Matt: The Evolving Traditions podcast is for general information, educational, and reflective purposes only. It's not intended as a substitute for personalized medical, psychological, legal, therapeutic, or other professional advice. We welcome a wide range of guests and perspectives, and our intention is always to spark thought and respectful discussion, never to offend. In today's episode we talk about events around the two thousand and five London bombings and other policing events that include homicide and traffic accidents. If you're worried about the effects that any of these subjects may have on you, please feel free to skip this week's episode. For guidance specific to your own life, please consult a qualified professional. Hello, friends, truth seekers, skeptics, and the quietly curious, you're listening to the Evolving Traditions podcast, where we ruminate on the wisdom we've inherited and consider how well it has served us. More interestingly, we dip our toes into how it may have held us back and perhaps how some of those ideas continue to shape or limit our lives today. I'm Matt Dyktynski and I'm here with my co host and wife, Tanaya Ti'en Hello, my darling.
Tanaya: Hello everyone. Yes, today's conversation is about one of those lives that makes you stop and think, hang on, how many different lifetimes can one person live in a single body? Because our guest today has moved through worlds that most of us can only imagine occupying in one life, let alone several. Professional sport, the army, counterterrorism, homicide investigation, first response, transport infrastructure, local government and now acting across stage and screen.
Matt: And just in case people wondering, am I in the dog box? Have I done something wrong? I'm separated from you because I have the man f or the Matt flu today. So
Tanaya: It's
Matt: I apologize for my my voice. So, our guest today, I first met Phil Bedworth, and those of you who are on the video can see his lovely face down there. When we were both hired as actors in a national tour of the Diary of Anne Frank. And my first thoughts were, this is gonna be easy, he's a great bloke, he's a good actor. I always feel very comfortable with people from the north of England because my mum Judy was from that area, It's gonna be great fun. And all that was true, but very quickly the onion that is Phil Bedworth kept peeling away layers of unexpected stories and other chapters lived. So, like a lot of talented actors here in Perth, we need other income streams and Phil's a you know, project manager of transport in infrastructure. Okay, that's a you know, that's a big job. then I also find out that he's very active in local government. Indeed, he's a counselor on one of the local shires here in Perth. and then there were more stories from this kid from the north playing rugby league, signing up for the army as a paratrooper, no less, dropped into action into real conflict zones. And I'm just sitting across our dressing table with my mouth open at times, listening to these stories, cursing the Tanoi that's calling us to stage. Because I want to hear more of these stories. And they did continue. This young man, Phil Bedworth, then becomes a cop with the Met, the famous London Metropolitan Police, where he encountered some awful moments head on as a first responder. And I'm thinking primarily of the attacks on London in two thousand and five when Trains, a bus and and many, many lives were destroyed by suicide bombers. Phil worked in counterterrorism, which I don't even know if we can talk about. And then Phil Bedworth does what Phil Bedworth does and decides, you know what, they need cops in Western Australia. Never wanted to hesitate. Out with the family to Perth. Works, homicide and traffic accident investigation, and then thinks, you know what? I think I want to be an actor.
Tanaya: And then we've got that. Okay, and then just repeat
Matt: And Phil, being the Phil that I've got to know, leaps into this new chapter with the same gusto. Not only is he has he become highly regarded
Tanaya: the back.
Matt: amongst our peer group for his work, he's also really proactive. he does community theater. When he's not directing or acting in community theater, he's one of the people who goes around and adjudicates community theatre. So, Phil, mate Welcome. You know I love you, but your appetite for life is just way too hard for me to live up to.
Phil: thank you. And thanks for having me on your wonderful podcast. Yeah, it's a full life and it does take all my time
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: management skills to fit it all in, but I manage it somehow.
Tanaya: Now, Phil, before we get into all of the twists and turns of your life, we always like to begin with the same question for our guests because it often gives us little insights about the road that they've travelled. So we're very curious, what's the first thing that you remember your parents teaching you about the world when you were young?
Phil: Well, for the earliest portion of my life, I was raised by my mum, single parent, until she met my stepdad when I was about 10. So it was primarily down to her, have to say, that kind of formed me into this person you see before you today. But the biggest thing that I always carry, and I'm now passing on to my kids, is in life, I always think if it's not going to be you, then who? and that's not just related for me, not just relating to success. It's related to rolling your sleeves up, getting stuck in, you know, when you see something isn't as you perhaps think it should be or something's broken, rather than be the person that goes, no, someone needs to do something about that. She taught me zip it. get stuck in and make the change. I suppose that's what I can blame for the various detours my life's taken over the years.
Matt: I mean you've talked a lot about your beautiful mum and what a strong influence she clearly was on you. what was it like growing up in a place like West Yorkshire as a young fella? What was the kind of expectations of a young man in that area and was your mum able to, guide you through all of that?
Phil: she absolutely did. And I mean, I was born into a very working class part of West Yorkshire, which was based around heavy industry. The coal mine was still functioning quite heavily in the town. so we had glass factories and the chemical factory and that sort of thing. was picturesque. It was all rolling hills as well.
Matt: Sounds beautiful.
Tanaya: So,
Phil: Seriously though, you could go a mile up the road and you would be in sort of like rolling meadows. It's
Matt: Yes.
Phil: quite the contrasting place. The expectation of a young man then was you go to school, you do as well as you probably can, which the bar was pretty low. You find a nice girl who can stand seeing you every morning. You get a job probably down the pit. And then you have kids, you get married, you get a mortgage and that's you.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: you work hard, you graft and you get your money, you go for your beers on the weekend and then you start all over again, control or delete on a Sunday and away you go again. That was the expectation. So, you know, that was, thanks to Margaret Thatcher and the Tory party for good or bad. those industries are currently not there and they weren't there when I... was coming to the end of my high school. But I do remember from being very young that my mum who came from that sort of background too, who could quite easily have gone down the same path and fallen into the same mentality. I remember her saying to me very young, when you grow up, you do really well at school, you go to university, you get yourself a good job and you go and see this world.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: Ironically, when I did that, she never forgave me, but
Matt: Ha ha ha ha.
Phil: you But that's my overriding memory of being a young man in West Yorkshire in the late 70s, going through the
Matt: Mm.
Phil: 80s. The expectation wasn't much. I remember an aunt of mine, thought I was the bravest person in the world when I left Yorkshire.
Matt: Yes, wow. Yeah.
Phil: It was that kind of mental, you could seriously, with one hand grenade, you could take out three generations of my family down one street, you know, it's that kind of place where the only time they leave is to go to Penny Doan for a fortnight.
Matt: Yes.
Phil: And, you know, and that's not me criticizing, that's a fact and they're all very happy, as am I. yeah, to answer your question in a really long sort of way, that was what was expected. That was the
Matt: Mm.
Phil: kind of the life I was born into.
Tanaya: I really love the sound of your mum. I love her philosophy. so, you you started out playing rugby league at a local professional club and then somehow found your way into the British Army, how on earth did that happen, that transition?
Phil: Yeah, I played for a club called Wakefield Trinity, which are not as good as NRL, unfortunately, but you he was a high standard for us.
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: And yeah, I got an injury and whilst I was recovering from the injury, I started ruminating on, what it was going to be like. mean, was gangbusters going to be professional sports star at the time. And that was the ambition. And I started looking at, where I was, this injury, was that going to have a long term effect? Obviously the the rehab and access to medical staff wasn't what it was back in the early 90s as it is today for professional players. So, it was a case of, do I continue down this? Am I good enough? Was also the question to get to where I need to get to, to make it happen for myself in such a short window. If I'm honest, I could probably have eeked a living out carrying on playing rugby
Matt: Hm.
Phil: as a journeyman. But I've never been one of those people satisfied with being below what I believe I can achieve. And I genuinely looked myself in the eye one day and just said, I don't think I've got that talent. I mean, I was playing at the time, a friend of mine was Jason Robinson, who ended up playing for England over here when Johnny Wilkinson nicked the World Cup off the Wallabies.
Matt: I remember it well.
Phil: Long time ago, was the only English triscorer that game was Jason. You know, I was looking at guys like him, I was playing against or with, and I was thinking, they just seem to have something different that I don't seem to possess. And so was at that time I made the call, know, rugby has up to that point and ever since has always been a great passion of mine. But I knew perhaps, reaching for the stars in the professional game wasn't, in the clouds for me. So I recovered from the injury and I was walking through Leeds town centre one day and I saw the military recruiting office. I was walking past that and there's pictures of guys skiing and windsurfing and all this kind of thing. So I walked in.
Matt: I mean, you and I both grew up in a time when the the biggest conflict that the British Army had had in those years was the Falkland War, the
Phil: Mm.
Matt: Falklands War. And so how was the army viewed for you in that part of life? Was it still a great adventure or was there a sense of hesitation that you might find yourself very quickly in, quite dangerous situations?
Phil: Yeah, it was a nice out for lads, I suppose, if they didn't have the academia or scholastic nature to get out of Yorkshire and the kind of working class upbringing. I suppose by then as well, if I'm honest, the culture around that was also changing. It wasn't quite open all hours anymore. University was becoming a lot more accessible for kids of my age and that sort of thing. So it was on the change. But overall, academic ability was low amongst my peer group. and I'm sure none of them will mind me saying that. So the army was seen as a way, as was the Navy and the Air Force, they were all seen as good ways out to get around and see the world. But you must remember at that time as well, the Northern Irish Troubles was still a very big thing.
Matt: Yes.
Phil: So a lot of parents were highly reluctant to sign up their kids to join the army as a 16 year old.
Matt: Yes.
Phil: 18 they couldn't stop you obviously, but they had to sign on the dotted line when you were 16. You know, no, no, no, but
Matt: Were you sixteen when when you joined? No, no, no.
Phil: it's more around answering your question in regards to, were people reluctant? I suppose the people wanting to join weren't reluctant, the parents having to sign them, even when they were 18 and they couldn't go, parents were still trying to talk. especially joining the army because
Matt: Yes.
Phil: that was a regular deployment for lads in the army was to go to across to Northern Ireland and become a regular target I suppose. So
Matt: Mm.
Phil: yeah, was a bit of both really Matt. was still seen as a great adventure but one that you know it wasn't peacetime for the Brits back then.
Matt: Mm, mm.
Tanaya: So how old were you Phil when you got into the army?
Phil: I was 18. I didn't need any parental involvement.
Tanaya: So, okay, so you so you you're 18, you you get
Phil: Mm.
Tanaya: into the army. so what do institutions like the army and police teach a person that civilian life often doesn't? And you know, and what do they also take from you or train out of you in in order to make you effective in those environments?
Phil: Sure, both careers, you gotta learn very quickly that no one's coming. You're in this life on your own, which sounds awful, but I took it as a huge positive to learn that about myself, that mommy and daddy are not around the corner. You have to figure things out for yourself. You have to be a grownup. You need to learn things fast. And that life. is tough, that life is a competition, that you're not going to get promoted just because you've got the best attendance. You have to have a certain extra bit of juice and je ne sais quoi about yourself to get that promotion. And it taught me very quickly not to stay still.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: Both lives have taught me not to stay still, not to assume I'm the finished article. because when you start, you know, I've often found that when I start feeling like that, someone or something comes along to kick me in the pants and show me that I'm not, so they taught me the benefit of feedback as well.
Matt: That's yeah, that's very interesting. and yeah, I have noticed that with you. You are you are very open to feedback and it doesn't you know, I'm someone who's so thin skinned that I have to almost take a deep breath before I listen to what someone's got to say about me. But you you you take it very openly and you turn it into a positive. I've witnessed that.
Phil: I certainly try. I'm not a perfect person and it's taken a lot of practice to not be thin-skinned as you say. Now I disagree with you there Matt, think a guy who's spent his entire life in the industry you've been in, know, in the public domain, you can't be thin-skinned, surely.
Matt: He
Phil: But yeah, yeah, I do. you know, so I really didn't get my head around it until I was probably in my late 20s. The value of it completely.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: When I was younger, I suppose if I'm truthful, I've probably taught it as a sports player as well. Every single professional sports person I've ever seen who operate at high level, any person actually, who operates at high levels, rarely pay attention to what they do well.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: It's almost like an aside. That's the outcome of all the hard work. What they zone in on is what they need to tweak and improve on.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: And I think I think they're the one percenters, aren't they? People who can do that. It took me too long to learn that, unfortunately, to make any meaningful success. but yeah, feedback, I love it. I accept it open heartedly. You know, I've had feedback that's meant to hurt me and I quickly discard that. Yeah. But when I ask for feedback and people give it, no matter how blunt, you know, I can tell they're giving it with the greatest of intent. Then you've got to listen. What do I know?
Matt: Yes, yes.
Tanaya: Yeah. Yeah, And so going back to that timeline, because you know, your timeline of events and career changes is so intriguing. You eventually became a detective with the Metropolitan Police in London, including work in counter-terrorism. Now for most people that world feels very distant, almost cinematic. So, how did you Find yourself there.
Phil: It was a steady progression. No one joins the cops as a detective. So I did my street pounding around East London in uniform, going to routine calls. I'll put it like that. I don't think there's anything routine in London, to be honest, especially in Hackney and places like that. So I did my time. And then, then, tacitly, they weren't allowed to say so officially. quality and fairness reasons, but you couldn't even dream of joining the detective branch, it's called here, CID back there. You could even dream of getting a secondment until you got at least five years service behind you. I did, you know, my time learning how to speak to people, getting punched in the face quite regularly because that was a skill I learnt late as well. You know, learning how to deal with people, read people, see them come in, you know, handle people, develop informants. you know, low level, but nonetheless, but develop informants and understanding the kind of villains you've got living in the area and what their particular ways of, conducting crimes are so that when a crime comes in, you can quickly go, I know who's done that, and all that takes time. and truthfully, I was never that ambitious to become a detective to start the kind of detectives I was bumping into, I found horribly arrogant and full of their own self-importance. And it kind of put me off the idea for a little while. And again, Glynis jumped in the back of my head and she said, if not you, then who? And I thought, well, yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: And I quickly realized that I had a particular interest in the investigation side of things. So I pursued that and then steadily worked my way sideways and ended up working in the counterterrorism unit.
Matt: Well I would love to ask you some questions about the counterterrorism unit. I'm not sure what you're able to answer or or not able to answer, but I'm just intrigued by you know, you've told me a few stories about seeing action as a paratrooper coming under fire. and you've alluded to some of the more violent parts of everyday life as a bobby do they call it are the Met Police Bobbies, yeah. a a Bobby,
Phil: Yeah.
Matt: pounding the pavement and getting attacked. are you someone who's drawn to that kind of edge, that kind of were you actually excited by that danger and potential fear?
Phil: Not consciously. I suppose it's hard to deny that given that that's what I've done. I suppose I'm not an adrenaline junkie in that sense, but I don't know how to take a backwards step when I think I'm in the right in terms of
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: physically. And again, I was often... had the mentality that, it's me, I've got to get these bad guys, it's my job,
Matt: Yes.
Phil: the reason I'm doing that is to be in that position. And, yeah, it's, it's not something I consciously get drawn to, but I go after it because if not me, then who's going to do it, and,
Matt: yeah.
Phil: and I hate letting bad things happen to good people.
Tanaya: I mean what on earth is it like to operate in situations where you're being shot at being undercover walking into a homicide responding to something like the London bombings and I believe as I think Matt might have touched upon before you were one of the first responders I mean what's it like that kind of stuff being your day to day?
Phil: At first it was very adrenaline filled obviously as you can imagine but you do get desensitized quite quickly. That being said, it's often afterwards that you sit down and you think bloody hell, that could have gone horribly wrong.
Matt: Yes.
Phil: You know, like car chases, for example, they seem fun when you're watching, the Fast and the Furious and in the moment, I wouldn't say they're fun. I'm just dialed in, know,
Matt: Mm.
Phil: and doing what I needed to do. But afterwards you sit down and go, bloody hell, that could have ended differently. So yeah, it's weird to say and I don't want it to sound trite or cliched, but. You kind of do just switch into this, into what the training teaches you. I suppose it's like, people who do martial arts, they do it so repetitively. They've gone through the four stages of training, haven't they? And they've
Matt: Mm.
Phil: arrived at what I was taught was unconsciously competent about doing things where like, you just do it. You don't need
Matt: Yes.
Phil: to, you just do. And ironically, that it was the unconscious competence that... made me realise I needed to leave the police.
Matt: Okay, yes. That's the very interesting because my next train of thought was that's amazing that people are so highly trained and so highly motivated to not question and we saw that with the the firefighters walking into the Twin Towers all those years ago too. This is just my
Phil: Mm.
Matt: job and I'm going to do it. But at some point the the curtains are closed and you're there on your own. And I'm assuming that people cope in many different ways. and how do those feelings arise? is it something that you've had to to process or you've been able to let it go?
Phil: I think for the most part I've been able to let it go. I think I'm either lucky or unlucky, it depends which way a psychologist would assess me I suppose, but I compartmentalize things quite easily and put them in boxes and forget about them. And again, I don't want to make that sound a good thing or a bad thing, it's just me. Because I've got plenty of friends who are struggling, after a long career. and I see what they're going through and it makes me wonder, am I almost sociopathic about things? I almost feel like I should be the same, feeling the same way. And then I just have to remind myself that we're all different people, we've all got different brains, we all deal with things differently. So there's been cases, there's been jobs I've been on and the London Bombings is one, every year on the anniversary, I do get a little bit of a lump in my throat thinking about it. because if I can just go off at a tangent about a positive on that one. I think on July the 6th, 2005, I was done with the human race. I was over humanity. I thought, we're all screwed. a bit like, you know, Batman Begins, you know, the League of Shadows needed to come to London. And they did. And but what they did was when the bombs happened and we did what we did and we came above surface again. I saw a stranger helping stranger.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: saw this massive, just all these people walking up Kingsland High Street on their own, because there was no transport, helping each other. And almost like what I imagine the Blitz spirit was like. And that evening, I remember sitting down and I had a good shed of tears, but that may have also been as a result of a snifter or two. know, thinking about that, and I remember thinking... In the worst circumstances, you find the best. And
Matt: Mm.
Phil: that's what I remember each anniversary now. And it does make me tear up. But it's not about
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: the negative side of it all. It's the good stuff that makes me tear up. The
Matt: Mm.
Phil: colleagues and the friends who were there on the day doing what they were doing and the struggles they now have. I think of them often. And it bonds you to these people that I'll probably never see again. Or if I was to fly back to London, I'd call them and... we got for a pint like it was only last week, you know? And
Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: they're the sort of emotions that come back to me now, the positive, the good stuff. But I remember at the time, and certain other jobs, especially working here at Major Crash as well, certain things did set me off a little every now and again, but I'm not immune to it.
Tanaya: I often think about, hardship and about the moments in my own life that have shaken me awake, near death and other high threat experiences, how they can strip life back to what really matters. they can make us more humble, discerning, more forgiving, more grateful, or on the other side of the scale. They can make us harder, more judgmental, more guarded. when you hear those two extremes, where would you place yourself in that mix? have all of those things made you harder, more guarded? Or do you find that, as you were describing just now, that more of that softness?
Phil: I you better ask my family that one.
Tanaya: Yeah.
Phil: I think all of the above. I think I'm all of the above. I can be incredibly intolerable of people based on my own expectations. I can also be softer and I can be more understanding of certain things. I think what I've learned as I've got older is that that's okay. under some total of my experiences. And
Matt: Mm.
Phil: as long as I recognize the negativity and handle it, then that can only be a good thing, So I think it's hard to fit in with any one of those boxes.
Tanaya: I was actually now you brought up family, ask your family about that and I was very curious about that. So, living with someone like yourself who has been through all of those things, What does that kind of temperament mean for the people who live with you? are you a dream to live with? Are you a nightmare to live with? I I mean I'm going right for the jugular here.
Phil: Absolutely, why not? I think in some aspects, I'm a nightmare. Well, I know I am. don't think I know. have, as I'm sure Matt will tell you, I'm incredibly, I don't want to say OCD because that would be paying a disrespect to people with that condition because I've never been diagnosed, but I'm fair. I'm very particular about. my things and how I like them to be and things in places and again I can blame my mum for this I do believe. so and
Tanaya: Yeah.
Phil: I live with a bunch of people who are not like that and that's where my expectation of them starts kicking in and that's where I have to check myself.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: So I suppose I'm a nightmare like that I mean and I'm also someone who when I've decided something needs to be done then I will do it and I'll do it now and
Matt: Mm.
Phil: I don't want to sit on the couch and leave it till later because it'll be nagging away at me and and I know that winds Jo up no end and she's like can't you just relax I can when it's done.
Tanaya: Matt, does that sound familiar?
Matt: Well, you know when I looked across at the dressing table at Phil's bits and pieces and how neatly they were put next to him, I said to him, We're never gonna make it as a couple, you and I.
Phil: That's true. Absolutely. I think in some other aspects, know, I can take credit as being a dream to live with, know, because
Matt: Yes,
Phil: I get stuff done. And,
Tanaya: Yeah.
Phil: know, I'm not one for, something needs doing, I do it, you know, I try to be a present dad as much as I can.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: etc, etc. But I think I think those questions are best answered objectively.
Matt: No, you're you're you're
Tanaya: Mm-hmm.
Matt: hopefully at a place that we're all at where we we're doing our best in this crazy game. We're aware we're aware of our own flaws and we try and
Phil: Mm.
Matt: check them when they're they're not
Phil: Yeah.
Matt: serving us. And I I don't think you can ask any more of a human being really.
Phil: Yeah, I agree. I agree. None of us are perfect, are we?
Matt: So let's move the the the timeline.
Tanaya: So we can get on like one.
Matt: at what point did you decide, you know what, I think it's time for a move? I I believe you told me that at one point Western Australia was canvassing people in UK, I think both for teachers and for police officers, and
Phil: Yeah.
Matt: you answered the call. How did that play out?
Phil: Yeah, I can't really remember how I came across it. But one day I was on the day off and my then wife and my oldest kids were at school. So was in the house alone and I think I might have been booking a holiday. I was on the internet and this advert popped up. police officers? Do you want to come and live in Western Australia? And up to that point, I would never have qualified for a visa on skills because the police was never regarded. on the list. And I started digging into it and I think, yeah, so I speared an email off, forgot about it. And about two weeks later, the reply came back, yeah, can you come down to Australia House in London for a cause by that time we were living back up in West Yorkshire, because I transferred back up there for about 12 months to open their regional counterterrorism units or up there. So I got an invite down to Australia House to do an interview. So I thought, well, this is probably an opportune moment to mention that I'd sent an email off. And so So yeah, I got nothing but positive vibes back. And it was a case of, if I'm honest, it was career suicide for me. I was in a good place, I was doing a lot of sexy covert stuff at the time. And then I looked out the window, it had been raining for pretty much nine months solid. And you know, these kids were ghostly white. And then I looked at the photos of Cottesloe Beach again. And I thought, yeah, we're gonna do it for them. and that sounds like I have regrets. I don't. It's just the reality of the situation. I was swapping. probably a really sexy career at the time for not such a sexy career. But I went into that eyes wide open and yeah, so we decided we'd move, we'd sell lock stock and everything and give it five years minimum. And that was in 2008. And here I am.
Tanaya: you know, you mentioned your kids a couple of times. And you've mentioned, you've given us a snippet into the OCD-ness
Phil: Yeah.
Tanaya: of your life. has becoming a father changed the way that you think about risk, duty, what it means to be responsible and has has parenthood softened you in any way or or maybe sharpened you in a different way?
Phil: Yeah, definitely. I can certainly understand how when you're watching Attenborough documentaries, how the female of the species are when they've got young. And pre becoming a dad, I was probably a lot more gung-ho, yeah. Probably a lot less dynamic risk accessible. so it certainly made me realize that there was more at stake and I had to think a little bit harder about doing things and You know oftentimes though in policing you you don't get the time to have to be able to think about things. So where I was planning operations and going through unknown doors and those sorts of things, whereas as a non-parent, I'd have probably just got my boot out, put that door through and gone for it. Whereas this time I'd be certainly assessing things in a little bit more detail.
Matt: I don't know how much of this you can talk about, but you've told me before about the moment that you you realised that you didn't want to do policing anymore. and I I don't know if that's something you're able to share with us because it had a profound effect on me when you told me.
Phil: Yeah, absolutely. I was working night shifts at Mirrabooka Detective's office. In CIB here, you only ever do one week of nights, probably twice a year, and there's only ever two detectives on duty. The idea is that if things happen, you hand them over for the day staff. So you just basically... keeping things running until the daytime stuff coming. So there's only two of us on duty. And we got called to a murder scene out in Balga somewhere. we did, we started going out there and primary responsibility for a murder scene in WA is taken by major crime. But the district detectives initially go and start the investigation. Anyway. So we went out, I did what I had to do, I was the senior officer, so I led the crime scene and we had the suspect in handcuffs and witnesses, rady, rady, rah, forensics were on the way, the scene was locked down. Did everything we had to do, major crime, arrived in their Versace suits and took over. And at which point your job is then to go back to the police station and write a report about what you'd done up to that point. And I'm writing away, I'm tapping away at the screen and I suddenly stop. And I said to my colleague, I said, have you ever driven anywhere where, you've got there and you know, you've got there safely, but you, for the life of you, can't remember the journey. You know, yeah. I said, that's how I feel about this murder scene. I know
Matt: Yes.
Phil: I've done a good job, but I don't remember any of it. And it was at that point where I went, I've got to go. I'm done. It's not got the same stuff for me anymore. If I can do that, then what's the point?
Matt: were you alarmed because you weren't experiencing it on an emotional level like you thought that you should? were you feeling that there was something wrong with you, that you were able to just turn off and dot the I's and cross the T's?
Phil: Yeah, yeah, I felt that my sharpness will start going if I'm doing things subconsciously.
Matt: Uh-huh.
Phil: but where's the sense of achievement in anything if you're just going through some motions?
Matt: Mm.
Phil: I'm not saying everything has to be a conscious thought, but there needs to be external stimuli to make you feel what you're doing. And if your heart's not racing a little bit every now and again, then what's the point?
Matt: Uh-huh.
Phil: And I'd been around, I'd done various roles in Waypol, I'd done various roles in the Met as well. And I knew, I just felt it to my marrow that the policing was done for me. And people have asked me ever since, do you regret leaving? And my answer has always been genuinely 100 % no.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: Because of that, I knew I needed a new intellectual challenge.
Tanaya: one line when I was reading through your bio, it really jumped out at me. and it was about the common fascination that you have with people. these seemingly different worlds of first response transport, now acting, which we'll get to in a moment. We haven't even touched upon that yet. That's another exciting layer to Phil Bedworth but what are the main things that you've learned about people in all of that compote of experience?
Phil: I'm going to have to quote Anne Frank now. I think in spite of everything, people are genuinely good at heart. I think
Matt: Nice.
Tanaya: sure.
Phil: There are some dreadful people out there who to their core are just self-centered. I mean, we see plenty of them in the White House at the moment, don't we? But
Matt: Yes.
Phil: you know, they're self-centered. They're in it for themselves. but the vast, vast majority of people I had to deal with as a cop. or just generally now, just flawed people with good intent. So I think, yeah, to answer your question, Tanaya I think genuinely, despite how jaded I can get from time to time, people are genuinely nice.
Matt: Mm, mm. I mean I
Tanaya: So you're more you're more hopeful about people. you have more hope about people than perhaps you may have done before moving through that career path.
Phil: Definitely, definitely. think it takes the experience to make you realize that and I think age as well. think you don't have to have lived the life I've lived to come to this conclusion. I just think as you get older, you realize, most people are just trying to get through this crazy life in whatever way they can. yeah, Most people are good and most people
Matt: Hm.
Phil: are just doing their best with what they've been given by the universe. if we take judgementalness out of everyone's character, I think the world could be quite a lot better.
Matt: Yeah, it could. now we will now move on to Phil Bedworth, the actor, because of course, that's how I know you and and got to know you, but was that a surprise for those that know and love you, or has that been something that you'd had on the back burner all your life? This professional
Tanaya: Yeah.
Matt: rugby player, army paratrooper. met police officer counterterrorism. I think I might tread the boards at the community
Phil: You
Matt: theatre. I mean was that a shock to people? And had that been something that had been burning within you the whole time?
Phil: Yes, it had. I did drama through high school and I did and predominantly because that's the subject that only girls chosen, particularly young lady in that group there who I quite fancied back then. But anyway, I found that I really enjoyed it and I really threw myself into it and I had a beautiful teacher, Miss Yvonne Fletcher. She was so supportive of me and believe it or not back then, I wonder what she's doing.
Tanaya: Shout out to Yvonne.
Phil: I'd love to hear from her. Up to that point, I was quite a shy young man, and quite unsure of myself. I think a lot of kids of that age are though, aren't they? So I took drama at high school, loved that. But again, the weight of expectation in a working class environment, it's like becoming a professional actor, is that a proper job, lad?
Matt: Yes, yes.
Phil: There's a lot of that going on. Not that I ever expressed an interest to pursue training with like, I don't know, RADA or whoever,
Matt: Mm, mm.
Phil: it wasn't on my agenda then. But yeah, I always loved it. I would have always been able to have done some amateur dramatics living in the UK as well. But my shifts and things just didn't allow it to happen.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: And then coming here, was the same. And... I suppose some of the roles I've done in the UK and here a little bit required a lot of improv in terms of the covert stuff. But I might have kept my skills up that way a little bit. But yeah, when I came here and eventually left and went into regular office hour work, I literally just pressed like on an audition notice on a Facebook page for Limelight Theatre up here for Sherlock Holmes because I'm a Holmes tragic. I love the books. I love the TV show. And I just press like and then I got a message on Facebook to say, would you like to come audition? was like, I've not done. Last thing I did was Fagin back in 1990 or whatever it was. So
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: she had come in and read for me. So I read as Holmes and she went, I'm sorry, Phil, you're not Sherlock Holmes. Well, you know, thanks for your time, Sid. But I do see you as Dr. Watson.
Matt: Uh-huh.
Phil: And I've never looked back and I was just bitten by the bug. then yeah, since that time I've thrown myself into it and I'm scratching a big itch that's been dormant in me for many years.
Matt: Hmm. I mean again forgive me if you can't talk about it, but you mentioned it then. as part of your covert stuff, we are talking about going undercover, right? So there can be no more higher stakes performance than something like that. I don't know how much of you that you can tell us, but was that something that gave you a great buzz?
Tanaya: So we to have more. I don't know if you that's what I was something that yeah people
Matt: And and you almost saw yourself as a great performer?
Tanaya: like and then
Phil: Yeah, yeah, I suppose I did looking back. And yeah, it is related to undercover. But you know, I never did the sort of undercover work for years and years and years like the deep cover people do.
Matt: Uh-huh.
Phil: I really didn't have the capability to do that and hats off to those people. the sort of short term stuff I did was, you know, in the run up to I don't whether you remember, Matt, when you lived in the UK, but every May day, the anti catalysts would congregate in Trafalgar Square and smash McDonald's windows. And one of the roles of mine was to stop showering and put my duffel coat back on and then try to get him one of those groups and just basically report back on where we're walking off to and ready, ready, ready. And I've been arrested a few times as part of that. And yeah, it requires performing because I'm no longer Phil Bedworth, like we do when we go on stage. We've got to leave that person off stage, haven't we?
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: You see, you'd leave that when you first deployed and you'd be this person. So it was a performing, it was performing throughout.
Matt: Mm mm, fascinating.
Tanaya: And you know, when I think of acting, I really see it as being of service in the world. There's something quite fulfilling about playing a part in in helping people navigate the ordinary challenges that shape daily lives. And I find that through the work I do in the yoga and the other classes that I teach throughout the week. Do you find this quieter form of service, I would say, the life of an actor is a much quieter form of service than some of the other roles you've done. Do you find it as fulfilling, more fulfilling? I imagine it is glamorous in ways, but the intensity is is different. Maybe the prestige.
Phil: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's no greater thrill for me than the look on people's faces when they've enjoyed what you've done. there is a lot of blood, sweat and tears goes into it as I'm sure you well know, Tanaya it's not something you just rock up and do. so to then see people who've spent good money coming to see you, spent an evening with you. just to be entirely engrossed in the show that everyone around you and you put on is an absolute wonderful privilege. that's why I do it as much as anything. It's great fun and you get a lot back. so yeah, I agree with you. I think it is a kind of service. No one wants to go out and see a crap show. So when you see that, you're making people happy, what can be better than that?
Matt: Mm.
Phil: I don't know whether you'd agree with that, Matt, or...
Matt: absolutely, mate. I mean, I I love the idea of being a a storyteller or a joke teller and and if I'm doing that in a stand up sense, all I want from them is to have a good night and have a good laugh. And if I'm getting that, I mean I do need the money, but that that fills my emotional cup for sure. and I do feel good about particularly as the world sometimes feels very serious and hard that I am able to use my skill set to give people an hour and a half off just talking about silly stuff. Yeah.
Phil: Yeah, yeah, and I feel the same way.
Tanaya: Yeah. Yeah. you've played roles like Harry Bright in Mamma Mia, and I was lucky enough to see you as Otto Frank in the diary of Anne Frank, which she did with Matt. Very different energies, very different emotional worlds. I had the privilege of living with Matt during that method acting that that he that he did during that time. what are roles like Otto Frank? You're amazing by the way, as as Otto Frank.
Phil: Thank you.
Tanaya: what do those kind of roles ask of you and and do you find it easy transforming from role role?
Phil: No, I don't find it easy. I'm a hardworking actor. I'm not particularly skilled, I don't think. So for me, it's all in the preparation and doing the hard yards before opening night. And it's also the team around me that give me a lot of what I need as well. like Harry Bright, for example, in Mamma Mia, it's at high tempo. And I was surrounded by a bunch of people that had more energy than I could ever hope to own myself. And
Matt: Yes.
Phil: that helped me get into that. And then when we did the Diary of Anne Frank, I was surrounded by these incredibly talented people who just had so many different ways of viewing it and what was going on in there. And again, as I was told as a kid, you've got two ears and one mouth for a reason. And I really employed that in the early runs. of the Diary of Anne Frank in the rehearsal room, I was probably pretty quiet. And it's just me imbibing the skills of the other people around me to help me get into that because, I don't naturally roll from role to role Sorry dreadful choice of words there. I don't go from role to role easily. I really have to grind it out, I suppose. Sorry.
Matt: do you get nervous? I mean, does the incredibly high caliber and dangerous things that you've done with your life mean that walking onto a stage is a breeze for you, or does that anxiety come from a different place that's just as powerful?
Phil: I wouldn't call it anxiety, for me it's an excitement, it's an anticipation, I want to get out there. The worst roles I could possibly have in any show is one where I come on scene three, because
Matt: Yes.
Phil: for the other two scenes I'm pacing backstage just
Matt: Yes.
Phil: waiting, whereas Otto was ideal for me.
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: So it's more anticipative energy that I get. And a lot like playing sport, know, I need that first touch of the ball or that first tackle to settle into it. Yeah, so I get incredibly excited going out there. It's about excitement and anticipation for me. And the buzz is still the same.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: The elevation of heart rate, the pupil dilation, all that stuff. I can still feel it going on regardless of what I'm into. Yeah, it's an appreciation of that's when I feel, I'm zinging at that point. I'm absolutely
Matt: Yes.
Phil: buzzing. And you walk out there and you start doing it and it's just, yeah, and then it feels natural, if that makes sense.
Matt: Brilliant. It does. It very much does. Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: I've never had a fear of people judging me and watching me.
Matt: Well, that's interesting.
Phil: Yeah, I often, I have to tell it to the kids now, my youngest, she gets quite anxious about performing in front of people. And I say, don't worry about those people because they're not up here doing what you're doing. So they don't have a right to be judgmental, and.
Matt: Phil, it took me I I still have that fear and it's probably the one thing and we're gonna ask you in a moment about what you would love to be able to say to your younger self and certainly for me it would be to go back and say stop caring what other people think because it's been my Achilles heel
Tanaya: Well asked people have that bottom you would build them. And so it would score if I
Phil: Mm.
Matt: and continues to be. I I really admire that. Yeah.
Phil: I didn't learn that young. It's experience that taught me that, think. It was not intrinsic.
Matt: Hmm. Hmm.
Tanaya: Before we do get to that question, I have another question for Phil. You've moved between careers, countries, industries, identities. What have you had to let go of internally in order to keep evolving? And what parts of yourself have remained constant through all of that?
Phil: I suppose what I've had to let go the most would be ego. Not that I had a massive one anyway, I'd like to think I didn't. But it was more about, worrying about the outcome and then what people would think of me if I didn't achieve the outcome.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: And I started, again, I had a wonderful person I worked with many years ago who told me, don't worry about the end result. just worry about putting one foot in front of the other till you get there. when that switch flicked in my head, I've got a lot easier. So that's the ego side of things is what I've had to let go and not worry. What's the other part of your question? Sorry, Tanaya
Tanaya: What's what's the thing that has not changed? What's been the constant, the sort of essence of you that has remained, I mean, I guess the question kind of moves into ethics and values and what have been the values? What have been the principles that have remained the same? Or that you've learned about yourself?
Phil: I suppose the major principle I've learned about myself is, that, I know I'm not perfect, but I didn't realize how imperfect I was until I started getting older. But the major principle I've always tried to carry through life ever since being a young man, actually, and I'm pretty proud of myself for having this from such a young age. Again, you can thank your parents, can't you? Is that, you know, treat everybody like they're your grandma. and how would you want someone to treat your grandma? And as long as you're dealing with them in that way, then you could be proud of yourself. there's nothing wrong with being nice. You could be hard, you could be nice.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: and I suppose from an ethics perspective, that would be the major thing I've kept. But we're on this planet to evolve in my opinion. not in a huge sort of species biological sense, you know, as a person, I see my role as to evolve. the biggest driver I've got is to, when I get to the end of it, I'm a better person than when I started it. And so far I think I am.
Tanaya: where do you think your deepest evolution has actually happened? Professionally, emotionally, relationally, spiritually?
Phil: That's a good one. Look, I think it's probably... subconsciously it occurred when I was a copper. But it only really came to my foreconsciousness when I became an actor. And I think actors generally are really loquacious people, obviously, but they're also deep thinkers. And I love listening to people ruminate on what they think and how they do it and how they go about things. And that's where it really came to the fore for me. where I've arrived in life and that has really helped shape me who I am as of today. Since I've been an actor, as strange as that sounds, I think the rest of my life has set me up
Matt: Mm.
Phil: to be more receptive to it, if that makes sense.
Matt: It does, it does. And and clearly that kind of openness and willingness to connect and communicate and take people's sides, you've you've taken that into to local government. I mean, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you ran for Prime Minister one day. I I really wouldn't. And I'd vote for you. I absolutely would.
Phil: That would be joining
Tanaya: We would
Phil: a political party,
Matt: yes, of course, of course. So you've sort of said this but if one could go back to was it Wakefield, South Wakefield?
Phil: Yeah, Wakefield.
Matt: Go back to Wakefield with those those beautiful mines and collery bun coming round corner and you saw young Phil and you could sit down and have a cup of tea with him or a pint, what would you say to him?
Phil: Say yes to everything.
Matt: Great. Great.
Phil: Simple as that, say yes to everything. You never regret things you've done, You only regret things you let go past.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya: Are there any exceptions?
Phil: Well, I mean, even if you make bad choices, you can become a better person after it, can't you? I've made a few.
Matt: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I guess it's that whole what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. There is some actual emotional truth in that as well.
Phil: Yeah.
Matt: if you learn from it and are able to, as you've alluded to earlier, take that feedback and direct it into a positive way, it can be a very profound and life changing moment.
Phil: Yeah, yeah. And as I've got older and I've started saying yes to absolutely everything, that's what got me into professional acting, was just saying yes a bit more. And I ended up in front of Drew and the rest is history, when you say yes and then people meet you and see you, know, hopefully they see what you can bring to the party and the door's open for you. and yeah, I can say that's absolutely. 100 % correct? For me.
Tanaya: Well, just on that note, Matt and I actually need a loan at the moment, Phil. we are
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: Hmm?
Tanaya: for a you know couple of hundred thousand dollars, we've got a a musical that we want to put on. Funeral the musical.
Phil: I'll just get... I'll get the check, but... That'd be great, that. That would be a great musical.
Tanaya: Well, we would love to cast you in that, Phil. So
Phil: Hahaha
Tanaya: first of all we need two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and and then we need
Phil: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: you to be in it as well.
Matt: Great, great. Well, I've always
Phil: Right.
Matt: said if you need something done, give it to a busy person and you are the busiest person I know, so
Phil: Yeah, I'll get the Go Fund Me, right.
Matt: Mates, it's been so delightful to chat with you. What have you got coming up and how can people get in touch with you? your agency. We can have some links in the show description, but what's coming up for Phil Bedworth? How are you evolving in the short to middle future?
Phil: Well, the short term involves potentially surgery, unfortunately, but I'll find out tomorrow whether that's the case. But professionally, it's pretty quiet on the horizon for me at the moment. I'm having a bit of a reset time, which is,
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: you know, has its benefits. know, but yeah, if people are listening and they do want to find out more. You can get in touch with Double Shot Creative Management.
Matt: We'll put that in the link. Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: type that in.
Tanaya: We'll we'll put put it in in the notes.
Matt: Mm. mate. Look, thank you so much for sharing with
Phil: Well, thank you.
Matt: with such vulnerability and giving us such a vivid glimpse into what has already been a truly incredible life. and long may it continue. I look forward to to working with you again on the stage and in other projects. I love your energy and I love being around you. And all I have to say is for God's sake, take a day off.
Phil: I might take the rest of today off. Thank you.
Tanaya: That sounds like a good plan, Phil. Thank you so much for sharing all of that with us. You're amazing and I can't wait to see the next thing that you're in.
Phil: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me on this great podcast. I've been listening to each one and I love them. I think they're great conversations you're having. So it's nice to be on one.
Matt: Awesome, mate. Take care.
Tanaya: Thank you, Phil.
Phil: You too. Cheers.
Matt: I Now before we completely sign off, if you've been feeling like your cup needs some replenishing, Tanaya and I would love you to join us from April the fifteenth to the twentieth in twenty twenty seven for our next Great Southern Renewal Retreat in magnificent Denmark. If you'd like to know more, message us at connect@mindbodycollective.com.au and we'll send through the details. And if you'd like to explore some of the themes that we cover in these conversations more deeply, You can also grab a copy of the book that has inspired many of them Evolving Traditions: yoga, ethics and modern practice. To find out more about the book, the retreat and other offerings, visit mindbodycollective.com.au.
Tanaya: Hello everyone. Yes, today's conversation is about one of those lives that makes you stop and think, hang on, how many different lifetimes can one person live in a single body? Because our guest today has moved through worlds that most of us can only imagine occupying in one life, let alone several. Professional sport, the army, counterterrorism, homicide investigation, first response, transport infrastructure, local government and now acting across stage and screen.
Matt: And just in case people wondering, am I in the dog box? Have I done something wrong? I'm separated from you because I have the man f or the Matt flu today. So
Tanaya: It's
Matt: I apologize for my my voice. So, our guest today, I first met Phil Bedworth, and those of you who are on the video can see his lovely face down there. When we were both hired as actors in a national tour of the Diary of Anne Frank. And my first thoughts were, this is gonna be easy, he's a great bloke, he's a good actor. I always feel very comfortable with people from the north of England because my mum Judy was from that area, It's gonna be great fun. And all that was true, but very quickly the onion that is Phil Bedworth kept peeling away layers of unexpected stories and other chapters lived. So, like a lot of talented actors here in Perth, we need other income streams and Phil's a you know, project manager of transport in infrastructure. Okay, that's a you know, that's a big job. then I also find out that he's very active in local government. Indeed, he's a counselor on one of the local shires here in Perth. and then there were more stories from this kid from the north playing rugby league, signing up for the army as a paratrooper, no less, dropped into action into real conflict zones. And I'm just sitting across our dressing table with my mouth open at times, listening to these stories, cursing the Tanoi that's calling us to stage. Because I want to hear more of these stories. And they did continue. This young man, Phil Bedworth, then becomes a cop with the Met, the famous London Metropolitan Police, where he encountered some awful moments head on as a first responder. And I'm thinking primarily of the attacks on London in two thousand and five when Trains, a bus and and many, many lives were destroyed by suicide bombers. Phil worked in counterterrorism, which I don't even know if we can talk about. And then Phil Bedworth does what Phil Bedworth does and decides, you know what, they need cops in Western Australia. Never wanted to hesitate. Out with the family to Perth. Works, homicide and traffic accident investigation, and then thinks, you know what? I think I want to be an actor.
Tanaya: And then we've got that. Okay, and then just repeat
Matt: And Phil, being the Phil that I've got to know, leaps into this new chapter with the same gusto. Not only is he has he become highly regarded
Tanaya: the back.
Matt: amongst our peer group for his work, he's also really proactive. he does community theater. When he's not directing or acting in community theater, he's one of the people who goes around and adjudicates community theatre. So, Phil, mate Welcome. You know I love you, but your appetite for life is just way too hard for me to live up to.
Phil: thank you. And thanks for having me on your wonderful podcast. Yeah, it's a full life and it does take all my time
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: management skills to fit it all in, but I manage it somehow.
Tanaya: Now, Phil, before we get into all of the twists and turns of your life, we always like to begin with the same question for our guests because it often gives us little insights about the road that they've travelled. So we're very curious, what's the first thing that you remember your parents teaching you about the world when you were young?
Phil: Well, for the earliest portion of my life, I was raised by my mum, single parent, until she met my stepdad when I was about 10. So it was primarily down to her, have to say, that kind of formed me into this person you see before you today. But the biggest thing that I always carry, and I'm now passing on to my kids, is in life, I always think if it's not going to be you, then who? and that's not just related for me, not just relating to success. It's related to rolling your sleeves up, getting stuck in, you know, when you see something isn't as you perhaps think it should be or something's broken, rather than be the person that goes, no, someone needs to do something about that. She taught me zip it. get stuck in and make the change. I suppose that's what I can blame for the various detours my life's taken over the years.
Matt: I mean you've talked a lot about your beautiful mum and what a strong influence she clearly was on you. what was it like growing up in a place like West Yorkshire as a young fella? What was the kind of expectations of a young man in that area and was your mum able to, guide you through all of that?
Phil: she absolutely did. And I mean, I was born into a very working class part of West Yorkshire, which was based around heavy industry. The coal mine was still functioning quite heavily in the town. so we had glass factories and the chemical factory and that sort of thing. was picturesque. It was all rolling hills as well.
Matt: Sounds beautiful.
Tanaya: So,
Phil: Seriously though, you could go a mile up the road and you would be in sort of like rolling meadows. It's
Matt: Yes.
Phil: quite the contrasting place. The expectation of a young man then was you go to school, you do as well as you probably can, which the bar was pretty low. You find a nice girl who can stand seeing you every morning. You get a job probably down the pit. And then you have kids, you get married, you get a mortgage and that's you.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: you work hard, you graft and you get your money, you go for your beers on the weekend and then you start all over again, control or delete on a Sunday and away you go again. That was the expectation. So, you know, that was, thanks to Margaret Thatcher and the Tory party for good or bad. those industries are currently not there and they weren't there when I... was coming to the end of my high school. But I do remember from being very young that my mum who came from that sort of background too, who could quite easily have gone down the same path and fallen into the same mentality. I remember her saying to me very young, when you grow up, you do really well at school, you go to university, you get yourself a good job and you go and see this world.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: Ironically, when I did that, she never forgave me, but
Matt: Ha ha ha ha.
Phil: you But that's my overriding memory of being a young man in West Yorkshire in the late 70s, going through the
Matt: Mm.
Phil: 80s. The expectation wasn't much. I remember an aunt of mine, thought I was the bravest person in the world when I left Yorkshire.
Matt: Yes, wow. Yeah.
Phil: It was that kind of mental, you could seriously, with one hand grenade, you could take out three generations of my family down one street, you know, it's that kind of place where the only time they leave is to go to Penny Doan for a fortnight.
Matt: Yes.
Phil: And, you know, and that's not me criticizing, that's a fact and they're all very happy, as am I. yeah, to answer your question in a really long sort of way, that was what was expected. That was the
Matt: Mm.
Phil: kind of the life I was born into.
Tanaya: I really love the sound of your mum. I love her philosophy. so, you you started out playing rugby league at a local professional club and then somehow found your way into the British Army, how on earth did that happen, that transition?
Phil: Yeah, I played for a club called Wakefield Trinity, which are not as good as NRL, unfortunately, but you he was a high standard for us.
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: And yeah, I got an injury and whilst I was recovering from the injury, I started ruminating on, what it was going to be like. mean, was gangbusters going to be professional sports star at the time. And that was the ambition. And I started looking at, where I was, this injury, was that going to have a long term effect? Obviously the the rehab and access to medical staff wasn't what it was back in the early 90s as it is today for professional players. So, it was a case of, do I continue down this? Am I good enough? Was also the question to get to where I need to get to, to make it happen for myself in such a short window. If I'm honest, I could probably have eeked a living out carrying on playing rugby
Matt: Hm.
Phil: as a journeyman. But I've never been one of those people satisfied with being below what I believe I can achieve. And I genuinely looked myself in the eye one day and just said, I don't think I've got that talent. I mean, I was playing at the time, a friend of mine was Jason Robinson, who ended up playing for England over here when Johnny Wilkinson nicked the World Cup off the Wallabies.
Matt: I remember it well.
Phil: Long time ago, was the only English triscorer that game was Jason. You know, I was looking at guys like him, I was playing against or with, and I was thinking, they just seem to have something different that I don't seem to possess. And so was at that time I made the call, know, rugby has up to that point and ever since has always been a great passion of mine. But I knew perhaps, reaching for the stars in the professional game wasn't, in the clouds for me. So I recovered from the injury and I was walking through Leeds town centre one day and I saw the military recruiting office. I was walking past that and there's pictures of guys skiing and windsurfing and all this kind of thing. So I walked in.
Matt: I mean, you and I both grew up in a time when the the biggest conflict that the British Army had had in those years was the Falkland War, the
Phil: Mm.
Matt: Falklands War. And so how was the army viewed for you in that part of life? Was it still a great adventure or was there a sense of hesitation that you might find yourself very quickly in, quite dangerous situations?
Phil: Yeah, it was a nice out for lads, I suppose, if they didn't have the academia or scholastic nature to get out of Yorkshire and the kind of working class upbringing. I suppose by then as well, if I'm honest, the culture around that was also changing. It wasn't quite open all hours anymore. University was becoming a lot more accessible for kids of my age and that sort of thing. So it was on the change. But overall, academic ability was low amongst my peer group. and I'm sure none of them will mind me saying that. So the army was seen as a way, as was the Navy and the Air Force, they were all seen as good ways out to get around and see the world. But you must remember at that time as well, the Northern Irish Troubles was still a very big thing.
Matt: Yes.
Phil: So a lot of parents were highly reluctant to sign up their kids to join the army as a 16 year old.
Matt: Yes.
Phil: 18 they couldn't stop you obviously, but they had to sign on the dotted line when you were 16. You know, no, no, no, but
Matt: Were you sixteen when when you joined? No, no, no.
Phil: it's more around answering your question in regards to, were people reluctant? I suppose the people wanting to join weren't reluctant, the parents having to sign them, even when they were 18 and they couldn't go, parents were still trying to talk. especially joining the army because
Matt: Yes.
Phil: that was a regular deployment for lads in the army was to go to across to Northern Ireland and become a regular target I suppose. So
Matt: Mm.
Phil: yeah, was a bit of both really Matt. was still seen as a great adventure but one that you know it wasn't peacetime for the Brits back then.
Matt: Mm, mm.
Tanaya: So how old were you Phil when you got into the army?
Phil: I was 18. I didn't need any parental involvement.
Tanaya: So, okay, so you so you you're 18, you you get
Phil: Mm.
Tanaya: into the army. so what do institutions like the army and police teach a person that civilian life often doesn't? And you know, and what do they also take from you or train out of you in in order to make you effective in those environments?
Phil: Sure, both careers, you gotta learn very quickly that no one's coming. You're in this life on your own, which sounds awful, but I took it as a huge positive to learn that about myself, that mommy and daddy are not around the corner. You have to figure things out for yourself. You have to be a grownup. You need to learn things fast. And that life. is tough, that life is a competition, that you're not going to get promoted just because you've got the best attendance. You have to have a certain extra bit of juice and je ne sais quoi about yourself to get that promotion. And it taught me very quickly not to stay still.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: Both lives have taught me not to stay still, not to assume I'm the finished article. because when you start, you know, I've often found that when I start feeling like that, someone or something comes along to kick me in the pants and show me that I'm not, so they taught me the benefit of feedback as well.
Matt: That's yeah, that's very interesting. and yeah, I have noticed that with you. You are you are very open to feedback and it doesn't you know, I'm someone who's so thin skinned that I have to almost take a deep breath before I listen to what someone's got to say about me. But you you you take it very openly and you turn it into a positive. I've witnessed that.
Phil: I certainly try. I'm not a perfect person and it's taken a lot of practice to not be thin-skinned as you say. Now I disagree with you there Matt, think a guy who's spent his entire life in the industry you've been in, know, in the public domain, you can't be thin-skinned, surely.
Matt: He
Phil: But yeah, yeah, I do. you know, so I really didn't get my head around it until I was probably in my late 20s. The value of it completely.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: When I was younger, I suppose if I'm truthful, I've probably taught it as a sports player as well. Every single professional sports person I've ever seen who operate at high level, any person actually, who operates at high levels, rarely pay attention to what they do well.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: It's almost like an aside. That's the outcome of all the hard work. What they zone in on is what they need to tweak and improve on.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: And I think I think they're the one percenters, aren't they? People who can do that. It took me too long to learn that, unfortunately, to make any meaningful success. but yeah, feedback, I love it. I accept it open heartedly. You know, I've had feedback that's meant to hurt me and I quickly discard that. Yeah. But when I ask for feedback and people give it, no matter how blunt, you know, I can tell they're giving it with the greatest of intent. Then you've got to listen. What do I know?
Matt: Yes, yes.
Tanaya: Yeah. Yeah, And so going back to that timeline, because you know, your timeline of events and career changes is so intriguing. You eventually became a detective with the Metropolitan Police in London, including work in counter-terrorism. Now for most people that world feels very distant, almost cinematic. So, how did you Find yourself there.
Phil: It was a steady progression. No one joins the cops as a detective. So I did my street pounding around East London in uniform, going to routine calls. I'll put it like that. I don't think there's anything routine in London, to be honest, especially in Hackney and places like that. So I did my time. And then, then, tacitly, they weren't allowed to say so officially. quality and fairness reasons, but you couldn't even dream of joining the detective branch, it's called here, CID back there. You could even dream of getting a secondment until you got at least five years service behind you. I did, you know, my time learning how to speak to people, getting punched in the face quite regularly because that was a skill I learnt late as well. You know, learning how to deal with people, read people, see them come in, you know, handle people, develop informants. you know, low level, but nonetheless, but develop informants and understanding the kind of villains you've got living in the area and what their particular ways of, conducting crimes are so that when a crime comes in, you can quickly go, I know who's done that, and all that takes time. and truthfully, I was never that ambitious to become a detective to start the kind of detectives I was bumping into, I found horribly arrogant and full of their own self-importance. And it kind of put me off the idea for a little while. And again, Glynis jumped in the back of my head and she said, if not you, then who? And I thought, well, yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: And I quickly realized that I had a particular interest in the investigation side of things. So I pursued that and then steadily worked my way sideways and ended up working in the counterterrorism unit.
Matt: Well I would love to ask you some questions about the counterterrorism unit. I'm not sure what you're able to answer or or not able to answer, but I'm just intrigued by you know, you've told me a few stories about seeing action as a paratrooper coming under fire. and you've alluded to some of the more violent parts of everyday life as a bobby do they call it are the Met Police Bobbies, yeah. a a Bobby,
Phil: Yeah.
Matt: pounding the pavement and getting attacked. are you someone who's drawn to that kind of edge, that kind of were you actually excited by that danger and potential fear?
Phil: Not consciously. I suppose it's hard to deny that given that that's what I've done. I suppose I'm not an adrenaline junkie in that sense, but I don't know how to take a backwards step when I think I'm in the right in terms of
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: physically. And again, I was often... had the mentality that, it's me, I've got to get these bad guys, it's my job,
Matt: Yes.
Phil: the reason I'm doing that is to be in that position. And, yeah, it's, it's not something I consciously get drawn to, but I go after it because if not me, then who's going to do it, and,
Matt: yeah.
Phil: and I hate letting bad things happen to good people.
Tanaya: I mean what on earth is it like to operate in situations where you're being shot at being undercover walking into a homicide responding to something like the London bombings and I believe as I think Matt might have touched upon before you were one of the first responders I mean what's it like that kind of stuff being your day to day?
Phil: At first it was very adrenaline filled obviously as you can imagine but you do get desensitized quite quickly. That being said, it's often afterwards that you sit down and you think bloody hell, that could have gone horribly wrong.
Matt: Yes.
Phil: You know, like car chases, for example, they seem fun when you're watching, the Fast and the Furious and in the moment, I wouldn't say they're fun. I'm just dialed in, know,
Matt: Mm.
Phil: and doing what I needed to do. But afterwards you sit down and go, bloody hell, that could have ended differently. So yeah, it's weird to say and I don't want it to sound trite or cliched, but. You kind of do just switch into this, into what the training teaches you. I suppose it's like, people who do martial arts, they do it so repetitively. They've gone through the four stages of training, haven't they? And they've
Matt: Mm.
Phil: arrived at what I was taught was unconsciously competent about doing things where like, you just do it. You don't need
Matt: Yes.
Phil: to, you just do. And ironically, that it was the unconscious competence that... made me realise I needed to leave the police.
Matt: Okay, yes. That's the very interesting because my next train of thought was that's amazing that people are so highly trained and so highly motivated to not question and we saw that with the the firefighters walking into the Twin Towers all those years ago too. This is just my
Phil: Mm.
Matt: job and I'm going to do it. But at some point the the curtains are closed and you're there on your own. And I'm assuming that people cope in many different ways. and how do those feelings arise? is it something that you've had to to process or you've been able to let it go?
Phil: I think for the most part I've been able to let it go. I think I'm either lucky or unlucky, it depends which way a psychologist would assess me I suppose, but I compartmentalize things quite easily and put them in boxes and forget about them. And again, I don't want to make that sound a good thing or a bad thing, it's just me. Because I've got plenty of friends who are struggling, after a long career. and I see what they're going through and it makes me wonder, am I almost sociopathic about things? I almost feel like I should be the same, feeling the same way. And then I just have to remind myself that we're all different people, we've all got different brains, we all deal with things differently. So there's been cases, there's been jobs I've been on and the London Bombings is one, every year on the anniversary, I do get a little bit of a lump in my throat thinking about it. because if I can just go off at a tangent about a positive on that one. I think on July the 6th, 2005, I was done with the human race. I was over humanity. I thought, we're all screwed. a bit like, you know, Batman Begins, you know, the League of Shadows needed to come to London. And they did. And but what they did was when the bombs happened and we did what we did and we came above surface again. I saw a stranger helping stranger.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: saw this massive, just all these people walking up Kingsland High Street on their own, because there was no transport, helping each other. And almost like what I imagine the Blitz spirit was like. And that evening, I remember sitting down and I had a good shed of tears, but that may have also been as a result of a snifter or two. know, thinking about that, and I remember thinking... In the worst circumstances, you find the best. And
Matt: Mm.
Phil: that's what I remember each anniversary now. And it does make me tear up. But it's not about
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: the negative side of it all. It's the good stuff that makes me tear up. The
Matt: Mm.
Phil: colleagues and the friends who were there on the day doing what they were doing and the struggles they now have. I think of them often. And it bonds you to these people that I'll probably never see again. Or if I was to fly back to London, I'd call them and... we got for a pint like it was only last week, you know? And
Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: they're the sort of emotions that come back to me now, the positive, the good stuff. But I remember at the time, and certain other jobs, especially working here at Major Crash as well, certain things did set me off a little every now and again, but I'm not immune to it.
Tanaya: I often think about, hardship and about the moments in my own life that have shaken me awake, near death and other high threat experiences, how they can strip life back to what really matters. they can make us more humble, discerning, more forgiving, more grateful, or on the other side of the scale. They can make us harder, more judgmental, more guarded. when you hear those two extremes, where would you place yourself in that mix? have all of those things made you harder, more guarded? Or do you find that, as you were describing just now, that more of that softness?
Phil: I you better ask my family that one.
Tanaya: Yeah.
Phil: I think all of the above. I think I'm all of the above. I can be incredibly intolerable of people based on my own expectations. I can also be softer and I can be more understanding of certain things. I think what I've learned as I've got older is that that's okay. under some total of my experiences. And
Matt: Mm.
Phil: as long as I recognize the negativity and handle it, then that can only be a good thing, So I think it's hard to fit in with any one of those boxes.
Tanaya: I was actually now you brought up family, ask your family about that and I was very curious about that. So, living with someone like yourself who has been through all of those things, What does that kind of temperament mean for the people who live with you? are you a dream to live with? Are you a nightmare to live with? I I mean I'm going right for the jugular here.
Phil: Absolutely, why not? I think in some aspects, I'm a nightmare. Well, I know I am. don't think I know. have, as I'm sure Matt will tell you, I'm incredibly, I don't want to say OCD because that would be paying a disrespect to people with that condition because I've never been diagnosed, but I'm fair. I'm very particular about. my things and how I like them to be and things in places and again I can blame my mum for this I do believe. so and
Tanaya: Yeah.
Phil: I live with a bunch of people who are not like that and that's where my expectation of them starts kicking in and that's where I have to check myself.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: So I suppose I'm a nightmare like that I mean and I'm also someone who when I've decided something needs to be done then I will do it and I'll do it now and
Matt: Mm.
Phil: I don't want to sit on the couch and leave it till later because it'll be nagging away at me and and I know that winds Jo up no end and she's like can't you just relax I can when it's done.
Tanaya: Matt, does that sound familiar?
Matt: Well, you know when I looked across at the dressing table at Phil's bits and pieces and how neatly they were put next to him, I said to him, We're never gonna make it as a couple, you and I.
Phil: That's true. Absolutely. I think in some other aspects, know, I can take credit as being a dream to live with, know, because
Matt: Yes,
Phil: I get stuff done. And,
Tanaya: Yeah.
Phil: know, I'm not one for, something needs doing, I do it, you know, I try to be a present dad as much as I can.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: etc, etc. But I think I think those questions are best answered objectively.
Matt: No, you're you're you're
Tanaya: Mm-hmm.
Matt: hopefully at a place that we're all at where we we're doing our best in this crazy game. We're aware we're aware of our own flaws and we try and
Phil: Mm.
Matt: check them when they're they're not
Phil: Yeah.
Matt: serving us. And I I don't think you can ask any more of a human being really.
Phil: Yeah, I agree. I agree. None of us are perfect, are we?
Matt: So let's move the the the timeline.
Tanaya: So we can get on like one.
Matt: at what point did you decide, you know what, I think it's time for a move? I I believe you told me that at one point Western Australia was canvassing people in UK, I think both for teachers and for police officers, and
Phil: Yeah.
Matt: you answered the call. How did that play out?
Phil: Yeah, I can't really remember how I came across it. But one day I was on the day off and my then wife and my oldest kids were at school. So was in the house alone and I think I might have been booking a holiday. I was on the internet and this advert popped up. police officers? Do you want to come and live in Western Australia? And up to that point, I would never have qualified for a visa on skills because the police was never regarded. on the list. And I started digging into it and I think, yeah, so I speared an email off, forgot about it. And about two weeks later, the reply came back, yeah, can you come down to Australia House in London for a cause by that time we were living back up in West Yorkshire, because I transferred back up there for about 12 months to open their regional counterterrorism units or up there. So I got an invite down to Australia House to do an interview. So I thought, well, this is probably an opportune moment to mention that I'd sent an email off. And so So yeah, I got nothing but positive vibes back. And it was a case of, if I'm honest, it was career suicide for me. I was in a good place, I was doing a lot of sexy covert stuff at the time. And then I looked out the window, it had been raining for pretty much nine months solid. And you know, these kids were ghostly white. And then I looked at the photos of Cottesloe Beach again. And I thought, yeah, we're gonna do it for them. and that sounds like I have regrets. I don't. It's just the reality of the situation. I was swapping. probably a really sexy career at the time for not such a sexy career. But I went into that eyes wide open and yeah, so we decided we'd move, we'd sell lock stock and everything and give it five years minimum. And that was in 2008. And here I am.
Tanaya: you know, you mentioned your kids a couple of times. And you've mentioned, you've given us a snippet into the OCD-ness
Phil: Yeah.
Tanaya: of your life. has becoming a father changed the way that you think about risk, duty, what it means to be responsible and has has parenthood softened you in any way or or maybe sharpened you in a different way?
Phil: Yeah, definitely. I can certainly understand how when you're watching Attenborough documentaries, how the female of the species are when they've got young. And pre becoming a dad, I was probably a lot more gung-ho, yeah. Probably a lot less dynamic risk accessible. so it certainly made me realize that there was more at stake and I had to think a little bit harder about doing things and You know oftentimes though in policing you you don't get the time to have to be able to think about things. So where I was planning operations and going through unknown doors and those sorts of things, whereas as a non-parent, I'd have probably just got my boot out, put that door through and gone for it. Whereas this time I'd be certainly assessing things in a little bit more detail.
Matt: I don't know how much of this you can talk about, but you've told me before about the moment that you you realised that you didn't want to do policing anymore. and I I don't know if that's something you're able to share with us because it had a profound effect on me when you told me.
Phil: Yeah, absolutely. I was working night shifts at Mirrabooka Detective's office. In CIB here, you only ever do one week of nights, probably twice a year, and there's only ever two detectives on duty. The idea is that if things happen, you hand them over for the day staff. So you just basically... keeping things running until the daytime stuff coming. So there's only two of us on duty. And we got called to a murder scene out in Balga somewhere. we did, we started going out there and primary responsibility for a murder scene in WA is taken by major crime. But the district detectives initially go and start the investigation. Anyway. So we went out, I did what I had to do, I was the senior officer, so I led the crime scene and we had the suspect in handcuffs and witnesses, rady, rady, rah, forensics were on the way, the scene was locked down. Did everything we had to do, major crime, arrived in their Versace suits and took over. And at which point your job is then to go back to the police station and write a report about what you'd done up to that point. And I'm writing away, I'm tapping away at the screen and I suddenly stop. And I said to my colleague, I said, have you ever driven anywhere where, you've got there and you know, you've got there safely, but you, for the life of you, can't remember the journey. You know, yeah. I said, that's how I feel about this murder scene. I know
Matt: Yes.
Phil: I've done a good job, but I don't remember any of it. And it was at that point where I went, I've got to go. I'm done. It's not got the same stuff for me anymore. If I can do that, then what's the point?
Matt: were you alarmed because you weren't experiencing it on an emotional level like you thought that you should? were you feeling that there was something wrong with you, that you were able to just turn off and dot the I's and cross the T's?
Phil: Yeah, yeah, I felt that my sharpness will start going if I'm doing things subconsciously.
Matt: Uh-huh.
Phil: but where's the sense of achievement in anything if you're just going through some motions?
Matt: Mm.
Phil: I'm not saying everything has to be a conscious thought, but there needs to be external stimuli to make you feel what you're doing. And if your heart's not racing a little bit every now and again, then what's the point?
Matt: Uh-huh.
Phil: And I'd been around, I'd done various roles in Waypol, I'd done various roles in the Met as well. And I knew, I just felt it to my marrow that the policing was done for me. And people have asked me ever since, do you regret leaving? And my answer has always been genuinely 100 % no.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: Because of that, I knew I needed a new intellectual challenge.
Tanaya: one line when I was reading through your bio, it really jumped out at me. and it was about the common fascination that you have with people. these seemingly different worlds of first response transport, now acting, which we'll get to in a moment. We haven't even touched upon that yet. That's another exciting layer to Phil Bedworth but what are the main things that you've learned about people in all of that compote of experience?
Phil: I'm going to have to quote Anne Frank now. I think in spite of everything, people are genuinely good at heart. I think
Matt: Nice.
Tanaya: sure.
Phil: There are some dreadful people out there who to their core are just self-centered. I mean, we see plenty of them in the White House at the moment, don't we? But
Matt: Yes.
Phil: you know, they're self-centered. They're in it for themselves. but the vast, vast majority of people I had to deal with as a cop. or just generally now, just flawed people with good intent. So I think, yeah, to answer your question, Tanaya I think genuinely, despite how jaded I can get from time to time, people are genuinely nice.
Matt: Mm, mm. I mean I
Tanaya: So you're more you're more hopeful about people. you have more hope about people than perhaps you may have done before moving through that career path.
Phil: Definitely, definitely. think it takes the experience to make you realize that and I think age as well. think you don't have to have lived the life I've lived to come to this conclusion. I just think as you get older, you realize, most people are just trying to get through this crazy life in whatever way they can. yeah, Most people are good and most people
Matt: Hm.
Phil: are just doing their best with what they've been given by the universe. if we take judgementalness out of everyone's character, I think the world could be quite a lot better.
Matt: Yeah, it could. now we will now move on to Phil Bedworth, the actor, because of course, that's how I know you and and got to know you, but was that a surprise for those that know and love you, or has that been something that you'd had on the back burner all your life? This professional
Tanaya: Yeah.
Matt: rugby player, army paratrooper. met police officer counterterrorism. I think I might tread the boards at the community
Phil: You
Matt: theatre. I mean was that a shock to people? And had that been something that had been burning within you the whole time?
Phil: Yes, it had. I did drama through high school and I did and predominantly because that's the subject that only girls chosen, particularly young lady in that group there who I quite fancied back then. But anyway, I found that I really enjoyed it and I really threw myself into it and I had a beautiful teacher, Miss Yvonne Fletcher. She was so supportive of me and believe it or not back then, I wonder what she's doing.
Tanaya: Shout out to Yvonne.
Phil: I'd love to hear from her. Up to that point, I was quite a shy young man, and quite unsure of myself. I think a lot of kids of that age are though, aren't they? So I took drama at high school, loved that. But again, the weight of expectation in a working class environment, it's like becoming a professional actor, is that a proper job, lad?
Matt: Yes, yes.
Phil: There's a lot of that going on. Not that I ever expressed an interest to pursue training with like, I don't know, RADA or whoever,
Matt: Mm, mm.
Phil: it wasn't on my agenda then. But yeah, I always loved it. I would have always been able to have done some amateur dramatics living in the UK as well. But my shifts and things just didn't allow it to happen.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: And then coming here, was the same. And... I suppose some of the roles I've done in the UK and here a little bit required a lot of improv in terms of the covert stuff. But I might have kept my skills up that way a little bit. But yeah, when I came here and eventually left and went into regular office hour work, I literally just pressed like on an audition notice on a Facebook page for Limelight Theatre up here for Sherlock Holmes because I'm a Holmes tragic. I love the books. I love the TV show. And I just press like and then I got a message on Facebook to say, would you like to come audition? was like, I've not done. Last thing I did was Fagin back in 1990 or whatever it was. So
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: she had come in and read for me. So I read as Holmes and she went, I'm sorry, Phil, you're not Sherlock Holmes. Well, you know, thanks for your time, Sid. But I do see you as Dr. Watson.
Matt: Uh-huh.
Phil: And I've never looked back and I was just bitten by the bug. then yeah, since that time I've thrown myself into it and I'm scratching a big itch that's been dormant in me for many years.
Matt: Hmm. I mean again forgive me if you can't talk about it, but you mentioned it then. as part of your covert stuff, we are talking about going undercover, right? So there can be no more higher stakes performance than something like that. I don't know how much of you that you can tell us, but was that something that gave you a great buzz?
Tanaya: So we to have more. I don't know if you that's what I was something that yeah people
Matt: And and you almost saw yourself as a great performer?
Tanaya: like and then
Phil: Yeah, yeah, I suppose I did looking back. And yeah, it is related to undercover. But you know, I never did the sort of undercover work for years and years and years like the deep cover people do.
Matt: Uh-huh.
Phil: I really didn't have the capability to do that and hats off to those people. the sort of short term stuff I did was, you know, in the run up to I don't whether you remember, Matt, when you lived in the UK, but every May day, the anti catalysts would congregate in Trafalgar Square and smash McDonald's windows. And one of the roles of mine was to stop showering and put my duffel coat back on and then try to get him one of those groups and just basically report back on where we're walking off to and ready, ready, ready. And I've been arrested a few times as part of that. And yeah, it requires performing because I'm no longer Phil Bedworth, like we do when we go on stage. We've got to leave that person off stage, haven't we?
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: You see, you'd leave that when you first deployed and you'd be this person. So it was a performing, it was performing throughout.
Matt: Mm mm, fascinating.
Tanaya: And you know, when I think of acting, I really see it as being of service in the world. There's something quite fulfilling about playing a part in in helping people navigate the ordinary challenges that shape daily lives. And I find that through the work I do in the yoga and the other classes that I teach throughout the week. Do you find this quieter form of service, I would say, the life of an actor is a much quieter form of service than some of the other roles you've done. Do you find it as fulfilling, more fulfilling? I imagine it is glamorous in ways, but the intensity is is different. Maybe the prestige.
Phil: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's no greater thrill for me than the look on people's faces when they've enjoyed what you've done. there is a lot of blood, sweat and tears goes into it as I'm sure you well know, Tanaya it's not something you just rock up and do. so to then see people who've spent good money coming to see you, spent an evening with you. just to be entirely engrossed in the show that everyone around you and you put on is an absolute wonderful privilege. that's why I do it as much as anything. It's great fun and you get a lot back. so yeah, I agree with you. I think it is a kind of service. No one wants to go out and see a crap show. So when you see that, you're making people happy, what can be better than that?
Matt: Mm.
Phil: I don't know whether you'd agree with that, Matt, or...
Matt: absolutely, mate. I mean, I I love the idea of being a a storyteller or a joke teller and and if I'm doing that in a stand up sense, all I want from them is to have a good night and have a good laugh. And if I'm getting that, I mean I do need the money, but that that fills my emotional cup for sure. and I do feel good about particularly as the world sometimes feels very serious and hard that I am able to use my skill set to give people an hour and a half off just talking about silly stuff. Yeah.
Phil: Yeah, yeah, and I feel the same way.
Tanaya: Yeah. Yeah. you've played roles like Harry Bright in Mamma Mia, and I was lucky enough to see you as Otto Frank in the diary of Anne Frank, which she did with Matt. Very different energies, very different emotional worlds. I had the privilege of living with Matt during that method acting that that he that he did during that time. what are roles like Otto Frank? You're amazing by the way, as as Otto Frank.
Phil: Thank you.
Tanaya: what do those kind of roles ask of you and and do you find it easy transforming from role role?
Phil: No, I don't find it easy. I'm a hardworking actor. I'm not particularly skilled, I don't think. So for me, it's all in the preparation and doing the hard yards before opening night. And it's also the team around me that give me a lot of what I need as well. like Harry Bright, for example, in Mamma Mia, it's at high tempo. And I was surrounded by a bunch of people that had more energy than I could ever hope to own myself. And
Matt: Yes.
Phil: that helped me get into that. And then when we did the Diary of Anne Frank, I was surrounded by these incredibly talented people who just had so many different ways of viewing it and what was going on in there. And again, as I was told as a kid, you've got two ears and one mouth for a reason. And I really employed that in the early runs. of the Diary of Anne Frank in the rehearsal room, I was probably pretty quiet. And it's just me imbibing the skills of the other people around me to help me get into that because, I don't naturally roll from role to role Sorry dreadful choice of words there. I don't go from role to role easily. I really have to grind it out, I suppose. Sorry.
Matt: do you get nervous? I mean, does the incredibly high caliber and dangerous things that you've done with your life mean that walking onto a stage is a breeze for you, or does that anxiety come from a different place that's just as powerful?
Phil: I wouldn't call it anxiety, for me it's an excitement, it's an anticipation, I want to get out there. The worst roles I could possibly have in any show is one where I come on scene three, because
Matt: Yes.
Phil: for the other two scenes I'm pacing backstage just
Matt: Yes.
Phil: waiting, whereas Otto was ideal for me.
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: So it's more anticipative energy that I get. And a lot like playing sport, know, I need that first touch of the ball or that first tackle to settle into it. Yeah, so I get incredibly excited going out there. It's about excitement and anticipation for me. And the buzz is still the same.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: The elevation of heart rate, the pupil dilation, all that stuff. I can still feel it going on regardless of what I'm into. Yeah, it's an appreciation of that's when I feel, I'm zinging at that point. I'm absolutely
Matt: Yes.
Phil: buzzing. And you walk out there and you start doing it and it's just, yeah, and then it feels natural, if that makes sense.
Matt: Brilliant. It does. It very much does. Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: I've never had a fear of people judging me and watching me.
Matt: Well, that's interesting.
Phil: Yeah, I often, I have to tell it to the kids now, my youngest, she gets quite anxious about performing in front of people. And I say, don't worry about those people because they're not up here doing what you're doing. So they don't have a right to be judgmental, and.
Matt: Phil, it took me I I still have that fear and it's probably the one thing and we're gonna ask you in a moment about what you would love to be able to say to your younger self and certainly for me it would be to go back and say stop caring what other people think because it's been my Achilles heel
Tanaya: Well asked people have that bottom you would build them. And so it would score if I
Phil: Mm.
Matt: and continues to be. I I really admire that. Yeah.
Phil: I didn't learn that young. It's experience that taught me that, think. It was not intrinsic.
Matt: Hmm. Hmm.
Tanaya: Before we do get to that question, I have another question for Phil. You've moved between careers, countries, industries, identities. What have you had to let go of internally in order to keep evolving? And what parts of yourself have remained constant through all of that?
Phil: I suppose what I've had to let go the most would be ego. Not that I had a massive one anyway, I'd like to think I didn't. But it was more about, worrying about the outcome and then what people would think of me if I didn't achieve the outcome.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: And I started, again, I had a wonderful person I worked with many years ago who told me, don't worry about the end result. just worry about putting one foot in front of the other till you get there. when that switch flicked in my head, I've got a lot easier. So that's the ego side of things is what I've had to let go and not worry. What's the other part of your question? Sorry, Tanaya
Tanaya: What's what's the thing that has not changed? What's been the constant, the sort of essence of you that has remained, I mean, I guess the question kind of moves into ethics and values and what have been the values? What have been the principles that have remained the same? Or that you've learned about yourself?
Phil: I suppose the major principle I've learned about myself is, that, I know I'm not perfect, but I didn't realize how imperfect I was until I started getting older. But the major principle I've always tried to carry through life ever since being a young man, actually, and I'm pretty proud of myself for having this from such a young age. Again, you can thank your parents, can't you? Is that, you know, treat everybody like they're your grandma. and how would you want someone to treat your grandma? And as long as you're dealing with them in that way, then you could be proud of yourself. there's nothing wrong with being nice. You could be hard, you could be nice.
Matt: Mm.
Phil: and I suppose from an ethics perspective, that would be the major thing I've kept. But we're on this planet to evolve in my opinion. not in a huge sort of species biological sense, you know, as a person, I see my role as to evolve. the biggest driver I've got is to, when I get to the end of it, I'm a better person than when I started it. And so far I think I am.
Tanaya: where do you think your deepest evolution has actually happened? Professionally, emotionally, relationally, spiritually?
Phil: That's a good one. Look, I think it's probably... subconsciously it occurred when I was a copper. But it only really came to my foreconsciousness when I became an actor. And I think actors generally are really loquacious people, obviously, but they're also deep thinkers. And I love listening to people ruminate on what they think and how they do it and how they go about things. And that's where it really came to the fore for me. where I've arrived in life and that has really helped shape me who I am as of today. Since I've been an actor, as strange as that sounds, I think the rest of my life has set me up
Matt: Mm.
Phil: to be more receptive to it, if that makes sense.
Matt: It does, it does. And and clearly that kind of openness and willingness to connect and communicate and take people's sides, you've you've taken that into to local government. I mean, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you ran for Prime Minister one day. I I really wouldn't. And I'd vote for you. I absolutely would.
Phil: That would be joining
Tanaya: We would
Phil: a political party,
Matt: yes, of course, of course. So you've sort of said this but if one could go back to was it Wakefield, South Wakefield?
Phil: Yeah, Wakefield.
Matt: Go back to Wakefield with those those beautiful mines and collery bun coming round corner and you saw young Phil and you could sit down and have a cup of tea with him or a pint, what would you say to him?
Phil: Say yes to everything.
Matt: Great. Great.
Phil: Simple as that, say yes to everything. You never regret things you've done, You only regret things you let go past.
Matt: Yeah. Yeah.
Tanaya: Are there any exceptions?
Phil: Well, I mean, even if you make bad choices, you can become a better person after it, can't you? I've made a few.
Matt: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I guess it's that whole what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. There is some actual emotional truth in that as well.
Phil: Yeah.
Matt: if you learn from it and are able to, as you've alluded to earlier, take that feedback and direct it into a positive way, it can be a very profound and life changing moment.
Phil: Yeah, yeah. And as I've got older and I've started saying yes to absolutely everything, that's what got me into professional acting, was just saying yes a bit more. And I ended up in front of Drew and the rest is history, when you say yes and then people meet you and see you, know, hopefully they see what you can bring to the party and the door's open for you. and yeah, I can say that's absolutely. 100 % correct? For me.
Tanaya: Well, just on that note, Matt and I actually need a loan at the moment, Phil. we are
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Phil: Hmm?
Tanaya: for a you know couple of hundred thousand dollars, we've got a a musical that we want to put on. Funeral the musical.
Phil: I'll just get... I'll get the check, but... That'd be great, that. That would be a great musical.
Tanaya: Well, we would love to cast you in that, Phil. So
Phil: Hahaha
Tanaya: first of all we need two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and and then we need
Phil: Mm-hmm.
Tanaya: you to be in it as well.
Matt: Great, great. Well, I've always
Phil: Right.
Matt: said if you need something done, give it to a busy person and you are the busiest person I know, so
Phil: Yeah, I'll get the Go Fund Me, right.
Matt: Mates, it's been so delightful to chat with you. What have you got coming up and how can people get in touch with you? your agency. We can have some links in the show description, but what's coming up for Phil Bedworth? How are you evolving in the short to middle future?
Phil: Well, the short term involves potentially surgery, unfortunately, but I'll find out tomorrow whether that's the case. But professionally, it's pretty quiet on the horizon for me at the moment. I'm having a bit of a reset time, which is,
Matt: Yeah.
Phil: you know, has its benefits. know, but yeah, if people are listening and they do want to find out more. You can get in touch with Double Shot Creative Management.
Matt: We'll put that in the link. Yeah. Yeah.
Phil: type that in.
Tanaya: We'll we'll put put it in in the notes.
Matt: Mm. mate. Look, thank you so much for sharing with
Phil: Well, thank you.
Matt: with such vulnerability and giving us such a vivid glimpse into what has already been a truly incredible life. and long may it continue. I look forward to to working with you again on the stage and in other projects. I love your energy and I love being around you. And all I have to say is for God's sake, take a day off.
Phil: I might take the rest of today off. Thank you.
Tanaya: That sounds like a good plan, Phil. Thank you so much for sharing all of that with us. You're amazing and I can't wait to see the next thing that you're in.
Phil: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me on this great podcast. I've been listening to each one and I love them. I think they're great conversations you're having. So it's nice to be on one.
Matt: Awesome, mate. Take care.
Tanaya: Thank you, Phil.
Phil: You too. Cheers.
Matt: I Now before we completely sign off, if you've been feeling like your cup needs some replenishing, Tanaya and I would love you to join us from April the fifteenth to the twentieth in twenty twenty seven for our next Great Southern Renewal Retreat in magnificent Denmark. If you'd like to know more, message us at connect@mindbodycollective.com.au and we'll send through the details. And if you'd like to explore some of the themes that we cover in these conversations more deeply, You can also grab a copy of the book that has inspired many of them Evolving Traditions: yoga, ethics and modern practice. To find out more about the book, the retreat and other offerings, visit mindbodycollective.com.au.
