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Hey guys, welcome back to the Disciples Made Here podcast where we've been diving deep into not just the 40,000-foot level of what a disciple is, but really at a four-foot level, how do we make them?
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Um and so we've been three sides into the diamond so far.
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Uh we're talking about identify, invite, and imitate.
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And so last week, as Heather and I landed the plane for imitate, we thought, man, what would it be like for us to pause, have a guest episode to talk about how does this get played out in our everyday rhythms of life?
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Um, and specifically our first joy filled community of faith is for me with my bride and then with my babies, like our families.
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So so often we've used spiritual parenting as a metaphor for what disciple making is.
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It's Ephesians 4, where Paul says, I want to raise people up.
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So for me, it's little Andrew becoming more transformed into mature manhood.
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And then as a dad, how do I help Braden and Carson and Peyton that parenting is not some side category of discipleship, it is discipleship.
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And so I love that.
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So today the hope is that we're gonna slow down, ask some questions of Jen, share some stories as a family.
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And so it is fun for me to have you as my bride join us.
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I know it's not as fun for you, nope, but thank you for just your grace and willingness to be here to process with us.
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So thank you.
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Okay, well, you're welcome, I suppose.
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We'll see if it's good afterwards, but it doesn't matter.
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Um, okay, so let's just set the tone before we start.
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I am not perfect at parenting.
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I have a lot of experience between being a high school teacher and a college professor and a children's pastor and a parent.
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I've been doing it for 19 years, but in 19 years, everybody might come back and I might say, Don't listen to anything I just said.
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You might say that in 19 years.
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Yeah.
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But um for the most part, we've been students of the word and students of children.
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And we've put those things together and it has um shaped who we are.
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Parenting has changed our very our character, our our everything.
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And so as we shape them, we're being shaped.
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And so um it's really important.
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But we've learned a lot, and I'm very excited for what we're about to share, but I just want to make sure I'm not coming in as some know at all expert.
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Well, especially because our guest episodes are with experts, and I know you're saying you're not an expert, but I know you are, and I'm thankful for the way that I've learned from you.
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And so for me, uh again, I've shared the story about all I wanted in a bride was someone that would push me towards Christ, and I got that in you.
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As a young pastor, a young preacher and teacher, uh, Jen was a teacher of teachers at Biola University, and so nothing better than getting to preach a sermon, having a teacher on the front row that's like helping you in your teaching, but also you have a child psych background.
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Um, I just learned so much from you, and so I I love that you're doing this with me, because you do do this with me every day of our life, uh, but that we get to do not just as a family, like we do fail forward, like as Jenna have looked at how God has shaped us as sons and daughters through each other in our marriage, but also through being parents.
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Um, and so we are.
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We're here today to fail forward with you, to share some of our learnings, to share some of those stories as a family, but with our disciples made here family.
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And so for me, I'm a why guy, you're a why gal, you've helped me with that.
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The depth of your why determines the length of your what.
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And so, as parents for us, the why is always the glory of God, but it's the good of our kids.
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Like every decision we make, the good ones, the bad ones, the imperfect ones, the why is always for their good, but ultimately for the glory of God.
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That that's what I want most for them is that like us, they would see their identity being rooted and affirmed in Christ because the world is changing, but he's not.
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Right.
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Okay, so um I'm a softball girl at heart.
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I played softball through college.
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So when we talk about the disciples' diamond, I only see it as a baseball diamond.
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So we know there's four sides to a diamond, home to first, first to second, second to third, third to home.
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So between home and first, this is identify.
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And this is where we're praying and watching and watching who God crossed our paths with, and we're identifying those people that we can live intentionally with.
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Right.
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Just make no mistake, I was fully aware that I had children in my stomach, taking away my lungs and hurting my ribs.
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And so I didn't have to identify them.
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I knew they were there, they were there part of my life.
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And they showed up.
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And just like that with invite, you don't have to invite them into your home because they're born into your home.
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And so identifying invite are a little different nuance than the disciples diamond.
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What I'm inviting them into then is just my R1 with Jesus.
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It's just my walk with Jesus.
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Uh as a pastor, they hear me preach, but the best messages aren't on Sunday, they're in our home.
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Is there really more joy in Jesus?
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When I invite them in, it's not that they would do what I want them to do, but I'm inviting them into more joy in Jesus.
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So identify invite in families, they're there.
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Ta-da!
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Yeah.
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And I think a misconception of invite is we think we're um uh sometimes people use the word invite and really they just mean tell.
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And it's not tell.
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And so we're gonna try to break that down as we go.
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An invitation is not just telling them what to do, think, act, behave.
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It is an invitation into something much bigger.
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So then once we go from second to third, we get into imitate.
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Right.
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And when they live in your home and they're around you all the time, the good, the bad, and the ugly is potentially being imitated.
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And and that's um humbling and scary all at the same time.
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And so I'm honored to be their mom, and I hope that I'm just hunting down Christ with fervor that they might see that in me.
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Uh, but I am well aware that when I lose my cool, they too are learning from that.
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So imitating's a fun one, but it is um in those imperfections that I think they actually get to see what mercy and grace really are.
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Amen.
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And at some point your kids get a little bit older and you you send them.
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And that's something we've talked about for 18 years.
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Um, we actually have a 19-year-old now, and so we're in the process of sending, and even as we were considering, I'm like, and it's fun.
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And you're like, but is it?
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Like, is it fun?
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Like, we love our kids, so still on the fence.
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So the idea of sending them, and this is where Jesus lived this out.
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He, and that'll be next week's episode.
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He did a three-year camping trip.
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We as parents get an 18-year camping trip.
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Not that they stopping our kids after 18, but you get some intense time from zero to 18 that I want you to redeem.
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When we were college pastors, parents would be talking about, I'm gonna lose my kid at 18.
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I'm like, if you raise kids to be independent, you start losing your kids at 16.
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They get their license and they're off.
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Um, and it's a good thing.
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And so for us, it's looking back over 19 years saying, how do we redeem every moment that's right here because they're being equipped as they imitate us, as we imitate Christ, to be sent.
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Um, because sending is real for them, just like it is for us.
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So at the end of the day, the goal is that our kids are rooted in Christ.
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I want them to know the gospel so well.
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I want them to know that they're sinners and Jesus paid the price for that.
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I want them to know that um that God has a bigger calling on their life than just becoming successful.
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But those ideas, the the the gospel story, that is that is a hard concept to grasp at little.
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And we try really hard to people try really hard to force that concept into understanding at a really young age instead of building schema, which is what we do in every other educational setting.
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And so um, I'm gonna tell you a story of just how we've lived out the gospel because we believe that every opportunity is a is a a pathway where we can share what the gospel concept actually is.
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And it's not just for information, but again, transformation of their hearts and opportunity to grow.
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Yeah.
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So we're at the State Capitol building in Sacramento, California, and um, we play this very, very dumb game called odds.
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I love it.
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I know.
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Our kids love it.
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It has gotten me into more trouble um across the world.
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I do I've done push-ups in the airports, in international airports, and because I lose all the time at this very silly, stupid game called Odds.
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But they've learned math and they it's essentially a I dare you game, right?
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And so uh someone sets a dare.
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And they say this in what happened at the Capitol building, this is what happened.
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It said, uh well, our older son said, I dare you, Carson, to get up on that at the top of the steps of the Capitol building statue and bang your chest like you're a gorilla.
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And I odds you to do it is how.
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Yeah, Peyton's like zero.
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Yeah, nothing.
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One.
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Um and Carson, who can't say no to a big brother, was like, oh, I'll take those odds.
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And so Carson gets to set the odds because he, you know, if he doesn't want to do it, he can say one in a million.
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But um, you know, he If he's bold, he picks a low number.
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Yeah, so I think he picks seven.
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He said one through seven.
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And so then we counted it off three, two, one, and they both had to say a number.
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And if they say the exact same number, if the person that dared him says the same number as the person that accepted the dare, then that person loses and they have to go do the dare.
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And so we said three, two, one, and both boys went four.
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And that was it.
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Braden was so thrilled that he just won odds.
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Yep.
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And Carson just panicked.
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His whole little four-year-old face just a cute four-year-old face, big cheeks, big eyes.
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Yeah.
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He was like, Oh, I don't want to really do that.
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I don't and all of a sudden he was completely afraid to pay his debt.
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Now, at this moment, I would consider this moment being like filled with the Holy Spirit.
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Like, I'm not going into the morning saying, Man, how do I preach the gospel?
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Like every morning the gospel is preached to me when I wake up and look in the mirror and I remember the goodness of God.
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Um, but if our goal for our kids is to be gotten by the gospel, not just to get the gospel, I saw one kid that was devastated by paying off a debt and another kid that was like righteously ready to see the debt paid off.
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And so I remember looking at Braden and saying, Hey, Carson's in tears.
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What if I took Carson's place?
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What if I paid off the debt and I beat and I'll be louder than him, I'll be more obnoxious, you can laugh at me.
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Would that satisfy you, Braden?
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Because you are owed this.
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And Carson, would that be okay if I took your place?
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And Carson's like, yeah, yeah.
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I mean, he was like just crying.
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And Braden's like, This is great.
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I get something even better beyond.
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And I remember doing that, um, and it was this beautiful moment for me, and I think you took the lead from there.
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I did it, and then you just said, Hey, this is kind of what Jesus has done for us.
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He satisfies the debt, he pays rice.
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And it wasn't some big long Romans road, which is a beautiful sequence of scripture, but it was an age-appropriate way to help them build in their schema of, oh, this is who Jesus is, this is the love of the Father, this is the love of the Son.
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It was really fun to just do it as a family.
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And they still talk about it today.
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Yep.
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It is still part of their uh long-term memory, which I'm thankful for.
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We had a younger couple with us there that had no kids at the time.
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I'm not super sure what they were thinking.
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So we're like, what's happening?
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No.
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But um later, as we reflected, that was impactful for them too, because they watched what it looked like not to lecture, but to model.
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Yeah.
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And that was the difference.
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It was so fun.
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And and really that is the goal, right?
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The goal at the end of the day is to help our kids grow in the understanding of who is God and how there's actually more joy in him than anything else.
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Yep.
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And I've uh as I've uh raised children in the church, I've watched essentially the church take two, there's two different pathways that people take.
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One is um to instill the rules and regulations that we see that are good, they're good behavior, but the goal is to craft behavior.
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And I see another one where we invite them into this critical thinking and more of the why behind the what.
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Um and the goal is to develop character that then develops behavior.
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And I know people in both camps that are doing, and I know kids that are coming out awesome in both camps, just to be clear.
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But for our parenting style, what I've watched Jesus do most when I read scripture is he always builds relationship into invitation before he gets to rules and regulations because character that's developed, you don't even have to talk about the behavior.
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Yeah, it comes.
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And that's what we mean when we say that vision is is caught, not taught.
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We're not we're both teachers, literally, both teaching at the university level.
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And like we love information, but transformation does happen when we're in the journey and the process together.
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It's that 18-year camping trip that we're really playing.
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It's the long obedience in the same direction.
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Yeah, and so it would be easier for me as a parent to simply say, do it because I said so.
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100%.
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That is, I can't tell you how many times where I will say, uh, you know, let's get ready for baseball, and they're like, why?
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And I'm like, just do it! Yep, right?
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I just want to scream and do it.
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And I mean, this is a silly example, but I have to spend the time to explain the why.
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Then the next time I say that, I never get the why again.
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It's longer, it's harder, it's more time consuming, but it is so worth it when they start to catch the why versus just doing what you say.
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And I feel like you've modeled for me a great example of you don't have to.
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You just might not play the next game if you don't want to go.
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You don't have to make your bed, but here's what might come.
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Like always getting to the why is helping them grow as thinkers, not just obedience, which only feels like it lasts for so long, anyways.
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And the key heart idea is is the heart.
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It's this long obedience in the same direction.
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What's the motivation?
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What's the why behind the what?
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Because life will expand to the size of your why.
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Like I remember being a little kid and hearing the story regularly about I was at the dinner table and I was drinking my milk, and my parents said, You can't be dismissed until you the glass is empty.
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And so my response was great, I knocked the glass over and it was empty, and I held it up and I was like, ta-da! Um, and I was such a little kid, but at a young age, we're learning how to get what we want, how to appease, how to quote unquote hit the mark.
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But we're trying to coach our kids not just to do what we said because we said so, but why.
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And everything we do is for their good and for the glory of God.
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And so that's the real issue.
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We're trying to get the the question behind the question or the why behind the what.
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Okay.
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Um a hundred percent.
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And when I said it was harder and longer, I mean it, and I know how much I'm asking of myself and of us.
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Um, but I'm watching our 19-year-old, 16-year-old, and 12-year-old be able to navigate the world instead of being afraid of the world.
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So good.
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And so I'm not afraid of putting them in the world.
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I've equipped them with tools to navigate it.
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They don't need me next to them saying that's a bad decision or that's a good decision.
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They um are capable of hunting down the why and the what would Jesus do.
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So I'm gonna give you an example of how we've kind of fostered some of this along the way.
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Um, so Carson and I, he was, I don't know, six, maybe seven, and we were in the car, we were driving, he's in the back seat, and as we were driving down the boulevard, um, there was a teenager smoking.
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And I didn't say anything.
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And Carson, I can it got quiet.
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What you fit?
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He's never quiet.
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So, you know, there's that.
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And so it got quiet, and I thought, oh gosh, here we go.
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And uh he goes, Wow, mom, do you see that kid over there?
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And I said, Oh, what kid?
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And he he's like, That kid right there, look at him, he's smoking.
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And he this kid was probably 13.
00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:45.840
And I found myself in this uh predicament momentarily where I thought, man, right now I could scare Carson out of smoking for the rest of his life.
00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:49.519
I could simply say, you're right, that's so gross.
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.360
Why would anybody ever do that?
00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:52.879
What a gross kid.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:54.480
I hope you never become like that.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:56.320
I hope you never have friends like that.
00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:05.120
And I could just absolutely throttle how gross this is and that he should never do it because um I don't want him to.
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:05.440
Right.
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:06.960
It's not good for him.
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:10.639
And I I wouldn't, I would want to help him be healthy.
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:20.080
Or I could do what I did instead, which was that's too bad.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.399
I wonder why he's smoking.
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:30.320
And Carson got really quiet again and he started thinking, and he's like, maybe his mom and dad smokes.
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.559
And I'm like, that's really profound.
00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:33.039
Yeah.
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:35.440
We we do a lot of the things we see modeled.
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:36.240
And he's like, Yeah.
00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:40.480
I said, I wonder why he would find the need to smoke.
00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.679
And then Carson said, and remember he's six or seven at this time.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:47.759
Carson says, I wonder if he's just trying to fit in or be cool with other people.
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.519
I'm like, man, that's a really strong why.
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.360
Um that makes me sad for him that he would have to do that.
00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:58.399
And Carson's like, yeah, that makes me sad for him too.
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.240
I wonder if he has any friends.
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.279
I'm like, oh, I wonder if he has friends.
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.599
And Carson then said, He probably really just needs Jesus.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.440
And I thought, man, buddy, you just nailed it.
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:20.480
I bet he has a really tough family life, or he's really insecure and needs friends, or he's lonely, but at the end of the day, he really needs Jesus.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.640
I wonder what we could do for him now.
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.799
And Carson, his sweet little voice from the back, said, We could pray for him.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.200
And I'm like, that's a great idea.
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:37.200
And so we spent the rest of the car ride praying for this 13-year-old kid who doesn't even know we prayed for him.
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:46.400
But for Carson, he learned that every child, good, bad, every choice they make is made in the image of God and worthy of prayer.
00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:47.200
So good.
00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:54.079
And part of what I love about this is then we get to come home as a family and talk about our day at the dinner table and say, What did you learn?
00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:54.799
What did you see?
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:55.920
What did you experience?
00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.720
And Carson gets to share the story for me as dad, uh, for for Braden.
00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:09.200
Uh and what I love about this, as I just watch you, Jen, be a parent, and I get the privilege of that front row seat literally at the dinner table in the car at times.
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:15.279
It causes me to reflect as a parent and say, Okay, am I seeing this as an opportunity for God's kingdom to come in this moment?
00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:20.559
Like before you corrected or even affirmed his good theology, which is this is bad.
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:21.119
Yeah, sure.
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:25.039
Um, you asked yourself a question, and I just feel like you do it intuitively.
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:28.720
Um, someone like me doesn't because I'm like, just because I said so.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:29.039
Yeah.
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:35.599
And so it's been such a gift to me as a dad, um, as a young dad, growing as a dad, to say, okay, what did you do here?
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:47.599
Like you leaned in, you asked questions, you looked at the deeper lesson, and I just think it's your gifting, which is why, well, I mean, again, I married you for so many reasons, but my growth in Jesus as a parent, I'm a better dad because you're my bride.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.079
Um, and so for you, it's been natural.
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:51.359
For me, it's muscle memory.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:19:02.960
It's like I have to actually see it and think critically and be prepared for, and how do I help my kids see every situation as an invitation to glorify God, to be the living proof of loving God.
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.279
Um, and that's something that I'm thankful for that I want all of us to rethink our thinking.
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:13.200
Um, I I think I'm a better dad because of it, although you did remind me that I still with the dishes say because I said so.
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:16.960
Um and so I'm trying, I'm growing in that, but I I love what you did.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:24.319
You stopped, you prayed, the spirit led through you, and you caused him to not just ask good questions, but think about all the whys behind the what.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:29.680
And now you're relating to the Imago Day for your kid, not just shaming on the brokenness of the Imago Day that's in every kid.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:30.319
Right.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:37.599
So at the end of the day, I'm trying really, really hard never to say because I said so.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:38.079
Right.
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:43.839
There are times where the kids know if I say because I said so, they're in danger and we need to move fast.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:45.200
And so we've talked about it.
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:51.920
But I want them to be formed, uh transformed into the image of Christ.
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.079
Like I want them to imitate him.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.119
That's my greatest goal as a parent.
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:58.400
Uh and that's hard.
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:03.759
But I've I found that Jesus always said the why, and so I'm always going to say the why because the why matters.
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:03.920
Yeah.
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:13.440
When your kids are always like interrupting you or saying why, on some level, it's because they're still growing in their trust of you to say, I can trust your why even if I don't know it yet.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:14.720
But we want you to develop your why.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:15.200
Yep.
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:22.559
And also because they're selfish and want to do their own thing, but they need to have a bigger why than because ice cream sounds good right now.
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.200
And so we always lead with the whys.
00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:30.880
But um, what I'm trying to do, what my invitation looks like, is like I'm pulling them into the process.
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:38.880
I'm allowing them to ask questions, I'm allowing them to wrestle, which we have scripture that God allows us to do that as well.
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:42.160
Um, I'm letting them disagree with respectfully.
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.039
The phrase I use is affirm first and then question.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:45.440
So good.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.519
And so they'll say, I hear what you're saying, mom, but can I ask a question?
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:54.160
And so there's some order in how we respectfully disagree.
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:58.240
And then we sack hands on a solution that ultimately mimics what Jesus did.
00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:00.319
So we we hunt really hard for like, what?
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.240
I wonder what this there's a story there.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:07.920
And um a little bit of a cheat code because we work in the church and we're studying scripture all the time.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:18.880
But um, you know, I would I would say even if you're not working in a church or pastoring, you should be craving scripture in such a way that it just helps guide you in all your choices.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.720
And if you're walking with Jesus as a son or as a daughter, whether you're a pastor or not, it doesn't matter.
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:23.759
You're the pastor of your family.
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:24.079
Yeah.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:29.200
And so you're experiencing and expressing more joy in Jesus, inviting them to follow you as you follow them.
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:37.039
Like, and what I love again is you identified the situation, you stepped into it, you weren't in a hurry to get through it, you weren't in a hurry because I said so.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:39.279
Um, you invited Carson into the process.
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:50.160
And something you've shared with me for decade over a decade now, that's changed the game for me is I am not trying to literally prepare the road for my kid, but I'm trying to prepare the kid for the road.
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:50.480
Yeah.
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:52.160
And that was a game changer for me.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:52.319
Yeah.
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:59.440
Like you didn't rush to answer a question, you actually took more time and asked more questions and helped him say, okay.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.279
Why would I choose this?
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:03.519
And also instead of being judgy, right?
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.880
I'm I'm trying to think, well, how do we get to that spot in our life?
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.599
And this is I actually I'm gonna cut in really quick.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:10.319
I'm so sorry.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:19.200
I actually think that there's a whole nother conversation we can have about what it looks like to prepare the road versus preparing your child.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:31.200
I think that a lot of parents can sack hands on the, yeah, I want to prepare my child for the road, but they don't know how they're accidentally trying to shape the road all the time for their children.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.440
And it comes in tons of different like uh ways.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:40.319
Uh and you know, I've done it too, so like there's no shame in it.
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:54.799
But we want our kid, we feel like it's our job to protect them, and we feel like they're always the victim, and we feel like um the world's against them, and we can accidentally prepare the road, even when we think we're trying to prepare the child.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.200
And so we can just pencil this for another time.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.200
Maybe I will come back and do something else.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:06.319
But um, I think that would be a fun conversation to really dive in and develop, and something that I would maybe challenge you to think about right now.
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.279
Are you preparing your child or are you preparing the road?
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:16.000
And you can know you're preparing the road if you're always fearful to send your child out.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:16.880
That's good.
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:23.519
And and an honest, healthy, humble conversation to say, I'd rather prepare the road than prepare my kid.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:27.039
It's easier, it's just not really effective because at some point they're walking their own roads.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.119
It's not long-term effective, it's short-term effective.
00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:33.759
And it's so helpful to look at the model of Jesus with his spiritual children, his disciples.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:37.119
Uh, it was a long obedience, it was a lot of conversations.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.960
We have some stuff recorded in the gospels, but there were a lot of conversations that weren't like the man smoking on the side of the road, right?
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:44.640
Like this is discipleship.
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.519
And what it isn't, it's not control, it's conversation.
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.599
It's not a lecture, it's lab.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:58.160
Um, and that's what I love about the model that Jesus gave to us, that Jesus did with me and Jen as a son, as a daughter, that he does in our marriage, and then he does it with our babies, right?
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:02.559
It's this invitation to experiencing the joy of Jesus and then reflecting it.
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:22.400
And so every parenting decision that you and I make is for the glory of God and the good of our kids, but it is with a hope that they can see their identity as a son and as a daughter, and that they can understand that they could make decisions to appease us because they know what we want, or they could actually wrestle with what do they want and get to the heart of the issue, which is trusting and treasuring Jesus.
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:28.400
Yeah, this um this transformation thing is a really big deal.
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:37.279
And uh I think it's really important that we remember that we're after the affection of their heart, not the crafting of their behavior.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.359
And so uh we don't do the shoulds or ought to's.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:42.240
I want to.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:43.680
Yeah, it's easier like that.
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:46.640
But it's better if we don't.
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:55.519
And so as we invite them to imitate us, as we imitate the Father, we we have to stay focused on this transformation.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:57.519
Yeah, and they get a front row seat too.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.640
Is there really more joy in Jesus or is there not, right?
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.920
And parenting does change as our kids get older.
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:08.240
Um I mean, it is the same principles, but it starts to look different.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:09.599
Uh, and that's something that I love.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:17.839
Like you do a whole session, we've done it together, and you've done it at women's retreats and marriage conferences, uh, that you call it, and I always say it backwards, but it's a phrases for the phases.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:18.079
Right.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.359
So different phases, but every phase is a sacred space.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:24.079
Your family is your first joy-filled community of faith.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:29.440
And so I would just encourage you, even as you talk about pinning something for later, uh, now that we have it on record that you said you'll come back.
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:30.000
Oh boy.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:37.759
Um, it is we want to have these conversations as family units because I do think that as mom and dad, we're the primary disciple makers of our kids.
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:44.240
We love Hume Lake, we love to send our kids to youth group and to camp, but man, they're getting so much more as they live life with us.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:50.319
And so if you have questions, comments, concerns, things that you're wrestling with, um please send us a DM.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.359
Uh, we would love to hear that so we can interact more with you in the future.
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:56.960
Now, that being said, right now we have a couple more minutes with our DMH family.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:05.119
So, Jen, what are some of those when you think about these three main phases, early, middle, and then older children, um, how do we consider that?
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:05.759
Yeah.
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:10.720
So the core idea behind this phrases for the phases is to create independent thinkers.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:10.960
Yep.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:15.279
Not independent from Jesus, but independent from mom or dad because I said so.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:19.039
In the corner of the room with a little finger kind of waving like that would be a bad choice.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:24.400
Um we can't be their governor all the time if we're gonna send them.
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.640
If they're gonna live in your house forever, suppose you could try to do that.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:27.759
Yeah, but we don't suggest.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:28.480
We don't want that.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:28.799
Yeah.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:34.000
And so the phrases are to uh help them practice making the decisions.
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:39.599
So I am trying to create um uh self-assessors.
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:54.400
So uh an example of one of these phrases uh is you know, the boys are fighting with each other, and uh Carson and Braden, they're going on it, and I'm like, hey, and I stop them and I look at them, and I had two options.
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:57.039
I could either stand over them and lecture them forever.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:58.640
And at this point you were taller than them still.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:26:59.599
I was still taller than them.
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:01.519
And your looks can kill a young boy.
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:02.240
Um okay.
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:05.519
So yes, I can be very strong and stern.
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:07.119
Thank you, Drew, for pointing that out.
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.839
And um I I had that opportunity where I was like, we don't do that to your brother.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:13.200
Why would you absolutely do that?
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:14.240
That's not okay.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.119
You can't be you don't want to be treated like that and you just keep going.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:18.640
And we've watched, we've watched parents do it.
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:26.000
I've done it myself, where you're just going and going and going and going, and you leave and they leave, and they're like, What the heck just happened to mom?
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:28.640
They have no idea what was just said.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:34.960
And I leave being like, oh my gosh, I just released all the adrenaline and cortisol my body has, and I'm so mad at them.
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:35.839
Why would they do that?
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:37.920
And literally, it was a loss.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:43.039
I lectured at them at high energy, and we left with a loss.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.759
And so I kind of changed my tactics.
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:55.920
I just remember this moment and I'm laughing, and most of you guys are listening as you drive or whatever, but Jen is a five foot two Italian woman, and we often joke that when there's four fingers out, you're in trouble.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:56.319
Oh boy.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:58.240
Even as you told the story, there were four fingers.
00:27:58.480 --> 00:27:59.920
It wasn't one, it was four.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.960
So I always know how much trouble I'm in based on the amount of fingers.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.920
But I remember reflecting as a couple after that, um, because the principles aren't changing.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:12.960
I want the glory of God, I want them to grow, I want them to understand, but the application does.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.559
Like how I do what I do is what I'm really focused on.
00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:16.799
Yeah.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.000
Like how to do this.
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.279
And that's really where these phrases came from.
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:21.759
Right.
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:25.279
Um, so at a really young age, we we've got a lot, but what's your favorite one?
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:25.759
Yeah.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:32.960
So uh the second time the boys got in a fight, I said, Hey, stop the situation really fast.
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:37.359
And they looked at the one who had caused it, and I said, Are you being helpful or hurtful right now?
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:38.000
Boom.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:38.960
And that was it.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:40.720
It stopped them in their tracks.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:45.599
They had to self-assess, they had to look at each other, and they had to own something.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:50.319
And Cars or Braden was like, uh hurtful.
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:52.799
And I go, Okay, thanks for being honest.
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:54.559
Do you want to say something to Carson?
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.960
And he's like, I don't like it when you do A, B, and C, but I didn't need to do that.
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:00.720
And now they became communicators.
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:01.039
Right.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:02.160
Like, what?
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:04.640
And so it was accidentally awesome.
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:08.000
They just became better employees, husbands at the age of six.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:08.799
All the things.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:23.519
And so we started practicing these phrases that allowed them to be self-thinkers, self-assessors, um, people who asked for forgiveness, and people who sought uh restoration, and then they were able to move on from there.
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:26.319
And we've watched them do it to their friends in their schools.
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.079
It's changed whole classrooms because of this high school baseball pedology.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.519
Well, and for us at a young age, it was tools in their tool belts.
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:39.680
It was simple language, clear phrases that they could comprehend and actually buy and stack hands.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:40.799
We use that language as a family.
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:42.400
Store in their long-term memory.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:47.519
It was repetition, but it was modeled, not just for them together, but even for us together.
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:47.759
Yeah.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.960
And then as they got older, yeah, things changed a little bit as they got older.
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:52.079
We didn't add more phrases.
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:52.400
Right.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:03.519
Sometimes I think when they were younger, there was a lot of phrases, and when they were older, you could pick one or two things that they were like working on, and they would actually stack hands with, okay, I'm really struggling with being judgy, so what should I say?
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:04.960
And we would come up with different phrases.
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:11.599
And so it was less, less phrases, more dialogue, more explanation, um, more problem solving.
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:14.720
I would say, okay, well, I feel like there's two ways to solve this problem.
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:16.880
Which which way do you see fit?
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:25.920
And they would again revert back to like, well, I mean, I've seen Jesus do this, and um we would talk about it and they would have ownership in it.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:32.880
And and it is fun as they get older, and again, there's so many phrases that we use and different like steps in that process.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:37.759
Um, but for our older kids, it is this conversation, this dialogue, this space that we've created.
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:38.240
Yeah.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:43.440
As they've gotten older, particularly the boys right now, our daughter isn't quite old enough to exercise.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:44.559
She's in the middle years.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:46.960
These the boys are in their older years.
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:58.799
I've I've really reflected on we say in the world we want our boys to uh you know grow up and and be strong leaders and and be confident and independent.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:14.079
But if we don't give them space to actually exercise that muscle and do it in some sort of coaching format, which is what a parent is, they get to help coach, then we send them out into the world and they have to fumble their way through until they find it.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:19.839
And so these last few years, pretty much like 15 through the day we send them.
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:24.000
I start to uh lead from second chair very intentionally.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:33.519
And so they know I'm still the mom and they know that I'm still that Italian mean girl if I need to be, but um they they are brought into more of the decisions.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.839
They're brought into the space where we say, Well, we trust you, what do you think?
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:45.039
Like uh they're setting schedules, they're organizing calendars, they're um deciding uh what parties to go to.
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:46.880
No isn't really the answer.
00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:48.000
It's like, well, what do you think?
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:48.480
Why?
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:53.599
Let's talk about all the the parts, and then they come to their no or their yes.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:53.920
Yeah.
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.240
And um it's scary.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:01.920
Like it is a scary parenting uh method, but you know, it hasn't failed us yet.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:13.920
And um, I believe that's because their character's been developed uh before their skill or before their wants or before their um socialness, like they're hunting down their character to mimic Jesus.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:26.880
And there's so many like tactics and tools that we've done, like making them pay for half of their baseball dues and recycling cans and mowing lawns, and we're giving them opportunities to grow in their responsibilities so that they know what the decision cost is.
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:28.799
They know the why behind the what.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.079
And and here's the big idea with disciples made here someone's always watching.
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:37.920
So this idea of imitate, part of what's so scary, they see our flesh, they see our sin, uh, they see all of that.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.759
And so I'm just quick to say, hey, follow me, guys, as I follow Christ, right?
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:50.000
Like I'm trying to invite them into my walk with Jesus because imitate's gonna take them a lot further than obey because I have to, um, because I said so.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:54.880
The why matters, and that's why Paul says, imitate me as I imitate Christ, not because I said so.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:58.559
Um, and so I'm modeling what does it look like for them to follow me as I follow Christ?
00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:59.920
They get to see repentance.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.519
Um, dad's not the hero.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:03.200
Like, I don't want to be the hero of their life.
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:07.680
I want them to know Jesus is the hero of my life, and following me means they get to follow Jesus.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:09.039
Um, God is the hero.
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:16.799
And so what they see in me then is this brokenness, this transformation, this repentance that I actually think benefits them way more than them thinking that dad's awesome.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.079
No, and you're really good at that.
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:19.279
I'm not so good at that.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:31.680
That's not I'm good at being you're good at being you're good at asking for forgiveness and modeling, I messed up there, and I want to be like, don't do what I do, do what I say.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:32.799
You know, I want to do that.
00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:34.960
You just do genuinely make less mistakes than me.
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:35.680
So that's part of it.
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:38.880
But I've early on as a parent, I was like, I don't have this all figured out.
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:39.279
Yeah.
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:42.720
Not my faith, not my marriage, not my babies.
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.960
And I think that humility drives a follow me as I follow, right?
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:48.960
It allows me to be transparent in that.
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:54.480
Because you've been open to saying, hey, I was wrong here.
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.359
Let me let me restore this relationship with you.
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.640
They've been open to doing that to each other and to us and to everybody.
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:03.200
And I and I love that, right?
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.640
It is about the scorecard.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.880
The language that we use is it's heaven over Harvard.
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:07.119
Yeah.
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:10.000
Um I'm o I'm not opposed to my kids going to Harvard if they get a full ride.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:11.119
Yeah, I don't want to pay for Harvard.
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:13.760
But I don't care if they go to Harvard and they don't go to heaven.
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:14.559
I will hate that.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:16.239
Yeah, that's a big old loss.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:16.639
Yeah.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:19.440
So heaven is the top of our scorecard.
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:20.719
We talk about this at the house.
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:24.079
We either have a kingdom scorecard or a worldly scorecard.
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:29.199
And so uh I think sometimes, even the church, we get those scorecards messed up.
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.480
The the kingdom scorecard is imitating Christ.
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.679
It is heaven, it is relationship with the Father.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.719
That's why he sent Jesus, this restoration of relationship.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:47.920
And so um I we have to be really cautious that we aren't focusing on the worldly scorecard, good grades, a house, a job.
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:48.960
None of those are bad.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.280
Harvard's not bad, but heaven trumps Harvard.
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:56.000
Yeah, and it is about I want you happier tomorrow than you are today, and that's gonna happen in Jesus, not in all those other things.
00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:56.400
Nope.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:34:59.440
That your identity is driven as a son of the king.
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:11.599
Um, and so one thing I feel like my kids have seen in me consistently and in us, um, but with me, with vintage grace, like their pastors' kids, their church planner kids, their disciples made here kids, uh, they consistently see this in me.
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:21.280
They see my brokenness, um, they see God's goodness, uh, they see restoration, that God's loving kindness calls me to repentance, not shame and hiding in the corner.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:27.440
Um, they see restoration in our marriage, even when we fight appropriately in front of them and gets up, we miss this one.
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:32.559
Um, they also see my personal joy and they see the kingdom advancing, and they see what makes dad happy.
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:39.280
Um, not because they saw it on stage, but because they saw it in the kitchen and they saw it on the ball field, um, and they get to understand what this looks like.
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:43.760
And what's fun now is our kids have gotten older is they see themselves as a son and ascent one.
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:45.039
So they have their own pray-watch list.
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:45.280
Yeah.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:51.840
And I get to do with them, I get to be like their wingman in the gospel and be like, you go live out the gospel, and how can I help as a coach?
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:52.880
Or what does this look like?
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:59.280
And this powerful process of us dripping the gospel for 19 years and now getting to participate with them.
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:03.920
And again, this is a whole nother episode, probably, but this idea of like, what are the camping trips?
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.440
We've designed camping trips for our kids.
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:05.679
Sure.
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:15.599
Not literally, because my version of camping is Marriott, um, not actual camping, but like we've done like a 10-year-old trip for our kids to have all the hard conversations about life and brokenness in this world.
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:19.840
We have a 13-year-old mission trip we try to take them on, like really practical, intentional trips.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:26.079
Or 16-year-old, I invite them into a study called Desiring God that I do with a bunch of the men at our church or Voice of the Heart.
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:28.159
How as a man do you know how to deal with your emotions?
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:29.679
Because you're not real men don't cry.
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:31.199
No, I weeping is worship.
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:40.559
And so these have been like placeholders that we've done as a family to help our boys become men and our daughter become again the the son of uh the son and the daughter of the king.
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:47.760
Because parenting is the most sacred discipleship community we're a part of.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:48.880
The hardest and the best.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:52.000
It's um it is the hardest space.
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:57.280
It has made me cry more and be joyful more than any other space in my life.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:01.360
And so I think it's my encouragement when we talk about these things.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:05.920
Uh neither of us are encouraging you to add more to your parenting.
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:09.760
It's about being present and intentional about all of the things.
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:11.679
And I know how tired you are.
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:14.079
Good Lord, I am so tired.
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.119
I want to tell them, just go to bed and we will talk about it in the morning.
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:18.800
But really, I'm not gonna talk about it in the morning.
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:21.519
I'm just done, I'm cooked, I don't want to talk about it anymore.
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:28.480
But I miss that opportunity to invite them to learn Jesus, the world, and their why.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:34.880
And that means I miss an opportunity to shape them and form them into the image of Christ.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:42.239
And so I am uh honored to be a parent and that I get to learn alongside of my children.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:45.039
And I would encourage you to find the algorithm.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:52.639
I know that's a funny word, it's a math word, but find the algorithm of how to respond to each situation that builds affections and not behavior.
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:57.039
Because at the end of the day, we want them to want Jesus and nothing else.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:57.599
Yeah.
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.719
And and I love how you've just been patient with me as a dad.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:02.320
We've been patient as a couple.
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.039
Um, it's not some grandiose like this is it.
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:06.559
Even those trips, don't misunderstand me.
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:08.400
Like, it's not like that's the climax.
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:12.320
It's all the little mundane, and you see it, they're imitating us.
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.599
So that's why your R1 is so important, your relationship with God.
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:17.760
That's why we say abide over achieve.
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:27.519
Um, and my hope is even as we just share in transparency, just some of our fun stories and some of our heartbreaking stories, that again, it does stir things in your heart as a mom or as a dad.
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.679
And maybe you don't have kids, but you're a spiritual parent.
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:31.599
Um, you're inviting people in.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:36.880
Discipleship is not made on a stage on Sundays, it's made on Mondays, wherever it is that you're living.
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.280
And so send us those questions, those comments.
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:46.639
Um, again, it Jen's committed to doing more of these with me, which I appreciate because I do feel like the the church is formed in the home.
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:49.519
Um, that that is your first joy-filled community of faith.
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:54.639
And so we're honored as a couple, as a as a team at Disciples Made here to walk this with you because it does.
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:55.679
It starts at home.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:03.119
Um, it starts everywhere that you live, work, and play, and yet nothing better than going to do that with your kids as your first joyful community of faith.
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:07.039
So we love you guys, and uh, we'll dive in more to the innovation side this next week.
00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:19.679
Hey guys, welcome back to the Disciples Made Here podcast where we've been diving deep into not just the 40,000-foot level of what a disciple is, but really at a four-foot level, how do we make them?
00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:23.199
Um and so we've been three sides into the diamond so far.
00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:25.839
Uh we're talking about identify, invite, and imitate.
00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:35.679
And so last week, as Heather and I landed the plane for imitate, we thought, man, what would it be like for us to pause, have a guest episode to talk about how does this get played out in our everyday rhythms of life?
00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:41.520
Um, and specifically our first joy filled community of faith is for me with my bride and then with my babies, like our families.
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:46.320
So so often we've used spiritual parenting as a metaphor for what disciple making is.
00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:49.759
It's Ephesians 4, where Paul says, I want to raise people up.
00:00:49.840 --> 00:00:53.200
So for me, it's little Andrew becoming more transformed into mature manhood.
00:00:53.280 --> 00:01:01.039
And then as a dad, how do I help Braden and Carson and Peyton that parenting is not some side category of discipleship, it is discipleship.
00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:02.079
And so I love that.
00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:07.439
So today the hope is that we're gonna slow down, ask some questions of Jen, share some stories as a family.
00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:10.560
And so it is fun for me to have you as my bride join us.
00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:16.719
I know it's not as fun for you, nope, but thank you for just your grace and willingness to be here to process with us.
00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:17.359
So thank you.
00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:19.519
Okay, well, you're welcome, I suppose.
00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:22.400
We'll see if it's good afterwards, but it doesn't matter.
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.760
Um, okay, so let's just set the tone before we start.
00:01:27.359 --> 00:01:31.280
I am not perfect at parenting.
00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:39.840
I have a lot of experience between being a high school teacher and a college professor and a children's pastor and a parent.
00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:46.959
I've been doing it for 19 years, but in 19 years, everybody might come back and I might say, Don't listen to anything I just said.
00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:48.480
You might say that in 19 years.
00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:49.200
Yeah.
00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:58.480
But um for the most part, we've been students of the word and students of children.
00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:02.799
And we've put those things together and it has um shaped who we are.
00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:07.920
Parenting has changed our very our character, our our everything.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:10.719
And so as we shape them, we're being shaped.
00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:12.400
And so um it's really important.
00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:19.120
But we've learned a lot, and I'm very excited for what we're about to share, but I just want to make sure I'm not coming in as some know at all expert.
00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:27.599
Well, especially because our guest episodes are with experts, and I know you're saying you're not an expert, but I know you are, and I'm thankful for the way that I've learned from you.
00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:33.680
And so for me, uh again, I've shared the story about all I wanted in a bride was someone that would push me towards Christ, and I got that in you.
00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:46.479
As a young pastor, a young preacher and teacher, uh, Jen was a teacher of teachers at Biola University, and so nothing better than getting to preach a sermon, having a teacher on the front row that's like helping you in your teaching, but also you have a child psych background.
00:02:46.719 --> 00:03:03.039
Um, I just learned so much from you, and so I I love that you're doing this with me, because you do do this with me every day of our life, uh, but that we get to do not just as a family, like we do fail forward, like as Jenna have looked at how God has shaped us as sons and daughters through each other in our marriage, but also through being parents.
00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:03.919
Um, and so we are.
00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:11.039
We're here today to fail forward with you, to share some of our learnings, to share some of those stories as a family, but with our disciples made here family.
00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:14.560
And so for me, I'm a why guy, you're a why gal, you've helped me with that.
00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:16.639
The depth of your why determines the length of your what.
00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:21.599
And so, as parents for us, the why is always the glory of God, but it's the good of our kids.
00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:28.479
Like every decision we make, the good ones, the bad ones, the imperfect ones, the why is always for their good, but ultimately for the glory of God.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:36.639
That that's what I want most for them is that like us, they would see their identity being rooted and affirmed in Christ because the world is changing, but he's not.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:37.199
Right.
00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:40.719
Okay, so um I'm a softball girl at heart.
00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:42.159
I played softball through college.
00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.840
So when we talk about the disciples' diamond, I only see it as a baseball diamond.
00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:50.000
So we know there's four sides to a diamond, home to first, first to second, second to third, third to home.
00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:52.319
So between home and first, this is identify.
00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:59.759
And this is where we're praying and watching and watching who God crossed our paths with, and we're identifying those people that we can live intentionally with.
00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:00.000
Right.
00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:08.719
Just make no mistake, I was fully aware that I had children in my stomach, taking away my lungs and hurting my ribs.
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:10.400
And so I didn't have to identify them.
00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:12.960
I knew they were there, they were there part of my life.
00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:13.759
And they showed up.
00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:18.639
And just like that with invite, you don't have to invite them into your home because they're born into your home.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:22.399
And so identifying invite are a little different nuance than the disciples diamond.
00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:25.439
What I'm inviting them into then is just my R1 with Jesus.
00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:27.120
It's just my walk with Jesus.
00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:31.759
Uh as a pastor, they hear me preach, but the best messages aren't on Sunday, they're in our home.
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:33.519
Is there really more joy in Jesus?
00:04:33.680 --> 00:04:39.600
When I invite them in, it's not that they would do what I want them to do, but I'm inviting them into more joy in Jesus.
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:42.399
So identify invite in families, they're there.
00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:42.959
Ta-da!
00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:43.519
Yeah.
00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:54.079
And I think a misconception of invite is we think we're um uh sometimes people use the word invite and really they just mean tell.
00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:55.600
And it's not tell.
00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:57.839
And so we're gonna try to break that down as we go.
00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:03.279
An invitation is not just telling them what to do, think, act, behave.
00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:05.920
It is an invitation into something much bigger.
00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.600
So then once we go from second to third, we get into imitate.
00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:10.160
Right.
00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:19.040
And when they live in your home and they're around you all the time, the good, the bad, and the ugly is potentially being imitated.
00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:23.600
And and that's um humbling and scary all at the same time.
00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:33.199
And so I'm honored to be their mom, and I hope that I'm just hunting down Christ with fervor that they might see that in me.
00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:37.920
Uh, but I am well aware that when I lose my cool, they too are learning from that.
00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:48.800
So imitating's a fun one, but it is um in those imperfections that I think they actually get to see what mercy and grace really are.
00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:49.439
Amen.
00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:52.319
And at some point your kids get a little bit older and you you send them.
00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:55.199
And that's something we've talked about for 18 years.
00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:00.879
Um, we actually have a 19-year-old now, and so we're in the process of sending, and even as we were considering, I'm like, and it's fun.
00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:01.759
And you're like, but is it?
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:02.319
Like, is it fun?
00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:04.079
Like, we love our kids, so still on the fence.
00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:06.800
So the idea of sending them, and this is where Jesus lived this out.
00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:08.720
He, and that'll be next week's episode.
00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:10.000
He did a three-year camping trip.
00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:12.319
We as parents get an 18-year camping trip.
00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:18.560
Not that they stopping our kids after 18, but you get some intense time from zero to 18 that I want you to redeem.
00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:22.240
When we were college pastors, parents would be talking about, I'm gonna lose my kid at 18.
00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:25.759
I'm like, if you raise kids to be independent, you start losing your kids at 16.
00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:27.439
They get their license and they're off.
00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:29.439
Um, and it's a good thing.
00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:40.319
And so for us, it's looking back over 19 years saying, how do we redeem every moment that's right here because they're being equipped as they imitate us, as we imitate Christ, to be sent.
00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:43.279
Um, because sending is real for them, just like it is for us.
00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:50.160
So at the end of the day, the goal is that our kids are rooted in Christ.
00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:54.240
I want them to know the gospel so well.
00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:58.240
I want them to know that they're sinners and Jesus paid the price for that.
00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:05.199
I want them to know that um that God has a bigger calling on their life than just becoming successful.
00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:14.879
But those ideas, the the the gospel story, that is that is a hard concept to grasp at little.
00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:26.560
And we try really hard to people try really hard to force that concept into understanding at a really young age instead of building schema, which is what we do in every other educational setting.
00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:42.560
And so um, I'm gonna tell you a story of just how we've lived out the gospel because we believe that every opportunity is a is a a pathway where we can share what the gospel concept actually is.
00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:46.480
And it's not just for information, but again, transformation of their hearts and opportunity to grow.
00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:46.800
Yeah.
00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:53.920
So we're at the State Capitol building in Sacramento, California, and um, we play this very, very dumb game called odds.
00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:54.639
I love it.
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:55.120
I know.
00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:56.079
Our kids love it.
00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.439
It has gotten me into more trouble um across the world.
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:07.279
I do I've done push-ups in the airports, in international airports, and because I lose all the time at this very silly, stupid game called Odds.
00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:12.639
But they've learned math and they it's essentially a I dare you game, right?
00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:15.439
And so uh someone sets a dare.
00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:19.040
And they say this in what happened at the Capitol building, this is what happened.
00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:32.879
It said, uh well, our older son said, I dare you, Carson, to get up on that at the top of the steps of the Capitol building statue and bang your chest like you're a gorilla.
00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:35.039
And I odds you to do it is how.
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:38.559
Yeah, Peyton's like zero.
00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:39.360
Yeah, nothing.
00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:39.919
One.
00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:45.919
Um and Carson, who can't say no to a big brother, was like, oh, I'll take those odds.
00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.240
And so Carson gets to set the odds because he, you know, if he doesn't want to do it, he can say one in a million.
00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.039
But um, you know, he If he's bold, he picks a low number.
00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:54.399
Yeah, so I think he picks seven.
00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:55.600
He said one through seven.
00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:59.440
And so then we counted it off three, two, one, and they both had to say a number.
00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:09.759
And if they say the exact same number, if the person that dared him says the same number as the person that accepted the dare, then that person loses and they have to go do the dare.
00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:14.159
And so we said three, two, one, and both boys went four.
00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:16.159
And that was it.
00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:20.080
Braden was so thrilled that he just won odds.
00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:20.320
Yep.
00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.440
And Carson just panicked.
00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:29.360
His whole little four-year-old face just a cute four-year-old face, big cheeks, big eyes.
00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:29.919
Yeah.
00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:33.120
He was like, Oh, I don't want to really do that.
00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:40.000
I don't and all of a sudden he was completely afraid to pay his debt.
00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:43.679
Now, at this moment, I would consider this moment being like filled with the Holy Spirit.
00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:47.360
Like, I'm not going into the morning saying, Man, how do I preach the gospel?
00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:52.720
Like every morning the gospel is preached to me when I wake up and look in the mirror and I remember the goodness of God.
00:09:52.879 --> 00:10:03.840
Um, but if our goal for our kids is to be gotten by the gospel, not just to get the gospel, I saw one kid that was devastated by paying off a debt and another kid that was like righteously ready to see the debt paid off.
00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:07.519
And so I remember looking at Braden and saying, Hey, Carson's in tears.
00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:10.000
What if I took Carson's place?
00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:16.000
What if I paid off the debt and I beat and I'll be louder than him, I'll be more obnoxious, you can laugh at me.
00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:18.080
Would that satisfy you, Braden?
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:19.519
Because you are owed this.
00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:22.000
And Carson, would that be okay if I took your place?
00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:23.519
And Carson's like, yeah, yeah.
00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:25.120
I mean, he was like just crying.
00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:26.799
And Braden's like, This is great.
00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:28.960
I get something even better beyond.
00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:34.639
And I remember doing that, um, and it was this beautiful moment for me, and I think you took the lead from there.
00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:38.399
I did it, and then you just said, Hey, this is kind of what Jesus has done for us.
00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.279
He satisfies the debt, he pays rice.
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:53.279
And it wasn't some big long Romans road, which is a beautiful sequence of scripture, but it was an age-appropriate way to help them build in their schema of, oh, this is who Jesus is, this is the love of the Father, this is the love of the Son.
00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:55.200
It was really fun to just do it as a family.
00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:56.480
And they still talk about it today.
00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:56.799
Yep.
00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:00.399
It is still part of their uh long-term memory, which I'm thankful for.
00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:03.440
We had a younger couple with us there that had no kids at the time.
00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.159
I'm not super sure what they were thinking.
00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:07.600
So we're like, what's happening?
00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:08.399
No.
00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:16.000
But um later, as we reflected, that was impactful for them too, because they watched what it looked like not to lecture, but to model.
00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:16.399
Yeah.
00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:17.200
And that was the difference.
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:18.159
It was so fun.
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:19.759
And and really that is the goal, right?
00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:25.440
The goal at the end of the day is to help our kids grow in the understanding of who is God and how there's actually more joy in him than anything else.
00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:25.840
Yep.
00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:33.600
And I've uh as I've uh raised children in the church, I've watched essentially the church take two, there's two different pathways that people take.
00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:44.240
One is um to instill the rules and regulations that we see that are good, they're good behavior, but the goal is to craft behavior.
00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:51.519
And I see another one where we invite them into this critical thinking and more of the why behind the what.
00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:56.960
Um and the goal is to develop character that then develops behavior.
00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:05.200
And I know people in both camps that are doing, and I know kids that are coming out awesome in both camps, just to be clear.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:21.279
But for our parenting style, what I've watched Jesus do most when I read scripture is he always builds relationship into invitation before he gets to rules and regulations because character that's developed, you don't even have to talk about the behavior.
00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:22.000
Yeah, it comes.
00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.440
And that's what we mean when we say that vision is is caught, not taught.
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:29.279
We're not we're both teachers, literally, both teaching at the university level.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:35.279
And like we love information, but transformation does happen when we're in the journey and the process together.
00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:37.919
It's that 18-year camping trip that we're really playing.
00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.080
It's the long obedience in the same direction.
00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:46.000
Yeah, and so it would be easier for me as a parent to simply say, do it because I said so.
00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:46.559
100%.
00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:54.240
That is, I can't tell you how many times where I will say, uh, you know, let's get ready for baseball, and they're like, why?
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.159
And I'm like, just do it! Yep, right?
00:12:56.240 --> 00:12:57.840
I just want to scream and do it.
00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:02.879
And I mean, this is a silly example, but I have to spend the time to explain the why.
00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:06.080
Then the next time I say that, I never get the why again.
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:16.080
It's longer, it's harder, it's more time consuming, but it is so worth it when they start to catch the why versus just doing what you say.
00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.000
And I feel like you've modeled for me a great example of you don't have to.
00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.639
You just might not play the next game if you don't want to go.
00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:25.039
You don't have to make your bed, but here's what might come.
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:33.200
Like always getting to the why is helping them grow as thinkers, not just obedience, which only feels like it lasts for so long, anyways.
00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.279
And the key heart idea is is the heart.
00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:37.519
It's this long obedience in the same direction.
00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:38.399
What's the motivation?
00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:39.679
What's the why behind the what?
00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:41.919
Because life will expand to the size of your why.
00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:52.240
Like I remember being a little kid and hearing the story regularly about I was at the dinner table and I was drinking my milk, and my parents said, You can't be dismissed until you the glass is empty.
00:13:52.639 --> 00:14:04.399
And so my response was great, I knocked the glass over and it was empty, and I held it up and I was like, ta-da! Um, and I was such a little kid, but at a young age, we're learning how to get what we want, how to appease, how to quote unquote hit the mark.
00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:08.559
But we're trying to coach our kids not just to do what we said because we said so, but why.
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.039
And everything we do is for their good and for the glory of God.
00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:12.720
And so that's the real issue.
00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:16.559
We're trying to get the the question behind the question or the why behind the what.
00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:17.200
Okay.
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:19.120
Um a hundred percent.
00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:25.679
And when I said it was harder and longer, I mean it, and I know how much I'm asking of myself and of us.
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:34.960
Um, but I'm watching our 19-year-old, 16-year-old, and 12-year-old be able to navigate the world instead of being afraid of the world.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:35.600
So good.
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.240
And so I'm not afraid of putting them in the world.
00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:40.720
I've equipped them with tools to navigate it.
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:45.759
They don't need me next to them saying that's a bad decision or that's a good decision.
00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:50.559
They um are capable of hunting down the why and the what would Jesus do.
00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:55.360
So I'm gonna give you an example of how we've kind of fostered some of this along the way.
00:14:55.519 --> 00:15:07.919
Um, so Carson and I, he was, I don't know, six, maybe seven, and we were in the car, we were driving, he's in the back seat, and as we were driving down the boulevard, um, there was a teenager smoking.
00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:09.440
And I didn't say anything.
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:11.840
And Carson, I can it got quiet.
00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:12.639
What you fit?
00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:13.840
He's never quiet.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:14.879
So, you know, there's that.
00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:17.919
And so it got quiet, and I thought, oh gosh, here we go.
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.559
And uh he goes, Wow, mom, do you see that kid over there?
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:24.720
And I said, Oh, what kid?
00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:29.279
And he he's like, That kid right there, look at him, he's smoking.
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:31.440
And he this kid was probably 13.
00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:45.840
And I found myself in this uh predicament momentarily where I thought, man, right now I could scare Carson out of smoking for the rest of his life.
00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:49.519
I could simply say, you're right, that's so gross.
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:51.360
Why would anybody ever do that?
00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:52.879
What a gross kid.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:54.480
I hope you never become like that.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:56.320
I hope you never have friends like that.
00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:05.120
And I could just absolutely throttle how gross this is and that he should never do it because um I don't want him to.
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:05.440
Right.
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:06.960
It's not good for him.
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:10.639
And I I wouldn't, I would want to help him be healthy.
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:20.080
Or I could do what I did instead, which was that's too bad.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:22.399
I wonder why he's smoking.
00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:30.320
And Carson got really quiet again and he started thinking, and he's like, maybe his mom and dad smokes.
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.559
And I'm like, that's really profound.
00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:33.039
Yeah.
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:35.440
We we do a lot of the things we see modeled.
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:36.240
And he's like, Yeah.
00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:40.480
I said, I wonder why he would find the need to smoke.
00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:43.679
And then Carson said, and remember he's six or seven at this time.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:47.759
Carson says, I wonder if he's just trying to fit in or be cool with other people.
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.519
I'm like, man, that's a really strong why.
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.360
Um that makes me sad for him that he would have to do that.
00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:58.399
And Carson's like, yeah, that makes me sad for him too.
00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.240
I wonder if he has any friends.
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.279
I'm like, oh, I wonder if he has friends.
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.599
And Carson then said, He probably really just needs Jesus.
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.440
And I thought, man, buddy, you just nailed it.
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:20.480
I bet he has a really tough family life, or he's really insecure and needs friends, or he's lonely, but at the end of the day, he really needs Jesus.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.640
I wonder what we could do for him now.
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.799
And Carson, his sweet little voice from the back, said, We could pray for him.
00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.200
And I'm like, that's a great idea.
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:37.200
And so we spent the rest of the car ride praying for this 13-year-old kid who doesn't even know we prayed for him.
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:46.400
But for Carson, he learned that every child, good, bad, every choice they make is made in the image of God and worthy of prayer.
00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:47.200
So good.
00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:54.079
And part of what I love about this is then we get to come home as a family and talk about our day at the dinner table and say, What did you learn?
00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:54.799
What did you see?
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:55.920
What did you experience?
00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.720
And Carson gets to share the story for me as dad, uh, for for Braden.
00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:09.200
Uh and what I love about this, as I just watch you, Jen, be a parent, and I get the privilege of that front row seat literally at the dinner table in the car at times.
00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:15.279
It causes me to reflect as a parent and say, Okay, am I seeing this as an opportunity for God's kingdom to come in this moment?
00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:20.559
Like before you corrected or even affirmed his good theology, which is this is bad.
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:21.119
Yeah, sure.
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:25.039
Um, you asked yourself a question, and I just feel like you do it intuitively.
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:28.720
Um, someone like me doesn't because I'm like, just because I said so.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:29.039
Yeah.
00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:35.599
And so it's been such a gift to me as a dad, um, as a young dad, growing as a dad, to say, okay, what did you do here?
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:47.599
Like you leaned in, you asked questions, you looked at the deeper lesson, and I just think it's your gifting, which is why, well, I mean, again, I married you for so many reasons, but my growth in Jesus as a parent, I'm a better dad because you're my bride.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.079
Um, and so for you, it's been natural.
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:51.359
For me, it's muscle memory.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:19:02.960
It's like I have to actually see it and think critically and be prepared for, and how do I help my kids see every situation as an invitation to glorify God, to be the living proof of loving God.
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.279
Um, and that's something that I'm thankful for that I want all of us to rethink our thinking.
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:13.200
Um, I I think I'm a better dad because of it, although you did remind me that I still with the dishes say because I said so.
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:16.960
Um and so I'm trying, I'm growing in that, but I I love what you did.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:24.319
You stopped, you prayed, the spirit led through you, and you caused him to not just ask good questions, but think about all the whys behind the what.
00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:29.680
And now you're relating to the Imago Day for your kid, not just shaming on the brokenness of the Imago Day that's in every kid.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:30.319
Right.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:37.599
So at the end of the day, I'm trying really, really hard never to say because I said so.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:38.079
Right.
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:43.839
There are times where the kids know if I say because I said so, they're in danger and we need to move fast.
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:45.200
And so we've talked about it.
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:51.920
But I want them to be formed, uh transformed into the image of Christ.
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.079
Like I want them to imitate him.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.119
That's my greatest goal as a parent.
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:58.400
Uh and that's hard.
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:03.759
But I've I found that Jesus always said the why, and so I'm always going to say the why because the why matters.
00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:03.920
Yeah.
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:13.440
When your kids are always like interrupting you or saying why, on some level, it's because they're still growing in their trust of you to say, I can trust your why even if I don't know it yet.
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:14.720
But we want you to develop your why.
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:15.200
Yep.
00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:22.559
And also because they're selfish and want to do their own thing, but they need to have a bigger why than because ice cream sounds good right now.
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.200
And so we always lead with the whys.
00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:30.880
But um, what I'm trying to do, what my invitation looks like, is like I'm pulling them into the process.
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:38.880
I'm allowing them to ask questions, I'm allowing them to wrestle, which we have scripture that God allows us to do that as well.
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:42.160
Um, I'm letting them disagree with respectfully.
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.039
The phrase I use is affirm first and then question.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:45.440
So good.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.519
And so they'll say, I hear what you're saying, mom, but can I ask a question?
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:54.160
And so there's some order in how we respectfully disagree.
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:58.240
And then we sack hands on a solution that ultimately mimics what Jesus did.
00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:00.319
So we we hunt really hard for like, what?
00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.240
I wonder what this there's a story there.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:07.920
And um a little bit of a cheat code because we work in the church and we're studying scripture all the time.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:18.880
But um, you know, I would I would say even if you're not working in a church or pastoring, you should be craving scripture in such a way that it just helps guide you in all your choices.
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.720
And if you're walking with Jesus as a son or as a daughter, whether you're a pastor or not, it doesn't matter.
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:23.759
You're the pastor of your family.
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:24.079
Yeah.
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:29.200
And so you're experiencing and expressing more joy in Jesus, inviting them to follow you as you follow them.
00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:37.039
Like, and what I love again is you identified the situation, you stepped into it, you weren't in a hurry to get through it, you weren't in a hurry because I said so.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:39.279
Um, you invited Carson into the process.
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:50.160
And something you've shared with me for decade over a decade now, that's changed the game for me is I am not trying to literally prepare the road for my kid, but I'm trying to prepare the kid for the road.
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:50.480
Yeah.
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:52.160
And that was a game changer for me.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:52.319
Yeah.
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:59.440
Like you didn't rush to answer a question, you actually took more time and asked more questions and helped him say, okay.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.279
Why would I choose this?
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:03.519
And also instead of being judgy, right?
00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.880
I'm I'm trying to think, well, how do we get to that spot in our life?
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:09.599
And this is I actually I'm gonna cut in really quick.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:10.319
I'm so sorry.
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:19.200
I actually think that there's a whole nother conversation we can have about what it looks like to prepare the road versus preparing your child.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:31.200
I think that a lot of parents can sack hands on the, yeah, I want to prepare my child for the road, but they don't know how they're accidentally trying to shape the road all the time for their children.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.440
And it comes in tons of different like uh ways.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:40.319
Uh and you know, I've done it too, so like there's no shame in it.
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:54.799
But we want our kid, we feel like it's our job to protect them, and we feel like they're always the victim, and we feel like um the world's against them, and we can accidentally prepare the road, even when we think we're trying to prepare the child.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.200
And so we can just pencil this for another time.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.200
Maybe I will come back and do something else.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:06.319
But um, I think that would be a fun conversation to really dive in and develop, and something that I would maybe challenge you to think about right now.
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.279
Are you preparing your child or are you preparing the road?
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:16.000
And you can know you're preparing the road if you're always fearful to send your child out.
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:16.880
That's good.
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:23.519
And and an honest, healthy, humble conversation to say, I'd rather prepare the road than prepare my kid.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:27.039
It's easier, it's just not really effective because at some point they're walking their own roads.
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.119
It's not long-term effective, it's short-term effective.
00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:33.759
And it's so helpful to look at the model of Jesus with his spiritual children, his disciples.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:37.119
Uh, it was a long obedience, it was a lot of conversations.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.960
We have some stuff recorded in the gospels, but there were a lot of conversations that weren't like the man smoking on the side of the road, right?
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:44.640
Like this is discipleship.
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.519
And what it isn't, it's not control, it's conversation.
00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.599
It's not a lecture, it's lab.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:58.160
Um, and that's what I love about the model that Jesus gave to us, that Jesus did with me and Jen as a son, as a daughter, that he does in our marriage, and then he does it with our babies, right?
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:02.559
It's this invitation to experiencing the joy of Jesus and then reflecting it.
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:22.400
And so every parenting decision that you and I make is for the glory of God and the good of our kids, but it is with a hope that they can see their identity as a son and as a daughter, and that they can understand that they could make decisions to appease us because they know what we want, or they could actually wrestle with what do they want and get to the heart of the issue, which is trusting and treasuring Jesus.
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:28.400
Yeah, this um this transformation thing is a really big deal.
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:37.279
And uh I think it's really important that we remember that we're after the affection of their heart, not the crafting of their behavior.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.359
And so uh we don't do the shoulds or ought to's.
00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:42.240
I want to.
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:43.680
Yeah, it's easier like that.
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:46.640
But it's better if we don't.
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:55.519
And so as we invite them to imitate us, as we imitate the Father, we we have to stay focused on this transformation.
00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:57.519
Yeah, and they get a front row seat too.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.640
Is there really more joy in Jesus or is there not, right?
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.920
And parenting does change as our kids get older.
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:08.240
Um I mean, it is the same principles, but it starts to look different.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:09.599
Uh, and that's something that I love.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:17.839
Like you do a whole session, we've done it together, and you've done it at women's retreats and marriage conferences, uh, that you call it, and I always say it backwards, but it's a phrases for the phases.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:18.079
Right.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.359
So different phases, but every phase is a sacred space.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:24.079
Your family is your first joy-filled community of faith.
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:29.440
And so I would just encourage you, even as you talk about pinning something for later, uh, now that we have it on record that you said you'll come back.
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:30.000
Oh boy.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:37.759
Um, it is we want to have these conversations as family units because I do think that as mom and dad, we're the primary disciple makers of our kids.
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:44.240
We love Hume Lake, we love to send our kids to youth group and to camp, but man, they're getting so much more as they live life with us.
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:50.319
And so if you have questions, comments, concerns, things that you're wrestling with, um please send us a DM.
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.359
Uh, we would love to hear that so we can interact more with you in the future.
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:56.960
Now, that being said, right now we have a couple more minutes with our DMH family.
00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:05.119
So, Jen, what are some of those when you think about these three main phases, early, middle, and then older children, um, how do we consider that?
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:05.759
Yeah.
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:10.720
So the core idea behind this phrases for the phases is to create independent thinkers.
00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:10.960
Yep.
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:15.279
Not independent from Jesus, but independent from mom or dad because I said so.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:19.039
In the corner of the room with a little finger kind of waving like that would be a bad choice.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:24.400
Um we can't be their governor all the time if we're gonna send them.
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.640
If they're gonna live in your house forever, suppose you could try to do that.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:27.759
Yeah, but we don't suggest.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:28.480
We don't want that.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:28.799
Yeah.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:34.000
And so the phrases are to uh help them practice making the decisions.
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:39.599
So I am trying to create um uh self-assessors.
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:54.400
So uh an example of one of these phrases uh is you know, the boys are fighting with each other, and uh Carson and Braden, they're going on it, and I'm like, hey, and I stop them and I look at them, and I had two options.
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:57.039
I could either stand over them and lecture them forever.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:58.640
And at this point you were taller than them still.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:26:59.599
I was still taller than them.
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:01.519
And your looks can kill a young boy.
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:02.240
Um okay.
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:05.519
So yes, I can be very strong and stern.
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:07.119
Thank you, Drew, for pointing that out.
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.839
And um I I had that opportunity where I was like, we don't do that to your brother.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:13.200
Why would you absolutely do that?
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:14.240
That's not okay.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.119
You can't be you don't want to be treated like that and you just keep going.
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:18.640
And we've watched, we've watched parents do it.
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:26.000
I've done it myself, where you're just going and going and going and going, and you leave and they leave, and they're like, What the heck just happened to mom?
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:28.640
They have no idea what was just said.
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:34.960
And I leave being like, oh my gosh, I just released all the adrenaline and cortisol my body has, and I'm so mad at them.
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:35.839
Why would they do that?
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:37.920
And literally, it was a loss.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:43.039
I lectured at them at high energy, and we left with a loss.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.759
And so I kind of changed my tactics.
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:55.920
I just remember this moment and I'm laughing, and most of you guys are listening as you drive or whatever, but Jen is a five foot two Italian woman, and we often joke that when there's four fingers out, you're in trouble.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:56.319
Oh boy.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:58.240
Even as you told the story, there were four fingers.
00:27:58.480 --> 00:27:59.920
It wasn't one, it was four.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.960
So I always know how much trouble I'm in based on the amount of fingers.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.920
But I remember reflecting as a couple after that, um, because the principles aren't changing.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:12.960
I want the glory of God, I want them to grow, I want them to understand, but the application does.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.559
Like how I do what I do is what I'm really focused on.
00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:16.799
Yeah.
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:18.000
Like how to do this.
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.279
And that's really where these phrases came from.
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:21.759
Right.
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:25.279
Um, so at a really young age, we we've got a lot, but what's your favorite one?
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:25.759
Yeah.
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:32.960
So uh the second time the boys got in a fight, I said, Hey, stop the situation really fast.
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:37.359
And they looked at the one who had caused it, and I said, Are you being helpful or hurtful right now?
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:38.000
Boom.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:38.960
And that was it.
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:40.720
It stopped them in their tracks.
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:45.599
They had to self-assess, they had to look at each other, and they had to own something.
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:50.319
And Cars or Braden was like, uh hurtful.
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:52.799
And I go, Okay, thanks for being honest.
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:54.559
Do you want to say something to Carson?
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.960
And he's like, I don't like it when you do A, B, and C, but I didn't need to do that.
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:00.720
And now they became communicators.
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:01.039
Right.
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:02.160
Like, what?
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:04.640
And so it was accidentally awesome.
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:08.000
They just became better employees, husbands at the age of six.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:08.799
All the things.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:23.519
And so we started practicing these phrases that allowed them to be self-thinkers, self-assessors, um, people who asked for forgiveness, and people who sought uh restoration, and then they were able to move on from there.
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:26.319
And we've watched them do it to their friends in their schools.
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.079
It's changed whole classrooms because of this high school baseball pedology.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.519
Well, and for us at a young age, it was tools in their tool belts.
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:39.680
It was simple language, clear phrases that they could comprehend and actually buy and stack hands.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:40.799
We use that language as a family.
00:29:41.440 --> 00:29:42.400
Store in their long-term memory.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:47.519
It was repetition, but it was modeled, not just for them together, but even for us together.
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:47.759
Yeah.
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.960
And then as they got older, yeah, things changed a little bit as they got older.
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:52.079
We didn't add more phrases.
00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:52.400
Right.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:03.519
Sometimes I think when they were younger, there was a lot of phrases, and when they were older, you could pick one or two things that they were like working on, and they would actually stack hands with, okay, I'm really struggling with being judgy, so what should I say?
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:04.960
And we would come up with different phrases.
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:11.599
And so it was less, less phrases, more dialogue, more explanation, um, more problem solving.
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:14.720
I would say, okay, well, I feel like there's two ways to solve this problem.
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:16.880
Which which way do you see fit?
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:25.920
And they would again revert back to like, well, I mean, I've seen Jesus do this, and um we would talk about it and they would have ownership in it.
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:32.880
And and it is fun as they get older, and again, there's so many phrases that we use and different like steps in that process.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:37.759
Um, but for our older kids, it is this conversation, this dialogue, this space that we've created.
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:38.240
Yeah.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:43.440
As they've gotten older, particularly the boys right now, our daughter isn't quite old enough to exercise.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:44.559
She's in the middle years.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:46.960
These the boys are in their older years.
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:58.799
I've I've really reflected on we say in the world we want our boys to uh you know grow up and and be strong leaders and and be confident and independent.
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:14.079
But if we don't give them space to actually exercise that muscle and do it in some sort of coaching format, which is what a parent is, they get to help coach, then we send them out into the world and they have to fumble their way through until they find it.
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:19.839
And so these last few years, pretty much like 15 through the day we send them.
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:24.000
I start to uh lead from second chair very intentionally.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:33.519
And so they know I'm still the mom and they know that I'm still that Italian mean girl if I need to be, but um they they are brought into more of the decisions.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.839
They're brought into the space where we say, Well, we trust you, what do you think?
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:45.039
Like uh they're setting schedules, they're organizing calendars, they're um deciding uh what parties to go to.
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:46.880
No isn't really the answer.
00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:48.000
It's like, well, what do you think?
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:48.480
Why?
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:53.599
Let's talk about all the the parts, and then they come to their no or their yes.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:53.920
Yeah.
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.240
And um it's scary.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:01.920
Like it is a scary parenting uh method, but you know, it hasn't failed us yet.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:13.920
And um, I believe that's because their character's been developed uh before their skill or before their wants or before their um socialness, like they're hunting down their character to mimic Jesus.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:26.880
And there's so many like tactics and tools that we've done, like making them pay for half of their baseball dues and recycling cans and mowing lawns, and we're giving them opportunities to grow in their responsibilities so that they know what the decision cost is.
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:28.799
They know the why behind the what.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.079
And and here's the big idea with disciples made here someone's always watching.
00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:37.920
So this idea of imitate, part of what's so scary, they see our flesh, they see our sin, uh, they see all of that.
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.759
And so I'm just quick to say, hey, follow me, guys, as I follow Christ, right?
00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:50.000
Like I'm trying to invite them into my walk with Jesus because imitate's gonna take them a lot further than obey because I have to, um, because I said so.
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:54.880
The why matters, and that's why Paul says, imitate me as I imitate Christ, not because I said so.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:58.559
Um, and so I'm modeling what does it look like for them to follow me as I follow Christ?
00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:59.920
They get to see repentance.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:01.519
Um, dad's not the hero.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:03.200
Like, I don't want to be the hero of their life.
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:07.680
I want them to know Jesus is the hero of my life, and following me means they get to follow Jesus.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:09.039
Um, God is the hero.
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:16.799
And so what they see in me then is this brokenness, this transformation, this repentance that I actually think benefits them way more than them thinking that dad's awesome.
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:18.079
No, and you're really good at that.
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:19.279
I'm not so good at that.
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:31.680
That's not I'm good at being you're good at being you're good at asking for forgiveness and modeling, I messed up there, and I want to be like, don't do what I do, do what I say.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:32.799
You know, I want to do that.
00:33:32.960 --> 00:33:34.960
You just do genuinely make less mistakes than me.
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:35.680
So that's part of it.
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:38.880
But I've early on as a parent, I was like, I don't have this all figured out.
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:39.279
Yeah.
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:42.720
Not my faith, not my marriage, not my babies.
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.960
And I think that humility drives a follow me as I follow, right?
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:48.960
It allows me to be transparent in that.
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:54.480
Because you've been open to saying, hey, I was wrong here.
00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.359
Let me let me restore this relationship with you.
00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:00.640
They've been open to doing that to each other and to us and to everybody.
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:03.200
And I and I love that, right?
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.640
It is about the scorecard.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.880
The language that we use is it's heaven over Harvard.
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:07.119
Yeah.
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:10.000
Um I'm o I'm not opposed to my kids going to Harvard if they get a full ride.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:11.119
Yeah, I don't want to pay for Harvard.
00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:13.760
But I don't care if they go to Harvard and they don't go to heaven.
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:14.559
I will hate that.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:16.239
Yeah, that's a big old loss.
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:16.639
Yeah.
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:19.440
So heaven is the top of our scorecard.
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:20.719
We talk about this at the house.
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:24.079
We either have a kingdom scorecard or a worldly scorecard.
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:29.199
And so uh I think sometimes, even the church, we get those scorecards messed up.
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.480
The the kingdom scorecard is imitating Christ.
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.679
It is heaven, it is relationship with the Father.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.719
That's why he sent Jesus, this restoration of relationship.
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:47.920
And so um I we have to be really cautious that we aren't focusing on the worldly scorecard, good grades, a house, a job.
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:48.960
None of those are bad.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:51.280
Harvard's not bad, but heaven trumps Harvard.
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:56.000
Yeah, and it is about I want you happier tomorrow than you are today, and that's gonna happen in Jesus, not in all those other things.
00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:56.400
Nope.
00:34:56.639 --> 00:34:59.440
That your identity is driven as a son of the king.
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:11.599
Um, and so one thing I feel like my kids have seen in me consistently and in us, um, but with me, with vintage grace, like their pastors' kids, their church planner kids, their disciples made here kids, uh, they consistently see this in me.
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:21.280
They see my brokenness, um, they see God's goodness, uh, they see restoration, that God's loving kindness calls me to repentance, not shame and hiding in the corner.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:27.440
Um, they see restoration in our marriage, even when we fight appropriately in front of them and gets up, we miss this one.
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:32.559
Um, they also see my personal joy and they see the kingdom advancing, and they see what makes dad happy.
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:39.280
Um, not because they saw it on stage, but because they saw it in the kitchen and they saw it on the ball field, um, and they get to understand what this looks like.
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:43.760
And what's fun now is our kids have gotten older is they see themselves as a son and ascent one.
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:45.039
So they have their own pray-watch list.
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:45.280
Yeah.
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:51.840
And I get to do with them, I get to be like their wingman in the gospel and be like, you go live out the gospel, and how can I help as a coach?
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:52.880
Or what does this look like?
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:59.280
And this powerful process of us dripping the gospel for 19 years and now getting to participate with them.
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:03.920
And again, this is a whole nother episode, probably, but this idea of like, what are the camping trips?
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.440
We've designed camping trips for our kids.
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:05.679
Sure.
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:15.599
Not literally, because my version of camping is Marriott, um, not actual camping, but like we've done like a 10-year-old trip for our kids to have all the hard conversations about life and brokenness in this world.
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:19.840
We have a 13-year-old mission trip we try to take them on, like really practical, intentional trips.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:26.079
Or 16-year-old, I invite them into a study called Desiring God that I do with a bunch of the men at our church or Voice of the Heart.
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:28.159
How as a man do you know how to deal with your emotions?
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:29.679
Because you're not real men don't cry.
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No, I weeping is worship.
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:40.559
And so these have been like placeholders that we've done as a family to help our boys become men and our daughter become again the the son of uh the son and the daughter of the king.
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:47.760
Because parenting is the most sacred discipleship community we're a part of.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:48.880
The hardest and the best.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:52.000
It's um it is the hardest space.
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:57.280
It has made me cry more and be joyful more than any other space in my life.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:01.360
And so I think it's my encouragement when we talk about these things.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:05.920
Uh neither of us are encouraging you to add more to your parenting.
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:09.760
It's about being present and intentional about all of the things.
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:11.679
And I know how tired you are.
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:14.079
Good Lord, I am so tired.
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.119
I want to tell them, just go to bed and we will talk about it in the morning.
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:18.800
But really, I'm not gonna talk about it in the morning.
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:21.519
I'm just done, I'm cooked, I don't want to talk about it anymore.
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:28.480
But I miss that opportunity to invite them to learn Jesus, the world, and their why.
00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:34.880
And that means I miss an opportunity to shape them and form them into the image of Christ.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:42.239
And so I am uh honored to be a parent and that I get to learn alongside of my children.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:45.039
And I would encourage you to find the algorithm.
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:52.639
I know that's a funny word, it's a math word, but find the algorithm of how to respond to each situation that builds affections and not behavior.
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:57.039
Because at the end of the day, we want them to want Jesus and nothing else.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:57.599
Yeah.
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.719
And and I love how you've just been patient with me as a dad.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:02.320
We've been patient as a couple.
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.039
Um, it's not some grandiose like this is it.
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:06.559
Even those trips, don't misunderstand me.
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:08.400
Like, it's not like that's the climax.
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:12.320
It's all the little mundane, and you see it, they're imitating us.
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.599
So that's why your R1 is so important, your relationship with God.
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:17.760
That's why we say abide over achieve.
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:27.519
Um, and my hope is even as we just share in transparency, just some of our fun stories and some of our heartbreaking stories, that again, it does stir things in your heart as a mom or as a dad.
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.679
And maybe you don't have kids, but you're a spiritual parent.
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:31.599
Um, you're inviting people in.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:36.880
Discipleship is not made on a stage on Sundays, it's made on Mondays, wherever it is that you're living.
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.280
And so send us those questions, those comments.
00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:46.639
Um, again, it Jen's committed to doing more of these with me, which I appreciate because I do feel like the the church is formed in the home.
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:49.519
Um, that that is your first joy-filled community of faith.
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:54.639
And so we're honored as a couple, as a as a team at Disciples Made here to walk this with you because it does.
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:55.679
It starts at home.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:03.119
Um, it starts everywhere that you live, work, and play, and yet nothing better than going to do that with your kids as your first joyful community of faith.
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:07.039
So we love you guys, and uh, we'll dive in more to the innovation side this next week.
