speaker-0: If you want to be a wrestler, try and make yourself in it.
speaker-1: what was your opening track?
speaker-0: I picked a very sort of regal sounding sort of classical track, for money because I I kind of decked her out with a top hat and all of this fancy outfit and I was called like the TNATA so I was sort of like yeah, I did a really stupid thing, so
speaker-1: Welcome back, everyone. Here we are with another episode of Girls. And today it's myself, Heather, and Rosalie talking about character creation, the good, the bad, and probably the ugly two. but let's start off with I'm gonna start with the positive this time because I feel like we always start with the negatives, and there are some really good character creations out there that are very good at representation. So, Heather, what's what will be the one that you recommend or has stuck with you through your years of gaming?
speaker-0: there's quite a few actually that that s that stick out to me. I think as a as an avid RPG player, they've definitely gotten better over the years. and interestingly the one of the ones that always sti comes to mind is Dragon's Dogma Two, which I really wasn't expecting to be as good. I'd never touched the first game, so I had no knowledge of the series at all. but going into it, I was just kind of blown away by how many different sliders there were, different like body types that you can really adjust everything. So I could give my main character like chunky thighs. And I was like, I could make myself if I want to, which is such a rarity, especially in in RPGs, it feels like there's always sort of lots of carbon copy kind of body types and it kind of stuck in it. You don't always get to adjust it.
speaker-1: I feel like you get like short and squat, tall and lanky, and that's basically it.
speaker-0: Yeah. There's no kind of middle ground sort of curvaceous people, you know, it's always sort of
speaker-1: How dare you want to be tall and tall and bigger?
speaker-0: Exactly. and I, you know, I've kind of been blown away by how many people have created like other characters within that character suite. So it just goes to show like how good it is that you can like kind of make anyone that you want. I can give more examples.
speaker-1: Go on, you go in.
speaker-0: I could last year I really, really got into WWE, which was surprise myself and lots of people that kind of know me.
speaker-1: It was so unlike you to WW but I kind of love the fact you've just embraced it.
speaker-0: Done it so much. And you know, I started getting into the fantasy of like if I could be a WWE wrestler, what would I do? What would my entrance be? What would my outfit be? And so I got WWE 2K25 to try and do that basically. And I was honestly surprised by how good the character creation suite is in that as well. obviously, you have all of your muscly body types in there, but there's actually like softer body types as well, you can adjust. the th like different things in it so that you really can, if you want to be a wrestler, try and make yourself in it.
speaker-1: what was your opening track?
speaker-0: I picked a very sort of regal sounding sort of classical track for Molly because I I kind of decked her out with a top hat and all of this fancy outfit and I was called like the TNATA. So I was sort of like, yeah, I did a really stupid thing. So but yeah, it's there's so many options in that that I was I was quite surprised by it. But obviously I don't really have too much knowledge of that game series, but I was genuinely quite impressed by that.
speaker-1: It's not the a game that would come to mind when you say like character creation, really. Like i I just assumed you'd be playing one of the various wrestlers there are in the world.
speaker-0: Yeah. They definitely let you sort of live in that fantasy. and I mean, I can keep do you want me to keep going?
speaker-1: Give me one more and then it's first was time.
speaker-0: Okay. Okay. I I do have to I mean, as a massive Bioware fan, it comes as no surprise I have to talk about Dragon Age. I do have to say the earlier Dragon Age games aren't that great for character creation. But Dragon Age the Veilguard, despite some of its you know, story thing, you know, whatever, it's such a fantastic character creation suite for an RPG. there Before you could only have set body types, it was all tied to the different fantasy races that you could play as. In the Veil Guard, you can really tweak it. You can change their height, their figure, their legs, their arms, all of it, so that it really feels like, you know, you can create the kind of character that you want to be. and then they even sort of go even further than that by sort of reflecting it, some of the role play options that you can choose later on. So you get this little mirror from Varric and you can kind of pick your gender identity. You can talk about your scars, the tattoos that you have. So it's really trying to be a reflection of who are who you want to be in the game. And you know, I I'd love to see more RPGs do that for sure.
speaker-1: How about you, Rosalie?
speaker-2: just thinking it's really funny that you mentioned like wrestling games because I grew up on no mercy on the N64 and I used to mate myself in it and then you could like choose your an item that you walked into the ring with. So I was like, I'm Rosalie, so I'll have roses and you could have like the rock or Kane like come with you into the thing. And I was like obsessed with the rock. So I was like he's my boyfriend now. And like it was it was very cringe but I loved it so much. I was also gonna say Dragon's Dogma 2 only because I was really surprised at how good it was. my cause you can make your like companion character and my fiance made me and it's the first time I have ever seen someone actually get my likeness in a game before and it was really bizarre, but it was like it's like, thank you for like popping me in there as your companion. but like all the freckles and like the kind of it was just it was it's pretty, pretty groovy. my other favorite is Disney's Dreamlight Valley. It's a kind of their I don't want to say Animal Crossing light because it's not really that, but it surprised me. It's not the it's not the greatest character creation in the world, but what I really liked is that you can change your body type and they're not gendered. There's just like a muscular one, there's like a slightly curvier one. and it's just on a in a game that's very much leaning into the nostalgia and the you're a millennial and you're hanging out with Disney characters. It's cool to be see like an actual plus size me running about and hanging out with Hades and Fairy Godmother and a random assortment of Disney characters. but they also have like loads of different skin types and things as well, which I've not I don't see that often, though you know you should see that often. and it has you can pick right from the get go, you can have turbines and things and I was just like, That's really cool. I but yeah, Disney Disney surprised me with that one. Or is it Game Loft, I should say, 'cause they're developers, but yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think I th and and that's part of it, right? Is like trying trying to get the different not only like visual styles, but like getting the like kind of religious element into there because obviously it's hugely important to a lot of a lot of gamers and giving people options to like feel truly reflective just does seem like it is still there is always still something that kind of holds a game back. Like the ones that I were gonna suggest was I've I've talked about it on previous episodes with Cyberpunk twenty seventy-seven. feels very kind of like you can, you know, choose how you want to be referred to in terms of pronouns and then everything else is just kind of like sliders and like I was like, I might choose to have boobs and a penis or like and just kind of make make it feel like the real the real choice is down to you and how you want to be reflective. So that for me seems like the kind of pinnacle and obviously it's still got issues in terms of like representation, but it feels like the most kind of biologically playful in a way is just to kind of be like, okay, I can can be different and how I feel reflected in in whatever kind of version of yourself you see. and then the Sims obviously for me is just like it's been a it's been a backbone of my entire gaming career. But it just keeps getting better and better. And I hope that doesn't change now that the ownership is where it is. But like the fact that you can have like stretch marks and like cellulite and and things that are like ultimately very, very human and maybe not desirable, but like they are part they are part of being a human, not just a not just a woman. So like and like I love the fact that we were laughing on last week on Lost Team podcast that that there's that meme going around on TikTok about like the hairstyles that you can pick and gaze. And it's like five different ponytails, for example. It's like at least in The Sims there's like 50 plus different hairstyles that you actually feel like some of them are quite aspirational. I'm like, I actually quite like that. Maybe I'll try and do that later with like my short Bob hairstyle. But yeah, I think for me, like those those two are the ones that kind of stand out. And I I completely forgot about Dragon Dragon's Dogma 2 having a really good character creation. I spent freaking ages in that, especially because I now I can make a companion. I've only been here for days. And I'm shocked you haven't said Baldur's Gate 3, Heather.
speaker-0: Yeah, Baldur's Gate 3 is kind of I would actually say it's actually quite limited. it's I mean, there's so many choices in terms of classes, races, all of that stuff. And there's some fantastic features in it, but they're all kind of very set figures, very set faces. You can't tweak too much. There's at least different skin colors and and things like that.
speaker-1: They're quite limited within the kind of club, aren't they?
speaker-0: Yeah. So I mean, thank goodness for mods because I've I've put in so many more faces in it for for from the mods and hair as well. So much hair. So yeah, the mods mod community have done a great job there as well. But yeah, I guess it was sort of they just there's so many choices in that that maybe they had to sort of limit it in some way. Yeah.
speaker-1: I've got to stop somewhere. 10,000 million whatever dialogue choices just like, well, maybe we just keep the character creation a little bit more simple. Yeah. Like what is important to you guys in terms of character creation? Like, is it being able to like make make a you? Or is it just having the kind of diverse suite of options so you can create something that's a little bit more fantastical? Or like, how do you kind of approach character creation? Go on, Heather.
speaker-0: kind of
speaker-2: So I'm kind of
speaker-0: it I'm very dependent on the genre that I'm playing. but for the most part when it comes to like farming Sims, like so there's two exceptions where I'll make try and make myself in games, which is sort of Pokemon or Animal Crossing, because I desperately want to be in those games myself. So I'm like I I won't make myself, I will call the character Heather and everything. But then when I'm playing any other kind of RPG, I want to make my own sort of fantastical character that's way cooler than I am, but I still think I do channel parts of myself in it because I think you just do. and I think it's so important to have as many options as possible, even if you are making a fantasy character, because it's all about putting yourself in a role that you want to be in. Then it's also so important in terms of making you feel scene, like the smallest s you know, the smallest options can mean so much to someone out there. You know, I think about like prosthetics and pronouns and stuff in in Forza Horizon, for example. Small things like that can mean so much to someone out there who has maybe not seen themselves reflected in media enough and suddenly you have this option. And yeah, you can kind of put yourself in a game that you love. It's it's so important. So even though I'm a bit of an anomaly in the sense that I much prefer to kind of make my own fantasy characters, or I wouldn't say anomaly, but you know, I I love playing RPGs where I can kind of create my own OCs and stuff like that. But I do also want to have just as many options as possible so that if I wanted to make myself I could. And I think, you know, again, going back to Dragon's Dogma, the fact that you really can just like kind of make your own fantasies come true, whether it's making a partner or making your like idealized fictional character that you want to carry like journey around with, you know, that's the best of the best, really, isn't it?
speaker-1: And it's really interesting you mentioned about Falls Horizon 'cause I remember playing it and being like, I was so surprised that when they had like pus prosthetics in there 'cause just like again, the game where really your player character doesn't really that matter that much. It's more about the cars that you're driving and stuff. It's just like it's just just taking that moment to pause and be like, This this is you in the game if you want it to be, just feels I'm always taken aback, being like, my god, like that's so cool. And like it Yeah. It's twenty twenty six. You shouldn't feel like that with every character creation that like surprises you by having actual human options in there. How about you, Rosalie?
speaker-2: Yeah, I'm really boring and I do always strive to make me like I was the kid that like would rename their Final Fantasy VII characters to be like all my friends in school because I didn't wanted us. I I wanted to be Aries. I wanted to be my friend was like Diva. It was just just what I liked. But I kinda I think I've always kind of used it as a way to like like it's gonna sound really cheesy, like love myself or kind of like express myself. So like I was you're talking about the Sims. I was like obsessed with the original Sims. And what I loved about it is that I made me, and back then you could also your character could be like bisexual. And I that is literally probably how I discovered like help me come out because I was constantly making like me get like get with like female characters. And I was like, huh, why am I doing this? okay. and I've kind of used that to kind of like. I feel like games will kinda help me along in that way as well. So like narrative.
speaker-1: Safe space to explore how you're feeling and thinking about certain things.
speaker-2: Yeah. And now like as I've gotten older and I'm I'm a plus size woman, like I am the minute I get a new game, there's a character creation, my my first instinct instinct is can I be me and can I be the truer version where I'm plus size? And I think when I am able to do that, it's made me more comfortable and more like positive about my body in real life. and I'm and it's whenever I do see like plus size characters in general. I'm like, way. but yeah, I always I always like to make me or try to make me, I I realize that other people are better at it. Cause like my version of me in Tomodachi life is not as good as my partner's version of me in Tomodachi Life.
speaker-1: It's really hard to like look at your own face and be like, does my nose like like that? Like I don't I don't know. Like this is close enough.
speaker-2: Yeah, because you don't I don't want to be like, Am I flattering myself too much? Am I being too negative? but no, yeah, I always I always make me. I'm very I feel like I'm fortunate though, where if it's like an R in an RPG, my name kinda doesn't stand out as much. If you know it's like, Rosalie, we're going to this inn and I'm like, that seems kind of normal. Whereas when my partner makes himself and it's like Andrew, I'm like, that doesn't really work very well.
speaker-1: You've both got quite RPG names actually. They sort of feel quite sort of magical and and f floral and that's
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: just Sam. okay, cool.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: I'm the same. I think I've I think I'm somewhere between the two of you where like I like to try and represent myself, but there's like a little like a cooler edge to it than the the standard me. But like like you, like I'm I'm not skinny and I think we need to remember that like the UK average size is like size 16, but that never feels like the kind of default option. It's always like very petite and usually short. So Yeah, the minute I'm like, there and the and as long as it's not just like you can be skinny or you can be very round, like I love being able to kind of do things that are realistic where yeah, you can have bigger boobs but still have like skinny legs or whi whatever you think it, you know, is the best representation of of you, like feels the most important. rather than just being like, Okay, I've got like five different body types and none of them feel great.
speaker-0: He's
speaker-1: so yeah, it's interesting though. I w and what do you think like do you do you think it has got better? No, no, no.
speaker-0: There's a really long silence.
speaker-2: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I think especially when I was growing up as a teenager, there were very few examples bar the Sims, I think, of character creators that I remember being able to kind of see myself reflected. just especially in terms of the body type that I had growing up. so I'm quite tall, I'm a bit chunky, you know, I and you know, I was kind of the oldest in my year as well. So I was surrounded by people that were smaller than me. the media was kind of feeding me this ideal that I should have, that I didn't have. So I felt very alone in that. And even when I was playing things like Mass Effect, like Shepard's figure is like, damn, I wish I looked like Fem Shep, you know, but I
speaker-1: Super tight outfits at all. I guess it's like a rook one for space. Like I don't know.
speaker-0: you know, she's very athletic and she kicks are so fair enough, but it was just not me at all. so it was, I do think there were very few examples of that. I mean, even going back to when I was a very little kid, the idea of actually being able to play a girl trainer in Pokemon Crystal was so novel and exciting for me. So it and so now there's so many more options, and I think it's great in games like Coral Island, which you recently introduced me to Zan. that's that's great for being quite inclusive in choosing the different body type and the pronoun that you want. and it's not kind of sort of so tightly set so you can you can just, you know, be your own little farmer. And that's even those little things are really nice. So
speaker-1: Clothes are quite bad in that as they I'm like everyone else's got like really nice like winter and different seasonal kind of outfits and then yours are kind of just like you can have some dungarees because you're the farmer. and maybe like a jacket and some t-shirts. And I'm like, I want a nice winter coat like they've got. I'm just strutting about in the snow with like basically a t-shirt on, like
speaker-0: Yeah, and they have a lot of crop tops and I'm not jiving with the the crop tops.
speaker-1: ban crop tops in video games, I wouldn't, because I swear every single video game has a has a lo an abundance of crop tops with like a jacket over the top. And I'm like, there is never a world where I I in real life would wear a crop top.
speaker-0: No no I'm not sure person either.
speaker-1: Not even like crop top bras, like I just wanna like discover the tummy, please.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: How about you, Rasoline?
speaker-2: I was thinking again that it's funny, you're talking about Pokemon Crystal. Cause I I literally like ignored gold and silver and saved up my pocket money specifically because I was like, no, I want to be a girl, it's time. and it was such like a monumental moment. yeah, I think it I mean it's we all know it's kind of dependent on like the studio and the type of game that you're playing now. but yeah, I mean it's definitely better. I mean, I grew up in the 90s, so it Having even just like female rep choice to be female presenting in a game is like a big step and it shouldn't be. but it is. but yeah, I do think it's gotten better. I do I get I do think like I don't wanna hammer on too much about the fact that I am a a bigger lady, but I do think that side of it isn't great still. but I think that that's like a it's not just a problem in games, it's like a universal issue where people don't usually don't like seeing plus size or different shape bodies in any media still to this day. and I do wish that
speaker-1: Do it's like a co the comedy character usually, right?
speaker-2: Yeah, 'cause I think I was talking about just like plus size rep to somebody and they like, Well, but the game Fat Princess And I'm like, Mm, is that really like I don't think that counts as good representation?
speaker-1: Just think about what that title is. Just for a second, right?
speaker-2: Exactly. but yeah, it's like at that point where if you if I do see that I can like make a body looks more like mine, I'm like, yay, but at the same time I shouldn't have that feeling. It should just be in everything regardless. but you know, I'll take what I can get. but yeah, it's it's it it can always be better.
speaker-1: do you think the idea of having just more character options is enough? Or does it does it always need to be kind of the intrinsic kind of sliders and and multiple options? Or do you think there's kind of like a good middle ground between just having more diverse representation in kind of character create creation when it comes to like kind of selecting defaults and stuff?
speaker-2: Yeah, 'cause like Sea of Thieves has a thing like that where you you don't have sliders. It like generates random pirates and then you have to keep you select which one yeah, yeah. You're like, no. which is weird, but at the same time, the the characters are really, really interesting. And it's probably like there's like really beautiful, like plus size women. And I was like, Yes, yes, thank you, Rare. but it was weird that there wasn't a slider, but at the same time it was like, you know, I I like the kind of the the randomizing element of it and I liked that it was a bit different from other games. and I like it kind of the the ones you do mesh well into the kind of weird pirate mystical world that they've kind of created. but yeah they can be a middle ground. I think it's also dependent on what you're playing. So I wouldn't expect dead like detailed sliders like a Stardew Valley type situation where you're dealing with light pixel artwork. because that could get very muddled very easily. but yeah it definitely should be a middle ground for sure.
speaker-1: You agree, Heather?
speaker-0: Yeah, I do. I think, you know, the more choice the better in in any case, really. But like it's it's nice when you do see sliders and you're like, I can really just tweak this specific thing 'cause maybe you have a bigger chin or whatever it is and you wanna you wanna see that in a video game. But yeah, I do think sometimes the defaults can also be done quite well. Again, WWE was was pretty good for that. Even though that, you know, it's still that sort of like idealised like I'm a heavyweight champ. So but yeah, it's just just having more options is always gonna be a welcome thing. and you know, I think the more the more skin colours there are, the more hair types, textures, skin conditions, even, little scars, all the small
speaker-1: I love it when you get like Vertiligo in a game. I'm like, yeah. Cause I think it's really cool. It is cool.
speaker-0: and again, like the smallest thing will matter to someone. So yeah, it's always just I I hope as well as as games keep getting more sophisticated, more graphically, you know, impressive, whatever, there's more thought paid to how can we let players represent them their characters and themselves in games.
speaker-1: How does it change your connection with a game when you feel genuinely represented after you've done a character creation?
speaker-0: I mean, I as as a a huge RPG fan, like being able to really feel like I can embody a character through the choices that I've made in in a character creation suite is everything. It really does make it feel like I have immediately sort of stepped into this role and connected with them because you know, I spend hours in character creation suites and then when they're really good and detailed, it's like I've really thought about every little thing. I'll create little backstories for little details I'd give in them or whatever it is. Or if it's me, it's like if I can make a really great character in Pokemon, for example, it's like, my God, I'm actually finally a trainer in the game. you know. So it really does enhance the experience for me, for sure.
speaker-2: Yeah. It's a lot easier to be obsessive Starian when he's talking to someone that looks like you.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: What I sometimes find frustrating is when they have like a really good character creation and then it doesn't then follow that through through the game because like I l I feel like, you know, the kind of body and face type is one thing, but then the kind of the outfits and and the way that you can then accessorize that character as you go through the game, particularly in RPG, is also really important. Is that just me?
speaker-2: Yeah. It's like that meme where it's like you can there's a cutscene and there's a custom character and they just have this crazy elaborate outfit and the character looks really, really bizarre. but yeah, yeah, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's like I I think about like trans morgue as one of the best features that have been added in games in recent memory for me because it's like, all of a sudden I don't have to care about stats. I can like have the best armor but make it look the way I want it to look. And I think Cyberpunk twenty seventy seven is a fantastic example of completely overhauling their system so that now you can just pick the outfit that you want because it used to be like stat dependence.
speaker-1: Really random assortment of things.
speaker-0: Yeah, wild outfits like hot pants because it had really good stats and you're like, This looks terrible.
speaker-1: And also like a so-arm realistic. How is this giving me the maximum like protection when I've literally just got my ass hanging out?
speaker-0: So yeah, that was like the the best update. because it was just like, now I can wear really, really cool jackets and just, you know, give myself the best cyberware and it doesn't matter anymore. So yeah, that and that's great because you can really role play, especially with the different life paths. It's like I want to make myself a really cool street kid or a nomad, you can like pick outfits to kinda go with that as well. So yeah, I I agree that I love it.
speaker-1: Feel like it's the one thing that kind of helps a game that doesn't have character creation. I'm still knee-deep in Assassin's Creed Black Flag Remastered. And like obviously, you can't really change his like hair or anything like that. But like some of the pirate outfits are amazing. And I'm like, it it helps me feel more connected because at least I've had some control over how he looks in cutscenes. And like it just helps that kind of connect connection with the character. If you you just have a little bit of control about how your version of a character looks and like my partner's playing it too and his his it's Edward Kenway, isn't it? That's his name. I just made that up, yeah. how his Edward looks versus how my Edward looks. And there's like there's not even that many outfits in that game, but it I just feel like it really helps even when you're kind of playing a defined character and like, you with like Horizon Zero Dawn and things like that, when you've got like different armours doing different things, but you can still kind of treat how they look. And I always find it hilarious when like They add a transmog feature as like a post-launch update that comes like months after the games come out and the community's go, Yes. It's like like surely
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: the that's always the reaction to them adding transmog. Just add it in when you do it. Like I guess it's one of those like just add multiplayer things that I'm being very I'm sure it's incredibly difficult to add transmog, but it does seem to have like always be the feature that people are really excited about when it comes as a as an update. So I don't know, devs? Thoughts?
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Has come into the Witcher three as well with the remastered.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean how how how long has that game been out for and it hasn't been found for play?
speaker-0: Twenty fifteen. Yeah.
speaker-1: We've waited eleven years for this transform and goddammit, he's gonna look amazing.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: how I mean, how do you think as kind of character I feel like we're kind of on the fence as to whether character creation has got better over the years, but like do you think it doesn't help by the fact that when there are kind of character diverse options, the the backlash pre-launch tends to be very negative from a vocal minority?
speaker-0: I mean, yeah, I the it's just that really like tired narrative that a game is trying too hard to be I don't even want to say the word woke. Yeah. Well yeah, me too. I mean it's just you know, whenever there's not a I don't know, a heteronormative, attractive, conventionally attractive character leading the a game, it's
speaker-1: Male or female.
speaker-0: male f yeah. you know, there's been so much backlash for so many different games because of that, but it's always that s that really like loud, annoying vocal minority of people. but I do I do wonder if it ever influences I hope it doesn't, developers' approach to you know, the characters that they put in their games. it's all about money and marketing and you know, it gets it all it all gets quite complicated and just But you know, it's d I just I just hope that it doesn't scare, especially smaller developers away from continuing to give us more diverse characters because there's such a diverse player base out there and it just I'm just so tired of seeing the same types of characters leading games. and that's why character creation is so important, because suddenly you can make the character that you wanna make and it's, you know. Diversify yourself in a way. So Yeah.
speaker-1: find it frustrating as well because it's like there there isn't any person in my life that I know that plays games regardless of gender or identity who doesn't want to create a character that looks or feels like they have themselves in it like you were saying Heather like even if it's not identical the idea of not having that control and that flexibility to to create the character that you want to see in a game like that's the sentiment that I get from everybody who plays games that I know. So Yeah, sure surely even the vocal minority want to look at a game and be like, That's a cool character that I made myself and it looks how I want it to look. So it's it's baffling to me.
speaker-2: Yeah. That's why I was really annoyed when Pokemon Legends EA came out, 'cause it was like, you can go to a cafe and take photos of you and your Pokemon. But no matter like the no matter what I make, it doesn't look like me at all. and it's really annoying because it's like, you know, Switch two, yeah, look at all the fancy graphics, it's amazing. But you can't make yourself in Pokemon, you know, the one of the the highest grossing like When IPs in the world can't just make little plus size people or can't just add like better haircuts or skin tones and I'm like
speaker-1: Hair is so bad and like
speaker-2: So bad. I've got like a mine has I try to do like my thing, but I've got like a lopsided fringe instead and I'm just like what who is this? So like it's so annoying.
speaker-1: appreciate the fact it had way more clothing options and they were quite quite fun. But it still felt very much like, you can have blonde, brown or black hair. That's pretty much I think you can have other coloured hairs, but it just still felt very like cookie cutter other
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-1: than like organic. So I think you could just choose different faces as a whole, right? It's not like different eyes or different mouths or just trying to piece together a little bit more creatively.
speaker-2: At least they didn't lock their some shops behind deluxe edition of the game like GT has
speaker-1: forgot about that. Yeah. I mean that is a game that does us feel at least like she is very curvy. So I'm like, that's really interesting that like obviously she's very Latino and that's kind of a stereotype of of Latino women. But I did what I was just like, my gosh, she's got a really big bum. Like this is amazing. That's so cool. And I'm sure it's being appreciated from a different area of the community in a very different way. But I was just like, yeah, you cur a curvy lead woman. Because I was trying to rack my brains ahead of this podcast to think about Like if we remove character creation, like I can't think of any plus size leading characters, male or female, for a game. Like the only one that I could think of was Bloom and Rage, Lost Records Bloom and Rage, where it's got like quite a diverse lineup of women as the as the main characters, but she's just one of four. I I can't think of any games where there's a plus size person as the lead character. Can you?
speaker-2: No, one of my favorites back in the day was weirdly when Fortnite originally came out before it was when it was the a tower defense game. there was a model, I think she was called Penny, but she was like plus size. And there's literally like a really old tweet of me being like, Fortnite's amazing, like before it was like a thing purely because I was madly in love with that character model. And then they were like, No, it's different now and I don't even think you can She's like a default option. I think she maybe pops up in the store every once in a while. so that makes me sad. But yeah, I literally I'm trying to think. There's a character is it Borderlands too, but they're not a main character. Like I which I cannot think of like a main plus size batalia. yeah, yeah. That's true. Yeah.
speaker-1: Also in skin tight clothes, so it's just like kind of celebrated in a way and it's all about eating and food. So like maybe Dave the divers are are junky king.
speaker-2: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: The warrior?
speaker-0: I mean
speaker-2: Psycho representation.
speaker-1: I've got a question. When you've created your own character and then you go into a game and the characters are still kind of stereotypes or yeah, they rely on tropes like, you know, being the the funny fat one or whatever, like, how does that make you feel when you're playing games? Or is that something that we're just not coming up as much against anymore?
speaker-0: Yeah, it's interesting. I like when you brought up Bloom and Rage there with the lead character in that, and it was so refreshing to just see a kind of teen girl who had a sort of you know, not a a normal sort of stick rail thin figure or whatever it is. And she's she's just but she's so much more than how she looks. as as we were kind of talking earlier, it's kind of like a character is so much more than their appearance. and so as well, there's so much this yeah, it's I I think when you make a character one note because of how they look, it's not a real representation of how people are in reality. We're so much more than our arms, our legs, if we got a bit of a double chin, whatever it is, we're so much more than that. and so think It also comes down to good storytelling, good writing. It's making these characters feel like fleshed out, realized characters that aren't just like, she's a bit she's a bit plus size, so therefore she has to use comedy and and be goofy or whatever it is. it's yeah. So I think just it it does matter. I'm trying to think of like examples of when that's come up in games and I can't think of any.
speaker-1: Well that's good at least.
speaker-0: Yeah. I'm sure there will like afterwards like, there's this one. but yeah, so yeah, it's is intra it's an interesting thing because it's like so great to have all of these these options and it's so important to be able to reflect how diverse people are and make you f it's make so many people feel seen in video games. Then it's also like when you're meeting other characters in games, it's also just as important that There's diversity there, there's there's good representation there as well. So yeah. Very rambly.
speaker-1: That's all good. Anything you want to add, Rosen?
speaker-2: No, just that I also loved Lost Records. Like I like have the final and I bought a physical copy just to like have it and hold it 'cause 'cause it was 'cause it was interesting because obviously it's like based in like a fictional nineties. So like not mentioning that she's plus eyes at all would not be realistic as a as as like as a child who grew up in the nineties. And I think there's a character's brother who makes like little comment, but that was kind of it and I really liked that it wasn't a focus and like like that game just made me love at all. Yeah. That game just made me feel seen. I like cried the whole way through. It was like yeah if you're like I grew up as like a a queer kid in the 90s it's like a it's just like I feel like it's like a queer girl stand by me in a way it was just it was marvelous.
speaker-0: Perfect description for it truly.
speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, she she's like I I lost Fawn so much she's like my Discord icon and has been since I came came out. but yes, lost her.
speaker-1: The fact that she's called Swan. It's just such a like sort of feminine girly name I've never thought of before. And you're like, yeah, because it's kind of a it's kind of cool. I also like the fact I literally can't, my brain is such a sieve that obviously there's like the other character who's got like quite bad like teenage acne and stuff. And again, it's not really not brought in as a focus, it's just there. And it's just like is an accurate representation of like how how your friendship group looked in the 90s and a as a teenager. And it's just like it was so refreshing to be like. None of them are perfect. Like they're all really interesting like ph physically and like emotionally. It like yeah. I c I if they don't make a sequel for that game, I'm gonna be very upset because they left it on such a frickin' cliffhanger. I'm come on.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: They all just feel so real, don't they? They just did such a phenomenal job both in in portraying them and and writing them and yeah, God, I just hope we get more, I really do.
speaker-1: It was interesting as well, because they were still as interesting as adults as well. Cause it still had like hooks of that teenage kind of like awkwardness and like I don't know how it must feel to see people who you had like such a mad experience with as teenagers and then like what it was like twenty something years later or whatever. Like it does and they were just so interesting as as adults as well. That's just yeah. It's and it's been interesting as well, because it it's a game I think about a lot. Despite it not being characters that you've created yourself, it still felt very representative of like all the different parts of myself as well in a way. Yeah. so I love we love that game. Well
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: done. Whoever made it, I can't remember. but yeah, they are very good games. Is there is there any others that are like the ones that stay with you for for characters like that feeling very human?
speaker-2: This is gonna be one of these moments where we finish recording and ev I think of every single character. Yeah.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: I feel like Life is Strange didn't do it in this as a good a way as as Bloom and Rage did. But there are some characters that I'm like, yeah, I love them, but they all still felt quite
speaker-0: feel like yeah they were already kind of trying to find their feet with it. I mean it was I might pronounce his name wrong, Michael Koch who wrote the original Life is Strange and then he he wrote or helped write Bloom and Rage as the the original team some of the original team members. And I really think you can see how they've grown and used the kind of It's interesting that all of their games have supernatural elements, but they're also grounded in like real characters that feel like you know them. but l like the first Life is Strange was very like, you know, the hella good writing kind of stuff in it. it's very like yeah, like a coming of age story that I don't know. I mean, I love Life is Strange, but I Bloom and Rage kind of really took it away for me. yeah. Yeah. Trying to think of like games. There's definitely been some where I've been like, this character
speaker-1: The characters that have always stayed with me have been like Arthur Morgan and Joel and Ellie and like all the kind of stereo stereotypes really we'll really. I loved Clementine and The Walking Dead, the Telltale One. I thought she was an amazing character, but
speaker-0: And again, that's quite a a unique thing. You don't really see like a young girl leading a big series like that. And her her story and her growth across the series is so well done. How she kind of goes from being the one being taught things to being the mentor to AJ in in the last series is so so good.
speaker-1: I think that's really interesting as well, because we we got kind of caught up last time talking about how age is portrayed in video games. And I feel like that is still something that in character creation is still kind of underserved. Like I still feel like you're kind of perpetually 20-something in a video game rather than like embracing the kind of the crow's feet and the wrinkles and the kind of the way that your face moves as you get older and like it's either like, yeah, youthful or like incredibly wrinkled and haggard and and and like your face is melting like an old candle or something. Like I still feel like that, especially as I get older and start to like look at my face and go, my God, I have got the the the lines coming in and stuff. And obviously that is not the things that modern society embraces now in the them in the mainstream, but I do think it's something that's missing from games still is that kind of diversity of of of ages as well. Cause like We're not always gonna look like this and like grey hair still feels like, you know, the sort of sort of salt and pepper element is still very elusive.
speaker-2: Yeah, I always feel like I have to still pick the, you know, it's like an age slider, like twenties, because once I get to like thirty-five, they just seem to think that you just look like an old granny. Yeah. It's like, no. so I think it's like the twenty five mark. I'm like, maybe. And I'm like, I'm nowhere near that anymore. So that's a bit scary. But yeah, it's just disappointing. Not that I want to ha show off all my wrinkles and a version of me. I'd like to pretend they don't exist, but
speaker-1: Yeah. So even like God of Wall of Fae, I feel like she's still she still looks like she's twenty something, even though she's probably like thirty or forty. I don't actually know how old the actress who plays her is, but
speaker-2: Ages and games always terrifies me 'cause I I recently found out that Sid Highwind, who I pr always perceived as being like late sixties, early seventies, said he's thirty-two. And I'm like, no.
speaker-1: It's almost one of those things where you think about it, you're like, the poka average Pokemon trainer is probably about twelve as well. yeah. would
speaker-0: No.
speaker-1: I want my twelve year old going out into the world and prattling r random wild animals? Like probably not.
speaker-2: It's why I've always wanted a persona game where you weren't in high school because I'm just kind of fed up of being dealing with high school shenanigans. I did that in real life. That was traumatic enough. I don't want to keep it experiencing. Yeah. but yeah, if they need to make them a bit older, that'd be grand. Also, would make some relationships in that game a little less problematic. but yes, let me let me be old.
speaker-1: Just older. Don't want to be like, you know, seventy or whatever, but just something that feels a little bit more representative of of of where we are in the world. I think for me it's like don't be afraid to put things that are ugly in. because like we were saying about like wrinkles and cellulite and aging and and stretch marks and scars and We all have things that we probably don't like about our body, but seeing those represented in games makes it feel more normal and more appreciated because it's not the things that you're gonna see celebrated in movies, I don't think, because it's not ever gonna be or or other media generally, like maybe it's easier in books, but like video games have that unique ability to make you feel reflected in a way that nothing else can. So it needs to kind of include the things that we feel self-conscious about because otherwise it just becomes a perpetual like, yeah, a almost like a youth simulator, or beauty simulator in a way that I don't think is actually constructive for kind of mental health or just how du how diverse we all are. Like I think that would be my my one thing. So it's okay to be a bit wibbly around the edges. And have scars and stretch marks and all the things that we don't like because that's just part being a human being, basically.
speaker-2: Think for me, again, I'm very focused on the plus size thing, so I do apologize. but for me it's
speaker-1: Important.
speaker-2: it is important, yeah. I think because very quick backstory. I have hypothyroidism, which is like an illness that kind of affect changes your body. So it's it's always the older I've gotten and the more I have to deal with it, the more I I think about it, especially in what we write about and and games. But what I find interesting is when there is plus size options that a lot of the time there there's not an ability to have like fat roles. Like not all plus size people are shaped the same. This usually it's like you're big, or your stomach's still flat, and I'm like, ha, I wish. I would like to have like honestly, let me have my bingo wings in a character. Let me let me yeah, let me have these bingo wings. Yeah, exactly. Because yeah, it is you know, it's like again when you watch movies and like, yeah, a plus size person, but then it's still like an idealized version of what they think a plus size person should look like and things are a lot very flat in areas where a lot of people don't have those areas. so yeah, I want give me let me have a fat roll slider, because I actually think that would be cool. As so long as the clothes that the character wears wouldn't then hide them. 'Cause you know, but yeah.
speaker-1: Or to only be exclusively crop tops.
speaker-2: Yes, yes, no, no, no, no, no.
speaker-1: like that too because like I think Heather and I have always talked about like both of us are quite tall and quite broad shouldered and like that always feels like again like I think I mentioned it before but like you can either be tall and skinny but it's like I'm I don't ever feel like my actual body shape is reflected in in games. It's always just like well I'm I've never been lanky ever in my entire life. Like even when I was like pretty slim like I just like it's I've just never been a kind of traditional feminine shape. Someone once called me Amazonian and that was my favourite thing I've ever heard in their life. Don't think I quite live up to that, but I think the kind of yeah, tall and broadness is not something that's always kind of ticked off in in yeah, the way the character creation is built. Sorry, Heather, I jumped in.
speaker-0: I completely agree with you. I felt like an alien growing up because I really was just like I felt like I was the only one that was kind of tall and and also wide, like bored. and you know, it still gets to me sometimes now. So when you see people in media that kind of look a bit like you, you're like, maybe I'm not so weird, maybe I'm not so alone. And that's the whole thing with character creation. I hope developers keep consulting with as many different players as possible to real to see like what features they could add to make people feel seam. because I've I've probably said this like twice now, but the smallest thing can make all the difference. You put in like an option to have a a scar or a cleft lip or whatever it is, and then suddenly someone's like, my goodness, I mean I'm yeah, I'm here and they've seen me and and it's okay to look like I do.
speaker-2: 'Cause how come we can have like look at all these mage staffs and all these big fantasy things. Give me like a hearing aid. Let me have a little fantasy hearing aid, things like that. Why? That that wouldn't take you out because there's magic. Magic's you know, you can do anything in these worlds. Just let me have a little too. Yeah.
speaker-1: fun with it. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as it is in real life. It's s if it's a fantasy game, make a cool fantasy version of a hearing aid and like make people feel like included but in a way that feels appropriate for the world as well. So yeah. Yeah. It's the most creative medium in the whole world. Let's let's make it feel creative in humanity as well. well hopefully that's been a good celebration of of character creation. There are really good character creations out there. we start at the top with with positives for a change rather than the negative. But let us know what your favourite character creations are, please, because we are always looking for more diverse ways of representing humanity in video games. And join us next week for another amazing chat about women in canes. Thank you so much. Say bye everyone. Bye.
speaker-1: what was your opening track?
speaker-0: I picked a very sort of regal sounding sort of classical track, for money because I I kind of decked her out with a top hat and all of this fancy outfit and I was called like the TNATA so I was sort of like yeah, I did a really stupid thing, so
speaker-1: Welcome back, everyone. Here we are with another episode of Girls. And today it's myself, Heather, and Rosalie talking about character creation, the good, the bad, and probably the ugly two. but let's start off with I'm gonna start with the positive this time because I feel like we always start with the negatives, and there are some really good character creations out there that are very good at representation. So, Heather, what's what will be the one that you recommend or has stuck with you through your years of gaming?
speaker-0: there's quite a few actually that that s that stick out to me. I think as a as an avid RPG player, they've definitely gotten better over the years. and interestingly the one of the ones that always sti comes to mind is Dragon's Dogma Two, which I really wasn't expecting to be as good. I'd never touched the first game, so I had no knowledge of the series at all. but going into it, I was just kind of blown away by how many different sliders there were, different like body types that you can really adjust everything. So I could give my main character like chunky thighs. And I was like, I could make myself if I want to, which is such a rarity, especially in in RPGs, it feels like there's always sort of lots of carbon copy kind of body types and it kind of stuck in it. You don't always get to adjust it.
speaker-1: I feel like you get like short and squat, tall and lanky, and that's basically it.
speaker-0: Yeah. There's no kind of middle ground sort of curvaceous people, you know, it's always sort of
speaker-1: How dare you want to be tall and tall and bigger?
speaker-0: Exactly. and I, you know, I've kind of been blown away by how many people have created like other characters within that character suite. So it just goes to show like how good it is that you can like kind of make anyone that you want. I can give more examples.
speaker-1: Go on, you go in.
speaker-0: I could last year I really, really got into WWE, which was surprise myself and lots of people that kind of know me.
speaker-1: It was so unlike you to WW but I kind of love the fact you've just embraced it.
speaker-0: Done it so much. And you know, I started getting into the fantasy of like if I could be a WWE wrestler, what would I do? What would my entrance be? What would my outfit be? And so I got WWE 2K25 to try and do that basically. And I was honestly surprised by how good the character creation suite is in that as well. obviously, you have all of your muscly body types in there, but there's actually like softer body types as well, you can adjust. the th like different things in it so that you really can, if you want to be a wrestler, try and make yourself in it.
speaker-1: what was your opening track?
speaker-0: I picked a very sort of regal sounding sort of classical track for Molly because I I kind of decked her out with a top hat and all of this fancy outfit and I was called like the TNATA. So I was sort of like, yeah, I did a really stupid thing. So but yeah, it's there's so many options in that that I was I was quite surprised by it. But obviously I don't really have too much knowledge of that game series, but I was genuinely quite impressed by that.
speaker-1: It's not the a game that would come to mind when you say like character creation, really. Like i I just assumed you'd be playing one of the various wrestlers there are in the world.
speaker-0: Yeah. They definitely let you sort of live in that fantasy. and I mean, I can keep do you want me to keep going?
speaker-1: Give me one more and then it's first was time.
speaker-0: Okay. Okay. I I do have to I mean, as a massive Bioware fan, it comes as no surprise I have to talk about Dragon Age. I do have to say the earlier Dragon Age games aren't that great for character creation. But Dragon Age the Veilguard, despite some of its you know, story thing, you know, whatever, it's such a fantastic character creation suite for an RPG. there Before you could only have set body types, it was all tied to the different fantasy races that you could play as. In the Veil Guard, you can really tweak it. You can change their height, their figure, their legs, their arms, all of it, so that it really feels like, you know, you can create the kind of character that you want to be. and then they even sort of go even further than that by sort of reflecting it, some of the role play options that you can choose later on. So you get this little mirror from Varric and you can kind of pick your gender identity. You can talk about your scars, the tattoos that you have. So it's really trying to be a reflection of who are who you want to be in the game. And you know, I I'd love to see more RPGs do that for sure.
speaker-1: How about you, Rosalie?
speaker-2: just thinking it's really funny that you mentioned like wrestling games because I grew up on no mercy on the N64 and I used to mate myself in it and then you could like choose your an item that you walked into the ring with. So I was like, I'm Rosalie, so I'll have roses and you could have like the rock or Kane like come with you into the thing. And I was like obsessed with the rock. So I was like he's my boyfriend now. And like it was it was very cringe but I loved it so much. I was also gonna say Dragon's Dogma 2 only because I was really surprised at how good it was. my cause you can make your like companion character and my fiance made me and it's the first time I have ever seen someone actually get my likeness in a game before and it was really bizarre, but it was like it's like, thank you for like popping me in there as your companion. but like all the freckles and like the kind of it was just it was it's pretty, pretty groovy. my other favorite is Disney's Dreamlight Valley. It's a kind of their I don't want to say Animal Crossing light because it's not really that, but it surprised me. It's not the it's not the greatest character creation in the world, but what I really liked is that you can change your body type and they're not gendered. There's just like a muscular one, there's like a slightly curvier one. and it's just on a in a game that's very much leaning into the nostalgia and the you're a millennial and you're hanging out with Disney characters. It's cool to be see like an actual plus size me running about and hanging out with Hades and Fairy Godmother and a random assortment of Disney characters. but they also have like loads of different skin types and things as well, which I've not I don't see that often, though you know you should see that often. and it has you can pick right from the get go, you can have turbines and things and I was just like, That's really cool. I but yeah, Disney Disney surprised me with that one. Or is it Game Loft, I should say, 'cause they're developers, but yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think I th and and that's part of it, right? Is like trying trying to get the different not only like visual styles, but like getting the like kind of religious element into there because obviously it's hugely important to a lot of a lot of gamers and giving people options to like feel truly reflective just does seem like it is still there is always still something that kind of holds a game back. Like the ones that I were gonna suggest was I've I've talked about it on previous episodes with Cyberpunk twenty seventy-seven. feels very kind of like you can, you know, choose how you want to be referred to in terms of pronouns and then everything else is just kind of like sliders and like I was like, I might choose to have boobs and a penis or like and just kind of make make it feel like the real the real choice is down to you and how you want to be reflective. So that for me seems like the kind of pinnacle and obviously it's still got issues in terms of like representation, but it feels like the most kind of biologically playful in a way is just to kind of be like, okay, I can can be different and how I feel reflected in in whatever kind of version of yourself you see. and then the Sims obviously for me is just like it's been a it's been a backbone of my entire gaming career. But it just keeps getting better and better. And I hope that doesn't change now that the ownership is where it is. But like the fact that you can have like stretch marks and like cellulite and and things that are like ultimately very, very human and maybe not desirable, but like they are part they are part of being a human, not just a not just a woman. So like and like I love the fact that we were laughing on last week on Lost Team podcast that that there's that meme going around on TikTok about like the hairstyles that you can pick and gaze. And it's like five different ponytails, for example. It's like at least in The Sims there's like 50 plus different hairstyles that you actually feel like some of them are quite aspirational. I'm like, I actually quite like that. Maybe I'll try and do that later with like my short Bob hairstyle. But yeah, I think for me, like those those two are the ones that kind of stand out. And I I completely forgot about Dragon Dragon's Dogma 2 having a really good character creation. I spent freaking ages in that, especially because I now I can make a companion. I've only been here for days. And I'm shocked you haven't said Baldur's Gate 3, Heather.
speaker-0: Yeah, Baldur's Gate 3 is kind of I would actually say it's actually quite limited. it's I mean, there's so many choices in terms of classes, races, all of that stuff. And there's some fantastic features in it, but they're all kind of very set figures, very set faces. You can't tweak too much. There's at least different skin colors and and things like that.
speaker-1: They're quite limited within the kind of club, aren't they?
speaker-0: Yeah. So I mean, thank goodness for mods because I've I've put in so many more faces in it for for from the mods and hair as well. So much hair. So yeah, the mods mod community have done a great job there as well. But yeah, I guess it was sort of they just there's so many choices in that that maybe they had to sort of limit it in some way. Yeah.
speaker-1: I've got to stop somewhere. 10,000 million whatever dialogue choices just like, well, maybe we just keep the character creation a little bit more simple. Yeah. Like what is important to you guys in terms of character creation? Like, is it being able to like make make a you? Or is it just having the kind of diverse suite of options so you can create something that's a little bit more fantastical? Or like, how do you kind of approach character creation? Go on, Heather.
speaker-0: kind of
speaker-2: So I'm kind of
speaker-0: it I'm very dependent on the genre that I'm playing. but for the most part when it comes to like farming Sims, like so there's two exceptions where I'll make try and make myself in games, which is sort of Pokemon or Animal Crossing, because I desperately want to be in those games myself. So I'm like I I won't make myself, I will call the character Heather and everything. But then when I'm playing any other kind of RPG, I want to make my own sort of fantastical character that's way cooler than I am, but I still think I do channel parts of myself in it because I think you just do. and I think it's so important to have as many options as possible, even if you are making a fantasy character, because it's all about putting yourself in a role that you want to be in. Then it's also so important in terms of making you feel scene, like the smallest s you know, the smallest options can mean so much to someone out there. You know, I think about like prosthetics and pronouns and stuff in in Forza Horizon, for example. Small things like that can mean so much to someone out there who has maybe not seen themselves reflected in media enough and suddenly you have this option. And yeah, you can kind of put yourself in a game that you love. It's it's so important. So even though I'm a bit of an anomaly in the sense that I much prefer to kind of make my own fantasy characters, or I wouldn't say anomaly, but you know, I I love playing RPGs where I can kind of create my own OCs and stuff like that. But I do also want to have just as many options as possible so that if I wanted to make myself I could. And I think, you know, again, going back to Dragon's Dogma, the fact that you really can just like kind of make your own fantasies come true, whether it's making a partner or making your like idealized fictional character that you want to carry like journey around with, you know, that's the best of the best, really, isn't it?
speaker-1: And it's really interesting you mentioned about Falls Horizon 'cause I remember playing it and being like, I was so surprised that when they had like pus prosthetics in there 'cause just like again, the game where really your player character doesn't really that matter that much. It's more about the cars that you're driving and stuff. It's just like it's just just taking that moment to pause and be like, This this is you in the game if you want it to be, just feels I'm always taken aback, being like, my god, like that's so cool. And like it Yeah. It's twenty twenty six. You shouldn't feel like that with every character creation that like surprises you by having actual human options in there. How about you, Rosalie?
speaker-2: Yeah, I'm really boring and I do always strive to make me like I was the kid that like would rename their Final Fantasy VII characters to be like all my friends in school because I didn't wanted us. I I wanted to be Aries. I wanted to be my friend was like Diva. It was just just what I liked. But I kinda I think I've always kind of used it as a way to like like it's gonna sound really cheesy, like love myself or kind of like express myself. So like I was you're talking about the Sims. I was like obsessed with the original Sims. And what I loved about it is that I made me, and back then you could also your character could be like bisexual. And I that is literally probably how I discovered like help me come out because I was constantly making like me get like get with like female characters. And I was like, huh, why am I doing this? okay. and I've kind of used that to kind of like. I feel like games will kinda help me along in that way as well. So like narrative.
speaker-1: Safe space to explore how you're feeling and thinking about certain things.
speaker-2: Yeah. And now like as I've gotten older and I'm I'm a plus size woman, like I am the minute I get a new game, there's a character creation, my my first instinct instinct is can I be me and can I be the truer version where I'm plus size? And I think when I am able to do that, it's made me more comfortable and more like positive about my body in real life. and I'm and it's whenever I do see like plus size characters in general. I'm like, way. but yeah, I always I always like to make me or try to make me, I I realize that other people are better at it. Cause like my version of me in Tomodachi life is not as good as my partner's version of me in Tomodachi Life.
speaker-1: It's really hard to like look at your own face and be like, does my nose like like that? Like I don't I don't know. Like this is close enough.
speaker-2: Yeah, because you don't I don't want to be like, Am I flattering myself too much? Am I being too negative? but no, yeah, I always I always make me. I'm very I feel like I'm fortunate though, where if it's like an R in an RPG, my name kinda doesn't stand out as much. If you know it's like, Rosalie, we're going to this inn and I'm like, that seems kind of normal. Whereas when my partner makes himself and it's like Andrew, I'm like, that doesn't really work very well.
speaker-1: You've both got quite RPG names actually. They sort of feel quite sort of magical and and f floral and that's
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: just Sam. okay, cool.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: I'm the same. I think I've I think I'm somewhere between the two of you where like I like to try and represent myself, but there's like a little like a cooler edge to it than the the standard me. But like like you, like I'm I'm not skinny and I think we need to remember that like the UK average size is like size 16, but that never feels like the kind of default option. It's always like very petite and usually short. So Yeah, the minute I'm like, there and the and as long as it's not just like you can be skinny or you can be very round, like I love being able to kind of do things that are realistic where yeah, you can have bigger boobs but still have like skinny legs or whi whatever you think it, you know, is the best representation of of you, like feels the most important. rather than just being like, Okay, I've got like five different body types and none of them feel great.
speaker-0: He's
speaker-1: so yeah, it's interesting though. I w and what do you think like do you do you think it has got better? No, no, no.
speaker-0: There's a really long silence.
speaker-2: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I think especially when I was growing up as a teenager, there were very few examples bar the Sims, I think, of character creators that I remember being able to kind of see myself reflected. just especially in terms of the body type that I had growing up. so I'm quite tall, I'm a bit chunky, you know, I and you know, I was kind of the oldest in my year as well. So I was surrounded by people that were smaller than me. the media was kind of feeding me this ideal that I should have, that I didn't have. So I felt very alone in that. And even when I was playing things like Mass Effect, like Shepard's figure is like, damn, I wish I looked like Fem Shep, you know, but I
speaker-1: Super tight outfits at all. I guess it's like a rook one for space. Like I don't know.
speaker-0: you know, she's very athletic and she kicks are so fair enough, but it was just not me at all. so it was, I do think there were very few examples of that. I mean, even going back to when I was a very little kid, the idea of actually being able to play a girl trainer in Pokemon Crystal was so novel and exciting for me. So it and so now there's so many more options, and I think it's great in games like Coral Island, which you recently introduced me to Zan. that's that's great for being quite inclusive in choosing the different body type and the pronoun that you want. and it's not kind of sort of so tightly set so you can you can just, you know, be your own little farmer. And that's even those little things are really nice. So
speaker-1: Clothes are quite bad in that as they I'm like everyone else's got like really nice like winter and different seasonal kind of outfits and then yours are kind of just like you can have some dungarees because you're the farmer. and maybe like a jacket and some t-shirts. And I'm like, I want a nice winter coat like they've got. I'm just strutting about in the snow with like basically a t-shirt on, like
speaker-0: Yeah, and they have a lot of crop tops and I'm not jiving with the the crop tops.
speaker-1: ban crop tops in video games, I wouldn't, because I swear every single video game has a has a lo an abundance of crop tops with like a jacket over the top. And I'm like, there is never a world where I I in real life would wear a crop top.
speaker-0: No no I'm not sure person either.
speaker-1: Not even like crop top bras, like I just wanna like discover the tummy, please.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: How about you, Rasoline?
speaker-2: I was thinking again that it's funny, you're talking about Pokemon Crystal. Cause I I literally like ignored gold and silver and saved up my pocket money specifically because I was like, no, I want to be a girl, it's time. and it was such like a monumental moment. yeah, I think it I mean it's we all know it's kind of dependent on like the studio and the type of game that you're playing now. but yeah, I mean it's definitely better. I mean, I grew up in the 90s, so it Having even just like female rep choice to be female presenting in a game is like a big step and it shouldn't be. but it is. but yeah, I do think it's gotten better. I do I get I do think like I don't wanna hammer on too much about the fact that I am a a bigger lady, but I do think that side of it isn't great still. but I think that that's like a it's not just a problem in games, it's like a universal issue where people don't usually don't like seeing plus size or different shape bodies in any media still to this day. and I do wish that
speaker-1: Do it's like a co the comedy character usually, right?
speaker-2: Yeah, 'cause I think I was talking about just like plus size rep to somebody and they like, Well, but the game Fat Princess And I'm like, Mm, is that really like I don't think that counts as good representation?
speaker-1: Just think about what that title is. Just for a second, right?
speaker-2: Exactly. but yeah, it's like at that point where if you if I do see that I can like make a body looks more like mine, I'm like, yay, but at the same time I shouldn't have that feeling. It should just be in everything regardless. but you know, I'll take what I can get. but yeah, it's it's it it can always be better.
speaker-1: do you think the idea of having just more character options is enough? Or does it does it always need to be kind of the intrinsic kind of sliders and and multiple options? Or do you think there's kind of like a good middle ground between just having more diverse representation in kind of character create creation when it comes to like kind of selecting defaults and stuff?
speaker-2: Yeah, 'cause like Sea of Thieves has a thing like that where you you don't have sliders. It like generates random pirates and then you have to keep you select which one yeah, yeah. You're like, no. which is weird, but at the same time, the the characters are really, really interesting. And it's probably like there's like really beautiful, like plus size women. And I was like, Yes, yes, thank you, Rare. but it was weird that there wasn't a slider, but at the same time it was like, you know, I I like the kind of the the randomizing element of it and I liked that it was a bit different from other games. and I like it kind of the the ones you do mesh well into the kind of weird pirate mystical world that they've kind of created. but yeah they can be a middle ground. I think it's also dependent on what you're playing. So I wouldn't expect dead like detailed sliders like a Stardew Valley type situation where you're dealing with light pixel artwork. because that could get very muddled very easily. but yeah it definitely should be a middle ground for sure.
speaker-1: You agree, Heather?
speaker-0: Yeah, I do. I think, you know, the more choice the better in in any case, really. But like it's it's nice when you do see sliders and you're like, I can really just tweak this specific thing 'cause maybe you have a bigger chin or whatever it is and you wanna you wanna see that in a video game. But yeah, I do think sometimes the defaults can also be done quite well. Again, WWE was was pretty good for that. Even though that, you know, it's still that sort of like idealised like I'm a heavyweight champ. So but yeah, it's just just having more options is always gonna be a welcome thing. and you know, I think the more the more skin colours there are, the more hair types, textures, skin conditions, even, little scars, all the small
speaker-1: I love it when you get like Vertiligo in a game. I'm like, yeah. Cause I think it's really cool. It is cool.
speaker-0: and again, like the smallest thing will matter to someone. So yeah, it's always just I I hope as well as as games keep getting more sophisticated, more graphically, you know, impressive, whatever, there's more thought paid to how can we let players represent them their characters and themselves in games.
speaker-1: How does it change your connection with a game when you feel genuinely represented after you've done a character creation?
speaker-0: I mean, I as as a a huge RPG fan, like being able to really feel like I can embody a character through the choices that I've made in in a character creation suite is everything. It really does make it feel like I have immediately sort of stepped into this role and connected with them because you know, I spend hours in character creation suites and then when they're really good and detailed, it's like I've really thought about every little thing. I'll create little backstories for little details I'd give in them or whatever it is. Or if it's me, it's like if I can make a really great character in Pokemon, for example, it's like, my God, I'm actually finally a trainer in the game. you know. So it really does enhance the experience for me, for sure.
speaker-2: Yeah. It's a lot easier to be obsessive Starian when he's talking to someone that looks like you.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: What I sometimes find frustrating is when they have like a really good character creation and then it doesn't then follow that through through the game because like I l I feel like, you know, the kind of body and face type is one thing, but then the kind of the outfits and and the way that you can then accessorize that character as you go through the game, particularly in RPG, is also really important. Is that just me?
speaker-2: Yeah. It's like that meme where it's like you can there's a cutscene and there's a custom character and they just have this crazy elaborate outfit and the character looks really, really bizarre. but yeah, yeah, yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's like I I think about like trans morgue as one of the best features that have been added in games in recent memory for me because it's like, all of a sudden I don't have to care about stats. I can like have the best armor but make it look the way I want it to look. And I think Cyberpunk twenty seventy seven is a fantastic example of completely overhauling their system so that now you can just pick the outfit that you want because it used to be like stat dependence.
speaker-1: Really random assortment of things.
speaker-0: Yeah, wild outfits like hot pants because it had really good stats and you're like, This looks terrible.
speaker-1: And also like a so-arm realistic. How is this giving me the maximum like protection when I've literally just got my ass hanging out?
speaker-0: So yeah, that was like the the best update. because it was just like, now I can wear really, really cool jackets and just, you know, give myself the best cyberware and it doesn't matter anymore. So yeah, that and that's great because you can really role play, especially with the different life paths. It's like I want to make myself a really cool street kid or a nomad, you can like pick outfits to kinda go with that as well. So yeah, I I agree that I love it.
speaker-1: Feel like it's the one thing that kind of helps a game that doesn't have character creation. I'm still knee-deep in Assassin's Creed Black Flag Remastered. And like obviously, you can't really change his like hair or anything like that. But like some of the pirate outfits are amazing. And I'm like, it it helps me feel more connected because at least I've had some control over how he looks in cutscenes. And like it just helps that kind of connect connection with the character. If you you just have a little bit of control about how your version of a character looks and like my partner's playing it too and his his it's Edward Kenway, isn't it? That's his name. I just made that up, yeah. how his Edward looks versus how my Edward looks. And there's like there's not even that many outfits in that game, but it I just feel like it really helps even when you're kind of playing a defined character and like, you with like Horizon Zero Dawn and things like that, when you've got like different armours doing different things, but you can still kind of treat how they look. And I always find it hilarious when like They add a transmog feature as like a post-launch update that comes like months after the games come out and the community's go, Yes. It's like like surely
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: the that's always the reaction to them adding transmog. Just add it in when you do it. Like I guess it's one of those like just add multiplayer things that I'm being very I'm sure it's incredibly difficult to add transmog, but it does seem to have like always be the feature that people are really excited about when it comes as a as an update. So I don't know, devs? Thoughts?
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Has come into the Witcher three as well with the remastered.
speaker-1: Yeah. I mean how how how long has that game been out for and it hasn't been found for play?
speaker-0: Twenty fifteen. Yeah.
speaker-1: We've waited eleven years for this transform and goddammit, he's gonna look amazing.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: how I mean, how do you think as kind of character I feel like we're kind of on the fence as to whether character creation has got better over the years, but like do you think it doesn't help by the fact that when there are kind of character diverse options, the the backlash pre-launch tends to be very negative from a vocal minority?
speaker-0: I mean, yeah, I the it's just that really like tired narrative that a game is trying too hard to be I don't even want to say the word woke. Yeah. Well yeah, me too. I mean it's just you know, whenever there's not a I don't know, a heteronormative, attractive, conventionally attractive character leading the a game, it's
speaker-1: Male or female.
speaker-0: male f yeah. you know, there's been so much backlash for so many different games because of that, but it's always that s that really like loud, annoying vocal minority of people. but I do I do wonder if it ever influences I hope it doesn't, developers' approach to you know, the characters that they put in their games. it's all about money and marketing and you know, it gets it all it all gets quite complicated and just But you know, it's d I just I just hope that it doesn't scare, especially smaller developers away from continuing to give us more diverse characters because there's such a diverse player base out there and it just I'm just so tired of seeing the same types of characters leading games. and that's why character creation is so important, because suddenly you can make the character that you wanna make and it's, you know. Diversify yourself in a way. So Yeah.
speaker-1: find it frustrating as well because it's like there there isn't any person in my life that I know that plays games regardless of gender or identity who doesn't want to create a character that looks or feels like they have themselves in it like you were saying Heather like even if it's not identical the idea of not having that control and that flexibility to to create the character that you want to see in a game like that's the sentiment that I get from everybody who plays games that I know. So Yeah, sure surely even the vocal minority want to look at a game and be like, That's a cool character that I made myself and it looks how I want it to look. So it's it's baffling to me.
speaker-2: Yeah. That's why I was really annoyed when Pokemon Legends EA came out, 'cause it was like, you can go to a cafe and take photos of you and your Pokemon. But no matter like the no matter what I make, it doesn't look like me at all. and it's really annoying because it's like, you know, Switch two, yeah, look at all the fancy graphics, it's amazing. But you can't make yourself in Pokemon, you know, the one of the the highest grossing like When IPs in the world can't just make little plus size people or can't just add like better haircuts or skin tones and I'm like
speaker-1: Hair is so bad and like
speaker-2: So bad. I've got like a mine has I try to do like my thing, but I've got like a lopsided fringe instead and I'm just like what who is this? So like it's so annoying.
speaker-1: appreciate the fact it had way more clothing options and they were quite quite fun. But it still felt very much like, you can have blonde, brown or black hair. That's pretty much I think you can have other coloured hairs, but it just still felt very like cookie cutter other
speaker-2: Yes.
speaker-1: than like organic. So I think you could just choose different faces as a whole, right? It's not like different eyes or different mouths or just trying to piece together a little bit more creatively.
speaker-2: At least they didn't lock their some shops behind deluxe edition of the game like GT has
speaker-1: forgot about that. Yeah. I mean that is a game that does us feel at least like she is very curvy. So I'm like, that's really interesting that like obviously she's very Latino and that's kind of a stereotype of of Latino women. But I did what I was just like, my gosh, she's got a really big bum. Like this is amazing. That's so cool. And I'm sure it's being appreciated from a different area of the community in a very different way. But I was just like, yeah, you cur a curvy lead woman. Because I was trying to rack my brains ahead of this podcast to think about Like if we remove character creation, like I can't think of any plus size leading characters, male or female, for a game. Like the only one that I could think of was Bloom and Rage, Lost Records Bloom and Rage, where it's got like quite a diverse lineup of women as the as the main characters, but she's just one of four. I I can't think of any games where there's a plus size person as the lead character. Can you?
speaker-2: No, one of my favorites back in the day was weirdly when Fortnite originally came out before it was when it was the a tower defense game. there was a model, I think she was called Penny, but she was like plus size. And there's literally like a really old tweet of me being like, Fortnite's amazing, like before it was like a thing purely because I was madly in love with that character model. And then they were like, No, it's different now and I don't even think you can She's like a default option. I think she maybe pops up in the store every once in a while. so that makes me sad. But yeah, I literally I'm trying to think. There's a character is it Borderlands too, but they're not a main character. Like I which I cannot think of like a main plus size batalia. yeah, yeah. That's true. Yeah.
speaker-1: Also in skin tight clothes, so it's just like kind of celebrated in a way and it's all about eating and food. So like maybe Dave the divers are are junky king.
speaker-2: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: The warrior?
speaker-0: I mean
speaker-2: Psycho representation.
speaker-1: I've got a question. When you've created your own character and then you go into a game and the characters are still kind of stereotypes or yeah, they rely on tropes like, you know, being the the funny fat one or whatever, like, how does that make you feel when you're playing games? Or is that something that we're just not coming up as much against anymore?
speaker-0: Yeah, it's interesting. I like when you brought up Bloom and Rage there with the lead character in that, and it was so refreshing to just see a kind of teen girl who had a sort of you know, not a a normal sort of stick rail thin figure or whatever it is. And she's she's just but she's so much more than how she looks. as as we were kind of talking earlier, it's kind of like a character is so much more than their appearance. and so as well, there's so much this yeah, it's I I think when you make a character one note because of how they look, it's not a real representation of how people are in reality. We're so much more than our arms, our legs, if we got a bit of a double chin, whatever it is, we're so much more than that. and so think It also comes down to good storytelling, good writing. It's making these characters feel like fleshed out, realized characters that aren't just like, she's a bit she's a bit plus size, so therefore she has to use comedy and and be goofy or whatever it is. it's yeah. So I think just it it does matter. I'm trying to think of like examples of when that's come up in games and I can't think of any.
speaker-1: Well that's good at least.
speaker-0: Yeah. I'm sure there will like afterwards like, there's this one. but yeah, so yeah, it's is intra it's an interesting thing because it's like so great to have all of these these options and it's so important to be able to reflect how diverse people are and make you f it's make so many people feel seen in video games. Then it's also like when you're meeting other characters in games, it's also just as important that There's diversity there, there's there's good representation there as well. So yeah. Very rambly.
speaker-1: That's all good. Anything you want to add, Rosen?
speaker-2: No, just that I also loved Lost Records. Like I like have the final and I bought a physical copy just to like have it and hold it 'cause 'cause it was 'cause it was interesting because obviously it's like based in like a fictional nineties. So like not mentioning that she's plus eyes at all would not be realistic as a as as like as a child who grew up in the nineties. And I think there's a character's brother who makes like little comment, but that was kind of it and I really liked that it wasn't a focus and like like that game just made me love at all. Yeah. That game just made me feel seen. I like cried the whole way through. It was like yeah if you're like I grew up as like a a queer kid in the 90s it's like a it's just like I feel like it's like a queer girl stand by me in a way it was just it was marvelous.
speaker-0: Perfect description for it truly.
speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, she she's like I I lost Fawn so much she's like my Discord icon and has been since I came came out. but yes, lost her.
speaker-1: The fact that she's called Swan. It's just such a like sort of feminine girly name I've never thought of before. And you're like, yeah, because it's kind of a it's kind of cool. I also like the fact I literally can't, my brain is such a sieve that obviously there's like the other character who's got like quite bad like teenage acne and stuff. And again, it's not really not brought in as a focus, it's just there. And it's just like is an accurate representation of like how how your friendship group looked in the 90s and a as a teenager. And it's just like it was so refreshing to be like. None of them are perfect. Like they're all really interesting like ph physically and like emotionally. It like yeah. I c I if they don't make a sequel for that game, I'm gonna be very upset because they left it on such a frickin' cliffhanger. I'm come on.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: They all just feel so real, don't they? They just did such a phenomenal job both in in portraying them and and writing them and yeah, God, I just hope we get more, I really do.
speaker-1: It was interesting as well, because they were still as interesting as adults as well. Cause it still had like hooks of that teenage kind of like awkwardness and like I don't know how it must feel to see people who you had like such a mad experience with as teenagers and then like what it was like twenty something years later or whatever. Like it does and they were just so interesting as as adults as well. That's just yeah. It's and it's been interesting as well, because it it's a game I think about a lot. Despite it not being characters that you've created yourself, it still felt very representative of like all the different parts of myself as well in a way. Yeah. so I love we love that game. Well
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: done. Whoever made it, I can't remember. but yeah, they are very good games. Is there is there any others that are like the ones that stay with you for for characters like that feeling very human?
speaker-2: This is gonna be one of these moments where we finish recording and ev I think of every single character. Yeah.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: I feel like Life is Strange didn't do it in this as a good a way as as Bloom and Rage did. But there are some characters that I'm like, yeah, I love them, but they all still felt quite
speaker-0: feel like yeah they were already kind of trying to find their feet with it. I mean it was I might pronounce his name wrong, Michael Koch who wrote the original Life is Strange and then he he wrote or helped write Bloom and Rage as the the original team some of the original team members. And I really think you can see how they've grown and used the kind of It's interesting that all of their games have supernatural elements, but they're also grounded in like real characters that feel like you know them. but l like the first Life is Strange was very like, you know, the hella good writing kind of stuff in it. it's very like yeah, like a coming of age story that I don't know. I mean, I love Life is Strange, but I Bloom and Rage kind of really took it away for me. yeah. Yeah. Trying to think of like games. There's definitely been some where I've been like, this character
speaker-1: The characters that have always stayed with me have been like Arthur Morgan and Joel and Ellie and like all the kind of stereo stereotypes really we'll really. I loved Clementine and The Walking Dead, the Telltale One. I thought she was an amazing character, but
speaker-0: And again, that's quite a a unique thing. You don't really see like a young girl leading a big series like that. And her her story and her growth across the series is so well done. How she kind of goes from being the one being taught things to being the mentor to AJ in in the last series is so so good.
speaker-1: I think that's really interesting as well, because we we got kind of caught up last time talking about how age is portrayed in video games. And I feel like that is still something that in character creation is still kind of underserved. Like I still feel like you're kind of perpetually 20-something in a video game rather than like embracing the kind of the crow's feet and the wrinkles and the kind of the way that your face moves as you get older and like it's either like, yeah, youthful or like incredibly wrinkled and haggard and and and like your face is melting like an old candle or something. Like I still feel like that, especially as I get older and start to like look at my face and go, my God, I have got the the the lines coming in and stuff. And obviously that is not the things that modern society embraces now in the them in the mainstream, but I do think it's something that's missing from games still is that kind of diversity of of of ages as well. Cause like We're not always gonna look like this and like grey hair still feels like, you know, the sort of sort of salt and pepper element is still very elusive.
speaker-2: Yeah, I always feel like I have to still pick the, you know, it's like an age slider, like twenties, because once I get to like thirty-five, they just seem to think that you just look like an old granny. Yeah. It's like, no. so I think it's like the twenty five mark. I'm like, maybe. And I'm like, I'm nowhere near that anymore. So that's a bit scary. But yeah, it's just disappointing. Not that I want to ha show off all my wrinkles and a version of me. I'd like to pretend they don't exist, but
speaker-1: Yeah. So even like God of Wall of Fae, I feel like she's still she still looks like she's twenty something, even though she's probably like thirty or forty. I don't actually know how old the actress who plays her is, but
speaker-2: Ages and games always terrifies me 'cause I I recently found out that Sid Highwind, who I pr always perceived as being like late sixties, early seventies, said he's thirty-two. And I'm like, no.
speaker-1: It's almost one of those things where you think about it, you're like, the poka average Pokemon trainer is probably about twelve as well. yeah. would
speaker-0: No.
speaker-1: I want my twelve year old going out into the world and prattling r random wild animals? Like probably not.
speaker-2: It's why I've always wanted a persona game where you weren't in high school because I'm just kind of fed up of being dealing with high school shenanigans. I did that in real life. That was traumatic enough. I don't want to keep it experiencing. Yeah. but yeah, if they need to make them a bit older, that'd be grand. Also, would make some relationships in that game a little less problematic. but yes, let me let me be old.
speaker-1: Just older. Don't want to be like, you know, seventy or whatever, but just something that feels a little bit more representative of of of where we are in the world. I think for me it's like don't be afraid to put things that are ugly in. because like we were saying about like wrinkles and cellulite and aging and and stretch marks and scars and We all have things that we probably don't like about our body, but seeing those represented in games makes it feel more normal and more appreciated because it's not the things that you're gonna see celebrated in movies, I don't think, because it's not ever gonna be or or other media generally, like maybe it's easier in books, but like video games have that unique ability to make you feel reflected in a way that nothing else can. So it needs to kind of include the things that we feel self-conscious about because otherwise it just becomes a perpetual like, yeah, a almost like a youth simulator, or beauty simulator in a way that I don't think is actually constructive for kind of mental health or just how du how diverse we all are. Like I think that would be my my one thing. So it's okay to be a bit wibbly around the edges. And have scars and stretch marks and all the things that we don't like because that's just part being a human being, basically.
speaker-2: Think for me, again, I'm very focused on the plus size thing, so I do apologize. but for me it's
speaker-1: Important.
speaker-2: it is important, yeah. I think because very quick backstory. I have hypothyroidism, which is like an illness that kind of affect changes your body. So it's it's always the older I've gotten and the more I have to deal with it, the more I I think about it, especially in what we write about and and games. But what I find interesting is when there is plus size options that a lot of the time there there's not an ability to have like fat roles. Like not all plus size people are shaped the same. This usually it's like you're big, or your stomach's still flat, and I'm like, ha, I wish. I would like to have like honestly, let me have my bingo wings in a character. Let me let me yeah, let me have these bingo wings. Yeah, exactly. Because yeah, it is you know, it's like again when you watch movies and like, yeah, a plus size person, but then it's still like an idealized version of what they think a plus size person should look like and things are a lot very flat in areas where a lot of people don't have those areas. so yeah, I want give me let me have a fat roll slider, because I actually think that would be cool. As so long as the clothes that the character wears wouldn't then hide them. 'Cause you know, but yeah.
speaker-1: Or to only be exclusively crop tops.
speaker-2: Yes, yes, no, no, no, no, no.
speaker-1: like that too because like I think Heather and I have always talked about like both of us are quite tall and quite broad shouldered and like that always feels like again like I think I mentioned it before but like you can either be tall and skinny but it's like I'm I don't ever feel like my actual body shape is reflected in in games. It's always just like well I'm I've never been lanky ever in my entire life. Like even when I was like pretty slim like I just like it's I've just never been a kind of traditional feminine shape. Someone once called me Amazonian and that was my favourite thing I've ever heard in their life. Don't think I quite live up to that, but I think the kind of yeah, tall and broadness is not something that's always kind of ticked off in in yeah, the way the character creation is built. Sorry, Heather, I jumped in.
speaker-0: I completely agree with you. I felt like an alien growing up because I really was just like I felt like I was the only one that was kind of tall and and also wide, like bored. and you know, it still gets to me sometimes now. So when you see people in media that kind of look a bit like you, you're like, maybe I'm not so weird, maybe I'm not so alone. And that's the whole thing with character creation. I hope developers keep consulting with as many different players as possible to real to see like what features they could add to make people feel seam. because I've I've probably said this like twice now, but the smallest thing can make all the difference. You put in like an option to have a a scar or a cleft lip or whatever it is, and then suddenly someone's like, my goodness, I mean I'm yeah, I'm here and they've seen me and and it's okay to look like I do.
speaker-2: 'Cause how come we can have like look at all these mage staffs and all these big fantasy things. Give me like a hearing aid. Let me have a little fantasy hearing aid, things like that. Why? That that wouldn't take you out because there's magic. Magic's you know, you can do anything in these worlds. Just let me have a little too. Yeah.
speaker-1: fun with it. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as it is in real life. It's s if it's a fantasy game, make a cool fantasy version of a hearing aid and like make people feel like included but in a way that feels appropriate for the world as well. So yeah. Yeah. It's the most creative medium in the whole world. Let's let's make it feel creative in humanity as well. well hopefully that's been a good celebration of of character creation. There are really good character creations out there. we start at the top with with positives for a change rather than the negative. But let us know what your favourite character creations are, please, because we are always looking for more diverse ways of representing humanity in video games. And join us next week for another amazing chat about women in canes. Thank you so much. Say bye everyone. Bye.
