Recording Global Music with Producer Ian Brennan Part 3: Azerbaijan, Malawi, Parchman Prison

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And so on the way back, you know, I'm looking
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because I kind of know where it was, but I don't
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know, you know, not that precisely. You know,
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I knew, OK, it's somewhere in this 20 mile stretch
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or somebody by the side of the road. And then
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fortunately, and the sun was going down, fortunately,
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you know, he was still there. And this was Alfred
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from the band, pulled over and went there and
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talked to him. And, you know, a bunch of kids
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gathered around, you know, hoping. that they're
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going to sell stuff, but also, like, just curious
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what's going on. And Alfred's quite shy, and
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so I asked him, hey, just, if you would, maybe
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play a little song, and, you know, he was a little
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reluctant, and then he did, and it's this incredible
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song that's on the debut record. And, you know,
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it's one of those things, very similar with the
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good ones, where within, like, 20 seconds, it's
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like, no, this, I don't need to hear. You know,
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I don't need to hear a whole song. I don't need
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to hear other songs. This is beautiful. Hi, you're
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listening to Conversations with Musicians with
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Leah Roseman, which I hope inspires you through
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the personal stories of a fascinating diversity
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of musical guests. This is my third conversation
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with Ian Brennan in this mini ongoing series
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with him within my podcast. If you missed parts
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one and two, they are linked in the show notes
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for you. Today you'll hear about how he recorded
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some of the oldest voices in the world in Azerbaijan
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and some of the bonus tracks including the Kronos
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Quartet and the Good Ones. Ayan shared how he
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met the Malawi Mouse Boys and then brought them
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to international attention and what that has
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meant for them. We talked about the Chicago Gunfire
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Survivors Project, Ayan's book Peace by Peace,
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99 Steps Towards Violence Prevention and De -escalation.
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and the powerful Parchman prison albums. At the
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end, I asked him about his Grammy -nominated
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album with Ramblin' Jack Elliott, I Stand Alone.
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In the show notes, you'll find photos from the
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album covers by Ian's wife, the Italian -Rwandan
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filmmaker and photographer Marilena Umuhosa -Deli.
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You'll find the track information for the excerpts
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in the timestamps, and everything is linked in
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the show notes on my website. You can watch the
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video on my YouTube or listen to the podcast
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on your preferred platform. And I've also linked
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the transcript. Have a look at the show notes
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where you'll find all the links, including different
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ways to support this podcast. Please note that
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I've linked suggested episodes you'll find interesting,
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along with other episodes with Ian, each focusing
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on different albums he's recorded. Hi, Ian. So
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glad we could do this again. Yeah, thank you.
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Thank you. Me too. I'll keep reminding listeners
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if they missed previous conversations with Ian,
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they're all linked in the show notes. So this
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is our third interview. I wanted to start with
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Azerbaijan, the Centenarians album. It's quite
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special. And you also worked with other artists
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who did some pretty cool overdubs. So maybe let's
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talk about how that trip got organized and what
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that was like. Yeah, that was one of those things,
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like most of them, that kind of... It takes years,
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I wouldn't say in the planning, but sort of to
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come to be fully realized. And it was a little
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more difficult than some because we needed to
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kind of be sure that we knew where we were going
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and what may be there. So where we went is in
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the Talish Mountains on the border of Iran and
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Azerbaijan. It's a very remote area. Once you
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get up to the main town, it's dirt road networks
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to different villages. And the motivation was
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that they have a museum there, a small cultural
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center about longevity, because they claim to
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have the person who has lived longest that is
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known. You know, this is a disputable claim,
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but also that there are many people that have
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also lived very long lives. you know, over 100
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years, 140, 162, that sort of thing. We unfortunately
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went, ended up going after COVID. So when we
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finally were able to get up there and be there
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and search to meet people, we found out that
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the majority of people had passed away during
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the COVID period. Not necessarily from COVID,
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but I think a lot of them probably because of
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that are undiagnosed. And and it was winter.
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So that made it a little rougher on the roads
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getting there. But it was an extraordinarily
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gratifying, gratifying experience, you know,
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and educational, you know, beyond I think like
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most of these things end up being way beyond
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what we imagined. What did you learn or what
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surprised you about that experience? Well. I
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think just being in the presence of people that
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have that wisdom and are really, in most cases,
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I think, whatever affect they may have once had,
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if they did, maybe they never did. It's a pretty
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rough life, especially the generation that are
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now 100 plus years old. Rural life and without
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electricity, usually without running water, that
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sort of thing. Um, but if they had any, any affect,
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it's certainly been, you know, whittled down
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to their core. And, uh, and so what's left, I
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think in most people is a lot of love and a lot
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of gratitude, um, towards others. And, uh, and
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that's, it's a very moving thing to experience,
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I think in any form, but, but, uh. It was particularly
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moving. Also, you're at a high elevation. So
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probably, you know, that affects your, you know,
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a very high elevation that affects everything
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as well. Yeah. Did you have trouble with the
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fatigue or just being able to walk? Not in this
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case. Maybe in winter it was a little easier.
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Maybe in summer it would have been difficult.
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We had difficulty with the roads, which is a
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pretty common. issue, but maybe these roads in
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a lot of cases were were in some cases were very
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dangerous, especially with the ice and snow and
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We originally went in in a big vehicle, you know,
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and you would think sort of like oh This is you
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know, this is the best you can do, you know,
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like a big four -wheel drive thing And with a
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guy from the city, the capital, which is very
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modern. The capital of Azerbaijan is very modern.
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And this is a stark contrast. In fact, he'd never
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been up there. And everybody said, why are you
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going there? Because the tourists usually go
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in the opposite direction, up into the wine country
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and that sort of thing. But he got stuck, and
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it was bad. I mean, the attempts to get it out
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were quite dangerous. ultimately fortunately
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some locals came by and helped and then after
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that we learned that the best thing to do was
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to get these local taxis that are these old old
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old russian two doors uh you know like hatchbacks
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but with special tires and uh and and the drivers
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in general pretty you know crazy kind of kamikaze
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kind of drivers i suppose um and uh and that's
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how we were able to get to these places and that's
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when we began to meet people you know what was
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you know the same thing often happens you know
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you meet one person and then you meet another
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person and and then in a smaller community people
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start understanding what you're there for and
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become interested and if they feel that it's
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something positive they want to help and so they
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say oh yeah you know there's this person you
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know in a village that's you know to the east
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and and you know you try to reach them and that
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sort of thing I'm curious, what kind of gifts
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do you bring or what kind of advice do you get
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about that sort of cultural knowledge? Well,
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it depends. I try to bring things from where
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I am, you know, things that I think things have
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value when there's something that's not available
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otherwise. So, you know, in more formalized settings,
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meaning when there's a chief, there's often something
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you're supposed to bring, you know, like in.
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when we went to the witch camps, you know, you
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have to bring these nuts to the chief. You know,
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they're not necessarily expensive, but this is
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a necessity, you know, we were told. And so every
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chief that we visited, we would bring these to
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them. And we were fortunate. I think maybe that's
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generally the case, but we were fortunate that
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they were all very nice. You know, they weren't
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at all, you wouldn't think they were a chief
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necessarily. I mean, they were certainly more
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arrogant. But in other cases, we just try to
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bring, you know, things from where we are. And
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there's this one cookie that's easy to carry,
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meaning that it's not just that it's not heavy,
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but it doesn't break easily, the way it's packaged.
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And it has a poetic name, which is, in Italian,
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is holes in the snow. And it was my mom's favorite
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cookie. So, you know, when we would bring it
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to her. So I always bring it to people and say,
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this is... you know, was my mom's favorite cookie.
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And it's a way of kind of bringing her, you know,
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into, you know, grounding me as well as in the
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environment. Okay. There are a lot of short tracks
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for people that haven't heard it, like 22, and
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there's these bonus tracks with artists that
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you've collaborated with. But I wanted to start
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maybe even the first track, My Life is Good,
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It is Like a Flower. It's an elder woman singing.
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Alulam nanay nanay, Zulfiyam tshama balay, Huwa
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ashkabon, Zulfiyam tshama balay. I'm curious,
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is she on the album cover? Do you know? No, she's
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not. The woman that's on the album cover was
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able to communicate a little, but not a lot.
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Some of the much, much, much older people struggled
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more. And yeah, so there were some beautiful
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Taoist folk songs that were done. And then otherwise,
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it was mostly people talking about their experience.
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or singing songs that they remembered, snippets
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of songs that they remembered, and then using
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elements from the environment. So there's a lot
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of agricultural tools on the album, because there's
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some pretty elaborate ones still, like big things
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that look like a seesaw to crush wheat and that
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sort of thing. Okay. Were you suggesting that,
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to use those? No, I mean, not suggesting, but
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just... I'm always interested in what's there.
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I mean, because musical instruments in general
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weren't available. I mean, there was someone
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that played flute and, you know, a few other,
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you know, flat drums, your frame drum, you know,
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which is almost everywhere. But otherwise, there
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weren't a lot of instruments. But I'm most interested
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in the voice anyway. I really like acapella singing,
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you know, but. in terms of albums worth of material
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i think having color coloration is important
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otherwise people just dismiss it as other and
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and and you know you know ethnic or quote unquote
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world music and for me these records are are
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really maybe they're all those things but they're
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none of those things i i really think that it's
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modern music these are these are living people
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and this is their music They just happen to be
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rural people, but I don't think that that makes
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what they do any less relevant because they're
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not using electricity. And I really, actually,
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I like the track five, Bull Bull Nightingale
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with the frame drum because I really like frame
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drum. And I have to admit, my first assumption
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was the singer wasn't playing the frame drum
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because of my own ageist attitudes, but I don't
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know, maybe they were. No, they were. Okay. Yeah,
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yeah. Yeah, let's talk about ageism and maybe
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some of your motivation for recording these elders.
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We try, I mean, almost every project we ever
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do, in fact, I would say every project we ever
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do, we say, we'd really like to hear from women
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which sometimes is not possible you know like
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like culturally you know is prohibited uh we
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have an upcoming project that that unfortunately
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that's the case but then ironically at the last
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minute they told us well there's going to be
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a female singer and i was like great you know
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not because we wanted it it was just kind of
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the way it worked out i'm like okay but they
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told us that it was forbidden so so okay good
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um but whenever possible we say we really really
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really would like to hear from female singers
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More than you know as much as or more than male
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singers, and we'd really like to hear from elders
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You know and that that of course is a very subjective
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concept. What does that mean? And and as I've
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aged more and more that means people younger
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than me in certain cultures but This you know
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the motivation for this is here's this area.
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That's no one for longevity and, and, and here's
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people that are over a hundred years of age and,
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and to really, really try to, to, you know, to
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promote those voices or, or, or, you know, to
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see how heroic they are in a sense in, in the
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face of, you know, ongoing youth worship that,
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you know, you kind of, we make progress seemingly
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in, in, in that regard. And then, then it just
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all seems to slide back, you know it's, it's
00:14:44.250 --> 00:14:47.789
hard to maintain the progress. So. You know,
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we see, I think now maybe, you know, there was
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some progress in the late, you know, around 2020,
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right before and after. But I think since things
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have really gone about as far back as I can remember
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in my lifetime, you know, as far as going back
00:15:03.429 --> 00:15:08.789
to really objectifying and, you know, and worshiping
00:15:08.789 --> 00:15:11.289
youth, you know, really young people that I think
00:15:11.289 --> 00:15:15.370
youth is great. But I think people that haven't
00:15:15.370 --> 00:15:19.559
really fully. developed at all a vision of what
00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:21.519
they're trying to say other than, look at me.
00:15:22.580 --> 00:15:26.740
And the language they speak up there, is it related
00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:32.159
to Persian languages? Well, it's spoken in Iran,
00:15:32.299 --> 00:15:36.480
but it's a language that is different, and it's
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:39.299
Talish. So it's on the one side of the mountains.
00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:43.299
It's the same territory, essentially, but divided
00:15:43.299 --> 00:15:47.870
by the mountains and by the country. The interesting
00:15:47.870 --> 00:15:50.750
thing was we had this happens sometimes where
00:15:50.750 --> 00:15:52.629
you have to get an interpreter for the interpreter.
00:15:53.330 --> 00:15:55.470
And so we had to get this interpreter for the
00:15:55.470 --> 00:15:58.389
interpreter. And what that meant was that we
00:15:58.389 --> 00:16:00.950
got a local guy from down in the valley to come
00:16:00.950 --> 00:16:03.450
and help us. The local guy from down in the valley
00:16:03.450 --> 00:16:06.090
said that he I mean, it's not far. It's like
00:16:06.090 --> 00:16:07.909
an hour and a half down drive, you know, not
00:16:07.909 --> 00:16:11.190
a far drive at all. He said that he himself had
00:16:11.190 --> 00:16:13.789
trouble understanding the people in the mountains,
00:16:13.909 --> 00:16:15.379
you know, because he hadn't. you know, he didn't
00:16:15.379 --> 00:16:17.679
go up there much, even though it's nearby. And
00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:20.019
so he, I think he estimated that he understood
00:16:20.019 --> 00:16:23.320
something like, I can't remember, two thirds
00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:25.340
of what they said or something like that. I mean,
00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:27.059
enough that he could, you know, that he could
00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:30.940
communicate, but really it was different, you
00:16:30.940 --> 00:16:34.159
know, just even there. We haven't talked that
00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:35.639
much in these conversations yet about some of
00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:39.059
your earlier career. So maybe we'll get into
00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:42.450
that eventually, but Kronos Quartet, you... No,
00:16:42.450 --> 00:16:44.409
so you got them to do a little... So I'm assuming
00:16:44.409 --> 00:16:47.090
you sent them a track and they improvised around
00:16:47.090 --> 00:16:50.509
it. That was an existing piece which happened
00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:53.389
to be related to an Iranian composer and they
00:16:53.389 --> 00:16:56.529
felt like it was sort of written in the stars
00:16:56.529 --> 00:17:27.410
and I think it kind of was. And then the others,
00:17:27.450 --> 00:17:31.289
yeah, were improvisations. Okay. Yeah, the one
00:17:31.289 --> 00:17:34.329
with the good ones, which I'll play a little
00:17:34.329 --> 00:17:37.009
bit of track 26. If you know their music, you
00:17:37.009 --> 00:17:40.390
right away recognize that sound. Yeah. And we
00:17:40.390 --> 00:17:43.809
talked about them in part one with you, if people
00:17:43.809 --> 00:18:01.650
missed that. Okay, I wanted to get to the Malawi
00:18:01.650 --> 00:18:04.109
Mouse Boys because I wanted to talk about them
00:18:04.109 --> 00:18:06.390
last time and we didn't quite get there. Yeah,
00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:10.230
yeah. So I noticed with a few of these artists,
00:18:10.289 --> 00:18:13.640
the Tiny Desk Home Concert you had sent. videos
00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:15.299
to NPR and they featured some of these artists
00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:18.640
and the Malawi Mouse Boys were featured on that.
00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:23.700
So a lot of people saw this video. So was that
00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:26.220
a COVID thing they were doing? Or do they still
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:29.319
have that where they have remote? Yeah, it was
00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:31.799
a COVID thing. And also, I just think the timing
00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:36.299
of, you know, the cultural timing was there was
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:40.299
a sudden openness. And I think that has now,
00:18:40.539 --> 00:18:44.609
there's been a big change in terms of, the management
00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:48.230
and leadership because the person, one of the
00:18:48.230 --> 00:18:50.869
founders of Tiny Desk, one of the main proponents,
00:18:50.990 --> 00:18:56.089
retired. But there was an openness there. And
00:18:56.089 --> 00:18:58.230
the nice thing is I think that that's translated
00:18:58.230 --> 00:19:00.630
to them now having more interest in international
00:19:00.630 --> 00:19:08.349
music in general. I think the nice thing is that
00:19:08.349 --> 00:19:10.470
it's turned into maybe... You know, they have
00:19:10.470 --> 00:19:12.190
a lot more international artists now than they
00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:17.769
had before. But what happened was, you know,
00:19:17.789 --> 00:19:20.569
that that footage was not shot for Tiny Desk.
00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:24.549
That footage was shot quite a few years before,
00:19:24.769 --> 00:19:28.289
just as by Marilena. It's just something she
00:19:28.289 --> 00:19:31.069
would cut into, you know, one of these mini documentaries
00:19:31.069 --> 00:19:34.009
that she puts together for the records. And so
00:19:34.009 --> 00:19:37.940
it's a continuous shot. But, you know, at some
00:19:37.940 --> 00:19:41.160
point she zooms in on Maligo's hands, and at
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:44.180
some point she zooms in on his feet, you know,
00:19:44.180 --> 00:19:46.619
and then she comes back. And it was right at
00:19:46.619 --> 00:19:48.500
sunset. We were fighting the light, that sort
00:19:48.500 --> 00:19:51.700
of thing, you know, pressured for time. And,
00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:54.299
you know, people going by, trying to keep people
00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:56.259
from interfering. But it wasn't meant to be a
00:19:56.259 --> 00:19:58.119
complete take, and it wasn't meant to be seen
00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:01.460
like that. It turned out to be quite strong because
00:20:01.460 --> 00:20:03.880
of his performance. In fact, probably better
00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:06.190
than the ultimate. recorded performance that's
00:20:06.190 --> 00:20:10.650
on the album um but uh you know some people i
00:20:10.650 --> 00:20:12.990
you know i i recall like in the comments were
00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:14.990
like why are they focusing on his feet and why
00:20:14.990 --> 00:20:16.930
would they do you know as if it was done in the
00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:20.289
you know in some kind of type of anthropological
00:20:20.289 --> 00:20:23.369
way and it wasn't that at all it was just b -roll
00:20:23.369 --> 00:20:25.410
you know like getting b -roll while you're getting
00:20:25.410 --> 00:20:29.609
the a -roll but they i sent it to them you know
00:20:29.609 --> 00:20:31.529
i just i'm not sure why i think it was just one
00:20:31.529 --> 00:20:33.619
of those things you know, Sunday morning kind
00:20:33.619 --> 00:20:35.900
of thing where I woke up and I thought, let me
00:20:35.900 --> 00:20:37.900
send it, you know, to them or ask them if they're
00:20:37.900 --> 00:20:41.200
interested and send it to them. And within, I
00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.200
don't know, very quickly, you know, in many cases,
00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:45.859
never hearing back about that kind of thing,
00:20:45.940 --> 00:20:49.279
never hearing anything, but within like an hour
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:51.019
or two, it was like, yes, we want to do this.
00:20:51.059 --> 00:20:54.380
And it was like, wow. Okay, great. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:56.059
It's interesting. I was curious because of your
00:20:56.059 --> 00:20:58.500
connections and your reputation as a producer
00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:00.460
that you would get more immediate attention,
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:03.759
but not always. No, no, no. It's very difficult.
00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:08.799
And that's something that I'm not bitter about
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:12.240
at all. It's something I think it's just that
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.019
it's the main issue we're dealing with that we
00:21:15.019 --> 00:21:17.779
believe that it's important to try to counterbalance,
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:20.819
which is just that the digital age has created
00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:25.960
such a sheer tsunami of information and music
00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:29.109
that... No one, even the people, the gatekeepers,
00:21:29.269 --> 00:21:30.950
you know, can't keep track of it all. They have
00:21:30.950 --> 00:21:33.950
to filter it somehow. I try not to interpret
00:21:33.950 --> 00:21:35.890
people's silence, you know, because I've had
00:21:35.890 --> 00:21:39.130
too many people come back literally 10 years
00:21:39.130 --> 00:21:42.210
with no response, and then they want to do something,
00:21:42.309 --> 00:21:45.309
you know, or whatever it may be. So in their
00:21:45.309 --> 00:21:46.650
head, maybe they're thinking the whole time,
00:21:46.730 --> 00:21:49.509
okay, we're going to write about the good ones
00:21:49.509 --> 00:21:51.069
someday, or we're going to write about the Malawi
00:21:51.069 --> 00:21:55.230
Mouse Boys at some point. You know, but you never...
00:21:55.500 --> 00:21:58.779
would necessarily know that so i'm i don't have
00:21:58.779 --> 00:22:01.839
that level of influence and that's part of what
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.940
if i have regrets my regrets are that that things
00:22:05.940 --> 00:22:08.299
didn't go as i had hoped when i was younger which
00:22:08.299 --> 00:22:11.119
was to have a little bit more commercial success
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:13.880
to be a little bit more quote unquote famous
00:22:13.880 --> 00:22:16.579
so i could use that to help in these situations
00:22:16.579 --> 00:22:20.319
and i don't have that i have just you know many
00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:23.519
years of working at it and some contacts but
00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:25.759
a lot of those contacts age out You know, they
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:30.059
move on, they retire, pass away, you know, all
00:22:30.059 --> 00:22:34.299
those things. And meanwhile, you know, we're
00:22:34.299 --> 00:22:37.559
dealing with levels of music, you know, over
00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:41.880
100 ,000 songs uploaded to Spotify daily that
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.599
it's almost impossible. Compete is not the right
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.200
word, but it's almost impossible to be heard
00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:52.160
above all that noise. Yeah. Well, I'm trying
00:22:52.160 --> 00:23:04.700
to help in my tiny corner of the Internet. Well,
00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:33.480
thank you so much. First of all, there's a single
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.900
on Bandcamp from 2022, In Memory of a Hungry
00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:39.279
Child, with kind of a ghostly wind instrument,
00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:42.259
and there's this photo. Is somebody playing that
00:23:42.259 --> 00:23:44.259
instrument? Is that what we're hearing in that
00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:48.819
track? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all live. That
00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:56.579
was something that... In 2018, there was an opportunity
00:23:56.579 --> 00:24:01.200
for them to potentially do the score for a film.
00:24:01.690 --> 00:24:04.430
uh that was based a story that was based in malawi
00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:07.170
in a film that was shot in malawi um and so that
00:24:07.170 --> 00:24:09.910
was the last time i went there with them and
00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:12.549
we recorded specifically for that purpose all
00:24:12.549 --> 00:24:16.049
on on speculation you know like like you know
00:24:16.049 --> 00:24:19.029
there was nobody was committed enough to to give
00:24:19.029 --> 00:24:21.269
money to help but it was like maybe this will
00:24:21.269 --> 00:24:24.029
work and uh i thought what they did was beautiful
00:24:24.029 --> 00:24:28.819
and um and unfortunately It didn't work. They
00:24:28.819 --> 00:24:31.140
wanted a more traditional film score, that sort
00:24:31.140 --> 00:24:34.680
of thing. And so this was one of the tracks from
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.900
when we got together, you know, more experimental.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:40.720
The record that ultimately came out, I think,
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.720
is a really strong record, a really different
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:46.220
record. And there's two songs that are, you know,
00:24:46.220 --> 00:24:48.420
really feature their gorgeous harmonies, but
00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:50.880
otherwise it's extremely experimental. Yeah,
00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:53.099
I've listened through to it. I was kind of curious.
00:24:53.140 --> 00:24:56.960
They must have had some... input from the filmmakers
00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:00.519
in terms of the scenes, what they wanted? Yeah,
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:07.140
there was the rough footage of one scene in particular,
00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:10.579
a pivotal scene in the middle of the film that
00:25:10.579 --> 00:25:13.099
they wanted a score to, and then there was the
00:25:13.099 --> 00:25:20.940
cut of the opening of the film. So that's largely
00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:23.099
what was being worked from, were those two things.
00:25:23.930 --> 00:25:25.829
You know, as best we could. We weren't in a studio
00:25:25.829 --> 00:25:27.609
with, you know, where we're projecting the screen.
00:25:27.690 --> 00:25:30.390
It was more like, look at this on the laptop,
00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:33.130
and then we, you know, and then we'll do some
00:25:33.130 --> 00:25:36.789
stuff. Yeah. Well, I'll play a clip of the hymn,
00:25:36.789 --> 00:25:38.809
Hunger, because, you know, their singing is so
00:25:38.809 --> 00:26:09.849
beautiful. I also wanted to play this improvisatory
00:26:09.849 --> 00:26:31.150
guitar music, Dirt Floors. Yeah. And they have
00:26:31.150 --> 00:26:33.269
other albums on the streaming services, although
00:26:33.269 --> 00:26:36.700
they're not on Bandcamp, I noticed. Yeah, they
00:26:36.700 --> 00:26:40.140
predate Bandcamp and the label that was very
00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:44.279
supportive of them. And in fact, the first record
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:47.339
made a big splash at the time, you know, in the
00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:52.740
UK and in kind of global music circles. That
00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:58.299
label essentially stopped operating. I think
00:26:58.299 --> 00:27:00.319
they're operating in some form, but it hasn't
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.000
put out albums for a long, long, long time. I
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.019
mean, probably close to 10 years now. So those
00:27:06.019 --> 00:27:10.160
records therefore predate, I don't know, predate
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:11.960
Bandcamp is probably wrong. Probably Bandcamp
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:15.359
started long before it became a more regular
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.759
thing for people to be involved with. And you
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:24.000
had brought them to the U .S.? Yeah. Well, we
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:28.900
were very fortunate. Any of the artists who've
00:27:28.900 --> 00:27:30.660
had the opportunity to go overseas, it's almost
00:27:30.660 --> 00:27:34.579
always due to WOMAD, the WOMAD Festival. And
00:27:34.579 --> 00:27:36.779
it started with the Malawi Mouse Boys that after
00:27:36.779 --> 00:27:39.059
the first record that got a lot of attention,
00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:43.799
I mean, for a record of that nature and basically
00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:45.720
unsolicited attention, you know, not something
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:50.519
we had to hire a fancy publicist for, that the
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:53.759
head person for WOMAD, booking person for WOMAD,
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:56.180
who's really great, really great person, Paula,
00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:58.920
wrote me. I didn't know her. And she wrote me
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:00.599
and said, we really want to bring them to the
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:04.059
festival. And my first reaction was. No way.
00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:07.420
We may have talked about this before, but that
00:28:07.420 --> 00:28:09.940
I never wanted to be anybody's manager. I never
00:28:09.940 --> 00:28:12.640
wanted to be anybody's booking agent. I'm not
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:16.200
good at those things necessarily. It involves
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.920
a lot of paperwork. You know, it gives me a headache.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.880
I've since gotten a lot better at paperwork because
00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:25.740
I've done a lot of it in the time since. So that
00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:27.460
was my first thought. You know, I didn't respond.
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.839
But I realized, I think very quickly, I think
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:32.960
within, you know. Less than an hour. I was like,
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:35.079
no, I've got to do this, you know, because this
00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:37.680
is a great opportunity for them. And so I've
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.319
got to at least see it through. So we did. And
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:43.880
it was it was shockingly successful because they'd
00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:47.299
never been on a stage before. So they did a warm
00:28:47.299 --> 00:28:50.180
up gig in London on the Friday night before the
00:28:50.180 --> 00:28:52.880
Thursday night before. And then they went and
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.400
played the first show. They had two shows and
00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:57.680
they played in front of a massive audience because
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:00.500
they were the only thing going on at the end
00:29:00.500 --> 00:29:02.740
of the night. So everybody came to this 110.
00:29:02.900 --> 00:29:05.440
It was like 10 ,000 people. It was pretty overwhelming.
00:29:05.619 --> 00:29:09.660
And they did fine, but not great. But then on
00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:12.259
Sunday, they played during the day and they had
00:29:12.259 --> 00:29:14.920
time to kind of think about it. And it was just
00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:20.640
the learning curve was, you know, like they just
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.059
skyrocketed, you know, and they came out and
00:29:23.059 --> 00:29:25.079
gave one of the best live performances I've ever
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:28.539
seen in my life by anybody. There were 10 ,000
00:29:28.539 --> 00:29:31.640
people around outdoors in the sun this time rather
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:36.380
than the dark in a tent. And it was incredible.
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.859
So that led to them being invited immediately
00:29:38.859 --> 00:29:43.579
to the Australian and New Zealand version of
00:29:43.579 --> 00:29:46.319
WOMAD. And they went down there and they were
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:50.559
very, very successful there, especially in New
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:53.450
Zealand, because they were on the... what was
00:29:53.450 --> 00:29:55.329
at the time the morning breakfast show, which
00:29:55.329 --> 00:30:00.630
doesn't exist anymore. And then I was fortunate
00:30:00.630 --> 00:30:02.390
enough to be able to, to be able to bring them
00:30:02.390 --> 00:30:04.430
to the United States because of a festival in
00:30:04.430 --> 00:30:07.190
San Francisco that doesn't normally support,
00:30:07.390 --> 00:30:11.230
you know, international artists, but has, it's
00:30:11.230 --> 00:30:12.890
a free festival and they have, you know, this
00:30:12.890 --> 00:30:14.910
trust that they can use money. And so they were,
00:30:14.930 --> 00:30:17.210
they were moved and they were motivated. And,
00:30:17.210 --> 00:30:19.769
and so they went there and were able to perform.
00:30:19.890 --> 00:30:23.319
And then we did a show and. la and we did another
00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:25.599
show in oakland that like six people were there
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:27.640
you know they played the festival and there were
00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.900
you know thousands and then they came across
00:30:29.900 --> 00:30:32.819
the bay the next night and there was nobody there
00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:35.779
almost virtually and then they played in new
00:30:35.779 --> 00:30:40.519
york um and uh but you know unfortunately the
00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:43.059
opportunities kind of dry up there i mean there
00:30:43.059 --> 00:30:45.319
aren't a lot of opportunities beyond that um
00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:48.519
i wish there were you know but but there just
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:52.329
have not been And in one of your books, you wrote
00:30:52.329 --> 00:30:54.750
about them and how it was very sad because in
00:30:54.750 --> 00:30:56.849
their community, they were perceived a certain
00:30:56.849 --> 00:30:58.410
way. So they had trouble getting work because
00:30:58.410 --> 00:31:00.150
they were seen as successful, even though it
00:31:00.150 --> 00:31:03.730
didn't translate into money for them, regular
00:31:03.730 --> 00:31:07.250
money. Right, right. There's, I mean, every culture
00:31:07.250 --> 00:31:09.430
is different. Human nature is human nature, but
00:31:09.430 --> 00:31:15.519
on a spectrum. the culture there is known for
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:17.799
for sometimes having envy you know like envy
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:21.160
attacks and that sort of thing um so it's some
00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:25.819
form of that that that uh you know because they
00:31:25.819 --> 00:31:29.259
traveled which the vast majority of people in
00:31:29.259 --> 00:31:32.519
their area which is the poorest area of what
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:34.240
at the time was the poorest country in the world
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:36.259
and remains in the top 10 poorest countries in
00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:39.920
the world in their area even the The successful,
00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:41.920
you know, richer people usually have not had
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:44.319
that opportunity because the visas are so hard
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:47.940
to get, even if they've got the money. You know,
00:31:47.940 --> 00:31:50.539
in the capital or in Blantyre, the other city,
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:52.480
you know, it's possible that some people have,
00:31:52.579 --> 00:31:55.480
but it's rare, you know. So, I mean, they were
00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:57.900
the first people in their families to ever be
00:31:57.900 --> 00:31:59.759
on an airplane, the first people to have passports,
00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:02.400
the first people to go overseas. And people know
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:05.960
this. And so when they got back, you know, and
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:11.849
reality sets in. and go looking for work, people
00:32:11.849 --> 00:32:14.990
were saying, no, you don't need the job. You're
00:32:14.990 --> 00:32:19.269
the fancy person that went to the UK or that
00:32:19.269 --> 00:32:23.589
sort of thing. And so it's really, it's quite
00:32:23.589 --> 00:32:28.009
sad. And when they were in New Zealand, Australia
00:32:28.009 --> 00:32:30.750
and then New Zealand, that was the time that
00:32:30.750 --> 00:32:33.309
they were able to make a significant amount of
00:32:33.309 --> 00:32:35.529
money because there's so much more utility to
00:32:35.529 --> 00:32:37.539
them. the money there because of the currency
00:32:37.539 --> 00:32:41.099
exchange and we tried really hard to stress to
00:32:41.099 --> 00:32:44.339
them like this may be it like like you know they'd
00:32:44.339 --> 00:32:47.140
had quite a run for a year or two but it's like
00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:49.900
that this may be there may not be other opportunities
00:32:49.900 --> 00:32:52.920
like this so really make this money last because
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:54.779
if you're careful you can make this money last
00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:59.019
two three four years but of course that's very
00:32:59.019 --> 00:33:01.279
hard to do and one of the reasons it's hard for
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:04.079
people you know because they're generous usually
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:07.720
as well is that they want to help other people.
00:33:07.779 --> 00:33:09.779
So they get home, and the neighbor needs some
00:33:09.779 --> 00:33:12.660
help, and the mother or the father or the brother
00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:14.900
or the sister, and obviously they've got kids.
00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:18.200
And so it's hard to make that. It's hard to do
00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:20.640
that. It's hard to do that in Italy. It's hard
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:24.240
to do that to budget money. I'm not good at it.
00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:29.000
But we really were trying to manage expectations.
00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:31.400
We're always trying to manage expectations that
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:34.609
we're going to try this. We're going to pay you
00:33:34.609 --> 00:33:37.170
to record, but there may never be a record. And
00:33:37.170 --> 00:33:39.170
if there is a record, it might be one, two, three
00:33:39.170 --> 00:33:42.329
years from now. And if there is a record, there
00:33:42.329 --> 00:33:45.150
might be a chance to perform somewhere else,
00:33:45.210 --> 00:33:47.430
but we don't know that. And if there is, it will
00:33:47.430 --> 00:33:50.369
probably be limited to a few countries and times.
00:33:51.869 --> 00:33:55.470
But there are obviously exceptions to that, and
00:33:55.470 --> 00:33:58.529
it's beautiful to see artists that are able to
00:33:58.529 --> 00:34:01.650
really carve out a career for themselves. you
00:34:01.650 --> 00:34:04.450
know, play in Europe or, you know, like there's
00:34:04.450 --> 00:34:07.390
a band BCUC, which is a great, great live band
00:34:07.390 --> 00:34:12.829
from South Africa. And they come to Europe, I
00:34:12.829 --> 00:34:14.769
don't know how many months out of the year, but
00:34:14.769 --> 00:34:18.230
certainly the summer season and play almost every
00:34:18.230 --> 00:34:20.090
night. I mean, they have a packed schedule and
00:34:20.090 --> 00:34:22.650
I'm sure they must be making pretty good money
00:34:22.650 --> 00:34:25.409
now. And it's beautiful. It's great. And it would
00:34:25.409 --> 00:34:29.570
be nice to see, you know, artists that They're
00:34:29.570 --> 00:34:32.949
not commercial, that band. They're very catchy
00:34:32.949 --> 00:34:36.269
and incredible live energy, but it would be nice
00:34:36.269 --> 00:34:40.309
to see other bands have some version of that.
00:34:40.510 --> 00:34:44.289
But obviously when you're doing rural, acoustic,
00:34:44.570 --> 00:34:49.030
more ballad -oriented music, it's harder. So
00:34:49.030 --> 00:34:51.070
the Malawi Mouse Boys make their own instruments?
00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:55.380
Hi, please take this mini pause to hear about
00:34:55.380 --> 00:34:57.820
some other episodes I've linked directly to this
00:34:57.820 --> 00:35:00.900
one, which I think may interest you, with Kala
00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:06.659
Ramnas, Maya Youssef, Martha Redbone, Agali Sigamaki,
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:11.300
Avi Kishna, Kelly Toma, and of course my other
00:35:11.300 --> 00:35:14.539
episodes with Ayan. In the show notes, you'll
00:35:14.539 --> 00:35:17.139
also find a link to sign up for my newsletter,
00:35:17.420 --> 00:35:20.400
where you'll get exclusive information about
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:23.719
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support this project directly, where you can
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.380
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media. All this helps spread the word. Thanks.
00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:52.010
Now, back to my conversation with Ian. Yeah,
00:35:52.050 --> 00:35:54.989
they do. They do. Or in some cases, people have
00:35:54.989 --> 00:35:57.809
made them for them, but they make their own instruments.
00:35:57.849 --> 00:36:01.690
Yeah, the guitars and, you know, at Maligo's
00:36:01.690 --> 00:36:07.630
house, who is kind of the leader, there is, you
00:36:07.630 --> 00:36:12.130
know, instruments in various states of repair
00:36:12.130 --> 00:36:15.250
or disrepair or development, you know, like guitars
00:36:15.250 --> 00:36:17.769
without strings and, you know, that sort of thing.
00:36:17.889 --> 00:36:23.980
But they... when they came to, to London, you
00:36:23.980 --> 00:36:27.059
know, they came to the UK, they said, we really
00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:29.679
want you to get us real instruments. You know,
00:36:29.699 --> 00:36:32.139
this is our thing, like, like real guitars and,
00:36:32.179 --> 00:36:34.280
you know, blah, blah, blah. So, so we did, you
00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:35.840
know, like, like, okay, we, you know, we, we
00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:37.920
bought him a, I don't remember, you know, like
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.900
an acoustic guitar and an electric guitar and
00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:42.639
a bass guitar, something like that. And for them
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.739
to be able to take home. And the first night
00:36:45.739 --> 00:36:49.570
there's one guitar. It's sort of like a ukulele
00:36:49.570 --> 00:36:52.469
guitar almost that is made with sheet metal and
00:36:52.469 --> 00:36:57.610
tree limbs and, you know, just recycled metal
00:36:57.610 --> 00:37:04.269
string. And so they played. Maybe it was, yeah,
00:37:04.349 --> 00:37:06.369
I think it was before or after they played. Now
00:37:06.369 --> 00:37:10.010
I don't recall. I guess it was after. And then,
00:37:10.050 --> 00:37:11.969
you know, Nelson took off the guitar, the only
00:37:11.969 --> 00:37:14.320
instrument they had other than some. hand percussion
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.340
which was like a coke coca -cola can and things
00:37:17.340 --> 00:37:20.059
like that and he you know he leaned it up against
00:37:20.059 --> 00:37:21.980
the wall like people do with guitars if they
00:37:21.980 --> 00:37:24.559
don't have a stand and then was talking to people
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:27.179
or whatever and and then suddenly this person
00:37:27.179 --> 00:37:29.940
came up their phone and took a picture of it
00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:32.480
and then somebody else came up and pretty soon
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:34.039
there was a line of people i mean you know it
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:37.340
was a small club so maybe 10 people 5 10 people
00:37:37.340 --> 00:37:40.000
came up and took a picture in a row of his guitar
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:43.309
and you know he's a he's a smart person he's
00:37:43.309 --> 00:37:45.889
an artist he's observant you know and he saw
00:37:45.889 --> 00:37:48.630
that and he realized oh that's not a liability
00:37:48.630 --> 00:37:51.570
that's and that's what i've been trying to tell
00:37:51.570 --> 00:37:53.429
them but you know it's that thing you know those
00:37:53.429 --> 00:37:56.010
are words but but this was something you know
00:37:56.010 --> 00:38:00.010
experiential and uh and so they actually took
00:38:00.010 --> 00:38:03.289
those guitars home that we given them and sold
00:38:03.289 --> 00:38:06.869
them to be able to then get materials to buy
00:38:06.869 --> 00:38:09.329
to build more instruments and that's what they
00:38:09.329 --> 00:38:13.920
used uh on the future you know The trip to Australia,
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:15.719
New Zealand, and the trip to the United States.
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:20.619
Okay, interesting. Yeah. And the name of the
00:38:20.619 --> 00:38:29.119
band? Well, they sell probably still to this
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:32.380
day on occasion when they need to. But as younger
00:38:32.380 --> 00:38:35.159
men, when I met them, when we met them in 2011,
00:38:35.380 --> 00:38:40.630
I think the youngest at that point was... Still
00:38:40.630 --> 00:38:44.389
a teenager. I don't recall precisely. Maybe 19
00:38:44.389 --> 00:38:49.510
or 18. They would sell mice on a shish kebab,
00:38:49.530 --> 00:38:52.710
roasted mice on a shish kebab by the side of
00:38:52.710 --> 00:38:55.610
the road, which is sort of a delicacy in that
00:38:55.610 --> 00:38:58.309
region. So people that travel, you know, from
00:38:58.309 --> 00:39:01.150
the capital to the other big city in the south,
00:39:01.289 --> 00:39:04.170
some of them would say, you know, like, this
00:39:04.170 --> 00:39:06.489
is something, when I was a kid, we'd stop and
00:39:06.489 --> 00:39:09.820
we'd... get this you know and so they will still
00:39:09.820 --> 00:39:12.739
sometimes do that and so that that was you know
00:39:12.739 --> 00:39:16.780
how they how they would make money um and um
00:39:16.780 --> 00:39:21.219
and so we met them because uh when we were out
00:39:21.219 --> 00:39:25.039
we saw i saw somebody with this guitar and was
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:29.360
like wait you know um but uh we were in a hurry
00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:33.219
so we didn't you know stop you know which and
00:39:33.219 --> 00:39:35.820
now i'm a lot better you know stopping when you
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:39.360
see somebody for sure um and uh but sometimes
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:41.400
you just can't sometimes you're on your way to
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:43.360
meet somebody else that sort of thing and so
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.460
on the way back you know i'm looking because
00:39:45.460 --> 00:39:48.119
i i kind of know where where it was but i don't
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:50.840
know you know not that precisely you know i knew
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:54.179
it's okay it's somewhere in this 20 mile stretch
00:39:54.179 --> 00:39:57.099
or somebody by the side of the road and then
00:39:57.099 --> 00:40:00.199
fortunately and the sun was going down fortunately
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:03.210
you know He was still there. And this was Alfred
00:40:03.210 --> 00:40:08.670
from the band. And and so pulled over and went
00:40:08.670 --> 00:40:12.630
there and talked to him. And, you know, you know,
00:40:12.630 --> 00:40:15.289
a bunch of kids gathered around, you know, hoping
00:40:15.289 --> 00:40:17.570
that they're going to sell stuff. But but also
00:40:17.570 --> 00:40:22.130
like just curious what's going on. And and Alfred's
00:40:22.130 --> 00:40:25.570
quite shy. And so I asked him, hey, just. if
00:40:25.570 --> 00:40:27.789
you would would maybe play a little song and
00:40:27.789 --> 00:40:29.690
and you know he was a little reluctant and then
00:40:29.690 --> 00:40:31.969
he did and it's this incredible song that's on
00:40:31.969 --> 00:40:35.710
the debut record um and uh you know it's one
00:40:35.710 --> 00:40:37.409
of those things very similar with the good ones
00:40:37.409 --> 00:40:39.690
where within like 20 seconds it's like no this
00:40:39.690 --> 00:40:42.329
i don't need to hear you know i don't need to
00:40:42.329 --> 00:40:43.670
hear a whole song i don't need to hear other
00:40:43.670 --> 00:40:47.650
songs this this is beautiful and so i said well
00:40:47.650 --> 00:40:49.789
you know we'd like to come back and record you
00:40:49.789 --> 00:40:52.670
if you're interested and and and he said yeah
00:40:52.670 --> 00:40:55.530
yeah you know like okay and and uh you know and
00:40:55.530 --> 00:40:58.590
you know bring your you know he goes i play with
00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:00.150
other people i'm like that's great that's even
00:41:00.150 --> 00:41:06.130
better and and so um we went back uh on a scheduled
00:41:06.130 --> 00:41:08.269
day i think two days later and and they were
00:41:08.269 --> 00:41:10.829
there and and they they took us from one village
00:41:10.829 --> 00:41:14.250
to another um you know and it ended up being
00:41:14.250 --> 00:41:17.030
like seven or eight people and uh and it was
00:41:17.030 --> 00:41:19.710
pretty chaotic you know like some of it was good
00:41:19.710 --> 00:41:23.280
and some of it was kind of uh a little too rough
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.840
you know um some of the singing and some of the
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:29.300
playing um but then you know we talked to them
00:41:29.300 --> 00:41:31.039
some more and said well we'd like to come back
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:34.099
again and and uh and they said okay well well
00:41:34.099 --> 00:41:36.440
you know we'll bring this person this person
00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:38.559
and this person you know and focus it and it
00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:41.239
was like great you know so that was the first
00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:43.559
record there were more than the four men involved
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:47.099
but but uh less than the the eight original and
00:41:47.099 --> 00:41:50.460
then when it came time to tour the problem is
00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:52.670
always that You know, you can't bring everybody.
00:41:53.289 --> 00:41:56.130
And so you have to find some core. And so this
00:41:56.130 --> 00:41:59.469
has ended up being the core of the group, you
00:41:59.469 --> 00:42:04.110
know, is Maligo, who's really the leader anyway,
00:42:04.250 --> 00:42:07.989
the primary instrument builder, and then a few
00:42:07.989 --> 00:42:10.210
folks around him. Alfred, the person that we
00:42:10.210 --> 00:42:14.389
originally met as well. And you were in Malawi
00:42:14.389 --> 00:42:16.110
for another purpose, I mean, to meet musicians
00:42:16.110 --> 00:42:19.349
or to do other? Oh, no, no, no, to meet musicians.
00:42:19.449 --> 00:42:23.170
But we were there also the first time we were
00:42:23.170 --> 00:42:26.469
there with Marlena's father. So Marlena's mother
00:42:26.469 --> 00:42:30.130
is from Rwanda and her mother and father met
00:42:30.130 --> 00:42:33.349
in Rwanda. But Marlena's father, who's Italian,
00:42:33.650 --> 00:42:37.289
spent more than a decade, most of his young adulthood,
00:42:37.530 --> 00:42:41.809
like 15 years, I believe, he spent in Malawi
00:42:41.809 --> 00:42:45.940
doing charitable work. And so he... learned to
00:42:45.940 --> 00:42:52.260
speak fluent Chichewa and, you know, had to do
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:54.079
a lot of it on his own. A lot of times he was,
00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:56.440
you know, the only person in the village, you
00:42:56.440 --> 00:42:59.039
know, working to build something there, that
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:03.079
sort of thing. And so that was, you know, that
00:43:03.079 --> 00:43:06.119
was his country, like much more than Italy, he
00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:09.380
felt like that was his place. He was ailing,
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:12.099
so we went with him. He wanted to go one last
00:43:12.099 --> 00:43:14.119
time. And his best friend still lived there,
00:43:14.219 --> 00:43:18.579
an Italian man. And so we went and spent time
00:43:18.579 --> 00:43:21.340
with him. And while we were there, we went in
00:43:21.340 --> 00:43:24.539
search of music. And we recorded, you know, like
00:43:24.539 --> 00:43:27.659
in a lot of cases, we recorded a lot of, I wouldn't
00:43:27.659 --> 00:43:30.000
say a lot, but we recorded other music. And we
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.400
recorded one singer who was quite good. But,
00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:36.579
you know, just clearly there was something particularly
00:43:36.579 --> 00:43:38.940
special about it. what the Malawi mouse boys
00:43:38.940 --> 00:43:41.840
were doing. Okay. I was wondering about the language.
00:43:41.900 --> 00:43:44.619
So he was your translator on that first trip.
00:43:45.579 --> 00:43:49.280
He was pretty weak and not really that interested
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.440
in, in helping with that with music. But his
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:57.119
friend, his friend helped. And then we also had
00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:00.440
another person that, that we met there and he
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:03.420
helped and he's continued to help with the group
00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:07.119
because his English is quite good. uh someone
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:09.900
who's from he he grew up in the north of Malawi
00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:13.719
but he he now is based nearby a village a couple
00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:16.840
of villages away from where the remainder of
00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:19.340
the group all grew up you know where their church
00:44:19.340 --> 00:44:21.579
is and that sort of thing which is a tiny tiny
00:44:21.579 --> 00:44:50.789
village Before we leave this group, is there
00:44:50.789 --> 00:44:52.909
anything you want to talk about around them?
00:44:54.170 --> 00:44:58.250
No, just that we continue to, I mean, I wish
00:44:58.250 --> 00:44:59.949
there was something stronger than just a hope,
00:45:00.030 --> 00:45:03.369
but we continue to try and hope and do what we
00:45:03.369 --> 00:45:08.190
can to assist. you know their situation is unfortunately
00:45:08.190 --> 00:45:11.429
doesn't improve dramatically you know it would
00:45:11.429 --> 00:45:14.369
be nice if it would but uh it's a continuing
00:45:14.369 --> 00:45:18.190
struggle that you know the brunt of a lot of
00:45:18.190 --> 00:45:21.849
the consequences of the the ukraine war with
00:45:21.849 --> 00:45:25.050
the with you know the impact on the the the production
00:45:25.050 --> 00:45:28.190
there of oil and the production of you know grain
00:45:28.190 --> 00:45:31.889
has been rested upon you know, the countries
00:45:31.889 --> 00:45:34.429
that are already struggling. And now I'm sure
00:45:34.429 --> 00:45:39.590
with the current war, you know, between Iran
00:45:39.590 --> 00:45:45.050
and America, et cetera, is going to have probably,
00:45:45.170 --> 00:45:47.929
again, will impact them very dramatically. Obviously,
00:45:47.969 --> 00:45:51.909
it's impacting the countries in the region really,
00:45:51.969 --> 00:45:56.090
really powerfully in a negative way. But it will
00:45:56.090 --> 00:45:57.710
have repercussions that are probably going to,
00:45:57.710 --> 00:46:02.010
compared to what Gas prices in America, in the
00:46:02.010 --> 00:46:05.210
countries that are suffering most, can directly
00:46:05.210 --> 00:46:09.690
lead to rises in starvation and other issues
00:46:09.690 --> 00:46:15.530
as well. So we continue to do what we can and
00:46:15.530 --> 00:46:21.070
want to do more for them. Well, you have a recent
00:46:21.070 --> 00:46:24.650
project you'd sent me, the Chicago Gunfire Survivors.
00:46:25.289 --> 00:46:29.190
And it's not... so much music it's more interviews
00:46:29.190 --> 00:46:34.170
and spoken word so this group um cure violence
00:46:34.170 --> 00:46:36.849
global all the profits go to support their work
00:46:36.849 --> 00:46:40.269
did you know the people working with them i i
00:46:40.269 --> 00:46:44.329
know uh one of the leaders um was someone that
00:46:44.329 --> 00:46:47.909
when the zomba prison project uh was nominated
00:46:47.909 --> 00:46:51.269
and it got a lot of attention um internationally
00:46:51.269 --> 00:46:54.170
a lot of people during that period contacted
00:46:54.170 --> 00:46:57.150
me you know that i never met or didn't know.
00:46:57.309 --> 00:46:59.829
And, uh, and some of those people, you know,
00:46:59.829 --> 00:47:02.789
I've remained in contact with and, and they were
00:47:02.789 --> 00:47:08.070
one of those. And so, um, so I had the idea,
00:47:08.130 --> 00:47:11.289
like, why don't we, why don't we, you know, record
00:47:11.289 --> 00:47:13.150
with people in the community and, and let them
00:47:13.150 --> 00:47:15.710
speak for themselves and hear their stories and,
00:47:15.750 --> 00:47:18.769
and, uh, raise some money, you know, for, for
00:47:18.769 --> 00:47:21.110
the, for the program as well, that, that does,
00:47:21.170 --> 00:47:24.800
you know, incredible work with, uh, you know,
00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:26.780
helping to stop violence. You know, people can
00:47:26.780 --> 00:47:29.739
look at the, look at the rates of violence and
00:47:29.739 --> 00:47:32.000
say, well, they're sky high, but, but what they
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:33.800
don't realize is that without these kinds of
00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:36.579
programs, they would be much higher, you know,
00:47:36.579 --> 00:47:38.800
much worse. And, and maybe that's hard for people
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:42.079
to imagine, but it's, it's the truth. Um, and,
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:47.099
um, and so, yeah, so, so contacted them. They
00:47:47.099 --> 00:47:49.360
said, yeah, let's do this. And, and went there.
00:47:49.460 --> 00:47:54.099
And again, like a lot, like a lot of the projects
00:47:54.099 --> 00:47:57.340
i would say virtually all of them um it becomes
00:47:57.340 --> 00:48:00.119
it takes on a life of its own where you know
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:02.260
there's this person or that person or this person
00:48:02.260 --> 00:48:05.320
or that person is scheduled to be there but then
00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.500
maybe doesn't show up some of them most cases
00:48:08.500 --> 00:48:10.800
they do but maybe doesn't show up but then there's
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:13.760
other people that come with that person or or
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:16.599
suddenly somebody when it becomes real they you
00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:19.539
know tangible they go oh wait you know my my
00:48:19.539 --> 00:48:22.550
friend's friend you know he's a singer you know,
00:48:22.570 --> 00:48:26.329
whatever. But a lot of the people came from the
00:48:26.329 --> 00:48:29.130
neighborhood itself, meaning that block, you
00:48:29.130 --> 00:48:31.869
know, where it's a very stable neighborhood in
00:48:31.869 --> 00:48:33.630
general, where a lot of people have lived in
00:48:33.630 --> 00:48:36.650
the same homes for generations, you know, and
00:48:36.650 --> 00:48:39.289
some of the households are, I'd say the majority
00:48:39.289 --> 00:48:42.550
of them are multi -generational. It's actually
00:48:42.550 --> 00:48:47.429
quite close -knit, really. So the saddest part
00:48:47.429 --> 00:48:49.469
of it, really, or the most telling part of it,
00:48:49.510 --> 00:48:54.070
is that virtually anybody you know when the community
00:48:54.070 --> 00:48:57.090
leaders walk up and say hey would you like to
00:48:57.090 --> 00:48:58.929
talk about your experience with gun violence
00:48:58.929 --> 00:49:01.710
it's it's it's almost a given that they have
00:49:01.710 --> 00:49:05.349
experience with gun violence I don't know what
00:49:05.349 --> 00:49:08.929
you've been told. I don't know what you've been
00:49:08.929 --> 00:49:13.030
told. Violence kills both young and old. Violence
00:49:13.030 --> 00:49:17.030
kills both young and old. I don't know what you
00:49:17.030 --> 00:49:20.510
want to be. I don't know what you want to be.
00:49:20.690 --> 00:49:24.170
Stop the violence. It'll set you free. Stop the
00:49:24.170 --> 00:49:28.050
violence. So the South Side of Chicago has a
00:49:28.050 --> 00:49:32.230
rich cultural and musical history. Yeah. It does.
00:49:32.409 --> 00:49:36.670
I mean, it's, you know, it's the home of the
00:49:36.670 --> 00:49:39.949
electric blues, you know, which were mostly people
00:49:39.949 --> 00:49:42.829
transplanted from the South and Mississippi that
00:49:42.829 --> 00:49:47.949
plugged in. And that's really what led to certainly,
00:49:48.030 --> 00:49:50.809
maybe not rock and roll, but certainly that led
00:49:50.809 --> 00:49:53.269
to a lot of the British invasion, you know, because
00:49:53.269 --> 00:49:57.110
that's where so many people in Britain were inspired
00:49:57.110 --> 00:50:01.889
by a lot of those artists. You know, and it continues
00:50:01.889 --> 00:50:03.989
today. I mean, there have been, you know, are
00:50:03.989 --> 00:50:06.030
and have continued to be a lot of rap artists
00:50:06.030 --> 00:50:08.170
that come from the community. And it's a big
00:50:08.170 --> 00:50:10.550
area. I mean, it's not like we're talking about
00:50:10.550 --> 00:50:14.010
some tiny little area. It's a big chunk of the
00:50:14.010 --> 00:50:17.610
city down there. So you convened by chance on
00:50:17.610 --> 00:50:19.250
the day that employment of the National Guard.
00:50:19.949 --> 00:50:24.090
Yeah. Was it kind of scary? Well, I mean, I think,
00:50:24.090 --> 00:50:27.369
you know, this has happened maybe because things
00:50:27.369 --> 00:50:31.070
have been quite volatile lately. This has happened
00:50:31.070 --> 00:50:34.730
at least a half a dozen occasions that something
00:50:34.730 --> 00:50:37.690
happens when we're somewhere, like in Azerbaijan,
00:50:38.070 --> 00:50:41.170
that we got down to the Talish area, we got settled,
00:50:41.369 --> 00:50:43.510
you know, we went up there and kind of figured
00:50:43.510 --> 00:50:45.150
it out and then figured out where to stay because
00:50:45.150 --> 00:50:47.590
the place you're supposed to stay didn't exist.
00:50:47.869 --> 00:50:50.809
It was a scam, didn't even exist. And so we had
00:50:50.809 --> 00:50:53.110
to, you know, hustle and figure out a place to
00:50:53.110 --> 00:50:55.510
stay and all that. And we got settled and then
00:50:55.510 --> 00:50:57.590
woke up the next morning and war had broken out
00:50:57.590 --> 00:51:00.639
again between... uh, Azerbaijan and Armenia,
00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:03.760
you know, the, the border. Um, and so there's
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:05.780
always that sinking feeling like, oh man, like
00:51:05.780 --> 00:51:09.059
this is, let's just, maybe our timing's really
00:51:09.059 --> 00:51:12.960
doomed or really horrible. Um, and so, yeah,
00:51:13.139 --> 00:51:17.039
uh, and, and we recently were recording on the,
00:51:17.059 --> 00:51:20.880
on the border of Iran. Uh, and that was when
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:23.539
his ultimatum that he was going to obliterate
00:51:23.539 --> 00:51:25.880
the whole culture of Iran and all that stuff.
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:29.130
And so we went to bed with that. Um, And, you
00:51:29.130 --> 00:51:31.809
know, not knowing what we'd wake up to. So this
00:51:31.809 --> 00:51:36.750
was similar, you know, but it's again, it's that
00:51:36.750 --> 00:51:39.010
thing that you read it on the Internet or it's
00:51:39.010 --> 00:51:42.170
in the news, but you'd never know it. You know,
00:51:42.170 --> 00:51:44.110
like there was no sign of it. You know, it's
00:51:44.110 --> 00:51:46.250
just something you've read about, you know, the
00:51:46.250 --> 00:51:49.530
border issue, you know, between with Armenia
00:51:49.530 --> 00:51:52.590
when we were there, you know, never would have
00:51:52.590 --> 00:51:55.090
known. It's very far away in that case. In this
00:51:55.090 --> 00:51:57.690
case, we're in the city, but. it was only an
00:51:57.690 --> 00:52:01.269
order it hadn't even yet happened but yeah it's
00:52:01.269 --> 00:52:04.489
it was it was still disturbing you know like
00:52:04.489 --> 00:52:06.929
disturbing to know like okay well this is this
00:52:06.929 --> 00:52:11.210
is at minimum dramatic you know this is something
00:52:11.210 --> 00:52:14.429
dramatic that is going to impact the community
00:52:14.429 --> 00:52:16.289
you know whether somebody believes it's going
00:52:16.289 --> 00:52:19.030
to be harmful or helpful and some of the people
00:52:19.030 --> 00:52:20.349
in the community thought it might be helpful
00:52:20.349 --> 00:52:23.789
but whether somebody believes one way or the
00:52:23.789 --> 00:52:27.840
other it's certainly not going to be subtle It's
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:31.760
very emotional listening to the tracks. And they're
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:34.380
mostly, it's like an audio documentary kind of
00:52:34.380 --> 00:52:37.079
your conversation. So track two, Justice, was
00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:41.119
not served. You talk to mothers who had lost
00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:46.539
sons. Yeah. That was wrong. Violence out here,
00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:49.800
it ain't Chicago that's killing people. It's
00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:52.619
the people that's killing one another. And I'm
00:52:52.619 --> 00:52:58.079
tired of it. Yeah, often more than one. There's
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:03.380
a truthfulness to the communication that I think
00:53:03.380 --> 00:53:09.900
is really what's needed more in mass media, popular
00:53:09.900 --> 00:53:15.179
culture. We don't get it that often. And when
00:53:15.179 --> 00:53:17.980
we do, I think people value a singer that they
00:53:17.980 --> 00:53:20.340
really believe or a musician that really connects
00:53:20.340 --> 00:53:22.940
with them on an emotional level. And certainly
00:53:22.940 --> 00:53:25.849
these people are... courageous and brave to share
00:53:25.849 --> 00:53:29.489
their voices and and when they do they're not
00:53:29.489 --> 00:53:32.449
it's not pretend i mean it's it's really coming
00:53:32.449 --> 00:53:38.050
from a extremely extremely deep place and there
00:53:38.050 --> 00:53:40.929
was a spoken word poetry all the young boys carry
00:53:40.929 --> 00:53:44.570
guns for toys so he knew that you would be there
00:53:44.570 --> 00:53:48.010
or he just had this yeah he he was one of the
00:53:48.010 --> 00:53:50.750
ones you know in a situation like this where
00:53:50.750 --> 00:53:52.989
there's kind of the people that that are set
00:53:52.989 --> 00:53:56.489
up that are more quote -unquote professional
00:53:56.489 --> 00:53:59.710
or or musicians or singers or you know whatever
00:53:59.710 --> 00:54:02.769
it may be so yeah he was one of the people that
00:54:02.769 --> 00:54:05.730
works with the program he's he was um like many
00:54:05.730 --> 00:54:07.989
of the people that that are on the record as
00:54:07.989 --> 00:54:10.090
well somebody who'd and that work in the program
00:54:10.090 --> 00:54:12.929
was somebody who was you know incarcerated for
00:54:12.929 --> 00:54:16.070
a long time and um took up poetry while he was
00:54:16.070 --> 00:54:19.369
there and has written one or two books of poetry
00:54:19.369 --> 00:54:22.869
so this is one of those poems yeah I have a clear
00:54:22.869 --> 00:54:26.230
view through my window to the main line of the
00:54:26.230 --> 00:54:30.070
darkest streets, and upon this line there is
00:54:30.070 --> 00:54:33.409
endless crime, for it is the place the darkest
00:54:33.409 --> 00:54:37.690
souls seek. I have a clear view through my window
00:54:37.690 --> 00:54:41.130
to the sadness of broken hearts. I'm reading
00:54:41.130 --> 00:54:45.030
a book, and there's a very moving story of this
00:54:45.030 --> 00:54:48.780
poet. when he was incarcerated was slipped a
00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:53.380
book of black poets when he was in solitary confinement
00:54:53.380 --> 00:54:55.539
and it was sort of smuggled into him and it changed
00:54:55.539 --> 00:54:57.199
the course of his life. I can't remember his
00:54:57.199 --> 00:55:00.420
name right now. No, that's, I think that's what
00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:04.059
we all, I think most of us that are not playing
00:55:04.059 --> 00:55:06.000
commercial music, I mean, I think we hope for
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:08.940
some version of that, that just, that it'll have
00:55:08.940 --> 00:55:13.400
positive impact on somebody's life. And I certainly
00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:17.280
would take, you know, something like that or
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:20.019
even subtler than that you know having an impact
00:55:20.019 --> 00:55:23.000
on somebody versus attention for attention's
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:26.199
sake yeah i last time we spoke about your book
00:55:26.199 --> 00:55:29.539
piece by piece about non -violent crisis intervention
00:55:29.539 --> 00:55:33.800
and i just wanted to i remember i had these quotes
00:55:33.800 --> 00:55:35.820
written down longhand from your book so i just
00:55:35.820 --> 00:55:37.800
wanted to ask you to reflect on a couple more
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:40.920
okay And I'll remind people your website's linked
00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:43.000
in the show notes if they want to contact you
00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:45.000
for any of that work that you do. Right, right.
00:55:45.139 --> 00:55:49.659
Yeah. So one thing, you talk about how we need
00:55:49.659 --> 00:55:53.099
to, well, you wrote, the body's constantly trying
00:55:53.099 --> 00:55:55.760
to race ahead of the mind and usurp it. The goal
00:55:55.760 --> 00:55:59.099
is to slow down the process and think to respond
00:55:59.099 --> 00:56:02.219
versus react. And you also talk about controlling
00:56:02.219 --> 00:56:06.500
your voice and you control yourself. Yeah, yeah.
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:09.449
I mean, those are just physical. aspects, but
00:56:09.449 --> 00:56:14.130
they're really fundamental. So the problem with
00:56:14.130 --> 00:56:18.349
the idea of being calm, you know, or mature is
00:56:18.349 --> 00:56:20.570
that most people believe they're calm and mature.
00:56:21.150 --> 00:56:24.690
And in fact, they'll usually shout how calm they
00:56:24.690 --> 00:56:28.869
are, you know, in defense of their, any accusation
00:56:28.869 --> 00:56:33.929
that they're not. And so we, you know, if we
00:56:33.929 --> 00:56:36.730
focus on something specific and concrete, then
00:56:36.730 --> 00:56:38.469
we're actually doing something that's measurable.
00:56:38.829 --> 00:56:41.630
And so the voice is so critical because normally
00:56:41.630 --> 00:56:44.650
we're not in control of our voice. Those sounds
00:56:44.650 --> 00:56:47.369
are not made when they're authentic. They happen.
00:56:47.550 --> 00:56:50.269
So with humor, with pain, with sexuality, with
00:56:50.269 --> 00:56:54.210
fear, sounds emanate that probably can never
00:56:54.210 --> 00:56:56.510
be recreated. I think we've all had that experience
00:56:56.510 --> 00:57:00.130
with a pet or with a loved one. you hear something
00:57:00.130 --> 00:57:01.869
and you realize, oh, shit, there's something
00:57:01.869 --> 00:57:04.949
wrong, you know, like medically wrong or, you
00:57:04.949 --> 00:57:09.050
know, something different. And so if we control
00:57:09.050 --> 00:57:11.769
our voice, meaning just the volume of our voice,
00:57:11.869 --> 00:57:13.789
because that's what we usually lose self -control
00:57:13.789 --> 00:57:17.610
of first, then we're not calm, I mean, but we're
00:57:17.610 --> 00:57:19.610
calmer. You know, we're doing something specific.
00:57:20.750 --> 00:57:23.250
And this part of the brain is what we're trying
00:57:23.250 --> 00:57:26.210
to use, but this part of the brain... operates
00:57:26.210 --> 00:57:28.309
three times more quickly gets triggered three
00:57:28.309 --> 00:57:30.690
times more quickly and so it's it's difficult
00:57:30.690 --> 00:57:34.510
um and that's why it's kind of provable that
00:57:34.510 --> 00:57:38.909
you know 50 to 90 plus percent of assaults and
00:57:38.909 --> 00:57:42.389
and you know murders and pretty much accidents
00:57:42.389 --> 00:57:44.250
that you know pretty much everything that people
00:57:44.250 --> 00:57:46.670
don't want to be doing usually occurs when they're
00:57:46.670 --> 00:57:49.110
intoxicated you know it doesn't mean they're
00:57:49.110 --> 00:57:51.530
they're you know falling down drunk but it just
00:57:51.530 --> 00:57:54.030
means that they're not functioning quite as well
00:57:54.860 --> 00:57:56.900
cognitively as their executive functioning is
00:57:56.900 --> 00:58:00.880
it normally is and as a result of that they might
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:02.900
have a slip of the tongue and say something to
00:58:02.900 --> 00:58:05.019
their boss that gets them fired and they wouldn't
00:58:05.019 --> 00:58:07.940
normally say or or you know they might you know
00:58:07.940 --> 00:58:10.780
stumble on some stairs that they you know three
00:58:10.780 --> 00:58:13.139
steps to their house that they normally are able
00:58:13.139 --> 00:58:15.440
to go up back and forth with no problem you know
00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:19.860
so if we try to use this part of our brain you
00:58:19.860 --> 00:58:23.000
know and really invest in that then then we're
00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:25.369
usually going to be slightly better off. That's
00:58:25.369 --> 00:58:27.610
basically the brakes, you know, as opposed to
00:58:27.610 --> 00:58:30.429
trying to judge the impulse, you know, which
00:58:30.429 --> 00:58:32.849
is what people that are very moralistic want
00:58:32.849 --> 00:58:34.789
to do. You know, that person's bad because they're
00:58:34.789 --> 00:58:36.730
violent. It's like, well, there's no such thing
00:58:36.730 --> 00:58:39.150
as a violent person. There's a lot more to that
00:58:39.150 --> 00:58:41.190
person than just that, even if they've been violent,
00:58:41.329 --> 00:58:43.809
you know, and there's no such thing as an angry
00:58:43.809 --> 00:58:47.369
person. That's a very angry concept. And so instead,
00:58:47.670 --> 00:58:51.309
you know, we can focus on hopefully being constructive
00:58:51.309 --> 00:58:54.880
and not destructive. So really separating the
00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:58.159
behavior from the person. Yeah. Yeah. Not labeling
00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:01.360
someone, which is very tempting to do and very
00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:05.619
easy to do. And in some cases, almost inevitable,
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:07.659
you know, meaning as a way of communicating,
00:59:07.880 --> 00:59:10.780
but it's not communicating the reality. And so
00:59:10.780 --> 00:59:13.940
we really want to focus on specific behavior,
00:59:14.099 --> 00:59:18.079
you know, because everybody engages in bad behavior
00:59:18.079 --> 00:59:21.099
to some degree. And the comparisons is usually
00:59:21.099 --> 00:59:22.500
what gets people into trouble. You know, they
00:59:22.500 --> 00:59:25.210
want to compare themselves to the worst as if
00:59:25.210 --> 00:59:27.230
that's a defense and it's like well it's not
00:59:27.230 --> 00:59:29.150
a good defense it's not a good defense that you're
00:59:29.150 --> 00:59:31.190
not a serial killer it's not a good defense that
00:59:31.190 --> 00:59:33.230
you're not a pedophile those aren't good defenses
00:59:33.230 --> 00:59:38.449
so have we done things that are less than perfect
00:59:38.449 --> 00:59:40.829
yeah we have and it's better to focus on those
00:59:40.829 --> 00:59:43.670
and acknowledge them as small as they may be
00:59:43.670 --> 00:59:47.170
it it's not a contest so it doesn't matter that
00:59:47.170 --> 00:59:49.909
it's so much lesser than others it's not a damnation
00:59:49.909 --> 00:59:53.119
it's just a recognition of oh I did this and
00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:56.719
I'm imperfect and maybe I can do better next
00:59:56.719 --> 01:00:02.840
time. You wrote, oh yeah, about this volume stuff.
01:00:03.579 --> 01:00:05.780
I guess it's kind of the same. You said the objective
01:00:05.780 --> 01:00:08.019
measure of calmness is to speak more quietly
01:00:08.019 --> 01:00:11.059
than the person we're interacting with. So to
01:00:11.059 --> 01:00:13.300
just keep lowering that to bring them down, I
01:00:13.300 --> 01:00:16.500
guess. Yeah, yeah. I mean, modeling the behavior,
01:00:16.619 --> 01:00:19.099
you want them to reflect back. And also, you
01:00:19.099 --> 01:00:23.780
know, there's kind of that, paradox, you know,
01:00:23.800 --> 01:00:25.860
which is, that's counterintuitive that, that
01:00:25.860 --> 01:00:28.199
when you're quieter, oftentimes people are more
01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:30.260
interested in listening to what you have to say.
01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:33.099
You know, like if, if you are whispering, most
01:00:33.099 --> 01:00:34.599
people really want to hear what you're saying
01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:36.320
because they think you're saying something, you
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:37.719
know, they get paranoid that, you know, they
01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:39.500
think you're saying something about them or whatever
01:00:39.500 --> 01:00:41.460
it might be, but there tends to be an interest
01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:43.940
in that. And, you know, I, I use the example,
01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:46.960
I believe it was Peggy Lee, but, uh, that when
01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:50.420
she started as a bar singer, She was a belter,
01:00:50.500 --> 01:00:52.320
you know, because that was kind of the fashion
01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:57.139
at the time. And and she wasn't very successful,
01:00:57.219 --> 01:00:59.079
you know, like she was successful enough that,
01:00:59.119 --> 01:01:02.659
you know, in those days, early television days
01:01:02.659 --> 01:01:06.059
or maybe even a little bit pre -television, some
01:01:06.059 --> 01:01:08.119
of it. But, you know, that you could you could
01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:10.639
perform every night because people go out most
01:01:10.639 --> 01:01:13.800
nights and, you know, and you perform for many,
01:01:13.900 --> 01:01:16.139
many hours, that sort of thing. So, you know,
01:01:16.139 --> 01:01:18.719
she could. She could do it professionally, but
01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:22.320
she wasn't a success, so to speak. And the way
01:01:22.320 --> 01:01:24.440
I always recalled the story, which maybe isn't
01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:27.019
100 % accurate, was that one night she just decided,
01:01:27.139 --> 01:01:30.079
realized, as she would sing, and people were
01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:33.639
eating and clinking glasses and chattering above
01:01:33.639 --> 01:01:35.960
her as loud as she's singing, that she would
01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:40.099
come out and just whisper as she sang, sing as
01:01:40.099 --> 01:01:42.940
quietly as she could. And she started doing that,
01:01:43.079 --> 01:01:47.920
and the room just hushed. You know, much more
01:01:47.920 --> 01:01:50.420
than if they've been shushed or told to lower
01:01:50.420 --> 01:01:52.960
their voices. And that essentially became her
01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:55.780
singing style. And it's influenced a lot of other
01:01:55.780 --> 01:01:58.639
people who have no idea who she is, you know,
01:01:58.659 --> 01:02:00.500
like it's, you know, through the generations.
01:02:01.500 --> 01:02:05.239
You wrote, use what and how questions. They tend
01:02:05.239 --> 01:02:07.500
to elicit more honest and detailed information,
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:11.940
whereas closed yes, no questions often coerce.
01:02:13.019 --> 01:02:15.500
So not, is everything all right, but how are
01:02:15.500 --> 01:02:20.010
you feeling? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes, no is open,
01:02:20.090 --> 01:02:23.789
shut, black, white, binary. It's all that stuff
01:02:23.789 --> 01:02:25.590
that we're trying to avoid, but people use them.
01:02:25.690 --> 01:02:28.590
It's normal to use them. And it's a shortcut,
01:02:28.769 --> 01:02:31.630
you know, because I ask you a question within
01:02:31.630 --> 01:02:34.869
that question of a yes, no is usually an indicated
01:02:34.869 --> 01:02:38.110
correct answer. You know, it makes people critical.
01:02:38.210 --> 01:02:40.949
It makes them fearful to be right or wrong, all
01:02:40.949 --> 01:02:43.469
that stuff, as opposed to simply focusing on
01:02:43.469 --> 01:02:46.539
not can we do this, but. How are we going to
01:02:46.539 --> 01:02:49.300
do this? What do we need to do? You know, and
01:02:49.300 --> 01:02:52.980
putting the focus there. Not, is everything good?
01:02:53.159 --> 01:02:56.440
Is everything okay? But, you know, what can I
01:02:56.440 --> 01:02:58.340
do? What can I do to make it better? You know,
01:02:58.340 --> 01:03:01.400
what are some things that would make you happier
01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:04.599
in our relationship? And those are the questions
01:03:04.599 --> 01:03:06.719
that aren't usually asked for a variety of reasons,
01:03:06.820 --> 01:03:09.860
but they tend to be, you know, they tend to be
01:03:09.860 --> 01:03:13.960
more, you know, productive in terms of getting...
01:03:14.380 --> 01:03:16.659
real answers, getting the truth from another
01:03:16.659 --> 01:03:20.159
individual. Oh, yeah. You talk about care and
01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:22.900
communication like you're at a job interview
01:03:22.900 --> 01:03:24.980
or a first date, like when you want to make the
01:03:24.980 --> 01:03:27.400
best first impression, but to continue that in
01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:29.039
your interactions with people you know well.
01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:32.599
Yeah. Yeah. We don't get in that much trouble
01:03:32.599 --> 01:03:34.559
when we're being careful. I mean, any extreme
01:03:34.559 --> 01:03:38.860
is problematic. So I certainly don't advocate
01:03:38.860 --> 01:03:41.820
for walking around wrapped in bubble wrap and
01:03:41.820 --> 01:03:43.960
that sort of thing. I mean, it's like, there
01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:46.599
are limits but in general when you're being careful
01:03:46.599 --> 01:03:50.880
you're okay and and uh and that applies to pretty
01:03:50.880 --> 01:03:54.340
much everything um you know that's why i always
01:03:54.340 --> 01:03:56.780
give the advice that if you're late slow down
01:03:56.780 --> 01:03:59.159
you know like do the opposite of what you normally
01:03:59.159 --> 01:04:01.219
would do like don't don't get hurt or killed
01:04:01.219 --> 01:04:04.019
over two minutes or three minutes or an hour
01:04:04.019 --> 01:04:07.400
or one missed flight or whatever it may be you
01:04:07.400 --> 01:04:09.960
know um and i mean i almost every time i'm at
01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:11.559
the airport i see at least one person running
01:04:11.559 --> 01:04:13.510
through the airport and it's just like Don't,
01:04:13.510 --> 01:04:15.969
it's not worth it. Don't, don't stroke. You know,
01:04:15.969 --> 01:04:17.750
they look like they're literally going to, you
01:04:17.750 --> 01:04:19.469
know, seize up and it's like, it's not worth
01:04:19.469 --> 01:04:23.210
it. You know, like really, um, and in almost
01:04:23.210 --> 01:04:26.329
all cases. And, and so with communication, it's
01:04:26.329 --> 01:04:29.050
similar. It's just, if, if we really are careful,
01:04:29.190 --> 01:04:32.349
which means just being thoughtful and not being
01:04:32.349 --> 01:04:34.969
passive in the communication and not burdening,
01:04:34.969 --> 01:04:37.730
burdening the other person, um, with the yes,
01:04:37.730 --> 01:04:40.550
no questions, that sort of thing, then, you know,
01:04:40.550 --> 01:04:42.639
it. It'll probably, it doesn't mean it'll go
01:04:42.639 --> 01:04:44.519
great, but it means that probably the communication
01:04:44.519 --> 01:04:48.079
will, again, be more neutral or even positive
01:04:48.079 --> 01:04:51.820
in its outcome. Yeah, there's one more thing
01:04:51.820 --> 01:04:54.679
I wanted to get you to reflect back on. You wrote,
01:04:54.780 --> 01:04:57.739
beware that almost everyone becomes a better
01:04:57.739 --> 01:05:00.659
and more contemplative person during the lull
01:05:00.659 --> 01:05:03.559
following a crisis. The task is to find a way
01:05:03.559 --> 01:05:07.070
to sustain that sensitivity and gratitude. over
01:05:07.070 --> 01:05:10.010
days, weeks, years, across a lifetime. I thought
01:05:10.010 --> 01:05:13.170
that was so beautiful. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah.
01:05:13.190 --> 01:05:15.750
It's something I try to work at. And I think
01:05:15.750 --> 01:05:20.530
it's important is that, you know, it's when right
01:05:20.530 --> 01:05:24.150
after a crisis is when people are more reflective
01:05:24.150 --> 01:05:28.369
and vulnerable and open to change and usually
01:05:28.369 --> 01:05:32.349
vow to change, you know, and the dark side of
01:05:32.349 --> 01:05:35.269
that is that that's the abusive cycle, you know.
01:05:35.630 --> 01:05:37.949
somebody's abusive and then they're apologetic
01:05:37.949 --> 01:05:39.949
and so it seems like okay there's hope and then
01:05:39.949 --> 01:05:42.550
it happens again because it's a pattern you know
01:05:42.550 --> 01:05:47.050
but otherwise for most of us it's it's it should
01:05:47.050 --> 01:05:49.530
be opportunities when there's a near miss so
01:05:49.530 --> 01:05:52.489
to speak medically or or interpersonally or whatever
01:05:52.489 --> 01:05:55.369
it might be it's an opportunity to like okay
01:05:55.369 --> 01:05:57.989
prevent this from happening again hopefully if
01:05:57.989 --> 01:06:01.110
we can and and in a lot of cases we can but then
01:06:01.110 --> 01:06:05.880
people slowly slip back into the previous behavior
01:06:05.880 --> 01:06:09.900
um and it never is well i shouldn't say never
01:06:09.900 --> 01:06:11.599
sometimes sometimes somebody just goes off the
01:06:11.599 --> 01:06:14.480
deep end let's say with addiction but but more
01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:17.199
often it's gradual you know i've seen that i've
01:06:17.199 --> 01:06:20.219
seen that happen with friends you know um and
01:06:20.219 --> 01:06:23.639
some people can manage those things but most
01:06:23.639 --> 01:06:26.300
people can't so for them it really has to be
01:06:26.300 --> 01:06:31.079
a bright line but i had a friend who sadly uh
01:06:31.079 --> 01:06:34.949
you know ended his own life and and his addiction
01:06:34.949 --> 01:06:39.909
was very severe and um and you know he got sober
01:06:39.909 --> 01:06:42.429
at one point but then just started that that
01:06:42.429 --> 01:06:46.170
creeping back and i have another friend who overdosed
01:06:46.170 --> 01:06:49.449
23 times and still alive and finally got sober
01:06:49.449 --> 01:06:52.090
the 23rd time you know so there's a variety of
01:06:52.090 --> 01:06:55.650
ways that that can go but i remember another
01:06:55.650 --> 01:07:00.449
friend who um the night that uh after you know
01:07:00.860 --> 01:07:03.139
having a really bad episode, you know, with alcohol
01:07:03.139 --> 01:07:06.380
and realizing that there was a problem, became
01:07:06.380 --> 01:07:08.340
sober for many, many months. And it was that
01:07:08.340 --> 01:07:10.559
thing of, ah, it's just one glass of wine at
01:07:10.559 --> 01:07:13.679
dinner. And, you know, it's like, okay, you know,
01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:16.079
and then that became two glasses pretty soon
01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:19.780
and all that. So, you know, we, we hopefully
01:07:19.780 --> 01:07:23.079
can really continue to feel that what that feels
01:07:23.079 --> 01:07:26.059
like when you really have a crisis, you know,
01:07:26.059 --> 01:07:29.599
and if we do that. then we have better chances
01:07:29.599 --> 01:07:33.079
of not repeating the ultimately self -destructive
01:07:33.079 --> 01:07:36.699
behavior usually. Yeah. And I'm sure it applies
01:07:36.699 --> 01:07:41.619
more broadly to when someone dies or different
01:07:41.619 --> 01:07:44.420
kind of, like you said, a health scare, all kinds
01:07:44.420 --> 01:07:47.340
of things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. If we could only,
01:07:47.619 --> 01:07:50.079
and I think some people do, if we could only
01:07:50.079 --> 01:07:53.739
hold on to that level of intimacy or that level
01:07:53.739 --> 01:07:59.380
of vulnerability or honesty, You know, but it's
01:07:59.380 --> 01:08:02.579
not easy. No one should be faulted for not doing
01:08:02.579 --> 01:08:05.800
it. It's just, you know, it's just advisable
01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:10.380
to do our best to try to, you know, continue
01:08:10.380 --> 01:08:13.119
to be that sensitized. I wanted to get to the
01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:16.239
Parchment Prison Prayer. You had been there.
01:08:16.300 --> 01:08:20.979
You've recorded two albums there. And the second,
01:08:21.079 --> 01:08:22.640
I was curious, in one of your books you wrote,
01:08:22.699 --> 01:08:24.460
instead of attending the Grammys, I opted to
01:08:24.460 --> 01:08:26.159
fly to Mississippi and record with prisoners.
01:08:26.920 --> 01:08:29.039
at the notorious parchment prison was that the
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:32.279
first time you recorded or the second time yeah
01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:34.920
that was the first time okay yeah yeah and they
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:36.899
just gave you permission one week before is that
01:08:36.899 --> 01:08:40.460
right yeah um it was something that had been
01:08:40.460 --> 01:08:43.960
in the works for years um but not very successfully
01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:49.220
in the works so in other words i i started i
01:08:49.220 --> 01:08:52.520
attempted to do it many years before and then
01:08:52.520 --> 01:08:55.729
they had huge crisis there, huge scandals there,
01:08:55.890 --> 01:08:59.130
deaths and suicides and a lot of negative attention
01:08:59.130 --> 01:09:04.369
in the media. And then COVID happened. But following
01:09:04.369 --> 01:09:08.590
COVID, they had a complete change in the whole
01:09:08.590 --> 01:09:11.890
state of Mississippi and the prison itself, you
01:09:11.890 --> 01:09:13.409
know, changed everything, you know, changed the
01:09:13.409 --> 01:09:16.210
leadership and the culture and has done quite
01:09:16.210 --> 01:09:19.550
a wonderful job. I mean, it's an imperfect thing
01:09:19.550 --> 01:09:21.649
because it's such a big system and obviously
01:09:21.649 --> 01:09:25.659
prison systems are by design, you know, pretty
01:09:25.659 --> 01:09:30.899
messy and dystopian. It's hard to avoid that
01:09:30.899 --> 01:09:34.520
entirely. But when the new management came up
01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:36.819
and it was entirely different and it was like,
01:09:36.859 --> 01:09:40.560
yeah, there was an openness. But the confirmation
01:09:40.560 --> 01:09:42.960
that it could happen was completely last minute.
01:09:44.100 --> 01:09:46.899
So, you know, but I booked the flight. I went
01:09:46.899 --> 01:09:48.659
there. I didn't know what was going to happen.
01:09:48.779 --> 01:09:52.949
It's a classic situation, really. but it was
01:09:52.949 --> 01:09:55.010
beyond anything i could have ever imagined you
01:09:55.010 --> 01:09:57.289
know was was you know just person after person
01:09:57.289 --> 01:10:00.510
after person after person now these were people
01:10:00.510 --> 01:10:04.390
that that the chaplains had had is selected from
01:10:04.390 --> 01:10:06.329
different areas most of them were from different
01:10:06.329 --> 01:10:08.489
parts of the prison it's a massive prison it's
01:10:08.489 --> 01:10:11.449
25 square miles i think is the property itself
01:10:11.449 --> 01:10:14.689
and so that you know they they chosen people
01:10:14.689 --> 01:10:17.909
that a wanted to do it and then b that they thought
01:10:17.909 --> 01:10:21.140
were good and and you know Just some incredible
01:10:21.140 --> 01:10:23.859
voices and incredible singers. So I wanted to
01:10:23.859 --> 01:10:27.039
include clips from both of these records. Yeah.
01:10:27.079 --> 01:10:30.119
To point people to both of them. The first album,
01:10:30.260 --> 01:10:33.500
track three, Break Every Chain. Just some great
01:10:33.500 --> 01:10:37.520
singing. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible singing. Yeah.
01:10:38.260 --> 01:10:47.600
There is power in the name of Jesus. There is
01:10:47.600 --> 01:10:58.050
power. In the name of Jesus There is power In
01:10:58.050 --> 01:11:05.930
the name of Jesus To break every chain Break
01:11:05.930 --> 01:11:12.829
every chain Break every chain To break every
01:11:12.829 --> 01:11:16.939
chain They knew that I... to be there with them
01:11:16.939 --> 01:11:18.399
rather than at the Grammys, but I told them at
01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:21.560
the end, this is, you know, many of the singers
01:11:21.560 --> 01:11:24.359
here are better than, as good as anything that's
01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:26.020
going to be at the Grammys tonight. And I meant
01:11:26.020 --> 01:11:28.479
that. It's not a competition, but really, just
01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:32.539
world -class singing. And then the next year
01:11:32.539 --> 01:11:37.199
was, happened to fall in the Super Bowl. So that
01:11:37.199 --> 01:11:41.119
was interesting in its own right for travel purposes,
01:11:41.359 --> 01:11:44.229
you know, to be traveling, you know. It was kind
01:11:44.229 --> 01:11:46.109
of a good day to travel because most people in
01:11:46.109 --> 01:11:48.229
America weren't traveling. So the planes were
01:11:48.229 --> 01:11:51.369
empty and the airports were pretty empty as well
01:11:51.369 --> 01:11:55.989
and that sort of thing. But, you know, and the
01:11:55.989 --> 01:11:58.069
second time it was easier in a lot of ways because
01:11:58.069 --> 01:12:01.369
the people that had done it before were even
01:12:01.369 --> 01:12:04.430
more committed to the process. And then there
01:12:04.430 --> 01:12:07.210
were new people and they were great, too. It's
01:12:07.210 --> 01:12:10.279
a very old prison, over 100 years old. Yeah,
01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:12.300
it's very old. It's the oldest in the system
01:12:12.300 --> 01:12:16.840
there. And, you know, the state itself is very
01:12:16.840 --> 01:12:21.640
impoverished. And, you know, it has a very rough
01:12:21.640 --> 01:12:24.159
history, you know, dating back over 100 years
01:12:24.159 --> 01:12:27.779
to being a farm system, you know, where people
01:12:27.779 --> 01:12:31.300
were basically doing forced labor. And obviously,
01:12:31.460 --> 01:12:37.970
that thankfully has ended, but largely... based
01:12:37.970 --> 01:12:41.710
on the physical buildings and the system itself
01:12:41.710 --> 01:12:44.329
and not having the funds that maybe others have,
01:12:44.529 --> 01:12:48.689
there have been issues also. But it is the maximum
01:12:48.689 --> 01:12:51.630
security prison for the state, and it houses
01:12:51.630 --> 01:12:53.750
their death row, and they do have death row in
01:12:53.750 --> 01:12:56.510
their state. I mean, they do have the death penalty
01:12:56.510 --> 01:13:01.130
in their state. And if people look, there's documentaries
01:13:01.130 --> 01:13:04.569
about the history of abuses and neglect and current
01:13:04.569 --> 01:13:10.229
situation. On the second album, track four is
01:13:10.229 --> 01:13:14.850
a rap with this guy's beatboxing and sort of,
01:13:14.850 --> 01:13:17.550
I don't know if it's an ironic, it's called MC
01:13:17.550 --> 01:13:21.250
Hammer, the title of the track. Right, right.
01:13:22.010 --> 01:13:24.350
I don't think he's that ironic about it. I think
01:13:24.350 --> 01:13:26.710
he's pretty serious. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you
01:13:26.710 --> 01:13:30.189
know, it can be probably taken that way and probably
01:13:30.189 --> 01:13:34.470
piques interest because MC Hammer is, you know,
01:13:34.470 --> 01:13:38.500
such a... You know, kind of pop culture character
01:13:38.500 --> 01:13:44.260
that has had impact largely because of his uniqueness
01:13:44.260 --> 01:13:49.739
as a public figure for decades. But he became
01:13:49.739 --> 01:13:52.739
a preacher. I mean, that was a chapter that a
01:13:52.739 --> 01:13:55.340
lot of people don't recall. In fact, I think
01:13:55.340 --> 01:13:58.079
pretty early on, I think not long after his big
01:13:58.079 --> 01:14:00.000
commercial success, he started transitioning
01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:03.140
into doing religious music and became a preacher,
01:14:03.199 --> 01:14:06.010
that sort of thing. I'm not sure it's ironic.
01:14:06.149 --> 01:14:10.850
I try not to judge. I try to really take people
01:14:10.850 --> 01:14:15.170
at face value of what they present. Not assuming
01:14:15.170 --> 01:14:19.909
that they're being ironic. Certainly, I'm never
01:14:19.909 --> 01:14:23.130
trying to be provocative or make fun of anybody.
01:14:23.229 --> 01:14:25.590
Quite the opposite. I'm just trying to listen
01:14:25.590 --> 01:14:33.819
to them and what they want to communicate. Keep
01:14:33.819 --> 01:14:36.600
God on my mind like I fit it. Exhausted cause
01:14:36.600 --> 01:14:38.899
I'm doing a whole sentence. They ask me how I
01:14:38.899 --> 01:14:41.720
do it, God did it. Got some rap on a whole nother
01:14:41.720 --> 01:14:44.060
level. Took the stairs, didn't use the elevator.
01:14:44.680 --> 01:14:48.300
God line me up right. Bevels, all baseline, no
01:14:48.300 --> 01:14:50.859
trouble. Shouldn't have did it wrong, now I miss
01:14:50.859 --> 01:14:53.640
it, right. Lord forgive me, I'm a sinner, right.
01:15:05.050 --> 01:15:12.829
Yeah, I mean, I think I read that in like a review
01:15:12.829 --> 01:15:15.390
of the record. I didn't understand the reference.
01:15:16.350 --> 01:15:18.850
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think it remains
01:15:18.850 --> 01:15:21.750
an open question. Like, like, I, I'd say really,
01:15:21.869 --> 01:15:24.130
it's probably more complex that it probably is
01:15:24.130 --> 01:15:26.550
ironic and not ironic at the same time, you know,
01:15:26.550 --> 01:15:30.109
like, you know, a little bit ironic, maybe. And
01:15:30.109 --> 01:15:32.970
track one from the second album, Parchment Prison
01:15:32.970 --> 01:15:35.710
Blues, from what I understand, six men were improvising.
01:15:35.989 --> 01:15:38.789
It was the last track recorded that day. Yeah,
01:15:38.829 --> 01:15:41.970
it was the last track recorded, improvisation
01:15:41.970 --> 01:15:45.689
and I think a lot of the best things happen that
01:15:45.689 --> 01:15:48.229
way, you know, where people are really in the
01:15:48.229 --> 01:15:52.529
moment and trusting their instincts. And it's
01:15:52.529 --> 01:15:55.109
beautiful. You know, I mean, for me, the measure
01:15:55.109 --> 01:15:59.010
of value is largely does this sound different
01:15:59.010 --> 01:16:01.350
than what I've heard before? And that's rare,
01:16:01.510 --> 01:16:04.189
you know, because the 100 ,000 songs that are
01:16:04.189 --> 01:16:06.800
uploaded today, the majority of them. I can't
01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:08.180
say the majority because I can't listen to all
01:16:08.180 --> 01:16:11.300
of them, but a sample of them, the majority of
01:16:11.300 --> 01:16:13.920
those sound very much the same. You know, there's
01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:17.539
not a lot of variety. So anytime there's something
01:16:17.539 --> 01:16:20.859
that I can't draw a line from it to something
01:16:20.859 --> 01:16:22.739
else very easily, then it's like, okay, this
01:16:22.739 --> 01:16:24.520
has value. You know, I don't know if I like it.
01:16:24.760 --> 01:16:26.960
I don't know if it's good. You know, I'm not
01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:29.159
trying to judge it in that way, but I know that
01:16:29.159 --> 01:16:32.539
it's different. And therefore, I believe it serves
01:16:32.539 --> 01:17:20.159
a purpose that... Redundancy does not. You know,
01:17:20.159 --> 01:17:23.079
I did want to ask you about some of your earlier
01:17:23.079 --> 01:17:25.579
projects, and I'm hoping in future conversations
01:17:25.579 --> 01:17:28.239
we can get to mix things up a bit. Ramblin' Jack
01:17:28.239 --> 01:17:32.199
Elliott. Yeah, yeah. When he was 75, you recorded
01:17:32.199 --> 01:17:35.920
this album with him, I Stand Alone. Right. I
01:17:35.920 --> 01:17:37.560
was curious how you met him or how that came
01:17:37.560 --> 01:17:44.220
about. Oh, I met him because I was doing an organized
01:17:44.220 --> 01:17:47.000
benefit show with Merle Haggard, who'd had a
01:17:47.000 --> 01:17:50.840
bit of a... comeback or a crossover into the
01:17:50.840 --> 01:17:52.960
alternative world because he was on tom waits
01:17:52.960 --> 01:17:56.840
label and um uh i put out a record on tom waits
01:17:56.840 --> 01:17:59.560
label and it was a really good record and and
01:17:59.560 --> 01:18:02.899
so uh i had him play this little theater like
01:18:02.899 --> 01:18:06.239
500 seat theater in san francisco as a benefit
01:18:06.239 --> 01:18:11.119
and i asked um ramlin jack to open up because
01:18:11.119 --> 01:18:13.340
he's based in the bay area has been based in
01:18:13.340 --> 01:18:15.739
the bay area for a long time and so he came and
01:18:15.739 --> 01:18:20.850
he did And and so on his writer, you know, it
01:18:20.850 --> 01:18:24.229
said to have a bottle of, you know, Maker's Mark
01:18:24.229 --> 01:18:29.750
backstage for him. And and then what in the time
01:18:29.750 --> 01:18:31.329
leading up, I don't know if it was the week before
01:18:31.329 --> 01:18:33.850
the days before the day of I can't it might have
01:18:33.850 --> 01:18:35.810
been the day of his manager called and said,
01:18:35.930 --> 01:18:39.189
no, you do not have that in his dressing room.
01:18:39.289 --> 01:18:41.010
And I'm like, OK, you know, I think it was the
01:18:41.010 --> 01:18:42.909
day because I'd already bought it. So I took
01:18:42.909 --> 01:18:45.300
it out and then. and then as soon as he got there
01:18:45.300 --> 01:18:47.680
i'd never met him before he said where's my maker's
01:18:47.680 --> 01:18:50.039
mark and i said oh well we don't have it you
01:18:50.039 --> 01:18:53.640
know and so what the point of the story is that
01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:56.060
it ended up being the first show that he'd performed
01:18:56.060 --> 01:19:01.000
sober in decades and so he was understandably
01:19:01.000 --> 01:19:06.500
nervous about that and uh and and so we uh you
01:19:06.500 --> 01:19:09.579
know he went out there he did the show it was
01:19:09.579 --> 01:19:12.319
a huge success you know this packed house was
01:19:12.319 --> 01:19:14.340
excited because they're seeing Merle Haggard
01:19:14.340 --> 01:19:17.500
in this tiny space, relatively tiny space for
01:19:17.500 --> 01:19:20.819
an artist of his stature. And, you know, Bramlin
01:19:20.819 --> 01:19:23.340
Jack got, I think, two standing ovations. And,
01:19:23.340 --> 01:19:27.199
you know, and so it really was a pivotal moment
01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:30.220
for him. And so we did other shows together.
01:19:30.340 --> 01:19:32.539
We did another show also with Merle Haggard and
01:19:32.539 --> 01:19:34.939
him down in L .A. and the Blind Boys of Alabama,
01:19:35.260 --> 01:19:40.600
another benefit show. And and and at some point
01:19:40.600 --> 01:19:43.300
it just came to me. I'm like, oh. You know, it
01:19:43.300 --> 01:19:45.100
was not nothing I'd ever thought about, but I
01:19:45.100 --> 01:19:48.140
was just like, let's let's maybe do a record.
01:19:48.220 --> 01:19:50.659
And so we did. And it was recorded live and,
01:19:50.659 --> 01:19:53.859
you know, in the studio. But but, you know, live.
01:19:54.539 --> 01:19:58.640
And it was it was he was great. I mean, he's
01:19:58.640 --> 01:20:02.119
a great singer and great interpreter. And and
01:20:02.119 --> 01:20:04.539
then it went on to get nominated for a Grammy
01:20:04.539 --> 01:20:07.920
nomination, I think, in the period where it was
01:20:07.920 --> 01:20:11.569
more possible for. a smaller record like that,
01:20:11.630 --> 01:20:15.369
let's say, with less institutional support to
01:20:15.369 --> 01:20:18.390
get that kind of nomination. It's a little different
01:20:18.390 --> 01:20:20.970
now. I think it's become harder. Sometimes some
01:20:20.970 --> 01:20:22.770
really good records get nominated, but I think
01:20:22.770 --> 01:20:26.329
it's become harder than before. But it received
01:20:26.329 --> 01:20:28.109
a Grammy nomination, and that was a great thing.
01:20:28.770 --> 01:20:30.649
I understand his daughter made a documentary
01:20:30.649 --> 01:20:34.069
about his life, which I haven't seen yet. It's
01:20:34.069 --> 01:20:35.789
a great documentary. Yeah, she did. And that
01:20:35.789 --> 01:20:38.390
was before the album. Yeah, and that was part
01:20:38.390 --> 01:20:42.560
of what... led to a a renewed interest or awareness
01:20:42.560 --> 01:20:46.119
of him and and his you know his history and his
01:20:46.119 --> 01:20:50.720
his impact you know on on a young bob dylan and
01:20:50.720 --> 01:20:53.800
and just within the folk scene itself also in
01:20:53.800 --> 01:20:55.619
britain you know he had a lot of impact there
01:20:55.619 --> 01:21:00.039
with um there's a story i think of uh rod stewart
01:21:00.039 --> 01:21:02.939
seeing him busk rambling jack busk on a on a
01:21:02.939 --> 01:21:06.039
train platform somewhere in the uk things like
01:21:06.039 --> 01:21:08.909
that you know and one of the albums that I think
01:21:08.909 --> 01:21:11.829
Keith Richards had was that he played a lot was,
01:21:11.890 --> 01:21:14.090
was a Ramblin' Jack Elliott record back in the
01:21:14.090 --> 01:21:17.130
fifties. Okay. When he was a kid, you know. Well,
01:21:17.189 --> 01:21:18.909
that's great. So thanks so much for this today.
01:21:19.430 --> 01:21:21.529
You know, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:21:22.510 --> 01:21:25.270
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Keep in mind,
01:21:25.289 --> 01:21:28.130
I've also linked directly several episodes you'll
01:21:28.130 --> 01:21:30.130
find interesting in the show notes of this one.
01:21:30.670 --> 01:21:32.789
Please do share this with your friends and check
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01:21:35.529 --> 01:21:38.350
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