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Welcome to Good Samaritan Education's podcast, Communio Calling.
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My name is Gabrielle Sinclair and I'll be your host.
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Today's conversation I hope you'll find as interesting as I did because I'm really trying to nut out what is a Catholic worldview.
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Now many of our schools will talk about their Catholic identity, how they shape that, what it looks like, how they manifest that in their day-to-day life of the community.
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But when we invite people into our ministries and they come with very diverse backgrounds and views, and we want that rich conversation, but we want it to also be grounded and very particularly grounded in our Catholic worldview because after all, our ministry is that of a Catholic one, and we're very proud of that.
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So, how do we bring people on board that might not understand that delicate nuance of a Catholic worldview?
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So, to help me in my conversation today is Jenny Hicks and Martin Tulin.
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So Jenny Hickson has been part of the Catholic world of formation for over 20 years and has held many leadership positions across many Catholic ministries and is currently the Director of Mission and Formation for Dominican Education Australia, where she's responsible for creating and facilitating Catholic formation in trustees, ministry boards, and mission leaders.
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Martin Chulan is our other guest, and he has also worked across many sectors in the Catholic world of ministry and mission, having worked in health, education, social services, diocese, parishes, and overseas mission.
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He was the National Director for Catholic Mission and is currently the Executive Director of the Association of Ministerial Public Juridic Persons, which is the peak body for Catholic organizations like Good Samaritan Education, which are lay-led Catholic ministries.
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So we're gonna dig deep into this conversation.
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I hope it's enlightening for you, but it's a really rigorous and actually beautiful conversation about what it means to look at the world through a Catholic lens.
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So let's jump into the conversation and I'll let them help us shape that conversation.
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Well, today on Camino Calling, we have Jimmy Hickson and Martin Chulen.
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And our podcast, as many of you know, is very much about being grounded in story and really investigating that incarnational reality of who we are in our connection and how we express the diversity of who we are.
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So we always start with story.
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So I don't know who would like to go first, but would you mind sharing a bit of your own story from the influences and your family growing up and what's moulded you and shaped you into the life and work that you find yourself in today?
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So I'm Jennifer Francis Hickson, and I love my middle name, Francis.
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I've just sort of been thinking about it a lot lately, that middle name.
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So that's a by way of introduction to me.
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Growing up, I was a cradle Catholic and part of a large family, the youngest in a large family.
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So lots of good fun and chaos, which again has, I think, helped me launch into life.
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I don't feel anyone is ever a stranger and everyone's of the possibility of a connection and a relationship.
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I've been working in the area of faith formation pretty much since I left university, studying English literature initially and performance studies at Sydney University, and then going into St.
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Vincent de Paul Society as an employee there, working as a Darsen Youth Coordinator.
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And then I went on to study theology at the Catholic Institute of Sydney.
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I'm a mum of three daughters, married, got three daughters, two in primary school and one in high school.
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So coming back to Frances, which Frances is your middle name for?
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Well, I asked Mum about this.
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I've been named after a few people.
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I think her obstetrician's name was Frances.
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But I like that.
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You know, we may have come in that door into my love of that name, but it's grown into something else.
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Obviously, Pope Francis and I love animals.
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I'll never see a dog without patting it.
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Generally, I'll I'll stop and ask the owner, can I pat your dog?
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And bringing home straight animals to mum and dad and as a child, which is just what they needed with six kids and running various ministries in the local parish.
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I think I remember once saying to them, Well, God's not going to be pleased if you don't let us keep this one.
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So anyway, I guess I've had a strong sense of receiving the gift of faith in my life, and that that's come down to me from many generations.
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Mum tells stories of my great-great-grandfather or my great-grandfather, I think he was in Queensland as the bank manager every day in prayer in mourning before his day's work.
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And I like to think that those prayers of his from long ago have reached into my life and me as a the following generations of those who've received faith and I receive this gift.
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And so it's been very formative in my life to try and care for this gift, tussle with it, struggle with it, but care for it.
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And so I have a profound sense of that gift in my life.
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So I'm working now in the area of formation with Dominican Education Australia, formation with their boards and various levels of the organization, the trustees.
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And I've come to this work from a number of other places.
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I've been with, as I mentioned, St.
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Vincent of Paul Society working in the area of social services.
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And then I was in healthcare at the MARTA Hospital and with St.
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Vincent's Health Australia.
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I was involved also with the Jesuits in youth and young adult ministry and now here in education.
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So I've been kicking around really what is it to respond to the divine in action?
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And how do we form and equip people on that journey in our places of action?
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Ministry, schools, hospitals, social outreach.
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What is that dynamic and how does it change with time in response to the society we live in?
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And great questions that we will dig into further shortly.
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Thanks, Jenny.
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Martin, would you like to share us a little bit of your journey?
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Yes, I grew up basically with a single mother in the 60s, which was a pretty difficult task for her.
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And she was a great person of faith.
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And I think that basically the witness of her, both in how she looked after us at a time when no one else we knew was a single mother, say in the whole school.
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And it was very difficult for her.
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And she was obviously we weren't well off at all.
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She just gave us tremendous witness at the personal level in looking after us and also in our faith.
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And therefore, you know, most of us in the family are still involved very much with faith and even in leadership roles in different places.
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So that was a great start.
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Uh I went through school and uh I went to some of the additional things that the Maris brothers put on for young people, and then became a teacher in a Catholic school, having trained actually in the state system, which was good.
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But then I felt that schools were a bit of a village and I wanted something a bit bigger.
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So I went into Catholic Mission.
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Uh then I worked in a diocese.
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I worked for the Wesley Mission in marketing and fundraising.
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Then I ran a big purchasing group in the church, which also ran Cat News.
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Then I was national director of Catholic Mission and then worked with an Aboriginal organization as a consultant with a whole lot of different church entities, both Catholic and other churches, and also as a consultant for parishes.
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Then I went into health as the director of mission, a bit like Jenny.
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So we've both been round the traps.
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And usually not many people really cross all those different barriers.
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So it's been a great privilege.
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It's also just helpful because it helps you to see how across the whole breadth of sort of the Catholic and even beyond the Catholic Church, there's so much in common in people's journey towards faith and membership of a faith community.
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So my role with uh AMPJP, which is the Association of Ministerial Public Juridic Persons, but basically they're just big Catholic organisations that are really these days mostly led by lay people.
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The role there in particular is actually the formation of trustees, but it also extends into other areas as well.
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Yeah, we're also trying to make sure that as these huge organizations, some of them employing, you know, tens of thousands of people, operate, that we still stick to our mission and that we still really have a good understanding of what it is to be a Christian organization and a Catholic organisation in today as well.
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Yeah, it's really the crux of our conversation as we move into it today.
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But Martin, before I let you off the hook, do you want to tell us a bit about your family?
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Yes.
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I just think I I was gonna start with that and then I forgot to put it in the end.
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Yeah, so basically I have three daughters of my own who are all grown up and have children now, and I've inherited four stepchildren as well, and one of those has uh couple of kids.
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And there's uh another niece who's part of the family, so that's all all good fun and makes us a little bit busy in that sense as well.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, well, thank you very much for sharing part of your story, just so our listeners have a bit of a background to the conversation, because as I'm listening to you, I'm aware that the three of us are very much real Catholics and have in some ways been in the Catholic bubble for a long time, but also even just in hearing your stories, making sure that we're aware of where the bubble bursts and our engagement in the broader Christian community and of course the global community and across the places that we find ourselves in are always looking different.
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So the conversation that I really wanted to engage with you today is about the foundations of formation and introductory steps or the intentionality about that mission and staying focused to who we are.
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You know, across many of our Catholic organizations and ministries, there are lots of great people doing great work and with varying degrees of understanding what it is to be Catholic.
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So the media sometimes has a very low bar of what it means to be Catholic, and there's obviously a reckoning there for all of us.
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But when you guys hear the phrase a Catholic way of seeing the world or a Catholic worldview, what does it mean to you and what do you draw on to help people understand what that looks like?
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I think for people on the outside in particular, it's really important to be simple in the message at first because we have such an experience of being Catholic and we can explain the same thing in a hundred different ways.
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So for me, it's really talking about as we should be, what we aspire to be is people who love God and who love our neighbour.
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Loving God's important because it gives you meaningful life, it gives you the hope of eternal life, it gives you God as a companion when things aren't the best and support when you need it, also someone to celebrate with at times, and also an understanding of being in a relationship.
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God gives you constancy and um gives you a constant support in in your life, which I think is really a huge benefit for people.
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And that constancy and support is also lived out in a Christian community, so you've really got to be part of the community, and that community supports you as well, and is to some extent also God in your life through those other people.
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So I think that's really, really important.
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The other side is loving your neighbour.
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I think it's something which we often have to work on.
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The fact is really that it's an equally important part of our lives.
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And I remember in one of my roles with Catholic mission, basically we used to have a meeting with Pope Francis each year.
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The very first meeting, he had his prepared speech.
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He'd only just been Pope for about a month, had his prepared speech, which is sort of put together by the Pope Benedict crew, who also had you know good talks and that, but he was different.
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So he read that for about a minute, then he put it down and he said, I'd like you to do two things.
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He said, first of all, I'd like you to go home and thank all the people who've been giving the Catholic mission their money over many years, because it's made a huge difference to people in so many countries.
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It's really been wonderful.
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And he said, the second thing I'd like you to do is that I'd also like you to ask every one of them to reach out personally to people in need.
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Reach out personally, not just to give money, but also to reach out personally so they really have a connection with people who are poor, people who are in need.
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And they'll find that's both rewarding, and of course, that will change the lives of so many people as well.
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So they're the sort of things that we aspire to.
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But it's also important to know that that community is going to be a really supportive means of bringing people into a relationship with God and also into the opportunities to care for people in there.
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Thanks, Matton.
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I remember when I was studying at CIS Catholic Institute, I remember this moment when a lecturer said to be Catholic is it's not to be either all, it's to be this and.
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And it really like that line, I still remember it in the lecture room.
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To be deeply Catholic is to not be either all, black or white, but this and.
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And so I've chewed over that for a good 20 years.
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And so it's this sense of death and resurrection, justice and mercy, depth and simplicity.
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And this also means that my understanding of Catholicism is both solid and shifting.
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You know, at times I have great conviction and mystery.
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At times I'm filled with faith and have doubt.
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It's a very sort of lofty, abstract answer to your question.
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So, how has it manifested in ministry for me, that idea?
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So when I was in the hospital and I was trying to embody and put words around this hospital that had stepped out into the world in faith, these sisters of mercy initially who founded the Martyr Hospital.
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And I remember one story would tell the new staff, I'd always do the orientation.
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You might remember this too, Martin.
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You'd have the orientation for new staff, and then we'd run it, I don't know, every quarter.
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And it was wonderful because there'd be people who'd come to the organization who were CEO, the cleaner, the nursing staff, the cook.
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And I was like a pig in mud.
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I was like, okay, how am I going to convey some of this?
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And I'd tell story.
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Story always with the intention of meeting their story.
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And I'd tell the story of how the sisters during the depression, when everyone else was closing in and thinking these are difficult times, went out and learned how to be midwives and created an obstetrics department that is now one of the best in Sydney.
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So conveying something of the story, it opens up the person to wonder, to all.
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And so for me, that is deeply Catholic.
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It's something of depth, it's something of the divine.
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And Martin spoke about that.
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There's something very simple about it.
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And how I came to be.
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I mean, yes, I received the gift of faith as a child, whatever, but my bubble burst lots of times.
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I loved that phrase you use, Gab.
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The bubble burst, it had to burst because I don't want a God that's so limited by my barriers, right?
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I need to be shaken.
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So silence became really important.
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So when I think about Catholicism, I think about periods of great silence and Eucharist.
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Maybe we could get into that later.
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I love those paradoxes.
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And I think that very much highlights for me my own experience of that faith and doubt sit on the same plane.
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They're not opposite, they exist together.
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And I think my experience of a Catholic worldview is being comfortable with that or finding space in that, that it you don't have to, as you say, have a black and white or a all-knowing.
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The more I know, the more I don't know.
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I think that whole idea of accepting mystery, we don't know.
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But that's not a end point.
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That's actually the opening to the wonder.
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That's the wow, that's the invitation rather than the solution.
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And I think that's one of my understandings of the Catholic worldview is it's highly invitational and it's incarnational.
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So it's as Martin was saying, Martin was really talking about that relational aspect, the personal relationship, the communal relationship that we have.
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And I think, as you've said, Jen, it's neither either or, it's both and.
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I mean, all of those things.
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Some people have a very private and personal faith, which is great.
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But even so, they are part of something much larger.
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And I think the Catholic worldview is always inviting them back into the community of that journey together.
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Just one thing.
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We're recording this just after the in Lent after the Transfiguration was the gospel on the last Sunday.
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And I just wanted to add the other thing that I was pondering in that passage where God says to Jesus, You are my son, you are my beloved, and listen to him.
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There's something very particular about that.
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So God, in amongst all this mystery that I've named, which is right and true, there's a truth to that.
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But alongside that sits particularity.
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This is Jesus, and he is my son.
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Listen to him.
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That's very particular.
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You know, that's a very definite way.
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So I just wanted to add that too.
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I've been playing with this idea of the particularity of our Catholic faith in amongst a very pluralistic context.
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Yeah, because we'll get into that later about all the different expressions.
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But Martin, did you want to add something?
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Catholic faith is perhaps a little bit different from some of the other Christian churches in that invitational attitude that you've just talked about.
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And particularly the greatest documents of the church are aimed at people of goodwill.
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And in our ministries, one of the key things is that we invite all people of goodwill to participate with us in ministries, particularly these large ministries that we're a part of.
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And then also the attitude to people of other faiths that I think that the Catholic Church really encourages the fact that we have a close relationship with them because the fact that we have faith in many ways sets us apart from other people in the world, but not for that reason, but for the reason that we respect their faith, we love their faith, we want to hear about their faith, we want to hear about their experience of their faith, and we want to be able to share ours as well.
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So that important dialogue, listening to the truth, we can talk about what we do and why we do it, and we can do that openly.
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We don't have to be afraid to do that, and at the same time, we shouldn't be afraid to hear about the faith experience of other people as well.
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And in terms of our ministries, again, to invite them as people of good will and with a perhaps a little bit of a bonus of being people of faith to also participate in our ministries in a full way, along with, you know, involved Catholic people.
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I think Martin, I can't recall the exact quote at the minute, but I'm recalling a quote about, you know, each different faith has something to teach us.
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It's different expression, just as we'll talk about different expressions of the Catholic faith, every expression of faith is a window into God in a different particular way.
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So I think that polarity of our society is something not to be afraid of, but uh to be in relationship with as well, which is why I think we have so many wonderful opportunities to engage in dialogue.
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When I did a Google search in preparation for this, just to see what's out there when we talk about Catholic worldview, uh, principal wrote a speech back in 2024 about what it is to have a Catholic worldview.
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So this is just a thought snip.
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So to be authentically Catholic is to love.
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It is a state of being that, like you, is deeply passionate about the human condition, deeply passionate about who we are and what we are capable of.
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It considers life as a gift, a gift that must be responded to with gratitude, a gratitude that manifests itself in generosity, a generosity that eats life.
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So we've kind of been talking about that generosity, that bigger picture of things.
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How might this way of seeing people and life shape the way that we help people navigate those that work in our Catholic landscape, whether they are Catholic or not, whether they're cradle Catholic, you know, maybe shelved it after primary school and uh wanting to work in this space, or those that are coming to our ministries that have not had that lens put before them before.
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So, what does that look like for people, do you think?
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How can we shape that space?
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:14.960
One of the things we talked about a lot when I worked in the hospital was the values of the hospital.
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:21.440
And that was in a hospital where, as far as I was aware, there were about six practicing Catholics out of 630 staff.
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:22.720
But we talked a lot about values.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:27.279
In fact, they used to laugh, you know, oh, we're on about the values again, you know, at the sort of management meetings.
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:31.519
But we really did concentrate on living out those values in a way.
00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:47.359
And so people who'd come into, it was a public hospital, so most of the staff had come in from other hospitals in public health over time, and they really were impacted by the fact we spent all this time talking about the values, Christian values, but also societal values.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:56.240
And of course, I suppose the the number, two biggest ones there were compassion, which if you're in a hospital hospital and you're not into compassion, you're probably in the wrong job.
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.799
And secondly, hospitality, which was the sort of particular value of St.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:06.799
John of God, who was known for his hospitality and fed everyone and did all these things for people.
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:17.279
So the concentration on values was something which they picked up, and we ran surveys of the staff, and we asked the managers who didn't have a Christian background or necessarily at all.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:23.359
They said, Do you feel comfortable with those values and do you feel that you can actually help imbue them with your teams?
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:25.839
You know, 90% of us said yes.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:38.880
And the 10% were the people who got there and feeling a bit nervous about moving into a Catholic hospital and they hadn't quite had enough experience, or they said, I don't feel quite confident yet, but I'm really happy to be on that journey.
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:41.599
I think that's a positive starting point.
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:47.039
Now, at the same time, at that same hospital before my time, there was a previous director admission.
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:49.200
But when I got there, there was an eight month gap.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:50.720
And so we didn't have a crossover.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:54.160
I did actually run into her and had a meeting with her, but not till after this.
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:59.759
Anyway, after I was there for a few months, the phalanx of nurse unit managers saw that.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.039
You know, sisters we call them in the old days, the in charge of each board.
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.039
I saw them come towards me in the corridor and I was slightly afraid.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.279
They came up to me and they said, Martin, I said, What's happened to our retreat?
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:13.279
And I said, Oh, what retreat?
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:21.920
They said, Oh, the previous lady, she took us on a retreat, and we all went down to Jambaroo Abbey every year and had a weekend retreat there.
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:23.680
So where's the one for this year?
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.279
And I'd said, Oh look, I didn't even know that we ever did it.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.960
It was just one of those things that there was never a conversation until now about all that.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:36.480
What had happened was that she had done this and she organized it in her own time, the previous person and everything else.
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:37.599
And these people loved it.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:39.920
They came to the place, it was a new experience for them.
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:54.960
But the generosity of her time in organizing it, making it happen, and making it such a positive experience was a great witness that also helped people go on a step that gave them exposure and an opportunity for the faith side of life, which otherwise they may never have had.
00:22:55.119 --> 00:23:03.200
The key thing is that in our ministries, we should be giving people both the opportunity to grow in faith and the opportunity to grow in outreach to people in me.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:04.720
Great, thanks.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:12.400
One of the things I was just reflecting on then is obviously those different entry points that we provide for people to engage in do.
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:18.160
Because we'll have those people that have very little lens to operate from in Catholic worldview sense.
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.160
And then you've got the, you know, some of the diehard Catholics that want to go deeper and want more as well.
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.559
So we've got to administer to all of those and be able to form all of those contexts.
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:32.319
So that differentiated learning is a challenge to how we navigate that those spaces because sometimes they're in the same room.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:34.240
Jenny, did you want to add?
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:41.200
Well, funnily enough, the point I was going to raise was both the point that you just made, Gavin, you were making towards the end, Martin.
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:48.319
I was thinking about the importance of formation for people in key roles in these ministries.
00:23:48.559 --> 00:24:00.079
Martin gave the example of, say, six people who might be Catholic in a Catholic ministry and therefore various other experiences coming into that ministry and embarking on the work of that ministry.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:13.680
So it's really important that there are some people in leadership who do have solid formation and understanding of the vision for that ministry, its purpose, and what it is entrusted to do.
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:25.839
And the way I pose it to boards that I'm working with of Catholic ministries is, you know, when is something mission drift and when is it agility and responding to the signs of the times?
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:29.440
Now, that question alone is searing, right?
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:35.039
And it's a sense of, well, what lens do I use to even answer that question?
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:37.119
Do I use social sciences?
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:47.359
Do I use the tradition of the Catholic Church to discern when we are drifting from mission and when we are being agile to read the signs of the times?
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:57.039
Even this idea of rigidity to read the signs of the times coming from Newman, a great thinker in the church, who would sort of say to change often is faithfulness.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:00.480
I paraphrase these words, but that's the sentiment is a giant.
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:01.680
A little old me.
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:03.359
I'm having a crack at his thinking.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.839
That's what we're always trying to do in formation, right?
00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:10.880
We're trying to not puree too much and spoon feed too much the riches of the church.
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:20.480
But there is some need to do that, to look at the tradition, and that's deeply Catholic, that has a wealth of beauty in its thinking.
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:21.839
We stand on that.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:41.759
That's part of who we are, that tradition element of our Catholicism, to know that and to be able to translate it for those in governance who may have no connection or formation in it whatsoever, so that they can look at the fork in the road and say, we're drifting or we're responding appropriately with change.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:26:02.400
So that would be important for me in terms of approaching formation for people in our ministries and just also to name, we haven't named it explicitly, but just the huge shift that these organizations have gone through to be at one time the ministry was embarked on by people religious or clergy in their origins.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:10.240
And so therefore, I remember asking one of the sisters who was involved in their congregation in founding one of the ministries that I'm now connected with.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.720
And she sort of said it was just by osmosis.
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:15.440
People figured out what we were by osmosis.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:16.960
We were around them every day.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:21.359
Now, when that has changed, it has changed, we're already well into that change.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:31.039
But that continued remembering is important to say that was part of what established this ministry.
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:49.839
And we have to be attentive to work out how we are mitigating or ensuring that that modeling of faith and how we act in response to faith is being lived out in our ministries, in a hospital now or in a school now.
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:58.240
And it's really important, Jenny, because I think whether religious were habited or not, everyone knew who they were in a ministry context when they're in that space.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:08.880
And the transition to our lay-led ministries doesn't have the same nuance and it has to be more explicit about that leadership.
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:17.440
It doesn't just happen by osmosis because they're the religious that are present, but also have years and years and years of toleration behind their spiritual practice in their community.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:25.759
That's part of their lived life, to have a lay-led organization that's led by spirit-filled people, but the osmosis isn't as natural.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:30.960
And so we have to be more explicit in that space to name and to be authentic to God.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:34.799
But I love that question you pose, Jenny, that that fork in the road.
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:44.720
Because sometimes if we look back at our histories of our ministries, the thing that might look like mission drift then became a major part of their characterism and their ministry because they took a leap of faith.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:46.160
So how do we hold that?
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:50.400
And it's people of faith that can do that to understand what that looks like.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:52.880
So that's really hard to wrestle with.
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:54.720
Are we taking a leap of faith?
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:56.720
Or as you said, is it mission drift?
00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:57.759
Because we can.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:00.319
Yeah.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:00.960
Yeah.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:08.160
And, you know, when you have faith and you're attentive to that, that discernment of spirits, our tradition would name it as.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:15.279
Now, someone in a boardroom might not feel comfortable with that terminology because that's very particular to our tradition.
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:16.640
I think it's really interesting.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:20.000
I think these are some of the key questions of today for ministries.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:29.839
I mean, one thing is do we actually look for and look to support and look to grow people of faith in our ministries or outside of our ministries that might go into our ministries?
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:38.160
And in some cases, I'm not even sure that people of faith would have any advantage in going to the job if they had all the same skills and qualities as someone else.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:40.240
I think in some jobs they'd be the first person picked.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:51.440
And in other cases, in other places, they would perhaps not be picked at all because the people who are in the ministry may not feel comfortable with someone of faith being there.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:53.680
Perhaps they're seeing their own deficit.
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:55.359
So I think we have to be a bit careful of that.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:07.920
I think overall we have to be looking at developing young people of faith as leaders, and we have to massively increase the amount of funds and the amount of resource we put into formation.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:17.920
It's often said that the number of years that religious are in formation is reflected for lay people in the number of days they're in formation.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:28.880
So basically, if you look at one of the orders, the amount of effort and time and money that they put into the formation of their members was a significant part of their ministry.
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.119
But it's not nearly as much for the Catholic ministries that we have.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:53.359
And we won't be able to maintain the Catholicity unless we massively increase the amount of formation, because you just need to be able to develop that, and then you can have as, as you both said, sort of an osmosis effect where you're immersed in the Catholic faith and you have a better ability to be able to understand whether you're on mission or not.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:30:05.359
Or if someone challenges you in that mission, because it isn't always easy at all, then you've got a more ability to sort of say, Well, we're going to go in this direction for this reason, and this is why, and this is why I believe we're on mission.
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.279
I think there's some things we need to do.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:12.880
And just to give an example of the differentiation, the amount of formation understood.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:20.240
I was speaking to a principal of a Christian school, you know, one of these new Brussels in Sydney, Western Suburbs Christian schools that come up.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.759
So at first the school started as a all Christian school.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:25.279
So there were 300 kids.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:31.039
But basically, very hard to maintain a school of that size, and they decided they would go to what they call open enrolment.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:32.720
That meant that anyone could come.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:40.079
So they still had their core 300 Christian kids, but they expected another 300 and basically didn't expect any of them very much to be Christians at all.
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.480
So he said to me, Yes, this is a really big change for us.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:47.359
And I was doing surveys in schools, and they were interested in surveying the change to see what happened.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:55.759
He said, So for those extra 300, we've hired three additional youth ministers so that we can help in the formation of those kids.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:03.359
And we hope that's enough to be able to actually, you know, make a difference to their lives and to induct them and form them as members of this Christian community.
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:10.400
Now, I don't know any Catholic school, and there might be the odd one that has three youth ministers, but none of them would have in a 600 kids.
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:12.880
Well, I'm sorry, actually at least another one.
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:15.680
So at least four of them in a 600 kid school.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:23.039
But that was the understanding of the amount of resourcing that you needed to actually be able to take the people on the journey of faith.
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:28.480
And it comes from an understanding that they've had in developing parishes and churches in the same means.
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:33.680
So a key thing for us is that we really have to expand the resourcing of formation.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:36.319
We have to look for the people and help them to grow.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:47.359
And also, even beyond that, we have to be part of a whole of church approach to formation because our formation in our parishes is so limited.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:32:00.240
So people in a Christian church, the expectation as they go into ministry in a Christian ministry, whether it's a school or could be a hospital or aged care, is that basically most of that formation will be delivered at a parish or church level.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:05.839
And they've got more than half of people in Christian churches in Australia in a small group meeting weekly.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.079
And often there's other things as well for them.
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:10.319
So they'll often have two church services a week.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:16.640
So the level of formation that we're offering and we have expectations of is very, very low.
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:30.880
And when we compare it to the orders who are sitting there basically being formed every day through coming together in prayer and discussions, and also just round the lunch table or the dinner table, the conversations, which you know were part of my upbringing too with the aunties.
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:32.400
That's the sort of thing we need.
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:38.160
If we really want to maintain the Catholicity, that's the level of formation that I believe we'll need.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.519
I think you hit also on a really important aspect.
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:47.119
Because while we absolutely need to increase the resourcing, we have to be smarter about it too.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:49.680
There is limited funds to do that.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:53.119
And there's no exponential increase coming out of nowhere.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:55.200
No one's found the wonderful money tree.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:00.559
And so across our Catholic organizations, we have to be working at how to do that smarter too.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:01.599
Yes, definitely.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:03.920
And sharing resources and doing whatever.
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:06.240
But also, no, just find the money.
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:07.680
Yeah, definitely find that.
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:09.200
I wasn't saying don't.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.559
We absolutely need it.
00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:12.240
And it's never easy.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:15.839
And I have been a fundraiser in my past, so I don't mind asking people for money.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:19.440
But it is possible to find the money if you really believe it's important.
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:21.839
It's not simple, but it is possible.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.440
The reason I don't believe we found the money is that we haven't believed we needed it.
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.000
This is not my quote, but I remember hearing it.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:29.680
I wish I could name who it was.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.200
But you know, that idea that show me your budget and I'll tell you your mission.
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:34.400
Martin, do you know who said that?
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:35.839
Maybe it was just a Liz Dodds.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.000
I think maybe I heard that around the traps.
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:40.880
Certainly, definitely sounds like that.
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:45.759
Yes, well, certainly there was a lot of no money, no mission talk in Catholic at the time.
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:46.960
Yeah, that's right.
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:48.400
Well, that's the rebuttal, isn't it?
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:52.160
No money, no mission, but actually show me your budget and I'll tell you your mission.
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:52.640
Yeah.
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:55.599
And one of the key things in that is telling these success stories.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:03.200
And there are success stories out there, and we need to gather those because most of the movement of people towards faith, it's all about inspiration.
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:04.400
Who inspires them?
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:05.680
Who is the witness to them?
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.519
Who makes them feel that they're part of a community that's really important to them?
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:20.719
I think coming back to the inspiration and the aspect of Catholic worldview that we touched on a little bit earlier, it was the multiple ways of expressing and living out that Catholicism, that way of following the gospel.
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:33.039
In your concrete spaces at this time, what are the kind of experiences and practices or listening that help staff live this sacramentality, this incarnational worldview together?
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:35.840
What are the touchstones that help in a charism?
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:39.440
Martin, you're seeing lots of different charisms in your workspace at the moment.
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:48.320
Where are the touchstones that help people connect across these multiple ways of expressing and living out this way of being together?
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:53.840
From my context, the current one I'm in is education, although I am moving in a few other spheres.
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:55.840
Liturgy is really important.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:01.039
Those liturgical celebrations of celebrating the founders' feast day.
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:02.480
That's always a big moment.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:06.559
And it creates culture, and the kids really get on board with it.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:13.440
And that's something beautiful that comes from the tradition when they gather and celebrate Eucharist, break bread, something happens.
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:27.440
And I was at a school celebrating one of the founders' days late last year, and I was almost in tears at the beauty of the expression across the young students to the older students to some of the sisters who were there from the founding congregation.
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:30.639
And I thought, this is good and we do this well.
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:38.559
And young women were doing liturgical dances, and I thought to myself, they are probably never going to get that chance to do that again in their life.
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:51.760
And they'll look back on those moments, even if they're not connected to church in any way, they'll look back and they'll know that they've touched something of beauty, something of communion, something of the communal aspect of worship.
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:58.000
And that will be, I suspect, if they're open to it, very profound in their life, that they'll look back on.
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:05.119
So I think we're doing that well in particular in education, liturgical celebrations and bringing that to life.
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.719
And they're masterful at creating liturgies of welcome.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:11.760
I totally agree with the whole importance of liturgy.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:14.239
And also these days, of course, everyone's watching the voice.
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:26.079
And it's an opportunity for kids to get up there and you know perform in a really positive way and just liturgical dance, even but just to have this wonderful experience of music and movement, and that's absolutely crucial.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:32.639
I go to perhaps the best children's mass in Australia at North Sydney on a Sunday morning and pack with kids.
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:33.039
Why?
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:35.440
Because they all have the movements, everything else, all those things.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:43.679
I missed out on that, not being a high school teacher, not primary, but they're going all over the place and the arms are flailing and everything else, and got 10 kids up the front going to house.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:45.280
And it's just great fun.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:50.079
And to get out of church on Sunday, this little kid says, So when do we get to go to church again?
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:51.679
So it's a really positive experience.
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:54.960
But with the older kids too, I've just seen such liturgies and differences.
00:36:55.280 --> 00:37:02.719
So the Easter liturgy is done on the oval or at Portsfield at the side of the school, and they're just magnificent and they're very, very moving.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:08.480
Year 12 retreats are basically understood to be the spiritual highlight of so many kids' lives.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.960
Of course, they're done with great feeling, movement.
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:13.760
They can feel their own spirit be moved and those sorts of things.
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:24.159
So the other thing is the charism and the story of the founder and founders going through perhaps the ones who came to Australia, they're really important too in being inspirational for people.
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:37.760
So even at a hospital where they've never come across that in their life, they're inspired by the nuns who came out to Australia, some of them at 17 years of age, to care for people with terrible diseases, you know, on the gold fields or in the bush or whatever.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:39.920
All those elements are really positive.
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:42.239
We have lots of great things in place.
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:49.599
I also love never seen someone in a hospital who didn't like Shrove Tuesday, and they they get their pancakes and how many do they get, and they can they come back for seconds?
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.079
To use the great things about it, also with an explanation.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:57.360
So everyone got in their email that day an explanation of what Shrove Tuesday was about.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:01.840
There's lots of great stuff that we have, all the saints, everything like that.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.000
And it's uh up to us to keep.
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:14.639
I think they're doing lots of good things there to keep growing that and also then to keep giving people the opportunity for them at an invitational and voluntary level to take a next step.
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:30.079
Yeah, so what I'm hearing, and it certainly reflects on my experiences as well, is that the intentionality of our rituals, whether they be formal liturgies or just helping people enter with their own story into the story of faith.
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:39.440
Whatever that door looks like for them, whatever that touchstone is, that their story we often talk, but you know, we know out they don't come as empty shelves, they come with their own story.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:47.280
And so finding the touchstones that helps them enter into the story, and that is invitational for them to participate, because that's the idea, right?
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:49.440
We want them to actually engage and participate.
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:51.760
It's not to be a spectator in the space.
00:38:51.920 --> 00:39:05.360
When we talk about those great liturgies in education, when we have as many people as possible have a role and do something, that's that intentionality and finding it in all of the different sectors and different spaces that we operate in so that people are engaged.
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:19.920
So we talk about liturgy being the source and summit of our face because of that full participation, that it's part of the story, part of you participating in the journey rather than just uh being a witness to or but it's actually the doing, not just the saying and the words.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:20.800
So thank you for that.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:24.000
And I I love being reminded that to be fun sometimes too.
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:29.119
It's not all of that ritual can and should be fun as well sometimes.
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:33.280
And that's part of the whole of our lives that we bring to ministry.
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:52.239
So as we're getting towards the end of our conversation, what's a piece of advice that you would give, or maybe it's the invitation perhaps, of what you would give to talk to someone that is completely new to the idea of a Catholic worldview, but has that spark of interest that they'd like to know more?
00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:00.079
I would say to that dear soul, it's more than you can ever hope for or imagine.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:01.599
There's a place for you.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:13.360
There's a place and there's a home for you, and it will grow on the journey and it will take you to places that you never thought possible, but that will be more than you can ever hope for or imagine.
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:17.760
I would say do you want to come over for lunch or go for a drink?
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:22.480
Because people will only go on the journey generally with other people.
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:28.719
It's the norm has changed to become a person of faith or even to be taking a little step in that direction.
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:34.079
The other thing I'd just in the early thing, I'd probably say, well, you know, would you like just to pray a little bit?
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:38.079
You might be inspired in this journey forward and whichever way it goes.
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:43.440
Obviously, I think as a person of faith it's a great idea, it's really wonderful for me and really helps my life.
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:46.719
But let's pray a little bit about you and your journey.
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:59.199
And just say a short prayer with them if they're happy to do that, and then also help them practically get on their way, most importantly, probably through friendship or not with ourselves, with someone else who can help them on that journey.
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.159
I was hoping, Martin, that you'd offer something practical.
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:07.599
Even in our responses, there's two very different responses, right?
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:16.800
One speaking to the lofty desires of the soul, and the other recognizing the body, the material reality of incarnation and practical things.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:17.119
Yeah.
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:20.400
It's not either all, it's this and no, you want both.
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:25.920
And it's very inspirational for a lot of people to really hear the theological understandings and all of that.
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:35.199
And I talk about the others because that's an area where I think less people have the expertise, and I've just been around too long and been in all these different jobs and have picked up some of that.
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:44.000
I really appreciate both your contributions, both practical and at a theological level, and also just at a story level about personal experiences.
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:50.559
But in the end, it's all about for me how my relationship with God helps me in my life for trying to live that.
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:54.079
And if people ask me about it, I can you know tell them the reasons why.
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:58.239
As I say, you know, what are the reasons that you have for the hope that you have within you?
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.039
So to do that with patience and respect.
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:02.800
That's you know what we're trying to do.
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:04.719
And we all do it in our different ways.
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:10.159
And of course, some people will be drawn more to one than the other, but there's ten different ways that we do it.
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.639
It's great to have this conversation, to be looking at all those possibilities.
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:18.000
And I'll just finish on one note, if that's okay.
00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:25.199
We have at the moment this unusual thing where we have a record number of people coming to the Catholic Church in Australia.
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:28.880
It's the most ever at Easter coming into the Catholic Church.
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:30.639
And it's happening right around the country.
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:34.000
And also the hints are that it's happening internationally as well.
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:46.159
So even though we're losing people in some ways, still, unfortunately, from Parish Life, we actually have this record number of people, and in some cases, it's doubled in the last two years of people coming into the church in the diocese.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:50.639
So something is inspiring people to ask those questions.
00:42:51.039 --> 00:43:03.199
Well, I can't thank you enough for sharing both your expertise and your faith journeys, and just the love that's evident in your sharing and your faith stories is a beautiful thing to behold.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:09.360
So thank you for sharing that with our community calling community uh Good Samaritan Education and beyond.
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:10.000
Wonderful.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:10.719
Thank you so much.
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:11.760
Thank you.
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:13.760
Thank you, Jenny.
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:14.880
Yeah, thanks.
00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:34.880
Well, Jenny and Martin in that generous conversation brought many faces of the Catholic worldview there, coming from that place of a resonant faith into those deep conversations with such a beautiful witness.
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:37.679
A witness to that generous heart of the Catholic worldview.
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:39.679
So I hope that helped you.
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:48.239
Probably brought up many questions for you as well about how that actually comes to life in your experience and in your places of ministry.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.800
But I hope that is food for thought for the day.
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:58.400
So as you continue about your day, may the table of hospitality be wide, inviting all to go and do likewise.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.919
Welcome to Good Samaritan Education's podcast, Communio Calling.
00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:07.120
My name is Gabrielle Sinclair and I'll be your host.
00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:19.199
Today's conversation I hope you'll find as interesting as I did because I'm really trying to nut out what is a Catholic worldview.
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Now many of our schools will talk about their Catholic identity, how they shape that, what it looks like, how they manifest that in their day-to-day life of the community.
00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:46.000
But when we invite people into our ministries and they come with very diverse backgrounds and views, and we want that rich conversation, but we want it to also be grounded and very particularly grounded in our Catholic worldview because after all, our ministry is that of a Catholic one, and we're very proud of that.
00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:52.000
So, how do we bring people on board that might not understand that delicate nuance of a Catholic worldview?
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So, to help me in my conversation today is Jenny Hicks and Martin Tulin.
00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:17.439
So Jenny Hickson has been part of the Catholic world of formation for over 20 years and has held many leadership positions across many Catholic ministries and is currently the Director of Mission and Formation for Dominican Education Australia, where she's responsible for creating and facilitating Catholic formation in trustees, ministry boards, and mission leaders.
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Martin Chulan is our other guest, and he has also worked across many sectors in the Catholic world of ministry and mission, having worked in health, education, social services, diocese, parishes, and overseas mission.
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He was the National Director for Catholic Mission and is currently the Executive Director of the Association of Ministerial Public Juridic Persons, which is the peak body for Catholic organizations like Good Samaritan Education, which are lay-led Catholic ministries.
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So we're gonna dig deep into this conversation.
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I hope it's enlightening for you, but it's a really rigorous and actually beautiful conversation about what it means to look at the world through a Catholic lens.
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So let's jump into the conversation and I'll let them help us shape that conversation.
00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:10.639
Well, today on Camino Calling, we have Jimmy Hickson and Martin Chulen.
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And our podcast, as many of you know, is very much about being grounded in story and really investigating that incarnational reality of who we are in our connection and how we express the diversity of who we are.
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So we always start with story.
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So I don't know who would like to go first, but would you mind sharing a bit of your own story from the influences and your family growing up and what's moulded you and shaped you into the life and work that you find yourself in today?
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So I'm Jennifer Francis Hickson, and I love my middle name, Francis.
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I've just sort of been thinking about it a lot lately, that middle name.
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So that's a by way of introduction to me.
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Growing up, I was a cradle Catholic and part of a large family, the youngest in a large family.
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So lots of good fun and chaos, which again has, I think, helped me launch into life.
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I don't feel anyone is ever a stranger and everyone's of the possibility of a connection and a relationship.
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I've been working in the area of faith formation pretty much since I left university, studying English literature initially and performance studies at Sydney University, and then going into St.
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Vincent de Paul Society as an employee there, working as a Darsen Youth Coordinator.
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And then I went on to study theology at the Catholic Institute of Sydney.
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I'm a mum of three daughters, married, got three daughters, two in primary school and one in high school.
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So coming back to Frances, which Frances is your middle name for?
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Well, I asked Mum about this.
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I've been named after a few people.
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I think her obstetrician's name was Frances.
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But I like that.
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You know, we may have come in that door into my love of that name, but it's grown into something else.
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Obviously, Pope Francis and I love animals.
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I'll never see a dog without patting it.
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Generally, I'll I'll stop and ask the owner, can I pat your dog?
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And bringing home straight animals to mum and dad and as a child, which is just what they needed with six kids and running various ministries in the local parish.
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I think I remember once saying to them, Well, God's not going to be pleased if you don't let us keep this one.
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So anyway, I guess I've had a strong sense of receiving the gift of faith in my life, and that that's come down to me from many generations.
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Mum tells stories of my great-great-grandfather or my great-grandfather, I think he was in Queensland as the bank manager every day in prayer in mourning before his day's work.
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And I like to think that those prayers of his from long ago have reached into my life and me as a the following generations of those who've received faith and I receive this gift.
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And so it's been very formative in my life to try and care for this gift, tussle with it, struggle with it, but care for it.
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And so I have a profound sense of that gift in my life.
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So I'm working now in the area of formation with Dominican Education Australia, formation with their boards and various levels of the organization, the trustees.
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And I've come to this work from a number of other places.
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I've been with, as I mentioned, St.
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Vincent of Paul Society working in the area of social services.
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And then I was in healthcare at the MARTA Hospital and with St.
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Vincent's Health Australia.
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I was involved also with the Jesuits in youth and young adult ministry and now here in education.
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So I've been kicking around really what is it to respond to the divine in action?
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And how do we form and equip people on that journey in our places of action?
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Ministry, schools, hospitals, social outreach.
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What is that dynamic and how does it change with time in response to the society we live in?
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And great questions that we will dig into further shortly.
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Thanks, Jenny.
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Martin, would you like to share us a little bit of your journey?
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Yes, I grew up basically with a single mother in the 60s, which was a pretty difficult task for her.
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And she was a great person of faith.
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And I think that basically the witness of her, both in how she looked after us at a time when no one else we knew was a single mother, say in the whole school.
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And it was very difficult for her.
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And she was obviously we weren't well off at all.
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She just gave us tremendous witness at the personal level in looking after us and also in our faith.
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And therefore, you know, most of us in the family are still involved very much with faith and even in leadership roles in different places.
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So that was a great start.
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Uh I went through school and uh I went to some of the additional things that the Maris brothers put on for young people, and then became a teacher in a Catholic school, having trained actually in the state system, which was good.
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But then I felt that schools were a bit of a village and I wanted something a bit bigger.
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So I went into Catholic Mission.
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Uh then I worked in a diocese.
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I worked for the Wesley Mission in marketing and fundraising.
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Then I ran a big purchasing group in the church, which also ran Cat News.
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Then I was national director of Catholic Mission and then worked with an Aboriginal organization as a consultant with a whole lot of different church entities, both Catholic and other churches, and also as a consultant for parishes.
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Then I went into health as the director of mission, a bit like Jenny.
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So we've both been round the traps.
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And usually not many people really cross all those different barriers.
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So it's been a great privilege.
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It's also just helpful because it helps you to see how across the whole breadth of sort of the Catholic and even beyond the Catholic Church, there's so much in common in people's journey towards faith and membership of a faith community.
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So my role with uh AMPJP, which is the Association of Ministerial Public Juridic Persons, but basically they're just big Catholic organisations that are really these days mostly led by lay people.
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The role there in particular is actually the formation of trustees, but it also extends into other areas as well.
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Yeah, we're also trying to make sure that as these huge organizations, some of them employing, you know, tens of thousands of people, operate, that we still stick to our mission and that we still really have a good understanding of what it is to be a Christian organization and a Catholic organisation in today as well.
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Yeah, it's really the crux of our conversation as we move into it today.
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But Martin, before I let you off the hook, do you want to tell us a bit about your family?
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Yes.
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I just think I I was gonna start with that and then I forgot to put it in the end.
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Yeah, so basically I have three daughters of my own who are all grown up and have children now, and I've inherited four stepchildren as well, and one of those has uh couple of kids.
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And there's uh another niece who's part of the family, so that's all all good fun and makes us a little bit busy in that sense as well.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, well, thank you very much for sharing part of your story, just so our listeners have a bit of a background to the conversation, because as I'm listening to you, I'm aware that the three of us are very much real Catholics and have in some ways been in the Catholic bubble for a long time, but also even just in hearing your stories, making sure that we're aware of where the bubble bursts and our engagement in the broader Christian community and of course the global community and across the places that we find ourselves in are always looking different.
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So the conversation that I really wanted to engage with you today is about the foundations of formation and introductory steps or the intentionality about that mission and staying focused to who we are.
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You know, across many of our Catholic organizations and ministries, there are lots of great people doing great work and with varying degrees of understanding what it is to be Catholic.
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So the media sometimes has a very low bar of what it means to be Catholic, and there's obviously a reckoning there for all of us.
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But when you guys hear the phrase a Catholic way of seeing the world or a Catholic worldview, what does it mean to you and what do you draw on to help people understand what that looks like?
00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:15.519
I think for people on the outside in particular, it's really important to be simple in the message at first because we have such an experience of being Catholic and we can explain the same thing in a hundred different ways.
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So for me, it's really talking about as we should be, what we aspire to be is people who love God and who love our neighbour.
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Loving God's important because it gives you meaningful life, it gives you the hope of eternal life, it gives you God as a companion when things aren't the best and support when you need it, also someone to celebrate with at times, and also an understanding of being in a relationship.
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God gives you constancy and um gives you a constant support in in your life, which I think is really a huge benefit for people.
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And that constancy and support is also lived out in a Christian community, so you've really got to be part of the community, and that community supports you as well, and is to some extent also God in your life through those other people.
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So I think that's really, really important.
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The other side is loving your neighbour.
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I think it's something which we often have to work on.
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The fact is really that it's an equally important part of our lives.
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And I remember in one of my roles with Catholic mission, basically we used to have a meeting with Pope Francis each year.
00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:19.919
The very first meeting, he had his prepared speech.
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He'd only just been Pope for about a month, had his prepared speech, which is sort of put together by the Pope Benedict crew, who also had you know good talks and that, but he was different.
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So he read that for about a minute, then he put it down and he said, I'd like you to do two things.
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He said, first of all, I'd like you to go home and thank all the people who've been giving the Catholic mission their money over many years, because it's made a huge difference to people in so many countries.
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It's really been wonderful.
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And he said, the second thing I'd like you to do is that I'd also like you to ask every one of them to reach out personally to people in need.
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Reach out personally, not just to give money, but also to reach out personally so they really have a connection with people who are poor, people who are in need.
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And they'll find that's both rewarding, and of course, that will change the lives of so many people as well.
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So they're the sort of things that we aspire to.
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But it's also important to know that that community is going to be a really supportive means of bringing people into a relationship with God and also into the opportunities to care for people in there.
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.200
Thanks, Matton.
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:38.559
I remember when I was studying at CIS Catholic Institute, I remember this moment when a lecturer said to be Catholic is it's not to be either all, it's to be this and.
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And it really like that line, I still remember it in the lecture room.
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To be deeply Catholic is to not be either all, black or white, but this and.
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And so I've chewed over that for a good 20 years.
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And so it's this sense of death and resurrection, justice and mercy, depth and simplicity.
00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:06.720
And this also means that my understanding of Catholicism is both solid and shifting.
00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:10.240
You know, at times I have great conviction and mystery.
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At times I'm filled with faith and have doubt.
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It's a very sort of lofty, abstract answer to your question.
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So, how has it manifested in ministry for me, that idea?
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So when I was in the hospital and I was trying to embody and put words around this hospital that had stepped out into the world in faith, these sisters of mercy initially who founded the Martyr Hospital.
00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:40.559
And I remember one story would tell the new staff, I'd always do the orientation.
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You might remember this too, Martin.
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You'd have the orientation for new staff, and then we'd run it, I don't know, every quarter.
00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:52.720
And it was wonderful because there'd be people who'd come to the organization who were CEO, the cleaner, the nursing staff, the cook.
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And I was like a pig in mud.
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I was like, okay, how am I going to convey some of this?
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And I'd tell story.
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Story always with the intention of meeting their story.
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And I'd tell the story of how the sisters during the depression, when everyone else was closing in and thinking these are difficult times, went out and learned how to be midwives and created an obstetrics department that is now one of the best in Sydney.
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:27.120
So conveying something of the story, it opens up the person to wonder, to all.
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And so for me, that is deeply Catholic.
00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:33.919
It's something of depth, it's something of the divine.
00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:35.440
And Martin spoke about that.
00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.759
There's something very simple about it.
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:40.159
And how I came to be.
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:46.080
I mean, yes, I received the gift of faith as a child, whatever, but my bubble burst lots of times.
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.000
I loved that phrase you use, Gab.
00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:54.559
The bubble burst, it had to burst because I don't want a God that's so limited by my barriers, right?
00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.320
I need to be shaken.
00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:59.279
So silence became really important.
00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:05.840
So when I think about Catholicism, I think about periods of great silence and Eucharist.
00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:08.240
Maybe we could get into that later.
00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:10.879
I love those paradoxes.
00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:17.840
And I think that very much highlights for me my own experience of that faith and doubt sit on the same plane.
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.559
They're not opposite, they exist together.
00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:31.360
And I think my experience of a Catholic worldview is being comfortable with that or finding space in that, that it you don't have to, as you say, have a black and white or a all-knowing.
00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:33.120
The more I know, the more I don't know.
00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.120
I think that whole idea of accepting mystery, we don't know.
00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:40.879
But that's not a end point.
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:43.120
That's actually the opening to the wonder.
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:47.440
That's the wow, that's the invitation rather than the solution.
00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:54.159
And I think that's one of my understandings of the Catholic worldview is it's highly invitational and it's incarnational.
00:15:54.240 --> 00:16:01.759
So it's as Martin was saying, Martin was really talking about that relational aspect, the personal relationship, the communal relationship that we have.
00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:06.000
And I think, as you've said, Jen, it's neither either or, it's both and.
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:07.279
I mean, all of those things.
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:10.720
Some people have a very private and personal faith, which is great.
00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:14.240
But even so, they are part of something much larger.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:20.639
And I think the Catholic worldview is always inviting them back into the community of that journey together.
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:23.120
Just one thing.
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:29.600
We're recording this just after the in Lent after the Transfiguration was the gospel on the last Sunday.
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:40.320
And I just wanted to add the other thing that I was pondering in that passage where God says to Jesus, You are my son, you are my beloved, and listen to him.
00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.360
There's something very particular about that.
00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:49.440
So God, in amongst all this mystery that I've named, which is right and true, there's a truth to that.
00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:53.039
But alongside that sits particularity.
00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:56.320
This is Jesus, and he is my son.
00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:57.440
Listen to him.
00:16:57.679 --> 00:16:58.559
That's very particular.
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:00.480
You know, that's a very definite way.
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:01.919
So I just wanted to add that too.
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:09.920
I've been playing with this idea of the particularity of our Catholic faith in amongst a very pluralistic context.
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.319
Yeah, because we'll get into that later about all the different expressions.
00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:16.240
But Martin, did you want to add something?
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:24.480
Catholic faith is perhaps a little bit different from some of the other Christian churches in that invitational attitude that you've just talked about.
00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:28.960
And particularly the greatest documents of the church are aimed at people of goodwill.
00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:39.200
And in our ministries, one of the key things is that we invite all people of goodwill to participate with us in ministries, particularly these large ministries that we're a part of.
00:17:39.519 --> 00:18:04.880
And then also the attitude to people of other faiths that I think that the Catholic Church really encourages the fact that we have a close relationship with them because the fact that we have faith in many ways sets us apart from other people in the world, but not for that reason, but for the reason that we respect their faith, we love their faith, we want to hear about their faith, we want to hear about their experience of their faith, and we want to be able to share ours as well.
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:11.519
So that important dialogue, listening to the truth, we can talk about what we do and why we do it, and we can do that openly.
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:18.640
We don't have to be afraid to do that, and at the same time, we shouldn't be afraid to hear about the faith experience of other people as well.
00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:32.720
And in terms of our ministries, again, to invite them as people of good will and with a perhaps a little bit of a bonus of being people of faith to also participate in our ministries in a full way, along with, you know, involved Catholic people.
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:42.319
I think Martin, I can't recall the exact quote at the minute, but I'm recalling a quote about, you know, each different faith has something to teach us.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:49.759
It's different expression, just as we'll talk about different expressions of the Catholic faith, every expression of faith is a window into God in a different particular way.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:19:01.119
So I think that polarity of our society is something not to be afraid of, but uh to be in relationship with as well, which is why I think we have so many wonderful opportunities to engage in dialogue.
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:11.759
When I did a Google search in preparation for this, just to see what's out there when we talk about Catholic worldview, uh, principal wrote a speech back in 2024 about what it is to have a Catholic worldview.
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:13.279
So this is just a thought snip.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:16.720
So to be authentically Catholic is to love.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:26.799
It is a state of being that, like you, is deeply passionate about the human condition, deeply passionate about who we are and what we are capable of.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:38.799
It considers life as a gift, a gift that must be responded to with gratitude, a gratitude that manifests itself in generosity, a generosity that eats life.
00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:43.680
So we've kind of been talking about that generosity, that bigger picture of things.
00:19:43.839 --> 00:20:05.359
How might this way of seeing people and life shape the way that we help people navigate those that work in our Catholic landscape, whether they are Catholic or not, whether they're cradle Catholic, you know, maybe shelved it after primary school and uh wanting to work in this space, or those that are coming to our ministries that have not had that lens put before them before.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:08.079
So, what does that look like for people, do you think?
00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:10.319
How can we shape that space?
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:14.960
One of the things we talked about a lot when I worked in the hospital was the values of the hospital.
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:21.440
And that was in a hospital where, as far as I was aware, there were about six practicing Catholics out of 630 staff.
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:22.720
But we talked a lot about values.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:27.279
In fact, they used to laugh, you know, oh, we're on about the values again, you know, at the sort of management meetings.
00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:31.519
But we really did concentrate on living out those values in a way.
00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:47.359
And so people who'd come into, it was a public hospital, so most of the staff had come in from other hospitals in public health over time, and they really were impacted by the fact we spent all this time talking about the values, Christian values, but also societal values.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:56.240
And of course, I suppose the the number, two biggest ones there were compassion, which if you're in a hospital hospital and you're not into compassion, you're probably in the wrong job.
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.799
And secondly, hospitality, which was the sort of particular value of St.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:06.799
John of God, who was known for his hospitality and fed everyone and did all these things for people.
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:17.279
So the concentration on values was something which they picked up, and we ran surveys of the staff, and we asked the managers who didn't have a Christian background or necessarily at all.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:23.359
They said, Do you feel comfortable with those values and do you feel that you can actually help imbue them with your teams?
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:25.839
You know, 90% of us said yes.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:38.880
And the 10% were the people who got there and feeling a bit nervous about moving into a Catholic hospital and they hadn't quite had enough experience, or they said, I don't feel quite confident yet, but I'm really happy to be on that journey.
00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:41.599
I think that's a positive starting point.
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:47.039
Now, at the same time, at that same hospital before my time, there was a previous director admission.
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:49.200
But when I got there, there was an eight month gap.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:50.720
And so we didn't have a crossover.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:54.160
I did actually run into her and had a meeting with her, but not till after this.
00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:59.759
Anyway, after I was there for a few months, the phalanx of nurse unit managers saw that.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.039
You know, sisters we call them in the old days, the in charge of each board.
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.039
I saw them come towards me in the corridor and I was slightly afraid.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:11.279
They came up to me and they said, Martin, I said, What's happened to our retreat?
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:13.279
And I said, Oh, what retreat?
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:21.920
They said, Oh, the previous lady, she took us on a retreat, and we all went down to Jambaroo Abbey every year and had a weekend retreat there.
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:23.680
So where's the one for this year?
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.279
And I'd said, Oh look, I didn't even know that we ever did it.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.960
It was just one of those things that there was never a conversation until now about all that.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:36.480
What had happened was that she had done this and she organized it in her own time, the previous person and everything else.
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:37.599
And these people loved it.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:39.920
They came to the place, it was a new experience for them.
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:54.960
But the generosity of her time in organizing it, making it happen, and making it such a positive experience was a great witness that also helped people go on a step that gave them exposure and an opportunity for the faith side of life, which otherwise they may never have had.
00:22:55.119 --> 00:23:03.200
The key thing is that in our ministries, we should be giving people both the opportunity to grow in faith and the opportunity to grow in outreach to people in me.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:04.720
Great, thanks.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:12.400
One of the things I was just reflecting on then is obviously those different entry points that we provide for people to engage in do.
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:18.160
Because we'll have those people that have very little lens to operate from in Catholic worldview sense.
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.160
And then you've got the, you know, some of the diehard Catholics that want to go deeper and want more as well.
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.559
So we've got to administer to all of those and be able to form all of those contexts.
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:32.319
So that differentiated learning is a challenge to how we navigate that those spaces because sometimes they're in the same room.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:34.240
Jenny, did you want to add?
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:41.200
Well, funnily enough, the point I was going to raise was both the point that you just made, Gavin, you were making towards the end, Martin.
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:48.319
I was thinking about the importance of formation for people in key roles in these ministries.
00:23:48.559 --> 00:24:00.079
Martin gave the example of, say, six people who might be Catholic in a Catholic ministry and therefore various other experiences coming into that ministry and embarking on the work of that ministry.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:13.680
So it's really important that there are some people in leadership who do have solid formation and understanding of the vision for that ministry, its purpose, and what it is entrusted to do.
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:25.839
And the way I pose it to boards that I'm working with of Catholic ministries is, you know, when is something mission drift and when is it agility and responding to the signs of the times?
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:29.440
Now, that question alone is searing, right?
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:35.039
And it's a sense of, well, what lens do I use to even answer that question?
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:37.119
Do I use social sciences?
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:47.359
Do I use the tradition of the Catholic Church to discern when we are drifting from mission and when we are being agile to read the signs of the times?
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:57.039
Even this idea of rigidity to read the signs of the times coming from Newman, a great thinker in the church, who would sort of say to change often is faithfulness.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:00.480
I paraphrase these words, but that's the sentiment is a giant.
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:01.680
A little old me.
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:03.359
I'm having a crack at his thinking.
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.839
That's what we're always trying to do in formation, right?
00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:10.880
We're trying to not puree too much and spoon feed too much the riches of the church.
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:20.480
But there is some need to do that, to look at the tradition, and that's deeply Catholic, that has a wealth of beauty in its thinking.
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:21.839
We stand on that.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:41.759
That's part of who we are, that tradition element of our Catholicism, to know that and to be able to translate it for those in governance who may have no connection or formation in it whatsoever, so that they can look at the fork in the road and say, we're drifting or we're responding appropriately with change.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:26:02.400
So that would be important for me in terms of approaching formation for people in our ministries and just also to name, we haven't named it explicitly, but just the huge shift that these organizations have gone through to be at one time the ministry was embarked on by people religious or clergy in their origins.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:10.240
And so therefore, I remember asking one of the sisters who was involved in their congregation in founding one of the ministries that I'm now connected with.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:12.720
And she sort of said it was just by osmosis.
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:15.440
People figured out what we were by osmosis.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:16.960
We were around them every day.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:21.359
Now, when that has changed, it has changed, we're already well into that change.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:31.039
But that continued remembering is important to say that was part of what established this ministry.
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:49.839
And we have to be attentive to work out how we are mitigating or ensuring that that modeling of faith and how we act in response to faith is being lived out in our ministries, in a hospital now or in a school now.
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:58.240
And it's really important, Jenny, because I think whether religious were habited or not, everyone knew who they were in a ministry context when they're in that space.
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:08.880
And the transition to our lay-led ministries doesn't have the same nuance and it has to be more explicit about that leadership.
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:17.440
It doesn't just happen by osmosis because they're the religious that are present, but also have years and years and years of toleration behind their spiritual practice in their community.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:25.759
That's part of their lived life, to have a lay-led organization that's led by spirit-filled people, but the osmosis isn't as natural.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:30.960
And so we have to be more explicit in that space to name and to be authentic to God.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:34.799
But I love that question you pose, Jenny, that that fork in the road.
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:44.720
Because sometimes if we look back at our histories of our ministries, the thing that might look like mission drift then became a major part of their characterism and their ministry because they took a leap of faith.
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:46.160
So how do we hold that?
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:50.400
And it's people of faith that can do that to understand what that looks like.
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:52.880
So that's really hard to wrestle with.
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:54.720
Are we taking a leap of faith?
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:56.720
Or as you said, is it mission drift?
00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:57.759
Because we can.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:00.319
Yeah.
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:00.960
Yeah.
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:08.160
And, you know, when you have faith and you're attentive to that, that discernment of spirits, our tradition would name it as.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:15.279
Now, someone in a boardroom might not feel comfortable with that terminology because that's very particular to our tradition.
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:16.640
I think it's really interesting.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:20.000
I think these are some of the key questions of today for ministries.
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:29.839
I mean, one thing is do we actually look for and look to support and look to grow people of faith in our ministries or outside of our ministries that might go into our ministries?
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:38.160
And in some cases, I'm not even sure that people of faith would have any advantage in going to the job if they had all the same skills and qualities as someone else.
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:40.240
I think in some jobs they'd be the first person picked.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:51.440
And in other cases, in other places, they would perhaps not be picked at all because the people who are in the ministry may not feel comfortable with someone of faith being there.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:53.680
Perhaps they're seeing their own deficit.
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:55.359
So I think we have to be a bit careful of that.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:07.920
I think overall we have to be looking at developing young people of faith as leaders, and we have to massively increase the amount of funds and the amount of resource we put into formation.
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:17.920
It's often said that the number of years that religious are in formation is reflected for lay people in the number of days they're in formation.
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:28.880
So basically, if you look at one of the orders, the amount of effort and time and money that they put into the formation of their members was a significant part of their ministry.
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.119
But it's not nearly as much for the Catholic ministries that we have.
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:53.359
And we won't be able to maintain the Catholicity unless we massively increase the amount of formation, because you just need to be able to develop that, and then you can have as, as you both said, sort of an osmosis effect where you're immersed in the Catholic faith and you have a better ability to be able to understand whether you're on mission or not.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:30:05.359
Or if someone challenges you in that mission, because it isn't always easy at all, then you've got a more ability to sort of say, Well, we're going to go in this direction for this reason, and this is why, and this is why I believe we're on mission.
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.279
I think there's some things we need to do.
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:12.880
And just to give an example of the differentiation, the amount of formation understood.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:20.240
I was speaking to a principal of a Christian school, you know, one of these new Brussels in Sydney, Western Suburbs Christian schools that come up.
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.759
So at first the school started as a all Christian school.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:25.279
So there were 300 kids.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:31.039
But basically, very hard to maintain a school of that size, and they decided they would go to what they call open enrolment.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:32.720
That meant that anyone could come.
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:40.079
So they still had their core 300 Christian kids, but they expected another 300 and basically didn't expect any of them very much to be Christians at all.
00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.480
So he said to me, Yes, this is a really big change for us.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:47.359
And I was doing surveys in schools, and they were interested in surveying the change to see what happened.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:55.759
He said, So for those extra 300, we've hired three additional youth ministers so that we can help in the formation of those kids.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:03.359
And we hope that's enough to be able to actually, you know, make a difference to their lives and to induct them and form them as members of this Christian community.
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:10.400
Now, I don't know any Catholic school, and there might be the odd one that has three youth ministers, but none of them would have in a 600 kids.
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:12.880
Well, I'm sorry, actually at least another one.
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:15.680
So at least four of them in a 600 kid school.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:23.039
But that was the understanding of the amount of resourcing that you needed to actually be able to take the people on the journey of faith.
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:28.480
And it comes from an understanding that they've had in developing parishes and churches in the same means.
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:33.680
So a key thing for us is that we really have to expand the resourcing of formation.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:36.319
We have to look for the people and help them to grow.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:47.359
And also, even beyond that, we have to be part of a whole of church approach to formation because our formation in our parishes is so limited.
00:31:47.680 --> 00:32:00.240
So people in a Christian church, the expectation as they go into ministry in a Christian ministry, whether it's a school or could be a hospital or aged care, is that basically most of that formation will be delivered at a parish or church level.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:05.839
And they've got more than half of people in Christian churches in Australia in a small group meeting weekly.
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.079
And often there's other things as well for them.
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:10.319
So they'll often have two church services a week.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:16.640
So the level of formation that we're offering and we have expectations of is very, very low.
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:30.880
And when we compare it to the orders who are sitting there basically being formed every day through coming together in prayer and discussions, and also just round the lunch table or the dinner table, the conversations, which you know were part of my upbringing too with the aunties.
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:32.400
That's the sort of thing we need.
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:38.160
If we really want to maintain the Catholicity, that's the level of formation that I believe we'll need.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.519
I think you hit also on a really important aspect.
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:47.119
Because while we absolutely need to increase the resourcing, we have to be smarter about it too.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:49.680
There is limited funds to do that.
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:53.119
And there's no exponential increase coming out of nowhere.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:55.200
No one's found the wonderful money tree.
00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:00.559
And so across our Catholic organizations, we have to be working at how to do that smarter too.
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:01.599
Yes, definitely.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:03.920
And sharing resources and doing whatever.
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:06.240
But also, no, just find the money.
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:07.680
Yeah, definitely find that.
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:09.200
I wasn't saying don't.
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.559
We absolutely need it.
00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:12.240
And it's never easy.
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:15.839
And I have been a fundraiser in my past, so I don't mind asking people for money.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:19.440
But it is possible to find the money if you really believe it's important.
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:21.839
It's not simple, but it is possible.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.440
The reason I don't believe we found the money is that we haven't believed we needed it.
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.000
This is not my quote, but I remember hearing it.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:29.680
I wish I could name who it was.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:33.200
But you know, that idea that show me your budget and I'll tell you your mission.
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:34.400
Martin, do you know who said that?
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:35.839
Maybe it was just a Liz Dodds.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.000
I think maybe I heard that around the traps.
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:40.880
Certainly, definitely sounds like that.
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:45.759
Yes, well, certainly there was a lot of no money, no mission talk in Catholic at the time.
00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:46.960
Yeah, that's right.
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:48.400
Well, that's the rebuttal, isn't it?
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:52.160
No money, no mission, but actually show me your budget and I'll tell you your mission.
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:52.640
Yeah.
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:55.599
And one of the key things in that is telling these success stories.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:03.200
And there are success stories out there, and we need to gather those because most of the movement of people towards faith, it's all about inspiration.
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:04.400
Who inspires them?
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:05.680
Who is the witness to them?
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.519
Who makes them feel that they're part of a community that's really important to them?
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:20.719
I think coming back to the inspiration and the aspect of Catholic worldview that we touched on a little bit earlier, it was the multiple ways of expressing and living out that Catholicism, that way of following the gospel.
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:33.039
In your concrete spaces at this time, what are the kind of experiences and practices or listening that help staff live this sacramentality, this incarnational worldview together?
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:35.840
What are the touchstones that help in a charism?
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:39.440
Martin, you're seeing lots of different charisms in your workspace at the moment.
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:48.320
Where are the touchstones that help people connect across these multiple ways of expressing and living out this way of being together?
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:53.840
From my context, the current one I'm in is education, although I am moving in a few other spheres.
00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:55.840
Liturgy is really important.
00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:01.039
Those liturgical celebrations of celebrating the founders' feast day.
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:02.480
That's always a big moment.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:06.559
And it creates culture, and the kids really get on board with it.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:13.440
And that's something beautiful that comes from the tradition when they gather and celebrate Eucharist, break bread, something happens.
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:27.440
And I was at a school celebrating one of the founders' days late last year, and I was almost in tears at the beauty of the expression across the young students to the older students to some of the sisters who were there from the founding congregation.
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:30.639
And I thought, this is good and we do this well.
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:38.559
And young women were doing liturgical dances, and I thought to myself, they are probably never going to get that chance to do that again in their life.
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:51.760
And they'll look back on those moments, even if they're not connected to church in any way, they'll look back and they'll know that they've touched something of beauty, something of communion, something of the communal aspect of worship.
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:58.000
And that will be, I suspect, if they're open to it, very profound in their life, that they'll look back on.
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:05.119
So I think we're doing that well in particular in education, liturgical celebrations and bringing that to life.
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.719
And they're masterful at creating liturgies of welcome.
00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:11.760
I totally agree with the whole importance of liturgy.
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:14.239
And also these days, of course, everyone's watching the voice.
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:26.079
And it's an opportunity for kids to get up there and you know perform in a really positive way and just liturgical dance, even but just to have this wonderful experience of music and movement, and that's absolutely crucial.
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:32.639
I go to perhaps the best children's mass in Australia at North Sydney on a Sunday morning and pack with kids.
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:33.039
Why?
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:35.440
Because they all have the movements, everything else, all those things.
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:43.679
I missed out on that, not being a high school teacher, not primary, but they're going all over the place and the arms are flailing and everything else, and got 10 kids up the front going to house.
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:45.280
And it's just great fun.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:50.079
And to get out of church on Sunday, this little kid says, So when do we get to go to church again?
00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:51.679
So it's a really positive experience.
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:54.960
But with the older kids too, I've just seen such liturgies and differences.
00:36:55.280 --> 00:37:02.719
So the Easter liturgy is done on the oval or at Portsfield at the side of the school, and they're just magnificent and they're very, very moving.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:08.480
Year 12 retreats are basically understood to be the spiritual highlight of so many kids' lives.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.960
Of course, they're done with great feeling, movement.
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:13.760
They can feel their own spirit be moved and those sorts of things.
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:24.159
So the other thing is the charism and the story of the founder and founders going through perhaps the ones who came to Australia, they're really important too in being inspirational for people.
00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:37.760
So even at a hospital where they've never come across that in their life, they're inspired by the nuns who came out to Australia, some of them at 17 years of age, to care for people with terrible diseases, you know, on the gold fields or in the bush or whatever.
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:39.920
All those elements are really positive.
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:42.239
We have lots of great things in place.
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:49.599
I also love never seen someone in a hospital who didn't like Shrove Tuesday, and they they get their pancakes and how many do they get, and they can they come back for seconds?
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.079
To use the great things about it, also with an explanation.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:57.360
So everyone got in their email that day an explanation of what Shrove Tuesday was about.
00:37:57.679 --> 00:38:01.840
There's lots of great stuff that we have, all the saints, everything like that.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.000
And it's uh up to us to keep.
00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:14.639
I think they're doing lots of good things there to keep growing that and also then to keep giving people the opportunity for them at an invitational and voluntary level to take a next step.
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:30.079
Yeah, so what I'm hearing, and it certainly reflects on my experiences as well, is that the intentionality of our rituals, whether they be formal liturgies or just helping people enter with their own story into the story of faith.
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:39.440
Whatever that door looks like for them, whatever that touchstone is, that their story we often talk, but you know, we know out they don't come as empty shelves, they come with their own story.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:47.280
And so finding the touchstones that helps them enter into the story, and that is invitational for them to participate, because that's the idea, right?
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:49.440
We want them to actually engage and participate.
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:51.760
It's not to be a spectator in the space.
00:38:51.920 --> 00:39:05.360
When we talk about those great liturgies in education, when we have as many people as possible have a role and do something, that's that intentionality and finding it in all of the different sectors and different spaces that we operate in so that people are engaged.
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:19.920
So we talk about liturgy being the source and summit of our face because of that full participation, that it's part of the story, part of you participating in the journey rather than just uh being a witness to or but it's actually the doing, not just the saying and the words.
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:20.800
So thank you for that.
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:24.000
And I I love being reminded that to be fun sometimes too.
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:29.119
It's not all of that ritual can and should be fun as well sometimes.
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:33.280
And that's part of the whole of our lives that we bring to ministry.
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:52.239
So as we're getting towards the end of our conversation, what's a piece of advice that you would give, or maybe it's the invitation perhaps, of what you would give to talk to someone that is completely new to the idea of a Catholic worldview, but has that spark of interest that they'd like to know more?
00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:00.079
I would say to that dear soul, it's more than you can ever hope for or imagine.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:01.599
There's a place for you.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:13.360
There's a place and there's a home for you, and it will grow on the journey and it will take you to places that you never thought possible, but that will be more than you can ever hope for or imagine.
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:17.760
I would say do you want to come over for lunch or go for a drink?
00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:22.480
Because people will only go on the journey generally with other people.
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:28.719
It's the norm has changed to become a person of faith or even to be taking a little step in that direction.
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:34.079
The other thing I'd just in the early thing, I'd probably say, well, you know, would you like just to pray a little bit?
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:38.079
You might be inspired in this journey forward and whichever way it goes.
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:43.440
Obviously, I think as a person of faith it's a great idea, it's really wonderful for me and really helps my life.
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:46.719
But let's pray a little bit about you and your journey.
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:59.199
And just say a short prayer with them if they're happy to do that, and then also help them practically get on their way, most importantly, probably through friendship or not with ourselves, with someone else who can help them on that journey.
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.159
I was hoping, Martin, that you'd offer something practical.
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:07.599
Even in our responses, there's two very different responses, right?
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:16.800
One speaking to the lofty desires of the soul, and the other recognizing the body, the material reality of incarnation and practical things.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:17.119
Yeah.
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:20.400
It's not either all, it's this and no, you want both.
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:25.920
And it's very inspirational for a lot of people to really hear the theological understandings and all of that.
00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:35.199
And I talk about the others because that's an area where I think less people have the expertise, and I've just been around too long and been in all these different jobs and have picked up some of that.
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:44.000
I really appreciate both your contributions, both practical and at a theological level, and also just at a story level about personal experiences.
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:50.559
But in the end, it's all about for me how my relationship with God helps me in my life for trying to live that.
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:54.079
And if people ask me about it, I can you know tell them the reasons why.
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:58.239
As I say, you know, what are the reasons that you have for the hope that you have within you?
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.039
So to do that with patience and respect.
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:02.800
That's you know what we're trying to do.
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:04.719
And we all do it in our different ways.
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:10.159
And of course, some people will be drawn more to one than the other, but there's ten different ways that we do it.
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.639
It's great to have this conversation, to be looking at all those possibilities.
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:18.000
And I'll just finish on one note, if that's okay.
00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:25.199
We have at the moment this unusual thing where we have a record number of people coming to the Catholic Church in Australia.
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:28.880
It's the most ever at Easter coming into the Catholic Church.
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:30.639
And it's happening right around the country.
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:34.000
And also the hints are that it's happening internationally as well.
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:46.159
So even though we're losing people in some ways, still, unfortunately, from Parish Life, we actually have this record number of people, and in some cases, it's doubled in the last two years of people coming into the church in the diocese.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:50.639
So something is inspiring people to ask those questions.
00:42:51.039 --> 00:43:03.199
Well, I can't thank you enough for sharing both your expertise and your faith journeys, and just the love that's evident in your sharing and your faith stories is a beautiful thing to behold.
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:09.360
So thank you for sharing that with our community calling community uh Good Samaritan Education and beyond.
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:10.000
Wonderful.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:10.719
Thank you so much.
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:11.760
Thank you.
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:13.760
Thank you, Jenny.
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:14.880
Yeah, thanks.
00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:34.880
Well, Jenny and Martin in that generous conversation brought many faces of the Catholic worldview there, coming from that place of a resonant faith into those deep conversations with such a beautiful witness.
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:37.679
A witness to that generous heart of the Catholic worldview.
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:39.679
So I hope that helped you.
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:48.239
Probably brought up many questions for you as well about how that actually comes to life in your experience and in your places of ministry.
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:50.800
But I hope that is food for thought for the day.
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:58.400
So as you continue about your day, may the table of hospitality be wide, inviting all to go and do likewise.
