00:31:52,000
it's probably broader than just
that, that that place in our
478
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,760
brainstem. See, I'm going into
your field of expertise now.
479
00:31:54,819 --> 00:31:54,999
Unknown: Keep
480
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,440
Jessie Cruickshank: going. Keep
going.
481
00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:01,679
Daniel Yang: But, but, um, and I
feel like, you know, Jesus is
482
00:32:01,679 --> 00:32:07,019
being very He's helping us to
identify like our seed of fear
483
00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:13,559
and deface our fear. And the way
to you have to cross a
484
00:32:13,559 --> 00:32:18,719
threshold, and the threshold is
going from like fearing and
485
00:32:18,719 --> 00:32:23,839
hating to love. Now I don't
think he is saying, like,
486
00:32:24,439 --> 00:32:29,239
necessarily, have, you know,
tremendous feelings for the
487
00:32:29,239 --> 00:32:32,119
person who's murdered your
parents, like, I mean, and maybe
488
00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:34,399
he's saying some version of
that, but I think what he's
489
00:32:34,399 --> 00:32:38,359
generally saying is that, like,
there are categories of people
490
00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:44,499
that society have told you, has
told you to be suspicious of, to
491
00:32:44,499 --> 00:32:48,159
not love. You know, if you're a
Jew, it's the Gentile, right?
492
00:32:48,579 --> 00:32:52,239
And he's saying, we have, we
have to overcome that. And one
493
00:32:52,239 --> 00:32:57,459
of the markers of you being a
part of the kingdom is that you
494
00:32:57,459 --> 00:33:01,499
know that a marker of being a
part of the kingdom is that you
495
00:33:01,499 --> 00:33:05,159
press into that fear and that
hate until it becomes love,
496
00:33:05,159 --> 00:33:08,399
right? And that's how you
actually bring the kingdom.
497
00:33:08,399 --> 00:33:12,059
That's how you actually usher it
about. And I think it's a
498
00:33:12,059 --> 00:33:18,359
strategic It's experiential, and
it's a part of what Christians
499
00:33:18,359 --> 00:33:20,779
are called to do in order to
usher the kingdom,
500
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,620
Jessie Cruickshank: I mean, and
to be, to be a little nerdy like
501
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:28,640
it's not only necessary for our
spiritual development, but it's
502
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,280
also necessary for our
biological development. Because,
503
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,580
as I've been looking at and
leaning into loving this idea of
504
00:33:34,580 --> 00:33:38,360
loving your enemy for the last
year, and looking at how the
505
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,820
first, the first person that we
decide is our enemy is actually
506
00:33:42,820 --> 00:33:47,620
our parent. So as an infant, you
are crying and you need stuff,
507
00:33:47,620 --> 00:33:51,040
and the parent doesn't fast
enough, or they get it wrong,
508
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,140
right? You actually are hungry
and they're changing your
509
00:33:53,140 --> 00:33:55,420
diaper, or vice versa, or
whatever. And like, if you've
510
00:33:55,420 --> 00:33:59,140
ever seen an angry baby, like
babies get angry, it's one of
511
00:33:59,140 --> 00:34:02,820
the core emotions that we're
born with. And so the first
512
00:34:03,180 --> 00:34:07,020
enemy that we have is our
caregiver. And so the first
513
00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:13,200
enemy we have to overcome that
anger and that othering is is
514
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,140
our caregiver, so we can receive
from them. So we're so we have
515
00:34:16,140 --> 00:34:20,120
to repair, we have to reconnect
with the caregiver in order to
516
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,080
receive from them in order to,
like, receive food and warmth
517
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,400
and love and, you know,
nurturing. And so as an infant,
518
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,640
it's a parent, and then it
becomes like a sibling or a
519
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,880
playmate who has the toy that we
don't have, or has the cookie we
520
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,460
don't have. Or, in my house, it
was growing up as the bathroom,
521
00:34:38,060 --> 00:34:40,900
you know, we had one bathroom
and three kids. So there was,
522
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,520
there was a fight over bathroom
time because it was a limited
523
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,260
resource and and so you have to
learn how to forgive, repent,
524
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,700
reconnect with your enemy, you
know, sibling or playmate. And
525
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,580
then we go to school and we
experience people who don't like
526
00:34:57,580 --> 00:35:01,440
us, teachers and and. If we
haven't figured out how to
527
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,420
repair with our enemy, we
actually then take that on in
528
00:35:06,420 --> 00:35:09,360
order to be identify with the
person that we're trying to
529
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,240
connect with. And we make
ourself our enemy. And so we
530
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:16,260
take on the posture of an our
enemy towards us. So if you have
531
00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:20,120
a parent who you can't earn
their affection, then you end up
532
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,400
like over identifying with them
and hating yourself. And so we
533
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,060
turn that enemy on ourself in
order, because we're created for
534
00:35:29,060 --> 00:35:32,120
connection and and, and when
we're in enemy mode, we're not
535
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,240
connected, we're not connected
to God, and we're not connected
536
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:40,540
to each other. And so, so if we
don't learn how to repair with a
537
00:35:40,540 --> 00:35:46,120
parent or a sibling, a playmate,
a schoolmate, then we get
538
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,340
stunted biologically, and then
that, I think that remains with
539
00:35:51,340 --> 00:35:55,180
us spiritually. So so for me,
loving your enemy, repairing,
540
00:35:55,180 --> 00:36:01,620
reconciling is is the core of
what we're supposed to do in
541
00:36:01,620 --> 00:36:05,220
this life. It's how we receive
from Jesus, it's how we hear
542
00:36:05,220 --> 00:36:09,420
God. It's how like so for me,
even my definition of sin is
543
00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:15,180
separation. So it is the the
death that sin brings, while
544
00:36:15,180 --> 00:36:19,500
that reconnection brings life.
So, so when we treat the
545
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:24,200
vulnerable like this. We are
operating in sin, not not
546
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,880
idealistically, because loving
our enemy is a command at every
547
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,500
age of our life, at every stage
of our development, it's not a
548
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:39,620
thing to aspire to. It's
actually necessary. And so I
549
00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:44,680
just my heart for the body of
Christ right now is to is that
550
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,060
we would discover this and we
would be like, Oh no, that's
551
00:36:49,060 --> 00:36:52,660
actually more important than
attending a church event. Is
552
00:36:52,660 --> 00:36:57,460
learning how to love the the
person who I feel other than
553
00:36:57,820 --> 00:37:00,780
right now, learning how to bless
them, learning how to go to
554
00:37:00,780 --> 00:37:05,280
them, learning how to be open to
connection and and moving
555
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,540
through because, because unity
is a choice. Right, moving
556
00:37:09,540 --> 00:37:11,940
through that you actually have
to choose to move through that
557
00:37:11,940 --> 00:37:15,120
you have to choose to forgive.
You have to choose to repent.
558
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:20,160
And I just, I don't know how we
experience the kingdom without
559
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,960
that. I don't know where the
kingdom exists without that. So
560
00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:27,080
my body, my heart hurts for the
body of Christ right now,
561
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:32,060
because we're not experiencing
the kingdom. And so I'm just,
562
00:37:32,060 --> 00:37:35,360
I'm just wondering if, if you
could, you could maybe give us
563
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:40,040
some sort of like hope. Because
right now I'm like, Ah, you know
564
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,280
the kingdom, the kingdom
continues to come in our midst
565
00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:50,380
as we do this. What is, what is
something that the people of of
566
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,320
the Body of Christ, the people
who are like, I'm not okay. I
567
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,660
know this isn't the kingdom, but
I don't I don't know what's
568
00:37:55,660 --> 00:37:58,900
going on. You don't feel okay.
Like, how? How would you
569
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:03,780
encourage them right now? Or,
what? What might you say to them
570
00:38:04,020 --> 00:38:07,020
in this, in this moment, in our
in our culture and in our
571
00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:07,560
history?
572
00:38:08,340 --> 00:38:11,820
Daniel Yang: Yeah, I'm gonna try
to make this as sort of
573
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:15,300
practical and as relatable,
because I'm realized that
574
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,480
everybody listening is probably
not necessarily a church leader
575
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,860
or institutional leader, and
you're, you're you're just a
576
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,880
everyday follower of Jesus, and
you just really want to bring
577
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,560
the kingdom to wherever you're
at. I think it is important to
578
00:38:31,580 --> 00:38:39,380
to continue to have a strong
sense of like biblical identity,
579
00:38:39,380 --> 00:38:44,740
because the pull away towards
that in, you know, whether it's
580
00:38:44,740 --> 00:38:48,580
national or ethnic or racial
identity, which are all really
581
00:38:48,580 --> 00:38:52,720
important categories, but
rooting ourselves in Scripture
582
00:38:52,780 --> 00:38:57,040
and allowing the scripture to
confront biases is so important.
583
00:38:58,060 --> 00:39:00,580
And so that begins with a work
of like the Holy Spirit.
584
00:39:00,580 --> 00:39:02,500
Because, you know, I mean, I'll
be honest, there are a lot of
585
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:04,980
Christians. Of Christians out
there that are speaking on this
586
00:39:04,980 --> 00:39:08,040
issue, and they're not informed
by a conviction of the Holy
587
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,000
Spirit. They're informed by the
other side of the political
588
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,000
spectrum, right? So I'm just,
I'm and maybe there's nothing
589
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,020
wrong with that in particular,
but when my advice is to be in
590
00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:22,040
the Scripture so that your
conviction comes from the Holy
591
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,300
Spirit and your quiet times. And
then don't be afraid to exercise
592
00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:32,240
your voice. And it may be scary,
you know, it may be scary to to
593
00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:35,600
say, you know, to correct your
pastor and say, Hey, I think
594
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,200
what you said from the pulpit is
not consistent with the ethic
595
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,400
that Jesus presents in Matthew
in, Matthew five. And I'm not
596
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,520
asking anybody to to send email
complaints to the pastor, but
597
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,460
what, what I'm saying is that
sometimes people feel like my
598
00:39:48,460 --> 00:39:52,000
pastor is not being vocal, or
he's he's actually perpetuating,
599
00:39:52,420 --> 00:39:55,960
you know, othering other people.
And so exercising your voice is
600
00:39:56,260 --> 00:40:00,720
in the right, in the right, you
know, approach. Is really
601
00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:06,840
important, and then finding
healthy coalitions of people to
602
00:40:07,140 --> 00:40:14,100
be a sounding board so that you
can have a outlet to release,
603
00:40:14,460 --> 00:40:17,880
you know, the pent up negativity
that often we might feel
604
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,080
because, you know, for those of
us who especially feel like
605
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,880
advocates. We always take on
through empathy and sympathy,
606
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,640
you know, the energy of other
people. And so you need places
607
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,260
to release that, to process
that, and to be reminded that
608
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,220
it's not all you know, your own
work. And then the fourth thing
609
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,260
I would say is, for most of us,
we're not going to save the
610
00:40:41,260 --> 00:40:49,420
world, but be in proximity to
people in places where you can
611
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,940
create impact and so and it's
probably as simple as finding
612
00:40:54,940 --> 00:40:58,300
somebody at the school where
your kids go to school that feel
613
00:40:58,300 --> 00:41:02,220
most threatened right now by the
recent policies, and being a
614
00:41:02,220 --> 00:41:05,580
friend to them and loving them
and caring for them and letting
615
00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:10,140
them know that they have the
image of God. And because for
616
00:41:10,140 --> 00:41:15,240
most of us, paralysis becomes
apathy. And so the way to kind
617
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:18,360
of break out of apathy is to not
be paralyzed. And way to not be
618
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,460
paralyzed is to find the little,
small things where the kingdom
619
00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:26,900
can break in, and that is as
simple as finding a person who
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00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:30,440
feels most threatened right now
in being present in their life,
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00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:35,780
and that that human connection
of being present in someone's
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00:41:35,780 --> 00:41:38,120
life where they feel like
they're a vulnerable immigrant
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00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,680
right now, that's something that
even if they get removed from
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00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,800
this country, like that
experience that they had with
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00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,480
you, they'll take with them. But
what we're seeing is that when
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you're willing to be in
proximate spaces with them and
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00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:58,240
your family with them, that
reduces the chance of them
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00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,740
actually, you know, feeling like
they're going to be, you know,
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00:42:01,740 --> 00:42:05,940
removed, right? So I think
proximity is so important, both
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00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:08,160
for the people that you're
trying to help and it's
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00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:09,240
important for
632
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,520
Jessie Cruickshank: yourself.
That's so good Daniel, and I
633
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,700
think if I would just, if I
could just add one thing to it,
634
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:17,520
because I know some people who
may not have kids in school or
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00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,780
or they live in places where
they're like, I don't actually
636
00:42:20,780 --> 00:42:26,900
know how to be proximal to
someone. I think about having
637
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:32,120
prayer meetings, because even
even if someone's listening to
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00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,360
this, this podcast five years in
the future, and some of that the
639
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:41,380
on the ground situation is has
changed, like praying for with
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00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:48,400
other people praying for whoever
is the outsider or the enemy in
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00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,780
your community or or that your
Lord, the Lord is moving on your
642
00:42:52,780 --> 00:42:56,440
heart for like, I think that we
can always do that in every
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00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,900
season, because this isn't, this
isn't a New situation. I mean,
644
00:43:00,900 --> 00:43:04,200
I'm, I'm, I'm the third
generation child of Irish
645
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,260
immigrants, and the reason why
they were in the West is because
646
00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:09,060
they weren't allowed to live
anywhere else, because
647
00:43:09,060 --> 00:43:09,300
Unknown: they were,
648
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:11,100
Jessie Cruickshank: they were
dirty, and all those things that
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00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,920
are being said about immigrants
right now, we're set about the
650
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,880
Irish and the Italians, right?
So like sea gangs in New York,
651
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,460
right? It's, it's a, it's a
thing that reoccurs so it never
652
00:43:22,460 --> 00:43:29,900
goes away, which means we can
always, I think, join with other
653
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:34,100
people and pray and say, God,
you know your kingdom come, Your
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00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:38,960
will be done in these, in lives,
in our community, as it is on
655
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,060
heaven. And I think that can
keep us that can keep us open
656
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:48,520
and receiving for however, the
Lord would lead, Daniel, if
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00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,820
people want to donate to World
Relief or get involved, is
658
00:43:51,820 --> 00:43:56,320
there, is there a place that
they can go? How can if, if
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00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,080
they're in one of those
situations where they can, they
660
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,340
are proximal to individuals and
they want to, they want to
661
00:44:02,340 --> 00:44:04,260
connect with the work that
you're doing. How would they
662
00:44:04,260 --> 00:44:04,800
find you?
663
00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:08,520
Daniel Yang: Yeah, absolutely.
Worldrelief.org worldrelief.org
664
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,380
you can find out sort of how to,
how to connect. If your church
665
00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:16,380
in particular wants to be a
place where you create belonging
666
00:44:16,380 --> 00:44:19,080
and welcoming for others, you
can also go to churches of
667
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,940
welcome.com which is also a
World Relief website, so
668
00:44:22,940 --> 00:44:27,380
worldly.org for our work. And
then if you want to be involved
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00:44:27,380 --> 00:44:28,820
and take action, churches of
welcome.com.
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00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,840
Jessie Cruickshank: Well, it's
so been, it's been so good to
671
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,800
have you. Thank you for joining
me on this conversation today. I
672
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,500
appreciate you. I appreciate
your heart. I appreciate your
673
00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:45,460
family. Yeah, just beautiful. So
thank you for joining us on the
674
00:44:45,460 --> 00:44:49,960
ordinary discipleship podcast.
You can hear this and other
675
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,440
podcasts wherever you get your
podcasts, and you can always
676
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:59,320
visit hoology.co that's W, H, O,
o, l, o, G, y.co, to find out
677
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,280
how to be. Be an ordinary
disciple maker, and have
678
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,500
communities that make disciples.
