Carl Leibowitz: ⁓ and welcome to another episode of a conversation with Carl. Remember to like, follow and subscribe for the latest content. ⁓ I am very excited to welcome Dennis Spiegel, widely known as Mr. Theme Park, who is the founder and owner of International Theme Park Services. With over 50 years in the leisure industry, he has worked on more than 500 projects globally, Dennis Beagle to the conversation.
Dennids: Hey Carl, how are you? Good to see you.
Carl Leibowitz: you so much for joining me today. So can you tell me a little about International Theme Park Services?
Dennids: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Well, International Theme Park Services is a global consulting company to the theme park and leisure industry. We were formed 43 years ago, believe it or not. And as you pointed out, we've worked on over 500 projects in more than 55, 60 countries now. And when I started the company, Carl, I kind of felt like the Johnny Appleseed of the industry because I've was going literally around the world planting seeds of theme parks and different types of leisure facilities because I recognized at that point in time that the one common denominator ⁓ all people in the world, no matter what your religion, race, geopolitical is, everyone wants to have fun. And that's I started the company.
Carl Leibowitz: So what do you actually do? If I would call you up and I would say, I want to build a theme park, what do you do? You show up at my house, you show up, we find a place, what do you do?
Dennids: Well, first of all, we'll have a discussion with you and your team to find out what you're interested in, what you're thinking about, what part of the globe, the world you're you're located in. And then ⁓ services really are from A to Z. And by that, I mean, we start literally with the ⁓ first most important and most boring thing we do in a project, ⁓ is the fees of But the feasibility study, Carl, is the roadmap for the project. It keeps you on a path. You may not always be 100 % on the path, ⁓ it does chart the course for the project. We then, ⁓ depending on what your needs are, we will assist you in the master planning, the concept development, the thematic content. the rides and attractions and negotiation with the suppliers and work all the way through the design process which is very laborious process. Typically takes about for a normal green field project that wouldn't quite on the scale of Disney or Universal. Takes about three years, three and a half years to to build a theme park.
Carl Leibowitz: What makes a good theme park?
Dennids: Well, it's the thematic content. It's making sure that that theme fits in with where you're ⁓ building park in the world. It can be whimsical, it can be historic, it can be futuristic. The list for themes is ⁓ ad infinitum. So getting it right up front. making sure that it fits the marketplace and the people that are going to come and visit is the most critical thing.
Carl Leibowitz: What's your favorite theme park that you've built?
Dennids: Well, we've done so many ⁓ they're all different. Each one, as I always say, Carl has their own persona. We did Lotte World over in Seoul, Korea, and we built that ⁓ in We opened it and we were a part of that project for about seven years. And it was the largest indoor facility of its type with over six and a half million square feet or 650,000 square meters of indoor and outdoor theme park along with retail, food, dining, et cetera. So that was really a very early creative project that we were involved with from basically soup to nuts.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, now they have them, American Dream and the Mall of America. They're doing that all over the place now.
Dennids: Yeah. Well, actually Lottie World came after those parks and we actually were larger than Mall of America and the West Edmonton Mall out in Western Canada. And it became the largest facility, indoor facility in the world. Tremendous theme, high density area. And that theme park today in 2026 will see about 10 million people come this year.
Carl Leibowitz: And so how do you decide about concessions at these various theme parks? Like, if you're putting up a theme park, what are the concessions going to look like?
Dennids: Well, you when you speak about concessions, you have basically two operations. You have the ⁓ and B food and beverage and you have the retail, the ⁓ and souvenirs. And very important to understand market to. get that right up front. And I'll tell you a quick story about how that was missed in Tokyo Disneyland. When Disney built Tokyo Disneyland back in the early 80s, their process was to bring the American concept totally to Tokyo. And they decided to only serve hamburgers and hot dogs and the foods that, know, we're familiar with here in the United States. the people love the thematic content. love the rides and attractions, but they didn't like the food. within ⁓ six months, Disney went through a total ⁓ recalibrating their food and beverage ⁓ to in ⁓ sushi fish. and things that were very typical with the Japanese. So you gotta get it right up front if you wanna make money and make them happy.
Carl Leibowitz: And then I would say we have an insatiable appetite for extreme thrill rides. The closer we can perceive death approaching without dying, the better. Why do you think this is?
Dennids: Well, everybody likes to push that fear factor, if you will. And we've been doing that for 70 years in the industry. Incidentally, our industry in 2026, we say for the theme parks, is 71 years old. That's how old when Disney opened in California. And through the years, we have seen the rides and attractions and particularly the roller coasters get longer, higher and faster. if you look at the new Saudi Arabia, Kenya park that just ⁓ on January or 31st this last year, you'll see that they have a roller coaster that's three and a half miles long, 650 feet high travels at maximum speed 150 miles an hour. And each has to have a windshield on the front of it to keep sand and any other debris of the face of the rider. So longer, faster, higher technology has just been advancing, which allows us to do that. ⁓
Carl Leibowitz: Wow. those rides better ⁓ just say like the Cyclone, which is 100 years old this year in Coney Island? Or are they different rides?
Dennids: They're different rides. mean, ⁓ you have your wooden coasters, you have your steel coasters, have combination of both steel and wood, but you take a ride like the cyclone, which you pointed out. I've written that quite a few times through the years and you still, get an enormous thrill and, that you are going to die when you ride that ride because it is ⁓ so clickety and rickety. and then I can take you on a the Orion at Kings Island ⁓ here in Cincinnati the Diamondback roller coaster and you and I can sit next to each other and have the same kind of conversation we're having right now. Never raise our voice. It's that smooth. ⁓
Carl Leibowitz: Do you still ride these?
Dennids: Yeah, I love the roller coasters. I could do this. can do this, but I can't do this anymore. If get on the monster or the scrambler or something that's circular, I get vertigo these years. ⁓ I can do ⁓ one inversion, don't take me five or six. ⁓ Yeah.
Carl Leibowitz: You Can you go upside down or no? Okay. We talked, you touched on this a little bit, but how did Walt Disney change the face and the idea of theme parks?
Dennids: Well, truly was, ⁓ hear this ⁓ used phrase, a genius, and he really was a genius. Roy, his brother, was the financial expert, the business side of the equation in the family. And ⁓ Disney As we've seen through the 70 plus years, he had these ideas with animation storytelling, and he brought that to life and brought that directly to the consumer. So what he really did was in fact, he came to Cincinnati where I'm located a few times to visit Coney Island here in Cincinnati, not to be confused with Coney Island in New York, because this was known as America's finest amusement park. And it was the forward to Kings Island and he got ideas here. He went to punch train beach ⁓ New Orleans. He went to Riverside in Chicago and he gathered data and ideas and he put it together in a way that had never been done. We've never seen. So he changed the, the, the basics of the business. from carnival festival type attraction to a thematic content with story everywhere you went in the park, whether it was food, ride, attraction, whatever. And that's carried forward, as I said a few minutes ago, to 71 years.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, it seems like it's very thought when you are walking through Disney. As you through Disney, everything is planned, it's thought out. It's not when you're in Tomorrowland or when you go to Space Mountain. It's thought, ⁓ it's a process that thinks, you think, you thought about where you're gonna be. Where are gonna be?
Dennids: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the case whether you're in Epic Universe at Universal. You're at Six Flags in Texas or Georgia or Chicago or Magic Mountain, Kings Island, Kings Dominion. We have a process that we utilize that was utilized by Walt Disney 70 years ago. And let me explain it in Peter Rabbit language. Okay. Think about Everybody goes to a shopping center. You anchor the shopping centers with the big stores at the ends, Northeast, South and West. And in between those anchors might be ⁓ Bloomingdale's or Lord and Taylor or Target or somebody in a big store. You fill the gaps in between with stops that you want people to make along the way to keep them there to shop. And that's exactly what we do simply with the theme park. Not that simple, but it's about balance and flow that we look at very carefully ⁓ we take a strategic approach with ⁓ so we don't create a situation where a park is lopsided. ⁓ So know that when people come into ⁓ a park in the morning, here in the United States, they're acclimated ⁓ to go the right. and they'll flow around to the right. ⁓ know that, okay? ⁓ we will do things to throw that off balance just a little bit, ⁓ them to go to the left to break up that flow of people and move them through the park. So we're working with a technical term ECUs called entertainment capacity units. And theory is, and this is the Disney theory and we still use it today.
Carl Leibowitz: you
Dennids: If we give the guest 1.5 experiences per hour, they're being satisfied. If we shorten that to one experience per hour, they're waiting in line too long. If we... accelerate it and take it up to two or beyond, then they're going through the park too fast, they're leaving too early, and they're not spending the kind of money that we hope they would on additional food and drinks and snacks.
Carl Leibowitz: that's really interesting. When I go to a theme park, I say we ⁓ all the way to the back. So you start really early and you go to the back because no one's there yet. ⁓ then you work your way forward because by the time you get your way forward, people have already been in those lines. that's my thought.
Dennids: Yeah, a lot of people do that. I wrote an article for the Times Dispatch in 1976 for our 200th anniversary and it was entitled, How to Visit a Theme Park. And I told people in this article, when you come in, rather than going to the right, go to the left. You'll miss that mass flow. You'll be against them. And then when everybody else is eating 11 and one and two, and in the lines for the restaurants. then hit your more popular rides because the lines will be less at that point in time. So that still holds true today.
Carl Leibowitz: So let's discuss figures. How much does amusement theme parks generate in the US?
Dennids: Well, last year we asked and the total numbers aren't in yet, but we estimate that somewhere in the neighborhood of 375 million people went to theme parks. those 375 million, there were approximately three billion rides given or taken by those people. each has its financial calculations. I break it for you into very simply two ⁓ areas. the regional parks, which are the Kings islands, the six flags, the Dolly woods, the silver dollar cities, the magic mountains, and then the destination parks, which would be Disneyland, Disney world, universal sea world. They will generate a higher per capita spend just because of the type of attraction they are and, and what the visitor has geared up for. But isn't a ⁓ number ⁓ I can say each part generates $50 million or 20 million in the feasibility. hmm. Yes.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, when you're going to Disney, it's a trip, right? You're planning it. When you're going to Six Flags live in that area, even if it's like 50 miles away, you're only planning to go for the day. It's a day trip.
Dennids: Correct, it's a day trip and you're spending less. You're gonna spend less. The average cost today, Carl, for a family of four to go to Disney World, or let's say Orlando, family of four ⁓ five to seven days runs between seven and $10,000.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah, and that makes sense because if you're going to do it, I would say do it right. go, stay at the property, go ⁓ the food, get the meals included. Otherwise, it's, yeah.
Dennids: Do the carry breakfast. Absolutely. Everything you can possibly do. Cause it's a, it's a, it's a big expenditure and it's a big family outing. It's, huge.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah, and if you're going to Six Flags, it's more a day trip, as we said.
Dennids: Yeah, and we're finding too, as we mature in this industry, 70 years, as I've said several times, season pass has for the regional parks, also the destinations, but for the seasonal parks, you took prior to the merger of Six Flags and Cedar Fair, each company, Aggregate attendance approximated 57 to 60, 6-0 percent come on a season pass basis. So it's huge. Yeah.
Carl Leibowitz: That is huge. And I know the news likes to sensationalize it and accidents do happen on parks and sometimes you'll be watching the news in the morning and you'll see someone stuck on a roller coaster. how safe are rides?
Dennids: I want to tell you, Athene Park is probably the safest place you could be on the planet. you look at us on an actuarial and a numerical basis. Go back to the numbers I just told you, 375 million, 3 billion plus rides given. When you look at where we fall the list of accidents by the consumer product safety commission, we're at the very bottom. More people are hurt. And this is true. Gardening, ⁓ bowling, television, playing billiards, barbecuing, ⁓ and that goes on. on and on and on and on and on
Carl Leibowitz: How do people get hurt watching television? ⁓
Dennids: ⁓ you'll have to ask the CPSC. They're the ones who reported, but that is, that is a true number on the list, but I can tell you this. I was on a television show in Los Angeles once. and question up and the, moderator of that the gal, she said, You know, you're hurting and maiming our children. I said, you know, no, we're not. said, let me tell you something. was less ⁓ for me to come from LAX to this studio ⁓ on the 405 it would be for me to go to every theme park in America and get on their roller coaster and ride it today. But we get the sensationalism and we get that publicity, which is understandable. People come to theme park, an amusement park for a good time, not to ⁓ have an accident or be But we are very safe and let me just say one more thing and I'll be quiet. It's because of our own inspections internally, our insurance inspections, our state inspections, our third party inspections, and our ride manufacturer inspections. Those are constantly going on and every ride that you get on in an amusement theme park every day has been inspected before that has been green tagged and said ready to ride.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah, I always double check when I'm on there that my seatbelt's on, because I'm always nervous that it's not on right.
Dennids: We've had situations where, uh, typically if there's a, if there is an accident on the ride, it's one of three things. It's either mechanical engineering. It's ride operator didn't do something right. Make sure your belt was on and double check you or in the most prevalent is rider. The rider, they did something. They tried to stand up, disobeyed the signs that are on all the rides.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah, and that's a no-no. ⁓ So asked this a lot on a lot of my podcasts about AI because AI is so relevant today. How is AI going to play in amusement parks in the future and how does it play in your business model?
Dennids: That's a big donut. Well. You know, we're we just scratched the surface with AI and I sit here with my Televisions on in my office watching the stock markets and the talking heads all day long and that's all they talk about is AI But we're already using it in the industry. We're using it in several ways I wrote an article on this ⁓ recently about for labor. ⁓ gonna help us with labor. It's gonna help us ⁓ and factor and figure our schedules and our labor to keep costs down so we aren't heavy on bad weather days or attended days. It's going to help us in our thematic content and our ability to increase the ⁓ ⁓ in parks. What we're seeing come along Carl technologically now through AI and other forums. happening so fast. It's kind of like how we saw the microwave change in our cell phone change. ⁓ week there's something else. And the great thing is we're using this positively and being used both by the operators, the park ⁓ and the who build these rides. They're weaving it in to their designs.
Carl Leibowitz: what is the future of theme and amusement parks look
Dennids: Well, it looks very good. mean, if you go back to the number I told you, 375 million in the US roughly globally last year, that was over 600 million. Okay. if you look at the expansion that we have had we are forecasting, you have ⁓ Disney building a $10 billion park in Abu Dhabi. You have Universal Studios building $7 $8 billion ⁓ park England and also over in Saudi Arabia they're proposing. And ⁓ only those big companies, the giants, You have the local expanding. So, there really is no signs of it letting up. I mean, right now with the war in Iran, the conflict, cetera, that's slowed everything down, but ⁓ it stop us. And it comes back to my comment about common denominator among all people is they want to have fun.
Carl Leibowitz: And do you see small being turned into mini amusement parks So.
Dennids: No, we're seeing all different sizes right now. We're working with a group out in Western US, Northwest US, and they're building a small family theme park by today's standards, which would be a couple of hundred million dollars, I should say. So not really small, but thematically it fits the content.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah.
Dennids: of the of where they're building. It the ⁓ essence of the of the area. And we we're with one down in ⁓ Texas. and it's a small family, young children's type park and will come on board by the end of the year. So ⁓ what seeing Carl is independence parks still here in the US, not on the size of a huge six flags right now. But we're also seeing universal They're opening a park over in Frisco, Texas, which is about 300, I think it's up to 500 million now, but it's geared towards children. We're seeing the Peppa pigs, we're seeing the Bluey, we're seeing the Barbie, we're seeing a lot of development.
Carl Leibowitz: So when you're spending three, four, $500 million, how long does it take to start earning a profit?
Dennids: Well, depends on the market and we typically in our feasibility studies. We want to see an internal rate of return and IRR of about 25 % initially and on top of that we'd like to see a payback and I'm using a debt to equity ratio of 50-50 somebody's putting in 50 % of that that capital and borrowing 50 of a payback within five to six years, less than seven. That's typically what we work on. That's what they like to see.
Carl Leibowitz: As we start to wrap up, is there anything I should have asked you that I did not ask you?
Dennids: I think it's interesting to note that theme park industry in the United States is huge. If you took all professional paid sports, hockey, everything, baseball, NBA, everything, and you roll them together, the theme park still. Industry is still larger than all of the sporting industry rolled together ⁓ still ⁓ and remains the last bastion of wholesome family entertainment because it's the place where grandma and grandpa, mom and dad, the kids, grandkids can all go, can be together, spread out, see different things. when you break that down, on a value, on an hourly basis, yeah, tickets expensive, but everything's gotten expensive. ⁓ on an hour by hour basis, it's still a great price value. equation for the the guess. So we're.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, if you go to a football game, everyone has to enjoy the football game in the family. But if you go to an amusement park, there's things for everybody to do. And you don't all have to be together as a family the whole day.
Dennids: Now, you look at the, just come back to it and take that one step further. you look at a concert, go to a Taylor Swift or an Eagles or something, ⁓ paying enormous amounts of money for 90 minutes to two hours. The typical visitation a theme park by family ⁓ is six to seven hours. So break it down on an hourly basis. That's what we did.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, Dennis Beagle, known as Mr. Theme Park, the founder and owner of International Theme Park Services. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much out there for listening. As always, let me know what you think. Put your thoughts in the comments section. And until next time, everyone, be safe.
Dennids: Hey Carl, how are you? Good to see you.
Carl Leibowitz: you so much for joining me today. So can you tell me a little about International Theme Park Services?
Dennids: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Well, International Theme Park Services is a global consulting company to the theme park and leisure industry. We were formed 43 years ago, believe it or not. And as you pointed out, we've worked on over 500 projects in more than 55, 60 countries now. And when I started the company, Carl, I kind of felt like the Johnny Appleseed of the industry because I've was going literally around the world planting seeds of theme parks and different types of leisure facilities because I recognized at that point in time that the one common denominator ⁓ all people in the world, no matter what your religion, race, geopolitical is, everyone wants to have fun. And that's I started the company.
Carl Leibowitz: So what do you actually do? If I would call you up and I would say, I want to build a theme park, what do you do? You show up at my house, you show up, we find a place, what do you do?
Dennids: Well, first of all, we'll have a discussion with you and your team to find out what you're interested in, what you're thinking about, what part of the globe, the world you're you're located in. And then ⁓ services really are from A to Z. And by that, I mean, we start literally with the ⁓ first most important and most boring thing we do in a project, ⁓ is the fees of But the feasibility study, Carl, is the roadmap for the project. It keeps you on a path. You may not always be 100 % on the path, ⁓ it does chart the course for the project. We then, ⁓ depending on what your needs are, we will assist you in the master planning, the concept development, the thematic content. the rides and attractions and negotiation with the suppliers and work all the way through the design process which is very laborious process. Typically takes about for a normal green field project that wouldn't quite on the scale of Disney or Universal. Takes about three years, three and a half years to to build a theme park.
Carl Leibowitz: What makes a good theme park?
Dennids: Well, it's the thematic content. It's making sure that that theme fits in with where you're ⁓ building park in the world. It can be whimsical, it can be historic, it can be futuristic. The list for themes is ⁓ ad infinitum. So getting it right up front. making sure that it fits the marketplace and the people that are going to come and visit is the most critical thing.
Carl Leibowitz: What's your favorite theme park that you've built?
Dennids: Well, we've done so many ⁓ they're all different. Each one, as I always say, Carl has their own persona. We did Lotte World over in Seoul, Korea, and we built that ⁓ in We opened it and we were a part of that project for about seven years. And it was the largest indoor facility of its type with over six and a half million square feet or 650,000 square meters of indoor and outdoor theme park along with retail, food, dining, et cetera. So that was really a very early creative project that we were involved with from basically soup to nuts.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, now they have them, American Dream and the Mall of America. They're doing that all over the place now.
Dennids: Yeah. Well, actually Lottie World came after those parks and we actually were larger than Mall of America and the West Edmonton Mall out in Western Canada. And it became the largest facility, indoor facility in the world. Tremendous theme, high density area. And that theme park today in 2026 will see about 10 million people come this year.
Carl Leibowitz: And so how do you decide about concessions at these various theme parks? Like, if you're putting up a theme park, what are the concessions going to look like?
Dennids: Well, you when you speak about concessions, you have basically two operations. You have the ⁓ and B food and beverage and you have the retail, the ⁓ and souvenirs. And very important to understand market to. get that right up front. And I'll tell you a quick story about how that was missed in Tokyo Disneyland. When Disney built Tokyo Disneyland back in the early 80s, their process was to bring the American concept totally to Tokyo. And they decided to only serve hamburgers and hot dogs and the foods that, know, we're familiar with here in the United States. the people love the thematic content. love the rides and attractions, but they didn't like the food. within ⁓ six months, Disney went through a total ⁓ recalibrating their food and beverage ⁓ to in ⁓ sushi fish. and things that were very typical with the Japanese. So you gotta get it right up front if you wanna make money and make them happy.
Carl Leibowitz: And then I would say we have an insatiable appetite for extreme thrill rides. The closer we can perceive death approaching without dying, the better. Why do you think this is?
Dennids: Well, everybody likes to push that fear factor, if you will. And we've been doing that for 70 years in the industry. Incidentally, our industry in 2026, we say for the theme parks, is 71 years old. That's how old when Disney opened in California. And through the years, we have seen the rides and attractions and particularly the roller coasters get longer, higher and faster. if you look at the new Saudi Arabia, Kenya park that just ⁓ on January or 31st this last year, you'll see that they have a roller coaster that's three and a half miles long, 650 feet high travels at maximum speed 150 miles an hour. And each has to have a windshield on the front of it to keep sand and any other debris of the face of the rider. So longer, faster, higher technology has just been advancing, which allows us to do that. ⁓
Carl Leibowitz: Wow. those rides better ⁓ just say like the Cyclone, which is 100 years old this year in Coney Island? Or are they different rides?
Dennids: They're different rides. mean, ⁓ you have your wooden coasters, you have your steel coasters, have combination of both steel and wood, but you take a ride like the cyclone, which you pointed out. I've written that quite a few times through the years and you still, get an enormous thrill and, that you are going to die when you ride that ride because it is ⁓ so clickety and rickety. and then I can take you on a the Orion at Kings Island ⁓ here in Cincinnati the Diamondback roller coaster and you and I can sit next to each other and have the same kind of conversation we're having right now. Never raise our voice. It's that smooth. ⁓
Carl Leibowitz: Do you still ride these?
Dennids: Yeah, I love the roller coasters. I could do this. can do this, but I can't do this anymore. If get on the monster or the scrambler or something that's circular, I get vertigo these years. ⁓ I can do ⁓ one inversion, don't take me five or six. ⁓ Yeah.
Carl Leibowitz: You Can you go upside down or no? Okay. We talked, you touched on this a little bit, but how did Walt Disney change the face and the idea of theme parks?
Dennids: Well, truly was, ⁓ hear this ⁓ used phrase, a genius, and he really was a genius. Roy, his brother, was the financial expert, the business side of the equation in the family. And ⁓ Disney As we've seen through the 70 plus years, he had these ideas with animation storytelling, and he brought that to life and brought that directly to the consumer. So what he really did was in fact, he came to Cincinnati where I'm located a few times to visit Coney Island here in Cincinnati, not to be confused with Coney Island in New York, because this was known as America's finest amusement park. And it was the forward to Kings Island and he got ideas here. He went to punch train beach ⁓ New Orleans. He went to Riverside in Chicago and he gathered data and ideas and he put it together in a way that had never been done. We've never seen. So he changed the, the, the basics of the business. from carnival festival type attraction to a thematic content with story everywhere you went in the park, whether it was food, ride, attraction, whatever. And that's carried forward, as I said a few minutes ago, to 71 years.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, it seems like it's very thought when you are walking through Disney. As you through Disney, everything is planned, it's thought out. It's not when you're in Tomorrowland or when you go to Space Mountain. It's thought, ⁓ it's a process that thinks, you think, you thought about where you're gonna be. Where are gonna be?
Dennids: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the case whether you're in Epic Universe at Universal. You're at Six Flags in Texas or Georgia or Chicago or Magic Mountain, Kings Island, Kings Dominion. We have a process that we utilize that was utilized by Walt Disney 70 years ago. And let me explain it in Peter Rabbit language. Okay. Think about Everybody goes to a shopping center. You anchor the shopping centers with the big stores at the ends, Northeast, South and West. And in between those anchors might be ⁓ Bloomingdale's or Lord and Taylor or Target or somebody in a big store. You fill the gaps in between with stops that you want people to make along the way to keep them there to shop. And that's exactly what we do simply with the theme park. Not that simple, but it's about balance and flow that we look at very carefully ⁓ we take a strategic approach with ⁓ so we don't create a situation where a park is lopsided. ⁓ So know that when people come into ⁓ a park in the morning, here in the United States, they're acclimated ⁓ to go the right. and they'll flow around to the right. ⁓ know that, okay? ⁓ we will do things to throw that off balance just a little bit, ⁓ them to go to the left to break up that flow of people and move them through the park. So we're working with a technical term ECUs called entertainment capacity units. And theory is, and this is the Disney theory and we still use it today.
Carl Leibowitz: you
Dennids: If we give the guest 1.5 experiences per hour, they're being satisfied. If we shorten that to one experience per hour, they're waiting in line too long. If we... accelerate it and take it up to two or beyond, then they're going through the park too fast, they're leaving too early, and they're not spending the kind of money that we hope they would on additional food and drinks and snacks.
Carl Leibowitz: that's really interesting. When I go to a theme park, I say we ⁓ all the way to the back. So you start really early and you go to the back because no one's there yet. ⁓ then you work your way forward because by the time you get your way forward, people have already been in those lines. that's my thought.
Dennids: Yeah, a lot of people do that. I wrote an article for the Times Dispatch in 1976 for our 200th anniversary and it was entitled, How to Visit a Theme Park. And I told people in this article, when you come in, rather than going to the right, go to the left. You'll miss that mass flow. You'll be against them. And then when everybody else is eating 11 and one and two, and in the lines for the restaurants. then hit your more popular rides because the lines will be less at that point in time. So that still holds true today.
Carl Leibowitz: So let's discuss figures. How much does amusement theme parks generate in the US?
Dennids: Well, last year we asked and the total numbers aren't in yet, but we estimate that somewhere in the neighborhood of 375 million people went to theme parks. those 375 million, there were approximately three billion rides given or taken by those people. each has its financial calculations. I break it for you into very simply two ⁓ areas. the regional parks, which are the Kings islands, the six flags, the Dolly woods, the silver dollar cities, the magic mountains, and then the destination parks, which would be Disneyland, Disney world, universal sea world. They will generate a higher per capita spend just because of the type of attraction they are and, and what the visitor has geared up for. But isn't a ⁓ number ⁓ I can say each part generates $50 million or 20 million in the feasibility. hmm. Yes.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, when you're going to Disney, it's a trip, right? You're planning it. When you're going to Six Flags live in that area, even if it's like 50 miles away, you're only planning to go for the day. It's a day trip.
Dennids: Correct, it's a day trip and you're spending less. You're gonna spend less. The average cost today, Carl, for a family of four to go to Disney World, or let's say Orlando, family of four ⁓ five to seven days runs between seven and $10,000.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah, and that makes sense because if you're going to do it, I would say do it right. go, stay at the property, go ⁓ the food, get the meals included. Otherwise, it's, yeah.
Dennids: Do the carry breakfast. Absolutely. Everything you can possibly do. Cause it's a, it's a, it's a big expenditure and it's a big family outing. It's, huge.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah, and if you're going to Six Flags, it's more a day trip, as we said.
Dennids: Yeah, and we're finding too, as we mature in this industry, 70 years, as I've said several times, season pass has for the regional parks, also the destinations, but for the seasonal parks, you took prior to the merger of Six Flags and Cedar Fair, each company, Aggregate attendance approximated 57 to 60, 6-0 percent come on a season pass basis. So it's huge. Yeah.
Carl Leibowitz: That is huge. And I know the news likes to sensationalize it and accidents do happen on parks and sometimes you'll be watching the news in the morning and you'll see someone stuck on a roller coaster. how safe are rides?
Dennids: I want to tell you, Athene Park is probably the safest place you could be on the planet. you look at us on an actuarial and a numerical basis. Go back to the numbers I just told you, 375 million, 3 billion plus rides given. When you look at where we fall the list of accidents by the consumer product safety commission, we're at the very bottom. More people are hurt. And this is true. Gardening, ⁓ bowling, television, playing billiards, barbecuing, ⁓ and that goes on. on and on and on and on and on
Carl Leibowitz: How do people get hurt watching television? ⁓
Dennids: ⁓ you'll have to ask the CPSC. They're the ones who reported, but that is, that is a true number on the list, but I can tell you this. I was on a television show in Los Angeles once. and question up and the, moderator of that the gal, she said, You know, you're hurting and maiming our children. I said, you know, no, we're not. said, let me tell you something. was less ⁓ for me to come from LAX to this studio ⁓ on the 405 it would be for me to go to every theme park in America and get on their roller coaster and ride it today. But we get the sensationalism and we get that publicity, which is understandable. People come to theme park, an amusement park for a good time, not to ⁓ have an accident or be But we are very safe and let me just say one more thing and I'll be quiet. It's because of our own inspections internally, our insurance inspections, our state inspections, our third party inspections, and our ride manufacturer inspections. Those are constantly going on and every ride that you get on in an amusement theme park every day has been inspected before that has been green tagged and said ready to ride.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah, I always double check when I'm on there that my seatbelt's on, because I'm always nervous that it's not on right.
Dennids: We've had situations where, uh, typically if there's a, if there is an accident on the ride, it's one of three things. It's either mechanical engineering. It's ride operator didn't do something right. Make sure your belt was on and double check you or in the most prevalent is rider. The rider, they did something. They tried to stand up, disobeyed the signs that are on all the rides.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah, and that's a no-no. ⁓ So asked this a lot on a lot of my podcasts about AI because AI is so relevant today. How is AI going to play in amusement parks in the future and how does it play in your business model?
Dennids: That's a big donut. Well. You know, we're we just scratched the surface with AI and I sit here with my Televisions on in my office watching the stock markets and the talking heads all day long and that's all they talk about is AI But we're already using it in the industry. We're using it in several ways I wrote an article on this ⁓ recently about for labor. ⁓ gonna help us with labor. It's gonna help us ⁓ and factor and figure our schedules and our labor to keep costs down so we aren't heavy on bad weather days or attended days. It's going to help us in our thematic content and our ability to increase the ⁓ ⁓ in parks. What we're seeing come along Carl technologically now through AI and other forums. happening so fast. It's kind of like how we saw the microwave change in our cell phone change. ⁓ week there's something else. And the great thing is we're using this positively and being used both by the operators, the park ⁓ and the who build these rides. They're weaving it in to their designs.
Carl Leibowitz: what is the future of theme and amusement parks look
Dennids: Well, it looks very good. mean, if you go back to the number I told you, 375 million in the US roughly globally last year, that was over 600 million. Okay. if you look at the expansion that we have had we are forecasting, you have ⁓ Disney building a $10 billion park in Abu Dhabi. You have Universal Studios building $7 $8 billion ⁓ park England and also over in Saudi Arabia they're proposing. And ⁓ only those big companies, the giants, You have the local expanding. So, there really is no signs of it letting up. I mean, right now with the war in Iran, the conflict, cetera, that's slowed everything down, but ⁓ it stop us. And it comes back to my comment about common denominator among all people is they want to have fun.
Carl Leibowitz: And do you see small being turned into mini amusement parks So.
Dennids: No, we're seeing all different sizes right now. We're working with a group out in Western US, Northwest US, and they're building a small family theme park by today's standards, which would be a couple of hundred million dollars, I should say. So not really small, but thematically it fits the content.
Carl Leibowitz: Yeah.
Dennids: of the of where they're building. It the ⁓ essence of the of the area. And we we're with one down in ⁓ Texas. and it's a small family, young children's type park and will come on board by the end of the year. So ⁓ what seeing Carl is independence parks still here in the US, not on the size of a huge six flags right now. But we're also seeing universal They're opening a park over in Frisco, Texas, which is about 300, I think it's up to 500 million now, but it's geared towards children. We're seeing the Peppa pigs, we're seeing the Bluey, we're seeing the Barbie, we're seeing a lot of development.
Carl Leibowitz: So when you're spending three, four, $500 million, how long does it take to start earning a profit?
Dennids: Well, depends on the market and we typically in our feasibility studies. We want to see an internal rate of return and IRR of about 25 % initially and on top of that we'd like to see a payback and I'm using a debt to equity ratio of 50-50 somebody's putting in 50 % of that that capital and borrowing 50 of a payback within five to six years, less than seven. That's typically what we work on. That's what they like to see.
Carl Leibowitz: As we start to wrap up, is there anything I should have asked you that I did not ask you?
Dennids: I think it's interesting to note that theme park industry in the United States is huge. If you took all professional paid sports, hockey, everything, baseball, NBA, everything, and you roll them together, the theme park still. Industry is still larger than all of the sporting industry rolled together ⁓ still ⁓ and remains the last bastion of wholesome family entertainment because it's the place where grandma and grandpa, mom and dad, the kids, grandkids can all go, can be together, spread out, see different things. when you break that down, on a value, on an hourly basis, yeah, tickets expensive, but everything's gotten expensive. ⁓ on an hour by hour basis, it's still a great price value. equation for the the guess. So we're.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, if you go to a football game, everyone has to enjoy the football game in the family. But if you go to an amusement park, there's things for everybody to do. And you don't all have to be together as a family the whole day.
Dennids: Now, you look at the, just come back to it and take that one step further. you look at a concert, go to a Taylor Swift or an Eagles or something, ⁓ paying enormous amounts of money for 90 minutes to two hours. The typical visitation a theme park by family ⁓ is six to seven hours. So break it down on an hourly basis. That's what we did.
Carl Leibowitz: Well, Dennis Beagle, known as Mr. Theme Park, the founder and owner of International Theme Park Services. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much out there for listening. As always, let me know what you think. Put your thoughts in the comments section. And until next time, everyone, be safe.
