SOBRE ESTE EPISÓDIO
This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, June 7th, 2023 at 11:30am ET on Fireside Chat.
Today’s guest is Jessica Depatie, Executive Producer of Dark Night of Our Soul.
For more information about Jessica Depatie's work, visit https://www.shadowmedia.group/links.
Lorilee Binstock 00:00:35
Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock and this
is A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast.
Thank you so much for joining me live on Fireside chat where you can be a
part of the conversation as my virtual audience. I am your host.
Flor then stock. Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guest
questions by requesting to hop on stage, but I do ask that everybody be respect
Today's guest is Jessica Defeats executive producer of dark
of our soul. She's also the host of shadow work library podcast.
And she's is actually a shadow work educator, Jessica, thank you so much.
For joining me today.
Oh, I think I actually pop you off stage. Are you there?
Jessica Depatie 00:01:39
Hi. Can you hear me?
Lorilee Binstock 00:01:40
Hi. Yeah
I could hear you. How are you? Thank you so much for joining me today.
Jessica Depatie 00:01:46
Thank you so much for having me and what's cool off where I'm all about this.
Lorilee Binstock 00:01:50
I know it it's actually really, really cool. You
people can pop in and pop out and and listen to replay and
join in on the conversation, which I really love because I
I feel like a lot of people
are interested in and taught and talking to a lot of my guests about
you know, things that are this
that they're doing how people are healing.
And you you are a shadow work educator, which I think is really
cool. And so I wanna learn more about that, but I also wanna know a little bit about your
story and what got you into this work.
Jessica Depatie 00:02:19
Okay. Great.
So wow where do we start?
You know, it's interesting that we're having this conversation on your show, the trauma survivor podcast
because my story isn't that remarkable, but I think it's a common
I I think that's why it's worth sharing. The lack of
Lorilee Binstock 00:02:38
Absolutely.
Jessica Depatie 00:02:40
extravagant around it,
and more the
the universal story that
Lorilee Binstock 00:02:47
Yep.
Jessica Depatie 00:02:47
everybody has trauma, you know, and the documentary that we're working on right now,
one of the experts, Anderson Todd, who is the assistant director of wisdom and
consciousness studies out of you know, received Toronto. He
says nobody gets out of the parking lot without putting dungeon in the car. Right?
Lorilee Binstock 00:03:02
I saw.
Jessica Depatie 00:03:04
And so... That is that is my story.
Lorilee Binstock 00:03:05
That was I was like that's so accurate.
Jessica Depatie 00:03:07
Yeah. And so my
story.
Is basically growing up
I felt like there was a purpose to the trials
that I would
put myself in, You know?
A lot of the traumatic experiences that when my experience happen
to us. And
it's kind of a fabric
the fabric of our human experience. You know, challenges happen.
And some are very remarkable in some, like mine are just like,
you know, my mom was she's Korean, and she felt
strange in a new country, And I adopted that feeling strange
but in my own country, you know? And so
the traumatic experience that I had was having a really strong platform that I'm
Lorilee Binstock 00:04:00
Mhmm
Jessica Depatie 00:03:58
not accepted that I am rejected
and I would put myself in a lot of situations where I would reject
people before it they rejected me, and that was a coping mechanism that I
learned later on, by
Yeah. For me, was some
pretty severe bullying and
like, isolation from about the fourth grade, the eighth grade
and
crystal it myself that I'm weird. I'm unwanted
And so
Yeah. I just realized in that experience now looking in hindsight and having that
really affect me as an adult. I needed to look at what is this? You know?
There aren't... There weren't a ton of resources. I Didn't even think I needed a resource.
To resolve that. And so that's how I started getting into shadow work.
Because as I
grew up, got in high school god university.
I then realized that I am intentionally putting myself into these situations
are harmful for myself. Why am I doing that? Because I'm definitely learning from all these
experiences of
and is this the way to learn is obstacle really the way?
Is there a silver lining to of this? So that's what I've been exploring. Basically, as my life's work
since
Lorilee Binstock 00:05:09
that's fascinating. You know, that's really interesting. You say, you no, it's not that
extravagant, you know, your life story, but your story is
Jessica Depatie 00:05:16
Right.
Lorilee Binstock 00:05:16
so many other people's stories. I feel like a lot of people
you know,
where I And in tell many different ways, feel
isolated. They feel like an outsider.
And they feel different, and that makes them feel weird. And, you know, I've I felt like
that as well. I'm a
I'm a child of imagery immigrant parent.
And it did it did feel. You know, I I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida. And I
at that time, there there want a lot of other Filipino
in where I live I live by the beach. And so
I didn't realize that I would
Jessica Depatie 00:05:51
Well
Lorilee Binstock 00:05:53
I was different until, you know,
Jessica Depatie 00:05:59
eva.
Lorilee Binstock 00:05:56
it was pointed out to me and then I was like, oh, I I'm different. I didn't realize that.
So I feel like
there are people, especially, you know, in fourth grade.
That, you know,
that feel different, but they don't know why. And I I've
I I'm so fascinated. When did you feel?
When you were an adult, when you needed to explore this,
And how did you
decide, like, okay, I'm gonna do shadow work
is there someone that you met or you talk to?
Who introduce you to this.
Jessica Depatie 00:06:27
So I would say when I was younger,
I went in a really locked into an observer period.
Lorilee Binstock 00:06:36
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:06:35
When might call that dis, but it was very top down experience of my own life.
And constantly thinking, like, what is wrong with me that people don't wanna talk to me?
At this point right now, I know that it was my own platform, and that I
like, created that existence for myself.
As a kid, you know, I'm just, like, why am I so weird? Like, what is up with this?
And having every lunch but I was just, like, tread research
Lorilee Binstock 00:07:00
Mm-mm.
Jessica Depatie 00:06:59
adding lunch because I'd have to sit by myself and
all of that. And
just constantly thinking, like,
there's something wrong with me. I have to figure this out. I have to figure this out.
So when I went to a different school,
in high school. Like, I'm going to be different.
I know I'm an extra extroverted person. I know that I can
have conversations with people. I know that I'm another version of myself in there somewhere that I have
and given myself the option to be
Lorilee Binstock 00:07:24
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:07:27
Right? But in doing that, I
I hadn't
I didn't have any tools. I didn't have any friends and I
couldn't or he didn't wanna talk to my parents about it because I wanted them to be proud of me I didn't wanna
Lorilee Binstock 00:07:41
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:07:39
tell them that, you know I'm suffering, and I'm like,
lonely and all these things the had pride. Right? And so
all I had with myself. And with a lack of
tools and resources. I turn to drinking
So that's kinda of how I got into high school, and to give myself some credit, I did learn
quite a bit around social social cues, like socializing my myself in that
Lorilee Binstock 00:08:01
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:08:03
But also, with that, I developed a habit of needing booze to
access as part of myself. And so with that habit, it followed me into university
Again, not a very remarkable story. And I I keep highlighting that because
Lorilee Binstock 00:08:20
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:08:18
it's is normalized to drink a lot in college and through high school,
but it really isn't. It doesn't have to be that way. And I think these younger generate
the ones that are going through it right now, they're understanding that they know more than we did back in the day.
Lorilee Binstock 00:08:29
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:08:31
Which is so amazing. But back of my day, you know, like, what did I graduate?
You ever university seen, like,
ten or so. That was a standard, you know, blocking out every weekend.
Was not uncommon.
Lorilee Binstock 00:08:40
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:08:43
Right.
Lorilee Binstock 00:08:44
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:08:44
Problem. My mom is super psychic. She just
me sure
So
Lorilee Binstock 00:08:50
Oh, that's tiffany.
Jessica Depatie 00:08:53
Yeah. I got to a point where I was graduating university
I was starting a corporate career and
the Salesforce that I joined was really old
like, nineties sales floor, everybody in shoes
real cool fun hustle, lots of money
And with that, drugs alcohol were a thing, but I looked
I had the awareness somehow at that point. To be, like,
if people are not happy. You know, I'm not trying to be at this company for the next five years and turn into this.
And, like, no shade, but not we're trying to go
So I realized, like, I'm the only one I can save my myself
from this. I haven't created, like, a full on
alcohol addiction. You know, I'm like, a weekend warrior. I
justify a lot of these things I know I can pull my thought self out of it.
So I really dove into
what I know now is shadow work, but before was just the exploration,
this cultivating of my own experience and pulling myself out having the
before I would do the thing,
to understand more about
about what it is I'm doing. Right? And so that opened me up to a
whole world of of shadow work of things like
even astrology, which I got really into, which was super helpful to understand
my own experience in terms of archetype energies that one's working with.
Lorilee Binstock 00:10:15
Mm-mm.
Jessica Depatie 00:10:16
Looking into young,
even
and see what else came up. The taro
taro is really interesting. You know? I mean,
Lorilee Binstock 00:10:24
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:10:25
look at it from a destination standpoint, which a lot of people wouldn't have
subscribe to. But if you look at it just from an type perspective and seeing how your life
relate to the images that come. It can be a really great way to expand your consciousness.
Lorilee Binstock 00:10:38
Yes. I have this my my husband's grandmother,
Jessica Depatie 00:10:43
What
Lorilee Binstock 00:10:42
reads tear cards, and she reads mine every once in a while.
It's really. It's really fun. I'm like, yes. I'm I'm like, I need it. I need
I I need a couple hours with her to do that though because she
she she loves to go on, and it's she's really fascinating.
Yes. I do love love with you tear.
Something I actually saw going through your Instagram feed,
Jessica Depatie 00:11:04
Good
Lorilee Binstock 00:11:04
I I mean, You know, I was stocking. But I
I noticed that you did a lot of work in campbell.
I
Jessica Depatie 00:11:08
Yeah.
Yeah. So in this whole exploration of, like,
testing the human experience because, you know,
Now so back in the day, I put myself in a lot of dangerous
situation and I learned from them. And and when doing it unintentionally, I say intention
but I just mean, I put myself there. I didn't have a lot of experiences that happened
at me or to me. Right?
Lorilee Binstock 00:11:31
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:11:33
I was a creator of my own experience in the very like textbook way.
Show in this days of life, where I pulled myself out of the mug
out of the trial and air portion. I'm like, okay. How can I actually intentionally
test my edges?
Of the human experience of my own experience in a way that I've
gotten pretty good at doing. I'm
I feel very comfortable in the unknown and well to extent
and with ambiguity. And so combo, which is
for anyone listening that they're not aware of what it is. It's a
secretion from a frog
that leave it down in South America. And you
it was traditionally used for hunting.
It's a non psychedelic medicine, and they will harvest
the excretion from this frog in a very gentle way so it doesn't
create the animal. And then you
do several superficial burns into the top layer of your skin.
So you're not going into the bloodstream. Very quick little
and then you know a facilitator
apply this medicine to these burns sites they call gave.
And in that experience, it
it's really hard. It's like, it cleans out your lymphatic
but the feeling sense of it is getting really, really sick.
Lorilee Binstock 00:12:51
Mhmm
Jessica Depatie 00:12:52
Like if you like getting the flu
in the worst way possible for about ten minutes.
So it's really short. Most people will purge
out of their mouse trail lab.
And you're fasting. So you're just throwing up a liquid and need to drink
a certain amount of before, or you'll go to the bathroom later or you'll
sweat. There are a lot of different ways of purge shake. You might cry. And
show, like, why would you even wanna do that? If it's a non losing genetic and you just feel sick? What is the
point other than clean with that system. Well,
Lorilee Binstock 00:13:23
Tell me more.
Jessica Depatie 00:13:24
Yeah. Right. But there's more I promise that just like
stuck.
It created kind of psychological
billion.
You know, it and in doing that, to magic of event all the
clears out your brain of a lot of the the Bs that's been stuck there. It's like,
it's like bio ten hours of meditation in ten minutes.
Lorilee Binstock 00:13:45
Mm-mm
Jessica Depatie 00:13:48
Now you feel it. It's not a good time, but afterwards,
so much clarity in so much space has created between the things that you thought were problems and you're
body. So would okay did... Just kind of
close the loop on that experience night and embodied
kind of practice to go through
because it really ground into the present moment.
So a lot of times, people will do con before they go into ceremony.
For something like Eye because you can be really nervous going into something
like that.
Know, you have all these things millions intentions, all these fears, which are
Lorilee Binstock 00:14:22
Right.
Jessica Depatie 00:14:20
perfectly normal because it's such a powerful momentum to work with.
Combo and really great thing to do before because it clears you out bringing the present
moment, and it can give you that grounded in.
Yeah.
Lorilee Binstock 00:14:33
Now. Amazing. Yeah. I
I'm a huge job for Alex. I
I really
credit
Jessica Depatie 00:14:43
Yeah
Lorilee Binstock 00:14:43
it alex to my own personal healing. I'm a childhood sexual abuse survivor.
And so for the longest time, I had no idea
what yeah what was wrong with me. I just knew something, you know,
I thought, like, okay. Oh, there's a point where I was by diagnosed by bipolar.
And I was on, like, lithium and all these medications for, like, ten years, and then I was, like,
someone
talk to me about Ptsd and sexual abuse, and I was like,
If you're not a soldier, you still can get Ptsd. Like, I don't understand.
So tell me more. And and
then I realized, like, oh I've been struggling with Ptsd. I went to treatment. I
just so happened to meet several people in the psychedelic underground
and they had helped to me so much
in and really understanding. And I think this is where kinda of the shadow work right. You just
Jessica Depatie 00:15:34
Oh,
Lorilee Binstock 00:15:36
kind of go into the dark places of your soul.
Where you... If you are able to experience it or
or face it.
Is that it would you say that's where
post traumatic growth
grows from
Jessica Depatie 00:15:50
Yeah. That's that's a really good question.
So oh, gosh. We're do gonna start with that?
So your... Your acknowledgement and the Ptsd is really
interesting.
You know, it it's
Lorilee Binstock 00:16:07
Great.
Jessica Depatie 00:16:04
it's interesting to think about a time where that didn't exist.
Pdf and a function is always the included, but
the name for it, The recognition of it didn't really
come about until, like,
their late seventies. So a super reset.
And interestingly,
post traumatic growth was also scientifically typically named and more discovered
at the same time. No. You can imagine why
Ptsd really took off in terms of
acknowledgement versus the growth aspect of it, which I'll get into a second.
Which is probably, you know, if I wanna get, like,
real talk about it. It it's
if you make money
keeping people sick. Right?
Lorilee Binstock 00:16:46
Yep.
Jessica Depatie 00:16:48
And show, hey, something
quote that happens to you.
You have Ptsd here's diagnosis.
Now the benefit of that is clearly
these are things that we need to know about because Pt is very, very real.
Super real. Right?
And also the
the acknowledgement that word, but, you know, whatever, like, not
the the possible
psychological benefit of going through the hard thing.
With a sense of agency with the right resources.
Is just here as possible because then, you know,
maybe you can relate to this when you're diagnosed with something.
It that can be crystallize your identity.
Lorilee Binstock 00:17:30
Mhmm
Jessica Depatie 00:17:32
And so as we've
picked up the torch on exploring post traumatic growth again.
One of the things that we learned very early on is Ptsd and
post growth, Pt,
happen up can happen at the same time, You know, growth in the linear.
Lorilee Binstock 00:17:49
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:17:49
And what is growth even?
That with a huge huge question.
That we had to answer if we wanted to create documentary around growth.
These definitions that are really difficult to explore.
First of all, what is leaving trauma?
And what is gross? We know post it after
Lorilee Binstock 00:18:07
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:18:07
But trauma. Right? There were so many people with different explanations of what it is.
Lorilee Binstock 00:18:13
Yes.
Jessica Depatie 00:18:12
And you've heard things like big trauma and little trauma.
You know, but it's almost like we give a
we put them on a scale, like, little trauma isn't as important as a big t trauma.
Well, if it's important to you, you know paint a pain,
Lorilee Binstock 00:18:25
Right.
Jessica Depatie 00:18:26
Right? And that was something that
I still... Like, I even started off this conversation by saying,
Oh, my story. Isn't that interesting.
Lorilee Binstock 00:18:34
Great.
Jessica Depatie 00:18:34
But they knew, it was very interesting. You know? To me, it
set my life on a trajectory that I'm very grateful for.
But would have been completely different if it didn't exist.
And
So when we add a a ranking system,
to trauma. I think that's when people can sort of check out of that word.
They don't like to associate with it because I'm not a victim or nothing really bad happened to
me I might be suffering. I might have full blown and Ptsd, but I don't acknowledge it because
you know,
I don't have
Lorilee Binstock 00:19:06
Right.
Jessica Depatie 00:19:05
this crazy story. And so
the best definition of trauma that
we heard came from again, Anderson Todd.
Who talked about trauma as a kind of
like, when trust is broken,
Lorilee Binstock 00:19:22
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:19:22
you know, I trust, and I'm gonna go through so subconsciously my childhood.
Being safe.
Your example, I I subconsciously trust
I'm not gonna be sexually abused that the people that are around me
care for me, you know, And sure they may be doing their best and they're
they're dealing with life and whatever way possible, but they're not gonna do something that horrible to me.
Trusting broken in that
when dad tells you she's gonna pick you up from Doctor Pat or be at your soccer game.
And he doesn't go over and over and over again.
That is can be traumatic, You know?
Lorilee Binstock 00:19:53
That it. Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:19:55
Little whatever. But then I become a
I can't trust my dad. I can't trust men. I
can't trust myself. And so
that definition was really helpful moving forward.
And then when we talked about grove. Well,
the that majority I would actually everybody that was in the documentary
also has Ptsd. Right We have veterans that have had
long careers are seeing things that no... None of us will ever see
we have
you know, murder attempt survivors
and they still get
triggered by things. Right? They still feel
serious lows. They still feel like,
things are at times unbearable
But the way that growth works in the way that we've
to find it is an extension of consciousness, which is
senior your experience from many different perspectives being able to feel into life.
In a very full way. And know
was one of the interesting things about this whole thing is that growth doesn't look like the way
a lot of people might or conventional wisdom. My say is.
It's not necessarily affiliated with achievement.
And success and being happy all the time.
Lorilee Binstock 00:21:07
Right.
Jessica Depatie 00:21:08
Because we're be asking people that have lived experiences of post matter growth that
are now of service. They have turned their message into a message more or less.
A have, like,
Lorilee Binstock 00:21:14
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:21:17
how many deep appreciation for life, they
have meaning and they can see meaning and little things that a lot of people that
haven't acknowledged the adversity in their life had created more wisdom
and all these things, you know, strength, these people that have really identified I push
about a growth person.
They feel everything. So there's this level of sensitivity as well that
like, in
not so productive sometimes. You know to go through life like that.
But when you have to be do people be level in, which
they can feel their high on their lows. They're here for all of it.
That one of the things that when we look at the way
so work today. Not totally designed for that kind of person.
But they wouldn't have it any other way.
You know, to be able to have these conversations with people like you.
That are affecting
positively, so many people that have gone through traumatic experiences
you know, if you didn't go through that, then maybe they wouldn't be healing, you know? So there's a
out fact of
of
working with the material that you've been presented in your past life.
In a way that is
and four, like,
the higher good of of future generations. And so
that's really... Actually, the whole note that we end on in the documentary is
and then the controversial, and it's tricky to say,
without a lot of context, but
we ask the question. Is it a moral responsibility
to acknowledge your trauma to do the shadow work
to go into the dark plane to reclaim the pieces of yourself that's been fragmented.
You know? Because
when we look at the long list of social issues and
environmental issues and
all the things. Right?
Lorilee Binstock 00:23:01
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:23:03
We can see that the answers are to them.
Are very short sighted.
Now why is that? You know,
it's likely because the people that are making these decisions, the policymakers makers
politicians to educators,
parents, anybody who has any kind of influence
we all have something that if we're not doing the inner work,
what manifests as our outer life's work, the decisions we make how we show
open in the world
only have... It has a limitation.
So perhaps it is our more responsibility
you really look at the things that have happened to us and for us
so I wanted to be cliche about it.
For future generation.
Lorilee Binstock 00:23:44
I absolutely. I love that question. I I and
for me, the answer is yes. Right? I
feel that
you know, you know in in my
June issue of authentic insider,
a woman writes about by curious resilience.
And I feel like
when you hear other people's stories when you, you know,
other other people
it helped other people want to start healing because to be honest,
before I actually started my healing journey, I'm I'm like,
If you told me about post traumatic growth, I thought I would think you were full of shit.
Jessica Depatie 00:24:20
No.
Lorilee Binstock 00:24:22
Like, no. This is my life. This is who I am.
Now I'm supposed to be sad a lot of most of my life and this is this is it.
Because I had
just
it just couldn't. I could not
understand anything other than what I was living in.
Until I hit, like, rock bottom, and then I had to go into treatment.
But it was
I feel like
once I actually explore, I like really, really try to resist
exploring those dark places. I never
in twenty twenty. At, twenty twenty was the first time he even, like, utter the word
Jessica Depatie 00:25:00
Mm-mm
Lorilee Binstock 00:24:59
sexual abuse. And I think for for me,
as it pertain to mean because I was sexually abused by my father, which
has its own
you know, layers of
Jessica Depatie 00:25:09
Mhmm.
Lorilee Binstock 00:25:11
shit. You don't wanna go into. But
it was... One time is able to go into it though.
Once I was able to talk about it, the first time I actually talked about in a group of people
they were like,
they came to a couple of them came to me, and the really like that actually happened to me. I haven't talked
about it. Even though they had been in this treatment center that I was in for
probably a month longer than I was.
When they were able to start talking about what happened to them, and then that was when, like,
their healing process and their ability to move out of this treatment center.
Started accelerating. So it was... It's it's
I do believe that there is
once we've gone to this place once we've
achieved post growth, I guess,
I feel like, yes. There there's
there's a responsibility there.
To tell your story
But that's just me.
Jessica Depatie 00:26:04
Thank you so much for sharing that. That is
like, a really remarkable story of
so
of resilient, you know, and I'm so glad that you brought up
hitting your rock bottom and that being the thing that
that woke you up to the kind of work.
You know, what's interesting about that is a lot of people are living in a
like, a lot of people don't hit a kind of rock bottom that wakes them up.
Lorilee Binstock 00:26:30
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:26:31
Which I think why a lot of people do like delegate, like, I just have this
hovering dirt cloud of
Lorilee Binstock 00:26:38
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:26:38
a shit. Getting mean like, this feeling of you know, unpleasant. That's just
covering around. And so maybe can work, and it shows you
Lorilee Binstock 00:26:46
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:26:47
all the things you've been tolerated. Right? Is show your
you'll you can feel like your at rock bottom in a way that you've facilitated for yourself.
And I think that that is one of the
flaws in our in the way anxiety is
and it built today is, like, there's so many ways to distract you from having a rock
Lorilee Binstock 00:27:04
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:27:07
got a moment. So people that, like yourself, and a lot of people that I've
talk to in the research of this project.
They have
really, like,
intense traumatic experience that
the rock bottoms that the hit are remarkable. Right?
They can experience the post traumatic growth and
also, then remarkable ways because they've seen a version of themselves. They've
that is unbearable.
Lorilee Binstock 00:27:30
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:27:33
Right? Now for your
I don't know. I guess you're get average person.
Still having traumatic experience
but, you know, I can distract myself with Netflix or shopping or working out or all these
things or dating apps or jumping from relationship to relationship.
Lorilee Binstock 00:27:52
Right
Jessica Depatie 00:27:51
So I never feel that rock bottom. You know, all this convenience that we have in our life.
That is supposed to keep us quote happy, but just
keep those more or less from experiencing that dark night of our soul, And that's not to see that we don't
see hints of it.
We don't see hints of
you know, laying in Bed at night,
mean, like, what is what is all of that?
Got a change, but then, you know, maybe I'll literally listen into a podcast to go to sleep into having these thoughts.
Lorilee Binstock 00:28:16
Right.
Jessica Depatie 00:28:16
So, you know, the title, the documentary night of Our is
called action more or less.
To stop distracting yourself and to just contemplate
what is hiding in your own underworld?
So that you don't have to hit a rock bottom.
Because, you know, we can keep them
hovering and employment pleasant our whole lives and
the rock bottom might be, and I hate to be the girl talk about it.
But, you know, when we're older, hopefully, we get to that point living a long life.
Being the deathbed bed and that being
perhaps you rock about a moment of, like,
Lorilee Binstock 00:28:52
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:28:50
I should've have... I should've have looked at all that. You know, I I
I had all these relationships that were right there in front of my face, but I was
not able to love enough because I wasn't able to, like, reclaim the person of myself that made me feel like me
again
maybe feel like me for the first time.
Period.
Lorilee Binstock 00:29:06
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I say
Jessica Depatie 00:29:11
So... Yeah.
Lorilee Binstock 00:29:13
go. Go ahead.
Jessica Depatie 00:29:14
Just gonna conclude there that
And, even when I say this, I get a little bit emotional because
I really feel the impact of this work.
Lies on our generation shoulders.
Lorilee Binstock 00:29:28
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:29:28
You know, because we're coming to a present around
like,
the level of
depression that the world, like on a global scale
don't have the number, but it's like,
Lorilee Binstock 00:29:42
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:29:41
a lot of people, you know, it's like, one in three people
and we'll have some kind of diagnosing
mental disorder that can be preventable by
I think
looking at some of the material that has created these coping mechanisms that
have then become visual. I mean, we even look at hoard,
there's something like
eighteen million orders just in the at. I don't know if that number is true or not. But
that's that is wondering specific.
Like manifestation of a group of people that
have perhaps unresolved trauma
you know, that just the numbers are huge, and when we look at the ways that we are coping
through
consumer in them, it's destroying our planet and
I don't know what the timeline is for that.
But
you know, what world are we leaving for our kids? So... Yeah. The
this field like it feels like important work.
Lorilee Binstock 00:30:35
If it is an important work, I absolutely agree.
And, you know, going back to, you know, this idea of like, little key trauma. Right? I feel like people
the majority of people who just kind of live in that
Jessica Depatie 00:30:50
Oh,
Lorilee Binstock 00:30:50
space of... I'm just dealing and dealing
and dealing. I feel like they've dealt with little trauma
and because they have dealt with big g trauma, they don't think that
there's anything that they need to explore. And I think that that's also
why we need to
make people more aware that, like, little t trauma is trauma.
And and
not exploring it.
Can be a problem. And, yeah... It's so easy to
distract herself like you said with so much
And, you know, for me, I I I just couldn't
right? I had children that were triggering me. Never it was just like, oh my gosh. My daughter is reminding me
of of
these moments that I don't wanna relive and I need
just need to go away. But
Jessica Depatie 00:31:35
mhmm
Lorilee Binstock 00:31:37
you know, what's nice about being able to have also
know going back to what we were talking about exploring, you know, is it our
responsibility to explore those dark places. I really feel it, like,
if I didn't, I don't know what would be there for my daughter.
Because my daughter, my son, I... I think my son benefited to the most the youngest, so he's
see me... He's been with me more since my healing, my daughter has seen both sides of
me and it's been really, you know, I can see how it's been difficult
quote for her. Like, my son can
Jessica Depatie 00:32:06
Mhmm
Lorilee Binstock 00:32:10
is is I feel like ken easily, you know,
take a breath, and my daughter is more like me.
You know, prior to treatment when, you know, if my husband was to say,
you can you take a breath? Can you breathe? I'd be like, yep.
I don't want to. You know? So that... You know, because that's who I was. I was very much
a
I like, no. I nothing's gonna help. Leave me alone.
And then, you know, coming out of treatment, it was like,
this this is stuff that actually works when I was... When I was at my treatment center, they actually
we they did bio and you can see, like, what breathing action
we did when you actually took deep breaths and you saw, like,
your you your energy. It was just... It was amazing. And it would... It made it
more concrete for me to help my children
Jessica Depatie 00:32:57
mhmm.
Lorilee Binstock 00:32:59
be able to manage these stress by
simply taking a breath or really talking about what happened.
Jessica Depatie 00:33:08
Oh,
Lorilee Binstock 00:33:08
In their day. And I think
Yeah. It's
just just exploring it that way and being okay with
sharing, like,
the bad stuff and being okay with it.
Jessica Depatie 00:33:16
Oh, for sure, You know,
like, having kids, I I don't have any kids myself, but
talking to you one of the other
experts in our film,
Doctor Tru who's the resilience researcher.
And he was talking about the the other things we often talk about Trauma think
Lorilee Binstock 00:33:37
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:33:36
that are bad. Right? But they can also be things that are good
but you're different on the other side of it. You know? Having kids is a really great example of that,
having children
can be dramatic. Like, just changing in her whole life, you know?
Lorilee Binstock 00:33:50
Yes.
Jessica Depatie 00:33:51
And things That didn't bother you before
you know, are, like, all of a sudden important and require attention
and things used enjoy, the whole snow globe of your brain gets chuck.
Shaken up. Winning the lottery is another good example. A lot people win the lottery that's good.
Lorilee Binstock 00:34:11
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:34:07
Can be also be out there's like a whole bunch of other things that pop up as a result of that.
And
to your point about, you know, your relationship with your daughter being a little bit different than your relationship to your son.
Would I wanted to also add in there around this moral responsibility do the work?
It is
it also saying that
it's not your responsibility or it's not a
you should heal because it
that that's where things get tricky. You know?
Lorilee Binstock 00:34:37
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:34:37
Okay. To be somebody's bad day.
Because
this is... Like, we have to subscribe
in some way to surrendering to the way life
plays out
like, things will make sense at some point. You know?
The weird part of this complex
fabric of the way the universe is tied together.
So we can look at
like, my mom, for example, she
after starting this work, she was feeling like a lot of shame
around her themselves. And
by transferring her own unresolved trauma on me, you know, this
sense of unacceptable and rejection.
That I talk about often when I go podcast and on my own show,
and she's like, god I if I just
Lorilee Binstock 00:35:27
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:35:28
have worked on that earlier in my life because she's working on it now.
You wouldn't have that You wouldn't have to go through any of this. I'm, like,
public.
Lorilee Binstock 00:35:34
Oh.
Jessica Depatie 00:35:35
Yeah. I did I did suffer
but I'm so
grateful for the way that I dealt with that and the other
the bit of agency that you did in still me that I can change
because that's one of the big things around this kind of work.
Sense of agency. You know, I did
I wouldn't be doing this at all. I don't know where I'd be. What I'd be doing that I love what I do now.
You know so we can look at our children, let's say, you know, for anybody listening that
at
has had a two phases life? You know, one child experienced a version that
you were proud of
Lorilee Binstock 00:36:05
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:36:08
you know? But that can turn into something
remarkable that we have no idea.
To the only thing I think... Well,
I don't think this is from research
post growth research. That has come
out of the wave of Covid, considering the whole world went
through a collective trauma in many different facets, whether that was
extreme family deaths, of fear of government
you know, control, like, any way, which way people
are different on the other side of this. Right? It comes up with conversation often. Families
are looking a lot different. The way people go out public can be different.
A lot of friendships were dissolved for different, you know,
value noncitizens that were conflicting that just weren't able to be resolved.
So this new wave of research has shown that
Okay. Is what set somebody up for post traumatic growth.
You know, what can we help instill in our children? If
they are going through it art are are going to go through it because we all kinda do
Lorilee Binstock 00:37:04
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:37:07
There's no difference in extra version or introversion really
the benefit of being more of an extrovert type is that
like, the ability to share your story with other people
and to bring in people into your own experience like you were talking about when you're in treatment,
when you shared, it was really helpful. You're able to get feedback
and you put in distance between your own inner world and, like,
Lorilee Binstock 00:37:30
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:37:29
And you, you know, you put it out there, you you brought light to it.
The benefit of being more introverted and you may have a
more like, colorful inner world.
To contemplate why things have happened.
But there is a difference between open
and a lack of open there, we were gonna to look at the big five scale.
Openness this to new experiences.
Is one of the markers of
post growth in terms of personality.
So that's where we can start talking about in
intentionally
working with our kids or working with ourselves. I'll talk
ourselves first.
Lorilee Binstock 00:38:06
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:38:09
One of the topics I we explore here is intentionally facilitated post growth.
Which is a big concept to jump from
Did you know you have trauma to You can intentionally facilitate your own. Right?
Like, had a lot of ground to cover there.
But the point is to build capacity
So the more new experience that you put yourself in,
the more you can subconsciously realize that
I am capable and you collect more data around what you
can get through. So I think that's why people like working out.
In ways that are more intense like hit or traveling
or meeting new people or doing psychedelics.
Right? Like, the more experiences you can put yourself into, the more
Lorilee Binstock 00:38:52
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:38:50
waiting you can expand your capacity to be in them.
Showing worked with our kids, and we show them that you can be different.
Hear some ways that you can be different, whether that's helping them go into sports, like,
group sports is one kind of thing or if they're more of a solo person, like Martial Arts,
but really helping them intentionally test some of those edges
in micro.
In a more micro capacity.
Lorilee Binstock 00:39:13
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:39:13
So that when you get the flood dose of adversity,
is gonna happen at some point.
It's like, oh, yeah. I've been... I've been training for this.
And then okay.
Lorilee Binstock 00:39:22
Right.
Wow. Yes. And you know, it's it
reminds me of a
a really great quote from someone that I interviewed a while ago he was an
Jessica Depatie 00:39:33
Oh
Lorilee Binstock 00:39:33
shell former Nhl player, Dave Scattered. He after I think was a
sith can ca heat. It was, like oh it was a near fatal concussion in humans, like,
in his thirties getting dementia.
And
he told me because he said he's been his whole life just like this happy guy, like everything
everything was kind of, you know, he's working hard doing, you know, achieving things.
And then once you hit that, that
that that can got that fit concussion and nearly died.
You know, he and he was suffering and he realized, like,
he said that god came to him when he was like,
ready to just throw in the towel, and he was... He was ready to take in no life.
Said you said he's like,
he spoke to me, and he said that I I needed you to go through what you had
Jessica Depatie 00:40:25
Oh,
Lorilee Binstock 00:40:24
go through so you can help the people that you're going to help. Because
he was saying that, you know,
you know, there's a before that had happened, she'd be like,
Oh, just suck it up. Just... You know, you broke your arm. You you know, you broke your whatever
a teeth. You just, you know, just get up and let's do. Let's just do
right. It's like, let's let's go. But he said that he had to go through the suffering to
really understand what it was like,
to be able to help other people because now he is a coach.
He's he's a life coach. He's a for for
for athletes to, you know,
a and so he
he had to understand. The only way he could understand other people suffering was
going through the veterans himself because that he was just
ready to give up and I just thought that was
just an amazing way to look at it, like,
right right now, like,
I mean, I'm I don't know who I would be if
all the things that happened to me,
didn't happen.
Like you were saying,
Jessica Depatie 00:41:22
Mhmm mhmm.
Lorilee Binstock 00:41:26
but but I'm happy where I am now.
Jessica Depatie 00:41:27
You.
Lorilee Binstock 00:41:29
And so I think that's that's that's that's the growth. That's the
that's the growth there.
Jessica Depatie 00:41:35
Yeah. I'm so glad he brought up.
You know, a former athlete, like, that is
that performer type
you know, we we were glove was better and then first,
first responders, Ashley also fall into that category
entrepreneurs.
People that have, like, grip
Right? And they're used to.
Lorilee Binstock 00:41:58
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:42:00
Practice and training to present something, whether that's
to present themselves perfectly more or less in the arena of sport.
Or on the battlefield or in business. And
one of the interesting bits of research that we came across is that
you can go from
You don't have to be
So talking to vitality right now,
Lorilee Binstock 00:42:25
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:42:26
which is the ultimate, like,
lack of agency getting to the point of, like,
Lorilee Binstock 00:42:36
Right.
Jessica Depatie 00:42:33
I can't change and this is it and then pulling the plug on your experience.
So we wanted to study that to see what is the ultimate
giving up moment. Right? When people are like, there is no growth
left for me, The only way is this way.
And
there's bit of research that we found show that there... You can go from
being perfectly quote, okay.
To
Suicide Value fairly quickly, when you have committed yourself to
a lack of being able to change. And so I bring up performers because
especially prevalent in that kind of archetype.
Which I would consider myself to fall into as well.
Which is like a bit of a failed hero story.
You know, my whole life
cultured nourished
nurtured to perform him and to show up and all these things
and at a point where, like, let
say this gentleman,
gets traumatic brain injury to the point where he is just, like, super different on the other side of that.
The things that he valued above everything else likely was
the the entertainment, the the joy that he brought through his
his work. Right? And now that's gone,
Who am I even?
Lorilee Binstock 00:43:46
Mm-mm
Jessica Depatie 00:43:48
And so a big part of the
doing this work is
acknowledging grade.
You know, like, we go back to what is growth even,
not being happy all the time.
But it doesn't mean
feeling joy and you're sorrow.
Feeling the okay and being wherever you're at. So
I can really relate to that story because I haven't experienced
traumatic brain injury myself, but I was married to a
Jeff Pop is also of the producer of this documentary
he has traumatic brain injury. And when that started to flare up, it was
unbearable to him. And to me,
Lorilee Binstock 00:44:25
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:44:27
the emotional wave, the
all the things that come with that. And because of the brain injury, it makes it a little bit
tricky to work with. You know, the healing process on physiological
like, in in terms of how your body heals, it it's
kind different than a lot of the other psychological wounds that can happen.
And so
for him to acknowledge grace
inhibit
what he felt to be weak, not being able to show up.
Not being able to be the husband that he wanted to be
being ind incapacitated at moment.
Not being able to reach out to people
Lorilee Binstock 00:45:08
Mhmm
Jessica Depatie 00:45:04
like, without that great, then he don't get me wrong. He had moment of, like, no grade. They just like this
is horrible, and I don't know what to do with my myself anymore.
But that with
with what would be
identified as the weakness for a performer is
super super huge, and it takes time.
And yeah, what is Grace even? Like,
acknowledgement that
that this is all part of it.
Lorilee Binstock 00:45:31
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:45:31
Right. So below the
the coming to Jesus moment, like, that's what those load can be.
Lorilee Binstock 00:45:38
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:45:39
And it's hard when you're in those
in your rock bottom, I don't know if there's a lot of work to be done there.
Like, when you're really going through it and you're feeling everything,
I think the strategy there is to breathe and write it out.
Lorilee Binstock 00:45:53
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:45:53
But when you come back into a point of neutrality, that's where I think the work begins is
it's in
the contemplation of, like, what was that?
Where did that come from? You know, now that of space instead of just going right back
to twice me like, okay. Well I'm good again. You know, I'm just gonna ignore that that happened.
Lorilee Binstock 00:46:08
Yeah.
Jessica Depatie 00:46:09
That's where you put in the wraps.
Lorilee Binstock 00:46:12
Right. I agree. I agree. It was... You know, when you're in it,
there's really not much you can do.
Jessica Depatie 00:46:16
Mhmm.
Lorilee Binstock 00:46:19
You're just you're you're... You just... I feel like you can just go down.
Right? Like, I felt like that I was just going down my rabbit hole when I hit the rock bottom and I was
just like, there's nothing for me.
Jessica Depatie 00:46:27
Mhmm.
Lorilee Binstock 00:46:31
Luckily, I had my husband who was like, okay. You can do this. We're gonna do this.
Jessica Depatie 00:46:31
Yeah.
Lorilee Binstock 00:46:35
We're gonna do this. But
Yeah. It was... You know, I I I
I do... And I know that this
likely the purpose of your your documentary, but
to let will know that, you know, post traumatic growth
is achievable people, it's... You know,
And and I feel like, I I can't stress that enough because I was there.
I was there. I was there what I was just like, this is who I am. There's no there's no way out of
Jessica Depatie 00:47:02
Mhmm.
Lorilee Binstock 00:47:02
this. And I think
that there's nothing more
then I want to share then
it is a possibility. There's it's there.
Jessica Depatie 00:47:13
Exactly. That is so well said it is the possibility because
one very easy route we could gone down with this that would made my
a lot easier it may, like, here, the five steps the post traumatic gross,
you know, like, Youtube can be healed, but it
so not that. Like, this whole film is really one messenger
prompt
know, the answers that you get are only gonna come within yourself.
So it's... It's presented in a very poetic way.
And we're really, really careful to not say that it is
Let gonna say that.
Just to know that it is an option.
To believe that it is an option.
Is the biggest and leap of faith you can take.
Lorilee Binstock 00:47:59
Yes.
Jessica Depatie 00:48:01
There's no actual work that you have to do
in terms of
by the end of this film, I mean, Like, there's no actual, like,
you have to go see a therapist. Do you have to do psychedelics? You have to have to have
do in order to heal, what you have to do is just know that it's possible
and to just open your mind to whatever comes in. So
one of the major themes or I methodologies that we follow is
young in psychology throughout that.
And the way that
that's presented is a very gentle, like,
awareness in an opening process.
Everybody's experience different. Everybody's mode of healing will be different.
That's why we're a solution agnostic kind of organization because
going into treatment center it may be perfect for you. To give the guitar, maybe all that you need.
You know,
learning how to cook maybe everything.
So to pinpoint exactly what needs to happen, what do I do now?
Is not our responsibility to tell you what to do because that would just be
Lorilee Binstock 00:49:06
Mm-mm
Jessica Depatie 00:49:03
impossible and, like, irresponsible on our end. Right? Behold
I don't wanna be the person that's like, well, just do what I did. If
and it'll work for you at might.
But
This is where we pass agency to the viewer, like,
your own intuition will let you know, follow the clues in your life.
Lorilee Binstock 00:49:21
Mhmm
Jessica Depatie 00:49:24
And here are through of the mythology that shows you that post growth is
throughout of human history. Here the bio reasons why
grows after trauma is actually probable not just possible.
And here's all the proof around why this is
actually a thing and not just some random phenomenon that happens to people that like, are lucky enough
two
you know, catch the post matter growth bug.
So. Yeah.
Lorilee Binstock 00:49:49
Wow, Amazing. I mean, I can talk to you all day. I really could.
Jessica Depatie 00:49:51
I know. That'd be great.
Twenty four hour podcast.
Lorilee Binstock 00:49:56
I know. Right. But we do have to wrap it up.
But I do want to ask if you have anything that you would like to add
Jessica Depatie 00:50:05
Well, I think I got through all the
the juicy bit of the documentary, but we are running a kickstarter
right now until the end of June,
a little bit in the July, we're using fun to help us
finish the film. So right now, if you donate eat fifteen bucks to the kick
started. You can watch a short version of the film, which is thirty minutes, and it's very good.
Have same else.
Lorilee Binstock 00:50:26
I I love the trailers.
The trailer was amazing. I I I was like, I need more. So, yes,
Jessica Depatie 00:50:31
Thank you. We'll, also I you the link. Else send need a link to watch it.
For anybody listening, yeah, the donation goes towards helping us finish it.
And we just actually partnered with this fantastic director out of Hollywood.
That is going to be editing our full film and just make it
primed for for math media
you know, like, that was one thing that in doing this process, we realized we have some limitations around
what?
In Netflix.
Lorilee Binstock 00:50:56
Mhmm.
Jessica Depatie 00:50:57
You know? And and what is too complicated? So we... Like
I love this so much.
I'm gonna set you up with the connections as distributors and all the things
that you guys don't have right now, and I wanna edit it so the people really... So really not
people locked up. So that wasn't in
huge huge miracle for us. And, yeah.
Any fun that
are donated, go towards helping fish edit. But
Also,
it goes towards helping us create an past campaigns to the ones the film is finished, we can take
to correctional facilities and addiction centers and to
Lorilee Binstock 00:51:34
Amazing.
Jessica Depatie 00:51:34
like colleges and, yeah.
To help for the word of post growth rays wear in it.
Around of possibility
for people that either need it the most or to make the most impact. And usually, those are the same
people
Lorilee Binstock 00:51:46
That's incredible.
I really. I love that. I love going. The this idea of going to
those places and and having them be able to
for this idea of post growth. So incredible. And, you know, there's a
scrolling fortune cookie right there on your screen.
And I will also have in the show notes that you can go to that kickstarter right there.
So
Jessica Depatie 00:52:11
Beautiful. Thank you so much for having Me on, this have been really fun.
Lorilee Binstock 00:52:12
Thanks.
Jessica Depatie 00:52:15
Love that you on my show too. One of these days. Let's up that up.
Lorilee Binstock 00:52:17
Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Jessica I really appreciated.
That was Jessica good to pat shadow work educator host
of the shadow work library podcast and the executive producer.
Of the documentary dark night of our soul for more information on Jessica,
click on that scrolling fortune cookie right there on your screen.
You... It'll will also be in the show notes anywhere you get your podcast.
Also, June issue of authentic insider is out check out out
to insider at trauma thrive dot com that trauma survivor
dot com.
We will be back next week and with episode one hundred,
You can join me live when I speak with Erin Johnson about
mental health and marginalized communities. Next week it's gonna be on a different day. Same
time though, it's gonna be on Tuesday, June thirteenth.
Please join me.
You've been listening to A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast.
I'm Lorilee Binstock. Thanks again for being a part of the conversation.
Take care.
