Misty: Hello everyone and welcome to another of Zero Fs Era. ⁓ Sonia Taroghi is many things. a journalist, an entrepreneur, she's a world traveler, ⁓ she's fearless when it comes to cycling through the streets of London, and is so much more. ⁓ I've been very fortunate to have worked with Sonia many times over the past couple of years and consider her a very good friend. And I have always been blown away by not only her humor, but her confidence and the way that she is just very authentically herself. When launching this podcast, I had people in mind who I thought of as being in their Zero Fs Era and Sonia, in particular, really, I think, is mayor of Zero Fs. Era Town. ⁓ just really kind of embodies that spirit. ⁓ I'm very happy to finally have her on the show to be able to share Sonia and her words of wisdom with all of you. ⁓ Sonia, ⁓ to Zero Fs Era. ⁓
Sonia: Thank you for having me, Misty. And I feel very honoured to to to be on your show and ⁓ and yeah, thank you for all your great words. ⁓ I hopefully will live up to to the description you made of ⁓ And I consider you as well a dear friend. So ⁓ thank you for having me.
Misty: I have I have no doubt this is gonna be a very fun and ⁓ insightful conversation. So as you may know, we start every Zero Fs conversation with the truth that we don't say aloud. So I'll ask you, Sonia, what's your truth?
Sonia: I'd say ⁓ My truth is probably that I'm Sonia, first and and and foremost. I I I try not to, you know, be influenced by the labels that we tend to put on ourselves or others tend to put on us. And ⁓ obviously with everything that happened in the recent years, we've we've seen a lot of movement. ⁓ you know, coming off the ground. ⁓ and ⁓ And I always say when I'm going into those conversations that I don't necessarily identify as a woman, as a Black woman, as an Arabic woman, as a French person, as as nothing else but me, with all my quirks and complexities and and you know, ups and downs, and that's how I tend to navigate life, you know.
Misty: So it's That's interesting and I wanna talk about the labels in just a moment, but when you talk about there's been lots of movement in recent years, tell me more about that and what you mean in that respect.
Sonia: ⁓ I I would Let's say maybe focus on at least one ⁓ has been, you know, more around me, which is a lot of inclusivity. ⁓ for example. And and I've you know, I've often been asked, you know, how ⁓ do you think, you know, this could be more inclusive ⁓ or the other or how do you feel, you know, about these policies or or or or or these programs and ⁓ you know, I've I've been in a company for for ten years, an American company, before going freelance ⁓ a few years ago and ⁓ and and it was a key subject. ⁓ and I feel that as an umbrella thought, it's the label, you know, who in the end slow down inclusivity. you know. Because we spend our time trying to find boxes, create new boxes and fill them and saying this is inclusivity because we filled all the boxes with all the different labels that are in the world. Whereas if we were just considering one big box and put everyone that wanted to be in that box, we wouldn't have to worry. So this might seem very, you know, ⁓ idealistic, I I I I I agree. but I I truly believe that we've come far enough to be able to go down that route now. You know, Maybe not years ago, but now I think the time has come to break those labels, those boxes, and just open the door to whoever.
Misty: First of all I think there's nothing wrong with being idealistic. I think we need more more of that thinking in the world. ⁓ but it's an It's an interesting point. I It feels like the concept of being in more inclusive had a good
Sonia: Well,
Misty: you know, origin, like people th their hearts were in the right place, but it became about checking the box. And you know, to your putting people in a box and then checking that box as opposed to truly living it and demonstrating th those values.
Sonia: Yes. Absolutely. And and and I think, you know, it's interesting when you're talking about, ⁓ you ticking the boxes because it also brings me back to and and that goes also to the the title of your your your podcast. ⁓ Ticking the boxes has been ⁓ one the biggest pressures of my life. ⁓ and And realized that I always felt like I wasn't ticking the boxes, you know. ⁓ Even if I was being told that I was doing a great job, I would still feel like an imposter, you know? And it's that famous imposter syndrome that almost been overused, but when you feel it, it it's it's a real thing, you know, because you really feel that you don't belong in the room. You don't believe You don't belong in that box, you don't belong at that table. Like there are so many expressions that we've been using. And and I feel that Those boxes we create are also what I use to impose, you know, that imposter syndrome on people, you know, by telling them, Well, you should have done this, you should have done that. And And at some point you you really tend to think, well, what about I brought? What about what I thought? You know, I cannot be wrong all the time. It's not possible. No one is wrong all the time. Surely there's something I do right. But But there's this little voice, you know, that builds up in your head and and you end up thinking everything you do is wrong. And even if no one is telling you that straight in your face, that's how your mind tends to build up and and that's what you end up thinking. You know, and and Step by step I've started just pulling myself away from that. You know, getting more y You said I'm one of the most confident person, you know, well I'm not I'm not. I'm trying to work really hard to actually gain that confidence back.
Misty: By all accounts, from those of us sitting around you, you absolutely have. ⁓ But it's interesting to hear you say it it was the boxes that you were checking for yourself, it was boxes that society was checking for for you. I've heard you say something else that really kind of resonated and kind of stopping my tracks. You said imposter syndrome isn't something we're born with, it's something we're taught. And Tell me more about what you mean about that. Is that what you mean in terms of those boxes that you were were trying to check?
Sonia: Yes, I think it's not only the boxes that you're supposed to check, but then also what happened when you try, you know, to to kind of break free from those constraints. Because I'm I'm Arabic, my heritage is Arabic, born in France. So so obviously, you know, my my mom ⁓ she she wanted me to have a stable job, to to get married, to have kids and she lament. I'm I'm sorry, Mum. ⁓ I I think she lost all hope. But but but there is this you know, expectation, even to this day, like a woman listened to the man. It it doesn't mean that you cannot work, you cannot have your own you know, hobbies or whatnot, but they are just things that are very set in stone. And ⁓ and and From a very young age, you know, I did things that she wouldn't understand, you know, when I decided to study drama. She was like, what is this? You're you're fourteen. You You should be wanting to become a secretary of ⁓ a pharmacist. Literally that was her dream for me to become pharmacist. ⁓ But it was very interesting to to to actually see her you know break free from from those preconceptions, ⁓ be more open to the the possibilities that were open to me ⁓ and to really encourage me in all my endeavors. And for that I I'll be forever grateful. ⁓ But at the same time, and that was the kind of the funny thing, as I was breaking free from those constraints, I ended up having people telling me, ⁓ this was great, the thing that you did, but you you got help, right? ⁓ that that was amazing. That the you know, I was a a union. I remember I remember specifically this This professor, he he was amazed by the job that I had done and I had pulled my heart on it. It would it took me months. And in the end he looked at me, he was like, That was really impressive. Who helped you? And you're You're twenty-one years old and and you're like, Well, no one. And he was like, hmm. And I didn't get the best grade for for that work. But you see how insidiously it it
Misty: Yeah. How he just diminished your work and diminished you and what you are capable of with one question.
Sonia: and guess it's all and he wasn't to be honest, he wasn't the first one to do it, and he wasn't the last. And so you think about it all these years later, and you think ⁓ it must have had impact. And this is probably where y you think, ⁓ maybe I I wasn't meant to have that amazing grade, maybe I'm I'm I'm not meant to have that that job, you know, because you think, ⁓ I thought I did a good job. He told me I did a good job. But within the next second he almost denied me the good job that I did.
Misty: Yeah. Will. Yeah, I mean again i he he's complimenting you and then telling you but you're not really worthy of that compliment because they don't believe that you accomplished this. So I mean We talk about imposter syndrome as it being sort of this internal flaw that you don't have the confidence to be able to, you know, s sit in a room, stand in a room and feel like you belong there, but really it's a response to what you're being told and what's being given. back to you when you put something out in the world.
Sonia: Absolutely. Because when when you see very confident people, ⁓ ⁓ we talk about physical confidence, you know, if you tell someone that they're beautiful, they will feel beautiful. You know? And we said beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that's absolutely true. So so ⁓ even that you have to to learn to accept compliments. you know. And and and actually that was also something that took me a while, you know. Now now I say compliment to myself. you know. Exactly. No one can deny them. and ⁓ yes, I I It it took a while to just say thank you, you know, and to take it for what it is, because I would always think, ⁓ they said it because of this, or they said it because of
Misty: Those are the best compliments, because you know they're true.
Sonia: of that or I w I would make a joke and be like, ⁓ it's my makeup, you know, or it's the dress, or it's the and you know, you know how we can be, you know, deflective. and and now I'm just like, Yeah, thank you very much, you know
Misty: Which is what you you should do, but I will tell you, I have the toughest time taking compliments. Like I really don't even know what to do with them. I think it's something we should teach little girls from the time they come into this world of how to accept a compliment and be gracious and not ever expect a compliment, but how to accept it and internalize it. And while other people's opinions shouldn't be how you base your life off of, it does feel good when people tell you nice things about yourself. So
Sonia: Yes. Yes.
Misty: so take them, internalize them, use them as you as you can and you want and you should for good. But I I think we tend to almost downplay compliments and and don't teach little girls how to accept them.
Sonia: Yes, no, absolutely. And and also understand that and and that kind of touch base to what I was saying earlier, it has nothing to do with your background, your religion, your skin color, where you're from, your like it's just being your person. you know? And and I think that's also very important because you know Like you see me like this, for example, I've been wearing weaves and wigs, you know, for years on end and because I wanted to, you know. And it's very funny because even today some people who saw me before and and and now since I've gone, you know, buzzcut and they're like, ⁓ it's it's it looks great, you know, really like stay like this and ⁓ you know, you look so much better. And I know they don't mean anything bad, but I'm like it doesn't matter to me because I wasn't trying to look better or worse, you know, it was how I was feeling.
Misty: Right, exactly. How you How you wanted to see yourself in that moment.
Sonia: exactly. I know there's been a lot of narratives around, you know, Black people being ashamed of their hair and ⁓ and you know. And ⁓ and and again it's like don't put any thought in my head or in my mouth because I've never expressed that I was ashamed or annoyed or anything like that. If anything, it's always been a pleasure for me. you know, to do my own wigs to have fun, to change styles and and and basically to never lie about it as well. Because, you know, if you're curious about it, if you want to know more about that part of, you know, mm our beauty industry and and beauty tricks, be my guest. I'm happy to share. ⁓ the all the years and Even today it's interesting again to see those boxes and how people can react even to a haircut, you know.
Misty: Yeah, it is really interesting. it i even when you No matter what you do, when you change your appearance, people weigh in, generally they're saying nice things, but it really is about how you want to view yourself, how you feel, what makes you comfortable in your own skin. And it's so interesting how those compliments or or those ⁓ comments rather can almost make you less comfortable in your own skin because then you start to second guess what you were doing before.
Sonia: Yes. Yes. Ac actually that's that that's exactly it, because you were like, Mm, why didn't I look good before? I thought I did. but but thank you. Thank you for telling me. yes, no, ⁓ absolutely. And and I I think there's
Misty: Yeah.
Sonia: And that's w kind of what I like about the title of your podcast. I think as we grow up as well, as we ⁓ as we navigate life, there's so many things that you know we we learn to kind of let go of. You know? and and I think again I I wasn't ashamed or anything of my hair, for example, but I always thought I have a big forehead, you know? Don't say no, I know I do, but it's okay. It's my it's it's my brain. It takes a it takes up a lot of space.
Misty: I think it's amazing. I have the world's tiniest head, which I really am worried about what that what people think about my brain size. I have so much hair because I have the tiniest head. I have to wear like children's glasses. I have the tiniest head. So
Sonia: Yeah. But you see how we are we with ourselves and and and and just just embracing my my forehead for me was just like liberating you know.
Misty: You embrace your head 'cause I've embraced my tiny one. So I wanna talk for a minute about labels because I find this an interesting ⁓
Sonia: Yeah.
Misty: an interesting insight into how people view themselves. And Overall, we live in a world that really loves labels, but I like how you said I'm just Sonia, which by the way is an amazing thing to be. And you don't necessarily need those labels. I wonder a little bit if that is generational at all. Because as I was thinking through it when read I when I when I was reading notes ⁓ I I've kind of grown up as labels as part of my identity. Like I'm a woman, I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I am a professional, I am I'm all of these things and it's helped sort of establish my identity. But then Because I really wanted it to be my own identity and not somebody else's. Because when I think back to like my mother's generation and before that, you didn't really have your own identity. You were Mrs. whatever your husband's name was. So like I've never referred to myself as Mrs. Mark Bellis. Like I that's not even a label I can wrap my head around. Not that I don't adore my husband, but I don't even think he sees me that way. What's that?
Sonia: We don't even know who this man is. We don't even know who that man is.
Misty: who is this person? ⁓ So I wonder this is sort of the evolution of where we're ⁓ at, because ⁓ know, ⁓ ⁓ I'm with labels, but that's because I came from this generation. You're younger than I am, so you're reaching a point where you're like, I don't need all of that other stuff to to say who I am, just this is me. ⁓
Sonia: I ⁓ You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right and and ⁓ that's probably the reason why ⁓ labels annoy me because ⁓ ⁓ always feels like everything we stay we're saying today is is stemming from you know the the the battles of the previous generations. and And it's almost like, ⁓ we're going backward. You know? It's like, well, s someone like you, like you said, well, you you you have those labels, but at the same time, that was already an evolution from you know, compared to your mom. ⁓ and and and Today I'm I'm able to speak the way I speak because you know I lived all these experiences and I had the chance, at least in my environment, because we know how the world works, unfortunately. But I was lucky enough to be able to say I want to be Sonia and nothing else. And I guess that's exactly the reason why I'm like, if we fought enough and we are lucky enough, you know, in in in our, let's say, developed countries, to to be able to say that and express that, then then let's embrace it. Why would you want to go back and be like, ⁓ no, actually I'm not myself, I'm not an ⁓ ⁓ I'm part of a whole. If that's your prerogative, again, I'm I'm no one to you know, because maybe you feel comfort, maybe you you you like the community, maybe you know what I mean? I'm not judging the reason why, but I don't want that to identify me. That's my truth at least.
Misty: Yeah, no, it's it's not that it's wrong, it's right for somebody else. You know, they're not wrong if that's what they want. But we do have a choice at this point that we didn't have twenty, thirty, forty years ago. That was unheard of. So if you have that choice, then then why not just be yourself without all the labels around.
Sonia: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And I and I think that's exactly one of the points that We sometimes even tend to lose in our pursuit of of of the truth, of the the openness, of the it's It is actually the ⁓ to think the way you wanna think. You ⁓ And I think that's the biggest ⁓ ⁓ you ⁓ And I'm not talking about hate speech or anything like that, don't get me wrong. But I'm saying that we have the liberty to live the life the way we want to live it. And if we think about the women, for example, well, Some women don't want to have kids. Some women want to stay home and have a bunch of them. ⁓ some some women just want to be married, work a little bit, have fun, go on holiday, not become a boss babe and so what? Good for you, girl. You go. You see what I mean? And
Misty: Yeah. Yeah, Exactly.
Sonia: Absolutely. And that's our luxury. I would say that's really the luxury of our times. It's having the you know, the choice, you know, and we should all respect that choice.
Misty: So want to talk a little bit about your career because you have had this amazing career. and ⁓ you know, You've been in luxury travel, writing about luxury travel for for quite some time. But this is kind of a fine line because we're talking about how let's just call it what it is, DEI has sort of become again that checked box, so that you could say that there's representation, but as a luxury travel writer, are there many people who look like you? And so are we falling short there by not inviting more people in? And again, not about checking the box, but being more inviting into the industry.
Sonia: Yes. ⁓ Truth be told, no. ⁓ I don't see a lot of journalists that look like me. and I would say that even though it's diverse, ⁓ I guess the industry still works in silo. you know, Because I'm sure that if I was to go to a trade show in Africa. Maybe. And I'm saying maybe because even even then I see a lot of you know wider journalists in the different posts and and whatnot. but I don't know I don't know if it's a question of integrating. you know, ⁓ a more diverse set of journalists or or just changing the way the luxury hospitality media operates. because The reality is that there's a lot of who's who, who knows who, and and I think even if we were to try to encourage like new generations of of journalists or or just media professional like PR communication. We have to be more inclusive, you know, in the sense that not everyone has the network. Not everyone grew up in a family that's gonna be, you know, encouraging to do this or that. And I I was saying that for myself, you know, I wasn't encouraged to do TV back then. you know, My family thought I was ludicrous, ⁓ or or to be a comedian or anything like that. So So I think we we need to go back to the roots of it all, you know, and it comes from childhood. You know, Who are the people that are less likely to enter those fields? You know, and I I I when I When I think about the US, for example, you know, it seems like you're more encouraged to have like a sports ⁓ you know tuition than anything else. And it's almost like you only if you don't have money, your only option is either to be top of the class or to do sports. Maybe there could be a middle ground, you know?
Misty: So Do you think it's because y you know, the the path isn't there or it isn't obvious and there's not even awareness that this is a career you you can have. okay.
Sonia: I think I think both because it's I guess it's within the like within the path that you end up learning about your options. you know, like I think sometimes you even ask like a twenty five year old, they wouldn't even know one job exists and and and they are you know, born and raised in Paris and ⁓ you there's so many jobs in the world that you cannot know them all. ⁓ but but I definitely think that you know, luxury can can be already intimidating, you know. So at this same
Misty: I ⁓ especially if it's not a world you came from. It's not the world I came from. So it's a a world I had to learn and get used to and figure out how to navigate, without having that background.
Sonia: So add to that not knowing, then being, you know, intimidated, then potentially feeling like an imposter, then feeling that, you know, you are part of a minority because everyone is telling you, you're a woman, you need help, you're Black you need help, you're this, you need help, you know? ⁓ And and then you're like, ⁓ so if I don't have the help, potentially I won't be able to succeed? Exactly. So see, that's that's also the the quota idea that I'm I'm against because I do feel that these type of quotas and ticking the boxes, they are also the ones that instill that thought in someone's head, like, What do you mean? I'm I'm I'm part of a diversity program, you know? but but but still we should
Misty: Yeah, I can't do this on my own.
Sonia: really at the beginning have those diversity program but in a way of information, you know, awareness. Exactly. And thinking, okay, let's think about the school that might be, you know, less favored and might have less access to this kind of you know, they don't go to the theater as much, for example, you know, they've never been to the theatre as kids. They've never been to a musical, you know, they
Misty: Yeah, an awareness as opposed to a mandate.
Sonia: ⁓ just and just try to open up I think people's minds ⁓ from that letting them naturally have this will to become luxury hospitality journalist or or hairdresser. It doesn't matter. But but but just giving them, you know, ⁓ the open mindness.
Misty: Yeah, the exposure to it to even know it's an option.
Sonia: And once you have the exposure, then we can see, okay, are we being excluding people or not? You know, Because if we're not excluding people but we're opening the door to everyone, then ⁓ need for DEI because you you already have a variety of people to just embrace.
Misty: But hopefully the industry is able to create and and cultivate this next generation so that they do have exposure to it to just make it I think more just maybe more welcoming to invite more people in.
Sonia: Yeah, absolutely. I I think so. And because the industry is also very global, I imagine it could eas it could be easy to create better coalitions, you know, and and and better networks of journalists across the world. ⁓ and and and maybe having way of maybe inviting more journalists from other continents and vice versa and and really creating, you know, this is travel. after all. So i it shouldn't be that difficult to have people.
Misty: Well, yes, I mean it it's really kind of based on being open minded and learning from others and embracing the differences and and all of that. That's really sort of the beautiful thing about travel is that it opens your mind to all of these things.
Sonia: Yes, no, absol absolutely. And I always love, you know, I was recently to to a summit and I f I loved there was like Asians and e again unfortunately not many from Africa but but there were Asian Americans, Europeans and we were from different countries, different, you know, culture and ⁓ I don't I don't wanna sound like Disney, ⁓ like Disney but But it o it's always so nice. Even when, you know, you have broken English and and broken this and broken French and broken whatever, you end up understanding each other and and and spending an amazing time. So ⁓ that's really what I love about the industry. So I don't want my comment to diminish, you know, of course what this industry is bringing, but but that's the thing. We shouldn't just rest on the successes. We should, you know, strive to maybe do better.
Misty: It's a valid point. But yes, I mean I think that those of us who are in this industry fall in love with it for all of those reasons, but opening it up to more who can experience it is really what we're after, not just from a journalism standpoint, but from a service industry in general is really broadening people's ⁓ perception of what a service industry is and what hospitality means and how it can be your career path.
Sonia: Yes, I I I absolutely agree. And and I think hospitality, you know, where Whether it's in a luxury hotel or or anywhere else, it's it's about welcoming people and understanding them, ⁓ and and understanding where they come from. and you know, I I volunteer for Crisis every Christmas and and that's also something that is very interesting because that's what we do, it's hospitality, you know, over Christmas. And and and you tend to think about, ⁓ who are these people? You know, they don't have the same life as me, or at least not right now, but then you realise maybe they did. You know, you listen to the story and you're like, ⁓ my god, this person was me ten, twenty years ago, but something happened, you know? so so it's always about how you you you try to connect with other people. If you even if you don't think that from the get go there's something there, but actually there might be. You know, so let's not be afraid of that difference and and thinking ⁓ no, it's not gonna ⁓ it's not gonna mesh. Well mm it might as well mesh, you know.
Misty: Yeah, I mean in a way it it's it's sort of on us to also be mentors to find people who are either interested or just starting that path and and bring them bring them in as well. ⁓
Sonia: Absolutely.
Misty: I know we have talked about you being just Sonia as the truth that you don't say aloud, though I do think you say it aloud. ⁓ I want to talk about your permission slip for a moment, because that's the other part of the Zero Fs conversation, is to talk about what do you give yourself permission to do now? What is something that no longer serves you that you have just let go of? moved up, moved beyond.
Sonia: I guess and it's kind of relates as well to what I was saying earlier about, you know, childhood and expectations and and I think Expectations You know, because Any expectations that I don't have for myself, I'm trying to let go of. And and I'm not talking about responsibilities. I'm really talking about expectations because it's a different type of pressure. and and I'm trying to let go of that, you know, the pressure of friends, society, professional network, the parents, you name it you know, because it kinda stops you in your track, I feel. at least, you know, it stops you or it slows you down because you spend so much time thinking, well, should I do this? Because someone said I should and and then you you second guess yourself and you think what are they gonna say? What are they gonna think? And ⁓ and You know, my professional path has been all over the place. ⁓ And sometimes I look back at it, even even to come on on this podcast, I was like, ⁓ my god, I'm I'm I'm nothing compared to the other guests. you know? And And I I second guessed myself and then I was like, ⁓ whatever, you know, actually I'm just ⁓ ⁓ that's my superpower. And also I'm gonna get to have this amazing chat with Misty, and it's gonna be lovely. So yes, let's do ⁓ and
Misty: Then you were like, I'm just Sonia and that's pretty awesome.
Sonia: But yes, I think really in general I'm I'm really getting to that point and ⁓ it it's fairly recent where yeah I I don't give ⁓ an F
Misty: in your Zero Fs Era ⁓ and ⁓ is that advice others as well? Get wida get rid of the should haves in your ⁓ in your mind.
Sonia: Abs absolutely. Yes. Yes. ⁓ absolutely. Because at the end of the day, if if you're if you feel like you're disappointing yourself, it's gonna be way more impactful than disappointing anyone else. So I feel like if you're able to look at yourself in the mirror and being happy with where you're at, whatever that happiness looked like, then who is anyone else to deny you that? So that's where I'm at.
Misty: It seems like a really good place to ⁓ So ⁓ Sonia, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for the conversation. So glad I get to see my friend. Normally I'm seeing you in ⁓ someplace out in the world. It's not often that we're in the same space, ⁓ ⁓ it's been really nice to to get to see you on my screen ⁓ So
Sonia: Nice. Yeah. Same. Thank you so much for having me.
Misty: Absolutely. Well, thank you everyone for joining in our conversation today. And remember us to follow, Remember to follow us on Instagram @ zero_fs_era or you can email us at zerofsera@gmail.com. ⁓ We definitely want hear from you, would love to hear your take on this, so please do reach out. ⁓ And remember to ⁓ all out of for the things that just don't matter so that you can focus on the things that do. ⁓ Thanks everyone. Til time, ⁓ bye ⁓ I tripped over our outro, but otherwise you can fix that. Sonia, how do you feel?
Sonia: We we I feel good, except that I feel like I'm sweating like a pig but
Misty: You're you're listening, so yes.
Sonia: No, I mean how how do you feel? Like hopefully I didn't say anything too controversial or whatever.
Misty: No, I don't think so. I think there's a couple of maybe provocative statements in there, which I think there's nothing wrong with making people think. So I think being provocative in a positive way of let me think about this from a different angle is is a great thing.
Sonia: Okay, okay. Well if you think that was interesting enough and you know, hopefully I won't be the last listened to episode of all. ⁓
Misty: No, actually I'm the le the less listened to. Mine was the the lowest rated on one of them, so don't worry. ⁓ it would never be you.
Sonia: Well, because it was the intro, come on. It was probably the first episode.
Misty: Manda, what do think from your side?
Sonia: Right.
Misty: Excellent. The sound was going a little in and out on my side. Are you able to was it okay on your side?
Sonia: Okay.
Sonia: Thank you for having me, Misty. And I feel very honoured to to to be on your show and ⁓ and yeah, thank you for all your great words. ⁓ I hopefully will live up to to the description you made of ⁓ And I consider you as well a dear friend. So ⁓ thank you for having me.
Misty: I have I have no doubt this is gonna be a very fun and ⁓ insightful conversation. So as you may know, we start every Zero Fs conversation with the truth that we don't say aloud. So I'll ask you, Sonia, what's your truth?
Sonia: I'd say ⁓ My truth is probably that I'm Sonia, first and and and foremost. I I I try not to, you know, be influenced by the labels that we tend to put on ourselves or others tend to put on us. And ⁓ obviously with everything that happened in the recent years, we've we've seen a lot of movement. ⁓ you know, coming off the ground. ⁓ and ⁓ And I always say when I'm going into those conversations that I don't necessarily identify as a woman, as a Black woman, as an Arabic woman, as a French person, as as nothing else but me, with all my quirks and complexities and and you know, ups and downs, and that's how I tend to navigate life, you know.
Misty: So it's That's interesting and I wanna talk about the labels in just a moment, but when you talk about there's been lots of movement in recent years, tell me more about that and what you mean in that respect.
Sonia: ⁓ I I would Let's say maybe focus on at least one ⁓ has been, you know, more around me, which is a lot of inclusivity. ⁓ for example. And and I've you know, I've often been asked, you know, how ⁓ do you think, you know, this could be more inclusive ⁓ or the other or how do you feel, you know, about these policies or or or or or these programs and ⁓ you know, I've I've been in a company for for ten years, an American company, before going freelance ⁓ a few years ago and ⁓ and and it was a key subject. ⁓ and I feel that as an umbrella thought, it's the label, you know, who in the end slow down inclusivity. you know. Because we spend our time trying to find boxes, create new boxes and fill them and saying this is inclusivity because we filled all the boxes with all the different labels that are in the world. Whereas if we were just considering one big box and put everyone that wanted to be in that box, we wouldn't have to worry. So this might seem very, you know, ⁓ idealistic, I I I I I agree. but I I truly believe that we've come far enough to be able to go down that route now. You know, Maybe not years ago, but now I think the time has come to break those labels, those boxes, and just open the door to whoever.
Misty: First of all I think there's nothing wrong with being idealistic. I think we need more more of that thinking in the world. ⁓ but it's an It's an interesting point. I It feels like the concept of being in more inclusive had a good
Sonia: Well,
Misty: you know, origin, like people th their hearts were in the right place, but it became about checking the box. And you know, to your putting people in a box and then checking that box as opposed to truly living it and demonstrating th those values.
Sonia: Yes. Absolutely. And and and I think, you know, it's interesting when you're talking about, ⁓ you ticking the boxes because it also brings me back to and and that goes also to the the title of your your your podcast. ⁓ Ticking the boxes has been ⁓ one the biggest pressures of my life. ⁓ and And realized that I always felt like I wasn't ticking the boxes, you know. ⁓ Even if I was being told that I was doing a great job, I would still feel like an imposter, you know? And it's that famous imposter syndrome that almost been overused, but when you feel it, it it's it's a real thing, you know, because you really feel that you don't belong in the room. You don't believe You don't belong in that box, you don't belong at that table. Like there are so many expressions that we've been using. And and I feel that Those boxes we create are also what I use to impose, you know, that imposter syndrome on people, you know, by telling them, Well, you should have done this, you should have done that. And And at some point you you really tend to think, well, what about I brought? What about what I thought? You know, I cannot be wrong all the time. It's not possible. No one is wrong all the time. Surely there's something I do right. But But there's this little voice, you know, that builds up in your head and and you end up thinking everything you do is wrong. And even if no one is telling you that straight in your face, that's how your mind tends to build up and and that's what you end up thinking. You know, and and Step by step I've started just pulling myself away from that. You know, getting more y You said I'm one of the most confident person, you know, well I'm not I'm not. I'm trying to work really hard to actually gain that confidence back.
Misty: By all accounts, from those of us sitting around you, you absolutely have. ⁓ But it's interesting to hear you say it it was the boxes that you were checking for yourself, it was boxes that society was checking for for you. I've heard you say something else that really kind of resonated and kind of stopping my tracks. You said imposter syndrome isn't something we're born with, it's something we're taught. And Tell me more about what you mean about that. Is that what you mean in terms of those boxes that you were were trying to check?
Sonia: Yes, I think it's not only the boxes that you're supposed to check, but then also what happened when you try, you know, to to kind of break free from those constraints. Because I'm I'm Arabic, my heritage is Arabic, born in France. So so obviously, you know, my my mom ⁓ she she wanted me to have a stable job, to to get married, to have kids and she lament. I'm I'm sorry, Mum. ⁓ I I think she lost all hope. But but but there is this you know, expectation, even to this day, like a woman listened to the man. It it doesn't mean that you cannot work, you cannot have your own you know, hobbies or whatnot, but they are just things that are very set in stone. And ⁓ and and From a very young age, you know, I did things that she wouldn't understand, you know, when I decided to study drama. She was like, what is this? You're you're fourteen. You You should be wanting to become a secretary of ⁓ a pharmacist. Literally that was her dream for me to become pharmacist. ⁓ But it was very interesting to to to actually see her you know break free from from those preconceptions, ⁓ be more open to the the possibilities that were open to me ⁓ and to really encourage me in all my endeavors. And for that I I'll be forever grateful. ⁓ But at the same time, and that was the kind of the funny thing, as I was breaking free from those constraints, I ended up having people telling me, ⁓ this was great, the thing that you did, but you you got help, right? ⁓ that that was amazing. That the you know, I was a a union. I remember I remember specifically this This professor, he he was amazed by the job that I had done and I had pulled my heart on it. It would it took me months. And in the end he looked at me, he was like, That was really impressive. Who helped you? And you're You're twenty-one years old and and you're like, Well, no one. And he was like, hmm. And I didn't get the best grade for for that work. But you see how insidiously it it
Misty: Yeah. How he just diminished your work and diminished you and what you are capable of with one question.
Sonia: and guess it's all and he wasn't to be honest, he wasn't the first one to do it, and he wasn't the last. And so you think about it all these years later, and you think ⁓ it must have had impact. And this is probably where y you think, ⁓ maybe I I wasn't meant to have that amazing grade, maybe I'm I'm I'm not meant to have that that job, you know, because you think, ⁓ I thought I did a good job. He told me I did a good job. But within the next second he almost denied me the good job that I did.
Misty: Yeah. Will. Yeah, I mean again i he he's complimenting you and then telling you but you're not really worthy of that compliment because they don't believe that you accomplished this. So I mean We talk about imposter syndrome as it being sort of this internal flaw that you don't have the confidence to be able to, you know, s sit in a room, stand in a room and feel like you belong there, but really it's a response to what you're being told and what's being given. back to you when you put something out in the world.
Sonia: Absolutely. Because when when you see very confident people, ⁓ ⁓ we talk about physical confidence, you know, if you tell someone that they're beautiful, they will feel beautiful. You know? And we said beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that's absolutely true. So so ⁓ even that you have to to learn to accept compliments. you know. And and and actually that was also something that took me a while, you know. Now now I say compliment to myself. you know. Exactly. No one can deny them. and ⁓ yes, I I It it took a while to just say thank you, you know, and to take it for what it is, because I would always think, ⁓ they said it because of this, or they said it because of
Misty: Those are the best compliments, because you know they're true.
Sonia: of that or I w I would make a joke and be like, ⁓ it's my makeup, you know, or it's the dress, or it's the and you know, you know how we can be, you know, deflective. and and now I'm just like, Yeah, thank you very much, you know
Misty: Which is what you you should do, but I will tell you, I have the toughest time taking compliments. Like I really don't even know what to do with them. I think it's something we should teach little girls from the time they come into this world of how to accept a compliment and be gracious and not ever expect a compliment, but how to accept it and internalize it. And while other people's opinions shouldn't be how you base your life off of, it does feel good when people tell you nice things about yourself. So
Sonia: Yes. Yes.
Misty: so take them, internalize them, use them as you as you can and you want and you should for good. But I I think we tend to almost downplay compliments and and don't teach little girls how to accept them.
Sonia: Yes, no, absolutely. And and also understand that and and that kind of touch base to what I was saying earlier, it has nothing to do with your background, your religion, your skin color, where you're from, your like it's just being your person. you know? And and I think that's also very important because you know Like you see me like this, for example, I've been wearing weaves and wigs, you know, for years on end and because I wanted to, you know. And it's very funny because even today some people who saw me before and and and now since I've gone, you know, buzzcut and they're like, ⁓ it's it's it looks great, you know, really like stay like this and ⁓ you know, you look so much better. And I know they don't mean anything bad, but I'm like it doesn't matter to me because I wasn't trying to look better or worse, you know, it was how I was feeling.
Misty: Right, exactly. How you How you wanted to see yourself in that moment.
Sonia: exactly. I know there's been a lot of narratives around, you know, Black people being ashamed of their hair and ⁓ and you know. And ⁓ and and again it's like don't put any thought in my head or in my mouth because I've never expressed that I was ashamed or annoyed or anything like that. If anything, it's always been a pleasure for me. you know, to do my own wigs to have fun, to change styles and and and basically to never lie about it as well. Because, you know, if you're curious about it, if you want to know more about that part of, you know, mm our beauty industry and and beauty tricks, be my guest. I'm happy to share. ⁓ the all the years and Even today it's interesting again to see those boxes and how people can react even to a haircut, you know.
Misty: Yeah, it is really interesting. it i even when you No matter what you do, when you change your appearance, people weigh in, generally they're saying nice things, but it really is about how you want to view yourself, how you feel, what makes you comfortable in your own skin. And it's so interesting how those compliments or or those ⁓ comments rather can almost make you less comfortable in your own skin because then you start to second guess what you were doing before.
Sonia: Yes. Yes. Ac actually that's that that's exactly it, because you were like, Mm, why didn't I look good before? I thought I did. but but thank you. Thank you for telling me. yes, no, ⁓ absolutely. And and I I think there's
Misty: Yeah.
Sonia: And that's w kind of what I like about the title of your podcast. I think as we grow up as well, as we ⁓ as we navigate life, there's so many things that you know we we learn to kind of let go of. You know? and and I think again I I wasn't ashamed or anything of my hair, for example, but I always thought I have a big forehead, you know? Don't say no, I know I do, but it's okay. It's my it's it's my brain. It takes a it takes up a lot of space.
Misty: I think it's amazing. I have the world's tiniest head, which I really am worried about what that what people think about my brain size. I have so much hair because I have the tiniest head. I have to wear like children's glasses. I have the tiniest head. So
Sonia: Yeah. But you see how we are we with ourselves and and and and just just embracing my my forehead for me was just like liberating you know.
Misty: You embrace your head 'cause I've embraced my tiny one. So I wanna talk for a minute about labels because I find this an interesting ⁓
Sonia: Yeah.
Misty: an interesting insight into how people view themselves. And Overall, we live in a world that really loves labels, but I like how you said I'm just Sonia, which by the way is an amazing thing to be. And you don't necessarily need those labels. I wonder a little bit if that is generational at all. Because as I was thinking through it when read I when I when I was reading notes ⁓ I I've kind of grown up as labels as part of my identity. Like I'm a woman, I'm a mom, I'm a wife, I am a professional, I am I'm all of these things and it's helped sort of establish my identity. But then Because I really wanted it to be my own identity and not somebody else's. Because when I think back to like my mother's generation and before that, you didn't really have your own identity. You were Mrs. whatever your husband's name was. So like I've never referred to myself as Mrs. Mark Bellis. Like I that's not even a label I can wrap my head around. Not that I don't adore my husband, but I don't even think he sees me that way. What's that?
Sonia: We don't even know who this man is. We don't even know who that man is.
Misty: who is this person? ⁓ So I wonder this is sort of the evolution of where we're ⁓ at, because ⁓ know, ⁓ ⁓ I'm with labels, but that's because I came from this generation. You're younger than I am, so you're reaching a point where you're like, I don't need all of that other stuff to to say who I am, just this is me. ⁓
Sonia: I ⁓ You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right and and ⁓ that's probably the reason why ⁓ labels annoy me because ⁓ ⁓ always feels like everything we stay we're saying today is is stemming from you know the the the battles of the previous generations. and And it's almost like, ⁓ we're going backward. You know? It's like, well, s someone like you, like you said, well, you you you have those labels, but at the same time, that was already an evolution from you know, compared to your mom. ⁓ and and and Today I'm I'm able to speak the way I speak because you know I lived all these experiences and I had the chance, at least in my environment, because we know how the world works, unfortunately. But I was lucky enough to be able to say I want to be Sonia and nothing else. And I guess that's exactly the reason why I'm like, if we fought enough and we are lucky enough, you know, in in in our, let's say, developed countries, to to be able to say that and express that, then then let's embrace it. Why would you want to go back and be like, ⁓ no, actually I'm not myself, I'm not an ⁓ ⁓ I'm part of a whole. If that's your prerogative, again, I'm I'm no one to you know, because maybe you feel comfort, maybe you you you like the community, maybe you know what I mean? I'm not judging the reason why, but I don't want that to identify me. That's my truth at least.
Misty: Yeah, no, it's it's not that it's wrong, it's right for somebody else. You know, they're not wrong if that's what they want. But we do have a choice at this point that we didn't have twenty, thirty, forty years ago. That was unheard of. So if you have that choice, then then why not just be yourself without all the labels around.
Sonia: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And I and I think that's exactly one of the points that We sometimes even tend to lose in our pursuit of of of the truth, of the the openness, of the it's It is actually the ⁓ to think the way you wanna think. You ⁓ And I think that's the biggest ⁓ ⁓ you ⁓ And I'm not talking about hate speech or anything like that, don't get me wrong. But I'm saying that we have the liberty to live the life the way we want to live it. And if we think about the women, for example, well, Some women don't want to have kids. Some women want to stay home and have a bunch of them. ⁓ some some women just want to be married, work a little bit, have fun, go on holiday, not become a boss babe and so what? Good for you, girl. You go. You see what I mean? And
Misty: Yeah. Yeah, Exactly.
Sonia: Absolutely. And that's our luxury. I would say that's really the luxury of our times. It's having the you know, the choice, you know, and we should all respect that choice.
Misty: So want to talk a little bit about your career because you have had this amazing career. and ⁓ you know, You've been in luxury travel, writing about luxury travel for for quite some time. But this is kind of a fine line because we're talking about how let's just call it what it is, DEI has sort of become again that checked box, so that you could say that there's representation, but as a luxury travel writer, are there many people who look like you? And so are we falling short there by not inviting more people in? And again, not about checking the box, but being more inviting into the industry.
Sonia: Yes. ⁓ Truth be told, no. ⁓ I don't see a lot of journalists that look like me. and I would say that even though it's diverse, ⁓ I guess the industry still works in silo. you know, Because I'm sure that if I was to go to a trade show in Africa. Maybe. And I'm saying maybe because even even then I see a lot of you know wider journalists in the different posts and and whatnot. but I don't know I don't know if it's a question of integrating. you know, ⁓ a more diverse set of journalists or or just changing the way the luxury hospitality media operates. because The reality is that there's a lot of who's who, who knows who, and and I think even if we were to try to encourage like new generations of of journalists or or just media professional like PR communication. We have to be more inclusive, you know, in the sense that not everyone has the network. Not everyone grew up in a family that's gonna be, you know, encouraging to do this or that. And I I was saying that for myself, you know, I wasn't encouraged to do TV back then. you know, My family thought I was ludicrous, ⁓ or or to be a comedian or anything like that. So So I think we we need to go back to the roots of it all, you know, and it comes from childhood. You know, Who are the people that are less likely to enter those fields? You know, and I I I when I When I think about the US, for example, you know, it seems like you're more encouraged to have like a sports ⁓ you know tuition than anything else. And it's almost like you only if you don't have money, your only option is either to be top of the class or to do sports. Maybe there could be a middle ground, you know?
Misty: So Do you think it's because y you know, the the path isn't there or it isn't obvious and there's not even awareness that this is a career you you can have. okay.
Sonia: I think I think both because it's I guess it's within the like within the path that you end up learning about your options. you know, like I think sometimes you even ask like a twenty five year old, they wouldn't even know one job exists and and and they are you know, born and raised in Paris and ⁓ you there's so many jobs in the world that you cannot know them all. ⁓ but but I definitely think that you know, luxury can can be already intimidating, you know. So at this same
Misty: I ⁓ especially if it's not a world you came from. It's not the world I came from. So it's a a world I had to learn and get used to and figure out how to navigate, without having that background.
Sonia: So add to that not knowing, then being, you know, intimidated, then potentially feeling like an imposter, then feeling that, you know, you are part of a minority because everyone is telling you, you're a woman, you need help, you're Black you need help, you're this, you need help, you know? ⁓ And and then you're like, ⁓ so if I don't have the help, potentially I won't be able to succeed? Exactly. So see, that's that's also the the quota idea that I'm I'm against because I do feel that these type of quotas and ticking the boxes, they are also the ones that instill that thought in someone's head, like, What do you mean? I'm I'm I'm part of a diversity program, you know? but but but still we should
Misty: Yeah, I can't do this on my own.
Sonia: really at the beginning have those diversity program but in a way of information, you know, awareness. Exactly. And thinking, okay, let's think about the school that might be, you know, less favored and might have less access to this kind of you know, they don't go to the theater as much, for example, you know, they've never been to the theatre as kids. They've never been to a musical, you know, they
Misty: Yeah, an awareness as opposed to a mandate.
Sonia: ⁓ just and just try to open up I think people's minds ⁓ from that letting them naturally have this will to become luxury hospitality journalist or or hairdresser. It doesn't matter. But but but just giving them, you know, ⁓ the open mindness.
Misty: Yeah, the exposure to it to even know it's an option.
Sonia: And once you have the exposure, then we can see, okay, are we being excluding people or not? You know, Because if we're not excluding people but we're opening the door to everyone, then ⁓ need for DEI because you you already have a variety of people to just embrace.
Misty: But hopefully the industry is able to create and and cultivate this next generation so that they do have exposure to it to just make it I think more just maybe more welcoming to invite more people in.
Sonia: Yeah, absolutely. I I think so. And because the industry is also very global, I imagine it could eas it could be easy to create better coalitions, you know, and and and better networks of journalists across the world. ⁓ and and and maybe having way of maybe inviting more journalists from other continents and vice versa and and really creating, you know, this is travel. after all. So i it shouldn't be that difficult to have people.
Misty: Well, yes, I mean it it's really kind of based on being open minded and learning from others and embracing the differences and and all of that. That's really sort of the beautiful thing about travel is that it opens your mind to all of these things.
Sonia: Yes, no, absol absolutely. And I always love, you know, I was recently to to a summit and I f I loved there was like Asians and e again unfortunately not many from Africa but but there were Asian Americans, Europeans and we were from different countries, different, you know, culture and ⁓ I don't I don't wanna sound like Disney, ⁓ like Disney but But it o it's always so nice. Even when, you know, you have broken English and and broken this and broken French and broken whatever, you end up understanding each other and and and spending an amazing time. So ⁓ that's really what I love about the industry. So I don't want my comment to diminish, you know, of course what this industry is bringing, but but that's the thing. We shouldn't just rest on the successes. We should, you know, strive to maybe do better.
Misty: It's a valid point. But yes, I mean I think that those of us who are in this industry fall in love with it for all of those reasons, but opening it up to more who can experience it is really what we're after, not just from a journalism standpoint, but from a service industry in general is really broadening people's ⁓ perception of what a service industry is and what hospitality means and how it can be your career path.
Sonia: Yes, I I I absolutely agree. And and I think hospitality, you know, where Whether it's in a luxury hotel or or anywhere else, it's it's about welcoming people and understanding them, ⁓ and and understanding where they come from. and you know, I I volunteer for Crisis every Christmas and and that's also something that is very interesting because that's what we do, it's hospitality, you know, over Christmas. And and and you tend to think about, ⁓ who are these people? You know, they don't have the same life as me, or at least not right now, but then you realise maybe they did. You know, you listen to the story and you're like, ⁓ my god, this person was me ten, twenty years ago, but something happened, you know? so so it's always about how you you you try to connect with other people. If you even if you don't think that from the get go there's something there, but actually there might be. You know, so let's not be afraid of that difference and and thinking ⁓ no, it's not gonna ⁓ it's not gonna mesh. Well mm it might as well mesh, you know.
Misty: Yeah, I mean in a way it it's it's sort of on us to also be mentors to find people who are either interested or just starting that path and and bring them bring them in as well. ⁓
Sonia: Absolutely.
Misty: I know we have talked about you being just Sonia as the truth that you don't say aloud, though I do think you say it aloud. ⁓ I want to talk about your permission slip for a moment, because that's the other part of the Zero Fs conversation, is to talk about what do you give yourself permission to do now? What is something that no longer serves you that you have just let go of? moved up, moved beyond.
Sonia: I guess and it's kind of relates as well to what I was saying earlier about, you know, childhood and expectations and and I think Expectations You know, because Any expectations that I don't have for myself, I'm trying to let go of. And and I'm not talking about responsibilities. I'm really talking about expectations because it's a different type of pressure. and and I'm trying to let go of that, you know, the pressure of friends, society, professional network, the parents, you name it you know, because it kinda stops you in your track, I feel. at least, you know, it stops you or it slows you down because you spend so much time thinking, well, should I do this? Because someone said I should and and then you you second guess yourself and you think what are they gonna say? What are they gonna think? And ⁓ and You know, my professional path has been all over the place. ⁓ And sometimes I look back at it, even even to come on on this podcast, I was like, ⁓ my god, I'm I'm I'm nothing compared to the other guests. you know? And And I I second guessed myself and then I was like, ⁓ whatever, you know, actually I'm just ⁓ ⁓ that's my superpower. And also I'm gonna get to have this amazing chat with Misty, and it's gonna be lovely. So yes, let's do ⁓ and
Misty: Then you were like, I'm just Sonia and that's pretty awesome.
Sonia: But yes, I think really in general I'm I'm really getting to that point and ⁓ it it's fairly recent where yeah I I don't give ⁓ an F
Misty: in your Zero Fs Era ⁓ and ⁓ is that advice others as well? Get wida get rid of the should haves in your ⁓ in your mind.
Sonia: Abs absolutely. Yes. Yes. ⁓ absolutely. Because at the end of the day, if if you're if you feel like you're disappointing yourself, it's gonna be way more impactful than disappointing anyone else. So I feel like if you're able to look at yourself in the mirror and being happy with where you're at, whatever that happiness looked like, then who is anyone else to deny you that? So that's where I'm at.
Misty: It seems like a really good place to ⁓ So ⁓ Sonia, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for the conversation. So glad I get to see my friend. Normally I'm seeing you in ⁓ someplace out in the world. It's not often that we're in the same space, ⁓ ⁓ it's been really nice to to get to see you on my screen ⁓ So
Sonia: Nice. Yeah. Same. Thank you so much for having me.
Misty: Absolutely. Well, thank you everyone for joining in our conversation today. And remember us to follow, Remember to follow us on Instagram @ zero_fs_era or you can email us at zerofsera@gmail.com. ⁓ We definitely want hear from you, would love to hear your take on this, so please do reach out. ⁓ And remember to ⁓ all out of for the things that just don't matter so that you can focus on the things that do. ⁓ Thanks everyone. Til time, ⁓ bye ⁓ I tripped over our outro, but otherwise you can fix that. Sonia, how do you feel?
Sonia: We we I feel good, except that I feel like I'm sweating like a pig but
Misty: You're you're listening, so yes.
Sonia: No, I mean how how do you feel? Like hopefully I didn't say anything too controversial or whatever.
Misty: No, I don't think so. I think there's a couple of maybe provocative statements in there, which I think there's nothing wrong with making people think. So I think being provocative in a positive way of let me think about this from a different angle is is a great thing.
Sonia: Okay, okay. Well if you think that was interesting enough and you know, hopefully I won't be the last listened to episode of all. ⁓
Misty: No, actually I'm the le the less listened to. Mine was the the lowest rated on one of them, so don't worry. ⁓ it would never be you.
Sonia: Well, because it was the intro, come on. It was probably the first episode.
Misty: Manda, what do think from your side?
Sonia: Right.
Misty: Excellent. The sound was going a little in and out on my side. Are you able to was it okay on your side?
Sonia: Okay.
