WEBVTT
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Why do you keep telling everybody what they need to learn?
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I don't do that. Well, except for every meeting you do.
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And I thought, well, I got mad at that. And
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I did what every mature principal would do. I got up,
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stormed out of my own office.
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This is Control Shift Lead, Season 3. With Jim Wichman
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and Adam Bush on the Forward Ed Network. Control what
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you can.
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Shift your thinking. Lead with purpose.
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All right, season three, we're back. And instead of spending
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this season interviewing people about leadership, Jim and I want
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to spend more time actually talking about it.
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Real questions, real situations, and people at the table who
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are willing to wrestle with with all of us. And
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when we were talking about this, I mean, this is
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going to be just like Brene Brown says, we're going
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to jump into the arena and we're going to battle
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armor off.
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I love it. Well, today we have Dr. Jill Urich
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and Kara Haisley Mitchell. You're here for our first one.
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And we're going to start right away with the adults
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in our building. So we're going to kick it off.
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We're going to get going. Jill, I'm going to kick
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it to you. Get our conversation started tonight. Let's start
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with something that I think leaders hear a lot. And
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that is when teachers say they want autonomy, what do
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you think they're really asking for?
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Teachers, in my experience, want to be trusted for the
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expertise that they bring to the table. They are experts
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in things that I am not an expert in. And
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so I think honoring that and they want to be
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valued for that. They want to be valued for the
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gifts they bring to the table. And the autonomy comes
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with clear expectations and like they want to know what's
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my sandbox, right? And then who is in my sandbox?
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Who am I going to collaborate with so that we
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know what we're going to be tight on? And then
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within those tight parameters, have that autonomy to meet the
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needs of every student they serve.
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Yeah, we talk about that a lot. I think the
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term we use in my school district is guardrails. You know,
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what are your guardrails that you can work within? But
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I do, I think people do want that autonomy, but
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I also think at times the guardrails matter more sometimes
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than that freedom. Like without it, sometimes you're almost paralyzed,
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don't even know where to go from there if you
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don't have some sort of those guardrails or barriers for
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people to stay within.
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Carol, when I was, West Virginia, shout out, West Virginia,
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You have this wonderful space in that, and I call
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it the learning hall is what I always referred to
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it as. And you section off the tables and you
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have people come in and it's very communal. When I
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was there last time, that's exactly what happened. People started
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talking and so forth. What are you hearing them say
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when they're in that space?
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Absolutely. I think this is an excellent question. And having
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the ability for, as Jill said, I'm the professional speaking
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as the teacher. I am the professional in my classroom.
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I'm the professional in my building as the instructional leader
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and that I can be trusted to make those data
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informed decisions on behalf of my students so that we
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can move the needle forward. I think that's a critical
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piece to education that can oftentimes be viewed as micromanaging
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or to use your terms there, Adam. within the guardrails.
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So it's a delicate balance, I believe.
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I think when we're not clear, and you guys, all
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three of you mentioned guardrails, sandbox, clarity. When we don't
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have clarity, we create frustration. And I want to point
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out that the operational definition of our vocabulary that we're
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using could cause problems as well. So like Kara was
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talking about, just giving them that clarity of what it
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is that they can do And now, so where's that
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balance between the art and the science of instruction? Then
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also you're operating within a system. So we have to
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have a kind of like a through line of like vocabulary,
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common language, common vocabulary for our students. So when I
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hear when teachers are saying, you know, that we ought
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to have autonomy, we got to define where that autonomy
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can be without disrupting the system. So that our children,
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when they're operating through first grade, second grade, or first period,
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second period, there is some continuity. And a lack of
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that continuity, we start creating the frustration in their students
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and then frustration with the teachers. And then we might
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start hearing, just tell me what you want me to
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do and I'll do it, which is so sad when
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we get to that point.
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You know, I think sometimes I think leaders like the
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idea of autonomy right up until the time when people
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start making choices that they don't support. And then they wish, oh,
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I shouldn't have ever given any autonomy. But I mean,
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how do you actually define where that should and shouldn't
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end and not as a reactionary piece to a staff
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member that you're now working with?
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Well, I think it starts with, well, I could go
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all the way back and say it starts with hiring, right?
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Because it's hiring the person with the mindset of, I
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can be trusted to meet the individual needs of the
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students in my classroom while working interdependently with people on
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my team, recognizing I am part of a bigger system
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in the building and the district, right? Like somebody that
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sees the alignment and, and, so then you hire the
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right people coming in. And then when you're in, it's
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spending time talking about what does the mission mean to us?
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What does it mean for us to achieve our mission?
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And when we know what, what it means, then how
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are we going to behave? What will we do? What
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won't we do? And, and then I think it gets
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into those PLC guiding questions. The, and, and the great
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thing about being in an administrative position is we get
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to attend those team meetings, but not run them. And
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I think there's a tummy in that, like, listen, they,
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they have the voice giving them the voice to what
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does it mean when the students, you know, are proficient
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on these standards or advanced and like, that's the tight.
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And how are we going to assess that's the tight,
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but then, You should have autonomy to use your unique
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gifts to bring that to life in your classroom.
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I like your use of the words get to. It is.
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It's an opportunity for us to get in there and
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do those things.
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That was really good.
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Be a thought partner.
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We get to be a thought partner.
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Kara, have you ever run into that at all? This
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whole concept of, boy, it's hard for me to give
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them that freedom or that, like, I've got to hammer down.
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Otherwise, something might happen that I'm not prepared for.
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Absolutely. And I think that's a challenge that educators don't
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necessarily like to find themselves in. They want to do
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what is best for their students. Nobody sets out to
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go into education and to do a bad job. As educators,
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we are nurturers and we want to take care. We
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are stewards of these children. whether they come to us
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at age three or whether they exit with us at
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age 21, depending upon their programs of study. So teachers
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join the profession because they want to do what's best
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by their kids.
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So true.
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And sometimes there is that delicate balance between autonomy and accountability.
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And to go back to what Jill was saying with
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the hiring, that's critical to make sure that we are
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putting the best people in those critical areas across their campuses.
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And that also goes back to the essential piece of having,
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what are we doing? What do we believe in as
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a system? That shared vision and mission in my position
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as assistant superintendent for curriculum and instruction, That's critical to us.
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What do we believe in and how can we help
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to build that belief within our instructional leaders and our teachers?
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This segment is sponsored by Grunmeier Leader Services. Since 2013,
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At a time.
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don't need vague jargon. you need practical strategies that work.
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I think when you, first of all, I got to
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give a shout out to the, just a little friendly reminder.
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We've heard it in various forms and so forth, but
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educators don't set out to do bad. They want to be,
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they want to be great every possible day, but they
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also are humans and we got to keep that in mind.
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And so shout out Kara for even just bringing that
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back up. And we think it's obvious, but it isn't.
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We got to remember what that looks like. And I
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was shifting to what Kara was saying as well is
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I was in an elementary school in Wyoming County, West Virginia.
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And I walked to that school and it was every
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spot of that hallway or the classroom that was in,
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you could tell there was unification of the teachers, whether
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it be a In and out of the classrooms, teachers
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were moving, the hallway decorations. I mean, it was like
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a winter wonderland. Now, I believe that building is no
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longer or used for something different. However, the people in
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that building, that unification, and I look at and I
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think of Wyoming County or many of the counties in
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all the counties, probably in West Virginia, they're operated as
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county schools, not just districts. So like if you're in Iowa,
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you're in a district and it's kind of small, you're tight-knit.
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or Texas, other places, but Wyoming, you have schools all around.
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So Kara, how do you kind of keep that balance
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when you're reaching out to all parts of the county?
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It is definitely a unique perspective, I would venture to say.
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I've never worked in a system that was based on
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districts within a county. So this is the only thing
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that I really know. But every school has a different,
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unique feeling or culture, and they create a school every
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single school year. And that's what we try to empower
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from our instructional leaders, setting the tone from the first
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day with their first meeting with them of how are
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you creating a new school community? Some of our schools
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are already consolidated within our county. And that is bringing
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a variety of schools and their beliefs, their systems into one.
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And we're going through that now. As you referenced, one
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of our schools is no longer. And they're merging two
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schools together to create a new elementary and middle school.
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But that's critical for them to realize every single school year,
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I get new students. I have new staff, some that
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are returning. But we get to create a place that
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is reflective of our community and our shared beliefs. And
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it varies from campus to campus.
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Yeah.
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But what's interesting to me, and it just kind of
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dawned on me as you're talking there, and Jim, you
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were kind of mentioning this too, are our guardrails just
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really our mission and our vision? I mean, this is
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really what we truly believe about the work we're doing.
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Isn't that our guardrails? And if we have those well-established
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and we understand those, as a staff, people are going
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to know where they're supposed to be anyway.
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And then, of course, you know, within that, you've got
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the policies and things like that. And that said, I
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think if we are reflective as a system, we're going
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to recognize when a policy is getting in the way
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of us doing something. And then do we need to
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revise something as long as it still reflects the law
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and all of that?
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Obviously, that's important.
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It's interesting as we think about the guardrails and parameters.
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As you three were talking, I was envisioning, as adults,
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we're just big kids. And when we think of what
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a classroom teacher is trying to create in their classroom,
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they're trying to create independent learners who understand parameters, right?
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Because that would be total burnout and not successful for
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a teacher if every student was completely dependent on that person.
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And we're the same way. As adults, we want the
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adults in our building or our school community to be independent,
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but also supportive of the greater good of what we're about.
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But that would cause burnout if we're person dependent, right?
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We don't want to be person dependent. We want to
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be system dependent.
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I like the concept of the system independent. And we're
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thinking about it. I hear phrases like guardrail, sandbox. I
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think of tights and looses and where it's negotiable, non-negotiable,
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and so forth. So let's wrap it all up here.
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What should a leader do differently tomorrow if they really
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want autonomy without the free-for-all chaos? Good question. What could
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leaders do differently or maybe emphasize?
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Well, one thing I think about is as an instructional leader,
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we have an opportunity to ask questions of our teachers
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and a question of, you know, how, in what ways
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am I getting in your way? Or what could I
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do differently that could support you better as a classroom
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teacher to meet the needs of your kids? I think
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just being vulnerable and asking that question opening the door
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and saying, you know, what do I need to do
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more of? What do I need to do less of?
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What do I need to do different to support you
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in doing your job to the best of your ability?
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Yeah, I had an instructional coach who was very willing
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to have tough. It wasn't tough for her. She loved
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these conversations, but it was kind of like we got
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in the arena battle numerous times. Sometimes I had my
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armor on. Sometimes I didn't. She never did. And it
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was really kind of helping me grow along the way.
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And she was like, very clear, Jim, you said everything
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has to be within standards mindset or we have to
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be like 100% students connected with adults, right? Yes, geared
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to that. Why do you keep telling everybody what they
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need to learn? I don't do that. Well, except for
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every meeting you do. And I thought, well, I got
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mad at that. And I did what every mature principal
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would do. I got up, stormed out of my own office,
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closed my own door. Stormed through the school, then finally
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came back and said, okay, what do we do? And
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it was really cool. I don't know how she actually
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did it all, but we ended up having teachers kind
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of join together with like interest on underneath the umbrella
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of standards mindset, which MTS, BBIS and the staff. I mean,
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it was just everything they got to pick. They had
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their groups together and all I did was provide resources
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and get out of the way. And it was so
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uncomfortable for me, but the magic was, it was amazing
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within that. Just get out of the, I had to
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give clarity. I had to give clarity for that first.
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And then once that clarity came. Isn't that part of
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it though, is to know when you got to get
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out of the way? I mean, that's a big part
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of leadership, right? Know when you don't need to be
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there in the way. I needed help.
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And how great that you had the trust.
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Right.
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From the culture you supported, that you nourished, that this
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person had the trust to be able to be honest
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with you and not be judged negatively for that.
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As leaders, it is critical that our administrators, our instructors,
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our students and our greater community has the trust. in
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us to make those decisions or to provide that support.
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And there is such wisdom also in knowing when to
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step away, knowing when, okay, I'm ready to release. They,
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they know the destination that we need to arrive at
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in terms of student achievement. And it's we are showing
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that belief in them instead of micromanaging, because that's not,
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that's not what we want to be. We, we don't,
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set out to be leaders who say you have to
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do X, Y, and Z and mark off all these
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to-dos off of your list. Sometimes it can feel that
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way when there's various initiatives or state mandates or new policies.
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But at the heart of it, it is making sure
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that our instructors know that we believe in them to
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do the job that they were hired to do.
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So true. So true. You know what?
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This has been an awesome season three, episode one. Kara, Jill,
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thanks for joining us here today. Jim, anything you want
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to say before we wrap up today?
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Well, a couple of things. One, first of all, again, Kara, Jill,
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thank you very much. I love having two different states
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kind of like because the lens is different. And I
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think in education, we support everybody. Kara, I think you
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have 55, 56 counties or county schools, school districts in
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West Virginia. Yes, there's 55 counties in West Virginia. Right.
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And Iowa, Jill, what is that number? 330 right now?
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We have 330 school districts or something like that? We
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have little old Iowa has 99 counties too, Kara. I mean,
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so it's, it's a dynamics is different, but here's the
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thing that's, that's real. And it's, everything we talked about
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here pertains to every classroom throughout the country. And I
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really appreciate coming in and having these conversations, stepping into
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the arena with, with the armor on. So thank you
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very much. I appreciate it.
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Alrighty, everybody. Thank you for joining us here on control
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shift lead, and we will talk with you again next time.
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Thanks for joining us on control shift lead.
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Until next time.
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Why do you keep telling everybody what they need to learn?
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I don't do that. Well, except for every meeting you do.
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And I thought, well, I got mad at that. And
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I did what every mature principal would do. I got up,
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stormed out of my own office.
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This is Control Shift Lead, Season 3. With Jim Wichman
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and Adam Bush on the Forward Ed Network. Control what
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you can.
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Shift your thinking. Lead with purpose.
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All right, season three, we're back. And instead of spending
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this season interviewing people about leadership, Jim and I want
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to spend more time actually talking about it.
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Real questions, real situations, and people at the table who
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are willing to wrestle with with all of us. And
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when we were talking about this, I mean, this is
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going to be just like Brene Brown says, we're going
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to jump into the arena and we're going to battle
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armor off.
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I love it. Well, today we have Dr. Jill Urich
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and Kara Haisley Mitchell. You're here for our first one.
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And we're going to start right away with the adults
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in our building. So we're going to kick it off.
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We're going to get going. Jill, I'm going to kick
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it to you. Get our conversation started tonight. Let's start
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with something that I think leaders hear a lot. And
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that is when teachers say they want autonomy, what do
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you think they're really asking for?
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Teachers, in my experience, want to be trusted for the
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expertise that they bring to the table. They are experts
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in things that I am not an expert in. And
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so I think honoring that and they want to be
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valued for that. They want to be valued for the
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gifts they bring to the table. And the autonomy comes
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with clear expectations and like they want to know what's
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my sandbox, right? And then who is in my sandbox?
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Who am I going to collaborate with so that we
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know what we're going to be tight on? And then
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within those tight parameters, have that autonomy to meet the
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needs of every student they serve.
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Yeah, we talk about that a lot. I think the
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term we use in my school district is guardrails. You know,
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what are your guardrails that you can work within? But
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I do, I think people do want that autonomy, but
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I also think at times the guardrails matter more sometimes
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than that freedom. Like without it, sometimes you're almost paralyzed,
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don't even know where to go from there if you
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don't have some sort of those guardrails or barriers for
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people to stay within.
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Carol, when I was, West Virginia, shout out, West Virginia,
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You have this wonderful space in that, and I call
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it the learning hall is what I always referred to
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it as. And you section off the tables and you
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have people come in and it's very communal. When I
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was there last time, that's exactly what happened. People started
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talking and so forth. What are you hearing them say
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when they're in that space?
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Absolutely. I think this is an excellent question. And having
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the ability for, as Jill said, I'm the professional speaking
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as the teacher. I am the professional in my classroom.
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I'm the professional in my building as the instructional leader
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and that I can be trusted to make those data
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informed decisions on behalf of my students so that we
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can move the needle forward. I think that's a critical
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piece to education that can oftentimes be viewed as micromanaging
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or to use your terms there, Adam. within the guardrails.
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So it's a delicate balance, I believe.
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I think when we're not clear, and you guys, all
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three of you mentioned guardrails, sandbox, clarity. When we don't
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have clarity, we create frustration. And I want to point
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out that the operational definition of our vocabulary that we're
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using could cause problems as well. So like Kara was
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talking about, just giving them that clarity of what it
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is that they can do And now, so where's that
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balance between the art and the science of instruction? Then
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also you're operating within a system. So we have to
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have a kind of like a through line of like vocabulary,
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common language, common vocabulary for our students. So when I
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hear when teachers are saying, you know, that we ought
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to have autonomy, we got to define where that autonomy
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can be without disrupting the system. So that our children,
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when they're operating through first grade, second grade, or first period,
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second period, there is some continuity. And a lack of
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that continuity, we start creating the frustration in their students
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and then frustration with the teachers. And then we might
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start hearing, just tell me what you want me to
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do and I'll do it, which is so sad when
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we get to that point.
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You know, I think sometimes I think leaders like the
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idea of autonomy right up until the time when people
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start making choices that they don't support. And then they wish, oh,
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I shouldn't have ever given any autonomy. But I mean,
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how do you actually define where that should and shouldn't
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end and not as a reactionary piece to a staff
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member that you're now working with?
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Well, I think it starts with, well, I could go
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all the way back and say it starts with hiring, right?
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Because it's hiring the person with the mindset of, I
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can be trusted to meet the individual needs of the
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students in my classroom while working interdependently with people on
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my team, recognizing I am part of a bigger system
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in the building and the district, right? Like somebody that
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sees the alignment and, and, so then you hire the
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right people coming in. And then when you're in, it's
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spending time talking about what does the mission mean to us?
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What does it mean for us to achieve our mission?
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And when we know what, what it means, then how
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are we going to behave? What will we do? What
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won't we do? And, and then I think it gets
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into those PLC guiding questions. The, and, and the great
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thing about being in an administrative position is we get
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to attend those team meetings, but not run them. And
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I think there's a tummy in that, like, listen, they,
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they have the voice giving them the voice to what
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does it mean when the students, you know, are proficient
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on these standards or advanced and like, that's the tight.
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And how are we going to assess that's the tight,
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but then, You should have autonomy to use your unique
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gifts to bring that to life in your classroom.
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I like your use of the words get to. It is.
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It's an opportunity for us to get in there and
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do those things.
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That was really good.
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Be a thought partner.
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We get to be a thought partner.
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Kara, have you ever run into that at all? This
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whole concept of, boy, it's hard for me to give
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them that freedom or that, like, I've got to hammer down.
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Otherwise, something might happen that I'm not prepared for.
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Absolutely. And I think that's a challenge that educators don't
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necessarily like to find themselves in. They want to do
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what is best for their students. Nobody sets out to
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go into education and to do a bad job. As educators,
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we are nurturers and we want to take care. We
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are stewards of these children. whether they come to us
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at age three or whether they exit with us at
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age 21, depending upon their programs of study. So teachers
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join the profession because they want to do what's best
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by their kids.
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So true.
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And sometimes there is that delicate balance between autonomy and accountability.
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And to go back to what Jill was saying with
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the hiring, that's critical to make sure that we are
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putting the best people in those critical areas across their campuses.
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And that also goes back to the essential piece of having,
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what are we doing? What do we believe in as
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a system? That shared vision and mission in my position
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as assistant superintendent for curriculum and instruction, That's critical to us.
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What do we believe in and how can we help
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to build that belief within our instructional leaders and our teachers?
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This segment is sponsored by Grunmeier Leader Services. Since 2013,
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I think when you, first of all, I got to
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give a shout out to the, just a little friendly reminder.
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We've heard it in various forms and so forth, but
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educators don't set out to do bad. They want to be,
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they want to be great every possible day, but they
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also are humans and we got to keep that in mind.
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And so shout out Kara for even just bringing that
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back up. And we think it's obvious, but it isn't.
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We got to remember what that looks like. And I
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was shifting to what Kara was saying as well is
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I was in an elementary school in Wyoming County, West Virginia.
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And I walked to that school and it was every
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spot of that hallway or the classroom that was in,
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you could tell there was unification of the teachers, whether
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it be a In and out of the classrooms, teachers
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were moving, the hallway decorations. I mean, it was like
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a winter wonderland. Now, I believe that building is no
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longer or used for something different. However, the people in
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that building, that unification, and I look at and I
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think of Wyoming County or many of the counties in
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all the counties, probably in West Virginia, they're operated as
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county schools, not just districts. So like if you're in Iowa,
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you're in a district and it's kind of small, you're tight-knit.
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or Texas, other places, but Wyoming, you have schools all around.
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So Kara, how do you kind of keep that balance
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when you're reaching out to all parts of the county?
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It is definitely a unique perspective, I would venture to say.
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I've never worked in a system that was based on
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districts within a county. So this is the only thing
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that I really know. But every school has a different,
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unique feeling or culture, and they create a school every
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single school year. And that's what we try to empower
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from our instructional leaders, setting the tone from the first
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day with their first meeting with them of how are
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you creating a new school community? Some of our schools
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are already consolidated within our county. And that is bringing
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a variety of schools and their beliefs, their systems into one.
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And we're going through that now. As you referenced, one
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of our schools is no longer. And they're merging two
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schools together to create a new elementary and middle school.
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But that's critical for them to realize every single school year,
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I get new students. I have new staff, some that
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are returning. But we get to create a place that
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is reflective of our community and our shared beliefs. And
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it varies from campus to campus.
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Yeah.
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But what's interesting to me, and it just kind of
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dawned on me as you're talking there, and Jim, you
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were kind of mentioning this too, are our guardrails just
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really our mission and our vision? I mean, this is
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really what we truly believe about the work we're doing.
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Isn't that our guardrails? And if we have those well-established
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and we understand those, as a staff, people are going
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to know where they're supposed to be anyway.
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And then, of course, you know, within that, you've got
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the policies and things like that. And that said, I
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think if we are reflective as a system, we're going
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to recognize when a policy is getting in the way
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of us doing something. And then do we need to
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revise something as long as it still reflects the law
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and all of that?
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Obviously, that's important.
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It's interesting as we think about the guardrails and parameters.
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As you three were talking, I was envisioning, as adults,
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we're just big kids. And when we think of what
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a classroom teacher is trying to create in their classroom,
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they're trying to create independent learners who understand parameters, right?
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Because that would be total burnout and not successful for
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a teacher if every student was completely dependent on that person.
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And we're the same way. As adults, we want the
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adults in our building or our school community to be independent,
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but also supportive of the greater good of what we're about.
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But that would cause burnout if we're person dependent, right?
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We don't want to be person dependent. We want to
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be system dependent.
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I like the concept of the system independent. And we're
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thinking about it. I hear phrases like guardrail, sandbox. I
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think of tights and looses and where it's negotiable, non-negotiable,
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and so forth. So let's wrap it all up here.
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What should a leader do differently tomorrow if they really
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want autonomy without the free-for-all chaos? Good question. What could
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leaders do differently or maybe emphasize?
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Well, one thing I think about is as an instructional leader,
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we have an opportunity to ask questions of our teachers
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and a question of, you know, how, in what ways
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am I getting in your way? Or what could I
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do differently that could support you better as a classroom
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teacher to meet the needs of your kids? I think
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just being vulnerable and asking that question opening the door
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and saying, you know, what do I need to do
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more of? What do I need to do less of?
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What do I need to do different to support you
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in doing your job to the best of your ability?
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Yeah, I had an instructional coach who was very willing
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to have tough. It wasn't tough for her. She loved
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these conversations, but it was kind of like we got
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in the arena battle numerous times. Sometimes I had my
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armor on. Sometimes I didn't. She never did. And it
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was really kind of helping me grow along the way.
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And she was like, very clear, Jim, you said everything
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has to be within standards mindset or we have to
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be like 100% students connected with adults, right? Yes, geared
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to that. Why do you keep telling everybody what they
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need to learn? I don't do that. Well, except for
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every meeting you do. And I thought, well, I got
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mad at that. And I did what every mature principal
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would do. I got up, stormed out of my own office,
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closed my own door. Stormed through the school, then finally
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came back and said, okay, what do we do? And
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it was really cool. I don't know how she actually
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did it all, but we ended up having teachers kind
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of join together with like interest on underneath the umbrella
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of standards mindset, which MTS, BBIS and the staff. I mean,
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it was just everything they got to pick. They had
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their groups together and all I did was provide resources
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and get out of the way. And it was so
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uncomfortable for me, but the magic was, it was amazing
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within that. Just get out of the, I had to
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give clarity. I had to give clarity for that first.
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And then once that clarity came. Isn't that part of
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it though, is to know when you got to get
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out of the way? I mean, that's a big part
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of leadership, right? Know when you don't need to be
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there in the way. I needed help.
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And how great that you had the trust.
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Right.
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From the culture you supported, that you nourished, that this
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person had the trust to be able to be honest
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with you and not be judged negatively for that.
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As leaders, it is critical that our administrators, our instructors,
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our students and our greater community has the trust. in
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us to make those decisions or to provide that support.
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And there is such wisdom also in knowing when to
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step away, knowing when, okay, I'm ready to release. They,
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they know the destination that we need to arrive at
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in terms of student achievement. And it's we are showing
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that belief in them instead of micromanaging, because that's not,
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that's not what we want to be. We, we don't,
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set out to be leaders who say you have to
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do X, Y, and Z and mark off all these
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to-dos off of your list. Sometimes it can feel that
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way when there's various initiatives or state mandates or new policies.
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But at the heart of it, it is making sure
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that our instructors know that we believe in them to
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do the job that they were hired to do.
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So true. So true. You know what?
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This has been an awesome season three, episode one. Kara, Jill,
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thanks for joining us here today. Jim, anything you want
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to say before we wrap up today?
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Well, a couple of things. One, first of all, again, Kara, Jill,
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thank you very much. I love having two different states
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kind of like because the lens is different. And I
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think in education, we support everybody. Kara, I think you
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have 55, 56 counties or county schools, school districts in
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West Virginia. Yes, there's 55 counties in West Virginia. Right.
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And Iowa, Jill, what is that number? 330 right now?
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We have 330 school districts or something like that? We
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have little old Iowa has 99 counties too, Kara. I mean,
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so it's, it's a dynamics is different, but here's the
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thing that's, that's real. And it's, everything we talked about
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here pertains to every classroom throughout the country. And I
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really appreciate coming in and having these conversations, stepping into
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the arena with, with the armor on. So thank you
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very much. I appreciate it.
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Alrighty, everybody. Thank you for joining us here on control
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shift lead, and we will talk with you again next time.
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Thanks for joining us on control shift lead.
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Until next time.
