Ep. 215: Stop Losing Leads: How to Fix Your B2B Startup Positioning Architecture

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Founders think about the go to
market as a post, post activity,
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versus doing it early on, so
meaning they are really of over
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focus on technology alone and
thinking when the talk
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technology will be the product
will be launched, that's when
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the customers will come,
especially like if the founders
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are engineers or coming from the
medical background, this is the
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domain. This is where the this
is the comfort zone. So they are
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really focusing on the
technology. And that's true,
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this is like bigger competitive
advantage, but the commercial
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part, getting really early on
understanding who are the
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market, what's the feedback,
even integrating that into a
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building technology so
important.
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Most B2B tech startups hit a
wall when founder-led marketing
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stalls growth. When they analyze
where they went wrong, they
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almost always assume they have a
demand problem. But when you
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look deeper, you realize that
their real pain point lies in
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their positioning and go to
market architecture. So how can
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B2B startups fix their
positioning architecture problem
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to ignite more robust and
sustainable growth? Welcome to
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this episode of the B2B
Marketers on a Mission podcast,
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and I'm your host, Christian
Klepp, today, I'll be talking to
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Adrijana Daragon, who will be
answering this question. She's
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the founder at Go To Market
(GTM) Advantage, who helps turn
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go to market into a predictable
pipeline and revenue for B2B
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tech startups. Let's dive right
in. Okay, and off we go. I'm
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gonna say, Adrijana Daragon,
welcome to the show.
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Hello. Thank you. Thank you for
having me, Christian.
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Great to be connected again,
Adrijana. And I'm gonna say
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thank you to Anna Wondany from
Hey CMO, for connecting us. And
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I'm really looking forward to
this conversation, because we're
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going to talk about something
that, on the surface doesn't
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seem like it's extremely
important, but we're going to
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start unpacking that, and then
we'll realize like, oh, wow, we
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really should be paying
attention to this. Take some
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notes, learn and be inspired no?
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Yes, true. I'm really excited
about it, and I can see really
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quite some founders can benefit
from this knowledge.
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Absolutely, absolutely. So if
you don't mind, we'll, we'll
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just jump straight in, and I'll
ask you the first question. So
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you're, I'm going to say, on a
mission to help B2B Tech scale
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ups, grow and increase their
inbound leads. But for this
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conversation, I'd like to focus
on this following topic, and
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then we can unpack it from
there. So the topic is how B2B
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startups can fix their
positioning architecture
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problem. Now that sounds like a
really fancy marketing term, but
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we're going to unpack it now and
then everybody will realize,
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like, how crucial this actually
is. So I'm going to kick off
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this conversation with the
following question. So Adrijana,
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in our previous conversation,
you mentioned that most B2B
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startups think they have a
demand problem, but in reality,
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when you dig deeper, what they
actually have is a positioning
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and go to market architecture
problem. So can you please
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explain that?
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Sure. So it's highly depends on
the stage the startup scale up
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is it's different challenges.
There are different challenges
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at the beginning, when there is
early stage. Startup is about
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just doing different tests,
trying the founders, typically
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the one that driving the sales
and marketing efforts and
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connecting, getting the early
feedback, validating it
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afterwards, when it starts to be
already, you gain traction. You
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know, you had a successful
especially in deep tech. It's a
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lot about the pilot, securing
both successful pilots, moving
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from the pilots to for to the
ongoing client relationships.
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That's when the it's becomes
much more about challenge of not
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only trying, testing different
activities, but really seeing
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how what really makes sense,
because there are a lot of
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challenges when you have a lot
of activities, but we don't
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bring the results, we don't
bring the revenue You want, and
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that's especially when I work
with startups. When we have both
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conversations, we have the
initial demand, interest,
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especially interest. We have
those conversations with
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potential clients, however they
don't convert. And that's really
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where we are, kind of talking
about the not originally
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positioning itself a problem,
but it's also about the go to
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market. And one big mistake
clients do is when they focus on
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the target ICP (Ideal Customer
Profile), but the target ICP, it
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doesn't have a sense of urgency
to buy, so the purchasing intent
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is not there. So that's why,
like a lot of times, you have a
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lot of internet conversations,
everybody says, so your solution
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looks really interesting.
However, that doesn't result in
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result in the sales?
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Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean,
you brought some really great
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points there, and I add two
follow up questions for you. So
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I think the first one,
especially when you're talking
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about startups, and I can't help
but ask you this question, but
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do you sometimes feel when
you're interacting with your
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clients, especially when you're
trying to address these problems
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with them? Do you sometimes feel
that it's the founder that is
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the bottleneck?
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It's true as well. Like you
know, as a startup grows as
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well, the founder learns a lot,
and it's also, it's a big growth
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journey as well, big growth
journey. And as well activities
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we do. The mindset also shifts
with every stage. So there are
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like, different stages of a
company. When it's founding
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team, it's small team. When you
bring the first, highest, first
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outsource, outsourcing that
depends already, where you need
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to communicate clearly that to
delegate what you want actually
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to achieve. So these people know
your vision and goals. That's
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really when it starts to be the
first bottleneck of really
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making when you are bringing
more people, how the it can they
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can work most effectively as
well as a team?
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Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely,
absolutely. So that's, that's
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the first question. The second
question is, and I know you and
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I both know what positioning is,
but I feel for people outside
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the marketing discipline, they
throw that, that statement or
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that word around very freely. So
let's just clear the air there a
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little bit, and just please
break it down for us. What does
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positioning mean, and how is it
relevant to inbound and revenue
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and other things like that?
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I think it's there are multiple
aspects, but this positioning is
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more. What do you want to stand
in there, in in the minds of and
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hearts of other people? How do
you want to be for them? Be
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remembered so it's not only
remembered so that people can
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say and articulate also well,
what you do for yourself, uh,
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yourself. And then obviously,
ideally, that also, it's
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repeatable, that also the
clients and the rest can say,
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and that's not that easy sounds,
but it's not only one statement,
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positioning statement, and when
it's all done, positioning is a
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lot about work together, the
about the ICP and for the ICP,
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so ideal client profile? And
that's a lot about
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understanding, especially if it
is multiple industries, multiple
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especially on enterprises or
like, there are big buying
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cycles, who are the right
people. So it's a buying center.
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There are a lot of people who
are users, who are economical
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buyers, decision makers. So this
is a lot about work on this ICP
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and value propositions for each
of them will be different. So
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the positioning work also
includes this value proposition,
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especially linking what's the
value, what's the value, what
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are the problems they have, and
how you help your solution helps
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that to work. So it's like
customer centric communication
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about the solution, which is
very hard sometimes for the tech
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startups, who are typically over
investing in the technology, and
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they talk about the features,
but not so much in the customer
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language, about really deeply
understanding customer
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understanding who they are and
what they do, what are the
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problems and how it solves? And
the big missing piece, and which
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is what I have in my
methodology, where I work, and
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this is really important,
crucial part not to miss, is the
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part of when, not only who, but
then, and that when part is
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about urgency, sense of urgency.
Do does the target, ICP, know
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that we have this problem? We
are aware about it. Do they
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actively seek solutions? And you
are at this stage, at this
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stage, so because the right
person, but the wrong moment,
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zero outcome. So it's, the sale
will not be done. So it's, this
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is especially important. While a
lot of pilot conversations, like
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after discovery calls stall is
because of this that they have
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this interest. However, the
urgency is not there, and it's a
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lot in especially with good AI
solutions, or, like really
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talking about long term
innovations, because it requires
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a lot of change of the behavior
system processes, how they work
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currently, with how we do
business. Currently, be aware.
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But this is this problem. But
are we really actively looking
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to change solution? And
currently that's very important
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part of as well work of his
overall positioning, because
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that will mean otherwise, you
just have a lot of
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conversations, conversations,
and really very small amount of
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them, lead. Leading to the
really close, close deals.
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Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely,
absolutely. I like how you said,
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like, right person, wrong time,
that almost sounds like dating
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situation. It's also
transferable to the world of
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like, customers, right? And
that's absolutely true, because
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if you identify, if you identify
the right target audience, but
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this is not the right time,
right? Because it's a different
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because you always have to look
at the different stages of their
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journey, right?
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Yes.
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And unfortunately, in B2B,
whether it's tech or otherwise,
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the buyer, the buyer cycles tend
to be a bit longer, right?
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Yes.
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Absolutely so, based on what you
said, and I know you brought up
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already one of them, but like,
based on what you've said in the
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past couple of minutes, what are
some of the key pitfalls you
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would say B2B marketing teams
need to avoid, and what should
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they do instead?
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Yes, so for me, really the I see
that founders think about a go
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to market as a post, post
activity versus doing it early
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on. So meaning they are really
of over focus on technology
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alone and thinking when the talk
technology will be, the product
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will be launched, that's when
the customers will come. That's
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the one that typically,
especially like if the founders
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are engineers or coming from the
medical background. This is the
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domain. This is where they this
is the comfort zone. So they are
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really focusing on the
technology. And that's true,
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this is like bigger competitive
advantage, but the commercial
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part, getting really early on
understanding who are the
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market, what's the feedback,
even integrating that into a
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building technology so
important. So that's the common
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pitfall about starting it early.
It needs to be still very lean
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in beginning, it's more lean.
And one of the key things of
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lean activities is about
thinking who are the customers,
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exactly who are the right
customers, and then having that
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early validation. So it follows
also to the second point. So one
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was early. Think about go to
market earlier than when you
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typically do. Second is real
versus fake interest. So what I
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mean, a lot of founders live in
them more, sometimes in the
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bubble of their ecosystem,
meaning like they are get the
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early positive feedback from
incubators, accelerators they
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are in, as well the different
support groups, plus also our
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startup founder saying, Oh, your
solution. Can you give me
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feedback on your solution? Yes,
it sounds interesting. Your
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technology is really
interesting. Yeah, it should be
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interesting, and that's what we
take it as a given feedback.
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Okay, I validated. I got this
initial interest. However, this
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is not the target audience who
would actually buy so these are
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the kind of I call it a fake
validation. It's good to get
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also support system. To get
this, because it's really long
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journey entrepreneurship and
having building the startup, you
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need this support system.
However, you also need to have
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reality checks. And the reality
checks are really thinking and
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going in the market and having
conversations, if you are having
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a solution, let's say in
medtech, selling to the
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hospitals, so then going and
actually talking to you. How
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does it sound? That feed?
Obviously, it's harder to get
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into that contact. There are
some ways where we could do, do
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it, but this is really very
critical moment when you get the
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actual feedback from the person
who would will in, will be so
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valuable in creating your
product. And then also, what are
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the different criteria they look
at, what is really the what are
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the propositions we are looking
at and how we make the
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decisions, and that's very
important as well, to make sure
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that you get that early on. So
these are the few pitfalls. I
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would say.
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These are the few pitfalls, but
they are super important.
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Oh yes.
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They're so important that I have
to ask you some follow up
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questions. Okay, so based on the
first one right when you're
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talking about who are the right
customers and getting that early
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validation, how, in your
experience, is there a right way
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to get early validation?
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It's there is not only one way,
there are many, many ways, but
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it's just very important. Is
also the mindset of it's active
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listening. It's more about you
have your own idea and you're in
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love with your product. That's
why you have a startup. It's
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also very important to be open
for the feedback, and good and
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bad feedback is also very
important. So there are some a
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typically like also for the
research, where you don't guide
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the questions yes or no. You
want to dig deeper. That's also
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very important. It's more, I
think it's the mindset, where
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you go you really eager to
learn. You go there to eager to
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learn and to really listen and
to understand. That's the
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journey, when you want to
understand your potential
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client, how you can really make
the life easier. That's the way.
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It's a little beyond going
journey where it's really almost
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saying that the product market
fit happens also a very similar
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in similar time. Then you can
describe and talk the problem of
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the customer better than the
customer himself or herself. So
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that's the it's a journey so you
will but this is like really
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knowing that, that it's
important to hear from them,
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versus have only the inside
view, which is and really
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seeking those conversations and
have this open mind mindset is
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super important.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's
absolutely right. I totally
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agree with that. Okay, so that
was the first follow up
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question. The second follow up
question, which I think is so
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important, based on what you
said, this reality check, right?
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Because, you know, we, I have
some experience with this as
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well, like, you know, it's
especially talking with a
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founder, and they're in their
team, and I always, I always
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call it like the internal high
five, right? The internal High
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Five means, okay, we built a
great product. Boom, fantastic.
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And then, and then internally,
it's like, I believe the market
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needs this because of the and I
don't agree that they need this
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because of what, whatever the
reason. And everybody internally
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agrees. But you and I both know
that, as marketers, it doesn't
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help them and it doesn't help us
to just agree with a lot of
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these I'm calling them internal
hypotheses. So from your
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experience, how do you get these
startups, the founders and their
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teams to accept that while you
can have this hypothesis, you
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also need to have a proper
reality check to validate
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everything that you're saying
internally. Because sometimes as
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you, as you well, know not all
founders, but many founders. Is
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it the mindset internally is, my
baby is the most beautiful baby
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in the world. Don't you dare
insult my baby. All right. So
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how do you get them out of this
mindset? How do you get them to
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be like, okay, you know, in
order to grow, in order to
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scale, you have to be open to
validation for the market. How
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do you how do you get them? How
do you get them to that point?
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Sure, so I think here it's super
important is to have different
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people in your support system,
and very in a closed network,
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and part of the founders have
the personal network, especially
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when they or we have advisory
boards, part of a board who are
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really, typically people come
from the industries differ, or
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they have also have done the
startups. Of could be ex
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founder, founders who have
successful exits. Or it can be,
285
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especially in some specialized
tech, it can be really coming
286
00:18:20,770 --> 00:18:26,710
advisors from the industry who
really know more more about the
287
00:18:27,010 --> 00:18:31,150
target clients, what's the
problem and how and the typical
288
00:18:32,110 --> 00:18:35,530
challenges the startup can
occur, and that's very important
289
00:18:35,530 --> 00:18:40,150
about utilizing it. So it's also
up to the to the person who is
290
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if it's they have active role as
an advisor or the senior expert,
291
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:49,795
or only given a fractional,
fractional person who really can
292
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help and structure or some of go
to market is really to have this
293
00:18:57,355 --> 00:19:03,655
open dialog. So it's not about
really just exactly have this
294
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consensus, consensus atmosphere,
that it's okay. What the founder
295
00:19:09,820 --> 00:19:13,660
is saying when we would just
would work on this is it's very
296
00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:17,680
important to challenge that and
to challenge that early on,
297
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:22,180
because that's when it's really
this diversity of expertise, and
298
00:19:22,180 --> 00:19:26,740
especially this relevant
expertise, is super important to
299
00:19:26,740 --> 00:19:31,165
build around and actually
leverage in the right way,
300
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asking the big questions not
working in the silos. So it's
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more about really, that
sometimes with advisory boards,
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00:19:42,985 --> 00:19:46,285
they are more the name. It's
more for the VC (Venture
303
00:19:46,285 --> 00:19:51,325
Capital), plus also for some of
yes presentations, events, so
304
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for more of trust building.
However, it's really as well.
305
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The how I see the founders who
get much more benefit is really
306
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who use, use the senior experts
in the right way of having
307
00:20:06,730 --> 00:20:09,670
almost milestone checks really
saying this is what we are
308
00:20:09,670 --> 00:20:13,930
working on. Let's look back, and
this is why we didn't gain those
309
00:20:13,930 --> 00:20:16,735
pilots. While we did a lot of
effort, we had a lot of
310
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conversations with those
enterprises, but it doesn't go
311
00:20:20,155 --> 00:20:24,655
anywhere. Let's review that, and
it's more like bringing one
312
00:20:24,655 --> 00:20:28,735
level high of really bad view
and challenge some of the
313
00:20:28,735 --> 00:20:32,755
assumptions which were there
before.
314
00:20:33,260 --> 00:20:37,040
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely,
absolutely. And what you said is
315
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,620
also really important, getting
everybody to stop working in
316
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silos and exposing them to the
to the to the bigger ecosystem.
317
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,880
So we were talking about, like,
dealing with pushback, and
318
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,060
unfortunately, I'm going to have
to ask you for more advice on
319
00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:56,405
that, because the next question
is about something that I think
320
00:20:56,405 --> 00:20:59,585
you're very familiar with,
right? Because you're dealing
321
00:20:59,645 --> 00:21:03,605
with a lot of these B2B tech
startups. How do you deal with
322
00:21:03,605 --> 00:21:07,205
pushback from founders? You
know, when you tell them that,
323
00:21:07,205 --> 00:21:10,085
listen, you don't have a demand
problem, you have a positioning
324
00:21:10,085 --> 00:21:13,865
and go to market architecture
problem, and they look at you as
325
00:21:13,865 --> 00:21:17,765
if you're like, What are you
talking about, right? What is
326
00:21:17,765 --> 00:21:20,750
this positioning? What is this
go to market architecture? This
327
00:21:20,750 --> 00:21:24,470
sounds to me like a waste of
time, right? But how do you, how
328
00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:27,350
do you convince them that it's,
it's, in fact, in their interest
329
00:21:27,770 --> 00:21:30,230
to deal with this, and how do
you deal with that pushback?
330
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,460
Yes, it's more it's also depends
on the stage like which, how big
331
00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:39,420
it is, not over engineer some of
activities early on. So it's,
332
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,200
yes, the demand is needed. But
there's also that the big risk
333
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:48,060
is if we put especially, they
get, sometimes the funding over
334
00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:52,800
and they press P dial on
marketing budget. Advertising, I
335
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,525
have seen that and then, and
they are not very, very clear
336
00:21:57,705 --> 00:22:02,025
who are the right client, and
especially as we talked who then
337
00:22:02,325 --> 00:22:07,965
do they, and especially in a
bigger organizations targeting
338
00:22:08,145 --> 00:22:13,005
so we could really put a lot of
advertising in the right target
339
00:22:13,005 --> 00:22:18,870
audience with a wrong message,
and they could. And no surprise,
340
00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:23,190
the results don't, don't come
afterwards, the deals are not
341
00:22:23,190 --> 00:22:28,290
coming those people, they might
join your mailing list webinar,
342
00:22:28,470 --> 00:22:31,710
and that's so far as we get,
because we, most probably, we
343
00:22:31,710 --> 00:22:35,670
were just interested in what's
new out there. However, they are
344
00:22:35,670 --> 00:22:39,210
not really the right person who
in the organization deciding
345
00:22:39,210 --> 00:22:43,155
this all it is really about your
messaging didn't connect to the
346
00:22:43,155 --> 00:22:46,815
problem, and they wouldn't even
book a call afterwards with the
347
00:22:46,815 --> 00:22:51,375
sales team. So this is the way I
see it's where it's really about
348
00:22:51,375 --> 00:22:56,055
looking overall, about full
funnel, not only about saying,
349
00:22:56,235 --> 00:23:01,515
if we get big volume of people
leads, then everything will be
350
00:23:01,515 --> 00:23:07,140
okay. It's it's much more about
lower volume, but of a right,
351
00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:11,400
right leads that will create
less house, less activity.
352
00:23:11,460 --> 00:23:16,620
Because you can, you can really
mistake a lot of activity will
353
00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:20,220
give a lot of good results. It's
more sometimes really stripping
354
00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:23,340
down, seeing really what's
working. And it requires
355
00:23:23,340 --> 00:23:27,105
somebody who would understand
that really looking at the data,
356
00:23:27,225 --> 00:23:32,205
looking what, what are the
different tests? What resonates?
357
00:23:32,505 --> 00:23:35,805
This is the stage when you
typically did some tests. Early
358
00:23:35,805 --> 00:23:38,745
on, you are still at the stage
of trying and working and
359
00:23:38,745 --> 00:23:42,405
understanding, but at the stage
when you did some now it's a
360
00:23:42,405 --> 00:23:46,425
time to really look at it review
and see where you double down
361
00:23:46,665 --> 00:23:49,170
and what you don't focus on.
It's always, I think it's in
362
00:23:49,650 --> 00:23:52,890
sales and marketing is a lot
about where do you put
363
00:23:52,890 --> 00:23:59,970
priorities? Where do you focus
on and more, I think sometimes
364
00:23:59,970 --> 00:24:04,650
less the activities, but really,
very clearly, can really
365
00:24:04,650 --> 00:24:10,710
simplify also the team effort to
get into those deals, because
366
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:14,595
sometimes the deals had stalled
in the middle, but you didn't
367
00:24:14,595 --> 00:24:17,535
have time because you were so
busy. But if you would take time
368
00:24:17,775 --> 00:24:21,615
review it, maybe adjust the
positioning, and then revive the
369
00:24:21,615 --> 00:24:28,155
conversation that could lead to
this, to the to big ticket or
370
00:24:28,155 --> 00:24:33,075
deal, and that will will be much
more important, versus doing
371
00:24:33,495 --> 00:24:34,995
extra trials on marketing.
372
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,320
That's exactly it. And you, I
think you hit on something that
373
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,240
is worth repeating. It's also a
lot about the strategy, right?
374
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,100
Like a lot of a lot of startups
that I've seen, they jump
375
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:50,800
straight into the execution,
right? Like you talked about it,
376
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,880
like ads and then and lead
generation. And I'm not saying
377
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,000
that those things are not
important. They are, but if you
378
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,500
don't have that understanding.
Who the target audience is, and
379
00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:05,100
you don't have a strategy in
terms of, like, how you're going
380
00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:07,620
to approach the market, you're
just going to be burning through
381
00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:11,760
money. And you and I both know
how much ads cost, and if you
382
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,540
don't know what you're doing,
it's like a vacuum cleaner now.
383
00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:21,740
But you touched on something
that I think it's worth
384
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,300
revisiting and going back to,
because it's again. I know it
385
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:29,240
might sound a bit repetitive,
but why is it so important for
386
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,120
them to understand, or have a
deep understanding about who
387
00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:35,720
this potential customer is?
Right? Why is it important for
388
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,200
them to know that, and why is it
important for them to understand
389
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,620
the buyer's journey? Because,
you know, depending on what
390
00:25:41,620 --> 00:25:44,500
stage of the journey these
people are in, they may have
391
00:25:44,500 --> 00:25:47,560
different motivations, or they
may have different reasons for
392
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:49,060
looking for a product or
solution.
393
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:56,320
I think it's, it's really
important. That will make or
394
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:03,460
break your traction and more,
and that's really the part of
395
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,960
understanding and speaking in
about the customer, sometimes
396
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,140
even better than the customer
themselves. Makes the customer
397
00:26:11,140 --> 00:26:14,965
really feel you understand you
are credible, you build... I can
398
00:26:14,965 --> 00:26:19,165
trust you. And that's really it
says speed dial. It's a speed
399
00:26:19,165 --> 00:26:24,925
dial to really, to retraction,
to really, this is what is
400
00:26:24,925 --> 00:26:31,585
important part is to especially
in B2B, you, it's building
401
00:26:31,585 --> 00:26:36,370
credibility and trust so that
you really know, yes, you have a
402
00:26:36,370 --> 00:26:41,530
great credentials in terms of a
technology that your solution.
403
00:26:41,530 --> 00:26:46,330
That's important part. However,
the equally is also important,
404
00:26:46,750 --> 00:26:52,330
the the understanding
commercially how this technology
405
00:26:52,330 --> 00:26:57,250
can help your customers. It's
really about your customers,
406
00:26:57,250 --> 00:27:02,155
especially when we talk about
you, mentioned about buying
407
00:27:02,155 --> 00:27:05,455
centers and complex
organizations. That's when it's
408
00:27:05,455 --> 00:27:12,835
really thereby. It's a lot about
reducing risks. It's a lot about
409
00:27:13,015 --> 00:27:19,495
minimizing transition costs. So
it's more about that you are not
410
00:27:19,555 --> 00:27:24,940
really too risky for them to to
buy from. And this is it goes
411
00:27:24,940 --> 00:27:27,700
beyond the technology. It's a
lot about understanding and
412
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:30,460
talking in the language of a
customer that you have
413
00:27:30,460 --> 00:27:34,660
discovered very clearly, very
proactively, in first, in your
414
00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:37,300
mind, when afterwards, all your
communication. And this is where
415
00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:42,580
it comes the strategy is super
important. But I see it's it's
416
00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:44,785
not a strategy where you need
just a document, somebody
417
00:27:44,785 --> 00:27:48,985
quickly did it, or like now,
it's the AI or somebody out of
418
00:27:48,985 --> 00:27:53,545
touch. It requires, as well,
real validation. So that's where
419
00:27:53,545 --> 00:27:57,385
it's important. The strategy
with validation, which is not on
420
00:27:57,385 --> 00:28:02,305
paper document, it's really
about kind of almost agreement
421
00:28:02,305 --> 00:28:05,485
of what's the core, or what's
the core, what we are doing,
422
00:28:05,845 --> 00:28:08,890
trying to achieve, and how the
way we trying to achieve that.
423
00:28:09,130 --> 00:28:12,970
So this helps you, is for the
founder, for the rest of the
424
00:28:12,970 --> 00:28:15,970
team, and then we are talking
about gaining traction, bring
425
00:28:15,970 --> 00:28:20,290
the rest of together. The
strategy changes over time. Some
426
00:28:20,290 --> 00:28:23,710
elements the market also
adjusts. Technologies adjust,
427
00:28:23,710 --> 00:28:31,150
but this is super important part
of stop wasting time on of doing
428
00:28:31,210 --> 00:28:36,535
too many activities and really
looking at what, what really
429
00:28:36,535 --> 00:28:38,455
will move a needle.
430
00:28:39,295 --> 00:28:43,555
Wait a second, you mean that the
strategy has to be adjusted. I
431
00:28:43,555 --> 00:28:46,435
thought the strategy is just
something you do one time and
432
00:28:46,435 --> 00:28:47,815
then you forget about it.
433
00:28:49,435 --> 00:28:52,855
I think it's that's why, that's
what this gets a lot of times. I
434
00:28:52,855 --> 00:28:57,760
think it's as well in a tech
companies, they do especially
435
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,120
early stages that pitch
documents thinking overall,
436
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,900
that's the part of saying what's
addressable market. So say we
437
00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:07,960
did, we have our covered. I have
our go to market. We have our
438
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,180
plan. That's it's great. It
gives us some of her some it's
439
00:29:13,420 --> 00:29:17,605
already good starting points,
but there is much more on that.
440
00:29:17,785 --> 00:29:23,365
It's really ongoingly effort,
and that's why it's why there
441
00:29:23,365 --> 00:29:27,925
are really the teams who
succeed. Is really the founder,
442
00:29:27,985 --> 00:29:32,005
is leading the sales and
marketing organization. And then
443
00:29:32,005 --> 00:29:36,565
they are, they are close to the
customer. So it's not only to
444
00:29:36,565 --> 00:29:39,565
the product, but we need to be
close to the customer. And then
445
00:29:39,565 --> 00:29:43,510
they are like, really bridge,
bridging the gaps as well as we
446
00:29:43,510 --> 00:29:46,510
go, because it's also the
different challenges. But being
447
00:29:46,510 --> 00:29:49,870
close to the customer and
hearing that and not working in
448
00:29:49,870 --> 00:29:52,330
a silo and bringing back that
knowledge is super important.
449
00:29:53,050 --> 00:29:56,770
And so it's that document
changes a lot of times. It's,
450
00:29:57,190 --> 00:30:00,610
it's, can be, it's not 180
story. It's. Sometimes it will
451
00:30:00,610 --> 00:30:03,610
be big pivots. There are pivots
as well. You scrap your current
452
00:30:03,610 --> 00:30:07,795
product, and you see that some
of the one leg can really move
453
00:30:09,115 --> 00:30:12,955
forward, like there are examples
like Spotify, and I was wherever
454
00:30:12,955 --> 00:30:19,135
I started and they landed. But
this is moving. It's a moving
455
00:30:19,195 --> 00:30:22,315
piece, not one set in stone
piece.
456
00:30:22,315 --> 00:30:29,740
Right. So I think for this next
question, if you really want to
457
00:30:29,740 --> 00:30:32,740
get very deep, it will take us
several hours to talk about it,
458
00:30:32,740 --> 00:30:36,040
but just in the interest of
time, maybe you can just give us
459
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,680
a top level perspective, right?
Just based on your own
460
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,300
experience, walk us through how
the B2B startups should fix
461
00:30:43,300 --> 00:30:46,120
their positioning, go to market
architecture problems. So just
462
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,585
give us the key steps. What are
the key components that need to
463
00:30:49,585 --> 00:30:50,665
be in that process?
464
00:30:51,385 --> 00:30:57,385
I think it's in beginning,
especially it's important of
465
00:30:58,765 --> 00:31:04,765
looking at and picking one
target customer. So one
466
00:31:04,765 --> 00:31:08,545
industry, one target customer,
thinking about your resources.
467
00:31:08,605 --> 00:31:12,325
It's a lot about your resources,
especially a lot of technologies
468
00:31:12,370 --> 00:31:15,730
are agnostic. So that's the
typical pitfall of saying it's
469
00:31:15,730 --> 00:31:20,770
for everyone, but it's almost
for nobody, really. So it's
470
00:31:20,770 --> 00:31:27,550
about picking one of the
customer target, and that's
471
00:31:27,550 --> 00:31:31,630
typically comes either which one
you are familiar with, where you
472
00:31:31,630 --> 00:31:36,775
come, come from, or you have
great access to as well. So it's
473
00:31:37,135 --> 00:31:41,935
really there. You can see it's
it helps you to validate early,
474
00:31:41,935 --> 00:31:47,155
to get access to real people,
talk to them, to see, to see, to
475
00:31:47,155 --> 00:31:52,975
get that feedback, fine tune and
not over developer MVP (Minimum
476
00:31:52,975 --> 00:31:58,015
Viable Product). MVP like the
first products a lot of times as
477
00:31:58,015 --> 00:32:02,620
well, because that's really what
we talked that it comes together
478
00:32:03,220 --> 00:32:06,940
together, that MVP, it will be
most of the times. You will
479
00:32:06,940 --> 00:32:12,460
scratch it. You will build a
next level moving forward. But
480
00:32:12,460 --> 00:32:19,540
this will help you to launch,
launch, and iterate faster and
481
00:32:19,540 --> 00:32:23,065
not always spend time. There is
a difference in deep tech. It
482
00:32:23,065 --> 00:32:26,605
takes time, sometimes 10 years,
10 years based on the research.
483
00:32:26,725 --> 00:32:32,065
So there are nuances as well. So
it's not there as well, but this
484
00:32:32,065 --> 00:32:36,025
is very important part of
narrowing the focus in beginning
485
00:32:36,565 --> 00:32:41,965
will help you to grow, to go
faster, to go faster and to
486
00:32:41,965 --> 00:32:47,590
really get the right right
customers. And this, it's very
487
00:32:47,590 --> 00:32:54,970
important for the to validate
that with few customers, not
488
00:32:54,970 --> 00:33:00,070
only one, to really see if it is
a scalable solution. So hence,
489
00:33:00,070 --> 00:33:04,390
we talking about the depth and
breadth of a customer early on.
490
00:33:04,750 --> 00:33:09,655
So here we are talking about
because sometimes here the risk
491
00:33:09,655 --> 00:33:14,695
is of choosing one customer.
It's almost fully designing it
492
00:33:14,695 --> 00:33:18,595
for that customer, to the point
that is almost only relevant to
493
00:33:18,595 --> 00:33:23,095
that customer based on their
requirements. So it's seeing how
494
00:33:23,095 --> 00:33:27,295
you could leverage that pilot
that you can really also offer
495
00:33:27,295 --> 00:33:30,175
to others afterwards, how? So
it's really things are thinking
496
00:33:30,175 --> 00:33:34,240
about the pilot in the right
way, and here it's so it's more
497
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,980
about who would be the few
clients and how deep you can go.
498
00:33:38,980 --> 00:33:44,740
So for the pilots it can help
you land in those companies. But
499
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,360
afterwards, how you can move
from the pilots to the full full
500
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,500
projects, which we pay the
bigger, bigger school projects.
501
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,325
So this is the important I
think, in a short period of
502
00:33:57,325 --> 00:33:59,905
time, I think that's the
important part of thinking about
503
00:33:59,905 --> 00:34:04,285
how you could get this early
traction, and the early traction
504
00:34:04,285 --> 00:34:07,465
which is scalable. So these are
fundamentals of thinking of
505
00:34:07,465 --> 00:34:11,305
okay, when you have this in the
right way, then you see this
506
00:34:11,305 --> 00:34:14,725
breadth and depth of the
customers, which you prove the
507
00:34:14,725 --> 00:34:18,910
point with, multiple of the
customers. Then we got the
508
00:34:18,910 --> 00:34:21,610
feedback from the right
customers. Helps you to grow
509
00:34:21,610 --> 00:34:22,810
faster. Moving on.
510
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,860
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I
love how you also led with,
511
00:34:26,860 --> 00:34:30,580
like, narrowing the focus. And I
think that's so important. A lot
512
00:34:30,580 --> 00:34:33,700
of these, a lot of startups like
you said, like, Okay, this is,
513
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,760
this is for, you know, different
different verticals, or the, you
514
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,760
know, we have customers in
different industries, but in the
515
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,240
beginning, if you, if you have
that mindset, and you approach
516
00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:45,985
the market that way, and I think
you brought it up earlier on in
517
00:34:45,985 --> 00:34:49,585
the conversation, you start to
spread yourself so thin. And a
518
00:34:49,585 --> 00:34:53,905
lot of these startups don't have
500 employees, right? So, you
519
00:34:53,905 --> 00:34:58,165
know, it's a handful of people,
if they're, if there's 10 people
520
00:34:58,165 --> 00:35:00,685
in the startup, that's already
like, wow, I. Right? But
521
00:35:00,685 --> 00:35:02,785
there's, there's only a few
people, and especially there's
522
00:35:02,785 --> 00:35:06,685
only a few people responsible
for business, right, and client
523
00:35:06,685 --> 00:35:09,310
acquisition. So if you start
already in the beginning,
524
00:35:09,310 --> 00:35:13,270
spreading them so thin, how are
you ever going to scale, right?
525
00:35:15,190 --> 00:35:20,230
Yeah, okay, fantastic. But okay,
so maybe this is a question that
526
00:35:20,590 --> 00:35:23,710
you probably know the answer to.
But I think it's really
527
00:35:23,710 --> 00:35:26,170
important to put it into
context, because when you say,
528
00:35:26,170 --> 00:35:31,030
narrow the focus, how do you get
startups to narrow the focus,
529
00:35:31,075 --> 00:35:33,835
especially when they say, well,
we built this tool, and it's for
530
00:35:33,835 --> 00:35:37,975
different industries. How do you
get them and especially because
531
00:35:37,975 --> 00:35:40,555
there's a lot of people on
LinkedIn saying, oh, narrowing
532
00:35:40,555 --> 00:35:44,035
the focus. That's, that's lazy
advice. I disagree with that, by
533
00:35:44,035 --> 00:35:47,695
the way, but, um, but how do you
get them to narrow the focus?
534
00:35:47,695 --> 00:35:51,955
How do you get them to just zero
in on one particular vertical.
535
00:35:52,615 --> 00:35:58,420
So here, I can give a few
examples. I think it is here.
536
00:35:58,780 --> 00:36:03,460
It's really depends on, on, also
the industry. How narrow is the
537
00:36:03,460 --> 00:36:03,880
narrow?
538
00:36:03,940 --> 00:36:04,660
Absolutely.
539
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:07,720
So typically, my advice would
be, you think that you are
540
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:09,460
narrow, go even further.
541
00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:10,720
Okay.
542
00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:15,640
Go fever further, because it's
not only the big industries, but
543
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,760
who are within the industries.
And specifically, if you are
544
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:24,640
saying, let's say it's
technology solution. Technology
545
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,600
solution of improving the
productivity. And you care for
546
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,720
enterprises. That's typically a
lot of enterprises, but if you
547
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:35,305
choose one specific industry,
saying these are the typically
548
00:36:35,365 --> 00:36:39,565
processes they have to improve,
okay? But then there are a lot
549
00:36:39,565 --> 00:36:44,725
of teams, and within the teams,
there are also the hierarchy, so
550
00:36:44,725 --> 00:36:49,225
understanding really more
specific use cases. So that's
551
00:36:49,285 --> 00:36:52,945
the typical way of thinking
about where are the few use
552
00:36:52,945 --> 00:36:59,530
cases where you could really
solve really well, and sometimes
553
00:36:59,530 --> 00:37:03,250
they come as exactly because you
had the access to the market you
554
00:37:03,310 --> 00:37:07,210
can really have it's easier for
you. It's more accessible,
555
00:37:08,290 --> 00:37:11,710
accessible one. But it's also
looking if it is, can be
556
00:37:11,710 --> 00:37:14,950
repeatable, repeatable, that
there are various potential as
557
00:37:14,950 --> 00:37:21,490
well, moving forward, moving
forward, forward. So there it's,
558
00:37:22,855 --> 00:37:27,115
it's, I think people are very
scared, and other founders I
559
00:37:27,115 --> 00:37:31,675
work with of being too narrow,
too narrow, but exactly as we
560
00:37:31,675 --> 00:37:37,075
talk about, it's very small
team. It's better to have 10
561
00:37:37,135 --> 00:37:41,215
earlier, like pilots, but it's
really been closed and you have
562
00:37:41,935 --> 00:37:48,460
strong learnings versus 100 of
nice to have conversations and
563
00:37:48,460 --> 00:37:52,900
maybe few, but never really even
have use cases closed in the
564
00:37:52,900 --> 00:37:58,420
multiple, multiple areas. This
is where, like it happens that
565
00:38:00,820 --> 00:38:05,440
that going narrow. It really
helps. And in in some very niche
566
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,645
already, solutions like
robotics, for the specific area,
567
00:38:10,705 --> 00:38:15,865
it takes really time as well to
solve any problem, learn really
568
00:38:15,925 --> 00:38:19,405
depth about the customer. So you
cannot spread yourself too thin
569
00:38:19,405 --> 00:38:23,665
on many, customers there. So the
time in deep tech it takes to
570
00:38:23,665 --> 00:38:26,365
solve the problem, this is the
especially I recommend in deep
571
00:38:26,425 --> 00:38:30,550
tech, very specific area to get
the traction it's really
572
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:35,290
important to get it's a narrow
one, because this is where you
573
00:38:35,290 --> 00:38:40,390
invested a lot in the research a
young competitive also
574
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:44,110
differentiation on what's the
technology so it's better
575
00:38:44,110 --> 00:38:48,790
solving really, truly well for
amount of customers, and that's
576
00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:56,695
really the build up, versus of
going broad and losing this even
577
00:38:56,695 --> 00:38:59,035
the trust and credibility in the
market.
578
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:02,960
Absolutely, absolutely. You
know, as you were explaining
579
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,480
this, which I think you
explained really well, it almost
580
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,840
sounds like you have to get them
to conduct an experiment. You
581
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,120
remember, back in the school
days, we were conducting
582
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,120
experiments, and then we have to
record the results, right? And
583
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,660
then, okay, what worked, what
didn't work? Okay, what worked,
584
00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:23,705
scale, what didn't work, stop,
right? Or, or pivot, yeah,
585
00:39:23,705 --> 00:39:26,705
change the approach, right? We
have to find out why didn't it
586
00:39:26,705 --> 00:39:29,645
work? Right? What were the
reasons? What was the feedback?
587
00:39:29,705 --> 00:39:32,525
Right? So it's almost like, it's
almost like you have to have
588
00:39:32,525 --> 00:39:36,005
this experimental slash growth
mindset.
589
00:39:36,425 --> 00:39:38,885
Yes, yes. That's very important.
I think it's this growth
590
00:39:38,885 --> 00:39:43,145
mindset. It's really there you
are. It's continuous iteration
591
00:39:43,385 --> 00:39:48,950
and learning. It's learning as
well. It's also about asking the
592
00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:53,570
questions, being in the asking
the questions, having a not this
593
00:39:53,570 --> 00:39:59,210
paralysis of no action. So you
need to have the action for your
594
00:39:59,270 --> 00:40:02,990
actions, but the also thinking
about, what is it behind? What
595
00:40:02,990 --> 00:40:06,230
would really we need to do to
make this pilot successful?
596
00:40:06,470 --> 00:40:09,455
What, and also, when you are
talking with a customer early
597
00:40:09,455 --> 00:40:14,075
on, on the pilot, super
important is to ask, what needs
598
00:40:14,075 --> 00:40:17,855
to happen in this pilot. What
are the success criteria for us
599
00:40:17,855 --> 00:40:24,035
to move from the pilot to the
full project afterwards. So
600
00:40:24,035 --> 00:40:27,995
that's the one like it helps
tech as well to structure this
601
00:40:28,175 --> 00:40:33,200
experiments in the right way, in
the right way, versus just when
602
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,160
you are spreading to fin, you
almost show the demo. Demos,
603
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,360
give the solution, and then
leaving the customer almost
604
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,040
alone. So you didn't give full,
full effort in those pilots as
605
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,600
well to get the right even the
data behind.
606
00:40:51,980 --> 00:40:56,120
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Adrijana, this was such a great
607
00:40:56,165 --> 00:40:59,045
conversation, and you know,
thank you so much for coming on
608
00:40:59,045 --> 00:41:01,745
and sharing your expertise and
experience with the listeners.
609
00:41:01,925 --> 00:41:05,105
So please give us a quick
introduction and how people out
610
00:41:05,105 --> 00:41:07,685
there can get in touch with you,
especially if they're in the B2B
611
00:41:07,685 --> 00:41:11,285
Tech or health startup space in
Switzerland and Europe.
612
00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:20,360
Yes, sure. So I am go to market
advisor and fractional CMO, or
613
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,940
Chief Revenue Officer for B2B
tech companies. I'm based in
614
00:41:25,940 --> 00:41:32,300
Switzerland. I operate with many
European and also US companies
615
00:41:32,540 --> 00:41:37,325
who typically are still at the
stage of founder led sales and
616
00:41:37,325 --> 00:41:41,825
marketing activities. And I
support them, moving from heavy
617
00:41:41,825 --> 00:41:47,405
activity random sales to
repeatable way of winning deals.
618
00:41:48,485 --> 00:41:53,945
And my company is called go to
market advantage. So go to
619
00:41:53,945 --> 00:42:00,410
gtmadvantage.ch you can find
also resources there as quick
620
00:42:00,410 --> 00:42:04,670
diagnostic tool as well. So it's
a three five minutes tool for
621
00:42:04,670 --> 00:42:09,230
them as well to get some of the
low hanging fruits, what
622
00:42:09,230 --> 00:42:12,890
typically go to market
challenges they have, and it
623
00:42:12,890 --> 00:42:19,730
gives them as well, some advice.
And I'm happy to also, yes,
624
00:42:19,850 --> 00:42:22,850
share more of the discovery
calls.
625
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,080
Fantastic, fantastic, and we'll
be sure to put a link in the
626
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,600
show notes when this episode
comes out. So once again.
627
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,480
Adrijana, thanks so much for
your time. Take care, stay safe
628
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:32,320
and talk to you soon.
629
00:42:32,375 --> 00:42:33,095
Thank you.