Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Mrs. Right podcast with me, Bronte Bennett, author of The Squire and your podcast host. I am thrilled. In fact, I'm a bit giddy today because I have a bit of fangirling going on for the lady that we're talking to today. Hannah Miller, author of The Purpose Pursuit and generally all around generous soul is joining me today. Hannah, welcome.
Hannah Miller: Hello, that was very kind. Thank you, can't wait to be with you and all the listeners.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Thank you. And I say generous soul because I reached out to Hannah originally because I was working on a non-fiction and I just wanted to pick her brains and she gave me nearly an hour of her time to help me completely for nothing other than generosity of spirit. And that's the writing community and that's one of the things we love. So Hannah, I'm always really interested in the woman behind the book cover story because You don't just decide one day that you're going to write a book and write one. There's usually some kind of love of words or story that starts this off. Give me a little
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: bit of a sort of origin story. Where did it all begin for you? This love of word and story.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, it's such a lovely question to be asked, especially actually in the light of not long losing my precious mom because she's a lot of the origin story. So I'm the youngest child in my family and I remember my mom saying to me that being a lot younger than my siblings, very young I became aware I couldn't read. They could do something that I couldn't do. And I actually remember that with my youngest son. I remember him saying to me, I can't read because he was aware his brothers could. And so that started this desire in me to read. very young and so I had an early start with reading and wanted to read and then I kind of remember in those early years just wanting to read lots of books and I remember I this little nightlight that that I used to keep on way past bedtime to keep reading, you know, Ian Iblighton
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: or whatever it was I was reading at the time. And then when I would get caught for having my light on, would get my... This is a memory that came back to me the other day. I had like the control switch of my electric blanket, which had a tiny little amber light on. I've probably destroyed my eyes. I would hold that really close to the book and like try and continue to read. I mean, these... I know,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: that is adorable.
Hannah Miller: Kindle these days, right? It's different. But... I would be reading way past bedtime. I'm actually a very extroverted person, so I love reading, but I actually love being with people. So that's always a challenge to find time for reading, but I have always loved it. And I used to write stories. So my mum would give me a title. She'd say something like, the magic plant, and off I'd go. And because I was a lot younger than my siblings, I was a bit like an only child as well as having siblings. So I did a lot
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: of writing and then reading them back to my mum, who would tell me what she thought. And she used to say to me when I was a little girl, I think I'll write a book one day. And I've obviously not written a story. I don't actually think I have it in me to write a fiction. I think it's incredible to write fiction books. I don't think I can do it. But that's probably my origin story of loving words, loving reading, loving to talk actually. I then went on to be a teacher just really briefly. My early career for 10 years or so I was a teacher. And so I think for me the craft of teaching means it helped me. put together and obviously you've read my book, a way of helping people go through a process because teaching helps you understand a learning journey. So I guess that's also, I taught English, I've, you know, I've, my desire has been for children to want to read and my children will tell you I've nagged them many a time about, you know, getting a book out and reading. So that's probably the story. How's that?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I love that. I love the image you've just created in my head of this little girl with her electric blanket, orange light. And I had an electric blanket with an orange light, but I also had a tiny torch and I used to do what
Hannah Miller: Yes, yeah, that's that's clever
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: most children do and hide under the bed covers and then there'd be a rat-a-tat-tat on the door and my dad would shout, put your lights out, lights out. And he knew,
Hannah Miller: Yes, I know. lie there.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: he didn't even need to look to know that I would have my head in a book. That really resonates. and the other thing you said that I love was that your mum used to just give you a title and then you would
Hannah Miller: Mm-hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: write a story. I think that's such a brilliant idea. What a great thing to do with kids. Just great.
Hannah Miller: I know, I think mum was just like, what can I do to make it for something to do?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah!
Hannah Miller: that would, she, there was another one I remember, the Magic Plant, there was another store I've got somewhere here, the diary of a 10 pence piece. And she used to get to think about if we were this 10 pence piece that had rolled out of our pocket and gone down the drain and where did this 10 pence piece end or at Penny or whatever it was. So yeah, she was good at that, you know, she was good at that.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: That's, yeah, I think that's so brilliant. I'm expecting to be a grandparent in the next couple of years and I was wondering what to do with them because I'm not a mother myself. So I'm like, ooh, children, what do you do with them? I think I'll become that granny, the one that makes them write stories.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, and just keep providing them. I've got godchildren and I just love providing little nephews and nieces and I love providing them with picture books. I'm like, this
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: is a great one, let's do this together.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: I'm instilling my favourite books in them. Just
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: That's nice.
Hannah Miller: bought Dogger for my great nephew Hugo because I loved that one as a little girl and
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: the children loved it. So yeah, do that role. Picture books.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: And so it all feels very kind of very topical right now. There's a lot
Hannah Miller: Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: going on the TV. We're seeing a lot of stuff about reading and the importance of reading. And, you know, many of us can connect with reading. fiction through
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: our youth, but a huge proportion now of people are turning to books like yours, The Purpose Pursuit, in search of answers for things that they might be struggling with.
Hannah Miller: Mm. Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: And I certainly have a bookshelf here full of fiction and a bookshelf in my office full of the stuff that helps me learn and process information. So here we are several years later from the time when you were reading with the light from your electric blanket. You went through a period as a teacher and then we know that you're a speaker, you're a facilitator, you help people to learn the skills for being a grown-up human in the world. So I guess my question is, what was the germ that began to sprout
Hannah Miller: Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and became the purpose pursuit?
Hannah Miller: Yeah, good question. So although I said to you, you my mom always thought I might write a book, I didn't really think about that for a very long time. It was not on my radar and it's always felt and I guess it was historically quite an unattainable thing. Before the world of people publishing themselves, it did feel like this thing that happened over there. So I didn't really think about that. But what happened really was that as my, so I'd done my time as a teacher. I'd loved that. And I started my own business about 10 years ago, where, as you said, I do two things. I work with teams, leaders, business owners, help those people work more effectively together with a real emphasis on personality, a real emphasis on who are you, what are your strengths, what is it you contribute? That's my kind of bag. That's what I do. And off the back of that, then during COVID times, particularly, people started getting in touch with me. and wanting one-to-one support. Maybe people I'd worked with in those environments or friends of those people saying, I'm a bit stuck, I'm in a bit of time of transition, I don't want to go back to what I was doing before when the pandemic is over. And so through that process of beginning to use my materials and refine them with individuals, I actually had this moment and it was on holiday where I'm about to go on holiday next week, same place in France. And I think holidays just as a side point. are often times when we have a moment of thought or inspiration because our brains a bit clearer. And I sent this voice note to our friend James, who was our lodger at the time. He'd moved in for a period to live with us as a family and then couldn't leave because the pandemic came. And he was at home with our dog and I sent him a message and said, James, you're furloughed at the moment. I know you're really operationally minded, but I've had this idea for something to help people go through bit of a process to help them discover more about their personal purpose. if you want to help me I'd really appreciate it on an Ops side because I was thinking about it as an online program. And so that was the germ that began this idea of the purpose pursuit. That name came to me, I can only see it as a bit of a moment of inspiration. I thought about the idea of Pilgrim's Progress and how somebody's going on a journey through Pilgrim's Progress and sort of a version of that which was nowhere near as deep and meaningful as that. so having then worked with people one-to-one or even producing digital materials, Inside of me, genuinely I was thinking, what is the easiest way for this to be in more people's hands? Most people
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: can afford a book or somebody can pay for a book for them, whereas not everyone can afford a programme, a community coaching, but a book is something that if someone's willing to do it, that's available, that's reachable for pretty much anybody, right?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: And so that's where the idea came from. I'd love this to be in book form. I'd love this to be in more people's hands. And so I began to consider that idea. But that's the germ really, this idea of how do I translate what I've done into a format that more people can appreciate,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: these lessons that you're sharing in this book are not just for people that work in corporate businesses, they're for anybody.
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: one of my very good friends, She went through it, she's now found her purpose, but she went through this
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: period of time and she was like, I used to have this job and now I don't have this job and I don't know what I want to do with myself. You
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: know, I'm only in my early 50s, I've still got so much to give, but what do I want to do with it? Yeah, so
Hannah Miller: Yeah, yes, very common.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: common. So, know, reading the purpose pursuit just helps you to identify what does matter to you, where your strengths do lie and what you want to do with that. So you make it sound easy and we know it's not. How do you, take content from workshop or workshops and make it something that you can read and make sense of.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, such a good question. I think for me, the writing of a non-fiction book, getting your structure. is the absolute key. And spending time thinking about the mapping out and the structure of your book and how the pieces are going to hold together is really important pre-work to do. I think the rest can follow, but if you've got a good structure of how you're going to take people through a process, and for me, and you know this, you've read the book, there are certain repeating types of activities, ways in every single chapter, which means that once you've done the work of that, there are cases studies in every chapter, there's my story in every chapter, there are activities and questions and reflective activities, there is a summary at the end if you haven't got the time to read or you can't remember what you've just read because you're a 40-something year old woman, it's there to summarise. And
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: You
Hannah Miller: those factors are in every single chapter which means that you, once you've done that work of how do want to hang this... that felt very important for me to work on. what's the journey I want to take someone on and how do these, one of the things, this is a side point, one of my criticisms sometimes of non-fiction books is that it can sometimes feel that somebody has expanded an idea that really is a blog or is a good idea but it's not 10 chapters, it's not eight chapters, it's a two chapter thing. When I read a non-fiction book, for me a great non-fiction book continues to deliver all the way. So that was a question I really thought about. For example, I love the book Radical Candor. It's a non-fiction book around how we do relationships at work and
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Hmm. Yeah.
Hannah Miller: deal with conflict. I think that's a strong non-fiction book because every chapter continues to deliver and doesn't just feel like she's expanding the idea of Radical Candor to fit X number of pages. So if you're thinking about writing a non-fiction book, one of the things I literally did was get large pieces of paper and post it notes and do a lot of mapping of what could be in each bit. And
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: as I said, I do feel I have an advantage because I am a teacher, that the idea of structure is part of how I probably think and has
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mmm.
Hannah Miller: really helped me. And I guess for you as being somebody who also delivers in a workshop space, you can... take some of those principles and think how do I translate those principles into a written form so that people go through a bit of a journey in a process. And no, it's not
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: easy, it's not easy. And sometimes some chapters come easier than others or some things that it doesn't hang very well. And I don't love editing processes. I much prefer the big blur.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So there was a support team
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: around you that helped you to get it from that original idea into this beautiful, and it's behind me here, I've got hardback, I'm very pleased with it, book that is now in the hands of so many people. What came next?
Hannah Miller: So I'd spent time on the structure. I'd got a lot of the content from things I'd done before. And I had spent some time working on a, a book proposal. I had the support of somebody called Penny Windsor in book proposal writing. So that was a piece that I thought, right, I'm gonna put myself on the blocks here. I'm gonna ask for some help here. I'm gonna pay for that help because then it might actually make me get around to doing it. Because I think something is worth mentioning here is that for many of us, we have lots of other demands on my. I wasn't being paid to write, I'm not a famous author. I still have to do my speaking and my workshops, I've still got three children to bring up. Also, it is worth mentioning, in the period of time of writing the book to it being published, both my mum and my mother-in-law died. So my life was not in any way, shape or form normal. And really sadly, my mum died just before the book came out, which is really sad for me because the book's essentially dedicated to her. So that period did not have normality about it whatsoever. and I just had to grab time, weekend times and so on. But before I started to really write my first draft, A friend of mine who has a book published called Saying Goodbye, which is about, and The Baby Lost Guide, she's written non-fiction works around the loss of children and through miscarriage. I spoke to her because she had been nagging me for a long time about writing a book. Why haven't you written a book? Why haven't you written a book? And she said, I've got a contact. She's in the wrong field of publishing, but why don't you speak to her? She said, I don't think you should self-publish. She said, I think you should try and get published. This is what she'd said to me because I had not thought that was a route for me. So I spoke to this woman, her name is Elizabeth, and she said, of course I can chat to you next time you're in London. And actually, by the way, I don't work in that sector of publishing anymore. I now work in self-development for DK Red Penguin. And I was like, my goodness, she works in the very field that I'm. I'm writing. So we met for lunch. Bizarrely we discovered on meeting that I knew her sister through a charity that I am a trustee of. It was only when I saw a photograph or when I met her in real life I said, goodness, may you look like her. And it was like, wow, this is unreal. And she shared her thoughts with me. She explained how competitive it is. But she did agree to look at my sample chapter and to look at my proposal for some advice. And I didn't for a minute think anything would come of that other than that. What then transpired is that she sent my sample chapter to a few people blind. She didn't tell them anything about it. She just said, I wish I'd have known because I would have redone the sample chapter, but I didn't have a chance to do that. She sent it off to a few people who all were like, I like this. I like this. was the sample chapter was, I'll tell you which one it was for anyone who's interested. It was chapter five, the valley understanding weakness. That's the one that I sent as the sample. Long story short, several... months and process went past where she actually then said to me, I'm going to take this to a internal sales pitch meeting. I'm going to take it to my team and I'm going to present it as a pitch, which I could not believe had happened. And then It's August of 2024, I had a phone call saying, I'm phoning you because this is the best bit of my job. We would love to offer you a publishing contract. And I remember that really clearly. It was the end of a working day, sunny day. I'm standing in the garden. Laura, my EA is actually filming me because she can see me hopping about the garden and think something's happening. And that was the beginning of then some very hard work to get it ready and to write a first draft, write a second draft, write a third draft with a brilliant, I must say, my editing team, amazing. Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Incredible, what an incredible story. You know, it's the dream for so many people who write
Hannah Miller: Mmm, I know.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and so incredible that you were able to make that happen. And then of course the book launched And I was on the pre-ordering list. was
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: excited to receive my copy and... And it felt really appropriate for it to land when it did because, you know, often as we get towards the end of one year, we reflect and we think about what we want to make the
Hannah Miller: Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: next year look like. And so, you know, it was a really, really good time for me to sit and read
Hannah Miller: Yeah,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: the book.
Hannah Miller: it's a good New Year book, definitely. Can I tell you something exciting? Nobody
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, to refocus. Yes.
Hannah Miller: knows this yet, but by the time this goes out, if you go to Waterstones or Amazon online or anywhere where it is being sold, they've just released the paperback cover. So if you go and have a look and click on paperback, you will see
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Oooh!
Hannah Miller: the image of what the paperback looks like. It's coming out in December.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: my goodness, that is exciting. Hot off the press. Ooh, so the paperback will be available in December. Perfect. With a different front cover.
Hannah Miller: That's brand new news to me. Yeah, literally. Yeah, and it's a different front cover. So if people want to collect, yeah, it's lovely actually. I would love to know your thoughts when you have a look after. Love you to tell me what you think.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I will have a look. Yeah. well, that's exciting. And if anyone's listening, you'll all be clicking to have a look now, won't you? And thinking about your Christmas presents for your loved ones.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, please do. Absolutely.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So when you were thinking about this book, you will have had an audience in mind and you
Hannah Miller: Mm. Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: will have had an objective in mind. What can we expect to experience from reading your book?
Hannah Miller: Yeah, great question. So my audience was, it's actually quite a broad audience, but the person who I was writing it for is probably a woman who is in the middle of her life and she has people depending on her and wants to live a life that has a sense of meaning to it that is more than just, She's not a boss babe. That's how I would describe it. She's not somebody who wants to just, I want to earn as much money as I can in any way I can. She's actually somebody who is thinking about, have had lots of different priorities in my life and it's time for something new for me for whatever reason that is occurring. And it's important for me that... Whatever sector I'm in, whatever sphere I work in, it needs to feel good. It needs to feel right and that's why I chose the word purpose rather than it just being about career. So it's more holistic than that and obviously you know that you've read it. Although people are often thinking about work, I'm trying to present the idea that it's about more than just work and it's about our whole lives. yeah, work is a brilliant vehicle, but it's not the only one, right? So the
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: person I'm speaking to is somebody who wants that little bit more. I remember a conversation with a client where he said to me, his wife was working for one of the big five accountancy firms and she's got a very senior job there. And she said to him, she said, I feel like what I'm doing is just making this is this is her reflection I just felt like I'm making wealthier people more wealthy and I can't do this forever and although she had a great job and there a lot of things she liked about it there was this itch that she wanted to scratch and
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: she knew at the right time she wanted to go there and that is not to decry any of those environments and actually people can very much find their sense of purpose in them I'm not saying that but the person I'm speaking to is longing for it to be a bit more about the whole of their life. Interestingly
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm. Mm.
Hannah Miller: There's a girl I know who's a bit of a YouTuber called Lola and she's been YouTubing reading this book and she's only 20 and so it's had a younger audience than I anticipated because I actually think there are many young adults who are already much more purpose-focused because that generation are. So they are thinking about... meaning purpose, what's the value in this, what would I do with this life and how do I want to do that. Secondly, I want to say one other thing that's really important is that I don't want to be considered like one of these purpose peddlers that they live these perfect lives and they've got a huge amount of influence themselves. and they're suggesting what purpose might look like. This was aimed at the everyday person, and I mean that in a really positive way, the everyday extraordinary people. who are making extraordinary difference to the people that they encounter, whether that's two people, 10 people, 2,000 people. And so I was aiming it at this idea of purpose shouldn't be elusive, it should be something that's attainable to the me's of the world who are trying to juggle the normalities of life whilst also wanting to do things that feel like they contribute. and it's absolutely not a book for women, it's totally a book for men too, but I am aware that more women will read this, just for the,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Absolutely. Yeah.
Hannah Miller: it's written by a woman and I think that self
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: directs it that direction. But more than anything, I wanted it to be very down to earth, very practical, very doable, and trying to help people, because a lot of the women I work with want to be perfect or want things to be perfect and are worried about things not working out. And I just think we have to collect data in order to see. You
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: you
Hannah Miller: might do something that doesn't work out. I've done 101 million things that haven't worked out, but you get data from that that helps you make better decisions. And I think I'm trying to sort of depressurise the subject into perfection or a destination and more of it being around an evolving learning process, really.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, I love that about the book. It gives you permission to
Hannah Miller: Hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: try and fail.
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: that's, it's nice to have that. Sometimes we just need somebody like essentially you're the voice in the ear that's saying, it's all right, it's okay.
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: It doesn't all have to be shiny. You don't have to live in Dubai and you don't need to drive a Ferrari to find purpose in your life. And that's
Hannah Miller: Yeah, for sure. sure.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: nice because it goes against a lot of what we get from social media.
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: which is all about getting up at 5 a.m., doing half an hour of journaling, followed by meditation, some Tai Chi, then go to the gym, then come back and fiercely work for eight hours and make 20,000 pounds every single day. And I look
Hannah Miller: Yeah, I know.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: at that world and I go, what? I'm never
Hannah Miller: Bye-bye.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: gonna be that person. How am I supposed to survive in a world where you have to be up at five to journal? I know.
Hannah Miller: I know I actually did a blog the other day on optimisation and the fact that it's quite this constant measuring of everything and optimising every moment is actually quite anxiety inducing because you just and I want to be efficient and I want to use my day as well but I can feel myself starting to feel like I can't do all of that. I don't know how anyone with a without a great deal of help can actually do those number of things in the morning and set themselves up to work in this way. is, what I then said about is that we're talking about privilege rather than we're talking about purpose. So I mean, I'm about to get on my soapbox, but I have a huge amount of
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: love it. Get on it.
Hannah Miller: privilege. There's so many, and some of this I just want to say check your privilege, you because you are really talking about your privilege enabling you. So how do we enable people? This book should be able to be accessed by somebody who's got... way less privilege and opportunity because otherwise purpose isn't a real concept if it's only available to people who have huge amount of resource and freedom of time, it's not really purpose at all is it? It's privilege. So I'm not saying everyone can have everything they want because I also don't think that's true. But I do think that purpose is available to somebody that may not have a village around them and may not have the freedom to leave their job and may not have the freedom to make some of the choices that other people are. But that doesn't mean that they can't shift the needle and things can't get better.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah. So let me tell you, those of you who are listening and wondering about whether this book might be something you would find some benefit from, that the biggest takeaway I took from this was, as I said before, feeling as if I was being given permission just to not stress about all of this stuff
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and to feel a sense of contentment because what I discovered in the process was that I was doing a lot of the things that I should be doing. And there were, but there was definitely
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: some stuff that was noisy and distracting and not adding any value to my life. And through the process of the purpose pursuit, the activities that you go through in the reflections and the thoughts that you have on that, it gives you permission. You feel a sense of contentment. It's like a mind massage. It's just like, relax. So yes, buy it. And if you don't want the hardback book and you want to wait for the paperback, it's coming out in December.
Hannah Miller: It's coming, I thought of something
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Brilliant.
Hannah Miller: that I didn't say before about the writing process that might be useful for your audience actually because they are writers, a lot of them. Two little things, one that happened that was a disaster and one that was a really good tip from my editors. And I had this in my head all the time. When I started writing the book, the editor said to me, substance, substance, substance. And so that
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Hmm.
Hannah Miller: was in my head. all the way through writing. Is this fluff or is this substance? And so I did a lot of reading around the subject to be able to make sure there was substance from other people within the book. And then obviously if you buy the book, you'll know that every chapter is full of the references in the back. And that's the bit that went wrong is that I remember a really dark day where I discovered that I had lost the references for one of my chapters. If people understand, if they go and look at the references, they'll understand that that actually was hideous. mean, the references were all sorts of bizarre articles and connections to website addresses and everything. And I remember feeling so sick that I was going to have to find them all again. And I took myself to a coffee shop for the day. and just thought I've got to attack this beast and I can't move on until I've done it and just sat there and Google history was quite helpful and but I had completely overwritten my page of the references without realizing I'd
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Go.
Hannah Miller: done it. So I just want to say those things happen like you will have a moment
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mmm.
Hannah Miller: however good you are with Google docking and drafts and so on. I still managed to do that. And my friend who'd written a book before, said, even though they're there in the cloud, said, I send myself emails with everything on, so I've got a different place. because she had an awful experience happened to her in one of her earlier books. So I got a bit neurotic with having emails I'm sending to myself with like text on. So I was like, I've got this strange backup system. I've got my Google Docs. And then obviously as they're edited, you then have to make new versions of that. that was quite a... a very dark moment, but also this, I'd give people this, if you're writing a non-fiction, that little phrase, substance, substance, substance, was so helpful to me in every chapter I was writing, every paragraph I was writing, is like, so what? Like, why am I saying this? To avoid this fluff that could come in. And I do think that
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: sometimes you can feel like you're reading a book that had got fluff, and I'm not suggesting my book is the best in the world, but that was a real sort of... I kept having that as a benchmark as I was writing. So what?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: Substance, substance, substance. So that's my encouragement to somebody writing a non-fiction. Keep thinking about why you're saying it, what's the point of what you're saying, and how does it relate back to your actual point. My editors would keep writing in the margin, but what does this mean about purpose? So they'd encourage me to be as explicit as possible about why are you saying what you're saying and why is this in the book? And that was very, very helpful.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Such a massive learning curve, isn't it? Translating
Hannah Miller: Yes, huge!
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: what you do. So you're an extrovert, I'm an extrovert. We speak to think. So
Hannah Miller: Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: speaking is our method, if you like, and you're having to put it on a page. And it's a different way of communicating. And yes, you're good at structure and you were an English teacher, so you're good at English. But making something that's gonna really connect with people in a book form. huge learning curve. Question, now
Hannah Miller: Mmm. Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: that you've learned all of this, are you going to write another one?
Hannah Miller: it's a great question. Honestly, for the last while, I felt so personally drained because of having to keep going in a very difficult time that it's been really difficult for me to think about what's next. So I have actually been experiencing some of the stuff that I talk about in the book and I felt like I've been in quite a difficult season myself, which I'm just beginning to emerge from. And... First of all, never say never. Yeah, I think I would do it again. I would do it again. I think I would.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I predict that when you're on holiday in the same place again,
Hannah Miller: Yes! Good happen.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: you're gonna wake up one morning and go, I've just had a brilliant idea for my next.
Hannah Miller: I do feel ready to begin to think about that again.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: I haven't had, it's an interesting one that again, this is a side point, but there'll be people listening who are trying to write in really difficult seasons of their life. And I think the creative process, whether it's a fiction or a non-fiction, it's a creative process. It is quite exhausting, especially when you're already having to pull on your reserves because you're in not the most easy period of your life. And last year was probably like top offers, hardest 12 months ever. So
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: I'm needed to now recuperate a bit because I couldn't shift the deadlines. I was being published, so I had deadlines to meet and I couldn't push back. I didn't want to have a party when the book came out and didn't want to do the whole launch thing, but... because mom had just died six weeks ago,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: but I could literally hear her in my head saying, don't you dare not do this launch, you know, don't
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: you dare. So we dug in and we have to dig in sometimes. But then after that, I have felt like a bit depleted. So thinking creatively has not really been on my capacity, but I do feel like the signs of that coming back. So that's just being honest. And I think we all have those. years that are easier and years that are amazing and full of goodness and celebration and years that just tear us really.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, for sure. It's absolutely true. you know, I'm signed up to your newsletter and I follow your content on LinkedIn and I love your self-reflections and how authentically vulnerable you can be sometimes. You'll be like, everything's a bit shit.
Hannah Miller: Yes! And I also don't want to sound like I'm not abundantly grateful because there's so many things that are amazing but yeah it's not been easy.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I know, but you know that attitude of gratitude, I know a lot of people go, attitude of gratitude is a little bit frou frou, blah, blah, blah, it's a bit woo,
Hannah Miller: Mm, mm, mm, mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: but I have, my life changed exponentially when I moved into a mindset of gratitude for what I do have rather than
Hannah Miller: Yeah, that's right.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: pitying myself for the things that I felt I didn't. And everything shifted when I made that
Hannah Miller: Agreed. I agree.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: change in my mindset.
Hannah Miller: And it's a real balance as well, isn't it? I mean, this is slightly off-topic, but it is a balance between remaining grateful and positive and hopeful. But then what I don't wanna then do is not acknowledge this is also really hard right now. And I think what we struggle with as humans sometimes is that more than one thing can be true at the same time. you
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yes, that's right.
Hannah Miller: can be, my son's getting married in a month. So I'm celebrating that.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I can't believe you've got a son old enough to get married! You must have started young, Hannah.
Hannah Miller: I can't. I can't. I can't. What's he... I did start young, but he's also... He's 23 and I'm so excited for him. She's wonderful.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: It's so nice, it's so exciting.
Hannah Miller: She's so wonderful. But that's happening and obviously there'll be a little bit of me that's... My mum isn't here. And those two things
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: can be true. Like I can be beyond delighted, but also have some sorrow. And I think we sometimes feel like we have to be in one camp or another and... Walking alongside both of those things is really important to try and be able to do. Be abundantly grateful, but be like, do you know what, that's also really sad. And that's going on at the same time as this wonderful thing. The book came out at a time when I was also very excited to see this in, you know, to hold it in my hands, to also think the very person that's probably had the most impact on me ever picking up a pen isn't gonna ever hold it in her hands. And that's the reality. So if anyone here is, you know, listening, be encouraged that you can actually do really hard things in really difficult seasons but you do also need to put some stuff back in the tank after.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Thank you. So I guess it would be remiss of me not to ask you this next question, which is, have you found your true purpose and
Hannah Miller: Cool.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: If so, what is it?
Hannah Miller: That is a great question. somebody else asked me that the other day. One of the activities in the book is to try and encourage people to write their own sense of a purpose statement. And I went through that process myself for doing the book. And the idea behind a purpose statement is that, it might evolve, but actually that the statement is a little bit less about the thing you're doing right now and more about the person you are and what you are going to contribute, whether that is brand new in the office, retiring, becoming a parent, becoming a grandparent, whatever iteration you can think of about life. And the idea is that some of those things will stand the test of time. So for me, I think I've got a good idea of the things that I contribute and bring, and I am open to the vehicle being different. I feel one of my main purpose, I think, is to help people feel more encouraged and a little bit better after an interaction than before. think that's one of the things that I'm made to do is to make someone feel more value and worth in themselves than they did beforehand. And so whether I am working in the local coffee shop or whether I am speaking at a workshop or meeting someone who's sitting next to me on an aeroplane, can I do that in those environments? Can I bring that?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So you've left a couple of legacies already and you you've still got years of life left. You've got three children and you've now got one book at least out in the world which will continue beyond you. And I think legacy is something that is often a conversation that sits quite near to purpose. Do you ever have those conversations with your clients when you're talking about purpose?
Hannah Miller: Yeah, that's such a good point. And legacies is a big word, isn't it? Legacy. And it's.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Huge.
Hannah Miller: There's a book called The Second Mountain First Mountain is very much about building your life and the things that you might need or want for yourself. And Second Mountain is when you start to hit this point where you do begin to think about legacy or you think about beyond what I'm building for myself. And the interesting concept of The Second Mountain book is that you could be quite young and reach Second Mountain and you could also never reach Second Mountain because you stay in first mountain behaviours and what's quite interesting is there are some people who were in their 50s who are still very first mountain in their attitude and you could meet a 20 year old who's quite second mountain. Anyway second mountain is something that I think is about thinking about legacy It's really funny you mention it. I've been testing that word out a bit recently in my conversations and with my husband and thinking about, I in quite the right vehicle for my legacy work? I'm not sure I am. And that's the honest truth. I do think I'm at working purpose, but I don't know whether I'm quite on my day to day, not the book, because I do think that is a legacy piece. You're right, they are.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: I don't know whether in my day to day I'm quite working out what's my legacy work yet. And so that's the question I'm sitting with.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Well, that's nice. You've still got some work. I quite like it when we know that we've still got work to do on ourselves because I think that we
Hannah Miller: Absolutely.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: learn until the day we breathe our last and since maybe
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: that's what happens next. I guess I'm older than you and I think that I'm now 56. So, you know,
Hannah Miller: Mm-hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: retirement is 10 years away or something like that. And I coach a lot of people who are at exec level. So they're
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: moving towards the ends of their careers. And we have quite a lot of conversations about. purpose and about legacy and I find that we as we get older start to really think about what was the point of me and what am I leaving behind that's of any value? What's the point of me?
Hannah Miller: Yes, that's right. Yes. And it can also start to get jumbled up with actually feelings, and I don't mean this in a heavy way, but also feelings of regret, like what was the point of some of this stuff? Like what, as in the things I've done. Also, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying is a really interesting book because again, that's like, do we approach those legacy pieces now so we don't have to those conversations in our 80s?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So many people might... measure the success of an author by the reviews. And by the way, even though Hannah may not want to say this because she might feel like she's being a bit braggy, every single one of her reviews is a five star review, just saying on Amazon.
Hannah Miller: there's one on Waterstones that says, this is so funny, it says, nothing new here.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Well, you know what? One of my author guests on the podcast said to me, until you've had a bad review, you're not a successful author. Because if you've
Hannah Miller: Yeah, it's true.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: sold a book to somebody and they didn't really like it, they've still paid for it.
Hannah Miller: that's true. That is true.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I learned recently that for every book sold, it is read at least four times because one book really seldom stays in the hands of one person. So you may have sold, let's say you sold a thousand books, you've probably
Hannah Miller: Interesting! That's so true! Yes! Yeah!
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: hit 4,000 readers. Isn't that an amazing point?
Hannah Miller: That's a really good point.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: There's so many ways. So there's lots of different measures of success. So I suppose
Hannah Miller: Yes.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: my question for you now has to be, what does success as an author mean to you? And has it
Hannah Miller: Mm. Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: changed since the beginning of this journey?
Hannah Miller: All of that is a really good point. I talk about measures of success a lot because I think it's good to be ambitious and there is nothing wrong with saying I'd love to write a book that's going to make the charts, right? I don't think there's anything wrong with that ambition, but it's not fully in your control. That's the problem. So the problem with some of those measures are you cannot, unless you're going to buy the book yourself a million times, you cannot orchestrate that result entirely. You can write a good work, you can get it in the right people's hands, but there is also an element of luck in all of our lives. A bit like me having that conversation with the woman. I'm fully aware that there was a right time, right place, right person, right connection, good
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: writing. I feel like I wrote it well, but there was a lot of other things that helped me, with my book, a measure of success for me is that I was going to put my heart and soul into going through the process and giving it the best I could. Time constraints and everything, you know, being... and when I was given feedback I would improve and do what I can and that we would do our best to talk about the book and get it out there within the constraints of being a tiny little me and not having, don't have a, even though I'm published, don't, unless you are Richard Osment. There isn't any budget for you. That is just the truth, right? So I would want to just dispel that myth that you don't have a budget for that kind of thing. They might help you get a door open, but really, I've pushed that myself.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, marketing is a topic that comes up all the time on this podcast because
Hannah Miller: Mmm, yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: a lot of people that I speak to are introverts, but they know that one of the parts of their
Hannah Miller: really hard.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: job, whether they're traditionally published or not, you know, I now understand that even trad published authors have to do a lot of marketing. And so, you know, it's TikTok, it's Instagram, it's book
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: fairs, it's book shops, it's whatever you can do to generate the sales and for a lot of us that's quite a challenge.
Hannah Miller: and you've probably got another job, right?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: And most of us have got a different job, a full-time job and this
Hannah Miller: Yes. Yes.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: is our passion project. So for a lot of people it's a passion project, not a money maker. And for some of us it actually costs money. So
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: if you self-publish you can expect to lay out anything from a thousand to two thousand five hundred pounds just to get your
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: book on the on the shelves in the first place. And then your next job is to try and at least recoup that. And as time goes on, the expenses drop because you don't need to buy as much of the software and all that kind of stuff. But
Hannah Miller: Close.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: it has to be your measure of success. You're so right. Has to be about something more than how many books you've sold or how many stars you're
Hannah Miller: Mm, mm, mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: getting on your reviews. And I think, you know, one of the things I would say to you, having read your book, and lent it to a friend who was struggling who also found it incredibly helpful is this. We are whole human beings with whole lives and you have contributed something really valuable in our lives through your book. That, if that's not success, I don't know what
Hannah Miller: Hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: is. And you can times that by the number of people that have read it, not just bought it, which may be a
Hannah Miller: Yeah, that's...
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: different figure.
Hannah Miller: And that is a lovely thought and to think that that could make a difference. And when I've had people who I've worked with, sometimes I get an email or a direct message on socials and they say, I read your book and I've just got this job or this has happened. Those for me are some of the best bits of feedback that I can possibly get, absolutely. Those are the bits that really do stand the test of time. Yeah, don't get me wrong, would be amazing if it gained the kind attraction that people would love to see their work get but actually nothing beats somebody's life being moved and you could sell a lot of books and also get a lot of negativity. mean there's books out there that are divisive and you have to deal with a lot of like
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yes, that's true. Yeah.
Hannah Miller: one-star, five-star kind of approaches and I'm not sure I'm cut out for that so maybe it's better I'm writing that.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: You know, no, you do have to leave, you do leave yourself vulnerable, don't you? But you know, you and I have both said that we love Pride and Prejudice. Jane Austen wrote Pride and Prejudice
Hannah Miller: Yes. Yes.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: a long time ago. She's been dead a long time. And her books,
Hannah Miller: she has.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: still, are still out there and people are still enjoying them. And she's influenced me to be a writer and to write romance where classes clash and...
Hannah Miller: Mm-hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: misunderstandings are plenty and she knows nothing about it and yet she has to be one of the world's most successful authors so
Hannah Miller: so true. It's so true.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and she never got a review on Amazon or Goodreads.
Hannah Miller: No, no, that's right. And you have plenty, there are plenty artists who never got the claim for their art, did they, until they passed? And literally, mean, at least she did get people reading her books. There are plenty artists who didn't sell a thing until they died, and they died paupers, but their work has gone
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: That's so true. I know.
Hannah Miller: on to bless the world, hundreds of years beyond. So you're right, those things, we get caught up sometimes into metrics that on, There's nothing wrong with that, but if they drive it, can kill it a little bit and kill the whole process.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, yes. So let's applaud ourselves. Hurrah. Only 3 %
Hannah Miller: Yes, let's not go there.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: of people who decide they're gonna write a book actually finish it and get it published. 3 % of people
Hannah Miller: Wow, really interesting.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: who want to write. That's not 3 % of the population. It's 3 % of people who
Hannah Miller: No, that's interesting.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: start. So yes, applaud, applaud, applaud. We've done a good job.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, yeah, that's good. I didn't know that. That is it. I'm gonna take that away and be proud.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, you should. You absolutely should. So as we reach the end of our conversation, which I've loved, by the way, thank you. I
Hannah Miller: Thank you.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: find talking to you very inspiring every single time. I like to finish with what I call my 10 in 10 and my 10 in
Hannah Miller: Mm-hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: 10 is where I ask you to take off your author hat and put on your reader hat and
Hannah Miller: Okay. Okay.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I'm going to give you 10 do you prefer this or that and you
Hannah Miller: Okay.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: have to answer as quickly as you can. Are you ready? All right, okay.
Hannah Miller: Love this. Great. Yeah. Love it.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So thinking as a reader, do you prefer sweet or spicy?
Hannah Miller: sweet.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Fact or fiction?
Hannah Miller: fiction.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: cliffhanger or happily ever after.
Hannah Miller: flavor after.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: short or long chapters.
Hannah Miller: Ooh. probably short. Not sure.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: ebook? Okay. You're not sure? That's okay.
Hannah Miller: Am I allowed to say not sure for that one?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: You're allowed. You're allowed. I'm really quite accommodating with the answerings.
Hannah Miller: Thank you, this kind of you.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: E-book or physical book?
Hannah Miller: my heart says physical, but I have become a Kindle devotee over the last couple of years and I actually really like it. I'm very late to adopting it and certain books I want physical. Would that be fair to say? I would want this as a physical book to be honest because of the nature of it. Although it is on Kindle.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I always, yeah, I always buy my non-fictions in physical book form, but I often
Hannah Miller: Yeah, I
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: read or listen to my fiction.
Hannah Miller: Same, same, exactly.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah. Series or standalone.
Hannah Miller: probably standalone but have just read a series. The whole of it, back to back. But I think I'm probably... Yes it was!
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Wasn't the Seven Sisters, was it? Isn't that the best series ever? I might've, I don't know, but honestly, absolutely, so did I. Brilliant,
Hannah Miller: Did you recommend it to me? Did you recommend it to me? Several people did, just read them all. I really enjoyed the Atlas one as well, really enjoyed that one.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: if you're listening to us waffle, yeah, Lucinda Riley, the Seven Sisters series, absolutely brilliant. Yeah, so good.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, I did really enjoy that. Yeah, but normally I'm a standalone.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Okay, dog-eared or pristine?
Hannah Miller: Dog eared husband is pristine and I'm dog eared Not a great combo It's not a
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: was talking about books, not people, but you know, whatever.
Hannah Miller: great combination of sharing books because he's like, well Yeah, no dog it yeah dog it in the bath and everything. Yeah
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Stop bending my buck. Bed... nice. Yeah bedtime or any time.
Hannah Miller: Anytime but bedtime is a rhythm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mmm. One at a time or multiple choice.
Hannah Miller: I tend to have a non-fiction on the go, I have a Kindle book on the go for bed and I always have an audiobook on the go.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Literally exactly the same. I wonder how many people are like that. Like when
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: you're ironing, walking the dog or driving audio, Kindle for bedtime and physical
Hannah Miller: gosh, yeah. Love it. Yeah. And then a non-fiction which is separate.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: book for self-development. Love that. Last question.
Hannah Miller: Totally, that's what I do. Can I just say my husband's bedside table, I've had to take them off because it was actually absurd, about 17 books on top of one another on his bedside. I'm like, that is not mainly non-fiction or he reads theology and philosophy and I'm like this is absurd. I've hidden them. like read some of these one at a time. Sorry. I've, I've, it's ridiculous. I know.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: You've had to control his reading. bless. That's amazing, I mean, I think we can all relate to the to be read pile scenario, but not usually literally on your bedside table. It's a health and safety issue apart from anything else.
Hannah Miller: definitely but on your bedside! No, sorry the questions. Exactly and it's ugly.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and a dust magnet but we digress last question
Hannah Miller: It is, all those things. Sorry. Yes.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: bookmark or fold the corner
Hannah Miller: I've got a lovely couple of bookmarks that have been given to me so bookmark but if I don't have a bookmark I tend to not even I tend to just forget to even fold the corner and then just have to spend eight years trying to find where it was but I would fold the corner 100 %
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah. Hannah Miller, author of The Purpose Pursuit. It has been every inch the joy I knew it would be to spend this time talking to you. Thank
Hannah Miller: thank you.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: you so much for joining the Mrs. Right podcast.
Hannah Miller: I have loved being on. a joy to talk about writing and reading with you. Thank you so much.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Thank you. So for those of you who are interested in purchasing a copy of The Purpose Pursuit, you will find access to Hannah, her website, you can sign up for her emails, you can find the book in various places, all the links are in the show notes. And for now, I'm going to say a goodbye from me and a goodbye from Hannah. Bye bye.
Hannah Miller: Bye. Bye.
Hannah Miller: Hello, that was very kind. Thank you, can't wait to be with you and all the listeners.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Thank you. And I say generous soul because I reached out to Hannah originally because I was working on a non-fiction and I just wanted to pick her brains and she gave me nearly an hour of her time to help me completely for nothing other than generosity of spirit. And that's the writing community and that's one of the things we love. So Hannah, I'm always really interested in the woman behind the book cover story because You don't just decide one day that you're going to write a book and write one. There's usually some kind of love of words or story that starts this off. Give me a little
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: bit of a sort of origin story. Where did it all begin for you? This love of word and story.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, it's such a lovely question to be asked, especially actually in the light of not long losing my precious mom because she's a lot of the origin story. So I'm the youngest child in my family and I remember my mom saying to me that being a lot younger than my siblings, very young I became aware I couldn't read. They could do something that I couldn't do. And I actually remember that with my youngest son. I remember him saying to me, I can't read because he was aware his brothers could. And so that started this desire in me to read. very young and so I had an early start with reading and wanted to read and then I kind of remember in those early years just wanting to read lots of books and I remember I this little nightlight that that I used to keep on way past bedtime to keep reading, you know, Ian Iblighton
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: or whatever it was I was reading at the time. And then when I would get caught for having my light on, would get my... This is a memory that came back to me the other day. I had like the control switch of my electric blanket, which had a tiny little amber light on. I've probably destroyed my eyes. I would hold that really close to the book and like try and continue to read. I mean, these... I know,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: that is adorable.
Hannah Miller: Kindle these days, right? It's different. But... I would be reading way past bedtime. I'm actually a very extroverted person, so I love reading, but I actually love being with people. So that's always a challenge to find time for reading, but I have always loved it. And I used to write stories. So my mum would give me a title. She'd say something like, the magic plant, and off I'd go. And because I was a lot younger than my siblings, I was a bit like an only child as well as having siblings. So I did a lot
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: of writing and then reading them back to my mum, who would tell me what she thought. And she used to say to me when I was a little girl, I think I'll write a book one day. And I've obviously not written a story. I don't actually think I have it in me to write a fiction. I think it's incredible to write fiction books. I don't think I can do it. But that's probably my origin story of loving words, loving reading, loving to talk actually. I then went on to be a teacher just really briefly. My early career for 10 years or so I was a teacher. And so I think for me the craft of teaching means it helped me. put together and obviously you've read my book, a way of helping people go through a process because teaching helps you understand a learning journey. So I guess that's also, I taught English, I've, you know, I've, my desire has been for children to want to read and my children will tell you I've nagged them many a time about, you know, getting a book out and reading. So that's probably the story. How's that?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I love that. I love the image you've just created in my head of this little girl with her electric blanket, orange light. And I had an electric blanket with an orange light, but I also had a tiny torch and I used to do what
Hannah Miller: Yes, yeah, that's that's clever
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: most children do and hide under the bed covers and then there'd be a rat-a-tat-tat on the door and my dad would shout, put your lights out, lights out. And he knew,
Hannah Miller: Yes, I know. lie there.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: he didn't even need to look to know that I would have my head in a book. That really resonates. and the other thing you said that I love was that your mum used to just give you a title and then you would
Hannah Miller: Mm-hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: write a story. I think that's such a brilliant idea. What a great thing to do with kids. Just great.
Hannah Miller: I know, I think mum was just like, what can I do to make it for something to do?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah!
Hannah Miller: that would, she, there was another one I remember, the Magic Plant, there was another store I've got somewhere here, the diary of a 10 pence piece. And she used to get to think about if we were this 10 pence piece that had rolled out of our pocket and gone down the drain and where did this 10 pence piece end or at Penny or whatever it was. So yeah, she was good at that, you know, she was good at that.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: That's, yeah, I think that's so brilliant. I'm expecting to be a grandparent in the next couple of years and I was wondering what to do with them because I'm not a mother myself. So I'm like, ooh, children, what do you do with them? I think I'll become that granny, the one that makes them write stories.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, and just keep providing them. I've got godchildren and I just love providing little nephews and nieces and I love providing them with picture books. I'm like, this
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: is a great one, let's do this together.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: I'm instilling my favourite books in them. Just
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: That's nice.
Hannah Miller: bought Dogger for my great nephew Hugo because I loved that one as a little girl and
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: the children loved it. So yeah, do that role. Picture books.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: And so it all feels very kind of very topical right now. There's a lot
Hannah Miller: Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: going on the TV. We're seeing a lot of stuff about reading and the importance of reading. And, you know, many of us can connect with reading. fiction through
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: our youth, but a huge proportion now of people are turning to books like yours, The Purpose Pursuit, in search of answers for things that they might be struggling with.
Hannah Miller: Mm. Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: And I certainly have a bookshelf here full of fiction and a bookshelf in my office full of the stuff that helps me learn and process information. So here we are several years later from the time when you were reading with the light from your electric blanket. You went through a period as a teacher and then we know that you're a speaker, you're a facilitator, you help people to learn the skills for being a grown-up human in the world. So I guess my question is, what was the germ that began to sprout
Hannah Miller: Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and became the purpose pursuit?
Hannah Miller: Yeah, good question. So although I said to you, you my mom always thought I might write a book, I didn't really think about that for a very long time. It was not on my radar and it's always felt and I guess it was historically quite an unattainable thing. Before the world of people publishing themselves, it did feel like this thing that happened over there. So I didn't really think about that. But what happened really was that as my, so I'd done my time as a teacher. I'd loved that. And I started my own business about 10 years ago, where, as you said, I do two things. I work with teams, leaders, business owners, help those people work more effectively together with a real emphasis on personality, a real emphasis on who are you, what are your strengths, what is it you contribute? That's my kind of bag. That's what I do. And off the back of that, then during COVID times, particularly, people started getting in touch with me. and wanting one-to-one support. Maybe people I'd worked with in those environments or friends of those people saying, I'm a bit stuck, I'm in a bit of time of transition, I don't want to go back to what I was doing before when the pandemic is over. And so through that process of beginning to use my materials and refine them with individuals, I actually had this moment and it was on holiday where I'm about to go on holiday next week, same place in France. And I think holidays just as a side point. are often times when we have a moment of thought or inspiration because our brains a bit clearer. And I sent this voice note to our friend James, who was our lodger at the time. He'd moved in for a period to live with us as a family and then couldn't leave because the pandemic came. And he was at home with our dog and I sent him a message and said, James, you're furloughed at the moment. I know you're really operationally minded, but I've had this idea for something to help people go through bit of a process to help them discover more about their personal purpose. if you want to help me I'd really appreciate it on an Ops side because I was thinking about it as an online program. And so that was the germ that began this idea of the purpose pursuit. That name came to me, I can only see it as a bit of a moment of inspiration. I thought about the idea of Pilgrim's Progress and how somebody's going on a journey through Pilgrim's Progress and sort of a version of that which was nowhere near as deep and meaningful as that. so having then worked with people one-to-one or even producing digital materials, Inside of me, genuinely I was thinking, what is the easiest way for this to be in more people's hands? Most people
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: can afford a book or somebody can pay for a book for them, whereas not everyone can afford a programme, a community coaching, but a book is something that if someone's willing to do it, that's available, that's reachable for pretty much anybody, right?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: And so that's where the idea came from. I'd love this to be in book form. I'd love this to be in more people's hands. And so I began to consider that idea. But that's the germ really, this idea of how do I translate what I've done into a format that more people can appreciate,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: these lessons that you're sharing in this book are not just for people that work in corporate businesses, they're for anybody.
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: one of my very good friends, She went through it, she's now found her purpose, but she went through this
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: period of time and she was like, I used to have this job and now I don't have this job and I don't know what I want to do with myself. You
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: know, I'm only in my early 50s, I've still got so much to give, but what do I want to do with it? Yeah, so
Hannah Miller: Yeah, yes, very common.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: common. So, know, reading the purpose pursuit just helps you to identify what does matter to you, where your strengths do lie and what you want to do with that. So you make it sound easy and we know it's not. How do you, take content from workshop or workshops and make it something that you can read and make sense of.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, such a good question. I think for me, the writing of a non-fiction book, getting your structure. is the absolute key. And spending time thinking about the mapping out and the structure of your book and how the pieces are going to hold together is really important pre-work to do. I think the rest can follow, but if you've got a good structure of how you're going to take people through a process, and for me, and you know this, you've read the book, there are certain repeating types of activities, ways in every single chapter, which means that once you've done the work of that, there are cases studies in every chapter, there's my story in every chapter, there are activities and questions and reflective activities, there is a summary at the end if you haven't got the time to read or you can't remember what you've just read because you're a 40-something year old woman, it's there to summarise. And
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: You
Hannah Miller: those factors are in every single chapter which means that you, once you've done that work of how do want to hang this... that felt very important for me to work on. what's the journey I want to take someone on and how do these, one of the things, this is a side point, one of my criticisms sometimes of non-fiction books is that it can sometimes feel that somebody has expanded an idea that really is a blog or is a good idea but it's not 10 chapters, it's not eight chapters, it's a two chapter thing. When I read a non-fiction book, for me a great non-fiction book continues to deliver all the way. So that was a question I really thought about. For example, I love the book Radical Candor. It's a non-fiction book around how we do relationships at work and
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Hmm. Yeah.
Hannah Miller: deal with conflict. I think that's a strong non-fiction book because every chapter continues to deliver and doesn't just feel like she's expanding the idea of Radical Candor to fit X number of pages. So if you're thinking about writing a non-fiction book, one of the things I literally did was get large pieces of paper and post it notes and do a lot of mapping of what could be in each bit. And
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: as I said, I do feel I have an advantage because I am a teacher, that the idea of structure is part of how I probably think and has
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mmm.
Hannah Miller: really helped me. And I guess for you as being somebody who also delivers in a workshop space, you can... take some of those principles and think how do I translate those principles into a written form so that people go through a bit of a journey in a process. And no, it's not
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: easy, it's not easy. And sometimes some chapters come easier than others or some things that it doesn't hang very well. And I don't love editing processes. I much prefer the big blur.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So there was a support team
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: around you that helped you to get it from that original idea into this beautiful, and it's behind me here, I've got hardback, I'm very pleased with it, book that is now in the hands of so many people. What came next?
Hannah Miller: So I'd spent time on the structure. I'd got a lot of the content from things I'd done before. And I had spent some time working on a, a book proposal. I had the support of somebody called Penny Windsor in book proposal writing. So that was a piece that I thought, right, I'm gonna put myself on the blocks here. I'm gonna ask for some help here. I'm gonna pay for that help because then it might actually make me get around to doing it. Because I think something is worth mentioning here is that for many of us, we have lots of other demands on my. I wasn't being paid to write, I'm not a famous author. I still have to do my speaking and my workshops, I've still got three children to bring up. Also, it is worth mentioning, in the period of time of writing the book to it being published, both my mum and my mother-in-law died. So my life was not in any way, shape or form normal. And really sadly, my mum died just before the book came out, which is really sad for me because the book's essentially dedicated to her. So that period did not have normality about it whatsoever. and I just had to grab time, weekend times and so on. But before I started to really write my first draft, A friend of mine who has a book published called Saying Goodbye, which is about, and The Baby Lost Guide, she's written non-fiction works around the loss of children and through miscarriage. I spoke to her because she had been nagging me for a long time about writing a book. Why haven't you written a book? Why haven't you written a book? And she said, I've got a contact. She's in the wrong field of publishing, but why don't you speak to her? She said, I don't think you should self-publish. She said, I think you should try and get published. This is what she'd said to me because I had not thought that was a route for me. So I spoke to this woman, her name is Elizabeth, and she said, of course I can chat to you next time you're in London. And actually, by the way, I don't work in that sector of publishing anymore. I now work in self-development for DK Red Penguin. And I was like, my goodness, she works in the very field that I'm. I'm writing. So we met for lunch. Bizarrely we discovered on meeting that I knew her sister through a charity that I am a trustee of. It was only when I saw a photograph or when I met her in real life I said, goodness, may you look like her. And it was like, wow, this is unreal. And she shared her thoughts with me. She explained how competitive it is. But she did agree to look at my sample chapter and to look at my proposal for some advice. And I didn't for a minute think anything would come of that other than that. What then transpired is that she sent my sample chapter to a few people blind. She didn't tell them anything about it. She just said, I wish I'd have known because I would have redone the sample chapter, but I didn't have a chance to do that. She sent it off to a few people who all were like, I like this. I like this. was the sample chapter was, I'll tell you which one it was for anyone who's interested. It was chapter five, the valley understanding weakness. That's the one that I sent as the sample. Long story short, several... months and process went past where she actually then said to me, I'm going to take this to a internal sales pitch meeting. I'm going to take it to my team and I'm going to present it as a pitch, which I could not believe had happened. And then It's August of 2024, I had a phone call saying, I'm phoning you because this is the best bit of my job. We would love to offer you a publishing contract. And I remember that really clearly. It was the end of a working day, sunny day. I'm standing in the garden. Laura, my EA is actually filming me because she can see me hopping about the garden and think something's happening. And that was the beginning of then some very hard work to get it ready and to write a first draft, write a second draft, write a third draft with a brilliant, I must say, my editing team, amazing. Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Incredible, what an incredible story. You know, it's the dream for so many people who write
Hannah Miller: Mmm, I know.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and so incredible that you were able to make that happen. And then of course the book launched And I was on the pre-ordering list. was
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: excited to receive my copy and... And it felt really appropriate for it to land when it did because, you know, often as we get towards the end of one year, we reflect and we think about what we want to make the
Hannah Miller: Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: next year look like. And so, you know, it was a really, really good time for me to sit and read
Hannah Miller: Yeah,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: the book.
Hannah Miller: it's a good New Year book, definitely. Can I tell you something exciting? Nobody
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, to refocus. Yes.
Hannah Miller: knows this yet, but by the time this goes out, if you go to Waterstones or Amazon online or anywhere where it is being sold, they've just released the paperback cover. So if you go and have a look and click on paperback, you will see
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Oooh!
Hannah Miller: the image of what the paperback looks like. It's coming out in December.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: my goodness, that is exciting. Hot off the press. Ooh, so the paperback will be available in December. Perfect. With a different front cover.
Hannah Miller: That's brand new news to me. Yeah, literally. Yeah, and it's a different front cover. So if people want to collect, yeah, it's lovely actually. I would love to know your thoughts when you have a look after. Love you to tell me what you think.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I will have a look. Yeah. well, that's exciting. And if anyone's listening, you'll all be clicking to have a look now, won't you? And thinking about your Christmas presents for your loved ones.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, please do. Absolutely.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So when you were thinking about this book, you will have had an audience in mind and you
Hannah Miller: Mm. Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: will have had an objective in mind. What can we expect to experience from reading your book?
Hannah Miller: Yeah, great question. So my audience was, it's actually quite a broad audience, but the person who I was writing it for is probably a woman who is in the middle of her life and she has people depending on her and wants to live a life that has a sense of meaning to it that is more than just, She's not a boss babe. That's how I would describe it. She's not somebody who wants to just, I want to earn as much money as I can in any way I can. She's actually somebody who is thinking about, have had lots of different priorities in my life and it's time for something new for me for whatever reason that is occurring. And it's important for me that... Whatever sector I'm in, whatever sphere I work in, it needs to feel good. It needs to feel right and that's why I chose the word purpose rather than it just being about career. So it's more holistic than that and obviously you know that you've read it. Although people are often thinking about work, I'm trying to present the idea that it's about more than just work and it's about our whole lives. yeah, work is a brilliant vehicle, but it's not the only one, right? So the
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: person I'm speaking to is somebody who wants that little bit more. I remember a conversation with a client where he said to me, his wife was working for one of the big five accountancy firms and she's got a very senior job there. And she said to him, she said, I feel like what I'm doing is just making this is this is her reflection I just felt like I'm making wealthier people more wealthy and I can't do this forever and although she had a great job and there a lot of things she liked about it there was this itch that she wanted to scratch and
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: she knew at the right time she wanted to go there and that is not to decry any of those environments and actually people can very much find their sense of purpose in them I'm not saying that but the person I'm speaking to is longing for it to be a bit more about the whole of their life. Interestingly
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm. Mm.
Hannah Miller: There's a girl I know who's a bit of a YouTuber called Lola and she's been YouTubing reading this book and she's only 20 and so it's had a younger audience than I anticipated because I actually think there are many young adults who are already much more purpose-focused because that generation are. So they are thinking about... meaning purpose, what's the value in this, what would I do with this life and how do I want to do that. Secondly, I want to say one other thing that's really important is that I don't want to be considered like one of these purpose peddlers that they live these perfect lives and they've got a huge amount of influence themselves. and they're suggesting what purpose might look like. This was aimed at the everyday person, and I mean that in a really positive way, the everyday extraordinary people. who are making extraordinary difference to the people that they encounter, whether that's two people, 10 people, 2,000 people. And so I was aiming it at this idea of purpose shouldn't be elusive, it should be something that's attainable to the me's of the world who are trying to juggle the normalities of life whilst also wanting to do things that feel like they contribute. and it's absolutely not a book for women, it's totally a book for men too, but I am aware that more women will read this, just for the,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Absolutely. Yeah.
Hannah Miller: it's written by a woman and I think that self
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: directs it that direction. But more than anything, I wanted it to be very down to earth, very practical, very doable, and trying to help people, because a lot of the women I work with want to be perfect or want things to be perfect and are worried about things not working out. And I just think we have to collect data in order to see. You
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: you
Hannah Miller: might do something that doesn't work out. I've done 101 million things that haven't worked out, but you get data from that that helps you make better decisions. And I think I'm trying to sort of depressurise the subject into perfection or a destination and more of it being around an evolving learning process, really.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, I love that about the book. It gives you permission to
Hannah Miller: Hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: try and fail.
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: that's, it's nice to have that. Sometimes we just need somebody like essentially you're the voice in the ear that's saying, it's all right, it's okay.
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: It doesn't all have to be shiny. You don't have to live in Dubai and you don't need to drive a Ferrari to find purpose in your life. And that's
Hannah Miller: Yeah, for sure. sure.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: nice because it goes against a lot of what we get from social media.
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: which is all about getting up at 5 a.m., doing half an hour of journaling, followed by meditation, some Tai Chi, then go to the gym, then come back and fiercely work for eight hours and make 20,000 pounds every single day. And I look
Hannah Miller: Yeah, I know.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: at that world and I go, what? I'm never
Hannah Miller: Bye-bye.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: gonna be that person. How am I supposed to survive in a world where you have to be up at five to journal? I know.
Hannah Miller: I know I actually did a blog the other day on optimisation and the fact that it's quite this constant measuring of everything and optimising every moment is actually quite anxiety inducing because you just and I want to be efficient and I want to use my day as well but I can feel myself starting to feel like I can't do all of that. I don't know how anyone with a without a great deal of help can actually do those number of things in the morning and set themselves up to work in this way. is, what I then said about is that we're talking about privilege rather than we're talking about purpose. So I mean, I'm about to get on my soapbox, but I have a huge amount of
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: love it. Get on it.
Hannah Miller: privilege. There's so many, and some of this I just want to say check your privilege, you because you are really talking about your privilege enabling you. So how do we enable people? This book should be able to be accessed by somebody who's got... way less privilege and opportunity because otherwise purpose isn't a real concept if it's only available to people who have huge amount of resource and freedom of time, it's not really purpose at all is it? It's privilege. So I'm not saying everyone can have everything they want because I also don't think that's true. But I do think that purpose is available to somebody that may not have a village around them and may not have the freedom to leave their job and may not have the freedom to make some of the choices that other people are. But that doesn't mean that they can't shift the needle and things can't get better.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah. So let me tell you, those of you who are listening and wondering about whether this book might be something you would find some benefit from, that the biggest takeaway I took from this was, as I said before, feeling as if I was being given permission just to not stress about all of this stuff
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and to feel a sense of contentment because what I discovered in the process was that I was doing a lot of the things that I should be doing. And there were, but there was definitely
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: some stuff that was noisy and distracting and not adding any value to my life. And through the process of the purpose pursuit, the activities that you go through in the reflections and the thoughts that you have on that, it gives you permission. You feel a sense of contentment. It's like a mind massage. It's just like, relax. So yes, buy it. And if you don't want the hardback book and you want to wait for the paperback, it's coming out in December.
Hannah Miller: It's coming, I thought of something
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Brilliant.
Hannah Miller: that I didn't say before about the writing process that might be useful for your audience actually because they are writers, a lot of them. Two little things, one that happened that was a disaster and one that was a really good tip from my editors. And I had this in my head all the time. When I started writing the book, the editor said to me, substance, substance, substance. And so that
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Hmm.
Hannah Miller: was in my head. all the way through writing. Is this fluff or is this substance? And so I did a lot of reading around the subject to be able to make sure there was substance from other people within the book. And then obviously if you buy the book, you'll know that every chapter is full of the references in the back. And that's the bit that went wrong is that I remember a really dark day where I discovered that I had lost the references for one of my chapters. If people understand, if they go and look at the references, they'll understand that that actually was hideous. mean, the references were all sorts of bizarre articles and connections to website addresses and everything. And I remember feeling so sick that I was going to have to find them all again. And I took myself to a coffee shop for the day. and just thought I've got to attack this beast and I can't move on until I've done it and just sat there and Google history was quite helpful and but I had completely overwritten my page of the references without realizing I'd
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Go.
Hannah Miller: done it. So I just want to say those things happen like you will have a moment
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mmm.
Hannah Miller: however good you are with Google docking and drafts and so on. I still managed to do that. And my friend who'd written a book before, said, even though they're there in the cloud, said, I send myself emails with everything on, so I've got a different place. because she had an awful experience happened to her in one of her earlier books. So I got a bit neurotic with having emails I'm sending to myself with like text on. So I was like, I've got this strange backup system. I've got my Google Docs. And then obviously as they're edited, you then have to make new versions of that. that was quite a... a very dark moment, but also this, I'd give people this, if you're writing a non-fiction, that little phrase, substance, substance, substance, was so helpful to me in every chapter I was writing, every paragraph I was writing, is like, so what? Like, why am I saying this? To avoid this fluff that could come in. And I do think that
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: sometimes you can feel like you're reading a book that had got fluff, and I'm not suggesting my book is the best in the world, but that was a real sort of... I kept having that as a benchmark as I was writing. So what?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mm.
Hannah Miller: Substance, substance, substance. So that's my encouragement to somebody writing a non-fiction. Keep thinking about why you're saying it, what's the point of what you're saying, and how does it relate back to your actual point. My editors would keep writing in the margin, but what does this mean about purpose? So they'd encourage me to be as explicit as possible about why are you saying what you're saying and why is this in the book? And that was very, very helpful.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Such a massive learning curve, isn't it? Translating
Hannah Miller: Yes, huge!
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: what you do. So you're an extrovert, I'm an extrovert. We speak to think. So
Hannah Miller: Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: speaking is our method, if you like, and you're having to put it on a page. And it's a different way of communicating. And yes, you're good at structure and you were an English teacher, so you're good at English. But making something that's gonna really connect with people in a book form. huge learning curve. Question, now
Hannah Miller: Mmm. Mmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: that you've learned all of this, are you going to write another one?
Hannah Miller: it's a great question. Honestly, for the last while, I felt so personally drained because of having to keep going in a very difficult time that it's been really difficult for me to think about what's next. So I have actually been experiencing some of the stuff that I talk about in the book and I felt like I've been in quite a difficult season myself, which I'm just beginning to emerge from. And... First of all, never say never. Yeah, I think I would do it again. I would do it again. I think I would.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I predict that when you're on holiday in the same place again,
Hannah Miller: Yes! Good happen.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: you're gonna wake up one morning and go, I've just had a brilliant idea for my next.
Hannah Miller: I do feel ready to begin to think about that again.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: I haven't had, it's an interesting one that again, this is a side point, but there'll be people listening who are trying to write in really difficult seasons of their life. And I think the creative process, whether it's a fiction or a non-fiction, it's a creative process. It is quite exhausting, especially when you're already having to pull on your reserves because you're in not the most easy period of your life. And last year was probably like top offers, hardest 12 months ever. So
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: I'm needed to now recuperate a bit because I couldn't shift the deadlines. I was being published, so I had deadlines to meet and I couldn't push back. I didn't want to have a party when the book came out and didn't want to do the whole launch thing, but... because mom had just died six weeks ago,
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: but I could literally hear her in my head saying, don't you dare not do this launch, you know, don't
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: you dare. So we dug in and we have to dig in sometimes. But then after that, I have felt like a bit depleted. So thinking creatively has not really been on my capacity, but I do feel like the signs of that coming back. So that's just being honest. And I think we all have those. years that are easier and years that are amazing and full of goodness and celebration and years that just tear us really.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, for sure. It's absolutely true. you know, I'm signed up to your newsletter and I follow your content on LinkedIn and I love your self-reflections and how authentically vulnerable you can be sometimes. You'll be like, everything's a bit shit.
Hannah Miller: Yes! And I also don't want to sound like I'm not abundantly grateful because there's so many things that are amazing but yeah it's not been easy.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I know, but you know that attitude of gratitude, I know a lot of people go, attitude of gratitude is a little bit frou frou, blah, blah, blah, it's a bit woo,
Hannah Miller: Mm, mm, mm, mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: but I have, my life changed exponentially when I moved into a mindset of gratitude for what I do have rather than
Hannah Miller: Yeah, that's right.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: pitying myself for the things that I felt I didn't. And everything shifted when I made that
Hannah Miller: Agreed. I agree.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: change in my mindset.
Hannah Miller: And it's a real balance as well, isn't it? I mean, this is slightly off-topic, but it is a balance between remaining grateful and positive and hopeful. But then what I don't wanna then do is not acknowledge this is also really hard right now. And I think what we struggle with as humans sometimes is that more than one thing can be true at the same time. you
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yes, that's right.
Hannah Miller: can be, my son's getting married in a month. So I'm celebrating that.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I can't believe you've got a son old enough to get married! You must have started young, Hannah.
Hannah Miller: I can't. I can't. I can't. What's he... I did start young, but he's also... He's 23 and I'm so excited for him. She's wonderful.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: It's so nice, it's so exciting.
Hannah Miller: She's so wonderful. But that's happening and obviously there'll be a little bit of me that's... My mum isn't here. And those two things
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: can be true. Like I can be beyond delighted, but also have some sorrow. And I think we sometimes feel like we have to be in one camp or another and... Walking alongside both of those things is really important to try and be able to do. Be abundantly grateful, but be like, do you know what, that's also really sad. And that's going on at the same time as this wonderful thing. The book came out at a time when I was also very excited to see this in, you know, to hold it in my hands, to also think the very person that's probably had the most impact on me ever picking up a pen isn't gonna ever hold it in her hands. And that's the reality. So if anyone here is, you know, listening, be encouraged that you can actually do really hard things in really difficult seasons but you do also need to put some stuff back in the tank after.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Thank you. So I guess it would be remiss of me not to ask you this next question, which is, have you found your true purpose and
Hannah Miller: Cool.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: If so, what is it?
Hannah Miller: That is a great question. somebody else asked me that the other day. One of the activities in the book is to try and encourage people to write their own sense of a purpose statement. And I went through that process myself for doing the book. And the idea behind a purpose statement is that, it might evolve, but actually that the statement is a little bit less about the thing you're doing right now and more about the person you are and what you are going to contribute, whether that is brand new in the office, retiring, becoming a parent, becoming a grandparent, whatever iteration you can think of about life. And the idea is that some of those things will stand the test of time. So for me, I think I've got a good idea of the things that I contribute and bring, and I am open to the vehicle being different. I feel one of my main purpose, I think, is to help people feel more encouraged and a little bit better after an interaction than before. think that's one of the things that I'm made to do is to make someone feel more value and worth in themselves than they did beforehand. And so whether I am working in the local coffee shop or whether I am speaking at a workshop or meeting someone who's sitting next to me on an aeroplane, can I do that in those environments? Can I bring that?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So you've left a couple of legacies already and you you've still got years of life left. You've got three children and you've now got one book at least out in the world which will continue beyond you. And I think legacy is something that is often a conversation that sits quite near to purpose. Do you ever have those conversations with your clients when you're talking about purpose?
Hannah Miller: Yeah, that's such a good point. And legacies is a big word, isn't it? Legacy. And it's.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Huge.
Hannah Miller: There's a book called The Second Mountain First Mountain is very much about building your life and the things that you might need or want for yourself. And Second Mountain is when you start to hit this point where you do begin to think about legacy or you think about beyond what I'm building for myself. And the interesting concept of The Second Mountain book is that you could be quite young and reach Second Mountain and you could also never reach Second Mountain because you stay in first mountain behaviours and what's quite interesting is there are some people who were in their 50s who are still very first mountain in their attitude and you could meet a 20 year old who's quite second mountain. Anyway second mountain is something that I think is about thinking about legacy It's really funny you mention it. I've been testing that word out a bit recently in my conversations and with my husband and thinking about, I in quite the right vehicle for my legacy work? I'm not sure I am. And that's the honest truth. I do think I'm at working purpose, but I don't know whether I'm quite on my day to day, not the book, because I do think that is a legacy piece. You're right, they are.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: I don't know whether in my day to day I'm quite working out what's my legacy work yet. And so that's the question I'm sitting with.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Well, that's nice. You've still got some work. I quite like it when we know that we've still got work to do on ourselves because I think that we
Hannah Miller: Absolutely.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: learn until the day we breathe our last and since maybe
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: that's what happens next. I guess I'm older than you and I think that I'm now 56. So, you know,
Hannah Miller: Mm-hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: retirement is 10 years away or something like that. And I coach a lot of people who are at exec level. So they're
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: moving towards the ends of their careers. And we have quite a lot of conversations about. purpose and about legacy and I find that we as we get older start to really think about what was the point of me and what am I leaving behind that's of any value? What's the point of me?
Hannah Miller: Yes, that's right. Yes. And it can also start to get jumbled up with actually feelings, and I don't mean this in a heavy way, but also feelings of regret, like what was the point of some of this stuff? Like what, as in the things I've done. Also, The Top Five Regrets of the Dying is a really interesting book because again, that's like, do we approach those legacy pieces now so we don't have to those conversations in our 80s?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So many people might... measure the success of an author by the reviews. And by the way, even though Hannah may not want to say this because she might feel like she's being a bit braggy, every single one of her reviews is a five star review, just saying on Amazon.
Hannah Miller: there's one on Waterstones that says, this is so funny, it says, nothing new here.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Well, you know what? One of my author guests on the podcast said to me, until you've had a bad review, you're not a successful author. Because if you've
Hannah Miller: Yeah, it's true.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: sold a book to somebody and they didn't really like it, they've still paid for it.
Hannah Miller: that's true. That is true.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I learned recently that for every book sold, it is read at least four times because one book really seldom stays in the hands of one person. So you may have sold, let's say you sold a thousand books, you've probably
Hannah Miller: Interesting! That's so true! Yes! Yeah!
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: hit 4,000 readers. Isn't that an amazing point?
Hannah Miller: That's a really good point.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: There's so many ways. So there's lots of different measures of success. So I suppose
Hannah Miller: Yes.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: my question for you now has to be, what does success as an author mean to you? And has it
Hannah Miller: Mm. Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: changed since the beginning of this journey?
Hannah Miller: All of that is a really good point. I talk about measures of success a lot because I think it's good to be ambitious and there is nothing wrong with saying I'd love to write a book that's going to make the charts, right? I don't think there's anything wrong with that ambition, but it's not fully in your control. That's the problem. So the problem with some of those measures are you cannot, unless you're going to buy the book yourself a million times, you cannot orchestrate that result entirely. You can write a good work, you can get it in the right people's hands, but there is also an element of luck in all of our lives. A bit like me having that conversation with the woman. I'm fully aware that there was a right time, right place, right person, right connection, good
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah.
Hannah Miller: writing. I feel like I wrote it well, but there was a lot of other things that helped me, with my book, a measure of success for me is that I was going to put my heart and soul into going through the process and giving it the best I could. Time constraints and everything, you know, being... and when I was given feedback I would improve and do what I can and that we would do our best to talk about the book and get it out there within the constraints of being a tiny little me and not having, don't have a, even though I'm published, don't, unless you are Richard Osment. There isn't any budget for you. That is just the truth, right? So I would want to just dispel that myth that you don't have a budget for that kind of thing. They might help you get a door open, but really, I've pushed that myself.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, marketing is a topic that comes up all the time on this podcast because
Hannah Miller: Mmm, yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: a lot of people that I speak to are introverts, but they know that one of the parts of their
Hannah Miller: really hard.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: job, whether they're traditionally published or not, you know, I now understand that even trad published authors have to do a lot of marketing. And so, you know, it's TikTok, it's Instagram, it's book
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: fairs, it's book shops, it's whatever you can do to generate the sales and for a lot of us that's quite a challenge.
Hannah Miller: and you've probably got another job, right?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: And most of us have got a different job, a full-time job and this
Hannah Miller: Yes. Yes.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: is our passion project. So for a lot of people it's a passion project, not a money maker. And for some of us it actually costs money. So
Hannah Miller: Mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: if you self-publish you can expect to lay out anything from a thousand to two thousand five hundred pounds just to get your
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: book on the on the shelves in the first place. And then your next job is to try and at least recoup that. And as time goes on, the expenses drop because you don't need to buy as much of the software and all that kind of stuff. But
Hannah Miller: Close.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: it has to be your measure of success. You're so right. Has to be about something more than how many books you've sold or how many stars you're
Hannah Miller: Mm, mm, mm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: getting on your reviews. And I think, you know, one of the things I would say to you, having read your book, and lent it to a friend who was struggling who also found it incredibly helpful is this. We are whole human beings with whole lives and you have contributed something really valuable in our lives through your book. That, if that's not success, I don't know what
Hannah Miller: Hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: is. And you can times that by the number of people that have read it, not just bought it, which may be a
Hannah Miller: Yeah, that's...
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: different figure.
Hannah Miller: And that is a lovely thought and to think that that could make a difference. And when I've had people who I've worked with, sometimes I get an email or a direct message on socials and they say, I read your book and I've just got this job or this has happened. Those for me are some of the best bits of feedback that I can possibly get, absolutely. Those are the bits that really do stand the test of time. Yeah, don't get me wrong, would be amazing if it gained the kind attraction that people would love to see their work get but actually nothing beats somebody's life being moved and you could sell a lot of books and also get a lot of negativity. mean there's books out there that are divisive and you have to deal with a lot of like
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yes, that's true. Yeah.
Hannah Miller: one-star, five-star kind of approaches and I'm not sure I'm cut out for that so maybe it's better I'm writing that.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: You know, no, you do have to leave, you do leave yourself vulnerable, don't you? But you know, you and I have both said that we love Pride and Prejudice. Jane Austen wrote Pride and Prejudice
Hannah Miller: Yes. Yes.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: a long time ago. She's been dead a long time. And her books,
Hannah Miller: she has.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: still, are still out there and people are still enjoying them. And she's influenced me to be a writer and to write romance where classes clash and...
Hannah Miller: Mm-hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: misunderstandings are plenty and she knows nothing about it and yet she has to be one of the world's most successful authors so
Hannah Miller: so true. It's so true.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and she never got a review on Amazon or Goodreads.
Hannah Miller: No, no, that's right. And you have plenty, there are plenty artists who never got the claim for their art, did they, until they passed? And literally, mean, at least she did get people reading her books. There are plenty artists who didn't sell a thing until they died, and they died paupers, but their work has gone
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: That's so true. I know.
Hannah Miller: on to bless the world, hundreds of years beyond. So you're right, those things, we get caught up sometimes into metrics that on, There's nothing wrong with that, but if they drive it, can kill it a little bit and kill the whole process.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, yes. So let's applaud ourselves. Hurrah. Only 3 %
Hannah Miller: Yes, let's not go there.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: of people who decide they're gonna write a book actually finish it and get it published. 3 % of people
Hannah Miller: Wow, really interesting.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: who want to write. That's not 3 % of the population. It's 3 % of people who
Hannah Miller: No, that's interesting.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: start. So yes, applaud, applaud, applaud. We've done a good job.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, yeah, that's good. I didn't know that. That is it. I'm gonna take that away and be proud.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah, you should. You absolutely should. So as we reach the end of our conversation, which I've loved, by the way, thank you. I
Hannah Miller: Thank you.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: find talking to you very inspiring every single time. I like to finish with what I call my 10 in 10 and my 10 in
Hannah Miller: Mm-hmm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: 10 is where I ask you to take off your author hat and put on your reader hat and
Hannah Miller: Okay. Okay.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: I'm going to give you 10 do you prefer this or that and you
Hannah Miller: Okay.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: have to answer as quickly as you can. Are you ready? All right, okay.
Hannah Miller: Love this. Great. Yeah. Love it.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: So thinking as a reader, do you prefer sweet or spicy?
Hannah Miller: sweet.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Fact or fiction?
Hannah Miller: fiction.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: cliffhanger or happily ever after.
Hannah Miller: flavor after.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: short or long chapters.
Hannah Miller: Ooh. probably short. Not sure.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: ebook? Okay. You're not sure? That's okay.
Hannah Miller: Am I allowed to say not sure for that one?
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: You're allowed. You're allowed. I'm really quite accommodating with the answerings.
Hannah Miller: Thank you, this kind of you.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: E-book or physical book?
Hannah Miller: my heart says physical, but I have become a Kindle devotee over the last couple of years and I actually really like it. I'm very late to adopting it and certain books I want physical. Would that be fair to say? I would want this as a physical book to be honest because of the nature of it. Although it is on Kindle.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I always, yeah, I always buy my non-fictions in physical book form, but I often
Hannah Miller: Yeah, I
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: read or listen to my fiction.
Hannah Miller: Same, same, exactly.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah. Series or standalone.
Hannah Miller: probably standalone but have just read a series. The whole of it, back to back. But I think I'm probably... Yes it was!
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Wasn't the Seven Sisters, was it? Isn't that the best series ever? I might've, I don't know, but honestly, absolutely, so did I. Brilliant,
Hannah Miller: Did you recommend it to me? Did you recommend it to me? Several people did, just read them all. I really enjoyed the Atlas one as well, really enjoyed that one.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: if you're listening to us waffle, yeah, Lucinda Riley, the Seven Sisters series, absolutely brilliant. Yeah, so good.
Hannah Miller: Yeah, I did really enjoy that. Yeah, but normally I'm a standalone.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Okay, dog-eared or pristine?
Hannah Miller: Dog eared husband is pristine and I'm dog eared Not a great combo It's not a
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: was talking about books, not people, but you know, whatever.
Hannah Miller: great combination of sharing books because he's like, well Yeah, no dog it yeah dog it in the bath and everything. Yeah
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Stop bending my buck. Bed... nice. Yeah bedtime or any time.
Hannah Miller: Anytime but bedtime is a rhythm.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Mmm. One at a time or multiple choice.
Hannah Miller: I tend to have a non-fiction on the go, I have a Kindle book on the go for bed and I always have an audiobook on the go.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Literally exactly the same. I wonder how many people are like that. Like when
Hannah Miller: Yeah.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: you're ironing, walking the dog or driving audio, Kindle for bedtime and physical
Hannah Miller: gosh, yeah. Love it. Yeah. And then a non-fiction which is separate.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: book for self-development. Love that. Last question.
Hannah Miller: Totally, that's what I do. Can I just say my husband's bedside table, I've had to take them off because it was actually absurd, about 17 books on top of one another on his bedside. I'm like, that is not mainly non-fiction or he reads theology and philosophy and I'm like this is absurd. I've hidden them. like read some of these one at a time. Sorry. I've, I've, it's ridiculous. I know.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: You've had to control his reading. bless. That's amazing, I mean, I think we can all relate to the to be read pile scenario, but not usually literally on your bedside table. It's a health and safety issue apart from anything else.
Hannah Miller: definitely but on your bedside! No, sorry the questions. Exactly and it's ugly.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: and a dust magnet but we digress last question
Hannah Miller: It is, all those things. Sorry. Yes.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: bookmark or fold the corner
Hannah Miller: I've got a lovely couple of bookmarks that have been given to me so bookmark but if I don't have a bookmark I tend to not even I tend to just forget to even fold the corner and then just have to spend eight years trying to find where it was but I would fold the corner 100 %
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Yeah. Hannah Miller, author of The Purpose Pursuit. It has been every inch the joy I knew it would be to spend this time talking to you. Thank
Hannah Miller: thank you.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: you so much for joining the Mrs. Right podcast.
Hannah Miller: I have loved being on. a joy to talk about writing and reading with you. Thank you so much.
Bronte Bennett - Author/Host: Thank you. So for those of you who are interested in purchasing a copy of The Purpose Pursuit, you will find access to Hannah, her website, you can sign up for her emails, you can find the book in various places, all the links are in the show notes. And for now, I'm going to say a goodbye from me and a goodbye from Hannah. Bye bye.
Hannah Miller: Bye. Bye.
