Oriana Fox’s Multiple Os
"Satire and subversion with Katherine Araniello"
Podcast Transcript
[Theme music]
Oriana Fox (OF):
Hello, this is Oriana Fox. Thank you for tuning into Multiple Os, the spin-off podcast for my talk show The O Show. The O Show is a live performance piece that mines the conventions of daytime TV talk shows for all that they’re worth. It features artists and other experts who have little to no difficulty ’spilling the beans’ about their lives and opinions especially when they define norms and conventions. So if you’re interested in candid confessions non-conformity creativity and mental health you come to the right place!
[Theme music]
OF: Hello listeners, Oriana here. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Multiple Os. This one does something a little different from the previous ones. It’s an interview that I carried out long before I started the podcast, to be more precise it was recorded in summer of 2017, that should give you a sense of the context. It was done as research, so was not intended to be aired. Hopefully it’s listenable, in other words it wasn’t recorded with optimum sound quality in mind. We’ve done the best we can to make it listenable. Thank you to Stacy Harvey for assistance in this!
This episode is an interview with the artist, Katherine Araniello, who is unfortunately no longer with us. Sadly she passed away in 2019. Before I tell you a bit more about her, I just wanna give a head’s up that this episode includes profantities and references to adult topics – and if you know Katherine’s work that should come as no surprise – so if you’re listening in front of anyone who isn’t ready for that, consider wearing headphones.
It was important to me to find ways to disseminate this material. As I said, it’s the recording of Katherine Araniello who was an artist but she was also my friend and former boss. In fact, if it wasn’t for her I wouldn’t be living in the UK. She was instrumental in me getting my last work visa which led to my becoming a permanent resident, I digress. Anyway, she was an artist who made essential and challenging work engaging with agency, disability and the aesthetics of the body. Her work was politically fearless and infused with subversive humour. Importantly, under no circumstances would Katherine Araniello fall in line with what was expected of her. If she did, she did it in such a way that was so over the top, or so strange, that it became, in her terminology: a ‘headfuck’. Sadly, as I said, she passed away in February 2019, but she leaves behind a body of work which you can access via her youtube channel – see links in the show notes. Thank you so much to Katherine’s partner Tracey Jannaway and Katherine’s brother Alistair and mum Joan for giving their consent to share this material in this way.
I’ll start by having Katherine Araniello introduce herself, via a mash up of excerpts from her work, here she is… Enjoy!
[ding sound]
Katherine Araniello (KA): [from video blog 06, 2015] I’m going to talk about me, because I am someone who has a lot to say to you.
[Excerpt from film entitled ‘Follow me on my journey to die’, 2009, produced by 104 Films and the UK Film Council.]
[Orchestral superhero music fades in.]
KA voiceover: Art is life, my disability is my art, follow me on my journey to die.
[MUSIC, excerpt from “Nice Song”, 2017 by K Araniello]
KA: [Singing] Swifly moving on, I’m having such a nice day today, I’m going to paint my nails. Bedroom yoga is all the craze, I feel so amaze. Pink or red nail varnish, not sure which one to choose, but who cares, I’m going on a Caribbean cruise. Eating, drinking, laughing, lindy-hopping, everyone wants me to join in all the fun. I’m the life and soul of every party.
[Excerpt from “Sick Bitch Crips Pity Party”, 2013, with karaoke version of ‘It’s my party” by Lesley Gore.]
KA: [Singing] Come to the party, the pity party. It is so much fun.
[Excerpt from “Take me to your party” song, c. 1997 by Plastic Anorexic – the art duo made up of Katherine Araniello on vocals and visuals and Sean Donaghey on vocals and guitar.]
KA: [Singing] Please, take me, take me, take me, take me, take me, take me, take me to your party. I want to be there.
[Excerpt from music video Sick Bitch Blues, 2012]
KA: [Singing] I am a sick bitch. I got the sick bitch blues. I am sick as a dog. Oral doxycycline.
[Excerpt from Pity, 2013, performance documentation video, with vocals by Cipapella to the tune of Flying Lizard’s “Money”.]
KA: [Singing]The best things in life are free, pity does not grow on trees. I want your pity. Yes, that’s what I want, I want your pity.
[Excerpt from music video Lazy Baby by SickBitchCrips, 2014]
KA: [Singing]Tragedy, it’s a cunt. A venereal disease won’t leave me along. No no no no no no no no. Contagious, genetic defect, was born like this, born like this.
[Excerpt from Aaron Williamson and Katherine Araniello, aka The Disabled Avant-Garde’s video Amazing Art, 2009]
Voiceover: When Katherine was first born, everyone thought that she was normal until she showed no signs of crawling. After a few months she was diagnosed with a fatal, crippling disease called spinal muscular atrophy.
[Excerpt from music video Lazy Baby by SickBitchCrips, 2014]
KA: [Singing] Wouldn’t want it any other way. Tomorrow is another day. Wanna get under your skin, feel like you, smell like you, walk like you, talk like you, fuck like you.
[Excerpt from “If only I was normal” made with Laura Dee Milnes, 2016]
KA: I just wish my body was normal, so that I could do ordinary things like other people do.
Laura: Like what?
[Excerpt from music video Share the love II, 2017]
KA: [Singing] Porcupine vagina. Scrotum pancakes. Projectile turd balls. Everyday is the fuck off same. Mad is bad, ever so sad. Mother fucking beast. Turn up the heat.
[Excerpt from video blog 06, 2015]
KA: So I am someone who is exceptional, an overachiever, motivated and clever. But more importantly, I’m special, brave and I bring cheers of joy to people.
[ding sound]
OF: Hello again, so in this interview, I start out talking with Katherine about the possibility of her being a guest on a future episode of The O Show. Sadly, that didn’t come to pass, so again another reason why I felt it was important to broadcast this interview in some way. So, the first question I asked her was about her use personas – she and I had that in common as artists – but I said to her, if she were to be a guest on The O ShowI would want her to be herself, and this was Katherine’s response:
KA: I don’t know, I just think that, I think personally I am better at responding in a persona, as opposed to trying to justify and explain my work. I just feel that once I start explaining it, I feel I start becoming a bit preachy.
OF: Really?
KA: No, I do actually. I’m trying to... I don’t know, I come across as someone who is really hot on disability politics and I actually don’t think I am. I’m just sort of an artist that responds to what’s going on around me. When you worked for me I was homing in on assisted suicide. Assisted suicide was a new thing to me, but I have to be honest, I’m bored with it.
OF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KA: So now I’m more into awkwardness, playing the victim. And also, you see, even now I feel the way I’m talking even now is really dreary and boring.
OF: Oh, don’t worry about it.
KA: So what I do is, I tend to, for example, the video blogs, vlogs that you mentioned, they are done in a really… because I had a look at other video vlogs and I just noticed how other people do them. One is they’re real and they’re really wanting you to either buy something, because they might be selling makeup or something, or they just want to talk about their lives. And they want people to subscribe and to engage and to follow them. Then I also watched blogs by this disabled guy who sees himself as an inspirational, motivational individual. So he’s talking about disability. So I thought right, I’m going to reverse everything here. I thought I’m gonna do a blog that is the dullest, dreariest thing, that actually doesn’t tell people about anything. It’s a performance to camera, but it’s so deadpan and so absolutely not saying anything about anything. And also homing in on all those and it doesn’t even mention disability. But if it does, it just sort of goes on about it. It’s more exciting to watch paint dry than to watch my vlog. But it was all considered, that was what I really wanted to do.
[ding sound]
OF: Just to give another taste of what Katherine is describing here, here’s another excerpt from one of her riveting vlogs.
KA: Every day I do amazing things. For example, today I had a cup of tea. I got up. I came downstairs. I checked my emails and I looked at my animals and I said hello to them. And after that, some post came and it wasn’t for me, it was for somebody else. And so after that, I went back to the computer and continued to check my emails.
OF: And now back to the interview.
[ding sound]
KA: And I really like doing because it sort of suits. I wanted it to be flat. I wanted it to be not animated at all. And so I started doing the vlogs a while ago. I sort of stopped doing them at the moment, but I enjoy doing them. Also, facebook for me, that is really good at getting inspiration for work. So many people use it as a personal diary. They tell people what hospital they’re in, they’re about to be taken to A&E. All this stuff I have immediate access to and I make work from it. I turn the dull into something even I find interesting. It’s like turning it around and it covers so many things. I wouldn’t know where to start. It’s like my website, I’ve been working on it a bit lately and it’s like in a way creating a, I don’t try to explain anything on it. It might come across as quite flippant. There’s stuff on it like I’ve put little paragraphs under the videos that don’t tell anybody anything.
OF: I didn’t notice that, I guess I just looked at the stuff rather than the descriptions. So is that part of the persona thing?
KA: So when I went to a university recently, I was invited as a visiting lecture, I think they call it. And I went into the theatre space and gave a talk and the way I did it, I put on a persona. I said, Hi, yeah thank you for inviting me today, it was quite a struggle to get here and it’s amazing that I got here anyhow because. So I play the victim. I play this person who is really lucky to be alive and I home in on all the sort of stereotypical imagery that one might have on disability and I integrate my work to it. So then, for example, I say part of one of the things I like doing, one of my hobbies is that I like to draw, and I did a little animated drawing recently and then I show them the Sick bitch crips animation.
OF: But what happens, do people believe the character? That happens with me with my O Show character, people just believe the character and they think that’s me.
KA: It confuses them.
OF: Exactly, so do people just buy that and then they don’t get the critique?
KA: Some people get it and some people don’t. I just think if they want to learn about it they can go on to my website and read my biog.
OF: You make them work for it.
KA: Absolutely. People don’t listen if you try to lecture. I believe that if you create humour and people may or may not engage in. Because I guess if you talk to me and I give off the persona as a victim, people will believe it. It can be quite amusing. It is a challenge and it’s also again in opposition to how I really feel. But I sort of like reverse it because again I did some research...
OF: Right because you don’t want to be preaching at them. Yeah.
KA: I looked at some disabled motivational speakers, which is quite hot in America. And it’s just awful because these people believe that they are special and they believe they are there to motivate, stimulate and inspire and all that shit. I’ve reversed it, so I go to uninspire; I do not motivate and I am not trying to make people laugh or anything. Of course, naturally, how I do it, does create a reaction.
OF: What reaction is that?
KA: Some people get it and some people get confused.
OF: Yeah. [Laughs]
KA: Some of them got the subversion. Some of them don’t. I think the stereotypical response unfortunately is that it gets them going down memory lane and they think about their mother who’s got Parkinson’s and their grandmother who is in a wheelchair. That’s a given if you’re a disabled person and people see you it creates memories for individuals because they try to make connections. If they haven’t met a disabled person or had a close interaction and all they know is the media bullshit that pumps out at them all the time, of course, they are in disarray. So I just help to push that disarray even further. [pause]
[…] Anyway, What did you want me to talk about?
OF: [Laughs] I wanted you to talk about how you dress and how you do your hair?
KA: Actually, it’s just my style.
OF: But you have style, I don’t have any style.
KA: You do, you choose to dress like that. No, because I think I’ve always been conscious of how the fashion industry and first of all they create gender-specific clothing. And so you must dress like this, this is for girls and this is for boys. That whole sort of commodify thing I’ve always been consciously not ever going to engage with that or comply with it. It’s about compliance. So, you know, I prefer men’s perfume to women’s perfume because women’s perfume is very sweet. It’s nothing to do with me... it’s in my consciousness, I just, I will not be dictated to as to how I should dress or what I should wear, or the fact that my hair is red and sticking up at the age of 51. It’s probably inappropriate to someone of my age. I don’t give a shit because I can’t bear to be, I always wear male shirts not because I’m trying to say I’m neither male or female, but because of my scoliosis actually, because male shirts are bigger. And I do prefer the design. So it’s for those probably disinteresting reasons. But I am not going out there sort of asking people to look at me in a particular way because I was very self-conscious from a young age because people would stare at me. But I got over it. So now I just don’t, I’m oblivious. Of course, I’m aware of it but it doesn’t touch or destabilise me. Also, I think there’s hypocrisy going on if I’m doing things that are say ‘playing the victim’, but I look as I do, I don’t look like a victim and that’s a bit of a mind-fuck as well, I think for the spectator. I think I like sort of rearranging everything so that there’s never any clear definitive conclusion or, I don’t know.
OF: You call attention to your appearance because people are going to stare anyway, you know. They’re looking at me because of my hair not because of my...
KA: You see when I was on holiday, some people did say to me...they made the statement. This is the thing, it’s like the assumption is that if you look outrageous or you look different, like for example my hair, that it’s something you’re doing purposefully, or it’s that you’re trying to say something, but what if you’re not? Where does it sit?
OF: [laughs] I don’t know. Yeah, so you think you’re doing it out of habit now?
KA: Not out of habit. I’m doing it because it’s part of my identity. It’s how it is. It’s like if I said to you, why do you dress the way you do? What would you say about that?
OF: Oh, I can say something about it. I think for me it’s wanting to be invisible and not draw attention to myself.
KA: I think that I am invisible irrespective, whether my hair is like this or not. But it is nice, I mean I’m not doing it to get public attention, I think that’s important to... I really am not. Years ago when I was in my 20s, there was a documentary being made about disability and fashion and I was asked and it took me by surprise, what are they talking about? I don’t even think about fashion. I guess I’m against it because I won’t conform to how society expects us to look. So yeah as a disabled person I’m expected to look a bit dowdy, maybe my hair is unusually... It is a style and an identity, I’m just, I’m comfortable with the way I look. That’s a bit boring.
OF: That’s not boring at all. I think not a lot of people feel that way, especially women. There are very few women who feel comfortable with how they look.
KA: They don’t? I gave up on that years ago because it’s all fucked up anyway. If I start worrying about that, I’d think my nose is a bit big. Because of my scoliosis, my teeth don’t meet when I close my mouth. Do you know what I mean? What’s the point? Maybe I think I do use all those things to my advantage. So in the work I’ve started to home in on certain things, playing the victim. But yeah, I am conscious of how society sees someone like me. They would, they could see somebody who had severe mental health [problems] and if they had a choice they’d probably still rather be the person who had all four limbs working. But you know, that’s just how our society is. So yeah I am consciously aware, but I don’t wear my hair to make a statement, it’s evolved. It’s just how I like it. It’s a bit like ORLAN. Have you seen ORLAN’s hair?
OF: Yes.
KA: Have you seen Rocio Boliver? I mean look at her!
OF: Yeah.
KA: Maybe what it is that maybe we are like not giving a shit about what society’s expectations and therefore we just take our. You have to be strong in your personality to do that. I know Rocio doesn’t and she’s amazing and it’s people like that I find inspirational, if I can use that term. It’s just a strong identity I think and it isn’t trying to... I’m not concerned about being looked at because of my hair. If someone says, your hair looks great, I like that. Some people shy away from compliments, or it makes them feel awkward or whatever. Don’t know if that’s useful?
OF: Yes, that’s really great.
KA: Are you telling the truth Oriana?
OF: No, I’m serious! [laughs] No, it is all really great. It fits in with my theories very well. [Laughs]
KA: Really? So you don’t have to rewrite.
OF: I don’t have to rewrite my theories, yeah, so that’s good. So, I have two questions. One is like going to back to what you said earlier about having got over being self-conscious. Why did you get over that or what led you to change?
KA: When I was a child I was very conscious of how people used to stare at me and it made me feel very awkward and really self-conscious, and also to the point where I couldn’t even talk with normal children. I found it really hard mentally to interact. And then I was actually placed in special schools, which was fine. But when I came out and you remember when I first went to Goldsmiths, I felt very self-conscious. I had a terrible time trying to communicate to the students because I felt different. You were there when I was there and I was a very different person to how I am now. But it’s a process, isn’t it?
OF: Yeah.
KA: It’s a process and I’m not saying I’ve always been confident. It’s more the last few years that I just don’t care anymore. So the question was when did it start to change?
OF: Yeah, well I mean also your style of dressing and how you do your hair, when did you start doing your hair that way and why?
KA: I started doing it years ago. Everyone was starting to peroxide their hair and I thought I really want to do that.
OF: When was this?
KA: This would have been when I was 18 or 19. And it seemed that everyone that looked cool had peroxide hair. So I just thought, I want to do that. So I did it, but then it just became too cool, everyone was doing it, so I had to change it. I didn’t want to be part of that clan, so I started dying it red and it took me a while to find the right shade, more orange. That’s, so again, it was a conscious, it was, yeah I guess it was a step from being quite self-conscious to wanting to look cool.
OF: Wanting to look cool.
KA: Exactly. At quite a young age.
OF: Yeah, everybody wants to fit in then.
KA: Exactly, and I just kept it up. I would be very depressed if my hair, I can’t imagine my hair being the colour it is, the natural colour, I really wouldn’t like it. If it was back to its normal colour, I would feel uncomfortable because it wouldn’t be vivacious. It’s like the reversal, if it was back to its normal colour, I would feel uncomfortable, very uncomfortable.
OF: It wouldn’t be you.
KA: I don’t really like it when I see other people with red hair.
OF: [Laughs] I also wanted to ask you about the whole I wouldn’t want to be in the mainstream... is performance art really making change?
KA: Probably not. No seriously, I think for a disabled person it’s more of a challenge actually. I think being a disabled person or anything counter to the norm is really popular. For me, a lot of my work always used to happen inside the ghetto, like disability festivals or opportunities for disabled people. And actually now I’ve managed to break past that, so I do feel I’m taking disability representation to a new audience. Yes, it’s an art audience but they won’t be so familiar with disability context. So I think people like [James Leadbitter] the Vacuum Cleaner, performance artists [who makes work about] mental health; Martin O’Brien with CF [cystic fibrosis], has a PhD; and Daniel Oliver, dyspraxia. So it’s like a new group of live artists who haven’t necessarily lived the same disability experience as I have, however they’re still bringing another type of disability to the forefront of performance art. And I think that’s really, it’s a good thing. It opens it up and even though they’re experience is different to mine, it's still about disability. So I guess I’ve found a niche where I can present work that does take it to an extreme. But yeah, I think for me it would be very, I’ve chosen to maybe, it’s very hard to present work. It’s like, for example, I don’t really show my brother my work because he just wouldn’t get it. It’s not because he’s stupid, but he just wouldn’t, he wouldn’t get it. As artists surely we just want to push ourselves and push like-minded people. Why should we be the disciples of the world? Who are we to? Ultimately, everybody is invited.
OF: But at the same time, if you don’t communicate outside of that bubble, then you’re limited in how much change.
KA: But if you put it on social media then you are.
OF: No, only your contacts and like-minded people see it. Nobody talks to anyone who doesn’t agree with them already.
KA: Not if you make it public.
OF: It’s still a bubble. Everyone was shocked by Brexit and Trump being elected because nobody talks to anyone who doesn’t agree with them already. That’s the problem.
KA: But it’s exasperating talking to people who don’t agree with you.
OF: [Laughs] I know.
KA: It’s really really stressful. I guess I choose to be around people who are going to elevate the way I think, not sort of suppress me. I already live in a situation in which society oppresses anyone who is different. Of course, I’m oppressed. So maybe, but what is the critique? We are not taking it to where it needs taking?
OF: Yeah, because we’re staying in our own bubble we’re not affecting change like the way we could.
KA: For me personally, my own survival in a world that is so fucking fucked up, is just to keep pushing myself and subverting everything. I think artists do take their artwork into the public. So for example at Buzzcut in Glasgow, there were lots of interventions going on within the public domain. But you can’t make people who are not interested look at it. How do you do that? How do you do it?
OF: I don’t know.
KA: But with DAG [Disabled Avant-garde] we have created fake stalls and we did that thing years ago at that university we got them to sign that...
OF: Yeah, yeah. We do do public interventions and things like that.
KA: Yeah.
[ding sound]
OF: Just to clue you in, DAG stands for Disabled Avant-garde, which was a duo that Katherine was part of with the artist Aaron Williamson. The two of them made a lot of work together over the years, one of which was a public intervention – the piece was called Assisted Passage (2007) – at Birkbeck University, where Katherine dressed in really dowdy clothes, nothing like she dresses in real life, hiding her bright red hair under a woollen hat. She played up her look to be as pathetic and victim-like as possible. And Aaron stood next to her with a megaphone and screamed out…
[Audio clip from performance documentation]
Aaron Williamson (AW): What do we want? Assisted passage! When do we want it? Now!
KA: [less emphatically and amplified by a mic] Now. Assisted passage now.
AW: What’s your position? Sign our petition! Katherine wants an airline ticket to Zurich, in Sweden!
[End of audio clip]
OF: Please rest assured that Aaron Williamson does know Zurich is in Switzerland, not Sweden. But it was all part of the joke, a joke that very few people in the public that day seemed to get because 37 people signed the petition against the budget airlines who were supposedly blocking her passage to visit the Dignitas clinic in Zurich. Yeah, so 37 people signed the petition and not one of them asked or questioned why it was or whether or not Katherine wanted to end her life, which of course in reality she did not want to do. So that was the premise. Let’s get back to the interview.
[ding sound]
KA: Yeah, you were talking about the way I look earlier. Maybe, perhaps the way I look does change, does sort of challenge people’s perceptions – the public who don’t know who I am or what I do, it will slightly... It’s something that doesn’t quite fit into the stereotype of how they imagine a disabled person looks possibly. So, yeah I think that I am doing my bit for society...[laughs] to try to, I don’t know.
OF: Is it alright if we switch gears here and talk about the work you did around the topic of assisted suicide?
KA: It was about highlighting how ridiculous it was and how absurd it was and this sort of ignorance and disbelief around believing that independence only comes from being able to physically do everything yourself, which of course is bullshit. None of us are. It’s ridiculous, none of us do everything ourselves. I mean, you don’t personally destroy everything that’s in your recycle bin, you don’t personally bring it down to sort of powder or dust, or turn it into something that we reuse again. So we all, it’s a whole chain. We all are dependent on others for everything. But obviously, depending on your situation in life, it will be higher. So for example, somebody who has mental health issues, their dependency is going to be completely psychological support. I mean people always have this, often it’s easy to say.. because I recently went on holiday and there was somebody on there who was also disabled and he was somebody that had a really good job and had loads of money and he was the co-owner of BHS, which went into liquidation and shut down a good few years ago. However, he was also somebody who became disabled 20 years ago. I heard this not from him directly, but second-hand through my personal assistant (PA), one of my PAs who I work with as an artist, collaborate with sometimes. This guy that become disabled, and was able to ride around on a scooter and physically eat without assistance, etc. etc., you know, his comment to my PA, artist PA, was “I don’t know how she does it, she is so brave”. And that was just [in response to] me eating and drinking and just doing normal things that you do on a holiday. It wasn’t be doing anything elaborate, because I can’t. That was his narrative for me. Also, other people on the trip were saying to my PAs “Oh she’s, I’m so inspired by her”. All I was doing was going around like everybody else, ramming food down my face and going down to the bar and ordering a few drinks, I was not doing anything outrageous. Ok, I have orange hair that sticks up and I need assistance with everything I do, even to get around the boat. And that’s the commentary that follows me. It’s not vindictive commentary, but it’s extremely, excruciatingly patronising. And then one of my PAs told me that one of the other passengers said to her, you really need to make sure she’s covered up because she’s very sunburnt, but not in my earshot. So I was getting all this sort of...
OF: Right, like you’re a child.
KA: Or someone that can’t look after herself. What I’m saying is that it sort of follows me, but I just see it as material, that will somehow, not necessarily directly, possibly, but will just come out in the work. So it’s that narrative that follows me around.
OF: Yeah.
KA: I think, going back to assisted suicide, I think I put myself in the position of I was somebody who wanted to end my life, which I absolutely didn’t. So it’s was parodying what was happening at the time.
OF: Or the perception that people might have of you. But, so what was it that first led you to do it? What was the inspiration or the impetus behind the first time you addressed that topic?
KA: Well, it was really being quite alarmed as to what was happening in the media and this awareness that even such a thing existed. Because for years and still now disabled people fought for equal rights and to have independence and be able to be in control over their lives, etc. etc. Those that were politicised were very much from a social model angle rather than the medical model. Suddenly things everything had become topsy turvy and everything was in disarray because I was witnessing disabled people themselves also, that were political, fighting for the right to end their life and it made absolutely no sense to me. There also was a disparity between any levels of equality because they were fighting for disabled and ‘terminally ill’ people to be able to do this. They weren’t saying actually anybody who wants to end their lives, there should be clinics readily available for people to end their lives. So it was very much targeted at disabled and terminally ill people.
OF: Yeah.
KA: So that’s what I felt was problematic. And watching...
OF: Right, yeah, so it’s counter to the argument of equality.
KA: Exactly. There’s a complete imbalance. And then watching so-called victims. The paparazzi were, it’s like they became sort of like thirsty to watch someone end their life and till eventually, they did. You know, it has been documented right to the point where somebody has gone to Dignitas where it is legal to a clinic to end their life. And what was really...
OF: They made a documentary and it was on TV, I remember that.
KA: Yeah, the BBC documentary. I think what was really appalling about it from the very beginning for me was that it was like watching a mirror reflection of someone saying “well, I won’t be able to comb my hair anymore and I won’t be able to wash my face” and I just thought, well I can’t do that anyway. Why is it so… Also, the ignorance about people not having a clue – or it just opened up so many things, Oriana – people are unable to digest the difference between… people still, I think still, the public that don’t meet or know disabled people or have someone disabled in their lives, do not understand the concept of being independent through assistance. Because what the media regurgitates all the time are documentaries that home on people’s lives where they have community nurses coming in and doing the bare basics. So to the general people, that’s how they see disabled people living their lives. So it’s no wonder that anyone that becomes disabled or who is diagnosed with a terminal illness, the majority of those people are in so much fear that they will want to terminate their lives prematurely.
OF: Yeah, because there is so much ignorance around you know how to live independently...
KA: People don’t know that actually, people don’t realise that being – I’m not saying everybody, but I think there’s still a huge amount of ignorance around... People don’t believe that somebody who is disabled, say the way I am – I need assistance in everything, everything. So if I say to somebody, like for example, I saw my consultant last year, I see him every year and he said, What are you doing at Christmas? And I said I’m cooking dinner. And again he, and I get on with him really well, but just the fact that I say that as an ordinary normal thing, quite normal thing. You know, to me that is, and when I say I’m cooking the dinner, I’m cooking the dinner. Ok, I’m doing it through assistants, but I am directing them, telling them exactly which pan to use, etc., etc., and what seasoning to use blah blah, but invariably when people come over they will doubt that I cooked and will ask who helped me. They believe that it wasn’t actually my cooking. Even though that might sound quite basic, but it forms the template to the work I make, I would imagine, it has to. If you’re always, if people, if society doubts your abilities from the moment you’re born. So in my case, because I’ve never experienced being able-bodied, but my mind is able-bodied. So everything I do, I don’t expect, it’s just a given. When I say I’m cooking dinner, I’m cooking, how I’m doing it is nobody’s business. But the fact is people can’t digest it because they can see that I physically can’t move. I don’t know how helpful this is?
OF: Yeah, no, it’s good.
KA: I think that is again part of many catalysts for my work.
OF: But I guess that’s the thing, to be devil’s advocate…
KA: So do it.
OF: I think the reason why people were advocating for disabled people and terminally ill people to have the right to end their life is because they physically can’t do it themselves, whereas able-bodied people can...because I thought maybe their argument could be, I don’t want to ethically implicate whoever is going to assist me. That is the argument. And to be equal they need different rights, you know, they need different treatment. You know what I mean? So I think that’s the argument behind...
KA: I get it, but I think the argument is, again it’s the generic assumption that disabled people need help in absolutely everything.
OF: Yeah.
KA: So I’m just saying this assumption that...it is a huge, the arguments that go for and against are really powerful arguments. You know, I’m not coming from that perspective and to be honest, I don’t really, I just feel that the whole… it’s become so... it is a dangerous thing to happen should it happens. These questions of mortality and life are in the news the whole time. For example the baby that recently they turned the machine off. It's like, I don’t want to get directly involved really in those conversations because it’s become so much of it and so many people chipping in that don’t really know much about anything, that’s it’s become not a subject that I wanna particularly make work on anymore because I feel that I’ve exhausted it. I don’t want my work to be seen as somebody who is trying to stop or support it. It’s just come to an end for me personally because I just feel that people are individuals and groups of people are so strong-headed in their beliefs and it is impossible to change and I wasn’t trying to change anybody. All I was trying to do was show the disparity and the absurdity of it in the relation to not being able to physically assist one’s self, without the assistance through delegating somebody else who is paid to assist you. That was my concern.
OF: So, ok, so you talked about what started it off, but I feel like for you, in a way its less about the ethical debate around suicide as much as it is about how people are going to perceive you on the basis of the fact that that is the predominant form of representation of someone like you. Right? Is that correct?
KA: That’s quite good. I wouldn’t say me, but I would say anyone that sits outside of the norm.
OF: That that is not a life worth living.
KA: They see anyone who needs assistance in eating or moving or... It’s the viewpoint that is unfortunately is quite a generic viewpoint that affects all of us and individually. So the ethical questions around it will just go on forever. So I’m not really wanting to be engaged with that to how I was because I feel I’m useless at arguments. Somebody can say, well what about? I can argue but I don’t wanna be...
OF: Yeah, so it’s not about saying… it’s not preachy in that way, it’s more like...
KA: It’s about, it’s basically crushing equality. It’s literally bashing it to pieces. It has a real detrimental effect on our society.
OF: Right. It’s basically saying… Yeah, it’s basically, sort of eugenics-like argument, that life’s not worth living, why should we support that life?
KA: Yeah, totally. And it’s also denial, it’s denying the fact that a high percentage of, everybody is now living till they’re older and everybody is going to need care and support at some point.
OF: Yeah, I know and society is so in denial of that.
KA: They start rejecting it. It’s like hiding it under the carpet.
OF: And that’s how most people get when they’re older, they just want to deny that anything is wrong.
KA: My parents are fine examples of that. They will not accept assistance because their belief that the minute they start accepting help, they lose their independence. So here’s me as their daughter, and I can’t influence them in any way.
OF: Right.
KA: Oh it’s different for you, you’ve always, you know. I can’t influence them.
OF: Yeah.
KA: This is, so I guess that’s my argument, if I have one, which I do. It’s just this sort of perspective on anything that doesn’t fit within a very narrow, well I’ve already said all this to you before…
OF: No, it’s fine.
KA: ...anything that doesn’t fit within the very narrow confines of what is seen to be the norm. That construct is so fucking narrow, it pretty much eliminates all of us. But everybody is in denial and can’t see the transparency of it. So people believe that they fit within the norm, but actually nobody fits within the norm...
OF: Yeah.
KA: ...because there’s no such thing as the norm.
OF: Yeah. So you were responding to the stories in the media about assisted suicide and you…
KA: Well, I have done, but I’m sort of bored with it now.
OF: I know, but I want to sort of tease out a bit more about the work and what were the strategies you were using to respond to them?
KA: I used lots of strategies. So one was often using myself as the victim like the video vlog was the first thing I did and I put it out there on youtube and I was bombarded with comments from religious people trying to stop me from wanting to end my life. And people were really believing it was what I wanted to do.
OF: No one, people not getting the joke.
KA: No, apart from maybe a couple of academics and friends. But most people really believed it. So for me that was sort of successful because it meant that I played the role very well. [Laughs]
OF: Right.
KA: It was interesting the amount of people that… Actually, hold on a minute, actually people who were trying to stop me. They weren’t supporting it.
OF: Yeah.
KA: But the way they were trying to stop me was you know in a really condescending way. So they were sort of understanding how I felt, but at the same time trying to say, but you know, it’s ok. So people were like very empathetic towards what I was trying to do.
OF: Yeah, so it’s really about like, sort of, I mean I think there’s a similarity between that and the playing the victim. I mean there’s a relationship because in a way, someone who is considering assisted suicide is seeing themselves as a victim and is automatically playing up to that sort of pathetic, my life is so horrible.
KA: Exactly.
OF: You know, it’s really related isn’t it? The...
KA: Crowd-funding?
OF: The website, yeah the crowd-funding thing. Because it’s playing on people’s perception of you, which you don’t agree with, right? Which is very much what the assisted suicide pieces are. I know you’re looking at me and thinking “I might as well kill myself”, so I’m going to play up to that idea in your minds and I’m going to make fun of you for thinking that. This is like even more, it’s like...
KA: It’s taking it to another extreme.
OF: Yeah, because it’s like I’m going to take your money. [laughs]
KA: Well I have. Nearly four grand of it.
OF: I’m going to capitalise on your pity. It’s a similar, darkly humorous… yeah.
KA: That wasn’t how I construed it.
OF: It wasn’t? Ok.
KA: But I think that’s a really good way of putting it.
OF: How did you construe it? Tell me how you saw it, if it wasn’t like that.
KA: It’s really interesting to hear that, butI think for me it was more like a personal thing because for me I can’t stand the way, again, it’s like looking at Youtube and all these terrible images of people with disabilities and in particular people with my disability, and tear-jerking stuff, you know, trying to raise money to find cures and, or them doing nothing extraordinary but it becoming so inspiring and so amazing. And again it’s sort of this whole, it doesn’t, it’s not helpful. So, for me it was about first we have to have an awareness of how people really see you, really see you and then start from that point.
OF: Os, so, oh, alright, so how did you go about doing that?
KA: Obviously, crowd-funding has become quite trendy – everybody’s at it. And lots of disabled people are doing it as well. One person I know is fundraising, trying to get a private prosthetic leg for her sister. Everybody’s doing it. I find the whole, I find again the mentality used to try to get money, and for people, it’s like as you say, it’s very much pity based. The template is pity. You engaging with that person and not seeing them as equal or as a strong individual, but seeing them as somebody that needs your help. And your help will be in the form of donations that will then make you feel better.
OF: Right.
KA: As an artist I knew that some people would have to be able see through the transparency of the, and actually support it as an art piece. But for the sake of this crowd-funding, it has to be done in the way that I’ve set it up, i.e. really drawing on pity. But in reality, I think most people that funded it are really just the art community.
OF: Oh, really?
KA: So I don’t know if that’s a success or not. [Laughs]. I’m not go start scrutinising it. This crowd-funding was to genuinely make enough money to get a professionally shot video that would...
OF: That’s the idea, but I thought it was a joke.
KA: No, that’s for real.
OF: Oh, ok.
KA: Oh yeah. That will simulate a music video that could be real, that is genuine in its content.
OF: Ok.
KA: And from that it was to put it out there and see what reaction it generated.
OF: And then how are you going to get it distributed?
KA: That’s the question. The thing it’s a real, it’s a bit of a challenge here because how far do I really want to take it? Do I really want to be invited to go onto one of those morning programmes? Because they always have a disabled person on there. And, you know, I don’t know if I’m brave enough to take it to that extent where would really being saying this is how I feel. But part of me thinks, actually...
OF: So, the song that you’ve written, is it what you actually think and feel?
KA: No, absolutely not, it’s a joke.
OF: So it’s sarcastic.
KA: It’s really dire and it’s really shit. I got a composer to do all the...
OF: So it is a joke?
KA: It’s a parody of what already exists…
OF: Ok.
KA:In America and here as well there are motivational speakers, some of whom are disabled. And a trigger point for this was I saw this guy and he is an evangelist as well as a disabled person with no legs or arms and he goes around preaching all over the world. He basically says, look at me I’m disabled, you can do anything I can, look at me.
[ding sound]
OF: Katherine was an avid collector of the kinds of representation that she was critical of. So here’s a clip from her files of the evangelist preacher that she just mentioned, that’s Nick Vujicic, when he appeared on Oprah. It gives you a clearer sense of exactly what she was responding to:
[Audio clip]
Nick Vujicic: Being born without arms and legs, it’s all about choice. You asked me what it was, I had parents who were my heroes. They told me, you can either be angry about what you don’t have or be thankful for what you do have. Do your best and god will do the rest. [Audience member says ‘Yes’, applause and whoops] Then consciousness, because I gave my life to the lord Jesus Christ... [Audience member says ‘Hallelujah!’] and the renewing of my mind… [Audience member says ‘Wow!’] I knew that I could be unstoppable. [louder applause]
[ding sound]
KA: And he did a music video, which was absolutely horrendous. So I thought right, I’m gonna do a music video as well that is a complete, me being this inspirational character in it.
[ding sound]
OF: And here’s a short excerpt from that song…
[Sentimental guitar music fades in]
KA: [Singing] Everywhere I go, I see you smile. Seeing me brings tears to your eyes. I know I make you feel so sad and that’s because I look so bad. Helpless. Time is running out, no mercy for me. Searching for a cure is all I have. Wheelchair-bound, in my chair. Look at me, withering and shriveling away.
[Music fades out]
[ding sound]
KA: The crazy thing is that these things exist for real. So one could say, I’m gonna do something for real, but I’m not, it isn’t real. But it might well come across as real, that’s the whole fucking idea, it could be and it has to come across as real. Otherwise, people will just say, oh. It has to come across as real.
OF: You use yourself in a lot of your work and you do a lot of video vlogs, but it’s never, like, there’s always some specific tactic you’re taking that you’ve decided on in advance. Right? You’re never just like presenting yourself as you feel yourself to be, like in an earnest, you know, truthful way.
KA: True, true, that is true.
OF: Would that ever appeal to you to do that?
KA: Not at all.
OF: Why not?
KA: Because…
OF: It’s too preachy, you’d end up being preachy.
KA: For me personally, it’s far more interesting to present whatever it is I do within a persona. Oh so, I...I, and again, I don’t believe I am, I don’t want, I’m not a guru on disability, or, you know. I’ve created my own agenda and my own discourse and my own way of thinking. And ok, I’ve picked up bits and pieces along the way just by living.
OF: Right.
KA: And so, I feel the only way to, it’s about reinventing the whole time and representation but in a different way. For example, you see a lot of disabled vloggers who are seeing themselves as the spokespeople for disability or as a role model, a positive role model. And again it’s so shit and so bad that I feel compelled to come along and alter the reading so that people don’t quite know how to read it.
OF: Yeah.
KA: And again, I think by being in it, it changes people’s perspective. I see a lot of disabled people vlogging and they’re just talking about their lives, oh, I’ve got this new gadget. I’m not saying it’s wrong to do it, but it does fulfill a mainstream stereotype. So I go against those stereotypes. It’s natural, I just can’t help myself; it’s just a natural thing for me to do.
OF: But have you ever seen a representation of disability that you actually thought was good?
KA: Yes, Aaron Williamson.
OF: Ok [laughs]. But also it's like can it be ever be represented as a non-issue?
KA: These are all the questions that one asks.
OF: It’s like the phenomenon of colour-blind casting, where you cast people regardless of their race because you think they’re right for the role, you know, or sex-blind casting.
KA: They do that at the National Theatre quite a lot.
OF: Oh yeah.
KA: Again, I think it’s, I think it works.
OF: Do they really do disability-blind casting?
KA: I think they’ve started to.
OF: Ok. It’s representation then but it’s not about disability, it’s just about, it’s just...
KA: There was one piece where, I saw a piece with someone that I know, a facebook friend, and she was in a National Theatre production and it was nothing to do with disability and she was just there. So she’s a restricted growth person and so there were things that had to be done for her to be able to get onto the table and move around, blah, blah, blah. And they integrated her amazingly well, and it wasn’t anything to do with disability. And the focus wasn’t on her, she was part of the group dynamics.
OF: Ok. So there you go, there are some. Yeah, but you don’t think you can contribute in that way of like?
KA: Well that’s mainstream, isn’t it?
OF: Yeah.
KA: It’s learning a script and also you’re not in control of it. Somebody else has written the script, somebody else is directing you. With being an artist, you’re very much...
OF: You’ve got all the control.
KA: Totally. And you know, I don’t even begin to, to try to explain to people where I’m at and the way I think, that would probably take forever. So that’s why it makes more sense to just if I collaborate with somebody then sure I will step down and listen to what their idea is and go along with it and it might not be necessarily a disability agenda, and I’m ok with that. But if it’s my own work, it’s important to, I have so much acute awareness of so many things and I guess it all forms a part of the work, but without my necessarily explaining it, it’s just there. It exists. It’s like you coming from NY, and your identity, you might not expose it, but it’s there. Do you know what I mean?
OF: Yeah. So that’s great.
KA: Is that helpful?
OF: Yeah, super helpful.
[ding sound]
OF: Thanks for listening to that interview with Katherine Araniello. I hope that it fuels your interest in her work and that you will go on to discover more on her youtube channel. Again, the link is in the show notes. If you had trouble making out anything that we were saying, there is a transcript available on my website or on my website. There’s a link to it in the show notes.
[Music: Next time on Multiple Os]
OF: Next time on Multiple Os will be the first of many interviews of the second season of this very podcast. It will be all of the best bits of my Instagram residency at Mimosa House, London, which is a gallery in London that gave me a residency for which I carried out 20 interviews with artists based in London, New York and Los Angeles. So, I will be airing them via the podcast because some of you may not be on Instagram. And/or, some of you may have the kind of attention span that I have when I’m on Instagram, which is that you’re just looking at the feed and the latest thing and you’re not searching through the back catalogue of the people you follow to watch hour-long videos. That’s just not what that platform leads to. So I’m hoping that these interviews can have a new life via the podcast in Season two while I work on brand new interviews for Season three. Something to look forward to!
[‘Next time’ music fades up and out. Themesong plays]
OF: Thank you so much for listening. If you’re enjoying the series, please support me via patreon.com/orianafox and even if you don’t, I’ll go on unconditionally accepting myself, my life and other people because we’re all just fallible human beings!
[Themesong fades up and out]
© K Araniello and Oriana Fox 2017, All Rights Reserved.
"Satire and subversion with Katherine Araniello"
Podcast Transcript
[Theme music]
Oriana Fox (OF):
Hello, this is Oriana Fox. Thank you for tuning into Multiple Os, the spin-off podcast for my talk show The O Show. The O Show is a live performance piece that mines the conventions of daytime TV talk shows for all that they’re worth. It features artists and other experts who have little to no difficulty ’spilling the beans’ about their lives and opinions especially when they define norms and conventions. So if you’re interested in candid confessions non-conformity creativity and mental health you come to the right place!
[Theme music]
OF: Hello listeners, Oriana here. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Multiple Os. This one does something a little different from the previous ones. It’s an interview that I carried out long before I started the podcast, to be more precise it was recorded in summer of 2017, that should give you a sense of the context. It was done as research, so was not intended to be aired. Hopefully it’s listenable, in other words it wasn’t recorded with optimum sound quality in mind. We’ve done the best we can to make it listenable. Thank you to Stacy Harvey for assistance in this!
This episode is an interview with the artist, Katherine Araniello, who is unfortunately no longer with us. Sadly she passed away in 2019. Before I tell you a bit more about her, I just wanna give a head’s up that this episode includes profantities and references to adult topics – and if you know Katherine’s work that should come as no surprise – so if you’re listening in front of anyone who isn’t ready for that, consider wearing headphones.
It was important to me to find ways to disseminate this material. As I said, it’s the recording of Katherine Araniello who was an artist but she was also my friend and former boss. In fact, if it wasn’t for her I wouldn’t be living in the UK. She was instrumental in me getting my last work visa which led to my becoming a permanent resident, I digress. Anyway, she was an artist who made essential and challenging work engaging with agency, disability and the aesthetics of the body. Her work was politically fearless and infused with subversive humour. Importantly, under no circumstances would Katherine Araniello fall in line with what was expected of her. If she did, she did it in such a way that was so over the top, or so strange, that it became, in her terminology: a ‘headfuck’. Sadly, as I said, she passed away in February 2019, but she leaves behind a body of work which you can access via her youtube channel – see links in the show notes. Thank you so much to Katherine’s partner Tracey Jannaway and Katherine’s brother Alistair and mum Joan for giving their consent to share this material in this way.
I’ll start by having Katherine Araniello introduce herself, via a mash up of excerpts from her work, here she is… Enjoy!
[ding sound]
Katherine Araniello (KA): [from video blog 06, 2015] I’m going to talk about me, because I am someone who has a lot to say to you.
[Excerpt from film entitled ‘Follow me on my journey to die’, 2009, produced by 104 Films and the UK Film Council.]
[Orchestral superhero music fades in.]
KA voiceover: Art is life, my disability is my art, follow me on my journey to die.
[MUSIC, excerpt from “Nice Song”, 2017 by K Araniello]
KA: [Singing] Swifly moving on, I’m having such a nice day today, I’m going to paint my nails. Bedroom yoga is all the craze, I feel so amaze. Pink or red nail varnish, not sure which one to choose, but who cares, I’m going on a Caribbean cruise. Eating, drinking, laughing, lindy-hopping, everyone wants me to join in all the fun. I’m the life and soul of every party.
[Excerpt from “Sick Bitch Crips Pity Party”, 2013, with karaoke version of ‘It’s my party” by Lesley Gore.]
KA: [Singing] Come to the party, the pity party. It is so much fun.
[Excerpt from “Take me to your party” song, c. 1997 by Plastic Anorexic – the art duo made up of Katherine Araniello on vocals and visuals and Sean Donaghey on vocals and guitar.]
KA: [Singing] Please, take me, take me, take me, take me, take me, take me, take me to your party. I want to be there.
[Excerpt from music video Sick Bitch Blues, 2012]
KA: [Singing] I am a sick bitch. I got the sick bitch blues. I am sick as a dog. Oral doxycycline.
[Excerpt from Pity, 2013, performance documentation video, with vocals by Cipapella to the tune of Flying Lizard’s “Money”.]
KA: [Singing]The best things in life are free, pity does not grow on trees. I want your pity. Yes, that’s what I want, I want your pity.
[Excerpt from music video Lazy Baby by SickBitchCrips, 2014]
KA: [Singing]Tragedy, it’s a cunt. A venereal disease won’t leave me along. No no no no no no no no. Contagious, genetic defect, was born like this, born like this.
[Excerpt from Aaron Williamson and Katherine Araniello, aka The Disabled Avant-Garde’s video Amazing Art, 2009]
Voiceover: When Katherine was first born, everyone thought that she was normal until she showed no signs of crawling. After a few months she was diagnosed with a fatal, crippling disease called spinal muscular atrophy.
[Excerpt from music video Lazy Baby by SickBitchCrips, 2014]
KA: [Singing] Wouldn’t want it any other way. Tomorrow is another day. Wanna get under your skin, feel like you, smell like you, walk like you, talk like you, fuck like you.
[Excerpt from “If only I was normal” made with Laura Dee Milnes, 2016]
KA: I just wish my body was normal, so that I could do ordinary things like other people do.
Laura: Like what?
[Excerpt from music video Share the love II, 2017]
KA: [Singing] Porcupine vagina. Scrotum pancakes. Projectile turd balls. Everyday is the fuck off same. Mad is bad, ever so sad. Mother fucking beast. Turn up the heat.
[Excerpt from video blog 06, 2015]
KA: So I am someone who is exceptional, an overachiever, motivated and clever. But more importantly, I’m special, brave and I bring cheers of joy to people.
[ding sound]
OF: Hello again, so in this interview, I start out talking with Katherine about the possibility of her being a guest on a future episode of The O Show. Sadly, that didn’t come to pass, so again another reason why I felt it was important to broadcast this interview in some way. So, the first question I asked her was about her use personas – she and I had that in common as artists – but I said to her, if she were to be a guest on The O ShowI would want her to be herself, and this was Katherine’s response:
KA: I don’t know, I just think that, I think personally I am better at responding in a persona, as opposed to trying to justify and explain my work. I just feel that once I start explaining it, I feel I start becoming a bit preachy.
OF: Really?
KA: No, I do actually. I’m trying to... I don’t know, I come across as someone who is really hot on disability politics and I actually don’t think I am. I’m just sort of an artist that responds to what’s going on around me. When you worked for me I was homing in on assisted suicide. Assisted suicide was a new thing to me, but I have to be honest, I’m bored with it.
OF: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KA: So now I’m more into awkwardness, playing the victim. And also, you see, even now I feel the way I’m talking even now is really dreary and boring.
OF: Oh, don’t worry about it.
KA: So what I do is, I tend to, for example, the video blogs, vlogs that you mentioned, they are done in a really… because I had a look at other video vlogs and I just noticed how other people do them. One is they’re real and they’re really wanting you to either buy something, because they might be selling makeup or something, or they just want to talk about their lives. And they want people to subscribe and to engage and to follow them. Then I also watched blogs by this disabled guy who sees himself as an inspirational, motivational individual. So he’s talking about disability. So I thought right, I’m going to reverse everything here. I thought I’m gonna do a blog that is the dullest, dreariest thing, that actually doesn’t tell people about anything. It’s a performance to camera, but it’s so deadpan and so absolutely not saying anything about anything. And also homing in on all those and it doesn’t even mention disability. But if it does, it just sort of goes on about it. It’s more exciting to watch paint dry than to watch my vlog. But it was all considered, that was what I really wanted to do.
[ding sound]
OF: Just to give another taste of what Katherine is describing here, here’s another excerpt from one of her riveting vlogs.
KA: Every day I do amazing things. For example, today I had a cup of tea. I got up. I came downstairs. I checked my emails and I looked at my animals and I said hello to them. And after that, some post came and it wasn’t for me, it was for somebody else. And so after that, I went back to the computer and continued to check my emails.
OF: And now back to the interview.
[ding sound]
KA: And I really like doing because it sort of suits. I wanted it to be flat. I wanted it to be not animated at all. And so I started doing the vlogs a while ago. I sort of stopped doing them at the moment, but I enjoy doing them. Also, facebook for me, that is really good at getting inspiration for work. So many people use it as a personal diary. They tell people what hospital they’re in, they’re about to be taken to A&E. All this stuff I have immediate access to and I make work from it. I turn the dull into something even I find interesting. It’s like turning it around and it covers so many things. I wouldn’t know where to start. It’s like my website, I’ve been working on it a bit lately and it’s like in a way creating a, I don’t try to explain anything on it. It might come across as quite flippant. There’s stuff on it like I’ve put little paragraphs under the videos that don’t tell anybody anything.
OF: I didn’t notice that, I guess I just looked at the stuff rather than the descriptions. So is that part of the persona thing?
KA: So when I went to a university recently, I was invited as a visiting lecture, I think they call it. And I went into the theatre space and gave a talk and the way I did it, I put on a persona. I said, Hi, yeah thank you for inviting me today, it was quite a struggle to get here and it’s amazing that I got here anyhow because. So I play the victim. I play this person who is really lucky to be alive and I home in on all the sort of stereotypical imagery that one might have on disability and I integrate my work to it. So then, for example, I say part of one of the things I like doing, one of my hobbies is that I like to draw, and I did a little animated drawing recently and then I show them the Sick bitch crips animation.
OF: But what happens, do people believe the character? That happens with me with my O Show character, people just believe the character and they think that’s me.
KA: It confuses them.
OF: Exactly, so do people just buy that and then they don’t get the critique?
KA: Some people get it and some people don’t. I just think if they want to learn about it they can go on to my website and read my biog.
OF: You make them work for it.
KA: Absolutely. People don’t listen if you try to lecture. I believe that if you create humour and people may or may not engage in. Because I guess if you talk to me and I give off the persona as a victim, people will believe it. It can be quite amusing. It is a challenge and it’s also again in opposition to how I really feel. But I sort of like reverse it because again I did some research...
OF: Right because you don’t want to be preaching at them. Yeah.
KA: I looked at some disabled motivational speakers, which is quite hot in America. And it’s just awful because these people believe that they are special and they believe they are there to motivate, stimulate and inspire and all that shit. I’ve reversed it, so I go to uninspire; I do not motivate and I am not trying to make people laugh or anything. Of course, naturally, how I do it, does create a reaction.
OF: What reaction is that?
KA: Some people get it and some people get confused.
OF: Yeah. [Laughs]
KA: Some of them got the subversion. Some of them don’t. I think the stereotypical response unfortunately is that it gets them going down memory lane and they think about their mother who’s got Parkinson’s and their grandmother who is in a wheelchair. That’s a given if you’re a disabled person and people see you it creates memories for individuals because they try to make connections. If they haven’t met a disabled person or had a close interaction and all they know is the media bullshit that pumps out at them all the time, of course, they are in disarray. So I just help to push that disarray even further. [pause]
[…] Anyway, What did you want me to talk about?
OF: [Laughs] I wanted you to talk about how you dress and how you do your hair?
KA: Actually, it’s just my style.
OF: But you have style, I don’t have any style.
KA: You do, you choose to dress like that. No, because I think I’ve always been conscious of how the fashion industry and first of all they create gender-specific clothing. And so you must dress like this, this is for girls and this is for boys. That whole sort of commodify thing I’ve always been consciously not ever going to engage with that or comply with it. It’s about compliance. So, you know, I prefer men’s perfume to women’s perfume because women’s perfume is very sweet. It’s nothing to do with me... it’s in my consciousness, I just, I will not be dictated to as to how I should dress or what I should wear, or the fact that my hair is red and sticking up at the age of 51. It’s probably inappropriate to someone of my age. I don’t give a shit because I can’t bear to be, I always wear male shirts not because I’m trying to say I’m neither male or female, but because of my scoliosis actually, because male shirts are bigger. And I do prefer the design. So it’s for those probably disinteresting reasons. But I am not going out there sort of asking people to look at me in a particular way because I was very self-conscious from a young age because people would stare at me. But I got over it. So now I just don’t, I’m oblivious. Of course, I’m aware of it but it doesn’t touch or destabilise me. Also, I think there’s hypocrisy going on if I’m doing things that are say ‘playing the victim’, but I look as I do, I don’t look like a victim and that’s a bit of a mind-fuck as well, I think for the spectator. I think I like sort of rearranging everything so that there’s never any clear definitive conclusion or, I don’t know.
OF: You call attention to your appearance because people are going to stare anyway, you know. They’re looking at me because of my hair not because of my...
KA: You see when I was on holiday, some people did say to me...they made the statement. This is the thing, it’s like the assumption is that if you look outrageous or you look different, like for example my hair, that it’s something you’re doing purposefully, or it’s that you’re trying to say something, but what if you’re not? Where does it sit?
OF: [laughs] I don’t know. Yeah, so you think you’re doing it out of habit now?
KA: Not out of habit. I’m doing it because it’s part of my identity. It’s how it is. It’s like if I said to you, why do you dress the way you do? What would you say about that?
OF: Oh, I can say something about it. I think for me it’s wanting to be invisible and not draw attention to myself.
KA: I think that I am invisible irrespective, whether my hair is like this or not. But it is nice, I mean I’m not doing it to get public attention, I think that’s important to... I really am not. Years ago when I was in my 20s, there was a documentary being made about disability and fashion and I was asked and it took me by surprise, what are they talking about? I don’t even think about fashion. I guess I’m against it because I won’t conform to how society expects us to look. So yeah as a disabled person I’m expected to look a bit dowdy, maybe my hair is unusually... It is a style and an identity, I’m just, I’m comfortable with the way I look. That’s a bit boring.
OF: That’s not boring at all. I think not a lot of people feel that way, especially women. There are very few women who feel comfortable with how they look.
KA: They don’t? I gave up on that years ago because it’s all fucked up anyway. If I start worrying about that, I’d think my nose is a bit big. Because of my scoliosis, my teeth don’t meet when I close my mouth. Do you know what I mean? What’s the point? Maybe I think I do use all those things to my advantage. So in the work I’ve started to home in on certain things, playing the victim. But yeah, I am conscious of how society sees someone like me. They would, they could see somebody who had severe mental health [problems] and if they had a choice they’d probably still rather be the person who had all four limbs working. But you know, that’s just how our society is. So yeah I am consciously aware, but I don’t wear my hair to make a statement, it’s evolved. It’s just how I like it. It’s a bit like ORLAN. Have you seen ORLAN’s hair?
OF: Yes.
KA: Have you seen Rocio Boliver? I mean look at her!
OF: Yeah.
KA: Maybe what it is that maybe we are like not giving a shit about what society’s expectations and therefore we just take our. You have to be strong in your personality to do that. I know Rocio doesn’t and she’s amazing and it’s people like that I find inspirational, if I can use that term. It’s just a strong identity I think and it isn’t trying to... I’m not concerned about being looked at because of my hair. If someone says, your hair looks great, I like that. Some people shy away from compliments, or it makes them feel awkward or whatever. Don’t know if that’s useful?
OF: Yes, that’s really great.
KA: Are you telling the truth Oriana?
OF: No, I’m serious! [laughs] No, it is all really great. It fits in with my theories very well. [Laughs]
KA: Really? So you don’t have to rewrite.
OF: I don’t have to rewrite my theories, yeah, so that’s good. So, I have two questions. One is like going to back to what you said earlier about having got over being self-conscious. Why did you get over that or what led you to change?
KA: When I was a child I was very conscious of how people used to stare at me and it made me feel very awkward and really self-conscious, and also to the point where I couldn’t even talk with normal children. I found it really hard mentally to interact. And then I was actually placed in special schools, which was fine. But when I came out and you remember when I first went to Goldsmiths, I felt very self-conscious. I had a terrible time trying to communicate to the students because I felt different. You were there when I was there and I was a very different person to how I am now. But it’s a process, isn’t it?
OF: Yeah.
KA: It’s a process and I’m not saying I’ve always been confident. It’s more the last few years that I just don’t care anymore. So the question was when did it start to change?
OF: Yeah, well I mean also your style of dressing and how you do your hair, when did you start doing your hair that way and why?
KA: I started doing it years ago. Everyone was starting to peroxide their hair and I thought I really want to do that.
OF: When was this?
KA: This would have been when I was 18 or 19. And it seemed that everyone that looked cool had peroxide hair. So I just thought, I want to do that. So I did it, but then it just became too cool, everyone was doing it, so I had to change it. I didn’t want to be part of that clan, so I started dying it red and it took me a while to find the right shade, more orange. That’s, so again, it was a conscious, it was, yeah I guess it was a step from being quite self-conscious to wanting to look cool.
OF: Wanting to look cool.
KA: Exactly. At quite a young age.
OF: Yeah, everybody wants to fit in then.
KA: Exactly, and I just kept it up. I would be very depressed if my hair, I can’t imagine my hair being the colour it is, the natural colour, I really wouldn’t like it. If it was back to its normal colour, I would feel uncomfortable because it wouldn’t be vivacious. It’s like the reversal, if it was back to its normal colour, I would feel uncomfortable, very uncomfortable.
OF: It wouldn’t be you.
KA: I don’t really like it when I see other people with red hair.
OF: [Laughs] I also wanted to ask you about the whole I wouldn’t want to be in the mainstream... is performance art really making change?
KA: Probably not. No seriously, I think for a disabled person it’s more of a challenge actually. I think being a disabled person or anything counter to the norm is really popular. For me, a lot of my work always used to happen inside the ghetto, like disability festivals or opportunities for disabled people. And actually now I’ve managed to break past that, so I do feel I’m taking disability representation to a new audience. Yes, it’s an art audience but they won’t be so familiar with disability context. So I think people like [James Leadbitter] the Vacuum Cleaner, performance artists [who makes work about] mental health; Martin O’Brien with CF [cystic fibrosis], has a PhD; and Daniel Oliver, dyspraxia. So it’s like a new group of live artists who haven’t necessarily lived the same disability experience as I have, however they’re still bringing another type of disability to the forefront of performance art. And I think that’s really, it’s a good thing. It opens it up and even though they’re experience is different to mine, it's still about disability. So I guess I’ve found a niche where I can present work that does take it to an extreme. But yeah, I think for me it would be very, I’ve chosen to maybe, it’s very hard to present work. It’s like, for example, I don’t really show my brother my work because he just wouldn’t get it. It’s not because he’s stupid, but he just wouldn’t, he wouldn’t get it. As artists surely we just want to push ourselves and push like-minded people. Why should we be the disciples of the world? Who are we to? Ultimately, everybody is invited.
OF: But at the same time, if you don’t communicate outside of that bubble, then you’re limited in how much change.
KA: But if you put it on social media then you are.
OF: No, only your contacts and like-minded people see it. Nobody talks to anyone who doesn’t agree with them already.
KA: Not if you make it public.
OF: It’s still a bubble. Everyone was shocked by Brexit and Trump being elected because nobody talks to anyone who doesn’t agree with them already. That’s the problem.
KA: But it’s exasperating talking to people who don’t agree with you.
OF: [Laughs] I know.
KA: It’s really really stressful. I guess I choose to be around people who are going to elevate the way I think, not sort of suppress me. I already live in a situation in which society oppresses anyone who is different. Of course, I’m oppressed. So maybe, but what is the critique? We are not taking it to where it needs taking?
OF: Yeah, because we’re staying in our own bubble we’re not affecting change like the way we could.
KA: For me personally, my own survival in a world that is so fucking fucked up, is just to keep pushing myself and subverting everything. I think artists do take their artwork into the public. So for example at Buzzcut in Glasgow, there were lots of interventions going on within the public domain. But you can’t make people who are not interested look at it. How do you do that? How do you do it?
OF: I don’t know.
KA: But with DAG [Disabled Avant-garde] we have created fake stalls and we did that thing years ago at that university we got them to sign that...
OF: Yeah, yeah. We do do public interventions and things like that.
KA: Yeah.
[ding sound]
OF: Just to clue you in, DAG stands for Disabled Avant-garde, which was a duo that Katherine was part of with the artist Aaron Williamson. The two of them made a lot of work together over the years, one of which was a public intervention – the piece was called Assisted Passage (2007) – at Birkbeck University, where Katherine dressed in really dowdy clothes, nothing like she dresses in real life, hiding her bright red hair under a woollen hat. She played up her look to be as pathetic and victim-like as possible. And Aaron stood next to her with a megaphone and screamed out…
[Audio clip from performance documentation]
Aaron Williamson (AW): What do we want? Assisted passage! When do we want it? Now!
KA: [less emphatically and amplified by a mic] Now. Assisted passage now.
AW: What’s your position? Sign our petition! Katherine wants an airline ticket to Zurich, in Sweden!
[End of audio clip]
OF: Please rest assured that Aaron Williamson does know Zurich is in Switzerland, not Sweden. But it was all part of the joke, a joke that very few people in the public that day seemed to get because 37 people signed the petition against the budget airlines who were supposedly blocking her passage to visit the Dignitas clinic in Zurich. Yeah, so 37 people signed the petition and not one of them asked or questioned why it was or whether or not Katherine wanted to end her life, which of course in reality she did not want to do. So that was the premise. Let’s get back to the interview.
[ding sound]
KA: Yeah, you were talking about the way I look earlier. Maybe, perhaps the way I look does change, does sort of challenge people’s perceptions – the public who don’t know who I am or what I do, it will slightly... It’s something that doesn’t quite fit into the stereotype of how they imagine a disabled person looks possibly. So, yeah I think that I am doing my bit for society...[laughs] to try to, I don’t know.
OF: Is it alright if we switch gears here and talk about the work you did around the topic of assisted suicide?
KA: It was about highlighting how ridiculous it was and how absurd it was and this sort of ignorance and disbelief around believing that independence only comes from being able to physically do everything yourself, which of course is bullshit. None of us are. It’s ridiculous, none of us do everything ourselves. I mean, you don’t personally destroy everything that’s in your recycle bin, you don’t personally bring it down to sort of powder or dust, or turn it into something that we reuse again. So we all, it’s a whole chain. We all are dependent on others for everything. But obviously, depending on your situation in life, it will be higher. So for example, somebody who has mental health issues, their dependency is going to be completely psychological support. I mean people always have this, often it’s easy to say.. because I recently went on holiday and there was somebody on there who was also disabled and he was somebody that had a really good job and had loads of money and he was the co-owner of BHS, which went into liquidation and shut down a good few years ago. However, he was also somebody who became disabled 20 years ago. I heard this not from him directly, but second-hand through my personal assistant (PA), one of my PAs who I work with as an artist, collaborate with sometimes. This guy that become disabled, and was able to ride around on a scooter and physically eat without assistance, etc. etc., you know, his comment to my PA, artist PA, was “I don’t know how she does it, she is so brave”. And that was just [in response to] me eating and drinking and just doing normal things that you do on a holiday. It wasn’t be doing anything elaborate, because I can’t. That was his narrative for me. Also, other people on the trip were saying to my PAs “Oh she’s, I’m so inspired by her”. All I was doing was going around like everybody else, ramming food down my face and going down to the bar and ordering a few drinks, I was not doing anything outrageous. Ok, I have orange hair that sticks up and I need assistance with everything I do, even to get around the boat. And that’s the commentary that follows me. It’s not vindictive commentary, but it’s extremely, excruciatingly patronising. And then one of my PAs told me that one of the other passengers said to her, you really need to make sure she’s covered up because she’s very sunburnt, but not in my earshot. So I was getting all this sort of...
OF: Right, like you’re a child.
KA: Or someone that can’t look after herself. What I’m saying is that it sort of follows me, but I just see it as material, that will somehow, not necessarily directly, possibly, but will just come out in the work. So it’s that narrative that follows me around.
OF: Yeah.
KA: I think, going back to assisted suicide, I think I put myself in the position of I was somebody who wanted to end my life, which I absolutely didn’t. So it’s was parodying what was happening at the time.
OF: Or the perception that people might have of you. But, so what was it that first led you to do it? What was the inspiration or the impetus behind the first time you addressed that topic?
KA: Well, it was really being quite alarmed as to what was happening in the media and this awareness that even such a thing existed. Because for years and still now disabled people fought for equal rights and to have independence and be able to be in control over their lives, etc. etc. Those that were politicised were very much from a social model angle rather than the medical model. Suddenly things everything had become topsy turvy and everything was in disarray because I was witnessing disabled people themselves also, that were political, fighting for the right to end their life and it made absolutely no sense to me. There also was a disparity between any levels of equality because they were fighting for disabled and ‘terminally ill’ people to be able to do this. They weren’t saying actually anybody who wants to end their lives, there should be clinics readily available for people to end their lives. So it was very much targeted at disabled and terminally ill people.
OF: Yeah.
KA: So that’s what I felt was problematic. And watching...
OF: Right, yeah, so it’s counter to the argument of equality.
KA: Exactly. There’s a complete imbalance. And then watching so-called victims. The paparazzi were, it’s like they became sort of like thirsty to watch someone end their life and till eventually, they did. You know, it has been documented right to the point where somebody has gone to Dignitas where it is legal to a clinic to end their life. And what was really...
OF: They made a documentary and it was on TV, I remember that.
KA: Yeah, the BBC documentary. I think what was really appalling about it from the very beginning for me was that it was like watching a mirror reflection of someone saying “well, I won’t be able to comb my hair anymore and I won’t be able to wash my face” and I just thought, well I can’t do that anyway. Why is it so… Also, the ignorance about people not having a clue – or it just opened up so many things, Oriana – people are unable to digest the difference between… people still, I think still, the public that don’t meet or know disabled people or have someone disabled in their lives, do not understand the concept of being independent through assistance. Because what the media regurgitates all the time are documentaries that home on people’s lives where they have community nurses coming in and doing the bare basics. So to the general people, that’s how they see disabled people living their lives. So it’s no wonder that anyone that becomes disabled or who is diagnosed with a terminal illness, the majority of those people are in so much fear that they will want to terminate their lives prematurely.
OF: Yeah, because there is so much ignorance around you know how to live independently...
KA: People don’t know that actually, people don’t realise that being – I’m not saying everybody, but I think there’s still a huge amount of ignorance around... People don’t believe that somebody who is disabled, say the way I am – I need assistance in everything, everything. So if I say to somebody, like for example, I saw my consultant last year, I see him every year and he said, What are you doing at Christmas? And I said I’m cooking dinner. And again he, and I get on with him really well, but just the fact that I say that as an ordinary normal thing, quite normal thing. You know, to me that is, and when I say I’m cooking the dinner, I’m cooking the dinner. Ok, I’m doing it through assistants, but I am directing them, telling them exactly which pan to use, etc., etc., and what seasoning to use blah blah, but invariably when people come over they will doubt that I cooked and will ask who helped me. They believe that it wasn’t actually my cooking. Even though that might sound quite basic, but it forms the template to the work I make, I would imagine, it has to. If you’re always, if people, if society doubts your abilities from the moment you’re born. So in my case, because I’ve never experienced being able-bodied, but my mind is able-bodied. So everything I do, I don’t expect, it’s just a given. When I say I’m cooking dinner, I’m cooking, how I’m doing it is nobody’s business. But the fact is people can’t digest it because they can see that I physically can’t move. I don’t know how helpful this is?
OF: Yeah, no, it’s good.
KA: I think that is again part of many catalysts for my work.
OF: But I guess that’s the thing, to be devil’s advocate…
KA: So do it.
OF: I think the reason why people were advocating for disabled people and terminally ill people to have the right to end their life is because they physically can’t do it themselves, whereas able-bodied people can...because I thought maybe their argument could be, I don’t want to ethically implicate whoever is going to assist me. That is the argument. And to be equal they need different rights, you know, they need different treatment. You know what I mean? So I think that’s the argument behind...
KA: I get it, but I think the argument is, again it’s the generic assumption that disabled people need help in absolutely everything.
OF: Yeah.
KA: So I’m just saying this assumption that...it is a huge, the arguments that go for and against are really powerful arguments. You know, I’m not coming from that perspective and to be honest, I don’t really, I just feel that the whole… it’s become so... it is a dangerous thing to happen should it happens. These questions of mortality and life are in the news the whole time. For example the baby that recently they turned the machine off. It's like, I don’t want to get directly involved really in those conversations because it’s become so much of it and so many people chipping in that don’t really know much about anything, that’s it’s become not a subject that I wanna particularly make work on anymore because I feel that I’ve exhausted it. I don’t want my work to be seen as somebody who is trying to stop or support it. It’s just come to an end for me personally because I just feel that people are individuals and groups of people are so strong-headed in their beliefs and it is impossible to change and I wasn’t trying to change anybody. All I was trying to do was show the disparity and the absurdity of it in the relation to not being able to physically assist one’s self, without the assistance through delegating somebody else who is paid to assist you. That was my concern.
OF: So, ok, so you talked about what started it off, but I feel like for you, in a way its less about the ethical debate around suicide as much as it is about how people are going to perceive you on the basis of the fact that that is the predominant form of representation of someone like you. Right? Is that correct?
KA: That’s quite good. I wouldn’t say me, but I would say anyone that sits outside of the norm.
OF: That that is not a life worth living.
KA: They see anyone who needs assistance in eating or moving or... It’s the viewpoint that is unfortunately is quite a generic viewpoint that affects all of us and individually. So the ethical questions around it will just go on forever. So I’m not really wanting to be engaged with that to how I was because I feel I’m useless at arguments. Somebody can say, well what about? I can argue but I don’t wanna be...
OF: Yeah, so it’s not about saying… it’s not preachy in that way, it’s more like...
KA: It’s about, it’s basically crushing equality. It’s literally bashing it to pieces. It has a real detrimental effect on our society.
OF: Right. It’s basically saying… Yeah, it’s basically, sort of eugenics-like argument, that life’s not worth living, why should we support that life?
KA: Yeah, totally. And it’s also denial, it’s denying the fact that a high percentage of, everybody is now living till they’re older and everybody is going to need care and support at some point.
OF: Yeah, I know and society is so in denial of that.
KA: They start rejecting it. It’s like hiding it under the carpet.
OF: And that’s how most people get when they’re older, they just want to deny that anything is wrong.
KA: My parents are fine examples of that. They will not accept assistance because their belief that the minute they start accepting help, they lose their independence. So here’s me as their daughter, and I can’t influence them in any way.
OF: Right.
KA: Oh it’s different for you, you’ve always, you know. I can’t influence them.
OF: Yeah.
KA: This is, so I guess that’s my argument, if I have one, which I do. It’s just this sort of perspective on anything that doesn’t fit within a very narrow, well I’ve already said all this to you before…
OF: No, it’s fine.
KA: ...anything that doesn’t fit within the very narrow confines of what is seen to be the norm. That construct is so fucking narrow, it pretty much eliminates all of us. But everybody is in denial and can’t see the transparency of it. So people believe that they fit within the norm, but actually nobody fits within the norm...
OF: Yeah.
KA: ...because there’s no such thing as the norm.
OF: Yeah. So you were responding to the stories in the media about assisted suicide and you…
KA: Well, I have done, but I’m sort of bored with it now.
OF: I know, but I want to sort of tease out a bit more about the work and what were the strategies you were using to respond to them?
KA: I used lots of strategies. So one was often using myself as the victim like the video vlog was the first thing I did and I put it out there on youtube and I was bombarded with comments from religious people trying to stop me from wanting to end my life. And people were really believing it was what I wanted to do.
OF: No one, people not getting the joke.
KA: No, apart from maybe a couple of academics and friends. But most people really believed it. So for me that was sort of successful because it meant that I played the role very well. [Laughs]
OF: Right.
KA: It was interesting the amount of people that… Actually, hold on a minute, actually people who were trying to stop me. They weren’t supporting it.
OF: Yeah.
KA: But the way they were trying to stop me was you know in a really condescending way. So they were sort of understanding how I felt, but at the same time trying to say, but you know, it’s ok. So people were like very empathetic towards what I was trying to do.
OF: Yeah, so it’s really about like, sort of, I mean I think there’s a similarity between that and the playing the victim. I mean there’s a relationship because in a way, someone who is considering assisted suicide is seeing themselves as a victim and is automatically playing up to that sort of pathetic, my life is so horrible.
KA: Exactly.
OF: You know, it’s really related isn’t it? The...
KA: Crowd-funding?
OF: The website, yeah the crowd-funding thing. Because it’s playing on people’s perception of you, which you don’t agree with, right? Which is very much what the assisted suicide pieces are. I know you’re looking at me and thinking “I might as well kill myself”, so I’m going to play up to that idea in your minds and I’m going to make fun of you for thinking that. This is like even more, it’s like...
KA: It’s taking it to another extreme.
OF: Yeah, because it’s like I’m going to take your money. [laughs]
KA: Well I have. Nearly four grand of it.
OF: I’m going to capitalise on your pity. It’s a similar, darkly humorous… yeah.
KA: That wasn’t how I construed it.
OF: It wasn’t? Ok.
KA: But I think that’s a really good way of putting it.
OF: How did you construe it? Tell me how you saw it, if it wasn’t like that.
KA: It’s really interesting to hear that, butI think for me it was more like a personal thing because for me I can’t stand the way, again, it’s like looking at Youtube and all these terrible images of people with disabilities and in particular people with my disability, and tear-jerking stuff, you know, trying to raise money to find cures and, or them doing nothing extraordinary but it becoming so inspiring and so amazing. And again it’s sort of this whole, it doesn’t, it’s not helpful. So, for me it was about first we have to have an awareness of how people really see you, really see you and then start from that point.
OF: Os, so, oh, alright, so how did you go about doing that?
KA: Obviously, crowd-funding has become quite trendy – everybody’s at it. And lots of disabled people are doing it as well. One person I know is fundraising, trying to get a private prosthetic leg for her sister. Everybody’s doing it. I find the whole, I find again the mentality used to try to get money, and for people, it’s like as you say, it’s very much pity based. The template is pity. You engaging with that person and not seeing them as equal or as a strong individual, but seeing them as somebody that needs your help. And your help will be in the form of donations that will then make you feel better.
OF: Right.
KA: As an artist I knew that some people would have to be able see through the transparency of the, and actually support it as an art piece. But for the sake of this crowd-funding, it has to be done in the way that I’ve set it up, i.e. really drawing on pity. But in reality, I think most people that funded it are really just the art community.
OF: Oh, really?
KA: So I don’t know if that’s a success or not. [Laughs]. I’m not go start scrutinising it. This crowd-funding was to genuinely make enough money to get a professionally shot video that would...
OF: That’s the idea, but I thought it was a joke.
KA: No, that’s for real.
OF: Oh, ok.
KA: Oh yeah. That will simulate a music video that could be real, that is genuine in its content.
OF: Ok.
KA: And from that it was to put it out there and see what reaction it generated.
OF: And then how are you going to get it distributed?
KA: That’s the question. The thing it’s a real, it’s a bit of a challenge here because how far do I really want to take it? Do I really want to be invited to go onto one of those morning programmes? Because they always have a disabled person on there. And, you know, I don’t know if I’m brave enough to take it to that extent where would really being saying this is how I feel. But part of me thinks, actually...
OF: So, the song that you’ve written, is it what you actually think and feel?
KA: No, absolutely not, it’s a joke.
OF: So it’s sarcastic.
KA: It’s really dire and it’s really shit. I got a composer to do all the...
OF: So it is a joke?
KA: It’s a parody of what already exists…
OF: Ok.
KA:In America and here as well there are motivational speakers, some of whom are disabled. And a trigger point for this was I saw this guy and he is an evangelist as well as a disabled person with no legs or arms and he goes around preaching all over the world. He basically says, look at me I’m disabled, you can do anything I can, look at me.
[ding sound]
OF: Katherine was an avid collector of the kinds of representation that she was critical of. So here’s a clip from her files of the evangelist preacher that she just mentioned, that’s Nick Vujicic, when he appeared on Oprah. It gives you a clearer sense of exactly what she was responding to:
[Audio clip]
Nick Vujicic: Being born without arms and legs, it’s all about choice. You asked me what it was, I had parents who were my heroes. They told me, you can either be angry about what you don’t have or be thankful for what you do have. Do your best and god will do the rest. [Audience member says ‘Yes’, applause and whoops] Then consciousness, because I gave my life to the lord Jesus Christ... [Audience member says ‘Hallelujah!’] and the renewing of my mind… [Audience member says ‘Wow!’] I knew that I could be unstoppable. [louder applause]
[ding sound]
KA: And he did a music video, which was absolutely horrendous. So I thought right, I’m gonna do a music video as well that is a complete, me being this inspirational character in it.
[ding sound]
OF: And here’s a short excerpt from that song…
[Sentimental guitar music fades in]
KA: [Singing] Everywhere I go, I see you smile. Seeing me brings tears to your eyes. I know I make you feel so sad and that’s because I look so bad. Helpless. Time is running out, no mercy for me. Searching for a cure is all I have. Wheelchair-bound, in my chair. Look at me, withering and shriveling away.
[Music fades out]
[ding sound]
KA: The crazy thing is that these things exist for real. So one could say, I’m gonna do something for real, but I’m not, it isn’t real. But it might well come across as real, that’s the whole fucking idea, it could be and it has to come across as real. Otherwise, people will just say, oh. It has to come across as real.
OF: You use yourself in a lot of your work and you do a lot of video vlogs, but it’s never, like, there’s always some specific tactic you’re taking that you’ve decided on in advance. Right? You’re never just like presenting yourself as you feel yourself to be, like in an earnest, you know, truthful way.
KA: True, true, that is true.
OF: Would that ever appeal to you to do that?
KA: Not at all.
OF: Why not?
KA: Because…
OF: It’s too preachy, you’d end up being preachy.
KA: For me personally, it’s far more interesting to present whatever it is I do within a persona. Oh so, I...I, and again, I don’t believe I am, I don’t want, I’m not a guru on disability, or, you know. I’ve created my own agenda and my own discourse and my own way of thinking. And ok, I’ve picked up bits and pieces along the way just by living.
OF: Right.
KA: And so, I feel the only way to, it’s about reinventing the whole time and representation but in a different way. For example, you see a lot of disabled vloggers who are seeing themselves as the spokespeople for disability or as a role model, a positive role model. And again it’s so shit and so bad that I feel compelled to come along and alter the reading so that people don’t quite know how to read it.
OF: Yeah.
KA: And again, I think by being in it, it changes people’s perspective. I see a lot of disabled people vlogging and they’re just talking about their lives, oh, I’ve got this new gadget. I’m not saying it’s wrong to do it, but it does fulfill a mainstream stereotype. So I go against those stereotypes. It’s natural, I just can’t help myself; it’s just a natural thing for me to do.
OF: But have you ever seen a representation of disability that you actually thought was good?
KA: Yes, Aaron Williamson.
OF: Ok [laughs]. But also it's like can it be ever be represented as a non-issue?
KA: These are all the questions that one asks.
OF: It’s like the phenomenon of colour-blind casting, where you cast people regardless of their race because you think they’re right for the role, you know, or sex-blind casting.
KA: They do that at the National Theatre quite a lot.
OF: Oh yeah.
KA: Again, I think it’s, I think it works.
OF: Do they really do disability-blind casting?
KA: I think they’ve started to.
OF: Ok. It’s representation then but it’s not about disability, it’s just about, it’s just...
KA: There was one piece where, I saw a piece with someone that I know, a facebook friend, and she was in a National Theatre production and it was nothing to do with disability and she was just there. So she’s a restricted growth person and so there were things that had to be done for her to be able to get onto the table and move around, blah, blah, blah. And they integrated her amazingly well, and it wasn’t anything to do with disability. And the focus wasn’t on her, she was part of the group dynamics.
OF: Ok. So there you go, there are some. Yeah, but you don’t think you can contribute in that way of like?
KA: Well that’s mainstream, isn’t it?
OF: Yeah.
KA: It’s learning a script and also you’re not in control of it. Somebody else has written the script, somebody else is directing you. With being an artist, you’re very much...
OF: You’ve got all the control.
KA: Totally. And you know, I don’t even begin to, to try to explain to people where I’m at and the way I think, that would probably take forever. So that’s why it makes more sense to just if I collaborate with somebody then sure I will step down and listen to what their idea is and go along with it and it might not be necessarily a disability agenda, and I’m ok with that. But if it’s my own work, it’s important to, I have so much acute awareness of so many things and I guess it all forms a part of the work, but without my necessarily explaining it, it’s just there. It exists. It’s like you coming from NY, and your identity, you might not expose it, but it’s there. Do you know what I mean?
OF: Yeah. So that’s great.
KA: Is that helpful?
OF: Yeah, super helpful.
[ding sound]
OF: Thanks for listening to that interview with Katherine Araniello. I hope that it fuels your interest in her work and that you will go on to discover more on her youtube channel. Again, the link is in the show notes. If you had trouble making out anything that we were saying, there is a transcript available on my website or on my website. There’s a link to it in the show notes.
[Music: Next time on Multiple Os]
OF: Next time on Multiple Os will be the first of many interviews of the second season of this very podcast. It will be all of the best bits of my Instagram residency at Mimosa House, London, which is a gallery in London that gave me a residency for which I carried out 20 interviews with artists based in London, New York and Los Angeles. So, I will be airing them via the podcast because some of you may not be on Instagram. And/or, some of you may have the kind of attention span that I have when I’m on Instagram, which is that you’re just looking at the feed and the latest thing and you’re not searching through the back catalogue of the people you follow to watch hour-long videos. That’s just not what that platform leads to. So I’m hoping that these interviews can have a new life via the podcast in Season two while I work on brand new interviews for Season three. Something to look forward to!
[‘Next time’ music fades up and out. Themesong plays]
OF: Thank you so much for listening. If you’re enjoying the series, please support me via patreon.com/orianafox and even if you don’t, I’ll go on unconditionally accepting myself, my life and other people because we’re all just fallible human beings!
[Themesong fades up and out]
© K Araniello and Oriana Fox 2017, All Rights Reserved.
