Speaker 2: Welcome to Her Life, Fully Lived with Anja Hertkon. This is a space for women who feel called to love deeply, consciously, and ⁓ My name is Anja Hertkon. I'm an energy therapist and relationship expert. And in this space, we come back into our heart, our truth, ⁓ our capacity to love. I'm so glad that you are here. In today's episode, we are opening a beautiful and honest conversation about relationships, especially ⁓ How men experience love, connection, and emotional intimacy. So I'm very happy to introduce you today to my guest, Bruce Graham. Bruce Graham is a relationship coach. He has been working with women, but he is also ⁓ interested in working more with men now. Welcome, Bruce. I'm so glad that you are here.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Anna. Thank you for inviting me and I'm happy to be here too.
Speaker 2: And before we go deeper into men's and women's dynamics in relationships, I would love for my listeners to get to know you a little bit more as a person. So everyone who works in this field has their own story and often it's a very personal one. So I'd love to start with this question, what made you become a relationship coach?
Speaker 1: Thank you. So I'm gonna synapsize it a little bit. ⁓ you know, I grew up a typical boy. You start out, all children, boys and girls, we started totally dependent. We want to become independent. And in my growth for independence, there came the point where I was noticing girls. Frankly, you know, the idea was to win them over. You know, I don't know if it was being on the hunt or something, but ⁓ initially it was to be the best academic student, to be the best in math and reading. You know, and look for the girl who's the best method of, you know, like look for your equal. And then ⁓ as you're playing competitive sports, ⁓ wanting to be kind of the star athlete, ⁓ because you think that's how you're attracting this girl's attention later. Yeah, yeah. You know, and early on I was able to do that. but in the development of relationships, you realize that there's something more, you know, that I dated girls who were beautiful and I remember going to a movie with one asking her what she thought about the movie and she said, Well, what do you think? She wouldn't give me her opinion. I was like, All right, I'm not going out with her again because there's something there that isn't entertaining, you know, that there's no validation, there's no communication, blah, blah, blah. But Eventually I got married for a first time and it was the camp nurse. ⁓ I felt like I won her. She had beautiful legs, she wear short voice shorts and stuff. And anytime a ⁓ camper got sick or injured, I told the counselor that I will take that child to the infirmary. And then we got very connected. And so it was like winning her over. And after the camp, she had finished her. Nurses training, she asked me to move in with her. I was going to a commuter college. I was like, Yeah, I'll I'll move in with you. So I I really felt like I'd won something. Ten years later, we realized we didn't share that much. She was a nurse, she worked ⁓ rotating schedules. I was in the financial industry. I was working hard to to be the best stockbroker I could be. And so we were like off in ships, two ships passing in the night. And one day I came home, the house was dark, the dog wasn't barking, and there was a note on the dining room table saying that she left. And I sobbed a while and I kept thinking, I'm not that bad. I'm not that bad. What was missing? ⁓ very quickly I left the financial services industry. I went to get a master's degree in counseling, figuring out, I want to figure out people. know so i want to figure out myself i want to figure out women i want to figure out you know how can we make things work and eventually i met and married another woman ⁓ again with no idea of long term what are my vision what's my goals what are my values i didn't ask and i didn't ask her and i knew that i wanted a child didn't have children ⁓ she wanted a child she was turning 30 i was 37 we both wanted a child We got married, we had a child, and we didn't really fit. So we got divorced. And I remember the moment I was taking my son home, but by this time he's three years old, I have him in the back seat and I'm telling him that daddy's not gonna be here when you wake up the next morning. And all I heard was sobbing. So I pulled off to the side of the road, I took him out of his child, and I'm you know, hugging him and I'm thinking, you know what? I was a jerk, you know, that I didn't get married with the idea that I'm gonna be with the mother forever. And yet my son sobbing was like, I felt like the biggest fool. You know, I brought this little boy and I love this boy. ⁓ so all of a sudden that commitment, that relationship commitment had such gravitas that for me it hadn't had. And I became committed that anybody, if I could help them enhance their relationship. ⁓ and by this time I was working as a private detective. I had people ask me to do surveillances. I would begin to interview them. Is this what you really want? And I was able to, with three different couples, do some couples counseling. And I'm so proud, one's 12 years together, one's 17, one 20 years still together. And then when I left investigations two years ago, you know, I was retired, I wanted to become a relationship coach because I want people to be happy. I want singles to be choosing well for the future. And I want couples to learn how to reconnect if there's some difficulties.
Speaker 2: Wonderful. So this is also in your experience the most important ⁓ thing to find common values, right? So that we are on the same wavelength, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yanya. Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, you ask somebody, who are you? And they look at you like, well, you know who I am. It's like, you know, no, who really are you? Yeah. What do you value? You know, I know what your profession is. What do you value? Yeah. Where do you want to live? Why? What is it about that? You know, what do you want for your family? What about your friends? So who are you? And that's when I work with my clients, where we do start with an assessment, who are you? And People take the assessment and they're amazed. They find out things about them that they never thought of.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so important. Wonderful. So what do you feel women often misunderstand about men in relationships?
Speaker 1: I think and and you and I have spoken about this that men need to be listened to. Yeah. Now women might feel like they're really listening to men all the time and they don't want to listen to them anymore. But the men are not telling you what's in the heart. Yeah. You know, and I can't tell you how many times, even before becoming a relationship coach, I've had buddies who will tell me, you know, I can't tell my wife what I tell you. You know, I just can't. She just listened to me. Yeah. I have one friend married 50 years and he loves his wife, but success or failure, he can't talk with her. Yeah. She's just not interested. No. Or at least that's the signs he gets. ⁓ I keep suggesting things to him and he'll try them and then they seem to work, but he doesn't believe that that's going to carry over or that he can do it without you know periodic hints from me.
Speaker 2: So this is a pattern that you see repeating all the time, that people don't communicate first their values and their needs and ⁓ not listening to each other?
Speaker 1: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. It's amazing when people really get into a heart heart conversation and what they hear and they fall back in love. It's just really amazing. So it's kind of the work you do, the work I do is how do we get people being willing to be vulnerable, to open their heart and trust that something's going to come out of it because initially it's not going to be what you want to hear. Yeah. You know, we each have a way of communicating. And if you're listening to, ⁓ She didn't say the right thing or he didn't say the right thing, be aware, it's not gonna come in as exactly as you wanted, but be patient, just be patient.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So what need men in order to feel safe and to open their hearts? Is is it to be listened to or what is it?
Speaker 1: Yeah. They listen to and that she knows what he values. Yeah. You know, I took a business writing course one time and they opened up with ⁓ a complaint letter from a customer. And how do you respond to that? It was a weekend course, and so we're all writing, and you know, this brilliant woman, you know, says, ⁓ yeah, that's good. You're getting better, getting better. And she goes, Okay, now on Sunday, she said, I'm gonna give you the keys to the kingdom. And she says, The formula is tell them what they know. People want to know that you heard them. Tell them what they want to know. People want to know that they were understood. And then tell them what they need to know. Same thing with men. Tell us what we just said. Tell us what we want to hear. And then tell us what we need to hear. 'Cause by now you've captured our attention.
Speaker 2: Fantastic. Beautiful. So what actually supports a man to grow emotionally within the relationship?
Speaker 1: Interesting, interesting question. I love it. I think if we could look at each other like yes, this is an adult woman, yes, this is an adult man, but really you've heard this before. We're all children in adult bodies, we're big bodies. If you could reach back in your own head and look at who is this little boy, and hopefully he's then gonna be able to look back and say, who's this little girl? It's like, but who is this little boy? Years ago when I was in graduate school, I read this wonderful article. It was called The Dehumanization of American Male, and it's not just American. It's when boys and girls are hurt when they're little, they cry. We all cry, babies cry. Around seven, eight, nine. When a boy is hurt, he's disappointed, he's physically hurt, you're told, Don't be a baby, don't be a girl. So you're not allowed. Socially decline.
Speaker 2: To cry, yeah, to express. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if you as a woman could see when a man is getting angry, it's that little boy inside who's hurt but isn't allowed to express it authentically. You know, be patient and I don't know what you could do, but steady yourself and be patient with him and and really, you know, do the thing with three steps. You know, here's what he knows, here's what he wants to know. And then here's what he needs to know. So if you can look at him as a little boy just hurt, you're gonna get to authenticity with him. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Okay, so before we close I'd love to ask you one final hard question. What has love taught you about yourself that you didn't know before?
Speaker 1: Such a good question, Anna. You know, for me, it's early on. I thought when we're contesting wills, you know, she's saying this, I'm saying this. Again, the old dependence to independence, the height of maturation is interdependence. And with a couple, it's relationship. So I don't want to win at your expense. I don't want you to win at my expense. I want us to identify what's important to each of us and then what can we come to that will protect the relationship? And that for me is the height of winning. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Bruce. That was so interesting. So, ⁓ you prepared a little gift for us, for my listeners?
Speaker 1: Yes. I have a pamphlet that I love. It's called The Seven Steps to Attract A Partner Who Matches Yashion, Purpose, and Power. Wow. And it's really written specifically for women because I've dealt with women who are very successful. And yet to be in a relationship, they feel like they have to minimize themselves so that the man is okay, somehow give of themselves. And it's like, no, what you want is A man who really is your match. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, beautiful. So I encourage everyone who is listening to this episode to ⁓ download the gift from Bruce. It's a wonderful gift and it will support you on your own healing and relationship journey. And if this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to stay connected and join me for the next episode where we will go even deeper into conscious love, emotional healing. and creating relationships that truly nourish your heart. Until then, take good care of yourself and remember you are allowed to be free to love.
Speaker 1: How beautiful.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Anna. Thank you for inviting me and I'm happy to be here too.
Speaker 2: And before we go deeper into men's and women's dynamics in relationships, I would love for my listeners to get to know you a little bit more as a person. So everyone who works in this field has their own story and often it's a very personal one. So I'd love to start with this question, what made you become a relationship coach?
Speaker 1: Thank you. So I'm gonna synapsize it a little bit. ⁓ you know, I grew up a typical boy. You start out, all children, boys and girls, we started totally dependent. We want to become independent. And in my growth for independence, there came the point where I was noticing girls. Frankly, you know, the idea was to win them over. You know, I don't know if it was being on the hunt or something, but ⁓ initially it was to be the best academic student, to be the best in math and reading. You know, and look for the girl who's the best method of, you know, like look for your equal. And then ⁓ as you're playing competitive sports, ⁓ wanting to be kind of the star athlete, ⁓ because you think that's how you're attracting this girl's attention later. Yeah, yeah. You know, and early on I was able to do that. but in the development of relationships, you realize that there's something more, you know, that I dated girls who were beautiful and I remember going to a movie with one asking her what she thought about the movie and she said, Well, what do you think? She wouldn't give me her opinion. I was like, All right, I'm not going out with her again because there's something there that isn't entertaining, you know, that there's no validation, there's no communication, blah, blah, blah. But Eventually I got married for a first time and it was the camp nurse. ⁓ I felt like I won her. She had beautiful legs, she wear short voice shorts and stuff. And anytime a ⁓ camper got sick or injured, I told the counselor that I will take that child to the infirmary. And then we got very connected. And so it was like winning her over. And after the camp, she had finished her. Nurses training, she asked me to move in with her. I was going to a commuter college. I was like, Yeah, I'll I'll move in with you. So I I really felt like I'd won something. Ten years later, we realized we didn't share that much. She was a nurse, she worked ⁓ rotating schedules. I was in the financial industry. I was working hard to to be the best stockbroker I could be. And so we were like off in ships, two ships passing in the night. And one day I came home, the house was dark, the dog wasn't barking, and there was a note on the dining room table saying that she left. And I sobbed a while and I kept thinking, I'm not that bad. I'm not that bad. What was missing? ⁓ very quickly I left the financial services industry. I went to get a master's degree in counseling, figuring out, I want to figure out people. know so i want to figure out myself i want to figure out women i want to figure out you know how can we make things work and eventually i met and married another woman ⁓ again with no idea of long term what are my vision what's my goals what are my values i didn't ask and i didn't ask her and i knew that i wanted a child didn't have children ⁓ she wanted a child she was turning 30 i was 37 we both wanted a child We got married, we had a child, and we didn't really fit. So we got divorced. And I remember the moment I was taking my son home, but by this time he's three years old, I have him in the back seat and I'm telling him that daddy's not gonna be here when you wake up the next morning. And all I heard was sobbing. So I pulled off to the side of the road, I took him out of his child, and I'm you know, hugging him and I'm thinking, you know what? I was a jerk, you know, that I didn't get married with the idea that I'm gonna be with the mother forever. And yet my son sobbing was like, I felt like the biggest fool. You know, I brought this little boy and I love this boy. ⁓ so all of a sudden that commitment, that relationship commitment had such gravitas that for me it hadn't had. And I became committed that anybody, if I could help them enhance their relationship. ⁓ and by this time I was working as a private detective. I had people ask me to do surveillances. I would begin to interview them. Is this what you really want? And I was able to, with three different couples, do some couples counseling. And I'm so proud, one's 12 years together, one's 17, one 20 years still together. And then when I left investigations two years ago, you know, I was retired, I wanted to become a relationship coach because I want people to be happy. I want singles to be choosing well for the future. And I want couples to learn how to reconnect if there's some difficulties.
Speaker 2: Wonderful. So this is also in your experience the most important ⁓ thing to find common values, right? So that we are on the same wavelength, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yanya. Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, you ask somebody, who are you? And they look at you like, well, you know who I am. It's like, you know, no, who really are you? Yeah. What do you value? You know, I know what your profession is. What do you value? Yeah. Where do you want to live? Why? What is it about that? You know, what do you want for your family? What about your friends? So who are you? And that's when I work with my clients, where we do start with an assessment, who are you? And People take the assessment and they're amazed. They find out things about them that they never thought of.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so important. Wonderful. So what do you feel women often misunderstand about men in relationships?
Speaker 1: I think and and you and I have spoken about this that men need to be listened to. Yeah. Now women might feel like they're really listening to men all the time and they don't want to listen to them anymore. But the men are not telling you what's in the heart. Yeah. You know, and I can't tell you how many times, even before becoming a relationship coach, I've had buddies who will tell me, you know, I can't tell my wife what I tell you. You know, I just can't. She just listened to me. Yeah. I have one friend married 50 years and he loves his wife, but success or failure, he can't talk with her. Yeah. She's just not interested. No. Or at least that's the signs he gets. ⁓ I keep suggesting things to him and he'll try them and then they seem to work, but he doesn't believe that that's going to carry over or that he can do it without you know periodic hints from me.
Speaker 2: So this is a pattern that you see repeating all the time, that people don't communicate first their values and their needs and ⁓ not listening to each other?
Speaker 1: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. It's amazing when people really get into a heart heart conversation and what they hear and they fall back in love. It's just really amazing. So it's kind of the work you do, the work I do is how do we get people being willing to be vulnerable, to open their heart and trust that something's going to come out of it because initially it's not going to be what you want to hear. Yeah. You know, we each have a way of communicating. And if you're listening to, ⁓ She didn't say the right thing or he didn't say the right thing, be aware, it's not gonna come in as exactly as you wanted, but be patient, just be patient.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So what need men in order to feel safe and to open their hearts? Is is it to be listened to or what is it?
Speaker 1: Yeah. They listen to and that she knows what he values. Yeah. You know, I took a business writing course one time and they opened up with ⁓ a complaint letter from a customer. And how do you respond to that? It was a weekend course, and so we're all writing, and you know, this brilliant woman, you know, says, ⁓ yeah, that's good. You're getting better, getting better. And she goes, Okay, now on Sunday, she said, I'm gonna give you the keys to the kingdom. And she says, The formula is tell them what they know. People want to know that you heard them. Tell them what they want to know. People want to know that they were understood. And then tell them what they need to know. Same thing with men. Tell us what we just said. Tell us what we want to hear. And then tell us what we need to hear. 'Cause by now you've captured our attention.
Speaker 2: Fantastic. Beautiful. So what actually supports a man to grow emotionally within the relationship?
Speaker 1: Interesting, interesting question. I love it. I think if we could look at each other like yes, this is an adult woman, yes, this is an adult man, but really you've heard this before. We're all children in adult bodies, we're big bodies. If you could reach back in your own head and look at who is this little boy, and hopefully he's then gonna be able to look back and say, who's this little girl? It's like, but who is this little boy? Years ago when I was in graduate school, I read this wonderful article. It was called The Dehumanization of American Male, and it's not just American. It's when boys and girls are hurt when they're little, they cry. We all cry, babies cry. Around seven, eight, nine. When a boy is hurt, he's disappointed, he's physically hurt, you're told, Don't be a baby, don't be a girl. So you're not allowed. Socially decline.
Speaker 2: To cry, yeah, to express. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if you as a woman could see when a man is getting angry, it's that little boy inside who's hurt but isn't allowed to express it authentically. You know, be patient and I don't know what you could do, but steady yourself and be patient with him and and really, you know, do the thing with three steps. You know, here's what he knows, here's what he wants to know. And then here's what he needs to know. So if you can look at him as a little boy just hurt, you're gonna get to authenticity with him. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Okay, so before we close I'd love to ask you one final hard question. What has love taught you about yourself that you didn't know before?
Speaker 1: Such a good question, Anna. You know, for me, it's early on. I thought when we're contesting wills, you know, she's saying this, I'm saying this. Again, the old dependence to independence, the height of maturation is interdependence. And with a couple, it's relationship. So I don't want to win at your expense. I don't want you to win at my expense. I want us to identify what's important to each of us and then what can we come to that will protect the relationship? And that for me is the height of winning. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Bruce. That was so interesting. So, ⁓ you prepared a little gift for us, for my listeners?
Speaker 1: Yes. I have a pamphlet that I love. It's called The Seven Steps to Attract A Partner Who Matches Yashion, Purpose, and Power. Wow. And it's really written specifically for women because I've dealt with women who are very successful. And yet to be in a relationship, they feel like they have to minimize themselves so that the man is okay, somehow give of themselves. And it's like, no, what you want is A man who really is your match. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, beautiful. So I encourage everyone who is listening to this episode to ⁓ download the gift from Bruce. It's a wonderful gift and it will support you on your own healing and relationship journey. And if this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to stay connected and join me for the next episode where we will go even deeper into conscious love, emotional healing. and creating relationships that truly nourish your heart. Until then, take good care of yourself and remember you are allowed to be free to love.
Speaker 1: How beautiful.
