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[SPEAKER_02]: Paven on overall consistent brand and differentiating yourself is really important because even when I talk with businesses that are find it hard to track stuff, you know, the ones that don't have a problem with that are the ones that have a good reputation already.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the CM goes with customers, you know, we all like short cuts, we're all right as a.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We don't want to think about things too much.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if you have a lot of choices, you know, the one that you recognize most is going to be the one that you go for.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the keep optimizing podcasts.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Do increase your traffic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Improve your conversion rates and grow your profits.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas the host of this e-commerce marketing focused podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar with our format, we release five episode mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic at a time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It could be channels like email or SEO or Facebook's or a big topic, like conversion rates, acquisition, retention or analytics.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones on Wednesdays, I get into a different expert to explore the latest advice on making it work for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then, after each five episodes, many series, we take a week off, giving you time to take action on what you've learned.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, for the first time since 2020, we are doing a series completely about improving your conversion rates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Not just AB's testing, we're looking at the whole range of things you can do to improve conversion rates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So in a eclectic mix of episodes is coming up for you, but all of them will help you improve your conversion rates and thus improve the performance of all of your marketing, which, I mean, who doesn't want that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: One thing that improves everything?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hell yeah, I'll take it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're kicking off with trust gaps.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We all know that the customer has to trust you to buy from you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We all know that the more the customer trusts you the faster they'll buy the more likely they are to buy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we improve that by removing the trust gaps from our customers' experience?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're talking about in this episode.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Lots on copywriting, understanding your customers better, social proof and a whole heap of other stuff you won't anticipate it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, do make sure you're some rights at the end of the episode because my guest is dropping some excellent book recommendations and other things in the inside of tips round.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with conversion rates expert Rebecca Boyle.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Rebecca is a brand strategist and fractional CMO at Lisa and Boyle.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Rebecca.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hi.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Maria.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Brown.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome to have you on the show.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How did you get into the world of conversion
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh well I did a degree many years ago in journalism and I was into that for a while and then I find copyrighting.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I can't even remember high.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I came across it but I did and I just thought it was so interesting because it combined a bit of creativity and journalism.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and it also brought in psychology as well.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I really loved any still love doing web copy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the things that I do most and enjoy doing and I just find it so interesting that a small twigs of language and high things look on a web site can really impact the actions people take.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is quite mad how you think copywriting.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're just writing some copy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, there's so many different skillsets and angles and specialisms that copywriters have on there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think people, you know, there's a difference between content rating and copywriting and copywriting is trying to get someone to take an action instead of just entertaining them or informing them, and it is all those psychological techniques that really you have to know about to add into your
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's get into that now with our topic that is trust gap.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, use just as a topic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a brilliant topic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do you define a trust gap?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so basically it's if a customer or a potential customer doesn't trust you enough to buy from you or take whatever action you want them to do.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's something there that's missing in what you're relaying to them and the message that they're getting there,
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[SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's our endless challenge within the e-commerce, but obviously there's an awful lot we can do with the actual copy we're putting in front of people to solve this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's loads of different things you can do, but it is so important, you know, especially in e-commerce when there's lots of products that are very similar, and you know, it's it's why they should buy from you instead of buying a very similar or the exact same product elsewhere.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, where do we worry about these trust gaps in our context?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really easy to think conversion rates check out Checkout Checkout, you know, right, bottom of the funnel staff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But from what you're saying, I'm guessing this could be at any point in the journey to purchase.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, everything pretty much, it's your higher common across generally as a brand.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it could be in social media, it could be any sort of market in channel, and it could be your home page and the whole web page to your website to your product pages and on for you to the bottom of the funnel stuff like the chat guide.
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[SPEAKER_02]: There's all things along that, that funnel that you can be doing to build that trust and making people want to purchase from you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously if you add all those things, you don't need to throw everything in, but if you add little things along the way, they're at all those different stages, then it can really help.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when we talk copy, are we purely talking text, text, text, or does this go into text on image and video scripts and that sort of thing as well?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's all of that as well and it can be stats, you know, so it could be how many,
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[SPEAKER_02]: people you've sold to or you know all that kind of thing it could be logos of previous clients you know and it can be a lot sort of thing as well as you said video and and graphics you know anything you know like that that can quickly show people especially on e-commerce sites things like graphics with maybe the guarantee or something.
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[SPEAKER_02]: or testimonials are very visual and help get across what you want to say because people on websites will skim read and so even just by the look of having the testimonial you know having that set up of the speech bubble or whatever people instantly know you know oh that's a test and moniana if you've got loads of those people don't need to necessarily read them but they can see that you've got them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So UGC is part of this, but it's not the be all-end all of this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think quite often we think trust and we think I will slap some UGC on it and we're done, but it's not quite that simple as it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, that definitely helps because people, most people, I think it's like 80% or something like it reviews first.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And especially products, you know, that they will look at those first and see what other people say because coming from someone else, it's more trustworthy than coming from you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you say, I'm a brilliant person, you know, people think, well, you know, I don't know.
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[SPEAKER_02]: By that, I'll take that with a pinch of salt.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But if someone else says that about you, you know, obviously it's more like me to be believed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what for you is the biggest area to tackle if you want to improve the trust gap on your website and improve those conversion rates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's the biggest copywriting hack I suppose to push?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's just awfully downgrade.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She shouldn't you ban the word hack, Chloe.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's the biggest lever we can pull to improve our conversion rates here?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, a lot of my work is around Brandon and Jen also, like all the big companies, you know Coca-Cola, various and all those ones, they have a brand personality and that goes a long way in being able to charge premium prices and being able to people to just buy from them without thinking too much about it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So having an overall consistent brand,
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[SPEAKER_02]: and differentiate in yourself is really important because even when I talk with businesses that are fine, that hard to track stuff, you know, the ones that don't have a problem with that, or the ones that have a good reputation already.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So the same goes with customers, you know, we all like shortcuts, we're all right as a, we don't want to think about things too much.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if you have a lot of choices, you know, the one that you recognize most is going to be the
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[SPEAKER_02]: So having, you know, being different and having that personality and having something different doesn't have to be extraordinary.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what makes you unique doesn't have to be amazin.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It could simply be that you offer the best customer service or you offer something on top of, you know, your product or an additional service.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It could be a very small thing, but it could make all the difference and it could set your part.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have the, the first challenges I identify what that is, but the second challenge is weaving it in throughout the whole journey, which I think is where, you know, if you're found or is your differentiator, you know, Bob says Bob says Bob says all the time can get quite repetitive and dull.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you, you know, if you've got a lot of skews, how do you make this interesting at every level of the journey?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_02]: what ideas have like a framework so it's about 10 points of high-of-the-company spakes so it's like little checklists but if you're writing your copy you can go through and say okay have we said it this way maybe have we put some humor in it have we done this that and the other and so if you have like a framework like that it can be consistent so that anybody within the organization whether
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[SPEAKER_02]: anyone can speak in the same voice.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's about adding that personality and those things that are unique about what you're saying into all the different coffee.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So anytime you write anything at all, even if it's an email, look at it and say, is this the way we would say it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Or is this just another boring email that no one's really going to, you know, curb it?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Is it like every other email?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fascinated by the idea of this 10-point checklist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, you know, you mentioned that level of humour is a good thing to include there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What are the sorts of things could it be?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Could it be we met them?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's always by the founder.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's always exact correct proper English or.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it could be that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're a formal, you know, say like universities and stuff they would have quite formal language and so it could be making sure the different grammar like you're always using Oxford grammars and all that's here that that are very traditional.
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[SPEAKER_02]: maybe you want to be more conversational, more led back, you know, that type of brand, and so you want to make sure that you're maybe using slang or clocalisms or things like that within your writing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're maybe, you know, one of the things on the list is sometimes
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, is this the way you would say it to a friend if you're sitting at a bar or something with them or a cafe with them?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Is that how you would explain this to, you know, this product to them?
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[SPEAKER_02]: If it's not, you know, maybe you need to rethink that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So with things like that, and it can't be in the finder's voice, that that can have problems because of the finder lives or, you know, whatever, and sometimes you don't always want it in the finder's voice.
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[SPEAKER_02]: For example, my brand,
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[SPEAKER_02]: professional me is quite different from me is just general a bit more polite a bit more you know I don't do certain things it won't swear and my copy or anything make that were as I would normal life you know I wouldn't bother me but I wouldn't in a professional setting and so with you obviously want to get that bounce between the finders actual voice and what's good brand and as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Got you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And would that go?
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[SPEAKER_01]: The checklist goes nitty-gritty as for example.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Here at my business, we always write e-commerce with a small e-in a big sea and no dash.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It is nitty-gritty, obviously not 10 points that are all how to spell a word, but would that be the sort of thing you'd include?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It wouldn't be in the tone of voice guide, so the tone of voice guide is trying to keep it as can say it's possible, so Tam would be the maximum number of points I would have for that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: In the style guide, would it be that kind of information like what kind of language you use if you're in different locations, so if you're parent companies in Spain, but even UK, you know, officer or whatever, it's about what words you would use in UK, but maybe not in Europe, so it's different things like that and grammar and
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[SPEAKER_02]: the table, the more G's you do, if you would choose those, you know, so it's all those different things on, yeah, the nitty-gritty offer.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Go to style and tone-of-voice, consider them separately, but bring them together.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, possible, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: To create this kind of style, differentiation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, anything else on how we differentiate to make sure people go ahead and buy us, not someone else.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, there's lots of problems, I see when I say to people, what's curious, pay what's the unique thing about you and people would say things like over-family business or where the only ones in the UK or something like that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And those things, anything that can be copied like that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: isn't a unique selling point.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's something that can't be copied.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you may be the only family business to do a certain, you know, product or have a certain business, but that's only for an eye.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Someone else could come along and then your ESP has gone.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You can still be the leader in that market, but it won't be a USP.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So basically anything that can be copied is not a USP.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You want something that's unique to you, that someone will not get anywhere else.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it could simply be, for example, my business is still on with me and me as the person.
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[SPEAKER_02]: you know, vibe and with me and and like in me as a person and have not personalized approach so people don't like me they're not going to like my business you know so it could be that you know and as long as you have thick skin that's fine which I do so that's why the people don't like me that you don't have to work with me but you know it needs to be something that's unique to your business
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[SPEAKER_01]: do you find that because I certainly have found this over time is it's a lot easier to put a USP on a service based business than it is a product based business.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it can certainly be easier.
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[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of service businesses are about the people and things with the NF that make it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: A product based, especially if it's maybe more affordable products, you know, that the can be got lots of different places, then yes, it certainly is more, it can be more difficult to find a what it is, but it could simply be the use of humor.
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[SPEAKER_02]: in your, you know, your copy that you're a bit tongue-in-cheek with things, and, you know, like, if you know of any of Virgin's ads, they're a bit cheeky, and they're a bit, you know, or when these over in America, you know, they're a bit, you know, on social media, they make fun of themselves, and other people, and even their customers and things.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it could be something very slight, even like that type of personality in your copy that could make you different.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's more about, I guess, it's more about differentiation than getting completely hung up on trying to find the perfect USP.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, pretty much, because and as I said, people think the USP has to be something extraordinary.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have to be.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It can be a very small thing, but it's just something that you're business does differently.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Nice, and are there any other, and obviously the differentiation is going to be a really big part of improving the results, but any other key elements that are worth bringing in to the mix as we're reviewing our copy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's the proof gap, which I often say is a problem in in coffee.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, if you've got testimonials or guarantees or something, there's usually a problem with being vague.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So for testimonials that could be, this was a really great product.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I love this, you know, and that's it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, well, that's not really helpful to anybody to be honest.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so, and, and although sometimes there's nothing you can do about that, but you can sometimes guide people like, I would give for service businesses.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's easier to do this, but it would be, you know, a template off high-eye healthy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: What the result was, you know, what problem you were having, how we dealt with that and what the result was.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you can get them to break a dime and be more specific.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and so you can possibly do that if you're asking for a written reviews for e-commerce sites too, you know, ask them could they, you know, say what problem they had, how it helped them, you know, what they liked about it and be a bit more specific about it so that people can really get an understanding of
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[SPEAKER_02]: what's good about the product and why they should buy it, and that's specific, if I can even say, is also a problem with things like guarantee, so money back guarantee or something, you know that's okay, but you know how many people have maybe of the older fact, money back guarantee, you know, a lot of people have maybe used that you're like, okay, well, maybe, you know, this product doesn't great, and
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[SPEAKER_02]: and that guarantee really doesn't mean very much, so it's about being a specific as possible and if you have anything like that, you know, looking at it and saying, okay, how can I make this even more specific?
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[SPEAKER_02]: How can I really hone in on this and make it, you know, that people really believe what I'm saying here and are confident in buying it because they do think the guarantees worthwhile or the testimonials are helpful.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just about being with those things that are making trust factors that are building that up being a specific as possible.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it is, I mean, tell me if this is way off base, but with the guarantee, I would assume that's having a really obvious link in the footer that goes to a page that explains the detail of the guarantee.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is what the guarantee really is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is how you claim it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is how we process it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just to create that, you know, it is, but all money back guarantee and then the customer can go and actually find out the nitty gritty of it should they want to.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly and you should have a link that details that because a lot of people that that will be okay And if you have a nice little visual, it's quick Discum and say and you're like, okay, well, if they have that it must be, you know, okay Because they don't want to be given their money back to everybody so it must be you know There's some sort of truth in that, but yeah, you definitely should have more details elsewhere And it doesn't have to be on that page, you know, as long as you
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[SPEAKER_02]: it tell and maybe somewhere else to go and you don't have to put absolutely everything on the one page.
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[SPEAKER_01]: excellent.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then anything else, I think a relevancy was one of the things you were talking to me about earlier.
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we, how do we be more relevant?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so a lot of products they can give, you know, the technical specifications, you know, what's this measurement or those there, some whatever, and some don't do that and come across a lot of descriptions that don't really do that either.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So you do want to get those basics right first and the technical details.
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[SPEAKER_02]: but sometimes depend on the product, those are quite good because it shows you know what you're talking about and you're like, well, this person must know about this and because they're given this level of detail.
20:05.995 --> 20:14.042
[SPEAKER_02]: So that depends on what you're sailing, but the relevancy gap is also about what connects them to your product.
20:14.062 --> 20:16.465
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you bring some sort of emotion into it,
20:16.865 --> 20:38.213
[SPEAKER_02]: you know about the benefit or the transformation that that product will bring or what problem and that is so often for them you know a lot of the time we buy things especially now when you know the economy is not great people are watching what they're they're spending a bit more you know if someone has a problem and if it's something they really want dealt with no
20:39.153 --> 21:00.198
[SPEAKER_02]: if you really hone in on that and talk about that and the coffee and about high-dest product helps, then you know you've done a lot of the work there and simply by you know stating what it does maybe we can get that across and sometimes we because it's our products and maybe we know them really well we don't always realize that it's not maybe obvious to other people.
21:00.758 --> 21:08.766
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose it's like selling a fitted bed sheet and you give the dimensions in millimetres, but you don't say double.
21:10.830 --> 21:20.414
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, all the things that I'm talking size or whatever it might be, it's that that actually thinking it through thinking through the details from the eyes of the customer rather than yourself.
21:21.114 --> 21:23.615
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, and that's why it's really good.
21:23.735 --> 21:31.879
[SPEAKER_02]: I always go on about, you know, understand your customer engine so much research on your customer, but before you do anything, you know, right any copy.
21:32.319 --> 21:39.062
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the more you know that person and even their hobbies and stuff, you can bring that in, you know, and put that in the copy, you know,
21:39.482 --> 21:55.763
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe you could say when you're sitting there watching Desperate High Swipes, you can be using this product or you know you can add little things like that in the tools, the person that oh you you get them and you know that they'll be using this when they're sitting watching that program or something you know so it's it's little things like that.
21:56.465 --> 21:59.968
[SPEAKER_01]: any favourite ways of researching the customer.
22:00.109 --> 22:06.635
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose everyone, the reason I ask is because everyone who does job similar to yours has a favourite way of finding out the voice of the customer.
22:06.895 --> 22:09.438
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your preferred way to find that data?
22:09.978 --> 22:12.240
[SPEAKER_02]: To be honest, I don't often have a preferred way.
22:12.841 --> 22:18.026
[SPEAKER_02]: I like using multiple ways because you want this much information as possible.
22:18.606 --> 22:24.349
[SPEAKER_02]: So, when I'm like in a customer's, I will look at previous customers and it has to be an ID.
22:24.409 --> 22:28.411
[SPEAKER_02]: Customers, if you don't want that type of customer anymore, then you don't want to use them.
22:28.872 --> 22:36.195
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's people that have been past customers and you want to maybe do interviews with them, get as much information about them as possible.
22:36.876 --> 22:40.838
[SPEAKER_02]: I use forums like reddit and things or specialist ones.
22:41.158 --> 22:45.879
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, if I'm doing logistics companies, it'll be maybe supply chain forums and things.
22:46.479 --> 22:53.721
[SPEAKER_02]: They're quite good because they're people asking questions and have a normal conversation as well about the different problems and stuff they're having.
22:54.301 --> 22:56.241
[SPEAKER_02]: So forums are really good.
22:56.621 --> 22:57.961
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also social media.
22:58.482 --> 23:04.983
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's also like, there'll be academic research or business research, you know, if there's maybe
23:05.403 --> 23:11.344
[SPEAKER_02]: research on SMEs, no small-to-medium size enterprises within Northern Ireland or the UK.
23:11.825 --> 23:22.387
[SPEAKER_02]: It might give you, say, the top problems, their fearson at the minute with the stats and percentages on them, and things like that, you know, because that's evidence-based obviously, so that can be really helpful as well.
23:22.947 --> 23:31.269
[SPEAKER_02]: So I really like having a mix of all those different things to really back up what you're saying, and obviously getting a third-in-speak
23:33.850 --> 23:36.753
[SPEAKER_01]: love that real, real depth in that answer.
23:36.813 --> 23:37.894
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much Rebecca.
23:37.974 --> 23:47.342
[SPEAKER_01]: One last question on this for you before we head towards the inside of tips, which is we have a lot of copying in all it shapes and forms and our business is.
23:48.923 --> 23:56.392
[SPEAKER_01]: If we're going to start on this journey to gree do all the copy overnight is unachievable, where do we start?
23:56.412 --> 24:06.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Do we start with product descriptions and the product landing pages and then work our way back out through the customer journey or do we start top of funnel and then race the customer to the checkout?
24:07.320 --> 24:12.364
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would say, do your research first, get to know your customers when you've got all that done.
24:12.805 --> 24:24.234
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say start from the homepage and work the way because your homepage is the the me and thing that people are going to say, you know, usually, and I can't be other pages of bite page and pages and things.
24:24.274 --> 24:26.336
[SPEAKER_02]: So you obviously want to check your stats on that.
24:26.877 --> 24:32.446
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I would say once you get clear on that main section of, you know, what makes us different?
24:32.466 --> 24:40.799
[SPEAKER_02]: My people should buy from us, then it'll make everything else a lot easier because you can just carry that on and through your copy them.
24:41.338 --> 24:46.782
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's a lot like go to the stats, go to the stats, start on the big pages and then make the impact.
24:46.802 --> 24:50.325
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so yes, I don't know why, but then I'll just ask you a question.
24:50.345 --> 24:53.268
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but it's so small things and I see it so much.
24:53.288 --> 25:05.438
[SPEAKER_02]: I even am bigger, you know, companies where the basics aren't done or you forget about them or maybe they're not updated and things and it is just because sometimes I feel bad to tell them, you know, have you looked at the stats and things like that?
25:05.458 --> 25:05.558
[SPEAKER_02]: But
25:05.878 --> 25:11.847
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the time they haven't, and I mean, I've done it myself for real and we're upset where, you know, when you think, oh, I didn't check that.
25:11.887 --> 25:17.176
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's those basic things that once they're in place, the foundations are there.
25:17.356 --> 25:21.082
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll make everything a lot easier, and it is just sometimes remembered to do that.
25:21.449 --> 25:22.030
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so true.
25:22.130 --> 25:26.995
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a shiver going on my spine of the state of our home pages, but we're going to ignore that for now.
25:27.655 --> 25:31.379
[SPEAKER_01]: Rebecca, it's been brilliant picking your brains about truss gaps and conversion rates.
25:31.800 --> 25:36.584
[SPEAKER_01]: Listers, remember to stay tuned right to the end so you don't miss out on Rebecca's insider tips on all of this.
25:37.005 --> 25:39.207
[SPEAKER_02]: And my suggestions for other ways we can help you.
25:41.088 --> 25:44.450
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, Rebecca, so far we've gone deep into trust gaps.
25:44.650 --> 25:48.692
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you get to where I was with your insider knowledge about the whole of conversion rates.
25:49.172 --> 25:56.016
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, your answer can be anything to do with conversion rates, but your course includes everything we've already been talking about.
25:56.476 --> 25:58.317
[SPEAKER_01]: Rebecca, are you ready for the insider tips?
25:58.897 --> 25:59.777
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's that, thanks so.
26:00.138 --> 26:00.778
[SPEAKER_02]: Marvelous.
26:00.818 --> 26:02.619
[SPEAKER_01]: Then let's start with newbie advice.
26:02.959 --> 26:08.522
[SPEAKER_01]: If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
26:09.807 --> 26:33.767
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think what we talked about earlier is how you're different and make it a specific as possible because once you get that right, you know, other things will be easier and you don't have to do everything at once, you know, like you said, you know, you've whole website, maybe you've loads of products and, you know, it's like, oh, where did I start and you've maybe social media and lots of different things that you're having to juggle as well.
26:34.467 --> 26:41.191
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's about starting small and once you get that basic done off, I'm different, that'll inform everything else.
26:41.852 --> 26:42.172
[SPEAKER_01]: Nice.
26:42.272 --> 26:47.415
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing, so watch your favourite way to improve performance.
26:48.228 --> 26:51.611
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I say to everyone do little and often.
26:52.071 --> 26:58.877
[SPEAKER_02]: So, again, marketing can be very overwhelming and copy, you know, writing copy and everything ticks a lot of time.
26:59.317 --> 27:12.688
[SPEAKER_02]: So, do small things, you know, even if it's one thing a day, you know, even if it's half a page a day, you know, as long as you get one small thing done and consistently do that, then you will get the results eventually.
27:13.199 --> 27:13.520
[SPEAKER_01]: nice.
27:14.022 --> 27:18.277
[SPEAKER_01]: And if someone listing wants to learn more, is there one cheap or free resource you would recommend?
27:18.873 --> 27:28.759
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a couple of breaks, obviously, as a writer, books are my favorite podcasts and everything are great, but there's books on my bookshelf that I would recommend to anybody.
27:29.279 --> 27:41.006
[SPEAKER_02]: And that is influenced by Robert B. Caldini, thank you to the second image, and it's based on research, and it gives practical tips on why people buy and how you can incorporate that.
27:41.447 --> 27:46.670
[SPEAKER_02]: And those kinds of psychological tips we're talking about into your copy and your marketing.
27:47.733 --> 27:48.734
[SPEAKER_01]: mind-blowing book.
27:49.614 --> 27:52.656
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't not sure you can call yourself a market if you haven't read that book.
27:52.836 --> 27:53.776
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
27:54.637 --> 28:01.960
[SPEAKER_02]: And a second one also because of two absolute favorites that I recommend to anybody is that we copy right in hand, book by Joseph Sugarman.
28:02.380 --> 28:03.981
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, another staple.
28:04.201 --> 28:10.004
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very practical advice again and it's about how to write copy and especially for e-commerce.
28:10.064 --> 28:15.207
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about how to keep what you're saying, but concise, you know, without losing any of that.
28:15.727 --> 28:17.790
[SPEAKER_02]: what you want to say, so it's really good.
28:18.170 --> 28:20.633
[SPEAKER_02]: And I like both of those books because they're both very practical.
28:21.073 --> 28:22.275
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love a practical book.
28:23.536 --> 28:25.118
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, it's crystal ball time.
28:25.238 --> 28:28.322
[SPEAKER_01]: What's coming up in the next six to 12 months that we should be getting ready for?
28:29.062 --> 28:49.907
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so I've been sent people for a while now that with AI and everything, it's been more human, you know, because we were so used with everything being digital, and I haven't so many different social media channels and everything, but it's about being human and I because people are cynical and it's going back to us.
28:49.927 --> 28:54.308
[SPEAKER_02]: Trust factors again, people aren't really believe in who you are and, you know, there's a lot more.
28:54.308 --> 28:55.609
[SPEAKER_02]: more scams and things now.
28:56.010 --> 29:16.232
[SPEAKER_02]: So it really is about being a human speaking to people like their another human being, not just you know a faceless person that's buying your product, even if you imagine speaking to a particular person that can really help and it's just being more personal and being different, you're not just a company, you know, you're your human being.
29:16.923 --> 29:18.384
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's so spot on.
29:18.604 --> 29:22.207
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've already seen it coming through with the SEO side of things.
29:22.227 --> 29:26.910
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's clearly, that's clearly power and being a human still.
29:27.330 --> 29:29.932
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we get on that rabbit hole, Rebecca.
29:30.492 --> 29:35.396
[SPEAKER_01]: Could you please let listeners know where they can find out more about you in your business and get in touch?
29:36.176 --> 29:53.791
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so you can find me on LinkedIn, it's my Mian Social Media Channel, and it's Rebecca Boyle, and our website, so it's www.lesser, which is L-I-S-S-A-H. L-S-A-N-Boyle.co.uk.
29:54.431 --> 29:55.352
[SPEAKER_01]: There we go, everybody.
29:55.432 --> 29:57.914
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Rebecca, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
29:57.934 --> 30:01.357
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been an awesome way to kick off our discussions about conversion rates.
30:01.397 --> 30:02.558
[SPEAKER_01]: I thank you so much for being here.
30:03.159 --> 30:04.440
[SPEAKER_02]: No problem, thank you for having me.
30:06.573 --> 30:11.436
[SPEAKER_01]: What a brilliant start to our series of episodes on conversion rate optimization.
30:11.636 --> 30:17.399
[SPEAKER_01]: Really getting to the heart of how you differentiate to make sure that customer remembers you and comes back and buys from you.
30:18.079 --> 30:22.422
[SPEAKER_01]: Loads of cool bits and pieces there from Rebecca.
30:23.022 --> 30:25.863
[SPEAKER_01]: Great advice on how to research and understand your customers.
30:25.883 --> 30:27.204
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can create the content better.
30:27.224 --> 30:37.288
[SPEAKER_01]: We talked a lot about differentiation about those checklists for tone of voice and for style treat the most two separate things and of course UGC and some great book recommendations too.
30:37.708 --> 30:41.190
[SPEAKER_01]: You can get the links to all those things we discussed, the full transcript.
30:41.490 --> 30:43.952
[SPEAKER_01]: are notes and more at KeepOptomising.com.
30:44.352 --> 30:57.642
[SPEAKER_01]: You can also use our special direct episode short links just put KeepOpt.com forward slash the number of the episode into the URL bar and you'll go straight to the correct page of the website which now we're on over 300 episodes.
30:57.722 --> 30:59.644
[SPEAKER_01]: There's quite a lot there to find your way through.
31:00.084 --> 31:07.830
[SPEAKER_01]: When you get to the website please also add yourself to the Chloe Thomas newsletter so you don't miss out on any of the stuff we share by email either.
31:08.230 --> 31:12.393
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Optimizing podcast.
31:12.714 --> 31:22.021
[SPEAKER_01]: You've enjoyed this episode and want to continue learning about conversion rates right now, then pick up our thread by scrolling up your feed to episodes wait for it.
31:22.041 --> 31:32.390
[SPEAKER_01]: 10 to 13, yes, number 10, number 11, number 12, number 13, because that was the last time we dedicated a whole series to conversion rates.
31:33.130 --> 31:35.472
[SPEAKER_01]: way back at the very beginning of this show in 2020.
31:35.672 --> 31:42.459
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, we've covered lots of different aspects of it over time since then here and there in other master classes.
31:42.479 --> 31:49.185
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can find a full thread of all of that in the short link, keep opt.com forward slash CRO.
31:49.965 --> 31:54.149
[SPEAKER_01]: And please do tell you a follow-in marks about the show because I want this to help them as well as to help you.
31:55.490 --> 31:58.832
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I've got an individual episode recommendation for you.
31:59.192 --> 32:09.556
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had a great episode not very long ago about trust building conversions and experts and how you can use experts to help build all of that too.
32:09.616 --> 32:12.577
[SPEAKER_01]: It's episode 253 with Eric Sheencop.
32:13.157 --> 32:18.940
[SPEAKER_01]: Fascinating guy really cool example of how you can improve conversion rates with all this good stuff.
32:19.520 --> 32:20.080
[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week.
32:20.540 --> 32:23.321
[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure you listen to the next episode so we can help you to keep
32:27.546 --> 32:29.549
[SPEAKER_00]: Access everything, keep optimizing.
32:30.230 --> 32:33.775
[SPEAKER_00]: At keepoptimizing.com, that's within us, not as in.
00:00.511 --> 00:17.024
[SPEAKER_02]: Paven on overall consistent brand and differentiating yourself is really important because even when I talk with businesses that are find it hard to track stuff, you know, the ones that don't have a problem with that are the ones that have a good reputation already.
00:17.704 --> 00:22.368
[SPEAKER_02]: So the CM goes with customers, you know, we all like short cuts, we're all right as a.
00:22.388 --> 00:24.030
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't want to think about things too much.
00:24.470 --> 00:30.916
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you have a lot of choices, you know, the one that you recognize most is going to be the one that you go for.
00:33.178 --> 00:35.821
[SPEAKER_00]: You're listening to the keep optimizing podcasts.
00:36.081 --> 00:37.242
[SPEAKER_00]: Do increase your traffic.
00:37.422 --> 00:40.145
[SPEAKER_00]: Improve your conversion rates and grow your profits.
00:43.072 --> 00:44.494
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome.
00:44.594 --> 00:48.498
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Chloe Thomas the host of this e-commerce marketing focused podcast.
00:48.898 --> 00:55.825
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're not familiar with our format, we release five episode mini series that dive deep into one e-commerce marketing topic at a time.
00:56.245 --> 01:03.173
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be channels like email or SEO or Facebook's or a big topic, like conversion rates, acquisition, retention or analytics.
01:03.773 --> 01:10.575
[SPEAKER_01]: In each episode, new ones on Wednesdays, I get into a different expert to explore the latest advice on making it work for you.
01:10.675 --> 01:16.977
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, after each five episodes, many series, we take a week off, giving you time to take action on what you've learned.
01:17.557 --> 01:24.760
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, for the first time since 2020, we are doing a series completely about improving your conversion rates.
01:25.460 --> 01:30.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Not just AB's testing, we're looking at the whole range of things you can do to improve conversion rates.
01:30.725 --> 01:41.975
[SPEAKER_01]: So in a eclectic mix of episodes is coming up for you, but all of them will help you improve your conversion rates and thus improve the performance of all of your marketing, which, I mean, who doesn't want that?
01:42.135 --> 01:43.496
[SPEAKER_01]: One thing that improves everything?
01:43.877 --> 01:44.877
[SPEAKER_01]: Hell yeah, I'll take it.
01:45.538 --> 01:48.441
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, we're kicking off with trust gaps.
01:48.961 --> 01:52.003
[SPEAKER_01]: We all know that the customer has to trust you to buy from you.
01:52.383 --> 01:57.207
[SPEAKER_01]: We all know that the more the customer trusts you the faster they'll buy the more likely they are to buy.
01:57.247 --> 02:04.272
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we improve that by removing the trust gaps from our customers' experience?
02:04.892 --> 02:06.393
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're talking about in this episode.
02:06.853 --> 02:13.398
[SPEAKER_01]: Lots on copywriting, understanding your customers better, social proof and a whole heap of other stuff you won't anticipate it.
02:13.918 --> 02:22.283
[SPEAKER_01]: So, do make sure you're some rights at the end of the episode because my guest is dropping some excellent book recommendations and other things in the inside of tips round.
02:24.444 --> 02:28.487
[SPEAKER_01]: In this episode, I'm chatting with conversion rates expert Rebecca Boyle.
02:28.847 --> 02:33.129
[SPEAKER_01]: Rebecca is a brand strategist and fractional CMO at Lisa and Boyle.
02:33.189 --> 02:34.050
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Rebecca.
02:34.430 --> 02:34.830
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi.
02:35.030 --> 02:35.511
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Maria.
02:35.531 --> 02:36.131
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Brown.
02:36.391 --> 02:36.871
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm good.
02:37.091 --> 02:38.772
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome to have you on the show.
02:38.973 --> 02:41.294
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you get into the world of conversion
02:43.679 --> 02:53.604
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh well I did a degree many years ago in journalism and I was into that for a while and then I find copyrighting.
02:53.724 --> 02:55.245
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't even remember high.
02:55.265 --> 03:04.150
[SPEAKER_02]: I came across it but I did and I just thought it was so interesting because it combined a bit of creativity and journalism.
03:05.090 --> 03:08.113
[SPEAKER_02]: and it also brought in psychology as well.
03:08.313 --> 03:11.115
[SPEAKER_02]: I really loved any still love doing web copy.
03:11.135 --> 03:25.287
[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the things that I do most and enjoy doing and I just find it so interesting that a small twigs of language and high things look on a web site can really impact the actions people take.
03:25.908 --> 03:27.968
[SPEAKER_01]: It is quite mad how you think copywriting.
03:28.068 --> 03:29.149
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're just writing some copy.
03:29.809 --> 03:36.250
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, there's so many different skillsets and angles and specialisms that copywriters have on there.
03:36.530 --> 03:54.754
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think people, you know, there's a difference between content rating and copywriting and copywriting is trying to get someone to take an action instead of just entertaining them or informing them, and it is all those psychological techniques that really you have to know about to add into your
03:55.815 --> 04:01.105
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's get into that now with our topic that is trust gap.
04:01.165 --> 04:03.811
[SPEAKER_01]: So, use just as a topic.
04:03.871 --> 04:04.853
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a brilliant topic.
04:05.594 --> 04:07.398
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you define a trust gap?
04:08.112 --> 04:18.254
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so basically it's if a customer or a potential customer doesn't trust you enough to buy from you or take whatever action you want them to do.
04:18.614 --> 04:24.516
[SPEAKER_02]: There's something there that's missing in what you're relaying to them and the message that they're getting there,
04:34.391 --> 04:41.297
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess that's our endless challenge within the e-commerce, but obviously there's an awful lot we can do with the actual copy we're putting in front of people to solve this.
04:41.737 --> 04:42.958
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.
04:43.058 --> 04:59.111
[SPEAKER_02]: There's loads of different things you can do, but it is so important, you know, especially in e-commerce when there's lots of products that are very similar, and you know, it's it's why they should buy from you instead of buying a very similar or the exact same product elsewhere.
04:59.992 --> 05:05.617
[SPEAKER_01]: So, where do we worry about these trust gaps in our context?
05:05.657 --> 05:10.702
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really easy to think conversion rates check out Checkout Checkout, you know, right, bottom of the funnel staff.
05:11.202 --> 05:15.987
[SPEAKER_01]: But from what you're saying, I'm guessing this could be at any point in the journey to purchase.
05:16.352 --> 05:21.996
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, everything pretty much, it's your higher common across generally as a brand.
05:22.076 --> 05:39.350
[SPEAKER_02]: So it could be in social media, it could be any sort of market in channel, and it could be your home page and the whole web page to your website to your product pages and on for you to the bottom of the funnel stuff like the chat guide.
05:39.870 --> 05:48.154
[SPEAKER_02]: There's all things along that, that funnel that you can be doing to build that trust and making people want to purchase from you.
05:48.654 --> 05:57.878
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously if you add all those things, you don't need to throw everything in, but if you add little things along the way, they're at all those different stages, then it can really help.
05:58.583 --> 06:08.712
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we talk copy, are we purely talking text, text, text, or does this go into text on image and video scripts and that sort of thing as well?
06:09.032 --> 06:14.497
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's all of that as well and it can be stats, you know, so it could be how many,
06:14.877 --> 06:35.098
[SPEAKER_02]: people you've sold to or you know all that kind of thing it could be logos of previous clients you know and it can be a lot sort of thing as well as you said video and and graphics you know anything you know like that that can quickly show people especially on e-commerce sites things like graphics with maybe the guarantee or something.
06:35.458 --> 06:58.079
[SPEAKER_02]: or testimonials are very visual and help get across what you want to say because people on websites will skim read and so even just by the look of having the testimonial you know having that set up of the speech bubble or whatever people instantly know you know oh that's a test and moniana if you've got loads of those people don't need to necessarily read them but they can see that you've got them.
06:58.793 --> 07:02.697
[SPEAKER_01]: So UGC is part of this, but it's not the be all-end all of this.
07:02.737 --> 07:08.122
[SPEAKER_01]: I think quite often we think trust and we think I will slap some UGC on it and we're done, but it's not quite that simple as it.
07:08.673 --> 07:16.015
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, that definitely helps because people, most people, I think it's like 80% or something like it reviews first.
07:16.635 --> 07:25.357
[SPEAKER_02]: And especially products, you know, that they will look at those first and see what other people say because coming from someone else, it's more trustworthy than coming from you.
07:25.737 --> 07:29.438
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you say, I'm a brilliant person, you know, people think, well, you know, I don't know.
07:29.518 --> 07:31.519
[SPEAKER_02]: By that, I'll take that with a pinch of salt.
07:31.879 --> 07:36.120
[SPEAKER_02]: But if someone else says that about you, you know, obviously it's more like me to be believed.
07:37.040 --> 07:45.425
[SPEAKER_01]: So what for you is the biggest area to tackle if you want to improve the trust gap on your website and improve those conversion rates.
07:45.466 --> 07:49.348
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the biggest copywriting hack I suppose to push?
07:49.688 --> 07:51.009
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just awfully downgrade.
07:51.089 --> 07:55.332
[SPEAKER_01]: She shouldn't you ban the word hack, Chloe.
07:55.552 --> 07:59.995
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the biggest lever we can pull to improve our conversion rates here?
08:00.555 --> 08:21.276
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, a lot of my work is around Brandon and Jen also, like all the big companies, you know Coca-Cola, various and all those ones, they have a brand personality and that goes a long way in being able to charge premium prices and being able to people to just buy from them without thinking too much about it.
08:21.716 --> 08:24.559
[SPEAKER_02]: So having an overall consistent brand,
08:24.979 --> 08:38.904
[SPEAKER_02]: and differentiate in yourself is really important because even when I talk with businesses that are fine, that hard to track stuff, you know, the ones that don't have a problem with that, or the ones that have a good reputation already.
08:39.565 --> 08:46.127
[SPEAKER_02]: So the same goes with customers, you know, we all like shortcuts, we're all right as a, we don't want to think about things too much.
08:46.587 --> 08:51.950
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you have a lot of choices, you know, the one that you recognize most is going to be the
08:53.410 --> 09:01.312
[SPEAKER_02]: So having, you know, being different and having that personality and having something different doesn't have to be extraordinary.
09:01.432 --> 09:04.492
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what makes you unique doesn't have to be amazin.
09:04.872 --> 09:13.634
[SPEAKER_02]: It could simply be that you offer the best customer service or you offer something on top of, you know, your product or an additional service.
09:14.054 --> 09:18.875
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be a very small thing, but it could make all the difference and it could set your part.
09:19.652 --> 09:36.137
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you have the, the first challenges I identify what that is, but the second challenge is weaving it in throughout the whole journey, which I think is where, you know, if you're found or is your differentiator, you know, Bob says Bob says Bob says all the time can get quite repetitive and dull.
09:36.178 --> 09:42.119
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you, you know, if you've got a lot of skews, how do you make this interesting at every level of the journey?
09:42.880 --> 09:43.280
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
09:43.920 --> 10:08.073
[SPEAKER_02]: what ideas have like a framework so it's about 10 points of high-of-the-company spakes so it's like little checklists but if you're writing your copy you can go through and say okay have we said it this way maybe have we put some humor in it have we done this that and the other and so if you have like a framework like that it can be consistent so that anybody within the organization whether
10:11.695 --> 10:13.756
[SPEAKER_02]: anyone can speak in the same voice.
10:14.216 --> 10:21.260
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's about adding that personality and those things that are unique about what you're saying into all the different coffee.
10:21.320 --> 10:28.424
[SPEAKER_02]: So anytime you write anything at all, even if it's an email, look at it and say, is this the way we would say it?
10:28.884 --> 10:33.446
[SPEAKER_02]: Or is this just another boring email that no one's really going to, you know, curb it?
10:33.486 --> 10:34.727
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it like every other email?
10:35.257 --> 10:37.659
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fascinated by the idea of this 10-point checklist.
10:37.699 --> 10:42.443
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, you know, you mentioned that level of humour is a good thing to include there.
10:43.003 --> 10:44.484
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the sorts of things could it be?
10:44.544 --> 10:46.246
[SPEAKER_01]: Could it be we met them?
10:46.506 --> 10:48.107
[SPEAKER_01]: It's always by the founder.
10:48.487 --> 10:52.690
[SPEAKER_01]: It's always exact correct proper English or.
10:53.631 --> 10:54.953
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so it could be that.
10:54.993 --> 11:09.774
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're a formal, you know, say like universities and stuff they would have quite formal language and so it could be making sure the different grammar like you're always using Oxford grammars and all that's here that that are very traditional.
11:10.435 --> 11:21.431
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe you want to be more conversational, more led back, you know, that type of brand, and so you want to make sure that you're maybe using slang or clocalisms or things like that within your writing.
11:21.912 --> 11:24.896
[SPEAKER_02]: You're maybe, you know, one of the things on the list is sometimes
11:25.317 --> 11:31.660
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, is this the way you would say it to a friend if you're sitting at a bar or something with them or a cafe with them?
11:32.020 --> 11:35.122
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that how you would explain this to, you know, this product to them?
11:35.682 --> 11:39.063
[SPEAKER_02]: If it's not, you know, maybe you need to rethink that.
11:39.504 --> 11:51.149
[SPEAKER_02]: So with things like that, and it can't be in the finder's voice, that that can have problems because of the finder lives or, you know, whatever, and sometimes you don't always want it in the finder's voice.
11:51.229 --> 11:52.670
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, my brand,
11:53.170 --> 12:16.687
[SPEAKER_02]: professional me is quite different from me is just general a bit more polite a bit more you know I don't do certain things it won't swear and my copy or anything make that were as I would normal life you know I wouldn't bother me but I wouldn't in a professional setting and so with you obviously want to get that bounce between the finders actual voice and what's good brand and as well.
12:17.167 --> 12:17.587
[SPEAKER_01]: Got you.
12:17.728 --> 12:19.189
[SPEAKER_01]: And would that go?
12:19.209 --> 12:22.292
[SPEAKER_01]: The checklist goes nitty-gritty as for example.
12:22.692 --> 12:27.436
[SPEAKER_01]: Here at my business, we always write e-commerce with a small e-in a big sea and no dash.
12:28.477 --> 12:34.943
[SPEAKER_01]: It is nitty-gritty, obviously not 10 points that are all how to spell a word, but would that be the sort of thing you'd include?
12:35.746 --> 12:44.112
[SPEAKER_02]: It wouldn't be in the tone of voice guide, so the tone of voice guide is trying to keep it as can say it's possible, so Tam would be the maximum number of points I would have for that.
12:44.573 --> 13:03.547
[SPEAKER_02]: In the style guide, would it be that kind of information like what kind of language you use if you're in different locations, so if you're parent companies in Spain, but even UK, you know, officer or whatever, it's about what words you would use in UK, but maybe not in Europe, so it's different things like that and grammar and
13:04.107 --> 13:11.952
[SPEAKER_02]: the table, the more G's you do, if you would choose those, you know, so it's all those different things on, yeah, the nitty-gritty offer.
13:12.252 --> 13:16.555
[SPEAKER_01]: Go to style and tone-of-voice, consider them separately, but bring them together.
13:16.915 --> 13:18.536
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, possible, yeah.
13:18.636 --> 13:21.038
[SPEAKER_01]: To create this kind of style, differentiation.
13:21.378 --> 13:27.142
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, anything else on how we differentiate to make sure people go ahead and buy us, not someone else.
13:27.728 --> 13:42.864
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, there's lots of problems, I see when I say to people, what's curious, pay what's the unique thing about you and people would say things like over-family business or where the only ones in the UK or something like that.
13:43.304 --> 13:46.448
[SPEAKER_02]: And those things, anything that can be copied like that.
13:46.948 --> 13:48.450
[SPEAKER_02]: isn't a unique selling point.
13:48.610 --> 13:50.352
[SPEAKER_02]: It's something that can't be copied.
13:50.432 --> 13:58.780
[SPEAKER_02]: So you may be the only family business to do a certain, you know, product or have a certain business, but that's only for an eye.
13:58.921 --> 14:01.904
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone else could come along and then your ESP has gone.
14:02.764 --> 14:06.847
[SPEAKER_02]: You can still be the leader in that market, but it won't be a USP.
14:06.907 --> 14:11.631
[SPEAKER_02]: So basically anything that can be copied is not a USP.
14:11.651 --> 14:15.894
[SPEAKER_02]: You want something that's unique to you, that someone will not get anywhere else.
14:16.134 --> 14:21.058
[SPEAKER_02]: And it could simply be, for example, my business is still on with me and me as the person.
14:21.858 --> 14:45.032
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, vibe and with me and and like in me as a person and have not personalized approach so people don't like me they're not going to like my business you know so it could be that you know and as long as you have thick skin that's fine which I do so that's why the people don't like me that you don't have to work with me but you know it needs to be something that's unique to your business
14:46.095 --> 14:57.281
[SPEAKER_01]: do you find that because I certainly have found this over time is it's a lot easier to put a USP on a service based business than it is a product based business.
14:57.702 --> 15:01.264
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it can certainly be easier.
15:01.284 --> 15:05.586
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of service businesses are about the people and things with the NF that make it.
15:06.126 --> 15:22.372
[SPEAKER_02]: A product based, especially if it's maybe more affordable products, you know, that the can be got lots of different places, then yes, it certainly is more, it can be more difficult to find a what it is, but it could simply be the use of humor.
15:23.012 --> 15:41.437
[SPEAKER_02]: in your, you know, your copy that you're a bit tongue-in-cheek with things, and, you know, like, if you know of any of Virgin's ads, they're a bit cheeky, and they're a bit, you know, or when these over in America, you know, they're a bit, you know, on social media, they make fun of themselves, and other people, and even their customers and things.
15:41.897 --> 15:48.379
[SPEAKER_02]: So it could be something very slight, even like that type of personality in your copy that could make you different.
15:49.212 --> 15:56.037
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more about, I guess, it's more about differentiation than getting completely hung up on trying to find the perfect USP.
15:56.417 --> 16:01.661
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, pretty much, because and as I said, people think the USP has to be something extraordinary.
16:01.761 --> 16:02.502
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have to be.
16:02.582 --> 16:06.725
[SPEAKER_02]: It can be a very small thing, but it's just something that you're business does differently.
16:07.328 --> 16:19.644
[SPEAKER_01]: Nice, and are there any other, and obviously the differentiation is going to be a really big part of improving the results, but any other key elements that are worth bringing in to the mix as we're reviewing our copy.
16:20.687 --> 16:26.608
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there's the proof gap, which I often say is a problem in in coffee.
16:27.009 --> 16:36.771
[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, if you've got testimonials or guarantees or something, there's usually a problem with being vague.
16:37.431 --> 16:40.712
[SPEAKER_02]: So for testimonials that could be, this was a really great product.
16:40.772 --> 16:42.632
[SPEAKER_02]: I love this, you know, and that's it.
16:42.712 --> 16:45.513
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, well, that's not really helpful to anybody to be honest.
16:46.253 --> 16:54.655
[SPEAKER_02]: And so, and, and although sometimes there's nothing you can do about that, but you can sometimes guide people like, I would give for service businesses.
16:54.855 --> 16:59.776
[SPEAKER_02]: It's easier to do this, but it would be, you know, a template off high-eye healthy.
17:00.116 --> 17:05.697
[SPEAKER_02]: What the result was, you know, what problem you were having, how we dealt with that and what the result was.
17:05.757 --> 17:08.858
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can get them to break a dime and be more specific.
17:09.678 --> 17:26.995
[SPEAKER_02]: and so you can possibly do that if you're asking for a written reviews for e-commerce sites too, you know, ask them could they, you know, say what problem they had, how it helped them, you know, what they liked about it and be a bit more specific about it so that people can really get an understanding of
17:27.736 --> 17:50.062
[SPEAKER_02]: what's good about the product and why they should buy it, and that's specific, if I can even say, is also a problem with things like guarantee, so money back guarantee or something, you know that's okay, but you know how many people have maybe of the older fact, money back guarantee, you know, a lot of people have maybe used that you're like, okay, well, maybe, you know, this product doesn't great, and
17:50.722 --> 18:02.730
[SPEAKER_02]: and that guarantee really doesn't mean very much, so it's about being a specific as possible and if you have anything like that, you know, looking at it and saying, okay, how can I make this even more specific?
18:02.770 --> 18:15.638
[SPEAKER_02]: How can I really hone in on this and make it, you know, that people really believe what I'm saying here and are confident in buying it because they do think the guarantees worthwhile or the testimonials are helpful.
18:16.299 --> 18:24.811
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just about being with those things that are making trust factors that are building that up being a specific as possible.
18:25.437 --> 18:37.927
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is, I mean, tell me if this is way off base, but with the guarantee, I would assume that's having a really obvious link in the footer that goes to a page that explains the detail of the guarantee.
18:37.947 --> 18:39.648
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is what the guarantee really is.
18:39.748 --> 18:40.969
[SPEAKER_01]: This is how you claim it.
18:41.350 --> 18:43.491
[SPEAKER_01]: This is how we process it.
18:43.531 --> 18:51.658
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just to create that, you know, it is, but all money back guarantee and then the customer can go and actually find out the nitty gritty of it should they want to.
18:52.218 --> 19:18.117
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly and you should have a link that details that because a lot of people that that will be okay And if you have a nice little visual, it's quick Discum and say and you're like, okay, well, if they have that it must be, you know, okay Because they don't want to be given their money back to everybody so it must be you know There's some sort of truth in that, but yeah, you definitely should have more details elsewhere And it doesn't have to be on that page, you know, as long as you
19:18.778 --> 19:24.112
[SPEAKER_02]: it tell and maybe somewhere else to go and you don't have to put absolutely everything on the one page.
19:25.221 --> 19:25.681
[SPEAKER_01]: excellent.
19:25.902 --> 19:31.026
[SPEAKER_01]: And then anything else, I think a relevancy was one of the things you were talking to me about earlier.
19:31.146 --> 19:33.307
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we, how do we be more relevant?
19:33.928 --> 19:46.878
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so a lot of products they can give, you know, the technical specifications, you know, what's this measurement or those there, some whatever, and some don't do that and come across a lot of descriptions that don't really do that either.
19:46.918 --> 19:51.081
[SPEAKER_02]: So you do want to get those basics right first and the technical details.
19:54.924 --> 20:05.454
[SPEAKER_02]: but sometimes depend on the product, those are quite good because it shows you know what you're talking about and you're like, well, this person must know about this and because they're given this level of detail.
20:05.995 --> 20:14.042
[SPEAKER_02]: So that depends on what you're sailing, but the relevancy gap is also about what connects them to your product.
20:14.062 --> 20:16.465
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you bring some sort of emotion into it,
20:16.865 --> 20:38.213
[SPEAKER_02]: you know about the benefit or the transformation that that product will bring or what problem and that is so often for them you know a lot of the time we buy things especially now when you know the economy is not great people are watching what they're they're spending a bit more you know if someone has a problem and if it's something they really want dealt with no
20:39.153 --> 21:00.198
[SPEAKER_02]: if you really hone in on that and talk about that and the coffee and about high-dest product helps, then you know you've done a lot of the work there and simply by you know stating what it does maybe we can get that across and sometimes we because it's our products and maybe we know them really well we don't always realize that it's not maybe obvious to other people.
21:00.758 --> 21:08.766
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose it's like selling a fitted bed sheet and you give the dimensions in millimetres, but you don't say double.
21:10.830 --> 21:20.414
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, all the things that I'm talking size or whatever it might be, it's that that actually thinking it through thinking through the details from the eyes of the customer rather than yourself.
21:21.114 --> 21:23.615
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, and that's why it's really good.
21:23.735 --> 21:31.879
[SPEAKER_02]: I always go on about, you know, understand your customer engine so much research on your customer, but before you do anything, you know, right any copy.
21:32.319 --> 21:39.062
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the more you know that person and even their hobbies and stuff, you can bring that in, you know, and put that in the copy, you know,
21:39.482 --> 21:55.763
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe you could say when you're sitting there watching Desperate High Swipes, you can be using this product or you know you can add little things like that in the tools, the person that oh you you get them and you know that they'll be using this when they're sitting watching that program or something you know so it's it's little things like that.
21:56.465 --> 21:59.968
[SPEAKER_01]: any favourite ways of researching the customer.
22:00.109 --> 22:06.635
[SPEAKER_01]: I suppose everyone, the reason I ask is because everyone who does job similar to yours has a favourite way of finding out the voice of the customer.
22:06.895 --> 22:09.438
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's your preferred way to find that data?
22:09.978 --> 22:12.240
[SPEAKER_02]: To be honest, I don't often have a preferred way.
22:12.841 --> 22:18.026
[SPEAKER_02]: I like using multiple ways because you want this much information as possible.
22:18.606 --> 22:24.349
[SPEAKER_02]: So, when I'm like in a customer's, I will look at previous customers and it has to be an ID.
22:24.409 --> 22:28.411
[SPEAKER_02]: Customers, if you don't want that type of customer anymore, then you don't want to use them.
22:28.872 --> 22:36.195
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's people that have been past customers and you want to maybe do interviews with them, get as much information about them as possible.
22:36.876 --> 22:40.838
[SPEAKER_02]: I use forums like reddit and things or specialist ones.
22:41.158 --> 22:45.879
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, if I'm doing logistics companies, it'll be maybe supply chain forums and things.
22:46.479 --> 22:53.721
[SPEAKER_02]: They're quite good because they're people asking questions and have a normal conversation as well about the different problems and stuff they're having.
22:54.301 --> 22:56.241
[SPEAKER_02]: So forums are really good.
22:56.621 --> 22:57.961
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also social media.
22:58.482 --> 23:04.983
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's also like, there'll be academic research or business research, you know, if there's maybe
23:05.403 --> 23:11.344
[SPEAKER_02]: research on SMEs, no small-to-medium size enterprises within Northern Ireland or the UK.
23:11.825 --> 23:22.387
[SPEAKER_02]: It might give you, say, the top problems, their fearson at the minute with the stats and percentages on them, and things like that, you know, because that's evidence-based obviously, so that can be really helpful as well.
23:22.947 --> 23:31.269
[SPEAKER_02]: So I really like having a mix of all those different things to really back up what you're saying, and obviously getting a third-in-speak
23:33.850 --> 23:36.753
[SPEAKER_01]: love that real, real depth in that answer.
23:36.813 --> 23:37.894
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much Rebecca.
23:37.974 --> 23:47.342
[SPEAKER_01]: One last question on this for you before we head towards the inside of tips, which is we have a lot of copying in all it shapes and forms and our business is.
23:48.923 --> 23:56.392
[SPEAKER_01]: If we're going to start on this journey to gree do all the copy overnight is unachievable, where do we start?
23:56.412 --> 24:06.365
[SPEAKER_01]: Do we start with product descriptions and the product landing pages and then work our way back out through the customer journey or do we start top of funnel and then race the customer to the checkout?
24:07.320 --> 24:12.364
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would say, do your research first, get to know your customers when you've got all that done.
24:12.805 --> 24:24.234
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say start from the homepage and work the way because your homepage is the the me and thing that people are going to say, you know, usually, and I can't be other pages of bite page and pages and things.
24:24.274 --> 24:26.336
[SPEAKER_02]: So you obviously want to check your stats on that.
24:26.877 --> 24:32.446
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I would say once you get clear on that main section of, you know, what makes us different?
24:32.466 --> 24:40.799
[SPEAKER_02]: My people should buy from us, then it'll make everything else a lot easier because you can just carry that on and through your copy them.
24:41.338 --> 24:46.782
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's a lot like go to the stats, go to the stats, start on the big pages and then make the impact.
24:46.802 --> 24:50.325
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so yes, I don't know why, but then I'll just ask you a question.
24:50.345 --> 24:53.268
[SPEAKER_02]: No, but it's so small things and I see it so much.
24:53.288 --> 25:05.438
[SPEAKER_02]: I even am bigger, you know, companies where the basics aren't done or you forget about them or maybe they're not updated and things and it is just because sometimes I feel bad to tell them, you know, have you looked at the stats and things like that?
25:05.458 --> 25:05.558
[SPEAKER_02]: But
25:05.878 --> 25:11.847
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the time they haven't, and I mean, I've done it myself for real and we're upset where, you know, when you think, oh, I didn't check that.
25:11.887 --> 25:17.176
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's those basic things that once they're in place, the foundations are there.
25:17.356 --> 25:21.082
[SPEAKER_02]: It'll make everything a lot easier, and it is just sometimes remembered to do that.
25:21.449 --> 25:22.030
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so true.
25:22.130 --> 25:26.995
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a shiver going on my spine of the state of our home pages, but we're going to ignore that for now.
25:27.655 --> 25:31.379
[SPEAKER_01]: Rebecca, it's been brilliant picking your brains about truss gaps and conversion rates.
25:31.800 --> 25:36.584
[SPEAKER_01]: Listers, remember to stay tuned right to the end so you don't miss out on Rebecca's insider tips on all of this.
25:37.005 --> 25:39.207
[SPEAKER_02]: And my suggestions for other ways we can help you.
25:41.088 --> 25:44.450
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, Rebecca, so far we've gone deep into trust gaps.
25:44.650 --> 25:48.692
[SPEAKER_01]: Now you get to where I was with your insider knowledge about the whole of conversion rates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So for the following questions, your answer can be anything to do with conversion rates, but your course includes everything we've already been talking about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Rebecca, are you ready for the insider tips?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, that's that, thanks so.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Marvelous.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then let's start with newbie advice.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If we've inspired someone to take their first step, what do they need to know to give themselves the best chance of success?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think what we talked about earlier is how you're different and make it a specific as possible because once you get that right, you know, other things will be easier and you don't have to do everything at once, you know, like you said, you know, you've whole website, maybe you've loads of products and, you know, it's like, oh, where did I start and you've maybe social media and lots of different things that you're having to juggle as well.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and it's about starting small and once you get that basic done off, I'm different, that'll inform everything else.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Nice.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Once you've started, of course, you've got to keep optimizing, so watch your favourite way to improve performance.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I say to everyone do little and often.
26:52.071 --> 26:58.877
[SPEAKER_02]: So, again, marketing can be very overwhelming and copy, you know, writing copy and everything ticks a lot of time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, do small things, you know, even if it's one thing a day, you know, even if it's half a page a day, you know, as long as you get one small thing done and consistently do that, then you will get the results eventually.
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[SPEAKER_01]: nice.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And if someone listing wants to learn more, is there one cheap or free resource you would recommend?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a couple of breaks, obviously, as a writer, books are my favorite podcasts and everything are great, but there's books on my bookshelf that I would recommend to anybody.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that is influenced by Robert B. Caldini, thank you to the second image, and it's based on research, and it gives practical tips on why people buy and how you can incorporate that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And those kinds of psychological tips we're talking about into your copy and your marketing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: mind-blowing book.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't not sure you can call yourself a market if you haven't read that book.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And a second one also because of two absolute favorites that I recommend to anybody is that we copy right in hand, book by Joseph Sugarman.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Again, another staple.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very practical advice again and it's about how to write copy and especially for e-commerce.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's about how to keep what you're saying, but concise, you know, without losing any of that.
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[SPEAKER_02]: what you want to say, so it's really good.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I like both of those books because they're both very practical.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love a practical book.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, it's crystal ball time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's coming up in the next six to 12 months that we should be getting ready for?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so I've been sent people for a while now that with AI and everything, it's been more human, you know, because we were so used with everything being digital, and I haven't so many different social media channels and everything, but it's about being human and I because people are cynical and it's going back to us.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Trust factors again, people aren't really believe in who you are and, you know, there's a lot more.
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[SPEAKER_02]: more scams and things now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So it really is about being a human speaking to people like their another human being, not just you know a faceless person that's buying your product, even if you imagine speaking to a particular person that can really help and it's just being more personal and being different, you're not just a company, you know, you're your human being.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's so spot on.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've already seen it coming through with the SEO side of things.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's clearly, that's clearly power and being a human still.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Before we get on that rabbit hole, Rebecca.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Could you please let listeners know where they can find out more about you in your business and get in touch?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so you can find me on LinkedIn, it's my Mian Social Media Channel, and it's Rebecca Boyle, and our website, so it's www.lesser, which is L-I-S-S-A-H. L-S-A-N-Boyle.co.uk.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There we go, everybody.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Rebecca, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's been an awesome way to kick off our discussions about conversion rates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I thank you so much for being here.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No problem, thank you for having me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What a brilliant start to our series of episodes on conversion rate optimization.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Really getting to the heart of how you differentiate to make sure that customer remembers you and comes back and buys from you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Loads of cool bits and pieces there from Rebecca.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Great advice on how to research and understand your customers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you can create the content better.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We talked a lot about differentiation about those checklists for tone of voice and for style treat the most two separate things and of course UGC and some great book recommendations too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can get the links to all those things we discussed, the full transcript.
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[SPEAKER_01]: are notes and more at KeepOptomising.com.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You can also use our special direct episode short links just put KeepOpt.com forward slash the number of the episode into the URL bar and you'll go straight to the correct page of the website which now we're on over 300 episodes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's quite a lot there to find your way through.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When you get to the website please also add yourself to the Chloe Thomas newsletter so you don't miss out on any of the stuff we share by email either.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Keep Optimizing podcast.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You've enjoyed this episode and want to continue learning about conversion rates right now, then pick up our thread by scrolling up your feed to episodes wait for it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: 10 to 13, yes, number 10, number 11, number 12, number 13, because that was the last time we dedicated a whole series to conversion rates.
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[SPEAKER_01]: way back at the very beginning of this show in 2020.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, we've covered lots of different aspects of it over time since then here and there in other master classes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you can find a full thread of all of that in the short link, keep opt.com forward slash CRO.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And please do tell you a follow-in marks about the show because I want this to help them as well as to help you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I've got an individual episode recommendation for you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've had a great episode not very long ago about trust building conversions and experts and how you can use experts to help build all of that too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's episode 253 with Eric Sheencop.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Fascinating guy really cool example of how you can improve conversion rates with all this good stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Have a great week.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Make sure you listen to the next episode so we can help you to keep
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[SPEAKER_00]: Access everything, keep optimizing.
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[SPEAKER_00]: At keepoptimizing.com, that's within us, not as in.
