When Giftedness Outpaces Character | Chuck DeGroat

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Martha: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a
conversation about church leadership, fresh
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Martha: ideas, and the future of the church.
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Martha: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
Today Loren Richmond Jr.
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Martha: is in conversation with Chuck DeGroat. Chuck
is a professor of pastoral care and
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Martha: Christian spirituality at Western Theological
Seminary in Holland, Michigan, where he
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Martha: also serves as founding executive director of
the Clinical Mental Health Counseling
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Martha: Program. He is a licensed therapist,
spiritual director, author, retreat leader,
and
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Martha: founder of the Soul Care Collaborative, a
network of practitioners.
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Martha: offering spiritually attuned and
trauma-informed care.
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Martha: As a therapist, he specializes in navigating
issues of abuse and trauma, pastoral and
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Martha: leadership health, as well as doubt and dark
nights on the faith journey.
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Martha: He and his team also facilitate five-day soul
care intensives.
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Martha: He trains clergy in handling issues of abuse
and trauma and conducts pastor planter
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Martha: assessments. Before transitioning to training
pastors, Chuck served as a pastor and
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Martha: counseling center director in Orlando and San
Francisco.
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Martha: He and his wife Sarah have two married
daughters.
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Martha: A reminder before we start today's
conversation, please take a moment to
subscribe to
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Martha: the podcast, leave a review, and share Future
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Martha: Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future
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Martha: Shoot us an email at Loren at
ResonateMediapro.com with comments.
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Martha: Comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes.
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Martha: Your support and voice mean a lot to us in
making this independent podcast possible.
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Loren: Hey, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
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Loren: This is Loren Richmond Jr., and I'm glad to
be welcoming today Chuck DeGroat to the
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Loren: show. Hey, thanks for being here.
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Chuck: Thanks, Loren. Good to be back.
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Loren: Yeah, so you've been on the show before.
You're welcome to share briefly just a little
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Loren: bit about yourself, your faith background,
where you're at today.
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Chuck: Yeah. Well, I'm I'm currently at Western
Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan,
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Chuck: and we were just talking offline about how
it's known these days in part for the
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Chuck: Eugene Peterson Center for Christian
Imagination.
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Chuck: But I was a pastor in San Francisco before
that, Orlando, Florida before that.
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Chuck: I've been a therapist for for for for a long
time now, twenty five years or more.
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Chuck: and so I've kind of lived this this this
life, this hyphenated life as Eugene Peterson
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Chuck: once called it. He called himself a pre
psychologist.
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Chuck: You know, I've been able to kind of live that
being the the therapist, the therapist,
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Chuck: the pastor and the professor, who also gets
to do some writing.
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Chuck: and I guess that's what we're talking about
too.
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Loren: Yeah, yeah, we will be. Share if you would
just about any kind of spiritual practice
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Loren: or something you find meaningful that's kept
helping you stay grounded today these
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Loren: days.
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Chuck: Wow, that's a good question. Well, f for
years I've had a contemplative prayer
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Chuck: practice and that's a oftentimes a midday
practice of at least a half an hour or so of
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Chuck: silence and non-distraction and that that
that of course is a form of prayer, but it's
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Chuck: also j just a form of presence and rest. In
solitude as well.
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Loren: I appreciate the reminder about the
non-distractions.
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Loren: I'm reading this book on constraints. I
picked up from the local library, and it was
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Loren: just a reminder how much we th we think that
multitasking is a thing.
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Loren: so this morning when I was working on some
podcast material prepping, I just like
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Loren: threw my phone away. I'm like, put the f you
know, it it is amazing how things like a
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Loren: phone, 'Cause I like I recognize this myself.
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Loren: Like even just a phone being present there
makes me want to grab it, pick it up, and
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Loren: I'm scrolling mindlessly before I even know
it.
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Chuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah,
that's the way it goes nowadays.
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Chuck: And and it feels like i you know, w we we can
be habituated into this state of
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Chuck: inattention, right? This state of distraction
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Loren: Mm-hmm.
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Chuck: where where we're just pulled in the these
different directions.
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Chuck: That's why it's so important to well pay it
pay attention to what we pay attention to,
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Chuck: right? Is what we always say. For me, that
question in Genesis chapter three, where
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Chuck: are you, is so important because at
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: any time of the day that could that could
stop me in my tracks and I could just sort
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Chuck: of be awakened to the reality that I'm not
quite here right now.
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Loren: Yeah. Yeah, it reminds me of your last book,
which highly recommend for folks.
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Loren: And that
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Chuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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Loren: was such good such good content and reminders
there.
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Loren: This is making me think of like a really hard
question right off the bat that I sort
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Loren: of want to ask you. And I can't remember
where I heard this, but I was listening to
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Loren: something else recently and it in the the
idea that like there's so much content and
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Loren: information available to us, especially as as
ministry leaders.
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Loren: And I don't think like all that content
information is is healthy or or helpful
maybe.
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Loren: But also like it it can be it can be seen as
a point of privilege to say like I'm
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Loren: gonna to shut myself off from some things.
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Chuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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Loren: How do you when you're coaching or or working
with pastors and ministry leaders, like
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Loren: 'cause I mean, like one could say like Chuck,
thirty minutes, like wow, that is so
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Loren: privileged to just cut yourself off from the
world for thirty minutes.
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Chuck: Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
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Chuck: Yeah, absolutely. I mean well, I mean, none
of us can give our attention fully to all
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Chuck: the things in any given day,
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: right? And and obviously it's more complex
nowadays with with our access.
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Chuck: I mean, I didn't grow up in a world where we
had access, right?
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Chuck: I mean we'd watch the nightly news and we'd
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Loren: Right. Yeah.
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Chuck: find out what was going on, but then there
was twenty four hour news and we thought,
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Chuck: well now we're you know, we're in it. It'll
never get worse than this, you know.
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Chuck: And now we've got we've got our phones with
notifications at any time of the day, at
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Chuck: any point, you know, social media, all the
things.
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Chuck: I it's always striking to me that, you know,
Jesus, I mean, if I were the Trinity kind
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Chuck: of thinking about well, how to do this most
effectively, like if we're gonna Jesus is
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Chuck: gonna become incarnate and engage in public
ministry in the world.
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Chuck: Let's let's let's do that in a big chunk,
like fifty years.
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Chuck: You know, let's make
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Loren: Mm-hmm.
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Chuck: sure we use that time effectively. And and
yet we've got three years and lots of time
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Chuck: where, you know, he could be out ministering,
but he goes and prays.
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Chuck: And
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Loren: Mm-hmm.
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Chuck: lot lots of people that he passes by on the
way that he could have healed.
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Chuck: And
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: it's just striking to me that, you know, we
We're limited and we've got to remember
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Chuck: that. That goes back to Genesis chapter
three, too.
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Chuck: We're dust, and to dust we shall return,
right?
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Chuck: And in in our limitations, there's only so
much we can do.
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Chuck: I'm a therapist, I'm a professor, I'm a
writer.
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Chuck: I'm I'm engaged in people's lives in a
variety of different ways.
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Chuck: And and I think you are too. And at some
point we've got to be able to say it's time
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Chuck: to turn on the Yankees game and exhale,
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: right? Because I can't hold
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Loren: I I never exhale during those games, so I
increase anxiety.
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Chuck: Yeah, okay, there you go. That's fair. That's
fair.
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Chuck: Like we were not we were not designed to cr
to to hold the weight of the world.
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: and if you do try to do that, well you're
probably gonna end up in my office talking
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Chuck: about burnout or exhaustion or something like
that.
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Loren: Yeah. Well I I appreciate you engaging me a a
a challenging question right off the
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Loren: bat. We're here to
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: talk about Chuck's new book, Who You're
Becoming, the slow and courageous work of
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Loren: cultivating character in a narcissistic age.
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Loren: Do you wanna just first talk about like why
you wanted to write this book?
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Loren: What were your goals for it?
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Chuck: Yeah. Well, I'll just put it really simply.
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Chuck: I I have been alongside a lot of people
talking about spiritual and emotional health
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Chuck: and practices for a long, long time now. my
first job in the late 90s as a pastor was
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Chuck: pastor of spiritual formation. And I I've led
people on retreats and done all the
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Chuck: things, right? And yet I think a few more
than a few years ago, I started wondering
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Chuck: with all of this, with all these resources
for spiritual and emotional health.
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Chuck: are we becoming a people who are loving,
joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, gentle, you
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Chuck: know, faithful? You know what I'm getting at
there, right?
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Chuck: I mean, are we are we becoming a people that
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Loren: Yeah, fruits of the spirit.
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Chuck: look like the fruits of the spirit? Are we
becoming a people that look like Jesus?
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Chuck: Am I becoming that person with all the
resources for health?
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Chuck: and and obviously, I mean I just wrote a book
on on how to do the deep work around
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Chuck: your story and around your body and nervous
system.
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Chuck: All this work that I'm committed to and we're
committed to, that's one of the big
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Chuck: questions of the book is what's the tell us?
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Chuck: You know, who are we becoming, right? That's
the title.
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Chuck: And so that really gets to the heart of it.
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Chuck: And it goes in lots of different directions,
you know.
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Chuck: This is not simply a book on the fruits of
the spirit.
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Chuck: I mean, we I I I go down many different roads
in the book, but that's kind of the
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Chuck: general for me as I was wrestling with it,
that was kind of what I was bringing to the
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Chuck: book.
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Loren: Yeah. Well, I gotta say, like most books I
just burn through and read very fast.
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Loren: Your book was such where I really found
myself I mean, you certainly build in in each
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Loren: the end of each chapter
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Chuck: Mm.
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Loren: pauses and and ways to kind of take in the
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Chuck: Mm-hmm.
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Loren: content and practice. Like I'm thinking that
you had a lot of kind of like body stuff
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Loren: touching your chest if I remember. So like I
f like
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Chuck: Uh-huh, uhhuh. Sloy done.
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Loren: I say this honestly, like this is one of the
few books where I I actually stopped
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Loren: would read a chapter at a time because the
content was so good.
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Loren: So I
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Chuck: Mm. Mm. Mm.
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Loren: wanna recommend that for listeners. So
something certainly I noticed throughout the
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Loren: book was IFS or internal as I understood it,
internal family systems sort of is a a
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Loren: subcharacter, if you will, throughout the
book.
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Loren: Do you want to just briefly explain IFS and
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: what that's about?
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Chuck: Yeah, yeah. I mean the the technical name of
a kind of a counseling modality is
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Chuck: internal family systems, but it it sometimes
goes by the name parts work.
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Chuck: There are other people who've engaged parts
work.
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Chuck: And to really simplify it, because this is in
the spiritual formation tradition too.
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Chuck: In fact you know, I I often point people to
the work of a woman named Elizabeth
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Chuck: O'Connor who's writing in the late sixties.
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Chuck: She wrote a book called Our Many Cells. It
was a spiritual retreat for her church in
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Chuck: Washington, DC, where she was talking about
our the different parts of us, right?
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Chuck: The simple way of maybe explaining it is when
you wake up in the morning, there may be
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Chuck: a part of you that wants to get out of bed
and get get to work, you know, is ready to
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Chuck: open your inbox and and get productive. And
there may be another part of you that's
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Chuck: like, let's pull the covers over the head. I
do not want to get out of bed.
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Chuck: There may be yet another part of you pulling
you to, but I've got my daughter's
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Chuck: recital and I I really don't want to miss
that.
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Chuck: And yet I've got the, you know, the thing at
work.
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Chuck: And so at as we begin to pay attention to our
lives, what we realize is what St.
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Chuck: Augustine realized, what, 15, 16, 1700 years
ago, that we're fragmented, that we're
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Chuck: pulled in lots
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Loren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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Chuck: of different directions. And so it's really a
matter of paying attention to where
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Chuck: we're pulled. And as Augustine says,
Returning to ourselves.
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Chuck: that's easier said than done, right? And
particularly
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Loren: Right.
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Chuck: when as we we understand trauma when parts of
us are kind of frozen in the past, you
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Chuck: know, hard things happen.
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Loren: Mm-hmm.
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Chuck: And it's like as as a guy told me just
recently, you know, he he was leading a a
staff
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Chuck: meeting for his church and he said I felt
like I was I was twelve years old again
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Chuck: being bullied on the playground.
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Loren: Mm.
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Chuck: yeah, there are there are things like that
that we've gotta be aware of, but They're
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Chuck: it's just simply an invitation to to pay
attention.
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
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Chuck: And to return to ourselves.
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Loren: Yeah. I I find it I don't wanna get you know,
I don't wanna make this all about you
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Loren: counseling me here, but it's good stuff.
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Chuck: Ha ha ha.
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Loren: two thoughts I had as I was reading the book,
and may we'll take this in parts here,
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Loren: but one is that I think so often churches
assume gift no, we assume that woundedness
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Loren: is giftings. Like we're acting so often I
think it seems like What people are doing is
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Loren: is praised and encouraged. And I I sort of
just wonder how often it's actually people
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Loren: acting out of their woundedness.
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Chuck: yeah.
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Loren: and and and similarly, like, how do churches
promote healthy spirituality when that
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Loren: means asking some people to step back and
others to step forward?
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Loren: So yeah, I I've given you a lot there. Maybe
talk through
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: one at a time.
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Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. I mean i it it's a complicated
question and it reminds me it's always
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Chuck: helpful to think about it less in the
abstract and more more in in terms of actual
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Chuck: people. I mean, I remember years ago when I
was a pastor and there was an incredibly
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Chuck: gifted audio engineer in our church and he
made us all sound better.
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Chuck: He made it's a church of about eight hundred
to thousand people and and big enough
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Chuck: where you have you know, you have a worship
team and You're singing your 1990s songs
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Chuck: or whatever back in the day. And but I
remember you know, he was he's being because
of
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Chuck: his work, his volunteer work, this wasn't his
his day job, he was spending a lot of
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Chuck: time at work and then at the church. And I I
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: encountered his young son one day, and his
son was really kind of dejected that dad
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Chuck: was again busy with church stuff. And
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Loren: Mm.
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Chuck: so I had a conversation with this guy and
about hey, you're you're clearly really
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Chuck: gifted, but This is pulling you away from
what what matters.
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Chuck: And that's hard to say because you make us
all sound better.
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Chuck: that that's where this gets complex, right?
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Chuck: Because clearly,
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: clearly there are people who get up in front
and lead in a variety of different ways,
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Chuck: whether it's in public life or ministry or
churches or whatever it might be, where
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Chuck: their character hasn't quite caught up and
where their wounds are maybe invisible and
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Chuck: yet apparent. You know, if you're in You
know, if you're in regular relationship with
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Chuck: them. And so it's I think it's a matter, I
mean, there there are different ways we're
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Chuck: we're approaching this. One is we're just
these days we're just triaging situations
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Chuck: where, you know, where character hasn't
caught up and some of these leaders are
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Chuck: getting in trouble. But we we might want to
just kind of take a step back and ask more
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Chuck: about formation. what would it look like to
take character seriously?
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Chuck: What would it look like to think through what
it means to become people who are people
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Chuck: of love and joy and peace and patience and
kindness and how how is that kind of
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Chuck: character cultivated. And that's kinda kinda
what I'm trying to do, you know, in this
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Chuck: writing is to to think about that, to step
back and ask, how does that happen?
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Chuck: at a at that formational level.
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Loren: Yeah, yeah, because I can see that,
especially with your example, you know,
imagining
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Loren: that this this man, this father, might feel a
be somewhat of a perfectionist, if you
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Loren: will, perhaps, and
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: just feeling this need to like I have to. And
again, it
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Chuck: Yes.
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Loren: soft sometimes in church settings it's like,
this guy is so gifted and he's so
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Loren: committed and he's so
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Chuck: Mm-hmm.
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Loren: and it's it's hard to be like, Hey, maybe you
should step back, right?
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Chuck: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard. And and
you know, I mean, I think I think
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Chuck: especially today where churches feel like
they're in competition with others, you
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Chuck: know, and I I
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: know we were in the shadow of a megachurch
back then and you know, so like audio
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Chuck: quality was really important to the senior
pastor at the time, you know, and and he
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Chuck: could get real spicy with with you know the A
V people and the audio engineers and if
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Chuck: if they didn't do their jobs well. Well, we
we were I was I was engaging a
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Chuck: conversation of this man's character. I was
engaging a conversation of his spiritual
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Chuck: formation. I think what church oughta be
about, right?
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Chuck: I was asking him to step back for the sake of
his own deepening life in Jesus, his
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Chuck: family. And yet I I think it's really easy to
say, No, no, no, no, no, no.
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Chuck: We need him. Like we can't do
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: for the kingdom work to be done, you know, we
need
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: so and so in that role. And so it can get
really confusing.
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Chuck: And I'm I'm not b because I've done this as a
pastor and I know you've been in the
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Chuck: trenches. I mean, these are we're not just
talking abstractly here.
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Chuck: We know we know these are really complicated
conversations to have as teams, you know,
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Chuck: with boards and elders and so forth.
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Loren: Yeah. Yeah, they are complicated. certainly,
I mean I mean, certainly I don't want to
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Loren: belabor this point, but it just seems like
there's so many stories we hear
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Chuck: Mm-hmm.
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Loren: of folks getting burned out of church and
sort of needing to take a break just because
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Loren: there's not that like, hey, maybe it's time
for you to take a step back.
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Loren: certainly I I don't want someone to take a
step back from participation in Christian
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Loren: worship or their spiritual practices, but
also like
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Chuck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
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Loren: Maybe they don't need to, like you said for
your example of someone being at the
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Loren: church working full time and then being at
church another twenty, thirty, forty hours
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Loren: a
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Chuck: Yeah. Yeah.
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Loren: week.
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Chuck: Yeah. And maybe, you know, maybe a a pastor
who is proud or arrogant or even
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Chuck: narcissistic doesn't need to be on the
platform.
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Chuck: I mean, this is what Gregory
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: the Great was saying in the sixth century to
to pastors and leaders back then as Pope,
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Chuck: you know, Pope Gregory the Great. character
matters.
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Chuck: And you know, of course he used language of
vainglory, not narcissism, but it I mean
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Chuck: essentially was saying, you know, if if if if
your reputation, if your approval, I
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Chuck: mean the very things that we're talking about
today matters more than who you are, who
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Chuck: you're becoming, that's a problem. And so
yeah, maybe we do need to step away.
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Chuck: But yeah, that it makes us a little itchy,
like will the kingdom go forth without my
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Chuck: incredible prophetic voice, you know, leading
from the pulpit.
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Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you point the other side of
that dynamic of someone who's extremely
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Loren: gifted, but may not have the character, you
know, and for a church to be able to say,
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Loren: like, hey, let's let's style that back for
now.
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Loren: that's a hard decision, but I think an
important one.
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Loren: I think related to this this question or to
this topic is this idea of sin or
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Loren: understanding sin as b behavior management,
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Chuck: Mm-hmm.
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Loren: where you can probably get at this more the
connection more distinctly than I'm going
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Loren: to right here.
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: But I think like someone who's like to use
that stereotypical, infamous, narcissistic
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Loren: leader who you've certainly written about in
the past and talked about, like there's
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Loren: this idea that like if we can control their
behavior and and sort of keep them in
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Loren: line, you know, and I think what you argue
certainly in the past and and still here
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Loren: too, that if you're not if you're just
looking at it as like behavioral management,
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Loren: that's not gonna solve the the deeper issues.
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Chuck: Yeah, no, it doesn't. And that's how we often
treat it.
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Chuck: And and particularly where there are
significant things like moral failure.
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Chuck: It's you know, let's send you off on a
sabbatical for six to eight weeks or send you
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Chuck: to a therapist for six sessions and get that
fixed, you know.
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Chuck: And and and and Yeah, we we don't we've sort
of fail to recognize that it's rooted in
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Chuck: deeper patterns and habits of the heart that
need to be recognized, right?
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Chuck: And so I always I was when I'm sort of
engaging this work individually or within
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Chuck: systems, I always want to move from behavior
down to patterns and ask what's this look
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Chuck: like over time? Now there there are one off
things that happen.
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Chuck: You know, I give the example of a a colleague
at one point that you know had a a a bad
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Chuck: moment in a staff meeting and we all knew
that there was more going on in his life and
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Chuck: family, right? There are one
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Loren: Mm-hmm.
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Chuck: off things, but when you when you take a look
beneath the waterline, you might say,
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Chuck: and and begin to analyze it at level patterns
or habits, what you realize is that this
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Chuck: isn't this didn't start yesterday. And
likely, you know, this is showing up not not
as
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Chuck: a one-off, but more as a byproduct of one's
formation.
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Chuck: And so we've
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: got to look at it more from the level of
formation, story, relationship.
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Chuck: and and if we look at it from that
perspective, at least in the work that I do,
the
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Chuck: the turnaround time isn't as quick, you know,
because
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: if these habits were formed over the course
of years, it may take that reformation,
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Chuck: that transformation may take years as well.
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Loren: It's interesting it's interesting you talk
about that understanding of problematic
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Loren: behavior, sinful behavior as a one-off versus
like systemic, right?
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Loren: Of their lack of formational character. Like,
you know, if someone's going through
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: a a crisis, like they're not gonna be their
best self.
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Loren: Like
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: I'm thinking of I just read this book on
Canadian youth hockey culture and it was
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Loren: quite just horrific, right? Of these young
men's approaches.
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Loren: And it seems like story after story was like
when they misbehaved, it was like, this
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Loren: is this is just a one off. This is just a one
off.
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Loren: Yet the the author goes through painstakingly
detailed effort to show like this is
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Loren: more systemic rot. So
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: what like I don't know, have you even thought
like what's that about or why do we
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Loren: always want to just assume it's a one off
rather than looking at the systemic rot?
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Chuck: Yeah. Well You know, individually it's
easier, culturally, systemically it's easier,
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Chuck: right? they're just harder questions that you
have to face personally.
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Chuck: If if you're if you're gonna see this as a
habit, this is the way I've been treating
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Chuck: my spouse over the course of years, versus
like, I just had a bad day.
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Chuck: but all but also, you know, if you're a
church and we're looking at a a culture, you
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Chuck: know, of of bullying or harm or whatever it
might be.
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Chuck: you know, you it's it's like there that's
risky to to take a look at that.
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Chuck: It's it's risky to look at the story. I mean,
I r I remember when I was working with
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Chuck: the church in the Chicago suburbs that I
wasn't working for them.
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Chuck: I I was consulting with them and They had a
long history of of moving to the outskirts
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Chuck: of town. I mean, they had started as kind of
an urban church and they had moved
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Chuck: further and further out, and yet they were
trying to be a church that valued diversity
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Chuck: and multicultural worship and things like
that.
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Chuck: And you know, I remember the I I remember the
looks in the room when I I was like,
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Chuck: Yeah, we I I think we actually I I don't I
don't think the problem is your vision
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Chuck: statement here, you know. I actually think we
need to take a look at your history and
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Chuck: the the reality that
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Loren: Yeah.
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Chuck: you You've made two significant moves to this
very large campus now on a cornfield.
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Chuck: And yet, you know, you're like, why aren't we
more diverse?
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Chuck: And how come God, you know? and and they're
like, no, no, no, no, no.
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Chuck: We would that's not what we were paying you
for.
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Chuck: We just wanted to kind of tweak our our
language, our vision statements and mission
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Chuck: statements, those kinds of things, right? So
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Loren: Mm. Mm-hmm.
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Chuck: I just think it's hard. It's hard for me to
look at patterns in my life, you know, and
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Chuck: say, goodness. So how did that impact my my
wife, my two daughters?
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: Yeah. Well, this is where I think doing that
work, which I'm sure you try to do with
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Loren: that church, this idea of a calm non
nonjudgmental presence, I imagine, in those
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Loren: conversations. This
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Chuck: Yeah.
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Loren: is something I really appreciate in work
working as a chaplain.
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Loren: It's j I mean, it's just amazing for one how
coming in in that sort of non judgmental
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Loren: presence, calm presence can help at People
access parts of themselves.
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Loren: Do you want to talk more about that?
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Chuck: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. A hundred percent. I
mean I I think any anyone who has observed
402
00:26:09,159 --> 00:26:16,489
Chuck: systems led by reactive leaders, anxious
leaders, know know that like the system takes
403
00:26:16,489 --> 00:26:23,733
Chuck: on the anxiety of the leader, right? and by
virtue of these wonderful mirror neurons,
404
00:26:23,733 --> 00:26:30,977
Chuck: you know, and and our resonance circuitry in
the brain, you know, we we we pick up on
405
00:26:30,977 --> 00:26:35,153
Chuck: the the energy, let's just say, of of the
leader.
406
00:26:35,153 --> 00:26:42,313
Chuck: when the leader is anxious. But by the same
token, we we we pick up on the calm of a
407
00:26:42,313 --> 00:26:47,426
Chuck: non-anxious leader. We we sort of borrow
their groundedness.
408
00:26:47,426 --> 00:26:54,415
Chuck: And it's been interesting to me over the
years in in there have been a a number of
409
00:26:54,415 --> 00:26:58,676
Chuck: times where I I I've led in situations of
anxiety.
410
00:26:58,676 --> 00:27:05,835
Chuck: There I'm thinking of suicides and I'm
thinking of political events and I'm thinking
411
00:27:05,835 --> 00:27:12,909
Chuck: of really hard church situations and where
I've I've had to step into a room and my
412
00:27:12,909 --> 00:27:17,000
Chuck: groundedness kind of allowed others to go,
okay.
413
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,000
Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
414
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,759
Chuck: make it all better. Doesn't take away what
just happened or what's happening
415
00:27:23,759 --> 00:27:28,330
Chuck: currently, but I can breathe. And so this is
the work that we need to do.
416
00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:33,152
Chuck: This is the last chapter of the book, in
fact, a chapter where I get into the
417
00:27:33,152 --> 00:27:36,095
Chuck: differentiating or it's really I build to
that.
418
00:27:36,095 --> 00:27:39,038
Chuck: So that work is being done throughout the
book.
419
00:27:39,038 --> 00:27:44,235
Chuck: And as you know, at the end of each chapter
and the practices, but it culminates in
420
00:27:44,235 --> 00:27:49,558
Chuck: the last chapter where we talk about
differentiated leadership, this capacity to
stay
421
00:27:49,558 --> 00:27:54,567
Chuck: deeply connected to who we are, where we are,
what we believe, the ground of our
422
00:27:54,567 --> 00:27:59,639
Chuck: being, our own limits, and and also move
toward others, build a bridge to others,
423
00:27:59,639 --> 00:28:04,586
Chuck: connect to others. And that's really a a a
learned some people call it a skill.
424
00:28:04,586 --> 00:28:09,471
Chuck: I think it's more of an art. I borrow the
language of Gregory the Great again.
425
00:28:09,471 --> 00:28:14,856
Chuck: Care of Souls is the art of arts because I
think it's something that is more than more
426
00:28:14,856 --> 00:28:17,736
Chuck: than a skill that's developed in a short
time.
427
00:28:17,736 --> 00:28:22,934
Chuck: It's more something that you're apprenticed
into by people who demonstrate and live
428
00:28:22,934 --> 00:28:25,000
Chuck: and model non-anxious leadership.
429
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:31,406
Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Certainly I'm thinking of as
we're recording us just last night, I worked
430
00:28:31,406 --> 00:28:37,736
Loren: and was awoken, you know, at just past
midnight f t for a family whose loved one had
431
00:28:37,736 --> 00:28:43,991
Loren: experienced a heart attack. And it is
amazing, like first of all for me, part of my
432
00:28:43,991 --> 00:28:50,397
Loren: challenge is getting like my brain w working
right at being awoken from a from a deep
433
00:28:50,397 --> 00:28:51,000
Loren: sleep.
434
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,000
Chuck: Yeah yeah.
435
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,000
Loren: But but Once I'm able to get my brain
functioning, it is
436
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:56,050
Chuck: Mm-hmm.
437
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:02,404
Loren: amazing like how just being a calm presence
can just bring down a family and then they
438
00:29:02,404 --> 00:29:03,000
Loren: can be
439
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,000
Chuck: Mm. Mm.
440
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,870
Loren: like, Okay, this is the next step we need to
do.
441
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:08,000
Loren: And like you said, it doesn't
442
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:08,050
Chuck: Mm.
443
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,212
Loren: like make any th everything better. Like
their loved one is still in critical care and
444
00:29:13,212 --> 00:29:14,000
Loren: there's still
445
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:14,050
Chuck: Yeah.
446
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,508
Loren: like challenges t to be faced ahead. but it
it just seems so interesting because I I
447
00:29:19,508 --> 00:29:25,082
Loren: really appreciate this idea or what you
shared about the the art of arts and it being
448
00:29:25,082 --> 00:29:30,721
Loren: a a practice 'cause it seems like right now,
like we're in a cultural context where it
449
00:29:30,721 --> 00:29:34,000
Loren: just seems like the move is escalation
constantly.
450
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:40,881
Chuck: Hm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I think we we're
living in a time where there is this c sort
451
00:29:40,881 --> 00:29:47,843
Chuck: of collective trauma and physiologically
we're living in this collective state of what
452
00:29:47,843 --> 00:29:51,000
Chuck: I call sympathetic storm. This state of
453
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:51,050
Loren: Mm-hmm.
454
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,002
Chuck: reactivity, this state of anxiety, this state
of of fight or flight.
455
00:29:56,002 --> 00:30:02,182
Chuck: and we we see it in the way we engage. We see
it in the polarization in our culture.
456
00:30:02,182 --> 00:30:08,361
Chuck: one of the things we know about being locked
in that sympathetic state, that more at
457
00:30:08,361 --> 00:30:14,687
Chuck: that state that as as many of your listeners
probably know is sort of energized by our
458
00:30:14,687 --> 00:30:20,572
Chuck: amygdala is is that You don't have a whole
lot of capacity for curiosity in that
459
00:30:20,572 --> 00:30:23,000
Chuck: state. You don't have a whole lot
460
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:23,050
Loren: Yeah.
461
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,545
Chuck: of capacity for calm in that state. it's
really hard to take a deep inhale and exhale
462
00:30:28,545 --> 00:30:32,720
Chuck: and speak from the ground of your being in
that state, you know?
463
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,070
Chuck: And so, and and you've got to do a bit of
work to get back to the what I call this
464
00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:41,397
Chuck: home state, this grounded and differentiated
state.
465
00:30:41,397 --> 00:30:45,507
Chuck: And so I think w what I noticed for me years
ago in leadership.
466
00:30:45,507 --> 00:30:48,377
Chuck: I was a therapist and a pastor at this time.
467
00:30:48,377 --> 00:30:53,922
Chuck: I I needed to be hospitalized to be awakened
to my own chronic sympathetic storm, the
468
00:30:53,922 --> 00:30:58,293
Chuck: reality that I was living in a hurricane and
I didn't even know it.
469
00:30:58,293 --> 00:31:03,447
Chuck: That been if you would have asked me I would
have said I I'm not super anxious.
470
00:31:03,447 --> 00:31:09,057
Chuck: I mean, I got things I'm anxious about in my
life, but underneath there's a big storm.
471
00:31:09,057 --> 00:31:13,885
Chuck: And so yeah, I think what that's part of what
we need to pay attention to.
472
00:31:13,885 --> 00:31:19,495
Chuck: And it like when I do this work, you probably
know I do these five-day intensives with
473
00:31:19,495 --> 00:31:22,692
Chuck: a a lot of leaders. Five days, three hours a
day.
474
00:31:22,692 --> 00:31:28,302
Chuck: I've got a team that does them. And you know,
that's what we're paying attention to is
475
00:31:28,302 --> 00:31:33,912
Chuck: you may not sense that there's a lot of
anxiety, but beneath the water line, there
may
476
00:31:33,912 --> 00:31:36,000
Chuck: be a hurricane down there. Yeah.
477
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:42,000
Loren: Yeah, yeah. You talked about those different
the fold and the flight.
478
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,000
Chuck: Yeah.
479
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,526
Loren: certainly the the fight or flight is the most
common way we think about it.
480
00:31:46,526 --> 00:31:50,427
Loren: I I wanna ask you here, like hopefully this
doesn't get too personal for for us and
481
00:31:50,427 --> 00:31:53,624
Loren: for our listeners, but like I'll try to ask
this somewhat generally.
482
00:31:53,624 --> 00:31:54,000
Loren: Like
483
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,000
Chuck: Yeah.
484
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,066
Loren: I've recognized like my my pattern is fold
and and you're welcome to kind of share
485
00:31:59,066 --> 00:32:01,000
Loren: those the the different Fs if you want.
486
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,000
Chuck: Mm-hmm.
487
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:09,400
Loren: But Like f how can I say this in a way that's
not too specific, I guess.
488
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,000
Loren: Like
489
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,000
Chuck: Uh-huh.
490
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:18,277
Loren: certain certain cultural moments have made it
for me especially more difficult to feel
491
00:32:18,277 --> 00:32:22,000
Loren: like I can like be my true self rather than
to fold
492
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:23,000
Chuck: Yeah.
493
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,000
Loren: or the language I use is to disappear. And i
in
494
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:26,050
Chuck: Yeah.
495
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,000
Loren: in some context it's like I'm encouraged to
disappear when it's
496
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:30,050
Chuck: Yeah.
497
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,100
Loren: like for me, healthy functioning is actually
to not disappear.
498
00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:34,000
Loren: And certainly like
499
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,000
Chuck: Yes. Yeah.
500
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,333
Loren: we all people encounter those different
contexts where like and this sort of gets
back
501
00:32:41,333 --> 00:32:44,000
Loren: to the question I started at the beginning,
502
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:44,050
Chuck: Mm.
503
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,788
Loren: where the healthy move for us is to do the
opposite of what the cultural context is
504
00:32:48,788 --> 00:32:50,000
Loren: encouraging us to do.
505
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:56,875
Chuck: Mm. Yeah, yeah. so Just to take it a step
back for a moment, you know, you're getting
506
00:32:56,875 --> 00:33:01,000
Chuck: into what I call the six Fs. I talked about
this in
507
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:01,050
Loren: Yeah.
508
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,626
Chuck: Healing Whats with Dan and I I talk about it
here fight, flight, fawn, find.
509
00:33:05,626 --> 00:33:10,861
Chuck: Those are the Fs of the sympathetic nervous
system when we're more in that storm mode,
510
00:33:10,861 --> 00:33:15,000
Chuck: when things are churning, and then freeze and
fold, which is more of
511
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,000
Loren: Yeah.
512
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:22,767
Chuck: it's not quite this simple, but more more our
what we call our parasympathetic nervous
513
00:33:22,767 --> 00:33:28,400
Chuck: system or dorsal system, and and it's where
we maybe maybe start to feel overwhelmed
514
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,497
Chuck: and we pull back, pull away for me, pull the
covers over my head and want to
515
00:33:33,497 --> 00:33:38,996
Chuck: disappear, which I I can relate to Loren. So
yeah, well I I think you know I It it
516
00:33:38,996 --> 00:33:42,349
Chuck: feels like when we discover kind of where we
live.
517
00:33:42,349 --> 00:33:45,903
Chuck: I was talking to someone who lives in a lot
of fight.
518
00:33:45,903 --> 00:33:49,055
Chuck: We think that the answer is the exact
opposite.
519
00:33:49,055 --> 00:33:51,000
Chuck: You know, I just need to stop
520
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,000
Loren: Mm-hmm.
521
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,448
Chuck: doing that. Or if we're living in more fold,
I just need to get more engaged.
522
00:33:55,448 --> 00:33:59,209
Chuck: When the invitation is to recognize how we
got here in the first place, like why our
523
00:33:59,209 --> 00:34:01,000
Chuck: nervous systems are living in this place
524
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,000
Loren: Hmm. Mm-hmm.
525
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:10,121
Chuck: of of coping, this place of survival, whether
it's more sympathetically oriented and
526
00:34:10,121 --> 00:34:16,389
Chuck: mobilized or whether it's more
parasympathetically oriented and and feels a
little bit
527
00:34:16,389 --> 00:34:21,417
Chuck: more like shutdown. I I want to get clear on
like how did I get here?
528
00:34:21,417 --> 00:34:22,000
Chuck: but then
529
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:22,050
Loren: Yeah.
530
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:28,069
Chuck: how do I get back to this place that I call
home, this place of calm and groundedness.
531
00:34:28,069 --> 00:34:33,784
Chuck: So it's not the opposite. It's more how do I
get to a place of groundedness, to a
532
00:34:33,784 --> 00:34:39,712
Chuck: place of calm, and then from that place
decide what what what might it look like for
533
00:34:39,712 --> 00:34:45,710
Chuck: if I live in more of a fold orientation to
enter in more courageously or if I live in
534
00:34:45,710 --> 00:34:51,214
Chuck: a fight orientation more often than not to r
relax that and you know yet still
535
00:34:51,214 --> 00:34:57,000
Chuck: participate. that's more the dynamic rather
than like going to the opposite of it.
536
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:02,000
Loren: Yeah, that's really helpful. I don't know if
you follow the work of Mike Foster.
537
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,000
Chuck: that name doesn't ring a bell, no.
538
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:10,198
Loren: But he has this he has I'm trying to remember
what his he calls them scrambles and he
539
00:35:10,198 --> 00:35:15,594
Loren: he talks about language of his language he
uses is like a primal question.
540
00:35:15,594 --> 00:35:21,135
Loren: so he always thinks of like what's the what's
the question you're really at?
541
00:35:21,135 --> 00:35:25,000
Loren: Like you're s he calls it the scramble, which
is sort
542
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:25,050
Chuck: Okay.
543
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,467
Loren: of similar and like what's the the the
underlying question of that scramble you're
544
00:35:30,467 --> 00:35:31,000
Loren: asking?
545
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:31,050
Chuck: Hmm. Yeah.
546
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,000
Loren: so I think it's it's fist with what you're
saying, so that's that's helpful.
547
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,333
Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. And and it I mean that ought to
lead us to some curiosity, but also to
548
00:35:38,333 --> 00:35:40,000
Chuck: some self compassion. Like I think people
549
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,000
Loren: Yeah. Yes.
550
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:47,781
Chuck: live in perpetual fight, you know, are often
exhausted of the fight, you know, and
551
00:35:47,781 --> 00:35:53,703
Chuck: they they don't want to back out of, you
know, their work of maybe pursuing works of
552
00:35:53,703 --> 00:35:59,484
Chuck: justice in the world, but they certainly
wanna do that from a more grounded place.
553
00:35:59,484 --> 00:36:05,054
Chuck: when I was living in a bit more fold, I was
calling it rest and it wasn't rest.
554
00:36:05,054 --> 00:36:11,046
Chuck: It was it was disappearance, you know. And so
I had to recognize, I'm my body's in an
555
00:36:11,046 --> 00:36:16,545
Chuck: overwhelmed state. I am exhausted, I've been
pushing too hard, and I'm I'm not
556
00:36:16,545 --> 00:36:20,000
Chuck: actually resting, I'm dissociating. and my
family
557
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,000
Loren: Hmm.
558
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,436
Chuck: sees it experiences. They're like, Dad, where
are you?
559
00:36:23,436 --> 00:36:26,504
Chuck: I mean they they used to say, Dad, you're
here, but you're not here.
560
00:36:26,504 --> 00:36:27,000
Chuck: And I think
561
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,000
Loren: Yeah.
562
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,000
Chuck: probably a many of us have had experiences
like that.
563
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,026
Loren: Yeah. let's take one let me give you one more
question before we move on to closing
564
00:36:35,026 --> 00:36:39,052
Loren: questions. There's this line in your book and
I can't really remember what context,
565
00:36:39,052 --> 00:36:41,769
Loren: but it just has stuck with me. What we behold
we become.
566
00:36:41,769 --> 00:36:44,000
Loren: You you spend so much time in the book
talking
567
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,000
Chuck: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
568
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:52,822
Loren: about formation and practice, and I I feel
like nothing encapsulates that as well as
569
00:36:52,822 --> 00:36:54,000
Loren: those five words.
570
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,859
Chuck: Yeah. Well this is this is a chapter on
attention.
571
00:36:57,859 --> 00:37:04,343
Chuck: And and it's a paradoxical chapter in the
sense that we live in an attention-seeking
572
00:37:04,343 --> 00:37:10,517
Chuck: culture, right? Where it's like see me, see
me, see me with my Facebook post, my
573
00:37:10,517 --> 00:37:16,924
Chuck: Instagram post, my TikTok, and my you know,
YouTube channel, my all the things, you
574
00:37:16,924 --> 00:37:23,253
Chuck: know, like me, see me, approve of me. and
yet, paradoxically, we are created to be
575
00:37:23,253 --> 00:37:29,891
Chuck: seen and known by God, right? Like I and
that's that's virtuous attention-seeking in a
576
00:37:29,891 --> 00:37:33,673
Chuck: sense, to be seen and Known at the deepest
level.
577
00:37:33,673 --> 00:37:40,079
Chuck: And so what we behold, we become takes on a
bit of a different shape when you think
578
00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:46,717
Chuck: about it that way. If our attention is given
to scrolling, to distraction, to approval
579
00:37:46,717 --> 00:37:53,200
Chuck: seeking. I think of my work with narcissism
to the of and the mere hungry leader who
580
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:59,606
Chuck: uses his audience for approval, right? That
will shape us in a particular way, that
581
00:37:59,606 --> 00:38:05,858
Chuck: shapes character. And so we've got to be
mindful of of how that's shaping us over
582
00:38:05,858 --> 00:38:12,033
Chuck: time. but but but the the paradox is that if
we find our way to this place of of
583
00:38:12,033 --> 00:38:18,285
Chuck: surrender where we open ourselves in
receptivity to the the the attention of God.
584
00:38:18,285 --> 00:38:23,225
Chuck: This gets back to my last book and that
question, where are you?
585
00:38:23,225 --> 00:38:25,000
Chuck: You know, the God who's
586
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,000
Loren: Mm-hmm.
587
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,000
Chuck: walking in the garden in the cool of the day
looking for you, looking for us.
588
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,000
Loren: Mm-hmm.
589
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,898
Chuck: And we recognize that we're already seen and
known.
590
00:38:33,898 --> 00:38:39,401
Chuck: that as Augustine said, God is more near to
us than we are to ourselves.
591
00:38:39,401 --> 00:38:42,000
Chuck: We can rest, you know, it we don't
592
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,000
Loren: Yeah.
593
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,781
Chuck: have to, as Augustine said, chase after it
anymore, you know, and and and so I guess
594
00:38:48,781 --> 00:38:54,699
Chuck: the the the point behind what we behold we
become is that we're shaped by what we give
595
00:38:54,699 --> 00:39:00,480
Chuck: our attention to. And I for me in on
retreats, I'll invite people to ask
themselves,
596
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:06,398
Chuck: to interrogate their their practices, their,
you know, what they do throughout the day
597
00:39:06,398 --> 00:39:09,908
Chuck: to see where where are they giving their
attention.
598
00:39:09,908 --> 00:39:15,000
Chuck: And it's very revelatory when people come
back and share with one another.
599
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,533
Loren: Yeah. Yeah. I mean s screen time, right?
Screen time has to be like one of the most
600
00:39:20,533 --> 00:39:26,267
Loren: obvious examples of that and something that I
I find harrowing when I think about like
601
00:39:26,267 --> 00:39:31,733
Loren: how much time I'm staring at my phone. I I'm
thinking certainly too about what you
602
00:39:31,733 --> 00:39:34,867
Loren: said. Certainly you've interact with him a
lot.
603
00:39:34,867 --> 00:39:40,333
Loren: Steve Cuss and his idea of being human sized,
like when we know we're seen, right?
604
00:39:40,333 --> 00:39:44,000
Loren: Like we don't feel like we need to make
ourselves seen.
605
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:51,000
Chuck: Mm. I think that's exactly it. I think
something rests within when you know that you
606
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:58,167
Chuck: are seen and known and and you know I I
There's a line in there that goes back to
some
607
00:39:58,167 --> 00:40:05,167
Chuck: work that I did with a guy years ago where it
was the line was something like, If if
608
00:40:05,167 --> 00:40:09,000
Chuck: if I'm not shining, I will disappear. And
that
609
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,000
Loren: Hm.
610
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,518
Chuck: struck me as really big. Like this was
someone who was pastoring, and I had asked
him
611
00:40:14,518 --> 00:40:19,090
Chuck: to step out of that role and step away from
like just public engagement because he was
612
00:40:19,090 --> 00:40:23,661
Chuck: so addicted to it. And yet within a few
months he had started a podcast, you know,
and
613
00:40:23,661 --> 00:40:26,000
Chuck: I was like, What's going on, buddy? And that
614
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,000
Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
615
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:29,548
Chuck: was it. If I if I'm not shining, I'll
disappear.
616
00:40:29,548 --> 00:40:31,000
Chuck: If I'm not showing up, who am I? And I think,
617
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,000
Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
618
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,928
Chuck: you know, if we're honest with ourselves,
there's something true true about that, you
619
00:40:38,928 --> 00:40:43,739
Chuck: know, like I I I have to ask myself
continually because I'm in this role where
I'm,
620
00:40:43,739 --> 00:40:48,725
Chuck: you know, as a writer, you are you're
required to do marketing for yourself, you
know,
621
00:40:48,725 --> 00:40:52,493
Chuck: you're required to get the word out to go on
podcasts with Loren.
622
00:40:52,493 --> 00:40:54,000
Chuck: What's that? You're in it?
623
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:59,677
Loren: Yeah. I'm literally in that right now. I'm in
the I'm I have a book out as we're
624
00:40:59,677 --> 00:41:04,432
Loren: recording this so ten days ago and I'm in
that self promotion game.
625
00:41:04,432 --> 00:41:05,000
Loren: Yeah.
626
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,444
Chuck: I mean, you know what it's like, right? And
so, will anyone care?
627
00:41:09,444 --> 00:41:12,385
Chuck: Will anyone see me? Will it will it matter?
628
00:41:12,385 --> 00:41:13,000
Chuck: You know?
629
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,000
Loren: Yeah.
630
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:19,000
Chuck: And so each of us is invited to do our own
work around that.
631
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:24,528
Loren: Well, some closing questions here. we asked
this question and I I suppose I'll ask
632
00:41:24,528 --> 00:41:30,326
Loren: this like if you're a Pope for the day, so
thinking about you're in charge of pastors,
633
00:41:30,326 --> 00:41:34,775
Loren: like I'm gonna ask this specifically. You're
in charge of pastors.
634
00:41:34,775 --> 00:41:39,225
Loren: What are you telling those what do you want
those pastors to know?
635
00:41:39,225 --> 00:41:43,000
Loren: What are you telling them? That sort of thing
for a day.
636
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,000
Chuck: If I'm in charge of pastors for a day,
637
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,000
Loren: Yeah.
638
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,867
Chuck: we might just sit in silence the whole day.
639
00:41:49,867 --> 00:41:55,600
Chuck: I might not do much talking at all. I you
know, I'm inviting them to get curious about
640
00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:01,133
Chuck: their own formation, their own patterns, the
story, the stories that they're living
641
00:42:01,133 --> 00:42:06,867
Chuck: in. And what's happening beneath the surface,
in what I call the autonomic engine, but
642
00:42:06,867 --> 00:42:10,467
Chuck: under the hood, so to speak, at a
physiological level.
643
00:42:10,467 --> 00:42:16,000
Chuck: if they're living in as many pastors are,
chronic storm, or if if as many of us do,
644
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,467
Chuck: they they're being pulled into the fog of
overwhelm.
645
00:42:19,467 --> 00:42:25,000
Chuck: when I have opportunities, and I was just in
Queens, New York last weekend with a a
646
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,733
Chuck: bunch of pastors, but I have opportunities to
to speak on these things.
647
00:42:29,733 --> 00:42:35,067
Chuck: Yeah, it's inevitable that there are going to
be really important conversations.
648
00:42:35,067 --> 00:42:40,667
Chuck: And then I'll have conversations offline with
them who will come to me and say, hey,
649
00:42:40,667 --> 00:42:43,000
Chuck: that's exactly where I am. And I am
650
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,000
Loren: Hmm. Wow.
651
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,724
Chuck: I'm not sure what to do because it feels like
if I step out of my role, fill in the
652
00:42:50,724 --> 00:42:53,000
Chuck: blank, something will fall apart.
653
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,000
Loren: Right.
654
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,934
Chuck: and It it feels kind of threatening at some
existential level, some physiological
655
00:42:58,934 --> 00:43:03,807
Chuck: level, like y you know, I I I can't afford to
step away and do a week intensive.
656
00:43:03,807 --> 00:43:06,000
Chuck: I can't afford to take a sabbatical.
657
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:11,000
Loren: Yeah. Who am I if I'm not actively pastoring?
658
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,887
Chuck: Exactly, right? And so you're getting at like
core, core questions.
659
00:43:14,887 --> 00:43:19,818
Chuck: And so maybe those that gets it w that Mike
Foster that you're talking about, some of
660
00:43:19,818 --> 00:43:24,807
Chuck: those primal questions with that scramble.
But yeah, those core questions that I think
661
00:43:24,807 --> 00:43:29,738
Chuck: we all have to wrestle with. I mean, I I'm
fifty-six now, but I I think I've had like
662
00:43:29,738 --> 00:43:32,000
Chuck: several midlife crises at this point to
663
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,000
Loren: Ha ha ha.
664
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,636
Chuck: to where it I I've I've wondered about my
vocation.
665
00:43:37,636 --> 00:43:40,000
Chuck: I've wondered if I matter,
666
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:40,050
Loren: Mm-hmm.
667
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:45,887
Chuck: I wondered should I call it quits? I mean you
it gets it can get really dark in those
668
00:43:45,887 --> 00:43:51,844
Chuck: places, right? And so I think I just hold
space for safe space for those pastors to be
669
00:43:51,844 --> 00:43:57,247
Chuck: honest with themselves and one another and
say, hey, you're not alone in this.
670
00:43:57,247 --> 00:44:02,996
Chuck: There are lots of us who actually wrestle
with these questions who who wonder these
671
00:44:02,996 --> 00:44:08,883
Chuck: things. And what if what if we begin to have
these conversations a little bit more so
672
00:44:08,883 --> 00:44:12,000
Chuck: that We weren't so lonely and maybe we didn't
673
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,000
Loren: Yeah.
674
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:18,478
Chuck: live with this kind of incessant drive, this
exhausting drive that is burning us all
675
00:44:18,478 --> 00:44:19,000
Chuck: out.
676
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:23,497
Loren: Yeah, well first of all, like I am not at all
thrilled to hear that you say I'm like I
677
00:44:23,497 --> 00:44:27,000
Loren: thought my one I could be one and done with
the midlife crisis, but
678
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,678
Chuck: One one midlife crisis near yeah, yeah,
right.
679
00:44:31,678 --> 00:44:33,000
Chuck: Yeah. I wish.
680
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,414
Loren: Whenever I talked to you, I remember I think
the first time I talked to you, you you
681
00:44:35,414 --> 00:44:37,080
Loren: named Teresa Vavila as your theologian who
you wanna meet.
682
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:38,000
Loren: Is that still it or does another
683
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:43,000
Chuck: Yep. Yeah. yeah.
684
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,000
Loren: come to mind?
685
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,877
Chuck: yeah. I mean I there are others. I I I yeah,
there are plenty of others.
686
00:44:47,877 --> 00:44:50,731
Chuck: But Saint Teresa, I've done a lot of work
around her.
687
00:44:50,731 --> 00:44:53,315
Chuck: I created a little film about her on my
website.
688
00:44:53,315 --> 00:44:57,569
Chuck: I think she's extraordinary. I call her my
favorite sixteenth century reformer.
689
00:44:57,569 --> 00:44:58,000
Chuck: Yeah.
690
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:05,000
Loren: Hm. what do you think history will remember
from our current time and place?
691
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:10,270
Chuck: You know, I I I think if it goes on another
five hundred years, they'll look back and
692
00:45:10,270 --> 00:45:15,477
Chuck: they'll they'll say, you know, every five
hundred years, as Phil Phyllis Tickle said
693
00:45:15,477 --> 00:45:20,747
Chuck: in in her book, The Great Emergence, there
are these massive reckonings, and that was
694
00:45:20,747 --> 00:45:26,078
Chuck: yet another reckoning within the church where
things had to where it had to go through
695
00:45:26,078 --> 00:45:31,348
Chuck: its dark night, where it had to where people
were talking about deconstruction, where
696
00:45:31,348 --> 00:45:36,679
Chuck: there were prophets stepping up to say hard
things, where where Christianity was being
697
00:45:36,679 --> 00:45:41,763
Chuck: conflated with empire and where you know pol
politics and you know and and religio
698
00:45:41,763 --> 00:45:46,908
Chuck: their major conversations of politics and
religion that that you know well it's not
699
00:45:46,908 --> 00:45:51,000
Chuck: the first time around right because we've
seen this before they'll
700
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,000
Loren: Right, right.
701
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:57,000
Chuck: say they did it again they had the benefit of
hindsight and history
702
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:57,050
Loren: Hmm.
703
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:03,337
Chuck: and they they did it again but this is what
rose out of the ashes you know this is the
704
00:46:03,337 --> 00:46:09,674
Chuck: new thing that you know when i AI won and the
machines took over this is what rose out
705
00:46:09,674 --> 00:46:11,000
Chuck: of the ashes right
706
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,000
Loren: boy. boy.
707
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,184
Chuck: Yeah, I just I just went there because that's
what we're talking about in the news
708
00:46:17,184 --> 00:46:18,000
Chuck: these days, right? So
709
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,000
Loren: Yeah. Well, what do you hope for the future
of Christianity?
710
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,747
Chuck: Hm. I I you know I think this it goes back to
the very beginning.
711
00:46:27,747 --> 00:46:34,820
Chuck: finding our way to this simpler path of of
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness.
712
00:46:34,820 --> 00:46:41,982
Chuck: that you know we'd we'd be caught by the
beauty of Philippians 2 again, Jesus who
713
00:46:41,982 --> 00:46:49,497
Chuck: being a very nature God did not consider
equality with God something to be grasped or
714
00:46:49,497 --> 00:46:51,000
Chuck: exploited, right?
715
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:56,000
Loren: Yeah. Yeah.
716
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,968
Chuck: And that that would radically change not just
the way we think, but our our character,
717
00:47:01,968 --> 00:47:07,590
Chuck: the way we show up as pastors and leaders, it
would lead to humility, self-giving
718
00:47:07,590 --> 00:47:13,558
Chuck: love, suffering servanthood, you know. it
would change our politics, our ecclesiology.
719
00:47:13,558 --> 00:47:18,000
Chuck: That's that's what I would hope for. That's
just a little thing.
720
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:23,172
Loren: Yeah. Well the book is Who You're Becoming,
the slow and courageous work of
721
00:47:23,172 --> 00:47:26,207
Loren: cultivating character in a narcissistic age.
722
00:47:26,207 --> 00:47:30,966
Loren: Obviously this book is available, I imagine,
wherever books are sold.
723
00:47:30,966 --> 00:47:36,000
Loren: How can folks connect with you and any other
resources you want to share?
724
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,875
Chuck: Yeah, I mean I'm on Substack at Sitwith
Chuck.
725
00:47:38,875 --> 00:47:41,750
Chuck: I'm on I I've got a website,
ChuckDeGroat.net.
726
00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:47,062
Chuck: I I have something called the Soul Care
Collaborative where you know, I've got a team
727
00:47:47,062 --> 00:47:52,250
Chuck: of practitioners that do the work that I do
and I'm on all the channel social media
728
00:47:52,250 --> 00:47:56,000
Chuck: channels except for TikTok. I don't think
I'll ever do that.
729
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,000
Chuck: So yeah. I've got a YouTube page
730
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,000
Loren: Fair enough.
731
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:04,508
Chuck: now. I finally started doing YouTube videos
because someone convinced me I'm getting
732
00:48:04,508 --> 00:48:07,000
Chuck: old enough to start doing that now. So
733
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,000
Loren: Well, I really appreciate your time and
conversation.
734
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:09,050
Chuck: Yeah.
735
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:14,000
Loren: We always leave folks with a word of peace,
so may God's peace be with you.
736
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,000
Chuck: And also with you, Loren