Manhunter (1986)

I quit, remember. If I

Speaker 1: really didn't need you to come back, I wouldn't ask. This guy, we don't even have motive. None of us have shit. And we know it. We have a better chance to get him fast.

Speaker 2: I've heard officers referring to this killer as the tooth fairy. What did the killer do with them after they were dead?

Speaker 3: Killing him felt so good in my shooting.

Speaker 1: So how does this guy compare with Lecter? What does he do to him? How's he doing? How's he doing, Will? I want you to help me, Dr. Lecter. And screw Tooth Fairy's gonna go on until we get smart or we get lucky. It won't stop.

us. He butchers whole families to pursue trivial fantasy. Psychologists call him a psychopath. They don't know what else to call him. The It's uh Chinese character. Considered lucky sign in gambling.

Same character appears on a mashag piece. I'm sick of you crazy sons of bitches. You got something to say, say it. This killing... It's gotta stop. Don't!

Don't move! For me, you're a slug in the sun. You were privy to a great becoming and you recognized nothing. You're an aunt in the afterbirth.

I gave it up. So you showed up with pictures of two dead families, knowing goddamn well that I'd imagine families three, four, five, and six. You and the others. You owe me uh stop. This is well. here I am Um so um so welcome to the five, baby.

Speaker 3: Thanks, man. Well thank you for coming on. It's the first time you've been able to come on and talk movies with us. Yes, and a long time. Hopefully it'll last, but we we we share like a lot of uh like we we sure uh we're fans of a lot of c uh summer movies and uh and uh I think our tickets were wide, so yeah. Well, I mean, I I I still go back to like it's like the first time I hear it, right?

Yeah. I still think that you're older than me, but you're just two weeks older than me. I was just like, you're not what it is. We're literally just the same age. Um which probably explains some of the stuff and that we'll we'll get into as we go through this um this particular pod and this um film, but let's talk about the the movie we have for today.

Um we have uh Manhunter. This is a 1986 film. Came out um August 15th, 1986. So we're coming up on the 40th anniversary. We're for and um one of the things I like to do just to set the stage is give some of the technical details and then get into like sort of the nitty-gritty of this film. But for starters, what was your relationship with this film? Like when did you arrive upon it? Was it post the Anthony uh Hopkins sort of?

Speaker 4: Yeah, it was it was post I heard about Songs of Lambs growing up. But of course, never really I was not really up to see it because I heard it was so extreme, um, which now it feels kind of tame. But Except for Miggs. Huh?

Speaker 3: Except for Migs, and he just throws it at Clarino. That's not necessarily.

Speaker 4: I thought that's not the hope of the still that's still kind of gets me. Ah, oh my god. Dodge shit like the Matrix, yeah. But like um But I saw I thought I saw a Manhunter like probably rerun or on TV somewhere. Yeah.

Because I've seen a lot of movies from the 80s, like, as I, You know, we're too young to see him, we're we're kids, little kids when we grow up and then you see the reruns on TV. Yeah, probably someone like cable somewhere. Yeah. And I was just like, what is this? Because it was so hypnotic with the music. And it, you know, seeing I saw the Anthony Hopkins uh Lecter, then to see like Brian Cox, like a younger Brian Cox. I think he's like is like a Welshman. Yeah. Um Hawkins is like uh I think I they for I forget what parts of of the island they're from, UK.

Because Hoppy no Hawkins is is from Wales. I believe so, yeah. And um Brian Cox, I thought I forget what. I think he's Scottish. I think he's Scottish, yeah. Which is it just has they have different um cadences and different um intonations. But it was it was still a powerful performance. I was like, wow.

Speaker 3: So I I came across it probably years and years and years removed after seeing all of the high uh the later films. Um and we probably will talk about one of them because this is the first on uh camera or film, TV, what have you, interpretation of Lecter and these sort of characters. Um this ranks pretty pretty high for me for a few different reasons. Um and we'll go back into that a little bit later, but at least want to tease it with a little bit of that that that reputation of it because it's kind of when you come across it, like when uh when it comes to like Silence of the Lambs, which was probably the first thing I saw, but I saw this in high school. And uh I just remember the book and the cover and the butterfly and all of that. That's like this is a lot. Yeah, and it was a big big book and so on. So here's some of the the the technical details of the film. So I like to look at an aggregate, right? You know, there's a cross between you have these cult classics of like, yeah, this movie did really well, maybe, or this movie was well received or was very popular.

So I'm gonna talk about these three points. I like to use IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, and Letterboxed. Letterbox for the snobs.

I think you get the real thing for the letterbox. Sometimes, you know, Rotten Tomatoes has already been improved. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But um, here's the thing. You got a 7.2 out of 10 from IMDB.com. You got a 90% fresh from Rotten Tomatoes.

Okay. And you have a 3.9 from uh five for which is about what a 78 out of um for Letterboxd. So it's it's a it's a good movie.

It's in that sort of you know, four out of five sort of category if you do that rough average. Yeah. So the year that this came out was 1986. And we talked a little bit before uh we got together today of the movies that were in the zone around this time that were either in theaters or coming out around this like summer 86. So these are the movies that were released this year, and this is the movie it went up against. Jesus. So the movies released this year include Aliens.

Oh God. Top Gun. Hell yeah.

First Beautiful's Day Off. Oh God. Uh Karate Kid Part 2. Damn. And The Fly. Oh, damn. And what did it come out against? You might be wondering. What? The Fly. Oof. It's like you came out against this. Damn.

Speaker 4: Was that Cronenberg? Yes.

Speaker 3: Heavy Cronenberg. There's a review that I did where I asked my buddy Isaiah for this podcast. I was like, so when Seth Brundle is like falling apart, yeah, and he goes into the medicine cabinet. Is that his penis? And he's like, that is his penis that falls off. That's in the medicine gathering.

Speaker 4: I couldn't, I mean, I watched it, and it was just like, I just like I kind of like just like why? Why I it was almost like torturous to watch it, but I had to love it.

Speaker 3: I saw that movie very young. So Same here. Too young, one might say.

Speaker 4: I remember I remember when he took like the fly took the uh the shotgun, which he was holding, and put it to his head, like you know. And I was like, ugh, yeah.

Speaker 3: The thing that always sticks out to me is when he breaks the guy's arm in the uh I was like, nope.

Speaker 4: Nope. I was I it was good effect, very good effect. But just yeah. So it's moving magic right there, yeah. 100%. Yeah.

Speaker 3: So here's the here's the budget. Now, I don't know where that's adjusted for. The budget for this film was between 14 and 15 milli. Oh, wow. But it's it's 40 years ago. So Yeah. now here's the sad news.

Made 8.6 million. Damn. That's that's considered a net bomb territory. Yes. Um Now, the taglines for this. Now, this is post uh I think the Red Dragon movie with me in Red Dragon uh book by Thomas Harris, which is all of this is sort of based off of. That's a 1981 release. So this is a film that came out five years after. So movies used to be made over a longer period of time. Yeah. Getting the rights, it's not like special effects and anything, but movie making took a little while. And as we know with our guy with uh Michael Mann, the director of this film, he he likes to take his time. Yeah. Um, so this movie uh came out in 86, so five years after the book came out, and um so here's the taglines for it. I like to look at the taglines.

Yeah. Hannibal Lecter's Legacy of Evil Begins here is the is the reissue tagline. So when they re-released it, this is the tagline.

Now, here's some of the original taglines from when the movie first came out in 86. Yeah. You know, when you do a reissue, it's just like you have the fanfare, if not baggage, right? Of the subsequent stuff. We now have all the Anthony Hopkins stuff. Yeah. And then when they do the reissue, you're like, fuck it's Anthony Hopkins. So here's the tagline. You tell me if this is good. Yeah. Enter the mind of a serial killer. You may never come back. For 86.

Speaker 4: Yeah, 86, you're right.

Speaker 3: Here's the second one. Will Graham has the mind of a psychopath. Thank God he's on the right side of the law.

Speaker 4: That's yeah, that's some 86 shit.

Speaker 3: And um, this is my favorite because it's in the movie. Uh it's just me and you. It's just you and me now. Yeah. remember

Speaker 4: I remember some lady comes up to him, like, she's like, what? What are you talking about? She's like, he's uh talking to himself, and uh that was like Yeah, there's no because there's another incident where he's looking through um photographs, like Murray scene photographs on a plane, yeah. He falls asleep, and then the stuff splays out, and then the shot. like a mother and her child.

Speaker 3: She's like, ah, mommy over the biggest.

Speaker 4: And the stewardess goes, Yeah, and then the guy behind him was like, look, what do you think? He's like, is that porn? It's just like, damn. Yeah, like people get murdered. But it was it's almost like uh kind of reminded me, it was almost a precursor to Russ Cole Detective.

Speaker 3: Um I I touch on that later. We'll get into that. We'll get into that. Um so we got this is where I'm gonna need your help. This is sort of the first thing. I like to give the synopsis of the film. Now, as I tell it, I need you after I get the full thing out. I need you to tell me whether or not this does justice to the movie, or it's just like I don't know if that's quite it.

Because sometimes, you know, you you get on there, especially in a world of AI, you're like, that's not what this movie's about at all. So here's a here's the um here's the review. I think I ripped this off of I forget where. Uh FBI criminal profiler, Will Graham, played by William Peterson, is called out of early retirement to assist on a serial murder case involving a killer known as the Tooth Fairy, played by Tom Noonan. Uh Graham enlists the help of imprisoned of imprisoned serial killer and cannibal, Dr. Hannibal Lecter, played by Brian Cox, who is the reason Graham took an early retirement.

Soon Graham, the FBI, and uh are entangled in a deadly game of cat and mouse between the Tooth Furry, Lecter, and an interfering journalist played by Stephen Lang, Manhunter. Is that accurate? Or yeah. It did It's pretty much pretty much what the movie is.

Speaker 4: Dead on. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: It's just like the like sometimes you know you look at a movie like that's not quite it. I don't know if that's this is directly what the movie is.

Speaker 4: But it does it doesn't sell how amazing like the art direction is. I mean, it's like a Starro movie. It draw, the art direction, I think it's like what's a Storaro was a cinematographer.

Um please tell us. Because I think I think that was his um for the cinematographer for uh for Heat as well. Um but there's a beauty to it that that Dante Spinoti. So Dante Spinoza, excuse me.

Um I guess start off from Spinoti. I know it was it was uh an Italian dude, but it was it was um yeah, it there was a there was a I think it he also shot um DC. I believe he also shot uh All the President's Men too, I think. Let's see. If I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 3: I think you're I think you're right. Watching that the other day. And uh Of course you were.

Speaker 4: And yeah, movie nerd. Um but yeah, it doesn't feel like just a serial killer movie. It feels something like something more. And I think that's because of the art direction and the music. And um there's music playing all through this, but it's it just kind of it's it's it's kind of synthienid, and it just kind of works.

Speaker 3: It it does. And um he also you're right, he he did he did heat. He had uh LA Confidential, which is another good movie.

Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great movie.

Speaker 3: And he he does go back to the well, unfortunately, he's involved with that uh he's involved with that red dragon, the one that Brett Ratner did. Ooh, which is basically just why did you remake Manhunter, but just not as good. Yeah, that's the thing.

Speaker 4: So here's Billy Peterson, or um, yeah, Bill Peterson, he's a there's something about the way he acts. It just like I mean, because him and um Flip Dye in LA, he's like one of my favorite. That's one of my favorite performances.

Speaker 3: It that's uh those two, because they're your part, yeah. You know, those two movies are very interesting. Yeah, young Willem Defoe in that. Yeah, yeah, young Willie. He's super young.

Yeah. And it works really well, but it is a sort of era of did this forecast, and technically he looks a thousand because his hair is what it is. Yeah, but then he's technically like 30 something. Yeah.

Speaker 4: It's just like he's like a young JP Fox is a young old nigga, yeah.

Speaker 3: And um, so let's see, let's see, let's see.

Speaker 4: Um but he uh he's got this swagger to him in in To Live and Die. Yeah. But there's a when it comes to him in Manor, I totally believe him.

Speaker 3: I totally believe He's a dude that feels like he is broken, and this comes up in the timing, because you know, it's a Michael Mann movie, as we we touched on it. He wrote and and and directed it. So just sort of I I think when you're writing something that's already a book, I think that's you're adapting it.

Speaker 4: But he also is interested in uh just serial killers from a I think a guy named Denon Dennis Wyn when Wallace. Okay, yeah, yeah. Um, who tried to sue the state to get a sort of procedure all done on him. Um And I think you know, in his profile, um Uncle Man was saying, I watched some interview with him saying like um somebody by talk about this this guy because he was a subject of like infinite abuse, the circular. And he talked to somebody saying, you know, as a child, uh my heart weeps for him, but as an adult, I'll blow the sick fuck out of his socks. I think that was a comment I was trying to use in the film too. Because as a child, he's he's not in control of what's done to him. Right.

But as an adult, he's fully control of who he becomes, you know, relatively speaking. Umide um, but yeah, I don't know, there's something like I mean also like I don't I don't know how profilers work, but it I can s when I watch Manor, I can see how like you you try to have to bring your mind in concert with the concert with this serial killer, yeah. This bad person and their thoughts, what they might think so you can predict their movements. I mean, then you start seeing the world from their point of view.

Speaker 3: It's a pattern recognition thing, and that's I think that's the question that's being played with a lot during it. And you know, I want to I want to go chronologically in this sort of way.

So I got a question. I got some questions and observations I want to get into before I'm going into some trivia. Unless you want to go with trivia first, because I got trivia. Uh no, go go. I'll So I'll go with the observations. Um see the the observations are gonna go. Um I guess that's a question, the first observation, because in and we were touching on it with uh William Peterson.

Like, does this set him up for what his nine late 90s, 2000s are gonna be? Because it's like you're the CSI guy, which is literally about investigating like killers. Like, that's your thing.

Speaker 4: I feel like that was a lesser the CSI stuff's a lesser version. It's it's easy though.

Speaker 3: But it it is, but in terms of his career trajectory, as far as like this is a known commodity of a guy we've seen, because I don't know anything else he's he's been in other than to live and die in LA since he has.

Speaker 4: I saw a TV movie called The Beast, which was about a giant squid uh attacking uh uh it was like basically a rip off of Jaws. Okay. Except it was a giant squid. I saw that back in the 90s.

Tentacles. Yeah, no, it was like fucking huge fucking, it was terrifying actually as a kid. And um I'm like I remember seeing it, I'm like, this guy just look about him. And I go and I got older, I'm like, wait a minute. Is that William Peterson?

Fucking William Peterson? You know, and it's like, but think of the land think of the landscape back then of opportunity guy or handed to you. And you know, if you weren't in that, like certain you weren't in certain movies, you just didn't exist, I guess.

But you just had to direct it direct to uh radio or TV movies or whatever. I mean acting gonna survive. So I don't I I get it, you know. Um but it's like I I think a guy of his talent was wasted. And he was also in one of your other movies.

What? He was in Thief. He was he played a modern, yeah, he played he played like a little bit part of Thief where So those his first three movies, by the way. Yeah Thief Live Dominically and Manhunter. Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3: Yeah, just it's just like David, here you go. And then he's later in Maholland Drive. Really? Yeah, in uh 96. But you know, pretty much like he had a 15 year career for CSI. I mean, I don't blame him. I mean, I'm just saying, like, you're the guy. Like when it when he disappeared in it, it's like show's not gonna be

Speaker 4: like Tom Johnson went to like uh Nash Bridges or whatever.

Speaker 3: Yeah, fuck Bridges. Let's not talk about that.

Speaker 4: That show is like talk about that show.

Speaker 4: Let's not talk about it. Yeah, yeah, I I agree.

Speaker 3: Um so I think this kind of sets up this career in a sense, because we were selling commodities. It's like, can this person do this in a way? Because you could argue with another, what is I think it's I think it's NCIS though, like the one that's in New Orleans. That's freaking Scott Bacchula, who's the lead of that. And what was he famous for? Like time jumping, uh, you know, quantum leap. So I do have a question though. We we talked about.

Speaker 4: Actually, sorry, it's okay. My um a girlfriend and I were watching um, I think her her mom was in town. Yeah, and we were watching this, like uh one of those CIA type CSI type shows.

So it was called CIA. I know that show. And it was like the dumbest shit I've ever seen. Like, it's like it was a the the main lead is this British guy. He's like, What the fuck is this British?

Because he's got a weird beard. Yeah. Yeah. I think he played Lucifer in some other show. That's a different dude, but I know you're talking about it. And it's like, and then they're they're dealing with people and whatever him and his team is like, and then I remember he announces to the to this person, like, we're the we're the CIA. I'm like, what the fuck is that's Tom Ellis you're referring to.

Speaker 3: Fuck says there. I'm who the like. It's not good. We're in DC. No one's gonna tell you, you know, there are probably signs.

Speaker 3: You know, that's a thing I like to do when I have these shows that come up, and it's just like, man, this show isn't good, and you find out like it's been on for 16 seasons. You're like, how?

Speaker 4: Because that's they're they're marketed to like people like my my my girlfriend's mom or like my mom or whatever. Yeah, like older like baby boomers who just want something safe.

Speaker 3: So this uh it's a connected show to this that I was thinking of was FBI. Oh, yeah, FBI. This is these old Dick Wolves.

Speaker 4: Dick Wolf, yeah, fuck Dick Wolf. I mean, CSI. He ruined Miami Vice, though.

Speaker 3: That's he he did. So this is the one I was thinking of, FBI, right? That came that launched in 2018. So that's been like eight years. God damn it, I hate it. It's just like how it's like, yo, are is it just hey, we're doing this.

This is just what it is now. Yeah, I'm gonna do a show on multiple networks, and it's gonna be rehashes just in different divisions. We got SVU, we got FBI, we got CIA. What is it like a default like a weird sort of

Speaker 4: I can see Law and Order ripped from the headlines? No, that's fine. I mean, I can I can I get that. But and then even SVU, riff the headlines again. Yeah, you know, but more fucked up. But it's like all I mean, I think Miami Vice took a darker tone. Well, what made Miami Vice so amazing, and while you and I still fucking talk about it, it's it's not just the it's it's the the hard hardness of like you have the you have Escobars, you have the fucking escapar, drug uh uh Miami days, but then you have the the art direction and the and the the fucking the cut the sumptuous color which draws you in.

Speaker 3: For for those who don't know, just for just for folks listening, just like the reason we're we're mentioning my Miami Vice is because this was happening concurrently to Michael Mann making this freaking movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like these were like Miami Vice was on for like this is season three of Miami Vice while he's making this movie.

Speaker 4: I think he left uh to do this movie, right? Yeah. And there are some people that are

Speaker 3: in it that are in Miami Vice. Right. Who's in uh Manhunter? Swite tech is the real estate agent.

Speaker 4: Oh yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, yeah, yeah. he's wearing the same fit. I was like, hold on, bro. The same Alabama accent. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: And then there's different like guest appearances of folks, and there is an episode. I think I, you know, because I want to throw this out. That'll just I'll before I go back into observation, I'll just do trivia. So Michael Talbot is who I'm talking about play Switech. Yeah, he appears in the film around minute 34.

He's a real estate agent named Gheehan, who uh shows Wolgram the house where the family was murdered. Yes, yes. Um, here's another connection later. Yeah. So you remember Silence of the Lambs. Yeah, there's a black uh orderly where Hannibal Lecter is at as Frankie Fassan, who is one of the police officers later in the movie.

Speaker 4: Oh shit, yeah, you're right. You're you're absolutely right. Because they're what they're looking, they're running they're running um the images of some some machine to pull up like the address the the these people. Yeah, And you see his mustache. And then him, he's also on The Wire, of course.

Speaker 3: He is, he's uh he's the I think the mayor or something later.

Speaker 4: No, he's the uh police commissioner, yeah. Police commissioner. He's also in the amazing show called Banshee. Oh, Banshee's with uh homeboy from Homelander, yeah. Um Anthony Star. Antie Star. That's one of my favorite shows, uh, Banshee. And he plays this this uh this ex-boxer, ex-criminal, yeah, uh bartender. So that was one of the best shows on TV. It was on Cinemax. It was amazing.

Speaker 3: But here's the last uh piece of trivia I want to throw out there, which makes this connection even a little bit deeper. Yeah, we're probably worth us we rewatching. There's an episode of Miami Vice that came out the same year as this film, yeah.

That's called uh Shadow in the Dark. And they were like, This is literally the plot of Manhunter. Oh, it's just like, okay, let's let's do it. Let's do it. There's a giant ball guy. It's just like, let's get it.

Speaker 4: But but and then also Tom Newton plays the fucking the fucking um dude in and heat that gives them the the bank job.

Speaker 3: He created internet How do you get this information. He just come through your man. He's can't grab it. He's had like a huge beard, he's in a wheelchair. He has a dagger's hat on. Yeah. I mean, but I love you know, but it's the it's funny, interesting, like, because man has these um these sayings super moving movie, you know, time is luck. Yeah, you know, uh uh Will Graham's wife says that to him, you know, time is luck, Will, you know. They're talking about like the relationship, and then it's like there's another line where the cops is like, you know, get clean shots, watch, watch backgrounds. What you know?

Speaker 3: So we talked about Will Graham. I'm gonna go into this. Yeah. What are your thoughts on Will Graham's job? And and and I say this from this perspective. You know, he's got crime scenes to deal with, yeah. He has videos of murder to look at. It's like When the guy first picks him up, right? Yeah, he's like, got a tape of your your uh I was just like, I'll go here first.

Speaker 4: But you see what Russ Cole came from. Like for true detective. You see that, I mean, you're you have to look at the darkest shit that humans do. It's gonna fuck you up.

Speaker 3: When we get to the backstory, because I think I like the way that it's rolled out, it's almost backwards. We're already at a set point. And we're like, okay, what happens? It has a mystery component to it.

Like, what happened to him that he retired, right? Yeah. So when you kind of get the lector thing, and you don't even get that you didn't uneasy from him, but when you get to Lecter, which is probably about minute 23 of the movie, I think, um, you later find out, and then you later see the scar that he was gutted as well. Which Because when the scene that uh that... I didn't notice that. when it's a scene where his wife comes there and I guess they have sex or something, he's like looking through the reflection. Yeah, there's a scar right here.

There's like a jig uh zigzag. Uh, dude. And then when he tells his son in the in the market when they're at the Surrey Wisdom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, he really got up in there.

Speaker 4: I mean, you think about Russ and uh True Detective and when he meets uh they go to Carcosa and the guy like guts him and picks him up while he's like fuck you can do that.

Speaker 3: You're a big guy, he picked somebody over tonight.

Speaker 4: Yeah, probably, but yeah, I don't know if I want to. You should. I you know DC, it's hard out here. DC is hard. It's funny because I I heard a I was at some party one time. I heard a guy talk about how he ordered we live in the berry farms and he ordered a bazooka in the mail. Jesus Christ. It's just fucking storage you hear. Like, how the f you get a bazooka? How do you order bazooka?

Speaker 3: You can there's a world there's a way. WWE.bazooka.com.

Speaker 4: Never mind.

Speaker 3: I it better be gum. Better come with a comic. Um so this is stupid. This is this is something that I thought was really, really funny. Yeah. Um it's two things that happen. So we get the cartoon character of the movie, and I think you know who I'm gonna call the cartoon character of this movie. Uh who's the most out of pocket character in this movie? Oh, yeah, the the um Freddie Lowndes. Freddie, yeah, Freddy Lowndes.

So we get Freddie Lowndes. He's wild. Yeah, he is. His like, he looks like a rooster. Yeah, he does.

Because the hair is super red, it's floofy. So there's a bit that I said to the to my to my to my to my girlfriend, um, in we were watching Batman 89 when uh Robert Wall and Michael Keaton are having like uh a tete tet. Yeah. And I was like, this motherfucker's having a fluff off because their fucking hair is so teased up and permed. His is on OD and it's thick. So you have that, and that character is later played by Philip C.

Moore Hoffman in Red Dragon. Oh. Right.

So we waste Philip C. Moffin in that later movie. And you know, then it's uh it's a lady that plays him in the Hannibal TV show, which is very good. Yeah. Um, so his accent is so crazy. Yeah, it's just like, hey, oh, I was like, what are you talking about, Freddie? As far as um Stephen Lang who's playing this character.

Yeah. And Stephen Lang, what about 17 years ago? He was in a big movie, a billion dollar movie. He's the villain in Avatar. Oh, that guy? That's Stephen Lang. It doesn't fucking look like that. Exactly. Holy shit. He's basically cable from X-Men now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was this fat, the guy with a flu.

Speaker 4: I heard the name of it, I'm like, I didn't put the f now he's like fucking. Exactly. And he was in, he was in uh Public Enemies. Uh what? He played the guy that that shot Dillinger in the end. Um damn that guy.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's that so there's a thing that happens, right? Yeah. When he's harassing him. He's harassing uh, he's harassing um Will Graham. Yeah.

Speaker 4: He fucking uh Rock Bob

Speaker 3: picks him up into a suit flex judo throw with no leverage. Yeah. I was like, how strong are you, Will? Because you just picked him up and he's outweighing you.

Speaker 4: Broke some he broke a car window with that.

Speaker 3: If you're the guy that owns that car, you're like, fuck this.

Speaker 4: You got a guy to do it. He's like, yo, I gotta fuck someone up. I'm not done my payments on that.

Speaker 3: So I I have a question. This falls into this lane of observations, because Will Graham's hair, he has three different hairstyles in this movie. And I know it's so it's set in the South, right?

Um, because the killings in Atlanta in Alabama, and Will lives in Florida. Yeah. So the humidity was killing his hair. Yeah, yeah. Because at one point it's floofy, like, meanwhile, Freddie Lowells is not it's nothing's happening to his. His is levitating.

Speaker 4: But the heat has like got that 80s kind of like pop to it, you know.

Speaker 3: But his is flattened, though. Uh uh Will Graham's as the movie goes along. Yeah, yeah. Um, and it's something about his clothing too that's 80s as hell. But I think you'll like this. I felt like his clothing was a hodgepodge of both Crockett and Tubbs. Because notice the suit jackets are all black, but the shirts are all like teal. Yeah.

Speaker 4: I would say more, I would say also too like Rick Deckard from Blade Runner. That's also good. There's a certain there's like a uh a uh yeah I can't quite tell what's going on because he's got these like bright ties and

Speaker 3: it speaks to he's slightly out of place, I think, being down there in this sort of setting, and him and sort of Freddie Lowndes, they both just reek of you're not from this area. Because I think Freddie uh Freddie Lowndes, I wanted to call him Freddie Clowns. Freddie Lowndes, the Tattler, his paper is what Chicago, I believe. No, it's DC. It's DC. So even so that in itself is like from this area.

Speaker 4: I mean, it definitely felt out of place. Yeah. Uh definitely. Um, yeah.

Speaker 3: So we get to, and this is sort of the, you know, I'm going up uh I'm going um chronological with these observations. So we get around the one hour mark.

Yeah. It's a two-hour movie. Oh, it feels feels like less. It's about a two-hour movie, and we get around the hour mark, we get dollar high.

We get the actual dollar high. And he literally picks up Freddie Lowndes by his face. He chloroforms him. Fucking clot him. He just picked him up, like, you know, like the great Kali, like he's in the ironclaw. Yeah, yeah. With the wild chloroform, and you see his feet lift up. I'm like, how tall is this dude?

Speaker 4: Yeah, he yeah, dude.

Speaker 3: So we we do that, it's about the hour long mark, and we get an understanding of his size that he's able to lift up another human. Now, granted, if we learned anything from Will Graham suplexing him into a car, maybe even Freddie just light on the seat.

Speaker 4: But then Steven Lang later on in life is like fuck a chicken. Fuck y'all.

Speaker 3: Um, so we later, and this is the scene that Freddy uh Frankie Fasan is in. We learn that Dollar High is six foot seven. Yes. Damn. But he's like 215, so it's like you should be playing for the Miami Heat or something. Yeah. Like you're a three. You're uh shooting uh small forward shooting guards. Yeah. Wow.

Um, 6'7". Now, we get sort of one of my favorite lines in this movie. Um everything that because he has he has Freddie Lowndes in his home. Yeah.

In Dollar Hyde's home. Yeah. And we get sort of his motivations, the the red dragon of it all, the the Byron iconic, all of that.

And he says this line, which is a short line of all of the stuff he says to Freddie Lowndes, which is terrifying, by the way. Yeah. You owe me awe. Yeah. I was like, whew. Oof. And he's wearing like the half stocking, which is also terrifying.

Speaker 4: He has these like false teeth he puts in, too. Thoughts on false teeth. Huh? Thoughts on these false teeth. Because he bites him at one point. Yeah, it's just weird. It's just, you know, it's it just uh I was like, what the f if you get

Speaker 3: kidnapped, someone picks you up by your face. Yeah. And they'll put you in a chair. Ties, yeah. Now remember in the red dragon one, uh uh Philip Siewer Hoffman is in his panties. He's in like tidy whitey's in this scene.

Stephen Lang was like, I refuse. I will not be in my underwear. So that shows the commitment of look, I I'm not it. Yeah, I gotta be in my panties. And he's giving him all of it, he's doing this thing with the slideshow.

Yeah. He's showing him the murders. He's basically like revealing who it is, and Freddie's like, oh yeah, you want this information? Because what happens in that scene when um he's doing the photo op with Will Graham as far as chronologically, so we can stick with why he kidnapped Freddie Lang, uh Freddie, yeah, uh Freddie um Freddie Lowndes. What precedes that?

Speaker 4: Uh Freddie Lowndes is in the garage going to his car, right?

Speaker 3: Well, at well, before that, the thing with Will Graham. Because the article or something.

Speaker 4: He goes to with yeah, wait, they shot Will Graham comes to him to try to draw out Dollar Hyde. Yeah. And gets his picture, he gets um a picture of him and Freddie Lowndes together, and then like some there's something in the background he wants the killer to notice or something. So the two of our pictured together.

Um, because I think uh Dollar Hyde is interested in Will Graham. Yeah. And so by Freddy Loun Freddy Lowndes, but he inadvertently put himself on the radar of the killer. Right. Um the killer wrote read his his paper anyway. And this goes to the

Speaker 3: thing, the reason that they learned that he's on that he's interested in Graham is because of the correspondence between the collector. Yeah. Yeah. Because at that point, and because it this first like bit of the movie moves pretty fast that first hour. Yeah. Um so going back a little bit, we have Will sees Lecter. They meet at the place and they have that sort of uneasy conversation.

Speaker 4: He's trying to get the set back, yeah.

Speaker 3: He's trying to get the scent, he says, Smell yourself. Yeah, the scent all over you.

Speaker 4: Because Will doesn't want to, he knows he's getting too close, and he's like, he's trying to get that killer instinct back because he's being he's got a cold and then electric electric clock's like he's like need my help. Like, fuck you. You know who the fuck I am? Yeah.

Speaker 3: And then he has the thing with uh the telephone scene is really fire, actually. That was amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 4: I mean, like, but you see this guy, he looks like a ruffian. And he's like, he's trying to get Wolves. Will's a dress. Yeah, which he's trying to get Will's address. Yes. And he can put on a very up upper crust uh cadence. He's like, Mother, I'm trying to get, you know.

Speaker 3: What does he say to him? He's like, uh, I don't have the use of my arms.

Speaker 4: He said he says that's an operator. And he says, can you dump it for me? And he's but he but he sounds like like he goes from from like some ruffian soccer legion looking dude, but he sounds like a like a uh a posh uh aristocratic something. He sounds trustworthy now. So it's not trustworthy.

Speaker 3: And he relates when because he cut he cuts between those. He cuts between when he talks to the guard who says I'll mace you if you turn away, or I'll make your face to he hacks the phone because he rewires it.

Yep. And then he gets to the person that it's like, uh, you know, I don't have to use my own. Can you dial someone operator? Yeah, he gets to the assistant, yeah, and he is relatable in a way, it's like, uh, I don't see a phone number, she's not here. And you can tell he's a little annoyed.

Speaker 4: Zip that he's like, zip that uh you have a game of uh like a Rolodex or whatever, and he's like, zip that down to Little G. It's like it's very folksy. And it is but he's like, I'm trying to send him a book. Uh and he's just maneuvering through and then because after that, he gets he gets Will Graham's address, he sends the dollar hide, you know, something something full moon, kill them all.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like they're on to you kill them all. Yeah, yeah. Which is I mean, that's that's what I'll say to you one day, like, David, they're on to you, kill them all.

I mean, the bazooka for that guy. Um so that just kind of just to set us where we're at in the film. So we're post this tactic. Yeah. I think you were like this. We're post this tactic where you have the guy who's talking to Will that night about the gun, and he's like, Yeah, yeah, you know, these bullets, you know.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. It was a uh Tef, they're like Teflon suspending a liquid Teflon. I was like, all right, go on. Laser safety slugs suspended like Teflon.

Speaker 3: He's like, you're gonna bring up body armor, yeah. Second, second chance. Blah, blah. He's going for the headshot or something like that. Yeah, eight out of eleven times he's gone for the headshot. He's like, I hope you do get a second chance. Yeah. Then he floops out. Yeah. And then Will starts walking.

Speaker 4: But it it's also that little scene, I love it because it shows Michael Mann's attention to like firearms and like um and the the because like you get the same with heat, the training for heat was uh they brought in like fucking ex-SAS guys.

Speaker 3: Yeah, because the way that um Val Kilma's holding that Blickington.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that was like a was it a um it was a car, it was a car 15, it was a uh commando, it was an M M16 16 commando variant. Um was it the six I I can't remember the natural big nation.

But um they had SAS guys training, but the first they were so they were dis they had to whole day disabusing them that they that they knew how to use these weapons and there was a whole day of safety. Yeah. So you can't like just I you can't sweep somebody. You have to, there's a certain way you move maneuver with the weapons. So that attention to detail of of how to use these dangerous fucking these you know boomsticks was interesting. Comes into play when he's like, we're using this specific ammunition. Yeah, specifically bullets. And he's like, who would go into that?

Speaker 3: It's it's an interesting detail because I think uh William Peterson said in an interview about I I think he it didn't come off, it came off more matter of fact that he was being critical. Yeah, he's like Michael Man is very specific. Yeah, and so with that, there's an attention to detail, but also it leads to you not being so crazy with the output of how many things you're gonna do, because he's not done a lot of movies, but he's done movies and there's a certain attention to detail that you you appreciate as you're discussing with this guy.

Speaker 4: But how many gunfights you in movies you see where it's like you should you watch them just keep shooting, shooting, shooting, and I'm like, they're gonna run out of bullets by now.

Or just because it what it does, or it's like when I watch uh uh uh Nolan movie, like you think like I know because Nolan always is always trying to be uh He's curious about time, he's about he's always trying to be like Michael Mann, though, and I'm like, I think about Michael Mann, the gunfight heat, or even any gunfight in his movies is that the sound is so visceral.

Speaker 3: The sound in the heat specifically is out of pocket.

Speaker 4: And they don't use the they don't they use the production sound the of the blanks moving through through doo-doo-doo. It's like the the sounds rich out the buildings, you know, but but even like you look I look at thinking about inception in comparison to heat of the gunfight, it's like it's just production sound. It's like it takes me out of it.

Michael Mann, there's an immersion into like there's an immersion into the world he's drawing you into. Even the movies that that people think didn't work. I still love like black hat. I still love uh public enemies. I mean people are like, oh, I'm a Michael Mastan. I'm not a very director.

Speaker 3: But he's an aquarius, so I gotta support him.

Speaker 4: He's an Aquarius. But it's just that makes sense. Um but you know, there yeah, you're you're drawn in. So that's that scene, it's small, right? But it's like, but it also is just like there's something about that's just fucking like tact, it's like a tactical scene.

Speaker 3: No, it's it's a good scene, it's not out of place, it allows it to cook in a way where you're like, oh, okay, yeah, this is something that it does not take to the movie. That's not it doesn't take away from the movie. It's not a thing that I feel is a lull because I like when information is being disseminated. Yeah, and it gets it also across that this been retired.

So here's a new weapon. Yeah, and he does definitely draw that. I was like, no, you were trained, because when you see they're doing the sort of scoping, and you have the person running, it's like that's a guy coming over here. Yep, he's jogging and it's like, oh shit, a black dude. And he flies, he's like, oh no, no, no.

No, no, no, no, no, no. He's like, I know what year this is. And the the black guy's like, hey man, he's getting away. I'm being bugged, like, right. What are you doing? And he's like the cornyest black guy. Yeah, DC black guy.

Speaker 4: Like, you're gonna jog out there at

Speaker 3: that hoodie on and shit in the rain, dummy. So got a whole SWAT team while you're back, you don't know. So this is happening concurrent to the dollar hide slideshow where Freddy is sort of kidnapped. It's like, you don't think I got him? He's actually got your guy.

Yeah. And we see what happens there. He's showing him the different families that he's killed. So he's like, I'm letting you know that I am the killer. Yeah. And these are the people that I've killed.

I'm him. Literally. And he's doing this thing, it's so terrifying. He's like, Do you see? Yeah.

Do you see? And it's like, these this is fucked up. And then he shows him his picture with Will Graham, that's in the paper. Yeah. And he's like, Do you think I'm queer? Yeah. Oh. So I'm very scared. He's like, put your panties back on. It's like. I mean, that.

Speaker 4: And then he like, if you don't look, I'm gonna like cut off your

Speaker 3: uh staple eyelids shut or say eyelets open. God damn. It's it's a good threat, actually. It's a very good threat. Because I mean he's already pictured by your face. Yeah. So it's like he's going to do it.

Speaker 4: And then he like the fish, you see him, you go back to that same garage, right? And the the garage attendant's just sitting there.

Speaker 3: Hold on, hold on. Before we get to that, we'll get to it. He has him read the statement, though. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because he makes him read literally basically a journalistic retraction of this story, and kind of get across this thing, and then we get to that scene where the attendant is in there, and what happens in the scene. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Uh the tenants just he's just read the paper. real quick. And then he hears something behind him. He turns around and it's like, oh my god. It's like, oh shit. He sees a guy in a wheelchair on fire, rolling down the the ramp to into the garage. And it's just like, it's a quick cut, but it's just like, so he just don't have to see the holy shit slipping together.

Speaker 3: He sees Johnny Storm being aided by a wheelchair just blowing by. He's like, where is Reed Richards? Basically. And terrifying. To this point, we have the intimation of violence. Yeah. We don't actually have any we like we see a crime scene.

Yeah. We see a terrible crime scene in the beginning, but no one, we don't see someone getting shanked up and stabbed. We don't see Freddie attacked. We see him, and we see him uh lunged at, then we you know get the notion that he's being bent, and then we hear the screaming, and then the next thing we see him being wheeled away, but we're not seeing any acts of direct violence, which I think is very intentional. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Because I mean your mind fills in.

Speaker 3: Uh what happened, like you said, it was a really quick cut.

Speaker 4: Because I mean, to hear someone saying I'm gonna staple your eyeball, I eyelids open, like, God, like that's already horrible.

Speaker 3: Just the the you almost want to ask the question, how does that work? How would you do that?

Speaker 4: So you can only imagine what happened to him that led to him being lit on fire. Yes. You know what I'm saying? Like that is.

Speaker 3: And in the same sort of fire thing in each version of it that I've seen, whether it be in that, and in Manhunter and Red Dragon or in Hannibal, all fucked up.

Each one is fucked up. Um And then we kind of think we get that payoff. Um, because I think we're in a hospital.

And Dennis Farina's talking to Will. Yeah, yeah. And that's when we he finds out, like, son of a bitch gave me. He's like, I gotta sort it out. Yeah, yeah. He's like, some of the bitch gave me a dress. He's like, oh fuck, I gotta put this jacket on, it doesn't fit and run.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Because now it's coming home, the situation.

Speaker 4: But you see, even the way his family is shot, though, it's like this deep blue. And um then and then you hear like it's his son goes to his mom, like, mom, there's someone at the door.

Someone outside. And you're like, it's like, holy shit. And you see, it's a cop, you know, holding a shotgun. It's like, man, come back inside. Come back inside. And it's just like, you don't know what you're disoriented. You know what's happening.

Speaker 3: I almost wanted it to be like just dollar highs, like, I'm here. So I was like, yeah, everyone dies. I don't need this family. We can turn this movie down by like 40 minutes.

Speaker 4: What if that were him there? That'd be crazy. Yes.

Speaker 3: But then it just goes and it's sort of uh not that we're trying to we're gonna redeem Dollar High, that's not the point of it, but that the film is not redeemable. It's like you uh uh only Stephen King could kill kids in the 80s. You know what I mean?

Like, these kids are gonna die terribly. Yeah. Um then we had this sort of this is now at the second hour mark. Yeah.

Then we get this, and I want to get your your perspective here. We get Dollar High, take him women out to see tigers and shit. Like, yeah, baby, uh she's blind though. No, we we yes, but we get this notion of what his actual life is, like this is a real person.

Yeah, not just here's some monster or what have you. This is a person who has a job and some issues, and he has the the the co-worker, right? She's a co-worker. Yeah, um, who's blind, and he's like, Yeah, you know, give you a ride home for my pleasure. Yeah. That's just like, yeah, for your pleasure.

Kind of pleasure we're talking about, big dog. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And she was like, she's like, Can I touch your face? Right. Which have you ever been in that situation? You ever have any uh No, never I

Speaker 4: she's trying to read his his But

Speaker 3: then he's so conscious about what he looks like.

Speaker 4: Think he's got a hair lip or something. He does. Yeah.

Speaker 3: And then he has the the weird the teeth and all of that, and it's just like he's like, trust me, you can uh I'm smiling.

Speaker 4: But there's an assistant though, like that also is that's into him in a dollar high. I've noticed. I didn't notice that. Yeah, there was a uh she's asking him, she's like, Mr.

Dollar High, she comes over and asks him to check on something, and like and he's like, you know, the it's something before he meet uh he licks up with that um the blind woman, there's one of his assistants, she's like blonde or something. Yeah. I noticed that.

I'm like, oh, what is that? Because she's she clearly knows what he looks like. Right. And he's like six seven, she's like in him, you know. She's like, I love tall guys. Or something. It's it's just like you can tell there's a there's a bit of like something.

Speaker 3: I love tall, kind of creepy, thinning, balding guys.

Speaker 4: Yeah, he's got that, yeah, he's got the fucking comb. He's got a swoop slick. Swoops, it's like, bruh, just let it go.

Speaker 3: And then he will later go on to have Robocop cut into multiple pieces in Robocop 2. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that can't nuke. Like Bruh. his arc is wild. Tom Noon.

God really super tall dude. Um so yeah, he's taking her there. Um, it's a sedated tiger, and this is kind of a date, yeah, right. And then I guess he's trying to explore what a relationship could look like, or what dating her tell me about that.

Speaker 4: They he like takes her. Does it take her home? Or does he take her like he gives her a ride another point, they go back to his place. Yeah. She comes on to him. Yeah. And they sleep together. Um, and he's at one point he's uh up watching like those same movies, you know. He's like, what are you watching? Um It's like old home movies.

It's probably it's actually the killings. Yeah. And she's a blind chance here.

He's able to just do it with impunity. Yeah. Um, but he also noticed that he likes her, and that she doesn't think he feels like he'll be accepted by her. Right. Because of uh the shame of the shame.

Um, So, because when later on when her colleague drops her off at her house, uh this one, I forgot her name. Um he sees that from his van. I think it's a fucking van is already. That's just like right there on the nose, right? And like he sees that how like he's like, because her colleague, um I think that's uh Reba.

Yeah, yeah. And her colleague who draw who's more familiar with her drops her off at her place. It's either something like there's looks a hair on her on her like nose or whatever. It's like, oh this yeah, make a wish, you know, or something like that.

Yeah. And what Dollar Hyde sees is like them having this special moment, and he's out left out of that. You know, he's basically like a teenage boy. You feel like he's rejected.

He's always rejected. He feels like you know, well, what I had is I'm losing this. So he he pulls up, and then he does this and this is where the Michael Madness comes out. He pulls up a homeboy after he she goes in the house, and the guy's like, oh, it's dollar hide.

And then he he fucking like pulls out the piece with this with the suppressor, puts he hits him with the Mozambique drill. You did you notice that? No, please tell me, don't you? He mostly it's like it's like what Tom Cruise does to two guys in the alley and then collab. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Two to the chest, one of the head, the failure drill.

And it was he actually did that in Miami Vice as well with one specific character. And it's like a quick draw, And it like, I'm like, yo, what the fuck?

Speaker 3: And then it gets across that, it gets across that where's your training from? Because as they said earlier with the gun thing, all of them have been headshots, and he expertly did something that was

Speaker 4: like He but that's the thing, like, okay, this guy's layered, because where did he learn to do that?

Speaker 3: Yeah, because he's not young either.

Speaker 4: Yeah, he's like he's probably like late 30s, early 40s. Yeah. Like this motherfucker, you know, it's just like that's specific. I mean, Michael, I love the the Michael Mann thread through all the films and how he goes back to that that specific shot lines, but it's like he pulled up my homeboy and put and this is like what the fuck? Laid him down.

And then he k he kissed kidnaps uh a homegirl. Reba. Yeah. It brings her back to his his house where he's making her watch all those home movies for real. And uh he just puts the sound on it. What's that on, yeah.

And then that's when I think the free uh uh Frankie uh Faithon goes back into the mix. They have to know they have to con they have to get it Dollar High before the full next full moon. Yeah, because he has to satisfy his thing. Satisfy his thing, yeah. Um But in between that, I think you know, you have Will Graham having another conversation with Lecter about he's asking Letter, why does it feel good to

Speaker 3: when Lecter is sitting on the bed, he's teenage girl now.

Speaker 4: Yeah, he sees like leading back

Speaker 3: and because you know there's a whole slash element of like, are you actually just dating? Because that's actually the love story that's here in this movie, because it's definitely covered in the Hannibal show. Yeah, like you guys are they jump off a cliff together at in the last episode.

Speaker 4: I couldn't watch the show. Very good. It's very good. Very good. Maybe one day. You should watch it.

Speaker 3: Um so you have then he gets the extra context, and I think Will kinda cr kind of cracks like what it is. Yeah. And they're going to go to Dollar High's place.

Yeah. The cops are going there. I think there's it gets a little fuzzy because it's like I think they realize they're running out of runaway here with this runtime on this movie.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um but they're they're putting um I can in between that when they're doing the investigating, they're getting their the they're getting the hairs and this fibers and stuff. I mean, all that stuff is fucking amazing.

Yeah, yeah. Them looking at, like, you know, I mean, There's a line, because they even they're when they're analyzing the note between Dollar Hyde and Hannibal, you know, all that stuff that you see the FBI's how they're using their technology to work this, and it's chemical this and that, it's really fascinating. Um but when they get to that point where they actually come down to um the people that may fit the description, yeah. That's when they run those those descriptions through their their database.

Database. Um's like, this is their man. You know, they they go to his house, yeah, they're running out of um, they're in a plane that has to like take off by a certain point, I think. Yeah. They can be there within a certain time, and uh Will jumps out ahead of him.

Speaker 3: Um there's somebody's car goes off the road, one of the cops.

Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is something. And then Will gets out of gets out and like runs the rest of the way. And um, what's his name? Uh uh his detective friend. Um Dennis Rainer. That's Rita's.

I don't know. Like, well, Jack Crawford. He's like, come back, we got we have backup, yeah.

And but he's so drawn. He's like, I gotta get there. I gotta do it, I gotta go, you know. Yeah. Um the right time's running out, you know.

They were literally running out of money. Yeah. Um, but even before that, him and Crawford were just like arguing about like about you know, because Will couldn't find him. It's like what he's he didn't understand the motivation, and that process like he's doing was really fascinating. You know, sitting in a room, him and Jack Carf have an argument. It's like, we'll take it like what, buddy, you know, they have the fucking cops detective speak. And it's just like and we'll finally understand his primary drive, and that's what leads to them profiling him. And yeah, where would he work?

What would he do? What would he you know, what this chemical leads to this, and then um so yeah, when they finally find his house, and then was it was that song?

Speaker 3: Um gotta be yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and and then apparently Wolf like Mickey Billy Peterson and uh Tom Noonan didn't actually meet on the film until that point where he jumps through the window with the good.

Speaker 3: Let's give it its due. That scene is so fire, especially the way that the music is used. Yeah, because it's like, alright, this is just half an inch, it's there, and they kind of go to like what's this instrumental version of it? Where did this come from? Well, he's terrorizing Reba with the shard of the Yeah, and um you see like Will just run and stop it running.

Speaker 4: Stop it. And then he just like just dies through. Because you see, like he's having a conversation with his wife before, because he's because his wife doesn't want him to get drawn back into this life.

Speaker 3: And he's um And we established that early on because she talks to Jack Crawford. Yeah. And it's just like, why are you here? We're here. Yeah.

Speaker 4: But it's like he's like, the killing's gotta stop. He's like, I've gotta be alone to process all this. That's where you get the whole, like, he's spilling shit out on the plane. What is the killing? His that internal life is spilling outward, and he's trying to control it. But his wife is uh it's like you think he's like, I think you should take take our son and go down to your father's place. Yeah. And you'd be alone to process this. You know, he's gotta be alone to fight the monster.

Speaker 3: Especially at that stage where it got to you guys are at a threat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: And uh, and then becomes it's like, you know, he's he's a moral guy. It's like he's just like he doesn't want to see anybody get hurt, especially like, you know, and he just he runs and jumps through the glass.

Speaker 3: I mean, which is great. This is how I wish you would have come into this podcast. You just jump through, like, oh shit, David's here. Hey, how's it going?

Speaker 4: Like, and then you know, and then the fucking here's the thing. He judo throws him by the way. This motherfucker catches his midair. Right. Strongish He fucking catches him and fucking throws him into a refrigerator. The refrigerator.

Speaker 3: It's like Tomato sauce and sodas everywhere.

Speaker 4: What the fuck is this guy? And then it was just like, it just he pulls out the the fucking blicky and the wild pump shotgun.

Speaker 3: Police are taking L's. Boom.

Speaker 4: He fires it one-handed. I mean, which means he's strong as shit. Yeah. Because he takes a few rounds of that of the Glazer safety slug uh to the chess.

Speaker 3: And when when Will gets the upper hand after uh dollar high Francis, dollar high to be exact, um, dispatches the two police officers with the wild blicking chip. One goes down a flight of steps. Yeah. I was like, you guys are red shirts. You're blue shirts, but you're also redshirts. I mean, it was I

Speaker 4: mean, he just like I mean like goddamn, you know, and then um because Will hits it hits the refrigerator, passes out.

Speaker 3: It's so fucking funny it is. They were fasting.

Speaker 4: Catches him in mid-flight, throws him, and then like he used his momentum. Yeah. So beat the fuck out of him.

Speaker 3: He is in a dead sprint, like I'm gonna hurdle this island in your kitchen. Yeah. That you were harassing Reba on a few minutes ago with a shard of mirror mirror.

Speaker 4: I've Come in, one hand, one hand's a pump shotgun, boom.

Speaker 3: Blick, blick. Just like You just kill with impunity. I don't really care. I'm killing everybody who comes in here. Yeah.

Speaker 4: I mean he probably knows what's gonna happen eventually, but like uh but damn. Um And Will gets the upper hand and like pops him, and then um I think he slaps him with a fucking shot of glass too.

Speaker 3: Yeah, he does get a because he has a uh slash on his face when he sees his uh

Speaker 4: He's got a cool scar now, yeah. Yeah, um that time took about serial killer, you know, and see this guy right here? This guard and uh yeah, it's just but it it's like but the movie it lays the seeds for his other for later works and I think the music I think you don't get heat in like you know Moby Moby's contribution along with like was it Elliott Goldhal Okay. the score without the experimentation you get in Manhunter, yeah.

And I think that uh you know, even from like what's it no, actually Thief, yeah, thief with Tandraid Dream, yeah, and then but that like they're called I think even with Miami Vice they called like the MTV MTV cops, that was you know, the tagline. But how music is integrated into a film in a in a in a good way. Yeah, it feels like some movies know when the score is always blaring.

Speaker 3: That's been one of the I think fake criticism about Michael Mayor stuff, and it's just like I think we you need something good to listen to, and I think if you do it right, if you time it up right specifically with this this song during that that scene, that's the scene with the most violence where we actually see someone being shot.

Several people are killing the scene. It's just like you guys built to this, and the way the music is used is built up to a way because you have the song playing as it plays. Yeah, and then as with building to will running, it's just the instrumental, all of the lyrics are dropped out, and then as soon as he hits the glass, the music comes in.

Speaker 4: It's crescendo. Yeah, but think about the end of thief, right? Where it's just like I forget what song they play, but it was perfect. He's breaking in, and it just like it feels like something kind of bluesy, but kind of but kind of also modern kind of like like a like a uh rock anthem or something but without uh lyrics uh lyrics.

Sure. And it just builds or builds and builds, and you know, and I think that uh yeah, that's that's really important because he's not a guy that does like you know, like a score, like you know, London Sylvia orchestra. Like he's using like sixth wave.

That's what I mean that's why Greg GTA borrowed from him. Yeah. And it's like, but it it just works just right. Because he's it's an acronym, there's a sort of an anachronism. He said with Thief, he was thinking about using like regional blues, but there would have been original specificity.

But if you use Tangerine Dream, it sort of takes it out of that regional specificity and makes it kind of timeless. Yeah. I think with Manhunter, there's something similar. Um And that's why it works.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I I think in rewatching it, and that's mostly kind of how the movie ends. You you have like a post script with the family back on the beach, and his son sees him, and you can kind of see that tone shift in in him. Like there's a brightness that happens when he's around his family. And I think you're right with the way that you touched on it earlier, way that color was used, specifically when he's around his family, but it's it's sort of that shift. And two things I want to say before I move into questions and then our um sort of uh favorite scenes. Yeah. Um one observation I have. Yeah. I think Dollar High dresses better than Will in this movie. I think all of his fits are kind of fire.

Speaker 4: Kind of, yeah. Well, he knows how to dress for his body type, I guess.

Speaker 3: And it's just like, yo, he's kind of wearing a better, he putting that shit on, as they say, and he's dressed in a better version of what you're wearing. It's like that's the same print.

Speaker 4: It's I mean, it's very 80s, but it's like, yeah, it works better.

Speaker 3: I mean, if I was in the 80s, I would just dress like a hat comedian. And then the other thing I'll say, and I think you'll you may agree with this. I think that final shootout sequence, yeah, the way it's edited, because when he comes through the paper or what have you, and he busts through, that edit's a little wonky. I was like, this is a Miami Vice shootout scene. It's yeah. It's the same editing.

Speaker 4: It's uh well they also they didn't have any time.

Speaker 3: No, no, I understand that, but I think the way that when you watch episodes of Miami Vice, yeah, at times, sometimes they just end. You're like, is there a conclusion here? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it kind of does that same thing. Yeah. And I like that, but also it just feels like if you just said, because I know in the uh rewatchables episode, which I thought was really funny, they were like, you could swap out William Peterson and put John Johnson in there. They're just the same person. I got a kid, I got this family, working out. Yeah, I gotta get this guy. I live in his boat.

Speaker 4: Well, that was a criticism too of uh of To Live and Die in LA. They thought it was just a Miami Vice Ripple. And I mean, it's not. I think it was actually way harder than Miami Vice. Um I think it it's what it kind of was what my advice to me in some instances should have been. Yeah, I mean, imagine William Peterson as like as Don Johnson, Sonny Crockett. I mean, I I think it's totally believable.

Speaker 3: I mean the hair is kind of the same hair, different color, but kind of the same hair.

Speaker 4: I I think he I think he's the only person that can pull it off, personally. Because he's got the he There's some about the like the toughness and the hardness and the the I mean the bravado.

Speaker 3: I don't know if it's a sort of people were critical of critics are critical of Will Graham's um, well, William Peterson's interpretation of Will Graham. I thought it was fun upon re-watching it. Yeah. I just felt like it's a guy that's broken, he's seen some shit.

Yeah. And he's trying to, he's almost like, I don't know what the actual word is. He's like somewhat detached in a way. And he's trying to, as we talked about earlier, trying to re-attach himself and catch that sin again and be locked in. And this is a guy that's dealing with the degree of trauma of like, you almost died. Yeah.

But then you want red because the reason he has so much uh animus towards uh Freddie Lows is like this fucker took a picture of you in your bed all stabbed out. Yeah. Fuck this guy. So here's the questions I have for you. Yeah.

I got a couple of them. So when I approached you, David, to be on this this beach in this podcast. You were my Will Graham. But did you did you notice what Will Graham was wearing in that scene?

Um, the first scene in the movie. He's wearing like it's not good what he's wearing. He's wearing a t-shirt. It's not a t-shirt. He's wearing a thermal shirt that's cut off, like that waffle undershirt thermal when it's super hot and it's super cold. I look at it and I was like, this is gray and waffled, but it's just cut off. I was like, this is bad beach wear. And um I just noticed that. I was like, what why? I was like, this is just put on, don't have a shirt on.

Like, what is this? Um which and maybe I think I already know the answer, but which interpretation of Red Dragon do you prefer? And I know you haven't seen the television series.

I think the television series works, it's fine. Um I think this film or Red Dragon is sort of um the the question, and there's a 16-year gap between this and Red Dragon, by the way. Because Red Dragon's a 2002 movie. So which interpretation, have you seen both of them or

Speaker 4: I've seen uh Silence of the Lambs?

Speaker 3: Oh, so you've not seen Red Dragon on Hannibal.

Speaker 4: Uh uh, I no, because I couldn't um I it's not kind of subject matter I want to I want to watch normally. It's I mean I watched Silence of the Lambs eventually.

I'd heard so much about it as a kid growing up, how horrible it was. Um but this movie, because it's because it's Michael Man, because like I'm you know, because I want to see what you know I just I was drawn up by the street if I knew it was Michael Manor, I thought I was drawn up by the style of the show. Sure. And like William Peterson, I recognize that guy, and then just like that's Trina, huh? I recognize that stubble. Yeah.

I know that mustache. You know, and then again just the the art direction of it got like there it felt like it's like it was made with intention. It the the thing about it, which I thought was really cool.

Speaker 3: Seeing I think this is a thing for for our era. I could be wrong. Yeah. But which Ghostbusters movie did you see first? The first one. I saw the second one first. Oh, well, what uh the Bobby Brown one. Bobby Brown?

Bobby Brown is he's all throughout the soundtrack, but he's uh has a cameo in the movie. Really? Yes. Uh he's a uh I think he's a dormant or something, and he's like, those Protel attacks, I get one of those for my brother. But that's the one that that that happens, and um this is at the the non-marshmallow man one, the one with fucking uh the Vigo to Carpathian and the River. That's the first one I saw.

I remember that one. So it's something about like when you see something, and is that the imprinting moment? So seeing Silence of the Lambs and all of those movies, and then later seeing uh Manhunter, yeah, and I was like, this is gonna be a forgotten movie because it's not in an Anthony Hopkins arc, and most of the heavy lifting is done by um most of the heavy lifting is done by Silence of the Lamb, and then it's Lambs, and then it's diminishing returns afterwards. Yeah, well, yeah.

Speaker 4: Um there was so much there was there's so much fanfare around it when it came out.

Speaker 3: And it's a fire performance. I'm not saying it's it's not, it's a good it's a good movie, it's very enjoyable, but you have named directors who really scott directs I think Hannibal.

Oh, does he? That's the director for Hannibal. The third one, Red Red Dragon, which is a you know remake or whatever of Manhunter, that's Bret Ratner, and it's not good.

Speaker 4: He's a not good director.

Speaker 3: And then you get Hannibal Rising, which is just the prequel that kind of sucks. So it just steeped down down.

Speaker 4: It's like Alien. We already know the premise. Yeah, it's gonna it's gonna kill everybody. And then you just or Predator or Terminator, you keep making the same thing.

Speaker 3: But then it's like, what are you adding to it to make it? And I think that the challenge is when you think of Silence of the Lambs is the second book, I think. So we already have, and like I said, Silence of the Lambs is five years after this. Yeah. Oh.

And then when you get to doing Red Dragon, which is 12 years after Silence of the Lambs, and remember that's supposed to be before Silence of the Lambs. Yeah. So you have let's make Anthony Hawkins look younger somehow. It's like the actor's now 12 years older. Yeah.

And I believe they had to. So Will Graham is a different person. It's like Ed Norton.

Oh, yeah. So it's just like you're you're changing certain things, certain things don't really really work. And part of it is time, part of it's the back dooring into it. And like I said, I know that there's some like sort of rights issues with who owns what characters. And it's like we can't do this because this character is in it, and so and it gets really wonky. Um, so I guess we'll go with this film because versus Red Dragon, because Red Dragon.

Speaker 4: Oh, right. So I mean the films I pay attention to are this film and Silence of the Lambs. Okay. They You know, they seem the most um cohesive uh films to me.

Speaker 3: Um one of the things I think that could work, um there's two points I want to get across. Uh, one thing that I think that could work, so there was a failed television show of Clarice that was like 2022.

Did not work. One episode was really good though. It was a guy that um they they learned that he was a serial killer. Yeah. Because he was painting these, you would appreciate this. He was painting these really great masterworks, and you looked at you study, it's like, is that actual blood? Turns out he was a serial killer and using his victim's blood to do these paintings. Yes.

And he's a very well off dude, so he didn't need it. Yeah. And it's just like, yeah, yeah, you know, here's this. It's like, oh, you're a murderer.

Jeez. I was like, this is great. The only good episode of the show. Yeah. And this is supposed to be that period between after Silence of the Land.

So, like, what the Clarice do for the next 10 years or something. They could not get out of the blocks. It was not good. Um, but in it, if you're going to play with, hey, we can play within the parameters of this universe.

Yeah. What I would like to see is what's Dollar High's backstory before we get there. Almost in that sort of true detective sort of way, because as I established earlier, the killings, where are they at? Birmingham and Atlanta.

Speaker 4: You kind of have the this almost requires a miniseries. Yeah. So you can actually explore, you know. Young hide. I mean, I feel like true detective and other other shows that came after that started to really do that. Explore like the bo the like you have uh sharp objects. I like sharp objects, actually. Really, really amazing.

Speaker 3: The ending is a fucked. That's what I'm saying. Like, oh fucking. Like, yo, that's the floor. Oh shit, don't tell mama. Like, damn. Yeah. But I mean, that's talking about the same thing, killers. And I don't know if we get those shows anymore because of the state of what TV is now. Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah.

Speaker 4: But I mean, there was a good run where they had post-detective, he had like Meravy's town. Um, which I mean, which could have been other true detectives, like the that universe, but uh, but yeah.

Speaker 3: Um I would like to see it though. Like, if we play with this notion of uh I've been looking at it, like you can do this is gonna be one season.

Yeah, we're gonna do four to six episodes. Uh this is a game that I play. You know when you see a show and you're like, I don't care about the show, where did he get the money from? Take the money from this show that I don't care about and put it towards something I actually care about. So, like, I don't know if I need to see the Ed Gean story that was on like Netflix and what have you, that was fine. But I didn't really care about it, especially the way it ended was stupid.

Just like give me a two-hour, four hour worth of you could do it as two hours over three episodes. Here's dollar hide over the years and how we got here. Because as you touched on, it's like this guy's layered. So it's like, how did you learn how to do some of these what look like military tactics?

Yeah. How did you get to this job? Was this an accident?

Were you born like this with the hair lip or what have you? And you know, when did the killing start? Because for you to be a serial killer to set up in like basically the panhandle, yeah. And it's just like, how long have you been doing this?

Speaker 4: But then I then you have to they're gonna put the the killer in the um the killer's gonna be sort of the anti-hero that we have the following.

Speaker 3: Yeah, because we're not gonna get the will gramming of it all, we're not gonna get someone investigating it. But I think because we fakely like serial killers and all of that stuff and true crime, I think how do you get there?

How do you land it? It doesn't have to be a finale. I think it speaks to we crave this finale, we crave a certain structure, other than we know that this is going to this series, but I think with some of the rights stuff when it comes to dealerantises or whoever owing the rights to these characters, I think this is the way that you play with it without touching on Hannibal, Clarice, Will Graham, or anything, and be able to make something that's in that universe that could possibly be satisfying, but you don't really need just he's a serial killer, but as you touched on, I think he's layered enough that it's like, tell me a little bit more about this guy.

Speaker 4: I think it's funny, I I think I can, I mean, I'm kind of opposite, like serious killers such a dark thing, but I can only dip in, dip out for a little bit. Like my favorite part of the movie is where Graham kills him because I'm just like finally the world that he creates is so twisted, I don't want to be in that world.

Speaker 3: And I think the way that they structured the film for us to be basically on his side of things for a little bit, you know, like, oh, you're you're fucked up, dude.

Speaker 4: Yeah, he I mean, he's it's like the black of it. It's just like, why are you doing this? And it's just like, yeah, why are you doing this? It's like he could have had a nice thing.

Speaker 3: But so this is in that vein since we're talking about it. So the last question that I had, yeah. Um, I think especially when you talked about earlier, they started to run out of money towards the end. Yeah.

I'm like, I'm trimming down a lot of that dollar high romance stuff. I get the reason for it. It's a payoff there and all of that, as to what his motivations are, and I get that. He tried to backdoor into build to that, but it's a noticeable dip in the movie in terms of what interests me. Yeah. And knowing that they kind of started to run out of money a little bit, it's just like you could trim that by three to five minutes.

You could trim it just down, just a scoche. Yeah. And you can still do a movie that's close to two hours.

You still satisfy all of the stuff. Because I think with like certain directors who are very attention oriented and paid a lot of attention to detail, you know there's a longer cut of this movie. So it's just like you got shot more of this, didn't you? Probably. I mean probably. So I'd rather have more of like what Dollar High sees. Like when we see that creepy ass scene when he looks at the victims and you just see like those mirrors in your eyes and mouth, that's fucked up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know you're not fucking with you, like just Harry McKelvin's. The silver in their eyes. Yeah, yeah. So that's that's my thinking there. And um, as we get ready to sort of like wind this down a bit, I want to go into the last thing.

The last thing here. Best scenes. Best scenes.

So I got a number that I think that are in contention, and I'll start floating them out there, and you know, feel free to insert as we go along. So I think one of the first scenes I really like because it sets the stage and how we're gonna use our introduction to Will, like him in his setting of him doing this job when he goes to the crime scene.

Speaker 1: Tudor entered to kitchen sliding door, used a glass cutter anchored to a suction cup. His entry was skillful. All the prints are smooth gloves. Blonde hair, strong, size 12 shoe imprint. Blood A B positive type from saliva on glass from licking the suction cup. Why didn't he care that he left Saliva on the glass?

Speaker 3: The first time and kind of gets an idea of what it is, and then they do that real quick cut to show like everything in here is fucked up. This was a whole white room now, it's just covered in blood. Yeah.

I thought that scene was really good. I think they call it an expert um what is it, an expert entry or something. I think that's what they call in the DVDs. That sequence where he's how he breaks into the house, he walks up the steps. Yeah, the whole thing, it's like you're tracking what this dude, you're following this guy's footsteps. Yeah.

And I think that that works and really setting into what's his method. Oof. Yeah. Um when he has that realization, well, when he has that realization of the Franco Prince, because he's kinda in dude's head and Dollar Hyde's head. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Dust Mrs. Leeds, finger and toenails in the corneas of all their eyes. I think he took off his gloves, Jack.

Speaker 3: That whole sequence is funny. We talked about it a little bit earlier, like the dick swinging that's there. It's just like, yeah, I'm gonna have my guy. He yeah, that guy's good. Get my guy.

Yeah. And then you have the sequence you get the payoff where we get the um the Atlanta police chief of homicide, Springfield. Jack Crawford is looking at him so crazy. He's like, yeah. It's on a speakerphone, by the way. Oh, probably like speaker phone, he's like, yeah, yeah. He's like, yeah, it's a partial thumbprint on the eyelid of the child. And the the the Atlanta like uh guy, he's like, I I have no idea what you're talking about. And it's like you're gonna lose your job.

You half asked it. But all of that sequence is really funny to me, and it gets across how incredulous Jack is. He's like, I trust my guy. I don't trust this podunk bullshit. Yeah, Jimmy. Um get Jimmy on the line. Yeah, that guy's good. Jimmy's great though. Jimmy's our guy. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Uh yeah, that that I actually like this, because he's like, he's talking about telling those guys, like, yeah, you guys uh uh go investigate the K, you know, was the leather bars and the KY Cowboys and all the things.

Speaker 3: The KY Cowboys, now I get that because I missed it the first couple.

Speaker 4: I was like, what are they called? Fuck are you talking about?

Speaker 3: KY Cowboys is even funnier now.

Speaker 4: I just think I just think about like cruising with uh from uh nice what's his name? Uh Bel Pacino, yeah, yeah, uh Billy Freakin' so yeah, freaking um I'm like, or you even go to uh American uh American Jigalov.

Speaker 3: Who is friends with uh with with Michael Mann, by the way? Freaking? Yeah, that makes sense. I think he I think it was something I read that he wanted to cast him. I forget if as who but they they had some beef that was a lawsuit involved, like you rip me off, but then it's like I laid out.

Speaker 4: Oh no, that was those with freaking making making flip die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they thought it was a ripoff of my advice. Yeah, but I think I think if you can't freaking Miami Vice, fuck the wolf, right?

Ha ha ha! Like, do you understand like how like Freak is one of my favorite directors outside of man, yeah. My favorite directors were a kid used to be like Spielberg and like you know, um I still just I still like Scorsese That's how it sounds.

But but as I get older, like freaking when you look back to the French connection, right? Yeah, like that car chase was real, right? Like it's like I'm making this. He's like, fuck you guys. And and then even the uh how he showed you how they they actually like test the purity of like heroin.

That was a real scene. So you're so you're gonna try this, what you're saying. No, I mean I don't I don't I gotta try. heroin. I might drive on the road 90 miles an hour, but like I'm not, but just freaking as a director, the the thing about Michael Mann and Freaking is like they go for the reality. Yeah.

Their research is like reality-based. So we send Al Pascino into a real like fucking den of iniquity. Yeah. Like, you're gonna go here, you're gonna fucking you're gonna dance these guys.

Speaker 3: And then he hated Al Pacito apparently in this movie.

Speaker 4: I mean, freaking freaking hates everybody. He gets it. You look you look at the freaking interview, and people are saying, like, well, we uh yeah, you know, we I had a great time. He's like, fuck him. I had a but this guy's boring as shit. He talks shit about everybody.

Speaker 3: I mean, I kinda like that quality, actually.

Speaker 4: But he's also a fucking what I do.

Speaker 3: I don't know what y'all doing.

Speaker 4: But he he he'll he'll look into the eye of the needle for for uh um to make his movies, and it's like and Michael Mann, the research that Michael Mann does, um because I I'll watch him moves a commentary as well. You know, it's like damn, you can't tell if he's like I can't I can't tell you how he thinks it's like day-to-day. You know, like who is this guy?

Because then there's Ferrari, his latest movie, I'm like, it's I actually like it too. Yeah. But um, but yeah, man. Um I think if you put freaking like Yeah, it

Speaker 3: was like your seasons of Miami Vice.

Speaker 4: God imagine what that would have been.

Speaker 3: It it fixes uh almost an unforgivable wrong because there is a drastic tonal shift in those in those shows, in those seasons, and I think it led partially to the demise of the show.

Speaker 4: It did. What the ratings drop was was significant. Uh but you I mean you need someone who who I mean I don't know, I don't know. So it's still got a little darker. It got sillier, that's a problem.

Speaker 3: So going going back into these sort of like um sequence these scenes, and that's a really good point you're getting across. Uh so I think meeting Hannibal Lecter is a good scene. You get my car. I got it, thank you. And I was officer Stewart.

Speaker 2: The one I was first to see my Stuart's fight. Emotional problems out here. Do you have any problems, Will? No. No. Of course you don't.

Speaker 3: Thing we first see him, because see. It's it's a thing that's discussed of how it's shot. You can't tell who's behind bars. It's like they're both technically behind bars. Yeah. And that's a really good sequence, and then the sort of tete-to-tete, or what do they say in uh Silence of the Lambs uh Quid Pro Quell? It's a little bit of that. It's like, I want to read the papers. I'm gonna eat the case files. It's like I'll tell you what I think. It's like he's a shy boy. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Would you like to leave me a home phone number? Like, what? He he's such a bitch. in that scene, actually. Would you like to leave me your home phone number?

Speaker 3: Yeah, it looks like something that would come with a uh hmm, what's that scent? The same atrocious sense you wore in my trial. Something with a ship on a bottle.

Speaker 4: He's like, he's analyzing, yeah, he's like talking shit about his uh cologne.

Speaker 3: And then all of his uh uh senses are working overtime. Yeah. Because it's like, oh, I have something that like almost like a um a caged animal in a way, like a cage predator. Yeah. It's like everything is activated. Yeah, that's a good one to put it.

Speaker 4: Um He's like he is the tiger, basically. Yeah. A Little pre-shadowing. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Um, Lecter makes a phone call, I think is a good scene. We talked about that earlier. Great scene. Operator.

Speaker 2: Uh I don't have the use of my arms. Uh would you be so kind as to uh dial a number for me, please? Certainly. What's the number? Area code 30155 double six two four.

Speaker 3: When Will Grant figures it out, he's just like, huh, this motherfucker did that. He's like when he talks, touches another thing, he's like, he removed his gloves. See the woman. The bloom on the woman.

Speaker 1: You can see her again and again anytime you want. Doggy He doesn't have a collar, but you know it's the lead stuff. And the Jacobi can. And the padlock on the door.

And you know you need a bolt cutter and every other goddamn thing. Because everything with you is singing, isn't it? Your primary sensory intake that makes your dream live is singing. Reflections. Mirrors, images.

Speaker 4: It's about the scene where he's with a dance arena in the room. Yeah. They're just they're like, they're they're having the Dex win contests back and forth. And he's like there's because he's looking at the window, and it's like there's a building that's lit up at the top, and it's just like he's standing there with his hand on the glass. Like, your primary he's doing that thing where it's just like he plays like this fucking 80s detective. He feels like a guy, like a feels like a new war in that moment. Yeah. We'll take his legs up one pal, you know. It's just like you can guess argued about it. You're trying to find...

Speaker 3: It's like you guys have the same goal. You brought me in. You brought me in, motherfucker. I was on a beach, and got to have a Ma Thai. Yeah and a peanut collada. You were like, hey, let's sell this driftwood and talk about these murders real quick.

Speaker 4: And um, yeah, that's a I mean, that's just a great scene. Because like, how would what is it like to be that guy who can how do you fucking get that job? You I mean, how do you sleep? How do you sleep?

Speaker 3: I mean, also you you know, it's it's sort of a thing of like you gotta get rid of evil, and that's sort of the idea, and that's the motivation to come back. And I think in later interpretations of Jack Crawford, he's played real much more manipulative than in this, because I mean in Silence of the Lambs, he sends a trainee out there. Oh, is that was Scott Glenn in that one?

Scott Glen was Jack Crawford. He sends out a train, she's barely out of the academy. Yeah, like it's a real killer. Yes.

That's fucked up. I can't get Will again because remember that chronologically, this is the second story. Oh. So you can't go back to the well and bring Will and he's like, I'm done. I live here. Actually, I'm moving out of the country.

Speaker 4: I I mean, Stock Lane is a fucking is a beast though. Uh I think I'm Farina or Glenn. Farina for I lean I lean to Farina only because he actually did the fucking job.

Speaker 3: Because could you replace one in the other's role? Like, if you have Farina with the Anthony Hopkins one, does that work? I think so. Okay.

Speaker 4: I think I really I think so. I think I think he could be as discerning and manipulative. I think he's a better actor, he gets credit that credit for.

Speaker 3: Because he's well, uh, what is it? Uh LA Shakedown? No, Crime Story. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. Um but I think he's yeah,

Speaker 4: I think I think well, if you put Scott Glenn and Hunter.

Speaker 3: The hair's gonna be crazy because it's like he needs a mustache. He needs a mustache is funny.

Speaker 4: You need a musk, you need like a foot. I think I think Scott Gill can do it. I believe him.

Speaker 3: So Farina has to not have a mustache. I think they both has to be a mustache involved.

Speaker 4: Well, actually, well, no, no. But Farina without a mustache. Is cursed. It's just you can't have that. It's just not improper. You need um That's kind that's kind of glorious.

Speaker 3: And I know he was on an episode of Miami Vice. This is again another one he's gonna he had to invent, because he's just a Miami Vice guy, he just looks like one. Oh, he was yeah, he was on. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: I mean, uh like they became friends, like um I'm gonna cash in this as well. Put you in this film. Yeah, why not fuck it? He was well, he was in snatch as well, you know. Um we all the bullets who told me, yeah. Is that Tony the glasses? And uh, No, but I I think yeah, I think Dennis Farina can exist. I just I just think Dennis Farina, the fact that he he was a detective, he knows the language and the nomenclature of like of detectives of how to

Speaker 3: but this is like FBI head too, so that's slightly slightly different situation.

Speaker 4: Uh, but but just being a cop.

Speaker 3: Being a guy that's in that

Speaker 4: yeah, being a cop, being uh being uh knowing how you know um knowing how to move, knowing how to dress, knowing how to how to carry himself in those

Speaker 3: moments and to deal with these other people specifically, like I said, my favorite scene of his in that movie, he's you know, because you start off the movie with him talking to William Peterson, yeah, and my favorite scene is just when he's mean mugging your guy, and it's just like he just looking like you're bad at your job. He's doing all of that with his face without saying it.

Yeah, and then he like bitches away and it's just like out of here, nigga. I got it. So here's here's the the last two things I want to touch on as far as the best scenes and attention. I think the Tooth Fairy Sly Show is really good when Freddy's being sort of tortured. Ooh, yeah. Because it's just like he's really getting across who he is, and this is his really his first scene. Yeah. And it's just like this guy's terrifying. Yeah. Like, I I don't want to be Freddy right now. Sorry. Uh you know, that seat's gonna be hot.

Speaker 4: You feel like you you feel like you are him in that scene. Yes. Strapped to this chair, forced to look at This horrible stuff.

Speaker 3: And with the threat of your eyelids being stapled open. Ugh. Damn, dude. And the last thing I got, we we touched on this uh, you know, in in at length earlier, but I think it belongs in here. Just the final confrontation, just you know,

Speaker 4: caught this nigga th as he jumps through the window.

Speaker 3: He stops his momentum to

Speaker 4: refrigerator and just like with that claw.

Speaker 3: He's like, here's an RC Cola. Twenty through his fridge, like. And then it was a fully stock fridge. It's not like look, he's like, I am a serial killer. However, I did grocery shop today. And I enjoyed ice sauce. Oh, there's other people coming. I'm gonna shoot them.

Speaker 4: But how does he live? Like, how I wonder how he This is

Speaker 3: why I'm thinking that show will work. Like, what is this dude's thing?

Speaker 4: I mean, so maybe maybe Manhunter could could exist as a as a miniseries. Um I want Michael Man and do it, though. Dollar Eyed. I mean. But then it's like, no, but here's the problem is you can't make that, you can't make it like don't make it woke. No, no, don't make it woke. Like, make it make it a killer. Like, make it like brutal.

Speaker 3: Yeah, we gotta get to the stage of like why are we here? I the questions that I would have mainly would be why is he killing families? That's that's sort of the question you have. It's like, did you lose your family?

How did you lose your family? What kind of training do you have? Because obviously you have some training. You're one armed shotgun and cops. Yeah, yeah.

With minimal provocation. It's like that scene, and they talk about it in his meme where the cop is like in uh what is it, Dark Knight, and he's telling like uh the Joker, well, it was a guy driving a uh 16-wheeler, and he's like, you can't park here, and the Joker just pops up blessing.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 3: It's like he did not wait. He upped that thing and shot this guy in the face.

Speaker 4: I think they said the Joker might have been an ex-soldier. That tracks. But like he uh just I

Speaker 3: mean the guy, the driver didn't even move. He's like, this guy's gonna shoot you.

Speaker 4: He had a sh- I mean, you ever been near a shotgun when it's fire? It's terrifying. It is fucking loud. Michael Mann leveled out. His ear joke should be blown out. He's like, I didn't even hear it.

Speaker 3: He's like, oh, he shot you? Damn, I didn't even hear that. I can't hear anything. He shoots people around me all the time.

Speaker 4: Just like I mean, and the Joker had a switch too. You remember? Dark Knight? Yes. The Joker had a switch. He had a He had a two-tone Glock. The Joker's just a hot boy, actually. Chrome. Yeah, the Chrome, the Chrome slide and a switch. He lets he let that shit go. He with the extendo. The extendo clip. Let's not forget.

Speaker 3: The joke was just gonna have a Hellcat next. Joker's There's Hellcat's in Gotham suddenly. Jeez. I'm here for it.

Speaker 4: Hellcat versus the the Battleville.

Speaker 3: I mean, I think the Hellcat wins, though. Probably, yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of it. Did you have any um any final thoughts on the film? Like, where's it sort of because you, you know, where does it rank for you in terms of Michael Mann films? Because you're a Michael Mann guy.

Speaker 4: Uh Is it the top five, top three. Definitely top five. Okay. Uh I still, you know, it's funny, because I still put I it. I put thief above heat for me. You like thief a lot. Because it's more raw.

There's a rawness to it that I mean I love Heat. He's more operating in a way than thief. He was more Mike Man's fresh out, but it's still got the bones of like, it's still got the cool. Yeah. It's still fucking like this is fucking amazing. Yeah.

You know, like, and it just it feels. I mean, just the lore of it too, and I think it spills over into Manhunter. With with Thief, he's got the guys that feel the real new Neil Macaulay. Yeah. Chuck Adamson. Yeah. Is a cop beating up, tuning up the fucking uh the main character, um, James Conn. Yeah. Along with Jane, like John Santucci playing a cop. John Satucci is the real thief that they base the fucking movie off of. Right.

It brought his tools for the for the execution of the of the hits of the crimes. It's only a cop um in there along with some other guys. But these aren't like I like what these aren't like actor actors. These are real people.

Speaker 3: Yeah, because he has um, what is it? I think one of the guys in the heat is actually like a bank robber or something.

Speaker 4: Uh one of one of the the the uh he gave him uh uh an advisory consultant.

Speaker 3: Um I'm thinking of a different movie. I'm thinking I'm thinking, I'm sorry, not it's not Michael Man, it's Reservoir Dogs and one of the guys that was in the crew.

Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's the same guy. Okay, it's the same guy. Same guy we're talking about. Yeah. Um he wrote a book called Don't Be So Fierce. Yeah. Uh Mr. Blue Boom in Reservoir Dogs was Eddie Bunker. Yes. Eddie Bunker.

It's a good name, by the way. Eddie Bunker was the Michael Mann's uh one of the advisors in Heats because Eddie Bunker um, because of the just he was an old time LA bank robber. Yeah.

They should have done more than Eddie Bunker in in um Reservoir Dogs. He's such a fucking legendary dude. Yeah. It's crazy.

He has an amazing face. You know. But like he's smoking fucking cigar, just like. So look. But yeah.

Just like I love I love that thread though of three Michael Man movies. But I think, yeah, Thief. I go thief, probably then Manhunter. And then Heats. And then what up. I like collateral a lot. Collateral, I probably put that at number five.

Okay. I mean, well, because Insider's amazing. The insider's amazing. Collateral, a love collateral as a, for what it what it's about, what it is. It's a small contained movie. Yeah. About one night. And that I mean, it's just the fucking Mozambique drill. Like, but see, Tom Cruise dresses like Neil McCauley. The gray man.

Speaker 3: Did he have then he has Will Graham's hair? Then he has Will Graham's hair. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Because he's prematurely gray. It's like there's this thread he has through all these movies, you know. Um, time is luck, you know, get clean shots, watch your backgrounds, you know. Al Pacino almost is like, you know, could be like another Will Graham stand-in, you know. We'll grab from uh Lip 9 LA.

Speaker 3: I was gonna say he turns into he turns into Dennis Farina and heat.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. But imagine Dennis Arena were in heat, actually. Yeah, yeah. Damn. But he had Al Pacillo and uh Robin De Niro, that was the whole crux of it. But just seeing them face off or what have you. Yeah.

Speaker 3: So that's that's sure your your ranking or what have you.

Speaker 4: Uh I I think so. I mean, I'm I'm saying that now.

Speaker 3: But your your four is kind of open though. You don't have a four, you haven't filled it in with a four uh well the I said the insider. Oh, yeah.

The Insider you did. And then collateral by five. Yeah, yeah. Fifth. I'm not sure what mine would be. I think when I do my rankings, it's what have I seen the most?

Yeah. Or I have to have seen it probably at least twice to really rank it. I've only seen Thief once. I enjoyed Thief. I've only seen uh collateral once. I've seen collateral like a couple years ago.

I've seen Heat the Most, then followed by by Manhunter, and I rank them pretty high. Yeah, but um, I think mine's is incomplete because it hasn't hit that sort of that number. Yeah. Of like, have I seen these enough times? But I do have a predilection towards something set in the 80s, so I kind of give Manhunter that. Have you seen Ferrari? No. So watch Ferrari.

Speaker 4: Okay. See what you think. It's um it's set in the 50s, ends of Ferrari. Okay. Uh but it's Michael Mann is like Michael Man's like Trump's age. He's like 80. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um still firing, you know. They wouldn't do heat too.

Speaker 3: Uh, I mean, the gas rumors and all.

Speaker 4: I don't know how I feel about that. I feel like I feel like you should leave the masterpiece where it is, but it just

Speaker 3: feels like it's a stunt casting of a bunch of different people who like this could be really good or could be really pissing off some people.

Speaker 4: The energy it takes to make a movie like that is hellish.

Speaker 3: I mean, your man's um really sky does a thousand, and he's making movies like it's like he's working on something every couple of years.

Speaker 4: But the cohesiveness of those movies isn't is holding up.

Speaker 3: It's true, but it's like he's still making making stuff, and he's he's like, I still have Blade Runner and and aliens. Alien, rather. I mean, absolutely.

Speaker 4: And those movies are are Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3: Um But it's like the thing is it's almost this this thing on creativity. It's like, are you working? Are you making stuff that you're willing to put out? And I think that that's the thing that comes out of uh uh Michael Mann sort of approach of the thing that I've gotten from him or I've heard about with his work is that he really wants to do the thing that he wants to do. And if it's not that he's not gonna do it, and that's something that's really admirable, especially with we can now buy you to make the thing that we want, and we want to stick your name on it and take the thing from it that comes with your name, and it's just like we see people doing it all the time because you know, integrity will have you as sort of marred by chasing the bag, as it were. Yeah, but I think like his career's been sort of associated with these are the things I want to make. I don't care if you like them or not, but I'm gonna take my time on them and I'm gonna do the things that I want to make.

And you mentioned earlier those the two movies, you mentioned Public Enemy, and what was the other one with Ferrari? Um it's just like, well, those aren't as good as the other ones. It's like, yeah, but he made those on his terms and how he wanted to make them.

So you know, from a creative and artistic and uh a sort of art perspective as you were touching on with with Manhunter, it's just like well, if you're coming from a sensibility of this is art, he's able to do the thing that he wants. And that's all that really matters. So I think that's I think we got it. Yeah.

Any um any any uh things you any recommendations? How many times do you think people should watch this? Should he watch this movie? Check it out. Is it a hump or a dump? Check out Manhunter.

Speaker 4: Yeah, hope it. Um a pump and dump. No, I don't want to say pump and dump. I would say like you know, slow caress. Wow. Um I mean it's it's just it's an amazing slow caress is really funny. It's an amazing movie. Uh it's it's amazing. I watch it every so often. It feels like like a nice it feels like a dream almost in some respects. Because the music plays our direction. Um it feels oh forgot about in terms of my my man's umology, forget about my vice.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, in terms of contributions. I didn't rank that one. That's not the movie, my voice. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a little long.

Speaker 4: I still I still kind of like it, but I it could

Speaker 3: be it's kind of goes to your heat thing, though. Yeah. Like I wish you didn't touch it. Cause I I don't care what you're doing.

Speaker 4: Well, Krasinski's making making the new the new Mime Vice with uh we we talked about it. Yes, yes. Uh I'm not against that. I think we Rockstar Games do a Miami Vice movie. They basically did it anyway. It's just just here you go. Here you go.

Speaker 3: And the thing is, because it's set in the 80s. I I think my issue with the the movie, Michael Mann uh movie of Miami Vice, it's set contemporarily, and it's like I don't care about that.

Speaker 4: But I but I think that's actually kind of genius because like he's saying, okay, this is what these guys would really be. No, I I hear you. I mean, whether you like the the plot or not, you know, but this is what these kind of cops in the setting would really be like. And it's just that oh, I mean, take away all the all the fucking colorful whatever. I mean, it's like the this is this is a more aggressive Miami. You know, I think I think to Colin Farrell's point, the relationships weren't as solid in the movie. Him and Jimmy Fox. Also, Jimmy, I heard Jimmy Fox was like, bro, it's fucking entourage and it's disrupting shit.

Speaker 3: Because it's sort of I I just got an Academy of War. I'm gonna get a dick.

Speaker 4: Yeah, well, he wanted his name over. What's the team player?

Speaker 3: That sounds that sounds based on the timing. It sounds like it would be a thing. And it's like, no, no, no.

Speaker 4: You like make the movie good. Yeah.

Speaker 3: And and I think when it came to because I remember when that casting, and that's like 2006. Yeah. I was just like, why is Jamie Fox in this movie? That was literally my my main question. I'm saying, in in you know, as you talked about, like uh Eddie Bunker having like an amazing face. I was like, I need a better face from from my my tubs. Yeah, yeah.

And it's like not even better hair, I need a better face. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, I get you, Jamie. That's fine. It's fine. Like, Colin, you're great.

I thought Columbus was a myth. Yeah. And um, but it's just like, and he was in like a time where it's like, you need a hit, because at that point, that was what two years removed from Alexander, and it was like

Speaker 4: it'd be funny, but but he but it but it takes think about how actors have to if you survive what you would learn from an Alexander, because I don't I don't think it's a terrible movie.

Speaker 3: Again, it's just like a thing that's too long and overindulgent. It's it's yeah, but it's not I mean

Speaker 4: And what what AI can do now and generating what these guys would actually look and feel like, it's you know, it's a different thing. Yeah, actors like Colin Farrell is is uh it's interesting what kind of actor he became like with with uh the penguin. Yeah, he's very holy fuck that was amazing,

Speaker 3: and I think he's he's thrown out more interesting performances, and this is just end up turning into so we we should be cutting this soon. It ended up turning into a whole conversation around Colin Farrell who's not in any of this time. No, no, no. But um, but yeah, I think having you're right. I think having that experience and having a a humbling, if you will, that happens in a big bad way. Yeah, and it's just like, yeah, this movie has pretty much all the color, all of them budget, all of the things you could ever want.

And then it didn't work. Yeah, and you're the person on the cover. Yeah, so the failures associated with you, not the director, not the marketing, but it's you. It's almost like you're the quarterback for this movie, and the team lost. Yeah, you got blown out, actually. Yeah, and everyone's overpaid. So it's just like, you know, you learn something from that to really show like I know how to do this, you know, I know how to act.

And um have these performances over the last five to ten years that have been really good. You start looking at things that he was in, remember what was it, 2003? He was in like phone booth, it's like a bad movie.

I saw that in theaters. Like, it shouldn't be good. Yeah, the idea is a throwback to something from the 60s. It feels like it. This is not a good movie. And it might be because of you. Oof. No shots, but also shots. Uh so that's what we got.

We got Manhunter, guys. So thank you for listening. Check out that film. It's uh I watched it on on Amazon, actually. But it's also on Tubi. I got on YouTube. Of course you did. And uh, but you know, the other thing I'll say, buy physical media. Let's do physical media.

Speaker 4: Yes, please. Oh man. Yes.

Speaker 3: So there we got, thank you, David Abada, for coming back on. Well, coming on for the first time. The first this the back on to the network for the first time on this particular podcast.

Speaker 4: Let's pick a pocket. We're talking about last time.