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[SPEAKER_02]: Google Ads is for people we are advertising to real people who need to buy real things for real reasons and oftentimes we can be way too caught up in data and not insight and I think insight is about understand them people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the keep optimizing podcast to increase your traffic improve your conversion rates and grow your profits.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas the host of this e-commerce marketing focus podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar with us, well, we release five episode mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic at a time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones released on Wednesdays, I get into a different expert to explore the latest advice on making that marketing method work for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then after each five episode mini series, we take a week off to give you time to take action or what you've learnt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now at the moment we are picking up the Google ads thread again.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're going back to one of my favorite channels.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So far in the episodes we've been pretty practical and got into the detail of Google ads.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The first episode was all about the new stuff that you should be paying attention to in Google ads.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The second episode was all about maps and Google local business type stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So if you've got physical stores, this time we're going
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[SPEAKER_01]: bigger picture.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're looking at what you should be doing as a result of the huge changes in Google ads over the last couple of years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about what that means if you're a strategy, how you now build success on the platform.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We'll be talking about the strategic decisions you need to make or we're talking about what you need to get really good at what you can now ignore, all that's coming up and my guest gives some really, really good inside
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[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with Google ads expert Jérhaden.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Jér is the chief digital officer at core optimization as it has been deep, deep, deep in performance marketing for over a decade.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he's somehow, also finds time to be a digital marketing lecturer.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Jérs worked across various sectors and for many clients, winning awards and frequently driving triple digit year on year growth.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Jér.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Chloe.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The loads we hear and
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[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome to have you on the show.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How did you get into the wonderful world that is Google Habs?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was not a linear journey.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I would say I actually started off doing journalism and visual media after school.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I actually had my own personal blog at the time that was directed to course and I actually found that way more interesting than the journalism side of things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I actually remember Googling about halfway through the course like what can I do with a degree a journalism degree that isn't journalism.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things that came up was copywriting and copyright and plus they might might interest them blogging on a try to understand traffic led me to Google ads and it's been a love affair ever since.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's really where
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's mad, normally when I'm asking people that, especially when we're talking about Google ads.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's all people who've started out with data data, but both you and one of our other guests in this series have started from the copy angle.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've had an SEO copy specialist who's now all about the Google ads, and we've got you who started with journalism and copywriting is now all about the Google ads.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's weak because you don't normally, when I notice all right keywords, but you don't so naturally put copywriting
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[SPEAKER_01]: with performance marketing?
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[SPEAKER_02]: No, you don't.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think that was such a challenge at the time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like having come from that copywriting background, keeping doing something clever and engaging people with such tight constraints of character limits and and everything else.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I think one of the other things that really interested me when I did look around was it seemed like the bigger the
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know why that was the case, even as a junior who didn't work in the industry and was trying to maybe break in and do something, you know, fall on excitement when I was reading Do Black Copy in general.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I was saying, God maybe somebody's isn't that exciting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, Paris and me from a copyright and perspective,
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we'll probably get on to talk about it today, but I think that's where DuBelads has evolved over the last few years and will continue to evolve as the creativity so it's rather than just being, like you say, data data data all of the time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I ran a Google Ads agency and did a lot of Google Ads back, like 10, 15 years ago.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And back then, the ad copy was just something you've got done.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You might occasionally do some split tests or something.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But basically, it was just get it done.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then all the performance came from tweaking bits, tweaking keywords, tweaking, where the ad appeared, not the ad itself, which retrospect is absolutely mad.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not that world anymore anyway.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I remember my first age and see how I worked in is my first PVC job.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I was right in copy in Excel.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it just felt mad to me because tells us the rules.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it was just the most, like, probably an inspiring way to, like, it's so much better to see where copy sits and, and, and how it works in a, but I guess, like, you say hindsight is beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think with
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[SPEAKER_02]: Google now taking a lot of the day-to-day bidding and data optimizations and other those things, it's only going one way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's towards creative and copy and engaging people through Google ads.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously now just visually as well as text.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I want to take us into our big topic today and I think it does kind of feed off what you're talking about, but it's the bigger picture part of it, isn't it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like there's been all these little micro changes over the last kind of five years to Google as we've slowly been getting used to, certainly being getting used to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think some businesses have kind of done a...
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[SPEAKER_01]: just like a slow evolution, but there's arguably, but very arguably, a case of going hold on a second, stop.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at what Google Ads is now today and actually go, how should we be using it in the business?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, how do you pick the Google Ads strategy you could actually be doing?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Joe, where do we start on that journey?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What are the key factors that help us work out what Google Ads strategy we should be following?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're dead right, Chloe, and I think one of the, or I think that area to start is people.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's so easily forgotten and so just what is perceived as such a technical platform.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's the way the industry has built the narrative around Google ads that you are constantly, like almost like you're in the matrix, moving these dials all day in order to drive performance that actually oftentimes people and insight is forgotten.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of those micro changes within the platform that you spoke about have have changed things like the PMAX come along, now PMAX being spit out so you can understand video versus maps, etc.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I actually think arguably the biggest change for Google ads over the last 18 months has been Google analytics and and held ads changed in terms of of
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[SPEAKER_02]: because what it's done is it's forced people to look at what Google ad strives for the business at a broader level because it doesn't marry up as well, they otherwise is what it used to.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it is the perfect time now for, you know, markers and senior leaders to decide where Google ad's fits in a broader strategy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just lower phone anymore.
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[SPEAKER_02]: YouTube isn't lower phone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It used to be obviously you pick brown, they're generic, and it's just as close to social now as it's ever been, you know, and in terms of what it can deliver.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Would it be fair to say that there's no point in embarking on a full review of where Google Ads fits?
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you haven't got your tracking data and all that data feeding back into Google, so it can actually give you decent results.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like, get your data stacks sorted first, understand your customer, and then start reviewing your strategy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Only, I think you're exactly right there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the other things to understand is just the search landscape and how it's changed and whether people are bidding on key words or are looking at informational searches in the same way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're looking at to chat to you with ease and the jeminal is now where people are literally looking to get coached
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[SPEAKER_02]: into whatever they're looking for, you're like, I was looking for a watch recently and I think almost at on 50 searches on chat to be paid before my first one on Google.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think on their standing, Elwood customer uses search as a whole, even outside of Google ads and is an important for step these days.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And from there you can look at, well, what exactly needs to be going from
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[SPEAKER_02]: But again, it's the insight, it's getting the data correct so that you can pull out an insight that allows you to farm from a Google Ads perspective.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what sort of strategic shifts are you seeing people making at the moment as a result of this analysis and these changes?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the conversational searches have become huge.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we're seeing a lot more long-tailed conversational search.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like if you remember, maybe even just three years, but before Chati Bete was a thing, like if you're looking for a hotel in Spain, you'd literally dive in a hotel in Spain, troubles your results.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You might do the first five or six results.
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[SPEAKER_02]: where is now?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think I was telling you before the interview was in Spain last week, but I'm saying I need a hotel in Spain.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's good for a nine-month-old baby that has a restaurant we've been walking this and that will hold buggy, but my search has become a lot more conversational and long.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess what that means for all says,
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[SPEAKER_02]: the way in which we set up our content and set up our odds needs to collect the interest of a much broader range of questions than what it did in the past.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Also means competition is much higher.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the cut competition is BS, as the long tail becomes ever greater.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the accuracy of your data, then obviously becomes considered a real more important too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But talking about the ad asset side of this,
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[SPEAKER_01]: If we're talking about your example, I know it's not e-commerce but we'll roll with it because we can all relate to trying to find the right hotel for the baby and the restaurant and all the rest of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, this is now more heavily down to the marketing assets, the ad assets, to help the algorithm realise what we're trying to get across.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you find that people are going about seeing what these long-tailed searches, these conversational searches might be, and then trying to create the ad collateral, the ad assets that will then appeal to that, does that make sense as a question?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It does a course, Chloe, and I think even it's not just the ad assets, but the website itself is an ad asset really.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And oftentimes, you know, as as search markers, like what we were saying at the beginning with, you know, copy being last thing that we think of sometimes it's the same for where you send someone onto the website, so the content that's being created,
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[SPEAKER_02]: people expected to speak to them on where they are with their journey, which is that conversation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So even for econ brands, it's not just about sending someone directly to the product page.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If their search is more information, they're not ready to buy yet.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's still having the content on the website and use and search from a mid to operational perspective.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And then, as you say, from an adds asset perspective, you obviously can do dynamic ads, but you're not going to be able to create ads for absolutely every long-tailed keyword research.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's never going to be one-to-one advertising, what being able to bring it up a level is important.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so you can collect a lot of those long-tailed keywords.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's kind of a fundamentally different way of approaching ads for every body.
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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, what level of fun ought to go at?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Are there certain things that they've got certain skew counts?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not worth considering.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Is it, you know, does AOV come in as a factor with the strategies which I don't want to work?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you will think having your Google ads connected with first party data is awfully essential for any e-comm business these days.
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[SPEAKER_02]: As we know, with Google Auto Optimizing, it can auto optimize towards the wrong team as well if it's not marked carry.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So what I mean by that is if you've got two different types of customers, and one has a higher lifetime value, or are you understand that maybe the first purchase isn't
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[SPEAKER_02]: a higher ALV with that customer over the longer term is more likely to be worth more to the business that you need to be able to steer Google ads towards that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you can do that in two ways that's connecting with your CRM data and your customer database.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's also what happened to correct tags, the correct strategy down in place in the first instance.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But totally
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[SPEAKER_02]: trying to chase, you know, sales across every single one of those skills, when folks and on your top 50, whatever that might look like is actually a better strategy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So focus and prioritization clearly important here from, you know, the example you said, you know, chasing down 10,000 skis or actually let's go for the top 5% zero in on those and actually make this work for us.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's also some areas within Google ads that it's not necessarily worthwhile for everyone to to leverage.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can imagine some brands are not yet ready to go deep top of funnel big on YouTube.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I know there's not like a, it's not very easy, completely easy to control that, but but is that something which, which you see brand's doing is kind of like we're going to focus on getting this bit right first, they're going to go all about the product feed for a bit and the website and then we'll expand out to other areas.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a valid approach?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the biggest things that we see when we're audit in new brands in particular is not using PMACs and picking those placements strategically.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And a good example of that is we work with an E-com brand in the US as of the last couple of months, but when we initially did in order for them, 90% of our budget had gone into Google Maps with in PMACs.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They were absolutely shocked to find that out.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that was maybe not a choice made initially because the PMACs would have been set up historically.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But Google now gives us the ability to look in and see, well, is the score for doing well?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Is it to text ads into displays, YouTube, et cetera?
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[SPEAKER_02]: But we don't see, probably, as many brands as what you'd think looking into those placements to understand,
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[SPEAKER_02]: what they're trying to do when changing the crate of a carding me.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because if you look at those, P-Max is a mixture of upper-formal and lower-formal, but it's kind of being designed to be like, we're going to get you sales and we're going to drive your business forward.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if you ask most CMOs or you know, senior market leaders, they would tell me that P-Max is lower-formal.
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[SPEAKER_02]: but when you look into it it might not be so I think that that's a great area to make a quick change to on their stand well did number one did you know that's where your ad was placed because Google ad should not be a black box and number two is the creative built in the correct way for each of those places.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in that example where, or I don't usually dig into that client, but in an example where you suddenly discover all your ad spends going on maps and you really wish it wasn't.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Is that become a problem because Google's Google and we want no Google likes to do Google things?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it because the wrong objectives have been set up?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like someone set up the goal to go after footfall or something?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it because the wrong data's being fed back in
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[SPEAKER_01]: I guess what I'm trying to say is how do we, how do we go about actually fixing it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's not like flick one switch and it's done, is it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So that was exactly it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We saw that that brand themselves, someone had settled around goal initially.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that had led Google like we were saying earlier to auto-optimalize towards the
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[SPEAKER_02]: ultra transparent when you log into the dashboard exactly where your ads are at times it's very easy especially if you're working with a toward parking agency who you're kind of have to trust as your expert that this is just going well.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know that brand in particular had decided that their single source of truth wouldn't be a platform.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why it wasn't spotted.
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[SPEAKER_02]: They had used their CMS to understand it was Shopify in this instance where Google ads revenue would come from.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why that was missed.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it goes back to the question around how you set up your strategy if the brand had looked first and said, well, they do actually have bricks and mortar stores.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe they got the agency got briefed wrong a few years ago.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But half of the ad budget should have been going full file
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[SPEAKER_02]: should be on the e-commerce revenue or whatever that might look like, but that wasn't clear, upfront.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of one of those yearly check-ins, isn't it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's these days, we're good guys.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What are our, what assets have we actually given it?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What, what data are we feeding in?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's still doing what it should be doing, and actually for bigger brands a lot more often than yearly.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Any other kind of critical things that you're seeing people add into their strategy or remove from their strategy when they go through this kind of rebuilding process?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think one of the main things is to always keep an eye on single source to truth.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the commercial numbers overall.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And what I'm seeing a lot with brands is, you know, they might come to us and say, what Google ads is going to be fantastic.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We've got an incredible raw loss.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And they'll start throwing all these acronyms out there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That all sound amazing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And put it is important to remember that raw loss is decoupled from commercial routes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: get the easiest type of customer and that might mean someone that's returning and that might mean someone that's maybe potentially not the strongest customer long-term for the business, but it does come up often where you see, well revenues down to 20% on the website year or year, but Google ads is the only way because because raw asses up, but ultimately that's not the
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[SPEAKER_02]: credit for more profitable sources, which is probably organic or could be email or whatever it might look like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The endless attribution challenge, you know, it's, I always think it's like you pick the the data, the interface that you're going to use to do your day-to-day optimization.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was maybe rough, as you may have decided that's what you're going to do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It may be the shop
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[SPEAKER_01]: Every quarter I reckon, I don't think you're going to go any slower than that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You do a sense check across full attribution and go actually hold on.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Based on what we've changed, based on how the systems have changed, is this still a reasonable expectation and in that scenario, ROS goal is based on an understanding that your Google Ads is bringing in 60% repeat customers and is
20:20.885 --> 20:29.031
[SPEAKER_01]: bringing an AOV that's 20% lower than usual and you know, and whatever the costs are on the likely overlaps, I'll get built into that number.
20:29.471 --> 20:34.755
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like we can't, there is never going to be a perfect attribution because humans are imperfect.
20:35.156 --> 20:39.499
[SPEAKER_01]: So therefore, you have to keep revisiting don't you?
20:39.897 --> 20:44.059
[SPEAKER_02]: It's funny because the amount of arguments that I've been in over the years on attribution.
20:44.159 --> 20:50.562
[SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately, if the business is grown and e-commerce is looking from a website perspective, like that's what matters as a team.
20:50.582 --> 21:05.449
[SPEAKER_02]: And as a group, and I think Google have introduced a couple of really interesting new features, like target net new customers within performance maxes where you can have a different bidden model based on the fact that someone has never shot
21:06.630 --> 21:18.439
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of business is especially those who have repeat e-comm customers would bite your arm off in order to reach brand new customers because that's ultimately where growth comes from.
21:18.919 --> 21:27.266
[SPEAKER_02]: But oftentimes it's not spoken about and do you speak to brand new customers differently, then you speak to the ones who are going to return anyway.
21:27.986 --> 21:31.209
[SPEAKER_02]: And his Google ads even the most profitable way to get them.
21:31.929 --> 21:37.865
[SPEAKER_02]: Possibly not, I mean, you can exclude people who shops which are before, which in so instances is the right move.
21:38.835 --> 21:40.936
[SPEAKER_01]: But in some instances, as you say, actually isn't.
21:41.036 --> 21:45.438
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a gift selling business, then you probably have people who only come back to you once a year.
21:46.038 --> 21:52.101
[SPEAKER_01]: And fundamentally, you don't care what route they come in via, as long as they definitely come back to you once a year.
21:53.002 --> 21:57.584
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they're not paying attention to your emails for 12 months waiting for Granny's birthday to come around again.
21:58.264 --> 22:03.186
[SPEAKER_01]: All Christmas to come around again when they have to buy for a difficult, auntie bit to the Barbara or whatever.
22:03.206 --> 22:03.466
[SPEAKER_01]: It's
22:05.047 --> 22:15.785
[SPEAKER_01]: industry tricky and you mentioned about the net new customers only but of course that only works if you've fed the right data to Google in the first place so it can correctly identify who's new and who's existing.
22:16.295 --> 22:18.095
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's totally like it.
22:18.195 --> 22:20.276
[SPEAKER_02]: It keeps coming back to the same tree things.
22:20.296 --> 22:20.656
[SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't it?
22:20.756 --> 22:26.777
[SPEAKER_02]: It's AI data and creativity at the tree pillars from what is going to drive route with your Google ads.
22:27.297 --> 22:31.898
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think beforehand, maybe even five years ago, we would have been talking about didn't models.
22:31.998 --> 22:37.739
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, dashboards within the platform, they parent optimizations, all these sort of things.
22:38.099 --> 22:43.700
[SPEAKER_02]: But it does feel like Google ads is at a juncture and where it's matured.
22:43.740 --> 22:44.180
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost
22:44.840 --> 23:02.133
[SPEAKER_02]: be common like maybe social in in some ways but even more so like offline media like when you're looking at like well you put money into this thing and and you know you see the tail starting to ring more online Google ads is is be common more like that now which is very interesting.
23:02.940 --> 23:03.460
[SPEAKER_01]: definitely.
23:03.480 --> 23:06.743
[SPEAKER_01]: Well look, Ger, thank you so much for explaining all of that to us.
23:06.783 --> 23:08.504
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been great picking your brains about it all.
23:08.924 --> 23:14.888
[SPEAKER_01]: This does make sure you stay tuned right to the end because you do not want to miss out on jazz inside the tips on Google Ads.
23:14.988 --> 23:17.130
[SPEAKER_01]: My suggestions for other ways we can help you.
23:19.217 --> 23:19.697
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Jess.
23:19.798 --> 23:23.201
[SPEAKER_01]: So far, we've gone deep into picking your best Google Ads strategy.
23:23.621 --> 23:27.404
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you get to wear us with your insider knowledge about the whole of Google Ads.
23:27.484 --> 23:35.251
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, your answer can be about anything to do with Google Ads, which of course does include everything we've already been talking about.
23:35.331 --> 23:36.152
[SPEAKER_01]: Jess, are you ready?
23:36.592 --> 23:37.353
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I'm ready.
23:38.034 --> 23:39.935
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's start with Neuby Advice.
23:40.035 --> 23:46.101
[SPEAKER_01]: If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
23:46.946 --> 23:53.108
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, and it is definitely a repeat, but I think it is worth repeating is that Google adds is for people.
23:53.648 --> 23:58.750
[SPEAKER_02]: We are advertising the real people who need to buy real things for real reasons.
23:59.591 --> 24:04.632
[SPEAKER_02]: And oftentimes we can be way too caught up in data and not insight.
24:05.273 --> 24:07.754
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think insight is about understanding people.
24:08.434 --> 24:11.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's incredible resources within Google even the
24:14.696 --> 24:18.739
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a book from Steve and Stavowitz, and he's next Google engineer.
24:19.219 --> 24:24.984
[SPEAKER_02]: And he talks about Google's search data being the most important data set on the human psyche ever.
24:25.644 --> 24:34.591
[SPEAKER_02]: And oftentimes, we don't think of that as, you know, from a market here, perspective, we're too busy thinking about tactics, but it really does help you understand people.
24:35.151 --> 24:40.756
[SPEAKER_02]: So instead of looking at those keywords from it, I'm gonna bid on this, some that CBC is that,
24:44.198 --> 24:51.440
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is how someone searches for my products, and this is how I'm going to reach them, and this is how they need to be spoken to in order for me to do that.
24:52.461 --> 24:54.061
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're absolutely spot on there.
24:54.121 --> 24:54.421
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
24:54.761 --> 24:59.903
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing so what's your favorite way to improve performance.
25:00.572 --> 25:07.861
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, some of which is, is, is covered, uh, maybe, but I think constantly keeping your eye on the bigger picture.
25:07.881 --> 25:16.112
[SPEAKER_02]: So, not optimising towards channel-specific metrics, and ensuring that there is tangible growth, and whatever way,
25:16.592 --> 25:24.297
[SPEAKER_02]: tangible growth is agreed within your strategy, within the business that you're working in, whether that's again brand new customers, that could be customer lifetime value.
25:24.918 --> 25:43.351
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be reaching people, but they'll perform them, but understand that role that Google has to play and keep an eye on the bigger picture, which is overall e-cams sales, is sometimes a stronger way to optimize them being caught up within the platform and saying, John, I'm going to spend a little bit more on Monday morning's at this time, because it looks like
25:45.622 --> 25:50.203
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, if someone at least wants to learn more, is there a cheap or free resource you would recommend?
25:50.703 --> 25:53.004
[SPEAKER_02]: Google skills shop, I think, is fantastic.
25:53.164 --> 25:55.005
[SPEAKER_02]: In general, it's totally free.
25:55.585 --> 26:03.307
[SPEAKER_02]: I know in an area agency, we make sure everyone's up to data on all their Google certificates, because they are so important.
26:03.407 --> 26:12.870
[SPEAKER_02]: And even for someone that's working in the industry, like I'm over a decade now, working with Google ads, I still need to study a little bit every now and then, and because everything changes so often,
26:13.330 --> 26:25.380
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, even though you know, you said yourself like how much it's changed in 18 months, what it would look like again in 18 months and it's kind of it's almost cliche to say how quick digital market moves.
26:25.900 --> 26:34.968
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think Google ads out of all the digital channels and has really changed entirely over the last two years or so.
26:35.771 --> 26:36.071
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
26:36.492 --> 26:47.962
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost unrecognizable in terms of how you, the decisions you have to make, how you optimise it, how you make it deliver, while still looking 99% the same on the front end.
26:48.483 --> 26:49.123
[SPEAKER_02]: Agreed.
26:49.904 --> 26:50.385
[SPEAKER_02]: That is true.
26:50.445 --> 26:53.367
[SPEAKER_02]: It looks the exact same, but can be used in a totally different way.
26:54.028 --> 26:54.849
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, completely.
26:54.949 --> 26:55.249
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
26:55.329 --> 26:56.610
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, crystal ball time.
26:56.630 --> 26:59.953
[SPEAKER_01]: What's coming up in the next six to 12 months that we should be getting ready for?
27:00.053 --> 27:01.495
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell you, try and predict.
27:02.001 --> 27:08.906
[SPEAKER_02]: So obviously a very tough question, but AI is what's going for the platform in a big way.
27:09.406 --> 27:19.413
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the date day optimizations that we would have done when we were in platform has already changed totally, but that's only going to become further.
27:19.953 --> 27:23.176
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's going to push us into what we've already spoke about.
27:23.216 --> 27:24.057
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be creative.
27:24.077 --> 27:30.002
[SPEAKER_02]: The Google ads will be more about ensuring your reach and the right customers because you've got the right data.
27:30.562 --> 27:35.627
[SPEAKER_02]: You have the right creative, which has been forgotten about over the last few years.
27:36.107 --> 27:40.271
[SPEAKER_02]: And that you're using AI to optimize in the correct way.
27:40.951 --> 27:44.094
[SPEAKER_02]: And that has changed, totally, because it used to be so platformed.
27:45.075 --> 28:02.986
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're going to come out of this peak season with case studies, Google Ads Case Studies really proving the case of those who embrace creative and data are going to be the ones who suddenly are performing so much further ahead of everybody else in the Google Ads space.
28:03.526 --> 28:14.971
[SPEAKER_01]: that next year's going to be kind of like the the up-skilling acid creation, data integration, crazy fast from kind of January to September, is my my prediction of what this piece is going to lead to.
28:15.843 --> 28:44.322
[SPEAKER_02]: in your dead right and I think what's funny is and it is anecdotal from working with with a lot of different brands is sometimes the bigger brands are actually harder to get the data correct because there's layers of compliance and the Google ads people don't always own the data internally within a brand and smaller brands have this amazing opportunity to be agile and to get in front of what is definitely don't be coming down the tracks in order to win here.
28:45.084 --> 28:55.347
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, before we spend the next three hours talking about that, could you please let the audience know where they can find you and your business if they want to get in touch?
28:56.127 --> 28:56.907
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.
28:56.967 --> 28:58.667
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're core optimization.
28:59.288 --> 29:08.210
[SPEAKER_02]: It's core optimization across our social menus and my email is Jerra at core optimization.com and I'd be delighted to speak to anyone who wants to drop me a mail.
29:08.853 --> 29:09.234
[SPEAKER_01]: Lovely.
29:09.354 --> 29:10.275
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.
29:10.495 --> 29:18.186
[SPEAKER_01]: And thanks so much for being on the podcast and talking about what I think many of finding is a difficult, big picture step change in Google ads.
29:18.226 --> 29:21.911
[SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully I'm sure we have made that a lot more straightforward for many of them.
29:21.952 --> 29:23.574
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Jeff, thanks so much for being here.
29:24.155 --> 29:25.156
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the thanks on what's going on.
29:27.388 --> 29:44.875
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you haven't yet revisited your Google ads strategic activity, what you're doing, why you're doing it, who you're targeting, how you've got these integrations going on, what you're doing on the creative space, what your goals are, if you haven't done that,
29:45.695 --> 29:53.060
[SPEAKER_01]: then I would embark on it straight away because as we've been discussing, the platform has changed so much in the last two, three years.
29:53.881 --> 30:04.689
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't have those foundational things right, which starts with your decision-making, not with feeding data here there and everywhere, then you are not being at the results you should be guessing from your Google Ads spend.
30:05.549 --> 30:06.749
[SPEAKER_01]: now is the time to adapt.
30:07.190 --> 30:17.973
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you can get the links to all those things we discussed, the transcript, important notes and more at keepoptimizing.com or use keepopt.com for such the number of this episode to go to the right page.
30:18.353 --> 30:24.236
[SPEAKER_01]: When you get there please add yourself to our email list so you don't miss out on all the other stuff we share to help you improve your business.
30:24.876 --> 30:27.837
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Keepoptimizing Podcast.
30:27.937 --> 30:30.738
[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to continue your Google Ads
30:31.558 --> 30:52.287
[SPEAKER_01]: Right now, then check out the first episode in this year's mini series, which is episode 319, where we're getting into all the key new stuff, which includes quite a lot of chatter about that net new customers' piece that you're mentioned, so you definitely need to go into that if the oil is prepped up at that.
30:53.027 --> 30:55.829
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can find all our Google ads content either
31:01.511 --> 31:07.994
[SPEAKER_01]: Please do tell your fellow Marks about the show because I want to help us many of you as possible to improve performance of your e-commerce marketing.
31:08.415 --> 31:13.537
[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week and make sure listen to the next episode so we can help you to keep optimizing your marketing.
00:00.551 --> 00:15.345
[SPEAKER_02]: Google Ads is for people we are advertising to real people who need to buy real things for real reasons and oftentimes we can be way too caught up in data and not insight and I think insight is about understand them people.
00:18.108 --> 00:25.035
[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the keep optimizing podcast to increase your traffic improve your conversion rates and grow your profits.
00:27.982 --> 00:29.322
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
00:29.382 --> 00:32.903
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas the host of this e-commerce marketing focus podcast.
00:32.963 --> 00:39.844
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar with us, well, we release five episode mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic at a time.
00:40.784 --> 00:48.706
[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones released on Wednesdays, I get into a different expert to explore the latest advice on making that marketing method work for you.
00:49.166 --> 00:54.707
[SPEAKER_01]: And then after each five episode mini series, we take a week off to give you time to take action or what you've learnt.
00:55.187 --> 00:58.468
[SPEAKER_01]: Now at the moment we are picking up the Google ads thread again.
00:58.528 --> 01:00.569
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we're going back to one of my favorite channels.
01:01.189 --> 01:06.211
[SPEAKER_01]: So far in the episodes we've been pretty practical and got into the detail of Google ads.
01:06.251 --> 01:11.272
[SPEAKER_01]: The first episode was all about the new stuff that you should be paying attention to in Google ads.
01:11.332 --> 01:16.334
[SPEAKER_01]: The second episode was all about maps and Google local business type stuff.
01:16.354 --> 01:19.175
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you've got physical stores, this time we're going
01:19.755 --> 01:20.455
[SPEAKER_01]: bigger picture.
01:20.775 --> 01:28.178
[SPEAKER_01]: We're looking at what you should be doing as a result of the huge changes in Google ads over the last couple of years.
01:28.238 --> 01:32.339
[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about what that means if you're a strategy, how you now build success on the platform.
01:33.300 --> 01:46.184
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll be talking about the strategic decisions you need to make or we're talking about what you need to get really good at what you can now ignore, all that's coming up and my guest gives some really, really good inside
01:50.713 --> 01:54.816
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with Google ads expert Jérhaden.
01:55.177 --> 02:03.003
[SPEAKER_01]: Jér is the chief digital officer at core optimization as it has been deep, deep, deep in performance marketing for over a decade.
02:03.423 --> 02:07.906
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's somehow, also finds time to be a digital marketing lecturer.
02:08.387 --> 02:15.072
[SPEAKER_01]: Jérs worked across various sectors and for many clients, winning awards and frequently driving triple digit year on year growth.
02:15.352 --> 02:15.973
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Jér.
02:16.513 --> 02:17.033
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Chloe.
02:17.214 --> 02:18.194
[SPEAKER_01]: The loads we hear and
02:19.781 --> 02:21.201
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome to have you on the show.
02:21.361 --> 02:24.622
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you get into the wonderful world that is Google Habs?
02:25.243 --> 02:27.743
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was not a linear journey.
02:27.883 --> 02:33.865
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say I actually started off doing journalism and visual media after school.
02:33.925 --> 02:43.488
[SPEAKER_02]: So I actually had my own personal blog at the time that was directed to course and I actually found that way more interesting than the journalism side of things.
02:44.328 --> 02:51.074
[SPEAKER_02]: And I actually remember Googling about halfway through the course like what can I do with a degree a journalism degree that isn't journalism.
02:51.915 --> 03:04.627
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things that came up was copywriting and copyright and plus they might might interest them blogging on a try to understand traffic led me to Google ads and it's been a love affair ever since.
03:04.747 --> 03:04.947
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
03:05.648 --> 03:07.990
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's really where
03:09.834 --> 03:13.537
[SPEAKER_01]: It's mad, normally when I'm asking people that, especially when we're talking about Google ads.
03:14.197 --> 03:22.744
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all people who've started out with data data, but both you and one of our other guests in this series have started from the copy angle.
03:23.104 --> 03:30.749
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had an SEO copy specialist who's now all about the Google ads, and we've got you who started with journalism and copywriting is now all about the Google ads.
03:31.110 --> 03:37.774
[SPEAKER_01]: It's weak because you don't normally, when I notice all right keywords, but you don't so naturally put copywriting
03:38.615 --> 03:39.756
[SPEAKER_01]: with performance marketing?
03:40.136 --> 03:41.057
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you don't.
03:41.137 --> 03:43.199
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that was such a challenge at the time.
03:43.239 --> 03:55.068
[SPEAKER_02]: Like having come from that copywriting background, keeping doing something clever and engaging people with such tight constraints of character limits and and everything else.
03:55.588 --> 04:01.553
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think one of the other things that really interested me when I did look around was it seemed like the bigger the
04:04.335 --> 04:17.084
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know why that was the case, even as a junior who didn't work in the industry and was trying to maybe break in and do something, you know, fall on excitement when I was reading Do Black Copy in general.
04:17.104 --> 04:19.405
[SPEAKER_02]: I was saying, God maybe somebody's isn't that exciting.
04:20.066 --> 04:22.848
[SPEAKER_02]: And for me, Paris and me from a copyright and perspective,
04:23.388 --> 04:37.564
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we'll probably get on to talk about it today, but I think that's where DuBelads has evolved over the last few years and will continue to evolve as the creativity so it's rather than just being, like you say, data data data all of the time.
04:38.363 --> 04:42.686
[SPEAKER_01]: I ran a Google Ads agency and did a lot of Google Ads back, like 10, 15 years ago.
04:43.026 --> 04:46.188
[SPEAKER_01]: And back then, the ad copy was just something you've got done.
04:47.909 --> 04:52.091
[SPEAKER_01]: You might occasionally do some split tests or something.
04:52.111 --> 04:54.172
[SPEAKER_01]: But basically, it was just get it done.
04:54.332 --> 05:03.558
[SPEAKER_01]: And then all the performance came from tweaking bits, tweaking keywords, tweaking, where the ad appeared, not the ad itself, which retrospect is absolutely mad.
05:04.218 --> 05:06.699
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's not that world anymore anyway.
05:07.400 --> 05:11.662
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I remember my first age and see how I worked in is my first PVC job.
05:12.482 --> 05:14.803
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was right in copy in Excel.
05:15.703 --> 05:17.824
[SPEAKER_02]: And it just felt mad to me because tells us the rules.
05:18.265 --> 05:29.830
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was just the most, like, probably an inspiring way to, like, it's so much better to see where copy sits and, and, and how it works in a, but I guess, like, you say hindsight is beautiful.
05:30.090 --> 05:31.911
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think with
05:32.311 --> 05:40.759
[SPEAKER_02]: Google now taking a lot of the day-to-day bidding and data optimizations and other those things, it's only going one way.
05:41.200 --> 05:46.004
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's towards creative and copy and engaging people through Google ads.
05:46.364 --> 05:48.867
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously now just visually as well as text.
05:49.684 --> 05:57.710
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I want to take us into our big topic today and I think it does kind of feed off what you're talking about, but it's the bigger picture part of it, isn't it?
05:57.730 --> 06:03.935
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like there's been all these little micro changes over the last kind of five years to Google as we've slowly been getting used to, certainly being getting used to.
06:04.556 --> 06:06.817
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think some businesses have kind of done a...
06:07.678 --> 06:15.202
[SPEAKER_01]: just like a slow evolution, but there's arguably, but very arguably, a case of going hold on a second, stop.
06:15.222 --> 06:20.904
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at what Google Ads is now today and actually go, how should we be using it in the business?
06:21.825 --> 06:25.867
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, how do you pick the Google Ads strategy you could actually be doing?
06:27.087 --> 06:30.829
[SPEAKER_01]: Joe, where do we start on that journey?
06:30.849 --> 06:36.212
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the key factors that help us work out what Google Ads strategy we should be following?
06:36.718 --> 06:41.919
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're dead right, Chloe, and I think one of the, or I think that area to start is people.
06:42.580 --> 06:48.121
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's so easily forgotten and so just what is perceived as such a technical platform.
06:48.901 --> 07:05.306
[SPEAKER_02]: Because that's the way the industry has built the narrative around Google ads that you are constantly, like almost like you're in the matrix, moving these dials all day in order to drive performance that actually oftentimes people and insight is forgotten.
07:05.766 --> 07:18.135
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of those micro changes within the platform that you spoke about have have changed things like the PMAX come along, now PMAX being spit out so you can understand video versus maps, etc.
07:18.575 --> 07:29.263
[SPEAKER_02]: But I actually think arguably the biggest change for Google ads over the last 18 months has been Google analytics and and held ads changed in terms of of
07:30.684 --> 07:40.653
[SPEAKER_02]: because what it's done is it's forced people to look at what Google ad strives for the business at a broader level because it doesn't marry up as well, they otherwise is what it used to.
07:41.273 --> 07:51.662
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it is the perfect time now for, you know, markers and senior leaders to decide where Google ad's fits in a broader strategy.
07:51.722 --> 07:53.224
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just lower phone anymore.
07:53.804 --> 07:55.245
[SPEAKER_02]: YouTube isn't lower phone.
07:56.086 --> 08:07.053
[SPEAKER_02]: It used to be obviously you pick brown, they're generic, and it's just as close to social now as it's ever been, you know, and in terms of what it can deliver.
08:08.039 --> 08:15.164
[SPEAKER_01]: Would it be fair to say that there's no point in embarking on a full review of where Google Ads fits?
08:15.204 --> 08:22.389
[SPEAKER_01]: If you haven't got your tracking data and all that data feeding back into Google, so it can actually give you decent results.
08:22.409 --> 08:30.014
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like, get your data stacks sorted first, understand your customer, and then start reviewing your strategy.
08:30.670 --> 08:33.773
[SPEAKER_02]: Only, I think you're exactly right there.
08:34.754 --> 08:46.426
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the other things to understand is just the search landscape and how it's changed and whether people are bidding on key words or are looking at informational searches in the same way.
08:46.827 --> 08:51.592
[SPEAKER_02]: You're looking at to chat to you with ease and the jeminal is now where people are literally looking to get coached
08:52.212 --> 09:01.595
[SPEAKER_02]: into whatever they're looking for, you're like, I was looking for a watch recently and I think almost at on 50 searches on chat to be paid before my first one on Google.
09:02.375 --> 09:11.879
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think on their standing, Elwood customer uses search as a whole, even outside of Google ads and is an important for step these days.
09:12.919 --> 09:17.020
[SPEAKER_02]: And from there you can look at, well, what exactly needs to be going from
09:18.741 --> 09:26.323
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, it's the insight, it's getting the data correct so that you can pull out an insight that allows you to farm from a Google Ads perspective.
09:27.024 --> 09:33.986
[SPEAKER_01]: So what sort of strategic shifts are you seeing people making at the moment as a result of this analysis and these changes?
09:34.479 --> 09:36.940
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the conversational searches have become huge.
09:37.300 --> 09:41.621
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're seeing a lot more long-tailed conversational search.
09:41.681 --> 09:52.264
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like if you remember, maybe even just three years, but before Chati Bete was a thing, like if you're looking for a hotel in Spain, you'd literally dive in a hotel in Spain, troubles your results.
09:52.304 --> 09:54.125
[SPEAKER_02]: You might do the first five or six results.
09:54.645 --> 09:55.366
[SPEAKER_02]: where is now?
09:56.307 --> 10:01.473
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I was telling you before the interview was in Spain last week, but I'm saying I need a hotel in Spain.
10:01.493 --> 10:09.924
[SPEAKER_02]: That's good for a nine-month-old baby that has a restaurant we've been walking this and that will hold buggy, but my search has become a lot more conversational and long.
10:10.444 --> 10:12.827
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess what that means for all says,
10:14.312 --> 10:25.604
[SPEAKER_02]: the way in which we set up our content and set up our odds needs to collect the interest of a much broader range of questions than what it did in the past.
10:26.085 --> 10:27.687
[SPEAKER_02]: Also means competition is much higher.
10:28.678 --> 10:33.484
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the cut competition is BS, as the long tail becomes ever greater.
10:33.604 --> 10:37.608
[SPEAKER_01]: And the accuracy of your data, then obviously becomes considered a real more important too.
10:37.989 --> 10:43.796
[SPEAKER_01]: But talking about the ad asset side of this,
10:44.616 --> 10:54.999
[SPEAKER_01]: If we're talking about your example, I know it's not e-commerce but we'll roll with it because we can all relate to trying to find the right hotel for the baby and the restaurant and all the rest of it.
10:55.460 --> 11:05.503
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, this is now more heavily down to the marketing assets, the ad assets, to help the algorithm realise what we're trying to get across.
11:06.643 --> 11:22.213
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you find that people are going about seeing what these long-tailed searches, these conversational searches might be, and then trying to create the ad collateral, the ad assets that will then appeal to that, does that make sense as a question?
11:23.453 --> 11:30.257
[SPEAKER_02]: It does a course, Chloe, and I think even it's not just the ad assets, but the website itself is an ad asset really.
11:30.417 --> 11:45.224
[SPEAKER_02]: And oftentimes, you know, as as search markers, like what we were saying at the beginning with, you know, copy being last thing that we think of sometimes it's the same for where you send someone onto the website, so the content that's being created,
11:45.844 --> 11:51.487
[SPEAKER_02]: people expected to speak to them on where they are with their journey, which is that conversation.
11:52.088 --> 11:57.791
[SPEAKER_02]: So even for econ brands, it's not just about sending someone directly to the product page.
11:58.471 --> 12:02.013
[SPEAKER_02]: If their search is more information, they're not ready to buy yet.
12:02.033 --> 12:08.117
[SPEAKER_02]: It's still having the content on the website and use and search from a mid to operational perspective.
12:09.182 --> 12:19.710
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, as you say, from an adds asset perspective, you obviously can do dynamic ads, but you're not going to be able to create ads for absolutely every long-tailed keyword research.
12:19.730 --> 12:24.434
[SPEAKER_02]: It's never going to be one-to-one advertising, what being able to bring it up a level is important.
12:24.454 --> 12:27.737
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so you can collect a lot of those long-tailed keywords.
12:28.778 --> 12:32.461
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's kind of a fundamentally different way of approaching ads for every body.
12:39.716 --> 12:41.718
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, what level of fun ought to go at?
12:42.139 --> 12:44.161
[SPEAKER_01]: Are there certain things that they've got certain skew counts?
12:44.201 --> 12:46.083
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not worth considering.
12:46.303 --> 12:51.029
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it, you know, does AOV come in as a factor with the strategies which I don't want to work?
12:51.522 --> 12:59.544
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you will think having your Google ads connected with first party data is awfully essential for any e-comm business these days.
13:00.265 --> 13:07.627
[SPEAKER_02]: As we know, with Google Auto Optimizing, it can auto optimize towards the wrong team as well if it's not marked carry.
13:08.087 --> 13:17.170
[SPEAKER_02]: So what I mean by that is if you've got two different types of customers, and one has a higher lifetime value, or are you understand that maybe the first purchase isn't
13:18.190 --> 13:27.752
[SPEAKER_02]: a higher ALV with that customer over the longer term is more likely to be worth more to the business that you need to be able to steer Google ads towards that.
13:28.292 --> 13:33.614
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can do that in two ways that's connecting with your CRM data and your customer database.
13:34.134 --> 13:39.535
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's also what happened to correct tags, the correct strategy down in place in the first instance.
13:40.095 --> 13:41.055
[SPEAKER_02]: But totally
13:48.657 --> 13:58.919
[SPEAKER_02]: trying to chase, you know, sales across every single one of those skills, when folks and on your top 50, whatever that might look like is actually a better strategy.
14:00.020 --> 14:12.582
[SPEAKER_01]: So focus and prioritization clearly important here from, you know, the example you said, you know, chasing down 10,000 skis or actually let's go for the top 5% zero in on those and actually make this work for us.
14:15.123 --> 14:24.914
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also some areas within Google ads that it's not necessarily worthwhile for everyone to to leverage.
14:25.254 --> 14:31.341
[SPEAKER_01]: I can imagine some brands are not yet ready to go deep top of funnel big on YouTube.
14:32.082 --> 14:48.271
[SPEAKER_01]: I know there's not like a, it's not very easy, completely easy to control that, but but is that something which, which you see brand's doing is kind of like we're going to focus on getting this bit right first, they're going to go all about the product feed for a bit and the website and then we'll expand out to other areas.
14:48.351 --> 14:49.692
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that a valid approach?
14:50.197 --> 14:59.862
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the biggest things that we see when we're audit in new brands in particular is not using PMACs and picking those placements strategically.
15:00.442 --> 15:11.828
[SPEAKER_02]: And a good example of that is we work with an E-com brand in the US as of the last couple of months, but when we initially did in order for them, 90% of our budget had gone into Google Maps with in PMACs.
15:12.448 --> 15:14.089
[SPEAKER_02]: They were absolutely shocked to find that out.
15:15.030 --> 15:21.834
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was maybe not a choice made initially because the PMACs would have been set up historically.
15:22.314 --> 15:27.538
[SPEAKER_02]: But Google now gives us the ability to look in and see, well, is the score for doing well?
15:27.598 --> 15:30.559
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it to text ads into displays, YouTube, et cetera?
15:30.940 --> 15:37.104
[SPEAKER_02]: But we don't see, probably, as many brands as what you'd think looking into those placements to understand,
15:37.784 --> 15:40.826
[SPEAKER_02]: what they're trying to do when changing the crate of a carding me.
15:41.166 --> 15:51.832
[SPEAKER_02]: Because if you look at those, P-Max is a mixture of upper-formal and lower-formal, but it's kind of being designed to be like, we're going to get you sales and we're going to drive your business forward.
15:52.412 --> 15:59.376
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you ask most CMOs or you know, senior market leaders, they would tell me that P-Max is lower-formal.
16:00.096 --> 16:15.798
[SPEAKER_02]: but when you look into it it might not be so I think that that's a great area to make a quick change to on their stand well did number one did you know that's where your ad was placed because Google ad should not be a black box and number two is the creative built in the correct way for each of those places.
16:16.982 --> 16:26.904
[SPEAKER_01]: So in that example where, or I don't usually dig into that client, but in an example where you suddenly discover all your ad spends going on maps and you really wish it wasn't.
16:27.445 --> 16:32.606
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that become a problem because Google's Google and we want no Google likes to do Google things?
16:33.126 --> 16:36.707
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it because the wrong objectives have been set up?
16:37.087 --> 16:41.108
[SPEAKER_01]: Like someone set up the goal to go after footfall or something?
16:41.568 --> 16:45.209
[SPEAKER_01]: Or is it because the wrong data's being fed back in
16:46.949 --> 16:50.493
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess what I'm trying to say is how do we, how do we go about actually fixing it?
16:51.054 --> 16:53.316
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's not like flick one switch and it's done, is it?
16:53.716 --> 16:55.078
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was exactly it.
16:55.098 --> 17:00.443
[SPEAKER_02]: We saw that that brand themselves, someone had settled around goal initially.
17:01.064 --> 17:05.769
[SPEAKER_02]: And that had led Google like we were saying earlier to auto-optimalize towards the
17:09.593 --> 17:22.649
[SPEAKER_02]: ultra transparent when you log into the dashboard exactly where your ads are at times it's very easy especially if you're working with a toward parking agency who you're kind of have to trust as your expert that this is just going well.
17:22.669 --> 17:28.015
[SPEAKER_02]: You know that brand in particular had decided that their single source of truth wouldn't be a platform.
17:28.756 --> 17:30.877
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why it wasn't spotted.
17:30.957 --> 17:38.281
[SPEAKER_02]: They had used their CMS to understand it was Shopify in this instance where Google ads revenue would come from.
17:39.042 --> 17:40.463
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why that was missed.
17:41.043 --> 17:49.548
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it goes back to the question around how you set up your strategy if the brand had looked first and said, well, they do actually have bricks and mortar stores.
17:49.928 --> 17:53.210
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe they got the agency got briefed wrong a few years ago.
17:53.250 --> 17:55.911
[SPEAKER_02]: But half of the ad budget should have been going full file
17:56.952 --> 18:02.531
[SPEAKER_02]: should be on the e-commerce revenue or whatever that might look like, but that wasn't clear, upfront.
18:03.223 --> 18:06.504
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of one of those yearly check-ins, isn't it?
18:07.225 --> 18:09.065
[SPEAKER_01]: It's these days, we're good guys.
18:09.646 --> 18:12.287
[SPEAKER_01]: What are our, what assets have we actually given it?
18:12.387 --> 18:14.107
[SPEAKER_01]: What, what data are we feeding in?
18:14.167 --> 18:18.409
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still doing what it should be doing, and actually for bigger brands a lot more often than yearly.
18:19.109 --> 18:28.073
[SPEAKER_01]: Any other kind of critical things that you're seeing people add into their strategy or remove from their strategy when they go through this kind of rebuilding process?
18:28.587 --> 18:33.528
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think one of the main things is to always keep an eye on single source to truth.
18:33.768 --> 18:36.589
[SPEAKER_02]: So the commercial numbers overall.
18:37.149 --> 18:42.370
[SPEAKER_02]: And what I'm seeing a lot with brands is, you know, they might come to us and say, what Google ads is going to be fantastic.
18:42.410 --> 18:43.970
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got an incredible raw loss.
18:44.050 --> 18:46.651
[SPEAKER_02]: And they'll start throwing all these acronyms out there.
18:46.671 --> 18:47.991
[SPEAKER_02]: That all sound amazing.
18:48.531 --> 18:53.552
[SPEAKER_02]: And put it is important to remember that raw loss is decoupled from commercial routes.
18:58.913 --> 19:22.929
[SPEAKER_02]: get the easiest type of customer and that might mean someone that's returning and that might mean someone that's maybe potentially not the strongest customer long-term for the business, but it does come up often where you see, well revenues down to 20% on the website year or year, but Google ads is the only way because because raw asses up, but ultimately that's not the
19:27.952 --> 19:34.574
[SPEAKER_02]: credit for more profitable sources, which is probably organic or could be email or whatever it might look like.
19:35.594 --> 19:47.757
[SPEAKER_01]: The endless attribution challenge, you know, it's, I always think it's like you pick the the data, the interface that you're going to use to do your day-to-day optimization.
19:48.457 --> 19:50.838
[SPEAKER_01]: I was maybe rough, as you may have decided that's what you're going to do.
19:50.858 --> 19:51.498
[SPEAKER_01]: It may be the shop
19:55.619 --> 20:00.160
[SPEAKER_01]: Every quarter I reckon, I don't think you're going to go any slower than that.
20:00.600 --> 20:04.461
[SPEAKER_01]: You do a sense check across full attribution and go actually hold on.
20:05.101 --> 20:20.045
[SPEAKER_01]: Based on what we've changed, based on how the systems have changed, is this still a reasonable expectation and in that scenario, ROS goal is based on an understanding that your Google Ads is bringing in 60% repeat customers and is
20:20.885 --> 20:29.031
[SPEAKER_01]: bringing an AOV that's 20% lower than usual and you know, and whatever the costs are on the likely overlaps, I'll get built into that number.
20:29.471 --> 20:34.755
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like we can't, there is never going to be a perfect attribution because humans are imperfect.
20:35.156 --> 20:39.499
[SPEAKER_01]: So therefore, you have to keep revisiting don't you?
20:39.897 --> 20:44.059
[SPEAKER_02]: It's funny because the amount of arguments that I've been in over the years on attribution.
20:44.159 --> 20:50.562
[SPEAKER_02]: And ultimately, if the business is grown and e-commerce is looking from a website perspective, like that's what matters as a team.
20:50.582 --> 21:05.449
[SPEAKER_02]: And as a group, and I think Google have introduced a couple of really interesting new features, like target net new customers within performance maxes where you can have a different bidden model based on the fact that someone has never shot
21:06.630 --> 21:18.439
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a lot of business is especially those who have repeat e-comm customers would bite your arm off in order to reach brand new customers because that's ultimately where growth comes from.
21:18.919 --> 21:27.266
[SPEAKER_02]: But oftentimes it's not spoken about and do you speak to brand new customers differently, then you speak to the ones who are going to return anyway.
21:27.986 --> 21:31.209
[SPEAKER_02]: And his Google ads even the most profitable way to get them.
21:31.929 --> 21:37.865
[SPEAKER_02]: Possibly not, I mean, you can exclude people who shops which are before, which in so instances is the right move.
21:38.835 --> 21:40.936
[SPEAKER_01]: But in some instances, as you say, actually isn't.
21:41.036 --> 21:45.438
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a gift selling business, then you probably have people who only come back to you once a year.
21:46.038 --> 21:52.101
[SPEAKER_01]: And fundamentally, you don't care what route they come in via, as long as they definitely come back to you once a year.
21:53.002 --> 21:57.584
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they're not paying attention to your emails for 12 months waiting for Granny's birthday to come around again.
21:58.264 --> 22:03.186
[SPEAKER_01]: All Christmas to come around again when they have to buy for a difficult, auntie bit to the Barbara or whatever.
22:03.206 --> 22:03.466
[SPEAKER_01]: It's
22:05.047 --> 22:15.785
[SPEAKER_01]: industry tricky and you mentioned about the net new customers only but of course that only works if you've fed the right data to Google in the first place so it can correctly identify who's new and who's existing.
22:16.295 --> 22:18.095
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's totally like it.
22:18.195 --> 22:20.276
[SPEAKER_02]: It keeps coming back to the same tree things.
22:20.296 --> 22:20.656
[SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't it?
22:20.756 --> 22:26.777
[SPEAKER_02]: It's AI data and creativity at the tree pillars from what is going to drive route with your Google ads.
22:27.297 --> 22:31.898
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think beforehand, maybe even five years ago, we would have been talking about didn't models.
22:31.998 --> 22:37.739
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, dashboards within the platform, they parent optimizations, all these sort of things.
22:38.099 --> 22:43.700
[SPEAKER_02]: But it does feel like Google ads is at a juncture and where it's matured.
22:43.740 --> 22:44.180
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost
22:44.840 --> 23:02.133
[SPEAKER_02]: be common like maybe social in in some ways but even more so like offline media like when you're looking at like well you put money into this thing and and you know you see the tail starting to ring more online Google ads is is be common more like that now which is very interesting.
23:02.940 --> 23:03.460
[SPEAKER_01]: definitely.
23:03.480 --> 23:06.743
[SPEAKER_01]: Well look, Ger, thank you so much for explaining all of that to us.
23:06.783 --> 23:08.504
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been great picking your brains about it all.
23:08.924 --> 23:14.888
[SPEAKER_01]: This does make sure you stay tuned right to the end because you do not want to miss out on jazz inside the tips on Google Ads.
23:14.988 --> 23:17.130
[SPEAKER_01]: My suggestions for other ways we can help you.
23:19.217 --> 23:19.697
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, Jess.
23:19.798 --> 23:23.201
[SPEAKER_01]: So far, we've gone deep into picking your best Google Ads strategy.
23:23.621 --> 23:27.404
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you get to wear us with your insider knowledge about the whole of Google Ads.
23:27.484 --> 23:35.251
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, your answer can be about anything to do with Google Ads, which of course does include everything we've already been talking about.
23:35.331 --> 23:36.152
[SPEAKER_01]: Jess, are you ready?
23:36.592 --> 23:37.353
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I'm ready.
23:38.034 --> 23:39.935
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's start with Neuby Advice.
23:40.035 --> 23:46.101
[SPEAKER_01]: If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
23:46.946 --> 23:53.108
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, and it is definitely a repeat, but I think it is worth repeating is that Google adds is for people.
23:53.648 --> 23:58.750
[SPEAKER_02]: We are advertising the real people who need to buy real things for real reasons.
23:59.591 --> 24:04.632
[SPEAKER_02]: And oftentimes we can be way too caught up in data and not insight.
24:05.273 --> 24:07.754
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think insight is about understanding people.
24:08.434 --> 24:11.735
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's incredible resources within Google even the
24:14.696 --> 24:18.739
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a book from Steve and Stavowitz, and he's next Google engineer.
24:19.219 --> 24:24.984
[SPEAKER_02]: And he talks about Google's search data being the most important data set on the human psyche ever.
24:25.644 --> 24:34.591
[SPEAKER_02]: And oftentimes, we don't think of that as, you know, from a market here, perspective, we're too busy thinking about tactics, but it really does help you understand people.
24:35.151 --> 24:40.756
[SPEAKER_02]: So instead of looking at those keywords from it, I'm gonna bid on this, some that CBC is that,
24:44.198 --> 24:51.440
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is how someone searches for my products, and this is how I'm going to reach them, and this is how they need to be spoken to in order for me to do that.
24:52.461 --> 24:54.061
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're absolutely spot on there.
24:54.121 --> 24:54.421
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
24:54.761 --> 24:59.903
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing so what's your favorite way to improve performance.
25:00.572 --> 25:07.861
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, some of which is, is, is covered, uh, maybe, but I think constantly keeping your eye on the bigger picture.
25:07.881 --> 25:16.112
[SPEAKER_02]: So, not optimising towards channel-specific metrics, and ensuring that there is tangible growth, and whatever way,
25:16.592 --> 25:24.297
[SPEAKER_02]: tangible growth is agreed within your strategy, within the business that you're working in, whether that's again brand new customers, that could be customer lifetime value.
25:24.918 --> 25:43.351
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be reaching people, but they'll perform them, but understand that role that Google has to play and keep an eye on the bigger picture, which is overall e-cams sales, is sometimes a stronger way to optimize them being caught up within the platform and saying, John, I'm going to spend a little bit more on Monday morning's at this time, because it looks like
25:45.622 --> 25:50.203
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, if someone at least wants to learn more, is there a cheap or free resource you would recommend?
25:50.703 --> 25:53.004
[SPEAKER_02]: Google skills shop, I think, is fantastic.
25:53.164 --> 25:55.005
[SPEAKER_02]: In general, it's totally free.
25:55.585 --> 26:03.307
[SPEAKER_02]: I know in an area agency, we make sure everyone's up to data on all their Google certificates, because they are so important.
26:03.407 --> 26:12.870
[SPEAKER_02]: And even for someone that's working in the industry, like I'm over a decade now, working with Google ads, I still need to study a little bit every now and then, and because everything changes so often,
26:13.330 --> 26:25.380
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, even though you know, you said yourself like how much it's changed in 18 months, what it would look like again in 18 months and it's kind of it's almost cliche to say how quick digital market moves.
26:25.900 --> 26:34.968
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think Google ads out of all the digital channels and has really changed entirely over the last two years or so.
26:35.771 --> 26:36.071
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
26:36.492 --> 26:47.962
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost unrecognizable in terms of how you, the decisions you have to make, how you optimise it, how you make it deliver, while still looking 99% the same on the front end.
26:48.483 --> 26:49.123
[SPEAKER_02]: Agreed.
26:49.904 --> 26:50.385
[SPEAKER_02]: That is true.
26:50.445 --> 26:53.367
[SPEAKER_02]: It looks the exact same, but can be used in a totally different way.
26:54.028 --> 26:54.849
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, completely.
26:54.949 --> 26:55.249
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
26:55.329 --> 26:56.610
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, crystal ball time.
26:56.630 --> 26:59.953
[SPEAKER_01]: What's coming up in the next six to 12 months that we should be getting ready for?
27:00.053 --> 27:01.495
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell you, try and predict.
27:02.001 --> 27:08.906
[SPEAKER_02]: So obviously a very tough question, but AI is what's going for the platform in a big way.
27:09.406 --> 27:19.413
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the date day optimizations that we would have done when we were in platform has already changed totally, but that's only going to become further.
27:19.953 --> 27:23.176
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's going to push us into what we've already spoke about.
27:23.216 --> 27:24.057
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be creative.
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[SPEAKER_02]: The Google ads will be more about ensuring your reach and the right customers because you've got the right data.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You have the right creative, which has been forgotten about over the last few years.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that you're using AI to optimize in the correct way.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that has changed, totally, because it used to be so platformed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're going to come out of this peak season with case studies, Google Ads Case Studies really proving the case of those who embrace creative and data are going to be the ones who suddenly are performing so much further ahead of everybody else in the Google Ads space.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that next year's going to be kind of like the the up-skilling acid creation, data integration, crazy fast from kind of January to September, is my my prediction of what this piece is going to lead to.
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[SPEAKER_02]: in your dead right and I think what's funny is and it is anecdotal from working with with a lot of different brands is sometimes the bigger brands are actually harder to get the data correct because there's layers of compliance and the Google ads people don't always own the data internally within a brand and smaller brands have this amazing opportunity to be agile and to get in front of what is definitely don't be coming down the tracks in order to win here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, before we spend the next three hours talking about that, could you please let the audience know where they can find you and your business if they want to get in touch?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we're core optimization.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's core optimization across our social menus and my email is Jerra at core optimization.com and I'd be delighted to speak to anyone who wants to drop me a mail.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Lovely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And thanks so much for being on the podcast and talking about what I think many of finding is a difficult, big picture step change in Google ads.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully I'm sure we have made that a lot more straightforward for many of them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, Jeff, thanks so much for being here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That's the thanks on what's going on.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So if you haven't yet revisited your Google ads strategic activity, what you're doing, why you're doing it, who you're targeting, how you've got these integrations going on, what you're doing on the creative space, what your goals are, if you haven't done that,
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[SPEAKER_01]: then I would embark on it straight away because as we've been discussing, the platform has changed so much in the last two, three years.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't have those foundational things right, which starts with your decision-making, not with feeding data here there and everywhere, then you are not being at the results you should be guessing from your Google Ads spend.
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[SPEAKER_01]: now is the time to adapt.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now you can get the links to all those things we discussed, the transcript, important notes and more at keepoptimizing.com or use keepopt.com for such the number of this episode to go to the right page.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When you get there please add yourself to our email list so you don't miss out on all the other stuff we share to help you improve your business.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Keepoptimizing Podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you want to continue your Google Ads
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right now, then check out the first episode in this year's mini series, which is episode 319, where we're getting into all the key new stuff, which includes quite a lot of chatter about that net new customers' piece that you're mentioned, so you definitely need to go into that if the oil is prepped up at that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And you can find all our Google ads content either
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[SPEAKER_01]: Please do tell your fellow Marks about the show because I want to help us many of you as possible to improve performance of your e-commerce marketing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week and make sure listen to the next episode so we can help you to keep optimizing your marketing.
