Tommy Sells Execution Watch on KPFT with Ray Hill

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Tommy Sells as a prisoner in Texas. If the state
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has its way, he'll be dead within the hour. This
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is Execution Watch Huntsville, Texas, death penalty capital of the
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Western World, where prison staff is preparing to put Tommy
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Sells to death by injecting him with a deliberate drug
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overdose during the next hour. Kpft's execution Watch were broadcast
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live coverage of the killing in Texas, the state responsible
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for more than a third of all US executions. Execution
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Watch host Ray Hill, legal analyst Jim Skelton, with criminal
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defense attorneys Susan Ashley, Larry Douglas, Mike Gillespie, and Jack Lee.
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Huntsville reporter outside the death house Gloria Rubek Houston vision
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reporter Jennifer Simmons. The night's featured guests is the condemned
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demand himself, Tommy Sells, who recorded an interview with execution
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Watch last month from death row. The execution Watch for
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Tommy Cells begins.
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Good even, Miss ray Hill. It is the third day
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of April two and fourteen, and tonight they're going to
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kill Tommy Sales. I interviewed Tommy Sales. I understand we're
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having technical difficulties with the radio version of the interview.
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We however, we're going to have a longer version of
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the interview on the televised version of this. So I'm
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going to take a few minutes here since we're going
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to have to fill a long problem without an interview,
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because the interview was to be twenty minutes on this
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show and longer on the television show. So I trust
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that somebody's working on the technology out there and we
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may have the interview, but at present we do not.
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The interview with Tommy Sales will be played on Houston
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Media Source at a time announced. Now. This is how
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you stay in touch with what we are doing, so
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that you will know when it is put up. You
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join our Facebook page. Execution Watch has a Facebook page.
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You can find us by going to your Facebook index
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asking for execution Watch and when you ask for that,
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they will plug you in and bring you up to
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Hoyle on that and you can watch the show, including
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the interview with Tommy Sales. Tommy is in Huntsville, Texas.
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He is in the death Watch Sale and he is
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awaiting the witnesses to cross the road. Board up. Can
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I get you to put Richard on their Richard, can
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you hear me?
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I can hear you.
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Right.
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The witnesses have just crossed the road.
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The witnesses you mean the media witnesses. Were there any
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other witnesses?
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Yes?
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There were, okay, so Tommy has somebody there at his
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request to witness his execution.
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Yes, sir, there were two groups of people that were
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led separately across the road.
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Okay. So to our audience, so that you know what's
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going on. When the witnesses crossed the road from the
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old administration building into the Walls unit, that means the
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process has begun. The witnesses do not go in until
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Tommy is strapped on the gurney and the needles are
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in his arms. It's a matter of moments now before
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they start asking him for his last words, and then
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whenever he gets through with that, they will apply the chemicals.
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There's some discussion about that. Richard. I want to thank
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you for calling in our reporter in Huntsville tonight, and Richard,
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I would appreciate your calling me if they come out, Yes, sir,
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thank you, sir, thank you. All right. Do we have
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a reporter from another vigil tonight?
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No?
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Actually, because I think that there is an event going
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on out at TSU tonight about police brutality, and Dave,
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who is Dave Atwood, who is normally a reporter from
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the visual is at TSU and he is participating in
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that event. Jim, what do you know about Tommy Salton?
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What happened in this case?
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First off, this is one of those cases where it's
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really really difficult to separate fact from fiction because the
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story he kind of tells is that he's been wandering
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around since he's a young kid thirteen or fourteen, coming
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for food and killing people is what he basically said.
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But let me know for in this particular case, he
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ended up in Del Rio, Texas, and he broke into
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a home of a Harris family in Del Rio, and
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then the home was a thirteen year old girl by
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the name of Calin and he sexually assaulted her. Then
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when he finished sexually assaulting her, he cut his throat
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and stabbed or something like sixteen times. And there's a
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ten year old girl spending the night with her at
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the home that night, and he did not sexually assault her,
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but he's got her throat over so she survived. And
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when she survived, when she was able to.
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Kind of help.
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She got a composite drawing of him. That's what led
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to his arrest. Of course, he confessed to that, as
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well as a multiple number of other murders and crime.
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He claimed seventy. How many was he actually charged with.
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He's got a couple of cases pinning in different states,
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but really the one major one that's been in Texas,
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and there's been an other assault cases we're going to discuss.
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This isn't the only as far as murders concerned, or
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other cases he got convicted of, and we're going to
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talk about some of his prior conviction.
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He spent a lot of time in prison.
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No, not at all.
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In fact, the longest stretch ever got was a ten
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year sentence that didn't spend much time on that one.
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Was that in Texas. No, it was in West Virginia,
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West Virginia, Okay, And he was he was traveling all
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around quite a bit. He was raised primarily in Missouri,
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born in Oakland, California, and apparently had a big problems
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at home. He stayed with the and her grandmother in Missouri.
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Then he pretty well was dumped when he was a
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young child, and after that he just wandered around all.
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Over the country.
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The media calls him a drifter. Can you catterize what? What?
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What that would conjure in your mind?
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Sure? What he according to what he see?
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It's hard to tell because a lot of it comes
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just from him and it's not verified. And apparently his kind.
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Remember remember Theodore Bundy. His trick on getting people to
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trust him. He'd act like he was crippled. He put
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a cast on his arm and be struggling and get
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a woman to help him, and then when the woman
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help him, he end up adopting, adopting, abducting her.
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And what he did.
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He was one of those guys that you see flagging
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signs of intersections, will work for food in hungry and
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apparently claimed to live under bridges, and that's how he
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lured many women to help him. Primarily all of his
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victims were either women or young women, and so he
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apparently prayed upon according to him and from some of
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his priors. We'll discuss that later with some of the
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other speakers. And it all usually is some type of
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young woman and usually someone trying to help him because they.
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Felt sorry for him.
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So that was the image we have from looking over
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his criminal history, but I'm surprised that he hadn't done
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a lot of time.
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He didn't do hardly anytime. He's I think, two different
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stretches and as long as time he was on a
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particular case, Susan's going to talk about where he raped
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a woman and ended up spending some time there, but
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he didn't stay in prison.
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That linking the length of time.
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Susan, you got the story for.
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Us, Okay.
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Essentially, what happens in this case is he is panhandling
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under an underpass and he has a sign, I'll work
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for food. The essential story is that a young woman
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feels sorry for him and she basically goes to give
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him some food.
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Susan, wouldn't she was. I think she's kind of an
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army child. She didn't know a lot about America.
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Rise figures that's what she said.
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She said she had lived in a different military basis
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all over the place. So he had a sign saying
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I'll work for food. But apparently she asked him if
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he was hungry. He said yes. She asked him if
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he had any family. He pulled out a picture of
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a woman with some kids and said that he and
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his wife and kids were all homeless and hungry. So
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she apparently was babysitting. She was staying at someone else's residence,
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babysitting their cat, and there was some junk food that
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that person had bought I guess for her to have,
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and she didn't want it, so she went with him.
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She took him with They went to a convenience store.
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She bought him a newspaper there. She thought he could
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look for help in the want ads. And they went
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over to this place that she was staying at. When
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they went there, he asked her if she was there alone,
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and she said yes, and then she went and packed
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up some food. She asked him to stay outside. She
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packed up the food, and then she went to get
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him a coke, and then apparently he was just inside
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the residents. And then after that, she's trying to get
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rid of them, and she asked him if there's anything
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else he wanted, and he told her he wanted that
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his wife needed some underwear. So she went into I guess,
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the bedroom where her suitcase was to give him some underwear.
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He followed her and then he ended up attacking her,
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and he attacked her.
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He raped her, but he also brought a knife from
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the kitchen rite season.
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Yeah, it was her night.
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What was on kitchen knife?
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Yeah, And then they ended up in the bathroom. She
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fought him, was fighting with him, and I guess there
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was a ceramic duck in the bathroom and she ended
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up hitting him over the head with the ceramic duck.
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That sort of broke things up for a while where
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she was able to at least try to get away
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from him, and she tried to get away and rean
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to the door, but then she wasn't able to get
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away and he caught her and then basically the attack
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kind of went on. He you know, tied her hands
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and feet up, and she, you know, ended up telling
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him that she was pregnant and her husband would be
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home soon and that she wouldn't tell anyone what happened.
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And he apparently put a blanket over her and made
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some half hearted attempt to smother her, and he ended
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up leaving. And what she ended up I guess basically
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what she said is she ended up outside that she
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was beaten up, bloody, naked in on the front porch.
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We left flunk thing out though during the struggle in
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the bathroom, she took the knife away from him, because
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that's how they caught him. Yeah, because she stabbed him
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a number of times too, and he ends up in
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the hospital. And that's one of the reasons they called
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him because she's apparently a pretty spunky gal because.
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She's the one that called him a whim.
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Well, no, what she did.
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She beat him.
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She said she hit him with that ductle. Nothing left
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was nothing left but the beak. That's what she had
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in her hand, and somehow she got a hold of
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the knife. She began to stab him where the wib
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park came in and she put the He put the
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blanket over her head to smother. She said it was
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a whimpy attempt to smother. I mean this, you're talking
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about a spunky gall. And so his case was tried,
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or did he He was tried, He pleaded this he no, No,
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he went to trial on it. And what happened after
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they go to trial on it. Apparently she made some
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contradictory statements because he was claiming consensual sex. She's claiming
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that he just met her and that she wanted to.
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Have she was going to put it, that's.
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Right, And so he claims concentral sex and apparently some
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herst story, stories or contradictory, and the prosecutor got concerned.
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He reduced the rape charges to what's it called, susan
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some they.
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Called it malicious wounding.
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Reduced it to that and gave him a ten year sentence.
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And how long did he serve in that ten year susan?
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It's only about what was it? A couple of years?
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A couple of years? And then he parolled out he
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did as far as her in the attack where she
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fought back, not with the duck, but she also got
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the knife. He got eighteen stab wounds.
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She's go do your job on him too.
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Yeah. Absolutely, But this in a case where you've got
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a real committed witness like that, what kind of represents asien?
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You have to take this scort to trial?
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I have no idea why we go to trial.
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I mean, if you had this case as a defense lawyer,
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a lot.
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Of time you go to trial because the offer is
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so big that you think you can beat it for
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the jury. And in this particular case, I don't knew
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if I don't know if the defense lawyers and you
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ahead of time, she's going to make contradictory statements.
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I have no idea.
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But Remember that was back during the time and we
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didn't have all the rape shield laws and a lot
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of protection for females who are testified. And apparently did
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a pretty good number on her on cross examination because
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they she got a little bit confused.
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So he probably had some quality representation.
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Sounds like it because they had to reduce the charges.
255
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And then there may be.
256
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Some But it was a horrible case.
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Well, it was one of those cases where both of
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them got stabbed.
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Pretty spicy case, and the cases in Delrio were not
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pretty cases.
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They're not pretty at all.
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Yeah, and you have a surviving witness to testify against him.
263
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Right now, that would have been a trial, right you
264
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don't plead to get on death row.
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That you can plead guilty, but the jury has to
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assess sentencing. But he didn't plead guilty. Well, there was
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never a q. He readily admitted the case Delrio, along
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with other occasions he claimed he did.
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Mike, what's cooking.
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His tales of misfortune. I have never seen a man
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voluntarily confessed to so many crimes. What we have is
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a man who was born and obviously born with a
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very troubled background. We have some hideous crimes that he
274
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was convicted of some hideous crimes that he went to
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jail for. But we have a laundry list of murders
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that he claimed he committed that has not been able
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to be verified. This man has claimed on two different occasions,
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00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:43.039
first that he's committed twelve murders and then to a
279
00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:48.519
doctor who's studying serial killers, made it seventy man was
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00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:50.720
only and a man for twenty years. He's made his
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first killing at sixteen, and then his last killing was
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in ninety nine when he was thirty five. So in
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00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:58.320
twenty years he claimed he kills seventy people. It's a
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lot of people to kill. The amazing part is that
285
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as he went around the country trying to show police
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agencies the people he killed in the bodies, some of
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00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:10.759
the people he claimed were dead were still alive. Some
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00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:13.080
of the people that he claimed dead, they couldn't find
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any bodies. They got to the point that at certain
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points he claimed the bodies were hitting in a well,
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the police wouldn't even go look in the world for
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the bodies until they could prove there was some truth
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to what he's saying.
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So so his credibility kind of lapsed. Now now where
295
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:31.679
did they take him.
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From They took him from prison, from death row, from
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death row, and then you got this other aspect. I
298
00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:41.879
mean my understanding that in prison it's not good to
299
00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:45.799
be killing kids, that even people in prison do not
300
00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:49.679
like people who killed children. The thing is that he was.
301
00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.519
Of any audience of people that's really enthusiastic about people
302
00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:55.279
that killed children.
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00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:59.440
In the Kennedy's Catholic cath In one of these cases,
304
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he beat a pregnant woman with a baseball bat till
305
00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:05.960
the baby popped out, and then he beat the newborn
306
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:09.919
baby to death. There might be a scenario in which
307
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.120
he wanted to get some brag and rice in prison.
308
00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:17.039
Maybe he had When I see so many babies being killed,
309
00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:19.919
it makes me think that maybe he's trying to build
310
00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.799
a reputation in the prison community that he's just not
311
00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:25.120
a baby killer, that he kills people too.
312
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Okay, we have a telephone call. Hello, Hello, Hello, you're
313
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on the air.
314
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.879
Oh Ray, I'm Jennifer Simmons and Houston.
315
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:37.720
Okay are you individual?
316
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.000
I am reporting from the vigil here for at the
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00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.399
corner of Maine and Ben Street in front of the
318
00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:44.039
Art Museum.
319
00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:46.159
Oh get next to the big Methodist Church.
320
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:49.159
Yeah. Yeah, we have a good crowd here, about ten
321
00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.440
people and it's sort of risty and human rainy, and
322
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:54.799
we're very disappointed Intreme Sport tonight.
323
00:16:55.480 --> 00:17:00.080
Well, we appreciate your concern. The Supreme Court was this
324
00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:05.559
scenario is beginning to get all to patterned. I'm afraid.
325
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:06.079
Yeah.
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We just believe there should be no secrecy in an
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execution protocol.
328
00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.640
Well, I you know, we're going to get into that
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a little later in the showman. Have the lawyers to
330
00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:15.359
that federally.
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I don't want to jump ahead of you all, but
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we think transparency is important in this process.
333
00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:24.920
Okay, would you give our regard to the visuals and
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00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.559
for you folks listening in the just just one other thing.
335
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:32.359
Our organization is the Coalition will Abolish the Death Penalty
336
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.440
of Courts, and we are meeting on April twenty fourth
337
00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.920
at the Montrose Library from six o'clock until eight and
338
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.240
we just want as many people to come out as
339
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.880
possible who are sick and tired of of what's happening
340
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:47.599
in Texas.
341
00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:49.759
Okay, and let me repeat that, because we're getting a
342
00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.680
little garbl in the sound. This is a Texas Coalition
343
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:54.279
to abolish the death penalty.
344
00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:54.960
Yes, y.
345
00:17:55.119 --> 00:18:02.640
And the website is TEA d t see ADP dot
346
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org dot org. And the next meeting is the twenty
347
00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:09.000
fourth of this month. What day of the week is that?
348
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:14.960
Gosh, don't make me guess that. Right now, four from
349
00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:18.839
six to eight at the Montrose Public Library.
350
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.119
The Mantras Branch of the Public Library System. Exactly, Thank you, ma'am.
351
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:23.839
Give our regards to the vigilance.
352
00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:25.759
Okay, thank you very much, right.
353
00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:30.599
Bie, And getting back, because this.
354
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:33.799
Is certain things about these stories that makes me suspicious.
355
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.759
First of all, it seems like they have too many
356
00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.119
times he had said things they could not find any
357
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:43.839
evidence of it. But more than that, there seems to
358
00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:46.480
be too many cases a pretty young woman trying to
359
00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:48.839
help out a beggar with food and help, and she
360
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.759
takes them home and something happens. The story is consistent,
361
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.119
and it's consistent that there's always a pretty young woman
362
00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:54.839
who picks them off.
363
00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:58.880
She's always pretty, she's always young. And yeah, it sounds
364
00:18:58.880 --> 00:18:59.799
to me like fantasies.
365
00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:01.480
We have to understand that.
366
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:06.559
And then sometime, however, there is some evidence of reality
367
00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:07.680
in at least a couple of cases.
368
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:10.680
Yes, the cases that he did are so horrible that
369
00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:14.279
makes everything believable. But he becomes a problem. When you
370
00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:16.960
have a man who has been documented and tried and
371
00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:21.279
convicted of horrible, horrible crimes because women and children, he
372
00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:24.160
becomes a celebrity to talk At what point of time
373
00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:26.680
does he become the center of attention where he can
374
00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.160
tell tales and everybody wants to listen to him. You
375
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:31.640
got gods, You got people in the prison systems who
376
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:32.319
will listen to this.
377
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:34.799
I think, Mike, what we want to do here, let's
378
00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:37.640
hear from Tommy himself, and then let's come back and
379
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:40.920
cut that particularly salt. Those of you with headphones are lucky.
380
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:42.799
You can put it on. You can listen to this interview.
381
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.319
Would you play the interview now? Please? What do you
382
00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:50.480
think they need to know? And that includes about everything?
383
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:56.799
I mean, my god, I had Lurch. I'mber lerg Yeah,
384
00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:58.599
I did that interview with Lurch and he said, you
385
00:19:58.599 --> 00:20:01.440
ain't gonna run this because I got bad things about
386
00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:03.720
the prison, John got bad things that about excuse and
387
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:05.079
watching me ran every word of it.
388
00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:09.319
Well, first of all, right, I want I want to
389
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:13.079
make sure men you straight. Yeah, uh, you ain't gonna
390
00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:14.599
do this until after they kill me.
391
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.119
Right, No, I'm going to do it while they're killing you.
392
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:18.759
Why they're killing Yeah.
393
00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:19.759
I will, I will.
394
00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:20.920
That's cool, that's cool.
395
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:25.519
Okay, Tommy, Tommy, I don't want to broadcast this show.
396
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:27.519
I understand that.
397
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:29.880
I hope you get to stay, and I hope something
398
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.240
happens in your case just like vanishes. Yes, and I
399
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:35.000
don't ever have to do it. I'm only going to
400
00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:41.160
use it if I do a show and I'm gonna
401
00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:46.759
broadcast your voice while you're literally strapped the table, You're
402
00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:48.359
gonna be more than strap to the table at by
403
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:53.759
time your interview stars. Okay. In the meantime, if anybody
404
00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.160
wants to get their hand on this thing, they're gonna
405
00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:00.440
have to kill me first, because I hain't up in it.
406
00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:03.319
If I get a subpoena, I'm gonna say, put my
407
00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:05.119
ass in jail. I ain't afraid to go to jail,
408
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.559
been there, have friends there.
409
00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.279
I do well in jail, I understand.
410
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.559
So I'm not afraid of them. They ain't gonna get
411
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.000
this out of me. They ain't gonna get it out
412
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:15.839
of Purdle, they ain't gonna get it out of Elizabeth.
413
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:20.759
Right, now my first question to you. Yeah, if I've
414
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.519
heard you say over and over, this is about the
415
00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:27.319
record that y'all go on on the execution watch sure.
416
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.359
How many times you know yourself that record be wrong?
417
00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:33.480
How many times have I pointed that out? How many
418
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.440
times I've asked us lawyers question? But you you don't.
419
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.519
Why ain't this part of the interview. I haven't started
420
00:21:39.519 --> 00:21:46.680
the interview yet, Oh, because I thought, Okay, okay, now
421
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:50.319
this is the deal. First place, I need your permission
422
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.960
to broadcast this under the arrangements that it will not
423
00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.400
be broadcast unless you are on the guarnee and the
424
00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:02.079
process has begun. Yes, okay, I need your permission to
425
00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:06.000
show the video after that. Yes, okay, that's cool. All
426
00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:10.039
of that done. Uh, the interview begins. Yes, okay, Now
427
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.519
before you get into what you were doing, let me
428
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:14.640
say I live being.
429
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:17.319
On a road uh over thirteen years?
430
00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:21.359
Over thirteen years? Yes, and you came out of Del Rio, Texas,
431
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:24.400
Del Rio, Texas, and you live in Del Rio, Texas
432
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:24.960
where you're from?
433
00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:29.640
No, I'm from uh all over? Okay, I'm a gypsy child.
434
00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:32.599
You're a gypsy child. You know we've interviewed gypsy child
435
00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:35.160
down here before? Uh, how well were you in now
436
00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:36.279
del Riou?
437
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:39.359
I met a woman down there and decided to get married.
438
00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:44.240
Okay, so you went to Del Rio, Texas and uh
439
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:50.079
uh uh you lived on the road everywhere? Yes, tell
440
00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:52.680
me about who you were living on a road going
441
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.359
every more? Who? Who? Who was that guy?
442
00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:03.160
Uh? Just a burnout drug addict trying to make his way.
443
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.319
Dipsy looking for a.
444
00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.519
Place to pitch tent didn't have the ten didn't matter
445
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:10.039
as the tent didn't didn't give that mn about the tent,
446
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:12.240
just I was out there in the wind.
447
00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:17.240
Okay. See that that that tells these folks who you
448
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:17.480
were that?
449
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:18.079
Uh?
450
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.319
How you been on death for a thirteen years?
451
00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:20.640
Yes?
452
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:21.880
What is that done to you?
453
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.039
Oh? It's It's opened my eyes to a whole different
454
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:30.400
life that I never knew about. Uh. You've heard a
455
00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.440
lot of people say that if they could do it different,
456
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:40.119
they would. I know I would, because the hate left
457
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:44.319
me when I when I came here. The rage left
458
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:48.319
me when I came here and and seen all the
459
00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.519
the the stuff that was going on. I wasn't masking
460
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:54.200
it no more. I wasn't masking the pain that I
461
00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:54.799
was feeling.
462
00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:57.720
Tell me about that pain.
463
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:08.000
Oh, it just drowning out the pain of uh, abusive
464
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:09.799
childhood and.
465
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.039
Had abusive childhood, all real, real abuse isolated.
466
00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:16.519
That's that's part of the record that w y abandon.
467
00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:20.440
Yes, yes, and how well when did you strike out
468
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:21.000
on your own?
469
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:25.640
Oh twelve?
470
00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:29.720
Were you running away or just got left on the road?
471
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:31.119
Just got left out there?
472
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:32.440
You got left out.
473
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:33.640
I never had to run away.
474
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:35.640
They hadn't had had to defend for yourself.
475
00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:44.960
Yeah, yeah, And I just kept defending for myself. And
476
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.440
here I am on death row.
477
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:52.240
And along the way you doused the pain with drugs
478
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:55.000
in our hall very much? Did that work?
479
00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:59.920
No, not even close, not even close. It just mass
480
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.920
mass the pain that I was feeling. Can cause more rage.
481
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:09.000
How older man are you now?
482
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:14.839
Forty nine? The same age I thought you was gonna
483
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.079
say you I was gonna say, come on now.
484
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.039
Rage seventy three.
485
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:22.839
You've been doing the prison show.
486
00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:25.279
Reverse your age and that's my number.
487
00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:28.119
Yeah.
488
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:32.039
No, I did prisoner for thirty years and I thought
489
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:32.960
I did a good job.
490
00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:36.359
Uh. That's the only reason I agreed to the interview.
491
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.480
Uh. Okay, now you want to talk about excuse from
492
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:42.359
watching prison show?
493
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:50.640
Well, the excuse watch. Well, you have said many times
494
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:54.920
I do this generally, what what's on the record, what
495
00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:58.440
we go by, and you know how many times that
496
00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:02.559
record's been wrong. But when they're killing that person that
497
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:05.119
y'all's talking about, that's all you refer to.
498
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:08.599
Is there's all the lawyers refer to. You'll see me
499
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:11.359
step in every once in a while and challenge it.
500
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:12.759
It don't happen often.
501
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:16.359
But it does. And the reason it does is because
502
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:19.759
I think they're stuck out obvious that the record. I
503
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.640
do know, Patrono, the record. If you read the newspapers
504
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:29.480
about Willingham, and you read the court trial about Willingham, Yes,
505
00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:32.720
he was one guilty son of a god, a horrible thing.
506
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:36.160
All you gotta do is say there wasn't an arson
507
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.799
and he's totally innocent. Right, And the governor of this
508
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:45.000
state has gone to the wall a dozen times so
509
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:49.200
that that doesn't come out. It's then the newspapers this week.
510
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:53.960
Or I read it about where the prosecuting attorney made
511
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:58.640
a deal with a confidential informant, yeah, or the jail
512
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:00.200
house knicks it wasn't no common.
513
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:06.440
Yeah, he bond and paid for with more life. That's right,
514
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:10.359
and and and and and you know how often that happens.
515
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.160
And and that don't come out in the record. No,
516
00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:15.880
that's not and that's not about the record that they're
517
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.599
talking about on your show Execution.
518
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:22.200
We have done shows. I've done shows where all of
519
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:24.680
the lawyers and I agreed that they killed an innocent
520
00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:26.200
man that night.
521
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.559
You remember when when Chester got a that dude was
522
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:35.960
thrown off nine Kinds of Sunday. He was mentally challenged
523
00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:40.039
and retarded, and they killed a manly challenged and retarded person.
524
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:43.599
I live by that dude. I know him. Can't read,
525
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:50.240
can't write, matter of fact, David even couldn't hardly make
526
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:51.039
out his letter.
527
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.720
And you know, we just had Winston Cochran on the show.
528
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.519
Last show we do had the defensive lawyer in the
529
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:03.039
Final Appeals of Bilsoyd Winston Cochran on first time I
530
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.799
had Winston cochranan I wasn't even doing execution much I
531
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.599
do in the prison shop right and Winston came in.
532
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:12.480
He was falling to pieces. He said, my client could
533
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:16.359
not even make complete sentences. He spoken kind of words, Sally,
534
00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:20.880
and they just killed him. And I don't know how
535
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:26.119
that happened. So sometimes the lawyers can't stop the determination
536
00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:28.960
of the state to murder.
537
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.759
That I live with, cause I see that every day.
538
00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:37.079
I don't see I I see what the public don't see.
539
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:40.839
I live with these fellas. They're good people and and
540
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:43.680
and put 'em in the right circumstances. They're no more
541
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:46.680
in danger than than a flee on on on a dog.
542
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:50.400
It's it's just they're they're they're not dangerous. They're good
543
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.799
people and and and they're being killed right and left
544
00:28:54.519 --> 00:28:59.240
because the court saying that there's no hope for him,
545
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:02.519
and and they're just it's wrong. You know. I consider
546
00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:07.240
myself upholster boy for the death sentence. I have no
547
00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:12.799
quarrels about being executed. They they're they're doing me a favor.
548
00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:15.759
I'm I'm ready to get the hell out of here.
549
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:20.240
Sound like work? What time to go? Y?
550
00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.079
It's it's yeah, it's time to go. It's it's like
551
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:28.799
they put me on level on death watch. Yeah, and
552
00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:31.359
then then write somebody up for sending me something to
553
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.200
drink in the day room because I can't make store.
554
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:36.759
And they write somebody up knowing they they got me
555
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:39.720
around all these level warn people. That's not gonna let
556
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:43.039
me suffer. But but they gonna write 'em up for
557
00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:45.839
sending me something to drink. That's a trick bag. They're
558
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:47.599
putting people in back here.
559
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:49.240
Is this something happened recently?
560
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:49.839
It it?
561
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:49.960
Ha?
562
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:51.240
Yeah, this past week?
563
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:55.640
Well, I mean, you're on death Watch. I can't put
564
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:56.039
you in there.
565
00:29:56.119 --> 00:30:01.559
Lord, you wouldn't think so, would you. But but they
566
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:04.200
come on, right, you're not new at this game, you
567
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:04.640
know if.
568
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:07.599
No, no, no, no, no, no, I remember, I mean,
569
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.200
I've had conversations with Wayne Scott, who moved Death Row
570
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.640
over here after garooling. Right now, you weren't around on him.
571
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:16.440
No, No, I came two thousand.
572
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:19.160
But those legends don't die on the row soon.
573
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.359
No, I followed that.
574
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:26.000
Billy Hughes is alive and well on death Row. Yes,
575
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:29.640
because of the he and I and Wayne Scott as
576
00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:36.279
Death Row sergeant got the work program in place many
577
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:40.160
many years ago, okay, and they took it after Garouley escaped.
578
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.200
They ended it, yes, because they thought he was doing
579
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:45.640
some plotting in Planet. Well, if Garouley been doing a
580
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:47.279
lot of plottin and Planet, and why is he the
581
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:49.079
only one made it? Defend right?
582
00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:53.759
Why have they not had a some kind of program
583
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:55.880
for us in thirteen years? Why have I didn't have
584
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:56.880
done nothing but city?
585
00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.000
Well, you understand that the Guards Union has joined you
586
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.799
and check breaking that up. I know you all are
587
00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:04.039
talking about that back there.
588
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:09.559
Here's what we know that the only thing they know
589
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.839
about is punishment. They they don't pull you aside and
590
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:15.480
say you know that that wasn't cool what you did?
591
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:17.720
Won't won't you just cut it out before we have
592
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:20.319
to step up. They just want to put their foot
593
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:22.880
on your neck. And that's all we know for sure.
594
00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:26.519
That's that's that's what we know. And and they gather
595
00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:28.759
their foot pretty hard on my neck right now.
596
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:37.000
Oversemble to drink, yeah, top of coffee, something to drink.
597
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:43.480
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's so so the other guy's
598
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:44.640
supposed to get level.
599
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:47.359
Now, if I'll be working death throw, I'd bring you
600
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:48.160
a cup of coffee.
601
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:56.039
It's they micro managing us just sideways. It's it's it's
602
00:31:56.119 --> 00:31:59.960
just and and and of course you know they see
603
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:02.039
no wrong in it. They they want to figure out
604
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:05.799
more ways to to micro managers. And and sometimes you
605
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:10.039
have to just let fellas be fellas. You know, I mean,
606
00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:13.759
I'm I'm on a level for having a sheet up.
607
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:18.480
Okay, now you w a cell busaif you can put
608
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:19.000
up a sheet.
609
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:22.400
Well apparently not, cause I did and I went to
610
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:27.480
level for it, or I got level for it. They
611
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.319
they took my two special visits that that she was
612
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:33.039
on her way. They took that. Then I ain't had
613
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:39.640
no commissary since since December, and and uh you know,
614
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:43.559
took my radio, my uh fan, I mean, my hot pot,
615
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:45.680
and and the nightlight.
616
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:53.880
And because of putting up a towel a sheet s yes, well,
617
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:55.880
I'm glad you're talking about that because I think that
618
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.319
I'm already just wants you to hear that and hear
619
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:01.240
what's going on, because if they nobody says it, you know,
620
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:04.480
and the free world's idea is that you know, other
621
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:06.640
than the days you step out to play golf, you
622
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:09.359
go to the swimming pool, if.
623
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:11.359
If somebody would just pull the records on the right
624
00:33:11.480 --> 00:33:17.000
up set, they do issue punishment for their the the
625
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:20.599
the punishment don't match the the the the right up
626
00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:23.720
and I just got my step two back on. I
627
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:26.720
filed a step one step two and they said due
628
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:32.359
process was was was done, and we followed all the guidelines.
629
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:38.000
They don't know about due process. Come on now, due process.
630
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:40.599
They followed their guidelines.
631
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:45.559
Well if is it every garden or are there worse
632
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:46.599
gardens than others?
633
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:51.559
Well you know the answer to that, I'm I.
634
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:54.319
Mean no, no, But by audience, don't have a hint.
635
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:58.240
Uh there there there's some that that you know, treat
636
00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:01.200
you like like decent folks, and and and they get
637
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:04.000
along with people back there. But then there's some that
638
00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:07.079
just come in there with a chip on their shoulder,
639
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:10.920
and and and just wants to make a major case
640
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:14.599
out of some petty ass board and and and if
641
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:18.719
somebody could just come and say save me sp that
642
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:19.599
that's all it would take.
643
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:24.400
Yeah, the these people ain't so the the the people
644
00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:26.760
on row ain't so hard headed that if you try
645
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:33.039
to tell them something, they're not gonna listen to you.
646
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.719
You follow one of them, Oh you're understanding. I understand
647
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.599
everything you had. More importantly, the audience that folks that
648
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.519
are looking over my shoulder at your face can hear
649
00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:44.320
that you are sincere about what you're talking about. And
650
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:47.840
that's the important thing is that this is your opportunity
651
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:49.760
to tell somebody what do you think they need to
652
00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:52.599
know about where you are and what life is like there,
653
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.039
and and about this whole process.
654
00:34:55.440 --> 00:35:01.920
Well, I wanna get back to the record. Okay, you
655
00:35:01.960 --> 00:35:06.079
know they say I'm a serial killer. Yeah, I'm I'm
656
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:07.159
sure that, ain't you know?
657
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:07.679
Shocking?
658
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:10.079
No, No, I've I've run across that phrase and reading
659
00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:10.760
about you yet.
660
00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:14.000
Yes, yes, what where's the proof on this ray?
661
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:14.679
Yeah?
662
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:17.679
I know I have has Have you run across that?
663
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.480
No, I haven't run across any any tengible evidence that
664
00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:21.719
you were a serial killer.
665
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:25.519
But but they convicted me saying that I was a
666
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:30.880
serial killer. They don't even have the proof. I had
667
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:33.800
a lawyer in San Antonio tell me if I took
668
00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:36.920
that guilty plea there, that they would h have a
669
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.000
better opportunity to give me a life sentence on this case.
670
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.440
If if I done had a life sentence. That's advice
671
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:47.199
how I took for taking that case in San Antonio.
672
00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:49.480
And and I d I didn't do it, didn't You.
673
00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:51.719
Don't have any knowledge of the case in San Antonio.
674
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:56.880
I couldn't even tell 'em it was by uh a
675
00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:01.920
weapon or something? Huh what? D No? No, where they
676
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:04.760
keep the cattle the stockyard?
677
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:05.920
Stockyard.
678
00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:08.000
I couldn't even tell him it was by a stark
679
00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:09.400
a stockyard.
680
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:12.960
Well you know who you sound like, Henry Lee Lucas.
681
00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:16.840
Henry Lee Licas confessed the crimes all over this country.
682
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:19.639
And finally the Attorney general said, wait a minute, we're
683
00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:23.119
fixing to execute a man for a crime in Texas
684
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:27.400
that happened twenty minutes after he is convicted of a
685
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:29.679
crime that happened in Florida. How did you do that?
686
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.239
And they asked, Henryly handed it. He said, well, you've
687
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:35.519
seen a star trek where you get into thing and
688
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:36.280
you tell her.
689
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.400
Beat me up, Scotty and.
690
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:44.000
Beat me up Scottie. And so then the governor said, no,
691
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:50.960
I'm gonna stay this execution, but tell me about the process.
692
00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:54.880
They're so anxious to solve their crimes that they'll hang
693
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:56.039
it on anybody that.
694
00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:58.280
Comes along, anybody that's willing to.
695
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:02.960
Be the light you and still to get the right
696
00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:03.719
kind of confession.
697
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.960
Yes, there's no question about that. In my mind. I
698
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:10.280
know for a fact they catered to my needs and
699
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:11.559
my wants, and.
700
00:37:11.840 --> 00:37:15.920
You got the attention this this sounds like a flashback
701
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:18.639
to Henry Lee. I mean, I got Henryly confessed to
702
00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:20.599
all those crimes because they got to travel.
703
00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:23.719
Yes, they took they they fed him well they yes,
704
00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:26.960
the stakes and and and and I mean.
705
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:30.400
And it was simply a matter of like today's comfort
706
00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:32.360
for the end of your life.
707
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:37.760
Yes, but you're not sending in quite that light because
708
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:42.280
because you know you're in trouble. But but but but would.
709
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:44.320
You look in that camera and describe.
710
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:47.199
That, uh, describe what what.
711
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:51.760
We're just talking about about about I'm isolated. I've been
712
00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:55.159
abandoned so much. I'm all alone in this world, and
713
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:57.800
all of a sudden, I'm getting all this attention. All
714
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:02.079
I got to do is be the patsy I had
715
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:02.280
to be.
716
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:06.800
They wanted me to be something that I didn't quite
717
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:10.280
understand at the time. I was only uh thirty five
718
00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:13.199
and and and and coming off of drugs and alcohol
719
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:16.559
and and they put me in a a cell with
720
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:20.159
nothing and then they say, you know, you start talking
721
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:23.159
to us and we'll work with you. It was no
722
00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:25.679
smoke in jail, but they took me out three times
723
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:30.480
a day to smoke. They they they provided me with
724
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:34.280
with uh tobacco in the cell so so I could
725
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:40.840
uh dip and and and uh uh ah have that
726
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.320
next team fixed fix you know, and and and uh
727
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:46.920
the jailers would come around and and and give me
728
00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:49.880
a little little treats on the side. And then for
729
00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:52.559
for the eight months that I was in in uh
730
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:55.639
Valverde County jail, they they treated me like like a
731
00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:57.960
king in there, and and and.
732
00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.800
You had never been treated that way before.
733
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:04.239
No, no, especially in no jail. I'm I mean, but
734
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:06.960
all this time, the Texas Rangers, you know, the good
735
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:09.679
old boys, coming over and making sure I got what
736
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:14.360
I need and and and and uh that nobody's pressuring
737
00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:17.559
me over in the jail, and and and you know,
738
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:21.360
they're getting me every day and taking me to to
739
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.719
the restaurants there and and and having us food ordered
740
00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:29.679
and and and they took me to Arkansas and and
741
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:34.400
out of hole and and Las Vegas and and uh
742
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:41.599
Oklahoma were wrecked their plane in Oklahoma. Uh, I mean
743
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:47.280
it was an adventure and and and and they got
744
00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:51.000
confessions out of me. They say, what what you'd see
745
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:55.480
in the house. I'm like, well, there there's some watermelon
746
00:39:55.639 --> 00:39:59.960
uh triaming stuff right right? How how many how many
747
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:06.639
the houses got some watermelon ceramics or or watermelon plate?
748
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:11.639
Sorry, hey, Tommy, you are doing exactly what I want
749
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:13.239
this show to do.
750
00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:14.320
Uh.
751
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:18.639
You're telling the people in this audience the reality of
752
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:19.199
your life.
753
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:20.400
Uh.
754
00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:22.360
And you're not alone.
755
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:32.000
No, No, I let them sugarcoat a bunch of stuff. Okay, stroll.
756
00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:37.079
Stephanie strows Is is a girl that was going to California,
757
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.320
I mean from from New York to California. And she
758
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:43.880
signed to Hitchhick and and they knew that I had
759
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:46.639
been out the last place that they had seen me.
760
00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:50.119
And and they said, you know who Steffaney strow Is.
761
00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:54.920
I said, huh. And and then they told me the
762
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:58.559
story about she started out to California and went was
763
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:03.239
working her way to californ I said, well, she a hippie.
764
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:05.440
As if she would be anything else.
765
00:41:05.719 --> 00:41:09.599
Yeah, And and cause sh she's his hiking across the country.
766
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:12.119
And and she got some bongold drums with her, and
767
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:15.400
and and and and and and that's how they said
768
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:16.599
that I committed.
769
00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:19.199
Knew enough about the case, yes.
770
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:23.400
Yes, And and it was one case after the other case.
771
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:26.320
Tommy, hold hold up, hold up, running out of time.
772
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:29.840
I understand the case in Illinois. They said that I
773
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:33.599
killed the Dardine family, right, did the the Texas Ranger
774
00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:37.079
dude came in. He said, Tommy, you know anything about that?
775
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:39.519
And I said, did the dude have his cut off
776
00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:46.599
and his draw jaws dropped? I was just spending smart ass. Yeah,
777
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:51.480
sure enough, dude had his cut off and and that
778
00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:54.079
was evidence or all? That was evidence enough.
779
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.280
Tommy's else. I don't wanna do this show, but I
780
00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:02.360
guarantee you if I do this show, my audience would
781
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:04.599
be better educated than in the show I've done.
782
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:08.800
You thinks, so yep, I appreciate it right here.
783
00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:10.639
I'm gonna be here talk to you a few minutes.
784
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:11.800
I'm just ending the interview.
785
00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:15.119
You tell, uh, Margaret, I said, I love her.
786
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:21.679
I'll tell everybody, Margaret especially, Yes, you hang in there, son.
787
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:24.320
I hope that it stay comes. I hope that madness
788
00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:26.800
incident and that it worked for Henry Lee.
789
00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:29.840
I hold it. This ain't no work for Henry Lee.
790
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.480
No, it worked for Henry No, no, no, no, Henry Lee.
791
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:37.519
Was it was realized how they had used him to
792
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:43.239
solve dozens of cases. Yes, and Uh. The Attorney General
793
00:42:43.239 --> 00:42:47.760
at the time was Gym. Maddocks went to George Bush
794
00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:52.079
and said, it's on you cause I ain't standing behind
795
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:57.360
this execution. This guy is uh not guilty of all
796
00:42:57.400 --> 00:43:02.199
of these crimes, and George Bush commuter the sentence to life.
797
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:04.559
I understand that, and I'm not trying to do that.
798
00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:06.079
I'm trying to tell the people.
799
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:08.639
But yeah, yeah, God, this ain't gonna broadcast until they
800
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:09.800
got your damn gurney.
801
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:12.400
I understand that. I'm trying to tell what they will
802
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:15.639
do to get that confession. Yeah, that's what I'm trying.
803
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:18.159
I think I think my audience needed to understand that.
804
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:21.480
And they they will lie, cheat, and still to get
805
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:23.840
that confession. The good old boys, yep.
806
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:27.199
They divide the world up the good guys and bad guys,
807
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:28.280
and we're all the bad guys.
808
00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:29.800
Yeah.
809
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:31.840
Well, when you get back on the road, give will
810
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:35.039
give the boys my love. I will tell 'em those
811
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:37.199
cards and letters make a difference in my thinking.
812
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:38.679
You like my poem?
813
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:39.119
Yep?
814
00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:40.119
Will you read it?
815
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:40.519
Yep?
816
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:43.800
When you do my show, Yep, got your poem, I'll
817
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:47.000
make it happen. Okay, that's pretty good one, wasn't it.
818
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:48.320
That's a good one. Yep?
819
00:43:48.599 --> 00:43:50.519
Did you read it? I did read alright?
820
00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:52.239
Right, yep?
821
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:57.239
Getting here he does get money. Longly, you know that I.
822
00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:01.920
Came to this mother sentence to a hundred and sixty Yes,
823
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:05.719
you know you been here. Yeah, worked my way out
824
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:08.400
with a pencil after four years, four months, seventeen days.
825
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:12.400
I wish you as well. Course it too late for that.
826
00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:14.559
Pour four years, four month you got thirteen. Then.
827
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:17.800
Now you know, I have had good lawyers. They've kept
828
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:21.639
me here alive this long. Yeah, but they're not trying
829
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:24.559
to hear the the issues of my case.
830
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:25.599
Yep. Uh.
831
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:28.239
My my lawyer was the same one as Travinal that
832
00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:31.320
made the Travinal case. Yeah, no, no, no, no, I
833
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:34.320
mean the state havebust lawyer was my same state Haby
834
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.280
it's as Travinals. And they say, yeah, he can get
835
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:40.679
some action, but I cannot get that action. But we
836
00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:42.440
had the same state have as lawyer.
837
00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:45.239
Oh tell your lawyer with l Elizabeth loved to talk
838
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:46.840
to him.
839
00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:47.960
Hilary's share.
840
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:49.960
Hilary shares. You got that, Lizabeth.
841
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:54.800
Matter of fact, she Hillary shared It's on tax she
842
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:58.920
sheet sheet. She said, uh about you in particular, you're
843
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.639
the worst of the evil. Okay, doing the interviews for she,
844
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:03.480
I know.
845
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:05.679
I know she doesn't understand that I will go to
846
00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:07.480
jail before anyone gets their handle.
847
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:10.320
On No, no, she she yeah, she did understand that,
848
00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:15.000
she knew that that talking to you was was not
849
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:19.760
a problem. Okay, she gave her a blessing. Okay, in aroundabout.
850
00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:23.199
Boy, Okay, well listen, I love you all right, good luck,
851
00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:25.360
give my love to the boys.
852
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:26.239
I will.
853
00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:36.360
Well, this is Ray hillback. And that was an interview
854
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:40.280
with Tommy Sails. Tommy Seales is dead. At about ten
855
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:44.960
minutes ago, about six thirty, we got words that the
856
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:48.599
witnesses had come out. That was a little bit different time.
857
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:51.239
The last time the witnesses crossed the road, they were
858
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:54.239
in there for fifty two minutes. This time they were
859
00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:57.440
in there for less than thirty minutes. So whatever new
860
00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:00.440
drugs they've got seemed to be more efficient than the
861
00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:05.000
drugs that were using on this day last week. Mike
862
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:09.320
Lesbie step back from the toll the microphone, having been
863
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:13.000
pleased that I ask Tommy the question that he wanted
864
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:16.760
to raise. You will be able to see that interview
865
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:22.039
and its extended form when the videotape is compiled for
866
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:26.719
Houston Media source Larry Douglas, what's your take on this?
867
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:31.880
Well, Jim and I were talking about the tragedy of
868
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:38.480
of the of of of Tommy Lynz Seals his whole life,
869
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:41.920
and the quote came up, I think he died the
870
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:45.760
day that he was born. That's a quote from a
871
00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:49.639
boxing promoter regarding the tragic life and the sudden death
872
00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:56.360
of former heavyweight boxing champion Charles Sonny listonff Listen had
873
00:46:56.519 --> 00:46:58.559
had a tragic life, but it does not in any
874
00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:04.280
way compare to the life of Tommy Lynn Seals. He
875
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.920
never had a chance. Tommy Lynn and he had a
876
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:16.199
twin sister, Tammy Jean Sales, were born in an Alameda County, California.
877
00:47:16.760 --> 00:47:22.599
Tom they were born, the mother and father allowed them
878
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:26.519
to allow the father, Seals to be to have the
879
00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:31.360
children named after him, but his actual father was not Sales,
880
00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:34.280
but it actually guy named Joe Levin's. And this was
881
00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:38.760
the scheme because Sales was an insurance salesman and he
882
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:42.320
used the children he named them in order to get
883
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:43.880
up on at an insurance scheme.
884
00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:47.159
Oh he was. He was going to beat the insurance
885
00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:48.159
company out of some money.
886
00:47:48.199 --> 00:47:52.559
Apparently so well. When they were about eighteen months old,
887
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:55.280
the mother moved the children, and there were several children
888
00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:57.159
by this time because there were two older brothers and
889
00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:00.960
the twins were born, and then three younger brothers. Months old,
890
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:04.920
the mother moved the family to the Saint Louis area,
891
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:10.960
and shortly thereafter they both got meningitis. The sister, Tammy died,
892
00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:16.199
Tommy survived, but Tommy's survival was to a cruel life
893
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:18.320
and back. By the time he's two years old, his
894
00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:21.719
mother sent him to live with an ant from the
895
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:23.239
time he was two years old till about the time
896
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:25.239
he was five years old. We don't know exactly what
897
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:28.440
happened during that time, but during the time framed the
898
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:33.800
ant asked to adopt Tommy, and the mother just exploded
899
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.159
about that. She says, she went and took took Tommy
900
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:39.360
back and told the ant the ant couldn't even have
901
00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:44.039
any contact with him anymore. And Tommy was a difficult child.
902
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:47.000
He started to skip school at the age of seven.
903
00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:53.679
He was smoking by the age of eight, using pot
904
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:57.559
by the age of nine or ten years old, and
905
00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:00.599
as a very young boy, a young man, an old
906
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:03.280
a grown man took took a liking to him and
907
00:49:03.320 --> 00:49:06.440
started lavishing him with gifts and so forth. But it
908
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:08.679
turned out that young that that grown man was a
909
00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:14.639
pedophile and uh and by the time Tommy got to
910
00:49:14.679 --> 00:49:18.559
be twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old, he was he was
911
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:22.039
pretty much on on his own. Now. One thing that
912
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:24.400
is that his father did do for him that the
913
00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:29.480
actual biological father. He remembers his his father, Joe Levin's
914
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:35.079
telling him that dead men tell no tales, and so
915
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:37.880
Tommy claims that some of the things that he did
916
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:40.880
was to make sure that there were no witnesses uh
917
00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:43.519
to his actions. One of the other things that Tommy did,
918
00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:47.079
which was really shocking to a lot of people, is
919
00:49:47.079 --> 00:49:50.360
that he's reported to have crawled in the bed naked
920
00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:56.239
with his grandmother when he was thirteen years old, and
921
00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:59.039
he is alleged to have tried to rape his own mother.
922
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:03.760
And at that point he did undergo some kind of
923
00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:06.599
mental examination. But by the time he got to be
924
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:09.840
about fourteen fifteen years old, Tommy was pretty much on
925
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:12.000
his own. Like I said, he didn't run away because
926
00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:15.159
nobody cared about him. So he went out on his own.
927
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:20.719
And he reports that he was hot trains, steal and
928
00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:21.920
do whatever he had to do.
929
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:24.239
To survive, become that drifter that they talk about.
930
00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:28.360
That's when he reports to have become the drifter.
931
00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:33.559
Larry when you're folks like I know, folks like Tommy.
932
00:50:33.639 --> 00:50:36.480
I know those folks that have never really had a
933
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:40.559
life that you and I would recognize as a life.
934
00:50:41.320 --> 00:50:44.239
There's been nobody all of their lives. They have been
935
00:50:44.280 --> 00:50:52.920
no purpose, they have no friends, they have not had
936
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:57.960
any pleasurable moments. It's been a struggle from meal to meal,
937
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:02.400
from dry place to sleep to dry place to sleep,
938
00:51:02.480 --> 00:51:06.480
and those dry places frequently include the bugs of the
939
00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:08.320
night and the heat and the cold.
940
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:08.920
Uh.
941
00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:16.760
How would Tommy have ever developed a feeling that his
942
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:18.280
life had any value?
943
00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:21.880
Well, ray, despite all of those things that he was
944
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:24.639
deprived of. It's my understanding we discussed this earlier that
945
00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:27.639
the greatest human need is the need to feel like
946
00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:31.119
he's somebody. So, even even if you are, if you
947
00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:33.800
don't have a whole lot, even if you're struggling for
948
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:36.400
meal to meal, place to place, if there's someone who
949
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.719
values you, because a lot of time families don't have
950
00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:43.320
a lot, but if they have each other, that's that's
951
00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:48.679
about all they need. Tommy apparently seems to have never
952
00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:54.159
had that feeling, even even being with a grown man
953
00:51:54.599 --> 00:52:01.199
who was molesting the boys, including Tommy. That may have
954
00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:03.679
made him feel like he was somebody because man did
955
00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:06.400
lavish gifts and so for an attention on him. He
956
00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:10.840
never had any any attention, no real carings.
957
00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:13.719
So the only attention that he got in his life
958
00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:16.880
was attention leading to exploitation.
959
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:21.400
Very negative attention. Absolutely, but even negative attention is better
960
00:52:21.400 --> 00:52:23.679
than no attention at all. Uh to it to a
961
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:25.679
human being, because because we do need that to survive.
962
00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:27.920
Thank you, Larry. I want to I want to bring
963
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:31.000
Jack into the conversation because Jack's can talk about chemistry
964
00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:34.440
for a while. Uh, Jim, this show is actually holding
965
00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:35.400
in together pretty good.
966
00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:37.920
Yeah, you know one other thing, Ray that you brought up,
967
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:39.760
and of course you met him.
968
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:40.400
I didn't.
969
00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:43.079
Usually a kid has a bad background. A lot of
970
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:45.239
it depends on what type of intellect they god. If
971
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:47.039
they're a little bit bran, they can kind of their
972
00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:49.960
brain kind of tells their stomach because these feelings are dangerous.
973
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:52.159
But if a little guy is a little slow and
974
00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:54.440
not very bright, they're lost. If they go through the
975
00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:58.079
background like this. I've seen a lot of people that
976
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:00.960
have had tragic backgrounds that over have overcome it. That
977
00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:04.559
they've overcome it because they're pretty bright people and usually
978
00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:07.800
somebody intervenes, and we have that idea called disassociation when
979
00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:10.440
people don't bond when they're infants, and might verywell be
980
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:11.639
that he didn't bond with his mother.
981
00:53:11.639 --> 00:53:12.599
There's a lot not to.
982
00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:16.480
Here speaking of disassociation. There's been a lot of discussion
983
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:17.320
of the chemistry.
984
00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:21.719
Jack sure, the main issue of regarding the chemistry and
985
00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:24.480
the drugs that are used in lethal injection is whether
986
00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:28.159
the condemned suffers or not, And as a subset of that,
987
00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:30.519
in order to figure that out, it makes sense that
988
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:33.440
you need to know which which drugs are used and
989
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:38.039
where they come from. A Texas judge ordered the state
990
00:53:38.119 --> 00:53:41.199
prison officials to disclose to inmates where they got their
991
00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:45.119
latest batch of lethal lethal injection drugs. The idea is
992
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:47.880
that the inmate would need to know both the drug
993
00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:52.679
being used and its manufacturer. Not surprisingly, pharmaceuticals really don't.
994
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:56.760
These drug manufacturers don't want to be publicized for making
995
00:53:56.800 --> 00:54:00.239
the lethal injection drugs. If the manufacturers are no own
996
00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:03.480
manufacturers may may have protests, there may be other legal
997
00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:08.800
legal hassles, and there's the possibility of greater scrutiny uh that.
998
00:54:08.920 --> 00:54:14.679
Notwithstanding manufacturing, several manufacturers have simply refused to sell drugs
999
00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:18.239
for executions based upon moral grounds. As a result, the
1000
00:54:18.239 --> 00:54:22.079
state has now turned to smaller compounding pharmacies to come
1001
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:25.360
up with the drugs. Compounding pharmacies will take the drugs
1002
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:28.639
and they will manufacture it in small, very small batches themselves.
1003
00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:32.840
These pharmaceuticals are less regulated, which brings up the possibility
1004
00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:35.719
that the drugs may not perform the way they're supposed to.
1005
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:41.400
And ultimately that's that's played into the cell's execution, largely
1006
00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:48.440
because if I remember correctly, the Attorney General at first said,
1007
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:52.159
all right, state prison officials, here's our opinion. We believe
1008
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:56.199
you do need to disclose the disclose the manufacturers. And
1009
00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:58.840
then the AG's office came back and said, no, you
1010
00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.440
really don't. And then a judge said, yes you do.
1011
00:55:02.199 --> 00:55:04.639
Wait a minute, and it's going back. And I may
1012
00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:07.679
be completely off base here, but if you spend the
1013
00:55:07.719 --> 00:55:13.559
taxpayers money to buy truck, somewhere there is a public
1014
00:55:13.719 --> 00:55:17.559
accessible record of where you bought the truck and how
1015
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:21.599
much you paid for it. Sure isn't there a publicly
1016
00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:24.199
accessible record where they're bought the drugs and how much
1017
00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:24.880
they paid for it.
1018
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:28.119
I don't believe there is, and and this is ultimately
1019
00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:33.599
the legal issue. The defense, the the inmates want to
1020
00:55:33.639 --> 00:55:36.639
know who the manufacturer is. And it makes good sense
1021
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:39.880
if you want, if you want to know whether these uh,
1022
00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:44.000
these drugs that are being injected into into are medically
1023
00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:48.719
are you know, medically competent or you know their medical
1024
00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:51.679
grade or not. Now, it occurred to me that there
1025
00:55:51.719 --> 00:55:54.840
may be some that a lot some people would would think, well,
1026
00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:57.800
what difference does it make. They're going to be executed anyways, Well,
1027
00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:02.960
what happens if the execution is not successful or it's
1028
00:56:03.079 --> 00:56:05.280
unsuccessful in such a way that it does in fact
1029
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:09.679
violate the Constitution in terms of causing cruel and unusual punishment.
1030
00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:12.800
We just went through an execution in Missouri where the
1031
00:56:12.840 --> 00:56:16.800
guy lay there suffering, struggling for breath for an inordinately
1032
00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:21.000
long time. Witness is in the case. And the last
1033
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:26.119
time we did an execution in Texas, they were witnesses
1034
00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:29.440
were in there an inordinately long time. This is relatively quick.
1035
00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:32.440
What is the drug we're talking about.
1036
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:37.239
It's pheno barbiton. Let me it's pheno barbital.
1037
00:56:37.039 --> 00:56:40.519
Pheno barbaradon. Why wouldn't they just give them heroin.
1038
00:56:41.920 --> 00:56:44.719
Well, not being a prison official, I don't.
1039
00:56:44.440 --> 00:56:47.679
Know, okay, but I mean I think heroin will kill
1040
00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:50.679
you in overdose. I mean, no question about it.
1041
00:56:50.840 --> 00:56:51.559
You ought to have.
1042
00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:53.960
It locked up in a very safe place.
1043
00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:54.719
Okay.
1044
00:56:56.159 --> 00:56:59.559
You would have to have your heroin steal.
1045
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:01.840
It, wardens sell it, and then they probably use it.
1046
00:57:02.079 --> 00:57:03.159
Let the wardens sell it.
1047
00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:06.880
They sell all the type of drugs they sing all
1048
00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:07.239
the time.
1049
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:09.519
Let them know they could sell the heroin under the table,
1050
00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:10.480
and they could probably do that.
1051
00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:16.000
They go down the hall, that's right, and shake down
1052
00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:17.639
a couple of people and get enough hair into the
1053
00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:21.599
next execution. That's right, Jesus, They couldn't control.
1054
00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:25.599
They'd have to have it locked under lock and key.
1055
00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:31.360
Okay, this is beginning to make sense to actually having
1056
00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:33.840
known a couple of heroin that existed, beginning to make
1057
00:57:33.960 --> 00:57:34.480
sense to me.
1058
00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:37.400
In fact, you mentioned the fact if you use it
1059
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:39.320
for drugs, some may kill just to get the last
1060
00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:41.199
shot for the state to pay for it.
1061
00:57:41.239 --> 00:57:41.719
I don't know.
1062
00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:44.880
I hold that bay or brand.
1063
00:57:46.400 --> 00:57:47.159
Nothing but the best.
1064
00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:49.719
And they wouldn't answer your question earlier. What the DC
1065
00:57:49.880 --> 00:57:51.679
did on that last match. Memories back and they got
1066
00:57:51.679 --> 00:57:54.239
it from Conrad. They lied to the pharmaceutical commany so
1067
00:57:54.239 --> 00:57:55.800
they were going to use it to treat somebody in
1068
00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:58.440
the hospital, and then when the pharmacy could see the
1069
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:01.880
problem the medical fashions farmers are part of. It is
1070
00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:06.559
designed to save people's lives. A real ethical problem if
1071
00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:08.199
your job is to save folks and all of a
1072
00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:10.840
sudden you're selling stuff to kill them, the real ethical
1073
00:58:10.840 --> 00:58:12.079
problem with the medical profession.
1074
00:58:12.239 --> 00:58:16.719
The American Medical Association has stated that whether or not
1075
00:58:17.480 --> 00:58:21.719
physicians assist in executions or not is a personal choice,
1076
00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:25.159
and that the AMA is not going to get involved.
1077
00:58:26.159 --> 00:58:28.639
I think one of the issues that when I was
1078
00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:33.159
thinking about this issue of why it matters, what what
1079
00:58:33.239 --> 00:58:36.760
drugs we use, what for the lethal injection, and what
1080
00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:41.760
and why that's important, why it matters, I was reminded
1081
00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:46.599
of the reign of terror in France under Robespierre, where
1082
00:58:46.639 --> 00:58:49.599
they executed so many people in the with the guillotine
1083
00:58:50.239 --> 00:58:54.760
that the blade became so dull that very few people
1084
00:58:54.760 --> 00:58:57.960
it didn't work, very few people made you know, were
1085
00:58:57.960 --> 00:59:02.039
actually executed on the first chop several times. They several people,
1086
00:59:02.159 --> 00:59:04.039
you know, towards the end, a lot of people had
1087
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:06.920
to be you know, had to go through several several
1088
00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:10.320
chops before they were actually executed.
1089
00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:11.119
It's terrible.
1090
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:13.800
I mean you look at Louis the sixteenth. He was
1091
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:17.519
so large that the blade simply could not fit through
1092
00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:20.760
his neck on the first chop, and he went through
1093
00:59:20.840 --> 00:59:23.880
several times before his uh before he was actually executed.
1094
00:59:24.679 --> 00:59:27.920
And this is really the the crux of the issue
1095
00:59:27.960 --> 00:59:32.760
behind the why the drug man, why the inmates want
1096
00:59:33.039 --> 00:59:37.679
the drug manufacturer's names disclosed that they need they need
1097
00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:40.599
this information to figure out if it violates the constitutional
1098
00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:45.360
right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment.
1099
00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:48.920
Well, yes, we owe a debt of gratitude to Tommy
1100
00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:52.079
Sales for giving us an opportunity to talk about things
1101
00:59:52.519 --> 00:59:55.199
on this show that we don't normally get around to
1102
00:59:55.239 --> 01:00:00.480
talking to. We certainly are exposed to a person whose
1103
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:04.599
personality is very different from any that most of you
1104
01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:09.039
will encounter. But I want to assure you, having lived
1105
01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:17.079
in prison, that there are Tommy sALS down there. And
1106
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:21.599
there is a problem. If you've been nobody all of
1107
01:00:21.639 --> 01:00:25.159
your life and of no consequence to anybody, and nobody's
1108
01:00:25.159 --> 01:00:27.199
ever cared about you, and you wind up in Texas
1109
01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:33.039
prison and you're given responsibilities by the authorities, so that
1110
01:00:33.199 --> 01:00:38.199
while in prison you become somebody. Richard, it is very
1111
01:00:38.199 --> 01:00:42.239
difficult to it's very difficult to get out of that.
1112
01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:44.800
Richard is back on line. Could you put him on
1113
01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:47.480
the air, Richard.
1114
01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:47.679
Yes, sir.
1115
01:00:48.679 --> 01:00:51.320
The witnesses came out. What about the middle of the hour.
1116
01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:56.639
The first group of witnesses came out at six point
1117
01:00:56.639 --> 01:01:00.079
thirty two, the lawyers about five minutes later, and the
1118
01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:03.320
state witnesses about five minutes after that.
1119
01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:10.840
Okay, So obviously the execution was over travel distance from
1120
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:16.199
death row to the front gate at six point thirty. Yes,
1121
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:21.440
so this went a lot quicker than the one last week. Yes, sir,
1122
01:01:21.599 --> 01:01:26.159
and I appreciate your by the way, Richard Owes Harley
1123
01:01:26.239 --> 01:01:30.599
Davidson the transportation ability to get the Huntsville and cover
1124
01:01:30.719 --> 01:01:33.559
this far as Thank you Richard for doing that. Not
1125
01:01:33.639 --> 01:01:39.039
a problem, sir. Enjoy your ride home later. Bye. And
1126
01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:41.199
so now he's got to straddle that hardy. I hope
1127
01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:42.760
he carried his rain suit.
1128
01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:43.880
Well.
1129
01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:46.880
Ray, I would say this, if you know, for people
1130
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:50.800
who may feel like they're nobody and nothing to anybody,
1131
01:01:51.480 --> 01:01:53.679
I would point this out that you can make your
1132
01:01:53.679 --> 01:01:56.599
own karma if you do good things for people and
1133
01:01:56.679 --> 01:02:00.559
care about people and help people out, then you're going
1134
01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:01.800
to be somebody to them.
1135
01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:06.119
Susan. The trouble with sending messages to people that need
1136
01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:08.679
to receive those messages, we don't have a very effective
1137
01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:12.119
mechanism for doing That's true. Somebody should have told Tommy
1138
01:02:12.199 --> 01:02:15.199
Sales that when he was about thirteen years old and
1139
01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:19.440
giving him few guidelines how to build that karma. The
1140
01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:23.880
karma he built was destined. I don't. I think I
1141
01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:27.360
agree with Larry. This guy died the day he was born,
1142
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:32.239
and I will It'll be a long time before I
1143
01:02:32.239 --> 01:02:35.760
get Tommy Sales. You're listening to execution Watch on radio
1144
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:39.719
station KPFT in Houston. If you want to see this show,
1145
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:42.519
those of us in the studio, as well as an
1146
01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:49.800
extended interview with Tommy Sales, stay tuned at execution watch
1147
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:53.639
the Facebook page and we will figure out somebody to
1148
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:57.480
put a notice of it also on the web page,
1149
01:02:58.159 --> 01:03:01.840
and ultimately both this audio of this show and the
1150
01:03:01.960 --> 01:03:07.159
video will be posted on executionwatch dot org. My name
1151
01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:11.280
is Ray Hill. I want to thank Jim Skelton, Susan Ashley,
1152
01:03:12.199 --> 01:03:17.559
Mike Gillespie and Jack Lee for their fine work on
1153
01:03:18.280 --> 01:03:20.679
this research and getting ready for this case. I want
1154
01:03:20.679 --> 01:03:24.880
to think, of course, Elizabeth Stein, producer, without whom we
1155
01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:28.000
couldn't work a lot more of the Wizardry as we
1156
01:03:28.119 --> 01:03:31.800
developed that. The credit goes to Otis Maclay, who is
1157
01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:36.079
handling cameras tonight and we appreciate, and of course Mark
1158
01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:38.519
pertl plays a role in all that. I want to
1159
01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:41.440
thank KPFT for giving us the opportunity of providing us
1160
01:03:41.440 --> 01:03:45.280
with our board operator for tonight's show. I also want
1161
01:03:45.320 --> 01:03:49.800
to thank Victoria Panetti for playing did I.
1162
01:03:49.800 --> 01:03:51.199
Leave Larry out?
1163
01:03:51.239 --> 01:03:53.000
Oh my god, I'm gott to leave the voice of
1164
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:56.880
God himself Larry, and I'm here. I just voted his
1165
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:00.559
wisdom he brought to the table tonight that so listen
1166
01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:06.719
quote I never forget these shows. H I hope you
1167
01:04:06.840 --> 01:04:10.920
will view them and listen to them, and remember we
1168
01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:17.000
owe it as citizens in a state that ritually killed
1169
01:04:17.159 --> 01:04:19.159
people in our name.