"The Dangerous Shore" - Sara Vladic

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We all owe them, but very few of us know them.
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They are the men and women of our military and
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first responder communities, and these are their stories.
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American Warrior Radio is on the air. Welcome to American
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Warrior Radio, Ladies and gentlemen. This is Ben Bulergarcio, our
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guest today, is a New York Times bestselling author and
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award winning documentary filmmaker. She's considered one of the foremost
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experts on the USS Indianapolis. In fact, because of her
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work on that story, the survivors of that tragedy invited
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her to serve as our official storyteller and named her
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an honorary survivor. Sarah came highly recommended to us by
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Paul Leffler, a radio colleague of mine and host of
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Hometown Hero Show. And if Paul recommends you in my book,
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you're golden. However, I can honestly say I was not
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prepared when I cracked the cover of Sarah's book, The
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Danger Sure, five hundred and fourteen pages detailing the stories
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of unknown heroes that protected the homeland during the Second
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World War. A longtime fan of World War Two history,
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I can honestly say it's one of the best and
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most enjoyable books I've read, and I can't wait for
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her to share some of these stories with you. Sarah Bladdock,
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Welcome to American Warrior Radio.
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Thank you for having me, Ben and Paul. Is fantastic.
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And by the way, it's it's over six hundred pages
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if you add in all the notes and the references too.
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But dred four and folks, don't let that dissuade you.
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It's a wonderful, wonderful read. Very almost reads like a novel. Sarah.
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You I mean your book Indianapolis is considered by many
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to be the authoritative book on that naval tragedy and
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the product of, namely a lifelong fascination. What brought a
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thirteen year old girl to be so fascinated by the
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story of a World War two heavy cruiser.
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You know, Ben, I think it was, honestly, the fact
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that there was not anything about it. We didn't learn
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anything about it in school. The teachers knew nothing about it.
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I had first heard about it when I was watching
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the documentary with my dad about World War Two, and
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it was reduced to a single line. It was essentially
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it was the ship that carried the bomb helped end
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the war and it sunk. And for me, it was like, well,
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that's a true story. What like how that seems pretty
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important to be reduced to a single line. So I
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think the very beginning, when I was a kid, it
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was the mystery and why hasn't this been told? And
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you know, I went to the library and this was
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before internet, you know, like that dates me, but there
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really wasn't anything about it. And I thought, oh, cool,
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someone will tell that story someday, having no idea where
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that would lead me, you know, seven years later.
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Do you have a military in your family? Sure?
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I do. Actually, my grandfather, my uncle's all served. My
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grandfather was in World War Two. And connection I found
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after I started researching Indianapolis was that he actually was
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the dentist that took care of the Indianapolis crew right
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before they left at Mare Island.
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Wow.
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And so it was kind of a neat connection to
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find in the middle of the research of that story.
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So you went from the middle of the Pacific Ocean
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to the home front. What was your inspiration for sitting
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down and writing The Dangerous Shore.
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Well, it didn't start as The Dangerous Shore. It didn't
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start quite as you know as it ended up. But
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there was two parts to that. The first part was
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the fact that a good friend of mine, his name
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is Kirk Wolfinger. You know, I had just finished Indianapolis.
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I was on the book tour with Lynn, and Kirk said, Hey,
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I have this other story about a World War two
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ship that is similar in how it ended with Indianapolis.
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It was an injustice and we're talking about Eagle fifty six,
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world War One subchaser. So you know, Kirk was like, hey,
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you know, you wrote one book about this, you should
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write another one about the same kind of thing. And
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that's that was kind of the inception point. But then,
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remember I had spent you know, at this point, geez,
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like fifteen years with Indianapolis families and you know, the
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lost at Sea families, and really had grown this appreciation
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and respect for the ones who didn't come home and
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for their spouses and for what was happening on the
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home front this whole time. So I felt like I
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know nothing about those that were staying home what they did,
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and it kind of grew from there. So that was
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the very beginning, and as you know, a lot of
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storylines came together and all these things took place to
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make it the dangerous shore. But that was where my
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heart was in the whole thing, was that no one
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told the home front story really that I had, you know,
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I mean there had been pieces of it, but not
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in the way of the way that it needed to
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be done and deserved to be done. And it kind
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of grew from that.
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And I agree with you. I love reading world wartory history,
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and it seems like beyond Rosie the Riveter, there's just
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not a lot of references to just the you know,
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the massive effort that was involved in winning this. And
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to be honest with you, Sarah, until I read your book,
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I was not even aware that the threat to the
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homeland was that serious. I mean, You've got German u
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boats sailing within view of the lights of Norfolk, you know,
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they could they could throw a rock at it almost.
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So sunbathers watching it happen. I mean, to me, that
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was so wild to think fifty thousand people were on
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Norfolk Beach, you know, and watching a ship explode, Like, what,
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how do I not? How did I never hear about that?
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Yeah? Good point. It's six hundred pages in total, you know,
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if one includes the notes and how long did you work,
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because I mean the detail on the research, Sarah, that
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you must have done is astounding. How long did this
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project take?
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It was about three and a half years of research
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and a kind of overlap about two years of writing,
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so it took quite a while. And then also kind
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of right before it was due the first time it was,
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I received probably around twelve thousand pages of material that
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I had requested Don Foyer requests for eighteen months earlier.
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So that changed everything. So it kind of did an
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upheaval of like, okay, we're going back to the drawing board,
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and these two particular storylines really were altered by that
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new information that hadn't been seen in more than eighty years.
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So one thing that what were your sources? I assume
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there's FBI reports, you know, military reports, all this stuff,
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and then probably some family members or survivors themselves still around.
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Yes, definitely what I really wanted to do, because as
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you know, there's quite a few World War Two books
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is I really wanted to take the personal stories that
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existed in the you know, the treasure chess, the photo albums,
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the diaries, the handwritten letters, and say how much validity
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is there to what this person wrote down. So I
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started with the human element and then said, okay, I'm
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going to go to Naval Archives, I'm going to go
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to the National Archives. I'm going to go to the FB.
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I'm going to go to the records and go you know,
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the academic route to back up those personal stories, because
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as we know, fish gets bigger over eighty years. So
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I had to say, well, did this really happen the
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way they say it here? Did this? You know, this
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was this person the hero? They said they were that
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kind of thing. And then, honestly, like the local librarians
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at my junior college helped me track down books that
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were written during World War two, not after, but during,
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and those are out of print and have been out
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of print for quite some time. And that was a
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treasure chest because it was you know, someone had written
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it in nineteen forty one forty two, and then it
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kind of got lost to time, and so it was
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this untapped treasure of what happened in that moment before
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we had you know, revisionism, or well we had opinions
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or editorialization later to kind of change what that narrative was.
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I'm curious. So you're a historian, and you you deal
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with facts, but growing those facts into a story. I mean,
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so you have to. I'm guessing you were not sitting
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in that U boat off the coast of Norfolk, so
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you had to be imaginative and writing the dialogue, if
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you will, and some of you know, adding actual life
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to the characters. To me, that's why it reads almost
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like a like a novel. I don't know, is it
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a novel or I mean, it's.
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You know, what's wild?
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Is that?
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So in addition to all those written accounts, two major
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things were available. One was the friend who actually introduced
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me to the story. Kirk has interviews with the U
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boat captains going all the way back to the early eighties.
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So these dialogue moments and these things that are described
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are actually the words from those individuals. I did not
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make that up. I did not fabricate those those descriptions.
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Same with the FBI material with one of the storylines
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with the Double Agents. They tapped her apartment and her
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every living space that she was in workspace was tapped
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with both film cameras and audio, so they recorded her
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life and all the meetings she had with the spies
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for a year and a half and I have all
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those transcripts, so every detail that's there is actually from
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an eyewitness. So yeah, it was kind of really cool
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to be able to use that and build this world
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that really did exist and I didn't have to make
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anything up.
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Very very cool, ladies and gentlemen. You probably don't think
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of Meyer Lansky, Lucky Luciano, and Bugsy Siegel as war heroes,
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but we come back. Sarah's going to enlighten you a
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little bit. You can check out more was it Sarah
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Laddock dot com, s A R A V L A
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d C dot com. Don't forget. You can find this
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in over six hundred archive podcasts at American Warrior Radio
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dot com. We'll also stream on the most recent episodes
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on all major podcasting for platforms. Stick around, We'll be
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right back. Welcome back to American Warrior Radio. Laser Gentlemen,
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Ben Viila Garcia talking with Sarah Laddock. Sarah's got a
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book out called The Dangerous Shore. That's the short title,
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but it basically examines the unheralded home front heroes that
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protected the homefront during World War Two, particularly in the
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early days of the war when Sarah we just we
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weren't prepared. And that's a whole nother discussion as far
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as the isolations goes and Charles Lindberg and you know,
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all those types of folks. But I tell you what
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really hooked me was the mafia and the role that
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the American mafia, the positive role that American mafia played
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in protecting the home front. And I'm curious, did you
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ever find out. I mean, I would have loved to
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have been in that meeting when a bunch of folks
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are sitting around an office and someone says, hey, let's
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bring me a mafia on board. Yeah, that's the ticket.
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I mean, that seems like maybe not a kind of
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a jump.
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Yeah. Well, it was really interesting because in the sixties
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an investigation was done about this whole thing. And you
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know that's not that part's not included in the book.
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But what happened through that investigation was these transcripts, these
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interviews with all the members of the naval intelligence community
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and the mafia who were involved. They actually sat down
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and interviewed these folks and that's where I got the
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dialogue and whatnot. But the inception of it was with
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a man named Haffenden, and you know, he was embedded
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in that waterfront scene in the fact that he saw
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what was going on. They tried to talk to the
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mob about other things. They tried you know, the longshoreman
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if you will. Well, they weren't calling them the mob then,
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but they were trying to talk to these individuals and
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were stonewalled at every corner. And he said, well, the
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only way we're going to get information, the only way
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this is going to happen, is if we actually work
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with them, find a way to work with them. Now.
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On the other hand, the mob was kind of working
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their own angle with this too, so it was kind
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of like this came you know, the symbiotic relationship came
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together and allowed this to happen. But the meetings were
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initially like we have hit a wall. There's nothing we
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can do. We got to figure out something, and it
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kind of grew from that.
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And the ports obviously were important because of sabotage of
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you know, spies coming in, infiltrators, all kinds of I mean,
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the ports were it was critical that those be protected,
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and the Intelligence Service and the law enforcement FBI, everybody
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knew what was happening, right, they had to have their
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finger on the pulse there, so they they really they
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needed very much.
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Well, it was I think, if it wasn't the biggest,
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it was like second largest place of where everything went through,
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where all our war industry went through, our resources went through.
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Before they went overseas to our troops, they had to
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go through New York for the most part. So if
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that was taken out, or if you know, a labor
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strike happened, if something of that nature were to get
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in the way, it could have delayed those resources, that
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could have done a lot of things that didn't allow
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them to get to the warfront. So New York was
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key in that. And because of the mafia, there were
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no labor strikes the entire war. You know, that's that's
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pretty impressive, you know, for all the inner fighting there was,
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they all agreed that that should not happen.
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And yeah, that's what I shouldn't make light of it,
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but it kind of made me smile from you know,
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going into and busting up you know, Nazi supporter rallies
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to uh, you know, making sure there's no strikes. And
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my understanding is that maybe you know, a few enemy
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informants disappeared. Who knows what happened right, But that so
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that but really what fascinating means. And I may get
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this wrong, but I thought I read in a chapter
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in your book, so the invasion of Sicily Operation Husky,
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I think it was. Yes, So the Landski and most
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Lucian and folks like that were providing intel and contacts.
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And there's some scenes in your book where are agents,
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soldiers whatever they were. I mean, all they had to
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do was drive into town and say luckily, Giano, and
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all the doors and windows opened up and they were
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greeted and welcomed. And if I'm not mistaken, there was
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a scene or a situation where the mafia there actually
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lent some firepower to capturing some folks or attacking up
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a home or something like that.
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Yeah, they were quite involved with the invasion of Sicily,
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and the fact that it started back in New York
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where they had different groups of individuals who were from
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Sicily coming in and saying giving them maps, giving them postcards,
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giving them pictures that they otherwise would not have known.
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And so they developed their strategy and how they were
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going to do this attack from before the invasion even happened.
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Then once they got there, they essentially, you know, like
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you said, the name Lucky Luciano was a gate, you know,
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I mean a key to a gate. It opened it
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up that people said, oh, we know who you are,
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you have his blessing, let us help you. Even the
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mayor of one town helped them because of that. So
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they got into places, they got into safes, in strongholds,
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they got into all these different things that had maps
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and war plans and whatnot in order to take Sicily.
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And that was obviously a huge part of the war.
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That is overlooked because you know, we know what happens
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in the invasion of Sicily, we don't know how that
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was able to happen. And later, you know, long after
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the war, the Navy did give credit to those individuals
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for work they did. In fact, they got medals for
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their service.
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No kidding, okay, And particularly for current generations, they overlooked
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the importance and just how how difficult that that human
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intel was. I mean, there was no satellites, there was
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no GPS. You need to have you know, the course
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of rivers change, and if I've got a map, that's
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you know, hoever old or or you know, you need
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to know. Okay, this is what's going on. And out
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of that port. Here's where the minds are. You might
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want to avoid that. I mean that stuff was absolutely critical,
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and clearly, you know Meyer and Lucky and all these folks,
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they had their old tier motives. I'm guessing they're hoping
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for some you know, some reduced some time down the line,
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or get out of jail free card or something like that.
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But I saw an interview where you did were you
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said that they were more offended at being called disloyal
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than being called murderers, and they were actually patriots.
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Absolutely. It was so interesting talking to the family members,
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family members of the mob who reinforced that was the
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fact that they were patriots. They loved this country, they
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loved you know, the freedoms they had. They hated Mussolini
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and they didn't want that to take over, and so
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they wanted to do everything they could. And genuinely, there's
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a few quotes in there, especially Socks Lanza, who you know,
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he's kind of the you know, the little guy on
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the pier, but he runs the Fulton fish Market and
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he very much talks about how he was a patriot
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and how he was offended if anyone didn't believe he
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was a Patriot. So you know, my father in law
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kind of he cracked me up when he said, you know,
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I found myself rooting for the mob and he's like,
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I never thought that would happen.
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Well, that's that's what's special about this this story. Yeah,
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did they ever did you and your your research that
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did Luciano ever? I mean, did they ever get a
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break or was it The authorities kind of buried it
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and didn't want to admit that that's what took place,
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and you know, don't call us, We'll call you kind
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of thing.
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They did bury it. They tried to bury it for
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a long time, and it actually affected Haffenden, who was
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the one whose idea it was from the beginning. It
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kind of you know, ruined his career. But it with
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Luciano and the others. You know, he got sent he
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got deported when the war was over, and after they
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believed he served his time, you know, he didn't get
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to come back to the United States ever again. And
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they kind of brushed it under the carpet and didn't
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even until the Heirlins investigation even start to acknowledge what
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might have you know, how they were vital to this effort,
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how they were involved, it was kind of like, nope,
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you did it. Now, let's never talk about that again.
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Yeah, well that that unfortunately happened a lot. I'm just
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back back in that day, Sarah, when we come back.
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I want to talk more about another part that I
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really warmed my heart that I was impressed with. You know,
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as far as you talk about the number of volunteers
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and the risks that they took, the folks involved with
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the Civil Air Patrol, and in your book you say
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that's why I find it so compelling. The volunteers flew
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more than two hundred and forty four thousand, six hundred
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hours on eighty six six and thirty five missions. Ninety
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planes were lost, and twenty six people actually lost their
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lives in the line of duty. And these are volunteers
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flying in their own aircraft, with their own fuel and
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just doing some pretty impressive stuff. Again, coming back to
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that fact that we just weren't prepared for this war
359
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in the early days of the war, and I think
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in particular, when you saw that the Japanese strike on
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Pearl Harbor, all of a sudden, people that oh, they
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actually can get to us. So I want chat more
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about that when we come back. Lady and gentlemen, Ben
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bler Garcia talking to Sarah blatical dread back. Welcome back
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to American Warrior Radio, Lasier, gentlemen, having a wonderful conversation
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with Sarah Bladoxer is the author of a book called
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The Dangerous Short. I highly encourage you to read it.
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It's just it's it's it's a joy to read, truly, sir.
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I mean that not just because you're on the show,
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but I really if I hated the book, you wouldn't
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be on the show. How's that?
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Thank you?
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I appreciate it's my show, darn it. I get to choose.
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You can choose the Civil Air Patrol. That that was
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to me one of the more compelling stories that runs
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in some ways throughout the book. And and really they
377
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because you know you. The U boat threat also is
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something we follow throughout the Courser book pretty intensely. And
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one of the initial responsibilities of these volunteers was patrolling
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the coast and spotting these U boats. Correct.
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Yes, And it started off as just being a resource
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for when all our you know, guys went overseas and
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all our pilots were gone, what these would be the
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individuals who would step in and support our needs. But
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it grew from there into being the coastal patrols that
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were absolutely essential. You know down the line.
387
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What other kind of roles did they play?
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The Civil Air Patrol would They did everything from mail
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couriers to putting out fires to couriering i'm sorry, faring planes.
390
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So when the planes were built at the factory, individuals
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would pilot them to where they needed to go to
392
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be shipped overseas or to you know, take off or whatnot.
393
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But everything they did, they were lookouts for. When the
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Japanese balloon bombs became an issue, the Civil Air Patrol
395
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were the ones who were out scouting for those. They
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worked with the American Indians and protecting tribal lands from
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fires and such like with that. So and they even
398
00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:58.440
worked in undercover missions with the Mexican border in order
399
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to keep spies from coming in. So there was all
400
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these different roles that and you know, even down to
401
00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:07.960
the weather tracking and whatnot. So besides that, they were
402
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very busy, and there were thousands of volunteers that stepped
403
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up immediately. I think it was like forty thousand volunteers
404
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stepped up almost immediately after Pearl Harbor, and we're talking women,
405
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we're talking miners who would become cadets, and that would
406
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feed into what would become the Army. It was the
407
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Army Air Corps. Then it would become the Air Force
408
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and it still stands today. So these cadets are essential
409
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to what became our fighting force later. So everyone everyone
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who wasn't allowed to fight overseas essentially, and that could fly,
411
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or that had some role in assisting with flying or
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in that capacity, volunteered to help to support the civil
413
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Air Patrol.
414
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What was it kind of a rough haul to try
415
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and convince the military authorities that this was a good
416
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idea because I mean, you know, tensions are high and
417
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you don't want to just go up in your little
418
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Piper cub and be flying over New York City. You know,
419
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:00.839
they might send up someone to greet you forcefully.
420
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So yeah, it was not welcomed at all. I mean,
421
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initially there were those like half Arnold who were behind
422
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it and supported it, but the Navy wanted nothing to
423
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do with it. It took them like four or five
424
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months after the war began to be you know, we
425
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are in dire straits. We cannot support this. We have
426
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something like twelve planes and six work to protect the
427
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entire Eastern seaboard, Like you know, they don't have the
428
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resources to defend our own soil. And they finally see
429
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that what the civil Air Patrol is doing, especially those
430
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U boat patrols and all along flying the coastal patrols.
431
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They're seeing that this is actually helping, and they're seeing
432
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how quickly it's helping, and they're like, well, okay, but
433
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I mean it was not an instant like heck, yeah,
434
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let's do this. It was no, absolutely not.
435
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And I find it fascinating. Again, these are volunteers that
436
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:50.599
they're you know, doing all their own mechanic work. They're
437
00:22:50.599 --> 00:22:53.079
finally and I think you reference there were some women
438
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who literally were selling sandwiches by the side of the
439
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road to pay for their gas just so they could
440
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fly these patrol missions.
441
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That was one of my favorite stories, and I wish
442
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:03.480
there was so much more about that. But they were
443
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called the Suicide and Sandwich Patrol, and they would pay
444
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literally pay for their own gas because they weren't allowed
445
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to fly combat. They would pay for their own gas
446
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by selling jam and sandwiches on the side of the
447
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road and then go fly patrols. And how wild is
448
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that that they you know, they wanted to be involved,
449
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and they wanted to do something so badly that they
450
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took it upon themselves and did it.
451
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And this another area we're getting, you know, Rosie the
452
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:29.599
riveter and God bless them all. But a lot of
453
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these pilots were women. And tell us more about Willa Brown.
454
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Willab Brown was an incredible individual. She was the first
455
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African American pilot to be inducted in the Civil Air
456
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Patrol as a as an officer, and so she went on,
457
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you know, she would also fly patrols, but she was
458
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training young pilots, young African American pilots, to essentially be
459
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the Tuskegee Airman. She was that her work infiltrated into
460
00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.200
the Tuskegee flight program. But she was getting you know,
461
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:04.319
Gil Rob Wilson, who started the Civil Air Patrol, essentially
462
00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:08.000
it was his idea. He wanted everyone who was able
463
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to fly to be able to fly. He didn't care
464
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where you were from, he didn't care the color of
465
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your skin, none of that mattered. And so he went,
466
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.359
you know, to Willa and her husband coffee, and he
467
00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:20.519
talked to them, he got them involved, he got them
468
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to support it. And so, you know, Willa was this trailblazer,
469
00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:27.720
I guess you could say where you know, she didn't
470
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take no for an answer and didn't let race or
471
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anything stop her. And so she was very integral, and
472
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especially in the Chicago area, of getting young men and
473
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women to get their wings, to then go into training
474
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programs to be able to assist in the war effort
475
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in a way. They wanted to not just oh, you know,
476
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you have to do this menial task because phil in
477
00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:50.839
the blank reason right. She wanted to be able to
478
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offer that opportunity alongside Gil to let people fly if
479
00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:55.160
they wanted to.
480
00:24:56.119 --> 00:25:00.440
I'm fascinated by the technological aspect, particularly some the stuff
481
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.200
that Germans were developing throughout the course of the war
482
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:05.920
and particularly later in the war, and it included I
483
00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:09.400
didn't realize this, but you know they were actually testing
484
00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:14.279
doing submerged launches of missiles from submarines, which is you know,
485
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:16.359
we think we don't give a second thought today when
486
00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:18.279
you know, you know, somebody looses off. You know, twenty
487
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.839
Tomahawks were about to open the first days of the conflict,
488
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:26.720
but that was wow. I mean, and I'm curious from
489
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.200
your perspective this, I'm asking for your opinion here, Sarah,
490
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:34.079
if the two six two and some of these wonder weapons,
491
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:37.880
if they had really come to full production, how do
492
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.839
you think that would have? I mean, I don't think
493
00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:43.079
that would have turned the war completely, but it certainly
494
00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:44.480
would have extended it, right.
495
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:46.839
I think so? And I think you know, there's a
496
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:49.319
lot of talk in this obviously is speculation, but you
497
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:50.960
know if they say that if they had two or
498
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:54.400
three months longer, they could have deployed those weapons, and
499
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:59.160
to me, you know, again, it would have changed, It
500
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:01.720
would have acted terror, It would have you know the
501
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:04.720
fact that we're seeing what's happening in London, we're seeing
502
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:06.359
what's happening in Paris, and all of a sudden, that
503
00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:08.640
can happen in New York, that can happen in DC.
504
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:12.359
You know, that is a different thing. Now we know that.
505
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:16.319
You know, traditionally Americans, when they're fought with, they fight
506
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:19.759
back hard. So would that have amplified the war effort?
507
00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.599
I don't know. It would it have affected our morale?
508
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:24.720
I don't know, But I do know that that was
509
00:26:24.759 --> 00:26:27.799
a very real threat and it was very close. And
510
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:29.720
the thing is, you know, I talked to a good
511
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.240
friend of mine who's a retired submarine captain, and he
512
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.039
was like, no, no, no, they didn't have that capability
513
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:39.039
with submerged rockets until the Cold War, you know, till
514
00:26:39.079 --> 00:26:41.720
that era. And then I get to pull out the
515
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.279
film footage of the rocket test to show that they
516
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:47.640
were successful in nineteen forty two, and it blew his mind,
517
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.839
like we were the Germans were that ready to enact
518
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:54.480
submerged rockets as early as nineteen forty two.
519
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:56.960
I hope he at least gave you a challenge point
520
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:57.160
for that.
521
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:02.079
I had one from him before, but darn it. Now
522
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:04.279
now I'm thinking, I'm like, he's moved up in the world.
523
00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:06.480
Maybe I should have something check in with him again.
524
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:09.480
He Admiral, remember that time that I proved you wrong.
525
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:12.119
And the reason I want to talk about that is
526
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:14.000
that the other last thing I want to cover today,
527
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.079
and there's just so much in there in your book
528
00:27:16.119 --> 00:27:18.680
so that we just we can't, you know, give give
529
00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:21.079
value to all of it. But I want to talk
530
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:24.920
about the is it the bomb machine or the bombay machine?
531
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.880
Bomb bomb okay bo mb and don't I'm just kind
532
00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:31.480
of teasing this. I wanted folks on it. But really,
533
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:35.160
the thing that I really appreciated about your book is,
534
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.680
you know, Alan Turing and his team at Blesley Park,
535
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:41.599
if you look at modern media and films and stuff,
536
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:45.119
they get all the credit for breaking that code and
537
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:47.920
the Enigma machine and all that stuff. And it's great drama.
538
00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:49.559
I'm ill love the movie. I've seen it, you know,
539
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:53.480
three or four times. But that's not the complete story,
540
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:55.160
is it correct?
541
00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:58.279
Not at all. I think the Americans did not get
542
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:02.640
the credit they were due, especially Joseph desh.
543
00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:04.240
And the Polish, right was it a Polish guy that
544
00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:06.359
actually built the first machine?
545
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:08.880
Very much so. I mean the Polish get no credit
546
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:13.079
essentially for giving the British the idea or you know,
547
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:17.279
or at least the machine information and whatnot. And you
548
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:19.640
know what the Enigma did, how to break it, that
549
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:21.400
kind of thing that was all Polish inception.
550
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:23.880
Okay, sir, we come back. I like talking more about
551
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:26.079
that and Joe Desh in that whole because that that
552
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:29.519
was absolutely critical to really, I would say, in my opinion,
553
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:31.319
I'm not an expert, you are, but really ending the
554
00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:35.720
U boat threat in the Atlantic and winning us that
555
00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:38.599
that award. See Ladies and Gentlemen. Ben biler Arcia talking
556
00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:42.000
with Sarah Ladick. Check out her website Sarah Vladick dot com,
557
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.200
s A R A B L A D I C
558
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:46.039
dot com. Sarah, I'm definite gonna have to get a
559
00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:48.720
coffee of Indianapolis and read that too. Maybe we'll have
560
00:28:48.799 --> 00:29:14.039
you back. Stick around, folks, Welcome back to American Warrior Radio.
561
00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:17.680
Lasion Gen. We're talking with a best selling author documentarian,
562
00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:21.039
Sarah Vladdock about her book The Danger, showing that I
563
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:24.039
couldn't remember the darn name. It's a great read. We're
564
00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:27.720
talking about the Enigma and that the bomb machine, and
565
00:29:28.359 --> 00:29:32.119
you know Touring, no question a brilliant scientist, experian, mathematician.
566
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:36.119
But there's this fellow that you mentioned before, Joe Desh,
567
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.319
who just doesn't get enough credit. And we I feel
568
00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:41.720
like we took what they built and made it better
569
00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:44.359
and got better at doing the job that they were
570
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:46.240
supposed to do, not that they weren't doing their job.
571
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:50.279
Is that a reader's digest sort of summary kind of.
572
00:29:50.599 --> 00:29:53.319
But so the British had been working on the three
573
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:57.359
rot Enigma machine, but the American version is actually its
574
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:01.079
own thing. It was you know, an initial and throughout
575
00:30:01.160 --> 00:30:04.480
much of the war, the British were not sharing their intelligence,
576
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.279
they were not sharing the Enigma machines. And so when
577
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:08.920
we're getting you know, at the point where we're getting
578
00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:12.200
desperate and we need to have a solution, Joe Desh
579
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.680
starts working on his own prototype of what this will
580
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.279
be to break what became the fore roader. So that
581
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:21.799
was far more complicated. That was something that we needed
582
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:24.000
to be able to read in real time. We couldn't
583
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:26.599
rely on, you know, prior to that. Which was amazing
584
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.480
to me is the fact that code breakers were literally
585
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.279
breaking code with a pen and paper and you know,
586
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.839
doing these numbers and these things with millions of combinations.
587
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:38.440
And it got to the point with the technology of
588
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:41.400
the Enigma that that was not something possible anymore. And
589
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.319
it was Joe's machine that really gave us the capability
590
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:48.559
to read the Enigma and that's the short version of that,
591
00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:51.720
but gave us the ability to read the German transmissions
592
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:52.599
almost in real.
593
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:56.920
Time, and that was in effect a mechanical computer. Yes,
594
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:01.160
and one of the more heartbreaking for me, not because
595
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.480
I'm of German descent, but just reading your chapters as
596
00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:06.279
we go on through the book, and we're breaking the
597
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:10.279
German codes, and these U boat crews cannot figure out
598
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:13.640
why every time they surface there's a bomber above them,
599
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:17.839
or a cruiser or a destroyer already hunting them. And
600
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:23.480
you know, just and they've had these the milch that
601
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:25.799
we're supposed to be meeting them, and they're and I've
602
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:29.160
been out on a submarine. If you aren't getting supplied. Now,
603
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:30.880
it's not so bad now because they don't need gas
604
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:32.839
and they make all their own oxygen. But nonetheless, if
605
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:37.759
you I just I could almost feel the visceral panic.
606
00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:40.759
Maybe they weren't panicking, they were good sailors, but it's
607
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:42.960
just it was kind of kind of heartbreaking for me,
608
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:45.359
Sarah reading that towards the end there.
609
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:47.960
Well, yes, but I mean part of what I did
610
00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:50.720
with this story too, is I did tell the German perspective,
611
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:54.400
and I did tell the Japanese, and I really wanted
612
00:31:54.440 --> 00:31:57.200
people to the readers to understand that they weren't just
613
00:31:57.279 --> 00:32:01.160
this big, bad German Nazi monster. These were young men
614
00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:05.519
that were you know, many times conscripted. But I used
615
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:10.279
the interviews with you know, from Kirk and from letters
616
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:14.559
and whatnot to really make the reader understand what it
617
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:16.759
kind of would have been like to sit in that
618
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:21.319
you know, iron coffin, essentially waiting to find out if
619
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:23.920
that mind was going to hit you, if the if
620
00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:25.880
they were going to spot you, and the tension that
621
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.359
would be. And to remember that they were sixteen, seventeen
622
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:32.480
and eighteen year old too. So you know, it's good
623
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:35.119
that you felt that, because we should, you know, we
624
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:37.960
should have consider that in all things, like, you know,
625
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.440
it wasn't just this enemy that was killing us. There
626
00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:42.599
was more to the story and more to who these
627
00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:47.319
men were. And the shocking rate of you know, survival
628
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:50.839
for a U boatman was dire. I mean it was
629
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.400
like fifteen percent or something by the end of the war,
630
00:32:54.519 --> 00:32:56.839
and so you essentially knew if you were going in
631
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:58.880
that submarine, you probably weren't coming back.
632
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:03.960
And when the final orders came, when when Germany finally capitulated,
633
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:06.400
there was even some crews who wanted to fight on.
634
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:08.319
I don't know with what, but you.
635
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:11.960
Know, yeah, I mean, you know, I think of it,
636
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:13.839
turn the tables and have it be you know, it's
637
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.640
an American submarine and they say, well, the war is over.
638
00:33:16.759 --> 00:33:19.119
And you know you're going to be prisoner of war,
639
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:22.680
you're going to be whatnot, you know, not having served
640
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.519
in a submarine, I would still fight tooth and claw
641
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:29.319
till the last minute, you know, hoping that there was
642
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:32.519
something that could be done, you know, to maybe not
643
00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:34.680
save the country, but to save my crew. To my
644
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.000
brother in arms sitting next to me, that kind of thing,
645
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:39.279
I don't know how easily I would go out.
646
00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:42.400
I would be remiss if I didn't, being a former
647
00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:46.039
boy scout myself, if I didn't also bring up Harvard
648
00:33:46.160 --> 00:33:48.880
Merrill Hodgkins tell us about him.
649
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:53.160
Harvard was a teenager, He was a boy scout. He
650
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:55.799
was a young man who was coming home from I
651
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:57.960
think it was like a church party or something, and
652
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.160
it was late in Maine and the middle of a snowstorm,
653
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:05.279
and he spots two men, nicely dressed coming from a
654
00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:08.440
direction that didn't make any sense to him, and so,
655
00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:11.239
you know, he stops his car and he kind of
656
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.599
looks out and he follows them. But what he really
657
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:16.480
does that struck me as the fact that he went
658
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:20.280
and followed their footsteps back to the shore and realized
659
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:22.840
these men came out of the water, and he said,
660
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.960
whoa hold on? You know, So he goes back and
661
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.760
his father was out of town. His father was kind
662
00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:30.559
of the local sheriff. So he goes and you know, tells.
663
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:33.079
Eventually his dad comes home and he tells him what happened.
664
00:34:33.559 --> 00:34:38.320
And he's the reason why the FBI knew more spies landed.
665
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:41.840
They knew a submarine was there, but they until Harvard
666
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:44.920
said something, didn't know that spies had landed off the
667
00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:47.719
coast of Maine in November of nineteen forty four.
668
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:50.239
Again, I saw another interview you did share where you
669
00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:53.199
were talking about because I've seen this and I've read
670
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.920
this where you know, in many cases, if you were
671
00:34:56.360 --> 00:35:01.239
nabled body mail and you weren't in uniform, that was
672
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:04.800
really frowned upon. And you know, many of these people
673
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:07.840
in the book that you write about either weren't eligible
674
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:09.840
or kuldn't or too old or whatever. You know, you
675
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:12.840
talked about the civil Arbatral pilot who flew with two
676
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:16.920
he was missing two legs and he was still a
677
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:20.000
great pilot. But talk a little bit about that was
678
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:22.840
there survivor's guilt or I mean some of these people
679
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.840
finally feel eventually or where they recognized where they made
680
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:27.599
whole at least mentally.
681
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.960
To some degree. Yes, but you know, there were people
682
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:34.320
like Joe Dash who was of fighting age, but because
683
00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.440
he was so brilliant, it was more important for him
684
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:39.480
to stay back and work on the development of the
685
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:43.559
American bomb. Well, Joe was also part of the reserves.
686
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:46.960
He was an Army reserves and his entire unit was
687
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.960
sent he was not, and they all were killed in action.
688
00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:54.039
So he had a tremendous amount of survivor's guilt not
689
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:58.199
to mention. The whole neighborhood didn't because his mission or
690
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:00.559
if you will, or his program was so taught secret,
691
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:05.760
second only to the atomic bomb program, that nobody knew
692
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:08.559
what he was doing, including his wife and his mom,
693
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:10.760
and you know, he wasn't really allowed to visit her.
694
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:13.440
So all the neighborhoods had their opinion. Neighbors had their
695
00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:16.440
opinion of why isn't Joe going to war? You know,
696
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:18.599
they have their gold stars or their blue stars in
697
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:21.840
the window. They have the pride that their son is
698
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.639
fighting overseas and Joe didn't go, so he's kind of
699
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:28.440
judged and condemned by the neighborhood for not going. They
700
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.800
think he's an objector. So there's you know, individuals like him,
701
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:34.079
and then all the way through the civil air Patrol,
702
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:37.000
like the gentleman with no legs, there's you know, reasons
703
00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:41.400
they couldn't fight, or minorities couldn't fight, what not. You know,
704
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:44.920
they're still kind of judged for that. And then the
705
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:48.119
war ends and member they're all civilians, so they're not
706
00:36:48.199 --> 00:36:51.239
getting the benefits, they're not getting the recognition, they're not
707
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:54.239
getting all these things that come with being a service member.
708
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.880
Even though flying a plane with you know, duct tape
709
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:01.119
bombs attached to it so you can do you patrols
710
00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:03.760
deserves an honor in my book, you know.
711
00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:07.360
No question. I think that's why I really enjoyed the book, Sarah,
712
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:08.960
because there's so many of these people who I think
713
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.119
are finally getting there. Due we're just down to a
714
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:13.679
couple of minutes the real quick what would you consider
715
00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:17.360
the most tragic story was it? Was it Joe desh Or?
716
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:23.599
I think, yeah, I mean tragic wise probably yes, Joe,
717
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:26.880
you know the way that what happens with his storyline,
718
00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.519
but in some degrees, you know what he did change
719
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:33.400
the war and for a positive so in that respect,
720
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.039
but personally, Yeah, it was. His story was pretty hard,
721
00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:38.519
you know, to reveal in the end, and I got
722
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:41.639
really emotional writing that part of the story, and so
723
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:43.800
I would say, yeah, probably Joe.
724
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:48.039
Okay, anything, folks, you can learn more visits Sarah Vladeck
725
00:37:48.119 --> 00:37:50.320
dot com SA R A V l A d I
726
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:54.599
C dot com. I highly highly recommend her latest book,
727
00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:57.800
and I eventually hopefully i'll recommend Indneapolis too. But what
728
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:00.199
anything else in the in the hoppera for Sarah now
729
00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:01.320
that we should be looking for.
730
00:38:03.400 --> 00:38:05.840
You shall all see, there's a couple of projects that
731
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:10.039
I'm kind of deciding which one's next. So and you know,
732
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:13.199
there's always the hope that somehow this can become either
733
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.960
for the screen or for television series or something like that.
734
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:19.320
So we'll see, Oh it would make it would make
735
00:38:19.320 --> 00:38:22.840
a great series kind of a I think so too.
736
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:25.239
The band of brothers are on the home Front.
737
00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:29.440
Yep, that's what I'm hoping. So Okay, between that in Indianapolis,
738
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:32.400
maybe those powers combined to make one really rich you know,
739
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:35.440
home front World War two epic.
740
00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:37.760
Well, I hope you continue, because I think there's still
741
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:42.199
so many stories. I was my junior year in high
742
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:45.679
school small town and those things. Those libraries that you
743
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.599
mentioned that people don't know about now, but where books sleep.
744
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.880
I wrote a book report about the fourth Fighter Group
745
00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:58.639
and they were American volunteers who basically went to Canada
746
00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:00.960
and joined before America engine at war. And then we're
747
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:04.079
flying in Europe and boy, you talk about some characters.
748
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:06.760
I mean, it would make a great a great screenplay
749
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.280
with some of those characters. But that's a conversation for
750
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:11.920
another time. Sarah, thank you so much for spending time
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00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:14.039
with our listeners today and stay in touch.
752
00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:17.400
I will thank you so much. Ben, I had a
753
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:18.280
great time on the show.
754
00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:21.400
There you go. Ladies and gentlemen, Please share these important messages.
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00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:24.519
Until next time, all policies and procedures are in remaining place.
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00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:41.599
You've been listening to American Warrior Radio. Archived episodes may
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00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:50.599
be found at Americanwarriorradio dot com or your favorite podcast platform.