Top Communication Hacks For Tech Leaders: Expert Insights With Michael Krigsman!

Michael Krigsman [00:00:00]:
Making the assumption that, you know, everything is the height of arrogance. And when somebody makes that assumption, they are on the path down. If you're not willing to accept and learn and listen, how can you expect that you will evolve and adapt and remain relevant?
Steve Swan [00:00:24]:
Welcome to Biotech fights. I am your host, Steve Swan. Biotech bytes. We chat with folks about technology, typically their thoughts and feelings around technology within biotech. However, today I'm joined by Michael Krigsman. He runs and owns a podcast, CXOTalk. And we're going to be taking a little bit of a twist today. We're going to be doing more along the lines of communications, storytelling, and how to get your message effectively across as a leader.
Steve Swan [00:00:55]:
So, Michael, thank you for joining us.
Michael Krigsman [00:00:57]:
Steve, it's my honor and pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Steve Swan [00:01:02]:
You're welcome. Thank you. And hopefully Boston's treating you well. I know you're up in Boston, and that's where I grew up in Rhode island, and I went to school in Boston. So real excited to be talking to somebody from up in Boston, and let's see what the Red Sox do here coming into the trade deadline. Fingers are crossed.
Michael Krigsman [00:01:18]:
Sounds good.
Steve Swan [00:01:19]:
So I always like to start with my guests to kind of give my audience a foundation into the individual, my guests. Right. So give me a little background as to, you know, where you started and where you came from and what got you into, you know, helping folks effectively communicate.
Michael Krigsman [00:01:38]:
So I am the host of the CXOTalk video podcast. We've done over 800 episodes at this point. Our guests are senior leaders from the largest companies in the world. I got into this because about ten years ago, I was an advisory consultant, and I worked for many of the largest enterprise software companies, and I advised them on marketing, messaging, positioning. And I had this idea thinking, you know, this video thing seems like it might be a good idea. And so I started this live video podcast. At the time, there was nobody else doing this, really in the enterprise. One thing led to another, and as I said, we've done about well over 800 episodes.
Michael Krigsman [00:02:32]:
And our guests read like a who's who of the Fortune 500.
Steve Swan [00:02:37]:
And I think one of the things that you had mentioned to me when we, when we first spoke was, you know, you can even relate to the it folks that we tend to talk to because you started as a we young spudling back in the day as a PM, right, as an iTPm of some sort.
Michael Krigsman [00:02:54]:
Well, I ran a company back in the nineties, and SAP at that time was one of our very largest customers. So I worked very closely with SAP figuring out better ways to implement ERP software and a large portion of that Washington project management. So I have a very, very strong grounding in project management. I also have a very strong grounding in advising CIO's. Our focus now with CXOTalk is on leadership, enterprise AI and the digital economy. But for a very long time the focus was digital transformation. And so I have, you know, and I've written a tremendous amount. So my relationship with CIO's and advising CIO's goes back many years.
Steve Swan [00:03:50]:
Oh, great. Good. Well, so most of the folks, as you may have seen, are CiO's right within biotech that we chat with, and a lot of it is around AI and so on and so forth. And some of the folks talk about the tools, a lot of the folks talk about the individual people, the messaging, things like that. And I think that's more along the lines of what you and I will hit on obviously today. Tell me, I guess just the big thing, the big picture. What do you see with our leaders? A lot of the folks I'm talking to are mid market. A lot of folks you speak with are large company folks or bigger company folks, higher than mid market.
Steve Swan [00:04:28]:
What do you see as I guess, could we say the difference between jumping from one to the other or some of those individuals? Right. What would be your thoughts around, hey, if Im in mid market, if I wanted to make the jump or if I want to think about getting to the next level, is there something that I need to do or change or think about going forward as I continue my networking process?
Michael Krigsman [00:04:49]:
If you want to make the jump from being a smaller company, working at a smaller company to a larger company or being CIO of a smaller organization and wanting to go to a larger one, I think the first step is to be absolutely great at what you do. This seems pretty clear to me, establishing operational excellence at your organization. And at the most basic level, that means just making sure that the systems work, that your security is locked down, that you're not having breaches, that the email is working. I mean, these are kind of basic aspects that you have a handle on your budgeting. So I think that is number one. Number two is think of a stepping stone strategy. And so for me that might translate into try to become a, for example, a regional CIO. So don't expect to make the leap from being the CIO of a smaller organization to being the global CIO of IBM, for example.
Michael Krigsman [00:06:03]:
But IBM has many CIo's. I shouldn't pick on IBM. You know, large companies very often have many different CIO's covering parts of the business. So I would look for a larger company that is in a business, an industry, a space that you really understand well. And then within that larger company, try to identify the business unit, the product line, the geography, whatever it might be that you think you can add real value to. And so as a strategy, I would think about it that way.
Steve Swan [00:06:43]:
Now, what about. We hear a lot about the mentors, right? I mean, in your time and with all the folks you've spoken with, you know, is that something that half the people think about? Three quarters of the people. Do you think 100% of the individuals that have gone from here to here all had mentors or all are in mentorship programs? Where does that. Where do you think that falls? Where does that lie?
Michael Krigsman [00:07:08]:
I think, in general, having a mentor is extremely valuable, somebody to show you the ropes, who can give you practical advice that you can be honest with and straightforward with. I would say try to hook up with folks who are in the target that you hope to achieve. So if you're at a smaller company and say, for example, you're working inside it, you're not yet CIO, find a CIO either inside your company or somewhere else, folks that you can speak with to give you advice. If you're CIO of a small company and you want to go to work for a larger company, find somebody in a larger company to give you advice. I think the idea of mentorship is extremely important.
Steve Swan [00:08:01]:
Yeah, it seems like it is. I talk to my kids about it a lot, but, I mean, even seasoned professionals, every great hitter needed a batting coach all the way through his career. Right. His. You know.
Michael Krigsman [00:08:12]:
So I can tell you for myself, I have been successful in large part because I listen carefully and I take advice well, and I'm not shy about seeking out advice. So I don't think, you know, I think sometimes we have this kind of macho culture where. Where people feel they don't. They shouldn't ask for advice because it's a sign of weakness. I look at it the other way. I look at it as asking for advice is a sign of confidence. A sign of confidence that you feel the basic elements of what you do are solid and in place, and you're confident enough that you can ask for help. Or maybe the basic elements aren't in place, but you're confident enough that with the right advice or guidance, you can change.
Steve Swan [00:09:06]:
Yeah, I've read stories that even I was reading recently I think it was the CEO of Microsoft and the CEO of Google. They both have folks that they talk to that are their coaches. Right. You know, and one of them, I think it was the CEO of Microsoft. One of his coaches is an ex college football coach. Right. And helps them to, you know, move along. And one of his big piece of advice was not making a decision is the worst thing.
Steve Swan [00:09:34]:
Make a decision. It sends you in a direction, right or wrong. You'll find out if you can't figure it out, but you got to make the decision and move that kind of thing.
Michael Krigsman [00:09:42]:
I was just talking with a friend of mine just a couple of days ago who is an executive at a very large pharma company, and he's kind of unsure about whether he wants to stay at this company and so forth. And he was telling me about conversations that he has with his executive coach.
Steve Swan [00:10:05]:
Yeah. You can't be so arrogant to think you don't need one. Right.
Michael Krigsman [00:10:09]:
I think the arrogance, or let me put it this way, I think making the assumption that, you know, everything is the height of arrogance. And when somebody makes that assumption, they are on the path down.
Steve Swan [00:10:25]:
Right, right.
Michael Krigsman [00:10:26]:
Or they've reached there, they have plateaued and reached their level as far as if you're not willing to accept and learn and listen, how can you expect that you will evolve and adapt and remain relevant and grow.
Steve Swan [00:10:44]:
Right. Yeah, exactly.
Michael Krigsman [00:10:45]:
And grow. Exactly.
Steve Swan [00:10:46]:
Now, part of that. Right. Part of that growth, part of that communication with that coach, part of that articulation with them is communication. Right. So, you know, and some of the folks that we know, you know, I'm sure there's definitely a lot of them, you know, used to be behind the keyboard, right. They were technologists. And, you know, being good at what they did, like you recommended, got them recognized. Right.
Steve Swan [00:11:14]:
So then, okay, hey, do you want to manage? Do you want to lead? And then they'll start growing. Right. But communication sometimes gets left behind. You know, I do a lot of time listening to and reading Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. Right. Warren Buffett talks about the Dale Carnegie, which I don't think it's around anymore. Dale Carnegie, a school of communication where he would go and give presentations and things to get his communication skills honed. Anything along those lines of, that you have heard of, recommend, know of where some folks can get involved with, you know, maybe they could take a college course.
Steve Swan [00:11:52]:
Right. And give presentations. I don't know. I'm just trying to throw out ideas, trying to brainstorm here, you know, anything.
Michael Krigsman [00:11:57]:
That comes to mind there is toastmasters.
Steve Swan [00:12:02]:
Oh, okay. Yeah.
Michael Krigsman [00:12:03]:
So I think that has a very good reputation. And I believe Dale Carnegie is still around because I, that I interviewed their CEO on CXOTalk years and years ago.
Steve Swan [00:12:19]:
Oh, that's very cool. I had no idea. I just think, I don't know, I'm just thinking of warren buffett, right, and thinking he's old school. So I figured dale carnegie's got to be gone. Really? I didn't even google it, you know? Didn't even google it. So toastmasters, you think?
Michael Krigsman [00:12:35]:
I think toastmasters has a really, really good reputation, but I think part of it also is just putting yourself in a position to practice. So give presentations and learn. And, you know, online now, there's so much information.
Steve Swan [00:12:52]:
Yeah. Because eventually as a leader, you're going to be asked to speak in front of groups, board of directors, investors, things like that. So you probably want to do your practice before you get to that. That's not where you want to learn. That's not where you can learn.
Michael Krigsman [00:13:08]:
No, it's definitely not where you want to learn. I mean, you, before you go speak to a potentially business changing or business altering or even life altering presentation or group, you want to be pretty clear about what you're presenting, why you're presenting it, and how you're going to make that presentation based on practice experience and the advice of other people and the feedback. And I also recommend, by the way, if you're talking about presentations, get a speech coach. I had one in the past.
Steve Swan [00:13:44]:
Really? I didn't even know that existed.
Michael Krigsman [00:13:48]:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. There are really good ones out there, too.
Steve Swan [00:13:50]:
Are there things you could point out that were particular successes when it came to communication that individuals had or things that were failures where folks might want to avoid or make sure that they avoid when it comes to either learning how to communicate or actually communicating as they're doing their thing? You know, is there anything that we should think about on the plus or minus side of that, that we should go towards or not go towards?
Michael Krigsman [00:14:17]:
Yeah, I think that the most successful communicators are folks who have a very clear understanding of what the audience wants and needs from them. So, for example, if you are making a budget pitch to your boss or to a budget committee, having a firm understanding of the budget elements, as I was saying earlier, some of this seems pretty obvious, but sometimes we forget the obvious. So having a firm understanding of the budget items within your control, that's number one. Having a very clear, firm understanding of the business trajectory. This is trickier. Where is the business strategy headed for this year? How does your budget support those business goals? See, these are the kind of questions I think that you need to start asking. What is the nature of who are you speaking with? What is their background? How technical should you be? Are you speaking to a bunch of peers who are nerds and geeks, programmers, developers, technical leaders? Then the expectation will be that there's going to be discussion of the technology aspects. Are you speaking to the board of directors? If you're speaking to the board of directors, they're going to want things really boiled down in a simple way without a lot of detail, but also making clear that you have a grasp of the subject sufficiently so that they have confidence in what you're saying.
Steve Swan [00:16:12]:
Right. In my mind, as you were talking about all that, knowing your audience and who you're talking to almost goes hand in hand. And some people may not think about it this way. I just have been with being a good listener. Right. Because when you're a good listener, you understand your audience and you know how to articulate to that individual or individuals. It's the same as knowing your audience when you're getting up to give a presentation. Right.
Steve Swan [00:16:40]:
It's you. You were a good researcher, and you're being a good listener, you know, responding to who's in front of you.
Michael Krigsman [00:16:45]:
Yeah, I think that word listening is pretty interesting because it's multidimensional. Because on the one hand, in the moment, yes. You need to be very carefully listening and parsing to what the person in front of you is saying. Go beyond that. While they're in front of you, what are their expectations of you? What's their body language? What's the vibe? Are they warm towards you? Are they nodding their head in violent agreement? Yes, they agree with you, and therefore the path you're on is right. Are they kind of, you know, shaking their head? No. These are subtle cues, sometimes not so subtle, but sometimes the cues are subtle, and that can help give you right in the moment information to help you course correct and adjust what you're saying, how you're saying it, how you're presenting it to better suit their needs. So you will be more persuasive.
Michael Krigsman [00:17:45]:
But even beyond that, listening means, before you go into that meeting, doing the research, so you know who you're talking to, what do they care about? What is their history of making decisions? All of this will help you shape your presentation. But even more importantly, if we continue to delve, if I can use one of these genai terms that comes up all the time, if we can delve into the question of listening even further. It means going further back upstream to the business strategy, having an understanding of, as I said before, where is the business going? What is leadership's expectations and how do you fit into that? So this notion of listening, you can look at on many different levels, and I can tell you the most successful executives and business leaders that I know, they do look at it at all of these levels and they're very accomplished at doing so.
Steve Swan [00:18:47]:
Yeah. So it's, you know, so just coming into a presentation of some sort as an it professional and just hammering away on what the tool's gonna look like. No, that's not how you want to do this. Right. You know, you want to think about, like you said, the business, the business objectives, you know, I call them helicopter skills, right? You got to be able to understand the technology, right. And what those folks are doing because we're technology professionals. Then helicoptering up to, to the next level, you know, roadmap strategy. Again, understanding the business, then all the way up to the next level board, you know, sea level, really understanding this.
Steve Swan [00:19:22]:
But at a 30,000 foot level, you know, and being able to articulate and explain it like that, that's kind of when I talk to folks, it's kind of how I try to explain. And again, I'm doing that just for my little head because I like to simplify everything. I like to put things in buckets and I like to just make things real digestible for myself. So, but I think that the it leader that just goes to the, to the shiny new object and stuff, that's not going to fly.
Michael Krigsman [00:19:48]:
Well, no, you know, again, it depends on the context. So, for example, if, if the meeting is about the shiny new object, then obviously you need to talk about the shiny new object. If the meeting is about the business goals and how can we support marketing or whatever it might be, then the shiny new object is a device to help you get there. It's a tool. If you talk with somebody who's building a house, say you're a contractor and or carpenter, you're going to sell your services to new homeowners. They need a kitchen. You're not going to spend a lot of time talking about the three different kinds of hammers that you can bring, and you have twelve different kinds of nails for all these different purposes. Now that's impressive, but not that useful to the homeowner who wants to know, okay, do you have the skills to do this? Can you do it within my budget? Do you have the free time in your schedule.
Michael Krigsman [00:21:01]:
Do you understand my goals? And will you reliably follow my directions and the blueprints?
Steve Swan [00:21:08]:
Right.
Michael Krigsman [00:21:09]:
You see, now, if we're having a conversation about hammers and nails, that's a different story.
Steve Swan [00:21:14]:
Sure.
Michael Krigsman [00:21:14]:
Oh, I know about ten different kinds of nails.
Steve Swan [00:21:17]:
Right? Yeah, yeah.
Michael Krigsman [00:21:19]:
So it all depends on context. And this is part of the listening that we were talking about earlier, which is understanding the context.
Steve Swan [00:21:27]:
Sure. Yeah. Yep. I have my daughter who's 21, just finishing up data science school, right. One more year. And she always talks about, she learned her python, she learned her Java, you know, and to use your example, know, I told you, you got to learn what the tools are. You got to learn about the hammer and nail right before you go and talk to the homeowner about how you can help solve their problems. So I would always tell her, you got to learn how to crawl before you walk.
Steve Swan [00:21:54]:
You got to understand what the tools are here, then you can go. Because she's like, I don't want to be behind closed doors programming. I said, no, no, no, you won't get in front of business, understand what they need and what they want, and then work with them. You understand what the tools are, you understand what the hammer and nails are, but, you know, understand what the different cabinets would do or look like or what the needs are there, those kinds of things. And it's real analogous to that in my mind.
Michael Krigsman [00:22:19]:
Yeah. I mean, look, if you are selling yourself as a programmer, you need to be really good at programming, but the focus is not the programming. The focus is the end result. What are you programming and why and whats the business outcome? And thats really the most important thing. And most of the time, Jeff.
Steve Swan [00:22:40]:
Yeah. And again, to go back to that example, she would tell me that the kids going into class would always talk about their runtime for their programs and things, and shes more wants to talk about what did we get done with that program? Okay, it went fast, but thats great that it went fast, but did it get done what it needed to get done? It could be the fastest thing in the world, but if it didn't get to your end goal, doesn't matter. So, you know, we're going through that. She's got one more year and she'll be fine. So it's just a matter of convincing her that she's not going to be sitting in a closet programming all day long. Because I said, if you're doing that, then you could be anywhere in the world, and it could pay somebody a lot less to do that halfway around the world. So you won't be doing that, you know.
Michael Krigsman [00:23:21]:
Yeah. I think this brings in the question of judgment.
Steve Swan [00:23:24]:
Yeah.
Michael Krigsman [00:23:25]:
It's not just that you're, that, you know, the technical skills. You have the technical skills, but it's having the judgment to apply those skills to the business context.
Steve Swan [00:23:38]:
Yeah. And, well, and again, to learn what the business wants and needs and how to listen to them and to hear the right cues, you got to get that exposure and you got to work your way up there, you know, so.
Michael Krigsman [00:23:52]:
Exactly.
Steve Swan [00:23:53]:
It's just a matter of all that. So. All right. Well, cool. I appreciate this. You know, I think my audience really needs to hear this, listen to this, think about this. And if nothing else, ask the questions, you know, to themselves. You know, look at yourself in the mirror and say, hey, how am I communicating? What do I need to do? Because when I get somebody ready for an interview, you know, I don't, I never tell them.
Steve Swan [00:24:14]:
We never talk about exactly what someone's going to ask. Answer like this. I have them ask the questions as to what someone's looking for and then let's talk about what you can do as far as what the goals and priorities are in that role. You know, the way I like to phrase is I get folks ready to look in the mirror and understand how they're being perceived, you know, and so that in the interview process, it's that give and take listening and then responding appropriately. Right. You know?
Michael Krigsman [00:24:42]:
Yeah. Having empathy for the person who is interviewing you, listening carefully. If the person is a business person, then you need to talk in business terms rather than technology jargon.
Steve Swan [00:25:01]:
Right.
Michael Krigsman [00:25:02]:
And this is really hard for technical people is to talk about what they do in straightforward, simple terms that somebody who is a non technologist well understand.
Steve Swan [00:25:15]:
And im sure this is not going to come as any surprise to you, Michael, I cant tell you how many times ive been doing this, 25 years, technology to biotech. How many times I get a call saying that person was great. We cannot put them in front of business. Business will shake their head and walk out of the room because theyll wonder what kind of answer theyre really getting. They wont understand what theyre saying. And no matter, most of the time, in the amount of time that im working with somebody over the course of, say, six, eight weeks, not enough time to coach that out of somebody. You know what I mean? It's just, it's innate a lot of the time. But they've got to really recognize it, look at it in the mirror, face it, and really try and tackle it.
Steve Swan [00:25:51]:
And there's some that want to do that. There's some that don't, you know? But I think this is something they need to hear. Yeah.
Michael Krigsman [00:25:58]:
I mean, it's up to each person what. What they want to do, where they want to go. Some people just simply want to be in a technical role, and that's it. But if you want to be a c level leader in a midsize company or a large company, sooner or later you need to really get a handle on both the technology, which you probably already are very good at, as well as the business dynamics. I can absolutely tell you that the best business people or the best senior leaders that I know, whether CIO's chief data officers, chief technology officers, whoever it might be, the best of them, absolutely are excellent understanding the technology and equally excellent understanding the business. And I would say that as an absolute.
Steve Swan [00:26:54]:
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Again, I've met some of those folks, too. Right. You know, well, sit down. We'll have an hour long conversation. 55, 56 minutes of it is about the business delivering as a biotech, delivering the research, the drugs to the patients, so on and so forth. The last couple minutes might be about the tool or the technology, or at least touching on it.
Steve Swan [00:27:16]:
And, you know, when I have those conversations, I'll be honest with you, I feel like my iq raises two or three points, because these folks educate me on different angles of the business and different things that I didn't know, but they became experts in it, right? And they know how to articulate that. So it's good stuff, you know?
Michael Krigsman [00:27:32]:
Well, if you are, think. Well, think about it this way. If you're speaking with somebody who is running a product line, for example, at a pharma company, whatever, you know, whether a big one or a small one, what is their primary concern? Their primary concern is the efficacy of the material, of the medication they're developing or the molecule, and their ability to make it through the regulatory process, get it into the market, and make a profit. That's what they care about. If you're the CIO, what they want and expect from you is to provide the technology and the infrastructure needed to streamline that process to the extent that's possible.
Steve Swan [00:28:30]:
Right. Make it as efficient as you can.
Michael Krigsman [00:28:33]:
And how you go about doing it. They will make the assumption that as the CIO, you know how to do that, that you will conduct the research, you have the background, you'll do the due diligence, whatever is necessary to find the right tools, to find the right infrastructure, to integrate the pieces appropriately. And yes, they'll want to know what those tools are. But the main point of conversation and focus most of the time is going to be how is this going to help me develop the molecule and get it out into the market through that long and expensive process and make money, right?
Steve Swan [00:29:14]:
Like you said, that's the bottom line. Right? And yes, and we have companies. And this, now this is just me talking. Right. But a potential CIO, being a good listener, knowing their audience, doing their homework, would know, as I would, too, through talking to these folks where they are in their life cycle. Right? Do they need somebody more focused on the sales piece? Are they about to go commercial? Right. Do they need somebody more focused on the, the research side, R and D, do they need somebody more foundational that can build up their internal infrastructure, desktops, phones, lights, whatever, you know? So there's many, many, many different kinds. But again, it comes from, like you said earlier, that, that listening, right? Research, listening, knowing your audience, that kind of thing.
Steve Swan [00:29:52]:
So it's all, it's all good. Yeah. So now do you have, do you, so my folks can look you up on CXOTalk, right? Podcast. That's your podcast, and they can look at some of these things and see who you've spoken to and kind of get some, a read on how some of these folks communicate, right?
Michael Krigsman [00:30:10]:
Yes. Go to CXOTalk.com. we do live shows. During our live shows, there is a tweet chat, and we often stream to LinkedIn. And you can actually ask questions of the guests. I mean, it's actually a tremendous opportunity for the people listening to interact very directly with the senior execs from the largest companies in the world. I mean, really, it's the top execs from the biggest companies in the world. And we create a forum where everybody can come together and you can ask your questions and they will answer, what a great resource.
Steve Swan [00:30:47]:
That's awesome. And I don't know anybody that couldn't at least gain something, learn something about their swing a little bit, something about their swing to figure out whether, you know, what they need to do or something they need to tweak, right?
Michael Krigsman [00:31:02]:
That is for sure. I mean, just go to CXOTalk.com comma, sign up for our newsletter and we'll notify you of the upcoming shows.
Steve Swan [00:31:10]:
Cool. I have one final question I ask of everybody, and I ask each guest this, and I didn't prompt you on this or anything like that. And if you watch my podcast, maybe you've seen it, maybe you haven't live music. I love live music. I like bands. I like music in general. So I always like asking my folks because it kind of strips it down right. It kind of gives you a raw question that someone's not ready for, and it gives them a little, gives the audience a little taste as to the individual that I'm talking to.
Steve Swan [00:31:37]:
Do you have any bands, either a, that you like seeing live or that you've ever seen live, that you could recall or anything that you would say, hey, that was the best concert I ever saw. And if there aren't, there aren't. But I was, like, asking for folks.
Michael Krigsman [00:31:48]:
At, oh, you know, I went to a concert at Berkeley School of Music, because, of course, you know, here I am in Boston, sure. Not too long ago, and I don't remember the guy's name. I learned about him on TikTok. I've been, I love TikTok, and I get a lot of new artists to listen to from TikTok. Lamar Lamont something. Lamont, I wish I could remember his name. And he is this soul singer, and he sings these, like, rhythm and blues, and he, like, the guy is brilliant, really. I love TikTok.
Michael Krigsman [00:32:23]:
I mean, there are so many brilliant artists. This is not directly answering your live question, but I say go to. Go to TikTok and find music. There are such talented, incredible people who.
Steve Swan [00:32:35]:
Can get exposed to a lot of stuff there. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I like seeing new bands, too. It's fun. I mean, it's great to see the stuff you like and know and trust, but at the same time, to pick up some new stuff is always fun. Cool. Well, thank Michael. Thank you very much.
Steve Swan [00:32:52]:
It was great having you. This was, this is a change of pace for me and for my audience, and I think it's something that they'll really enjoy.
Michael Krigsman [00:32:59]:
Great. Well, Steve, thank you for, for inviting me. It's been really a pleasure.