speaker-1: If you are chasing something for your happiness and security, and not only is it not providing it, but it feels like the more of it I get, the more of it I just want. Like that's what it is with money. Like the more money we we have, it's like it's not enough. And I just feel like I need more. And like possessions, you probably have more stuff today than you ever dreamt you would have 15 years ago. And yet It's not enough. You just keep chasing more and more and more of it. then the then it's never gonna it's never gonna solve your problem. I think God, on the other hand, once we find him, we find out that that he is enough and he is what my heart and soul have been searching for all along.
YALT - You Asked, Let's Talk.: Eighteen years ago, Joshua Becker spent a Saturday cleaning out his garage. He looked up and he found his five-year-old son alone on the swing set, still waiting for his dad to come and play. And that's the moment where everything changed. Today, Joshua is a New York Times bestselling author. He's the voice behind becoming minimalist. And he spent nearly two decades since figuring out what actually happens when you stop chasing more. And I want to know, you guys wanted to know, does owning less get you closer to enough? Here's my conversation. with Joshua Becker.
speaker-0: Well hey Joshua, welcome to the U Ask Let's Talk Podcast. I've been looking forward to having you here. And because you're known for minimalism, I thought this is the day I'm gonna wear a black t-shirt.
speaker-1: Well the day you wanted to match me, so well done. Well done.
speaker-0: Well, it's to have you here. I know that your work has impacted a ton of people. And the question we're really wrestling every single week, people send in questions for this podcast. And the question we're wrestling with today is what actually makes a life feel like it's enough? What actually makes a life feel like enough? And I know I've heard you talk about this moment in your garage. but before I get there, can you think back like when's the most recent time or when's the last time You had something in your mind that you thought, Man, if I just got this thing, or if I did this thing, or if I crossed this finish line, I would have enough. When was that for you? And what was the this for you? What was that finish line for you?
speaker-1: Well gosh, I would say that I struggle with this. I think maybe more than most people. I I don't I'm not in the heads of most other people, so maybe it's a it's a common struggle, but I've written about it in my books and I am a twin brother of a brother who people won't necessarily be seeing me, but I'm about six foot and pretty thin billed and my brother was six five, two forty started on the high school football team as a freshman and I played junior varsity tennis. Like we we were we were putting night and day and like he became financially successful pretty quickly in life and our parents loved us all the same, but I've I've felt like I've spent my entire life trying to measure up to my brother and So I found minimalism eighteen years ago, which I think really changed my view of physical possessions. And so wouldn't say that I struggle with, hey, if I got into that neighborhood, if I bought that car, if I was able to buy a boat. Like I've I've kind of moved past that, but I still have a lot of, you know, if I could accomplish this, if I could prove myself in this way, struggle with that a lot. But I spent ten years trying to hit the New York Times bestseller list and I hit it last February and so I felt like I crossed that finish line and I don't know if it solved my internal dilemma of needing to be noticed quite as much as I would like to, but it was a nice accomplishment that I spent a while pursuing.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Congratulations. that's that's amazing. But it doesn't sound like you you s you felt some big sense of relief on the other side of it necessarily.
speaker-1: Yeah, no, in the moment, you're like, I I did it. we made it. then then it's like, I wish I would have spent two weeks on the New York Times bestseller list, or I wish I would have been number three rather than number five. And I've spent a lot of my life knowing that I was always gonna be a little unsettled with my accomplishments, that no matter what. You do no matter what you accomplish, there's always more that you could do and that you could have accomplished. And I think that's probably a little bit about being human.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, that's that's what was going through my mind. Congratulations. You're human. And I think we all wrestle with that to some degree. I I like that idea of more. You mentioned, you know, there's more, more time on the New York Times bestseller list. I think a lot of times when people are trying to find contentment, it seems like stuff is a thing and there's no better place to remind us of stuff than in the garage. I know you've written about this and talked about this a lot, but for those that haven't heard the backstory a bit. Do you mind taking us back to the garage and what you experienced on that day?
speaker-1: Yeah. yeah, it is true that I think stuff is a big one for a lot of people and not just like having the bigger house or in the specific neighborhood or the second home. but I think it also can be like a dollar amount, like, hey, once I reach this net worth or what the other net worth might be, and so a lot of different ways to to think about it. But eighteen years ago I was living in Vermont. Me and my wife and had two kids. My son, well still do, but at the time, my son Salem was five. My daughter Alexa was two. And my life changed on a Saturday morning. We were gonna do our spring cleaning. I had this vision of my five-year-old son hanging out in the garage with his father all day long, cleaning it out and organizing everything after the long winter. He lasted about 30 seconds. my Spring project, spring cleaning project in the garage ended up lasting hours. my neighbor, who I started complaining to about how long my project had gone had taken, said to me, you know, that's why my daughter is a minimalist. She keeps telling me I don't need to own all this stuff. And I I like looked at the pile of things, dirty, dusty things I'd pulled out of my garage, spent all day cleaning. I would have said, just like most people, I'm not looking for happiness in my possessions. but there's a pile of dirty, dusty things in my driveway. And out of the corner of my eye, there's my five-year-old son alone on the swing set in the backyard where he'd been all day long just wanting his dad to come play catch with him. And I suddenly realized how all the things I owned weren't just not making me happy, but they were keeping me from the thing that did. did bring me happiness and meaning and fulfillment in life. And so that was the moment we decided that we were going to intentionally own less stuff, not owning the fewest amount of things as possible as the goal, but owning just what I needed so that we can focus more of our life on the things that actually matter.
speaker-0: That's powerful. as as you're describing that, it's a little bit honestly a little convicting to me. So my wife and I live in a little house, we don't have a garage, there's not a lot of storage, and we realized this summer we were able to meet you in person on your book tour and man, realized we've just got stuff busting at the seams and at some point we gotta do something about it. We gotta do something about it. And it seemed like that you're Your neighbor was super influen in that moment when your neighbor said that, did you realize was that aha was happening or did you think about it and implement it later?
speaker-1: Well, I certainly had no idea of what it was going to become in my life. I never I never dreamt I would be writing books about this conversation and eighteen years later repeating it. But it was not a hey, I need to think about that for a while. It was you're right. Like it was it was like a light bulb moment of I didn't know what it was gonna mean in terms of what we were gonna get rid of or How much we were gonna get rid of, but certainly in that moment I could see how yeah, I just spent all day cleaning up my garage instead of spending time with my kid. And you're right, if I didn't have this much stuff, I could have been spending time with him in the backyard instead. So I was hooked right away. And so was my wife, by the way. I that's pretty commonly asked, you know, how did your wife feel about it and how did you work the whole thing out? And she was on board, like I had spent all morning out in the garage and she had spent all morning cleaning the inside of the house. So she I think felt the weight of possessions at the same time. we certainly disagreed on how much we were going to get rid of or what we were going to get rid of, but she was in the right frame of mind to have me come in and offer this new I new approach to life.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. That's great. That's that's a gift because that doesn't always happen where there's alignment.
speaker-1: Yeah, for sure.
speaker-0: On that. Yeah. certainly part of asking when does life have enough is physical things, but oftentimes when people are writing in, they're also thinking about financially, because as we record, gasoline is through the roof and you know, just nothing is getting cheaper over time and I feel like in your story I heard you say that during the season you were making more money than you used to, but you still didn't feel any further ahead. And I think a lot of us have felt that. We've felt that exact thing. What do you think's going on with that actually when we're wrestling with we've got more, but it still doesn't feel like it.
speaker-1: Well, there's a lot going on there. But I the one of the bigger issues is that so many of us think that more money is gonna make us happier. That more money is going to make us feel secure. The numbers are something like 78% of Americans think they will be happier if they have more money. And then we work really hard and we increase our income, we increase our net worth, and we don't actually feel that much happier. We don't actually feel less stressed about money. money isn't gonna provide the security, I think. like we set this benchmark and we get there and we don't feel happier, we don't feel more secure, and we think, I just had the wrong Amount I just saw the stat just this week that we make more money than ever. We have more stuff than ever, and yet Americans are actually less happy today than in the nineteen sixties. So more money, more stuff is isn't gonna solve what our heart is searching for.
speaker-0: that's really eye opening because it sounds like you're saying it's not actually a money problem, it's more of a wanting.
speaker-1: yeah, I I think it is. We I think it's a placing our want in the wrong thing. Like wanting happiness and joy and meaning isn't a bad desire. wanting to feel security isn't a bad desire. I just think we're not gonna find it in money. and so it's about looking for those things in the wrong places.
speaker-0: there a moment for you that you became aware that stuff was costing something? Money, time, relationship, any of those sorts of things?
speaker-1: Well, I think that probably we know that. I mean, we would we would say it if we were asked, sure, there's We don't really realize how much of a not just a time waste, but how much stress and worry and mental capacity has to go towards those things. We don't realize how much of our life is focused on how can I get more and what more do I want? until until I discovered minimalism and started owning less and started realizing, wait, there is a much freer life available to us by intentionally owning less.
speaker-0: I love that you said that. I keep coming back to to that idea of can owning less mean having more? And it sounds like that's that's what you've experienced.
speaker-1: You're minimizing the money and the time that you can spend on. experiences or money and time that you could spend on relationships or money and time that you could spend on being generous with your life, giving to church or charities or whatever it might be. And so we're all like we all live finite lives with finite money and time and energy. And the more of that I spend on physical possessions, then the less I have on something different, something better, I would contend.
speaker-0: Yeah, it feels like there's a tension there, right? Between trying to live a generous life but also trying to have more stuff that it feels like it's it's impossible to do both of those at the same time.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, that whole stat, seventy-eight percent of Americans think they'll be happier if they have more money. like it is tough to live a generous life if you think your life will be better if you have more money. the average American donates just 0.9% of their income every single year. Shockingly, during the Great Depression, Americans were giving away on average three percent. of their income. we give away less of our income today than Americans living during the Great Depression. and I think there's something something wrong with that.
speaker-0: Yeah, once you start connecting those dots between they were happier back then and they were more generous back then, I I I feel like that's the correlation you're making there, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. And owned a lot less, certainly. Mm-hmm. And had every and had every reason to be as stressed about the world and the economy, probably a lot more than we did do.
speaker-0: I had a I had a great aunt that was like a second mom to my dad growing up. And she never married. She helped take care of the family. She lived through the Great Depression. She was a school teacher, never made a ton of money. But after she passed, she left a chunk to the next generation and to charities and nonprofits. And she was content her whole life. Like you never would have known she'd been saving and you never would have known that she wanted more. She was just very, very content. And so that's where my mind goes as you're describing that is for her it wasn't more. It was realizing she had enough already.
speaker-1: a lot of this only makes sense when you have faith in a God who loves you and cares for you and is involved in your life? Like how like I'm I'm stressed because I don't have enough money and so okay, Joshua, you said earlier that money isn't gonna make me happier, like money isn't gonna make me feel security. Like what what is the answer? And For me, just thinking of your great aunt, I'm sure it's the same answer for her as it is for me, which probably is the same for you. well, I I find my security, I find my contentment in knowing that there's a God who loves me and has the power to take care of me and wants what's best for me. then I can find security and I can find happiness in a place that I'm actually going to find it. And so, Just not to leave the leave the punchline, leave the solution hanging out there. it's it's difficult even I think for cr and and even for Christians, like and you and I, like there's still a lot of chasing for more and wanting more and trying to check those desires and be seeking that security and foundation in the right place. but certainly I think that lays the foundation for you and I and your great aunt as well.
speaker-0: No, I love that you went there because both and like certainly finding security, but also at the same time realizing I still have some of those struggles. And if memory serves me right, when that garage conversation happened for you, you were a pastor in that season? Is that right? And one of the questions one of my friends sent in for the podcast was basically did studying the gospels impact your decision for minimalism or did minimalism help you in your pursuit of Jesus? And I guess in some ways it's the chicken or the egg kind of question, but what direction if you had to pick one, do you feel like that that happened for you?
speaker-1: If I had to pick one, I would pick the second. I knew all of the teachings that Jesus gave about money and possessions. Life is not found in the abundance of possessions. sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you'll have treasures in heaven. He of course calls the like the fisherman. He's like, Leave everything and come follow me. Like I like I knew those teachings. But I wasn't living them out. I I don't even know if I knew what it looked like to live them out. Like they just seem like this impossible standard or or the way I like to explain it is I could see how Jesus' teachings were going to benefit the poor that were gonna be getting all of my stuff. But I didn't know how it was gonna help my life in any way. And then I was introduced to minimalism by my neighbor who wasn't a believer. And certainly all those teachings were in the back of my mind, or even more importantly, like the world view of hey, there's more to life than the world. like God's kingdom is better than the world's kingdom. And just knowing that there's more to life than money and possessions, I think probably helped. But for the most part, it was once I started owning less stuff, or as like I s like I say, once I started really trying to apply Jesus' teachings by giving away my excess possessions and realizing that I didn't need as much money as I thought and And I could give away more. Then I really started to read Jesus' teachings different. And it wasn't, hey, this is just going to benefit the poor, or this is some great test of how much you love me. but it was, hey, this is a better way to live. You don't have to waste your life taking care of a bunch of things you don't need. You can find more joy and more fulfillment by serving me and living a generous life and taking care of other people and so it it was both and but it was probably more minimalism allowed me to see Jesus' teachings through a new lens.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's super, super helpful. It sounds like really as you've embraced it, those verses have come alive in a way that maybe you hadn't seen before and felt more real. I know a lot of folks listening to the podcast that have maybe taken baby steps towards scripture. Maybe, maybe they've read it a lot, but is there any place you would point them or any encouragement as they explore the gospels and as they explore this idea in scripture? Is there any particular scripture that you would say, hey? Maybe start here.
speaker-1: Well, I can send you to a place that I like reading in the Bible that I like sending people to first. and it might be as good as any, but I I would even like take a d my advice would be come and see. Like just like just test out Jesus for a little bit. like there is a place. Jesus had a place for people who were just following him, who were just learning from him, who were just benefiting from being in his presence. Like he was healing a tons of tons of people who didn't believe in him. He was constantly teaching and talking and spending time with people who didn't believe that he was God, but they were just around because they were interested to see who he was, what he was teaching, what he could offer them. And so someone listening right now, like I would say, like you like just go go find a church, like ask the person you know. Who has a relationship with God, the the person in your sphere who's like, I know they go to church, I know they live a good life, and just just ask them, where do you go to church? Do you think I could come sometime with you? they would love to have you come with them. And you can just sit and just, this is what we talk about here. this is what they're teaching on. Is this good for me? Like, does this make sense to me? Like I I would just say find a church to go to. if that's too much and you're the type who's like, no, I just want to, I just want to read something. a lot of people will recommend reading the book of John, and that is a great place to start. John tends to be a book in the Bible, it's the fourth book in the New Testament, and it's the life of Jesus, and it's a lot of dialogue. it's a lot of like Jesus talking. Which is great if you like that. I personally like the book of Mark, which is just like two books before the book of John. but Mark is like action, is like Jesus did this, then he did that, then he did this miracle, then he was going in this direction. And so I've never been like a I love the long dialogue movies. I'm like the, hey, what happened next? What happened next? And so I tend to like the Book of Mark. And so based on your personality, if you like the if you like the long dialogue, go read John. If you're I just want the action, go to the Book of Mark.
speaker-0: Fast paced action. Absolutely. Well, this is so fascinating. What a great conversation. We came into it just asking what makes life feel like enough and a lot of the things that statistically we've been chasing money, possessions, prestige, followers, platform, honestly, just leave people feeling empty and that enough comes from somewhere else. And so any any final words you would say about that?
speaker-1: If you are chasing something for your happiness and security, and not only is it not providing it, but it feels like the more of it I get, the more of it I just want. Like that's what it is with money. Like the more money we we have, it's like it's not enough. And I just feel like I need more. And like possessions, you probably have more stuff today than you ever dreamt you would have 15 years ago. And yet It's not enough. You just keep chasing more and more and more of it. then the then it's never gonna it's never gonna solve your problem. I think God, on the other hand, once we find him, we find out that that he is enough and he is what my heart and soul have been searching for all along.
speaker-0: Hmm. That's so good. That's so good. Well, I'm so grateful to be able to sit down and have the conversation with you because I know you've written to thousands and thousands of people. What's the best way if folks want to dive more into your books, into your blog, to learn more about all the things that you're involved in, including any nonprofits, where would you send people? Or what would you want to point them to?
speaker-1: Thanks, thanks for asking. Joshua Becker dot com is if you just want writing on how to own less stuff, becoming minimalist dot com is my website. But Joshua Becker dot com is really the the home hub for all the books that I've written and the different channels that I'm involved in and the nonprofits. So that's what I'd send people. Thank you.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. Well, I love today's conversation. A lot of times when I think about minimalism, it's what's the latest hack and what are the fast ways to purge, which are super helpful tips, but I love that you've given it a lot of thought about what's going on underneath the surface of stuff. And so it's super helpful. Thanks for your generosity with time today. Thanks for helping us think this through.
speaker-1: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
YALT - You Asked, Let's Talk.: So, does more ever get you to enough? Well, Joshua's answer in the end wasn't really about stuff at all. It was actually about where we're looking for security in the first place. If there's one thing I want to sit with and I would encourage you to sit with this week, is that one line that he said. Nothing you own or earn is ever going to say that's enough. It's never going to do it. And if you've never really opened a Bible, Joshua pointed to two books of the Bible, the Gospel of Mark. If you want action or the gospel of John, if you want the long conversations with Jesus Himself, either one is a real place to start. You can find Joshua's Writing at joshuabecker.com and becoming minimalist.com. And if this conversation raised a question of your own, please send that question in. That's genuinely where these episodes come from. Just swing by clearfaith.org slash podcast. And we want to say a special thank you to our friends at Entervar City Press IVP for helping spread the word about this podcast. If this episode was encouraging to you, please consider sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and coming back for the next conversation because we can't wait to talk again soon.
YALT - You Asked, Let's Talk.: Eighteen years ago, Joshua Becker spent a Saturday cleaning out his garage. He looked up and he found his five-year-old son alone on the swing set, still waiting for his dad to come and play. And that's the moment where everything changed. Today, Joshua is a New York Times bestselling author. He's the voice behind becoming minimalist. And he spent nearly two decades since figuring out what actually happens when you stop chasing more. And I want to know, you guys wanted to know, does owning less get you closer to enough? Here's my conversation. with Joshua Becker.
speaker-0: Well hey Joshua, welcome to the U Ask Let's Talk Podcast. I've been looking forward to having you here. And because you're known for minimalism, I thought this is the day I'm gonna wear a black t-shirt.
speaker-1: Well the day you wanted to match me, so well done. Well done.
speaker-0: Well, it's to have you here. I know that your work has impacted a ton of people. And the question we're really wrestling every single week, people send in questions for this podcast. And the question we're wrestling with today is what actually makes a life feel like it's enough? What actually makes a life feel like enough? And I know I've heard you talk about this moment in your garage. but before I get there, can you think back like when's the most recent time or when's the last time You had something in your mind that you thought, Man, if I just got this thing, or if I did this thing, or if I crossed this finish line, I would have enough. When was that for you? And what was the this for you? What was that finish line for you?
speaker-1: Well gosh, I would say that I struggle with this. I think maybe more than most people. I I don't I'm not in the heads of most other people, so maybe it's a it's a common struggle, but I've written about it in my books and I am a twin brother of a brother who people won't necessarily be seeing me, but I'm about six foot and pretty thin billed and my brother was six five, two forty started on the high school football team as a freshman and I played junior varsity tennis. Like we we were we were putting night and day and like he became financially successful pretty quickly in life and our parents loved us all the same, but I've I've felt like I've spent my entire life trying to measure up to my brother and So I found minimalism eighteen years ago, which I think really changed my view of physical possessions. And so wouldn't say that I struggle with, hey, if I got into that neighborhood, if I bought that car, if I was able to buy a boat. Like I've I've kind of moved past that, but I still have a lot of, you know, if I could accomplish this, if I could prove myself in this way, struggle with that a lot. But I spent ten years trying to hit the New York Times bestseller list and I hit it last February and so I felt like I crossed that finish line and I don't know if it solved my internal dilemma of needing to be noticed quite as much as I would like to, but it was a nice accomplishment that I spent a while pursuing.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Congratulations. that's that's amazing. But it doesn't sound like you you s you felt some big sense of relief on the other side of it necessarily.
speaker-1: Yeah, no, in the moment, you're like, I I did it. we made it. then then it's like, I wish I would have spent two weeks on the New York Times bestseller list, or I wish I would have been number three rather than number five. And I've spent a lot of my life knowing that I was always gonna be a little unsettled with my accomplishments, that no matter what. You do no matter what you accomplish, there's always more that you could do and that you could have accomplished. And I think that's probably a little bit about being human.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, that's that's what was going through my mind. Congratulations. You're human. And I think we all wrestle with that to some degree. I I like that idea of more. You mentioned, you know, there's more, more time on the New York Times bestseller list. I think a lot of times when people are trying to find contentment, it seems like stuff is a thing and there's no better place to remind us of stuff than in the garage. I know you've written about this and talked about this a lot, but for those that haven't heard the backstory a bit. Do you mind taking us back to the garage and what you experienced on that day?
speaker-1: Yeah. yeah, it is true that I think stuff is a big one for a lot of people and not just like having the bigger house or in the specific neighborhood or the second home. but I think it also can be like a dollar amount, like, hey, once I reach this net worth or what the other net worth might be, and so a lot of different ways to to think about it. But eighteen years ago I was living in Vermont. Me and my wife and had two kids. My son, well still do, but at the time, my son Salem was five. My daughter Alexa was two. And my life changed on a Saturday morning. We were gonna do our spring cleaning. I had this vision of my five-year-old son hanging out in the garage with his father all day long, cleaning it out and organizing everything after the long winter. He lasted about 30 seconds. my Spring project, spring cleaning project in the garage ended up lasting hours. my neighbor, who I started complaining to about how long my project had gone had taken, said to me, you know, that's why my daughter is a minimalist. She keeps telling me I don't need to own all this stuff. And I I like looked at the pile of things, dirty, dusty things I'd pulled out of my garage, spent all day cleaning. I would have said, just like most people, I'm not looking for happiness in my possessions. but there's a pile of dirty, dusty things in my driveway. And out of the corner of my eye, there's my five-year-old son alone on the swing set in the backyard where he'd been all day long just wanting his dad to come play catch with him. And I suddenly realized how all the things I owned weren't just not making me happy, but they were keeping me from the thing that did. did bring me happiness and meaning and fulfillment in life. And so that was the moment we decided that we were going to intentionally own less stuff, not owning the fewest amount of things as possible as the goal, but owning just what I needed so that we can focus more of our life on the things that actually matter.
speaker-0: That's powerful. as as you're describing that, it's a little bit honestly a little convicting to me. So my wife and I live in a little house, we don't have a garage, there's not a lot of storage, and we realized this summer we were able to meet you in person on your book tour and man, realized we've just got stuff busting at the seams and at some point we gotta do something about it. We gotta do something about it. And it seemed like that you're Your neighbor was super influen in that moment when your neighbor said that, did you realize was that aha was happening or did you think about it and implement it later?
speaker-1: Well, I certainly had no idea of what it was going to become in my life. I never I never dreamt I would be writing books about this conversation and eighteen years later repeating it. But it was not a hey, I need to think about that for a while. It was you're right. Like it was it was like a light bulb moment of I didn't know what it was gonna mean in terms of what we were gonna get rid of or How much we were gonna get rid of, but certainly in that moment I could see how yeah, I just spent all day cleaning up my garage instead of spending time with my kid. And you're right, if I didn't have this much stuff, I could have been spending time with him in the backyard instead. So I was hooked right away. And so was my wife, by the way. I that's pretty commonly asked, you know, how did your wife feel about it and how did you work the whole thing out? And she was on board, like I had spent all morning out in the garage and she had spent all morning cleaning the inside of the house. So she I think felt the weight of possessions at the same time. we certainly disagreed on how much we were going to get rid of or what we were going to get rid of, but she was in the right frame of mind to have me come in and offer this new I new approach to life.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. That's great. That's that's a gift because that doesn't always happen where there's alignment.
speaker-1: Yeah, for sure.
speaker-0: On that. Yeah. certainly part of asking when does life have enough is physical things, but oftentimes when people are writing in, they're also thinking about financially, because as we record, gasoline is through the roof and you know, just nothing is getting cheaper over time and I feel like in your story I heard you say that during the season you were making more money than you used to, but you still didn't feel any further ahead. And I think a lot of us have felt that. We've felt that exact thing. What do you think's going on with that actually when we're wrestling with we've got more, but it still doesn't feel like it.
speaker-1: Well, there's a lot going on there. But I the one of the bigger issues is that so many of us think that more money is gonna make us happier. That more money is going to make us feel secure. The numbers are something like 78% of Americans think they will be happier if they have more money. And then we work really hard and we increase our income, we increase our net worth, and we don't actually feel that much happier. We don't actually feel less stressed about money. money isn't gonna provide the security, I think. like we set this benchmark and we get there and we don't feel happier, we don't feel more secure, and we think, I just had the wrong Amount I just saw the stat just this week that we make more money than ever. We have more stuff than ever, and yet Americans are actually less happy today than in the nineteen sixties. So more money, more stuff is isn't gonna solve what our heart is searching for.
speaker-0: that's really eye opening because it sounds like you're saying it's not actually a money problem, it's more of a wanting.
speaker-1: yeah, I I think it is. We I think it's a placing our want in the wrong thing. Like wanting happiness and joy and meaning isn't a bad desire. wanting to feel security isn't a bad desire. I just think we're not gonna find it in money. and so it's about looking for those things in the wrong places.
speaker-0: there a moment for you that you became aware that stuff was costing something? Money, time, relationship, any of those sorts of things?
speaker-1: Well, I think that probably we know that. I mean, we would we would say it if we were asked, sure, there's We don't really realize how much of a not just a time waste, but how much stress and worry and mental capacity has to go towards those things. We don't realize how much of our life is focused on how can I get more and what more do I want? until until I discovered minimalism and started owning less and started realizing, wait, there is a much freer life available to us by intentionally owning less.
speaker-0: I love that you said that. I keep coming back to to that idea of can owning less mean having more? And it sounds like that's that's what you've experienced.
speaker-1: You're minimizing the money and the time that you can spend on. experiences or money and time that you could spend on relationships or money and time that you could spend on being generous with your life, giving to church or charities or whatever it might be. And so we're all like we all live finite lives with finite money and time and energy. And the more of that I spend on physical possessions, then the less I have on something different, something better, I would contend.
speaker-0: Yeah, it feels like there's a tension there, right? Between trying to live a generous life but also trying to have more stuff that it feels like it's it's impossible to do both of those at the same time.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, that whole stat, seventy-eight percent of Americans think they'll be happier if they have more money. like it is tough to live a generous life if you think your life will be better if you have more money. the average American donates just 0.9% of their income every single year. Shockingly, during the Great Depression, Americans were giving away on average three percent. of their income. we give away less of our income today than Americans living during the Great Depression. and I think there's something something wrong with that.
speaker-0: Yeah, once you start connecting those dots between they were happier back then and they were more generous back then, I I I feel like that's the correlation you're making there, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. And owned a lot less, certainly. Mm-hmm. And had every and had every reason to be as stressed about the world and the economy, probably a lot more than we did do.
speaker-0: I had a I had a great aunt that was like a second mom to my dad growing up. And she never married. She helped take care of the family. She lived through the Great Depression. She was a school teacher, never made a ton of money. But after she passed, she left a chunk to the next generation and to charities and nonprofits. And she was content her whole life. Like you never would have known she'd been saving and you never would have known that she wanted more. She was just very, very content. And so that's where my mind goes as you're describing that is for her it wasn't more. It was realizing she had enough already.
speaker-1: a lot of this only makes sense when you have faith in a God who loves you and cares for you and is involved in your life? Like how like I'm I'm stressed because I don't have enough money and so okay, Joshua, you said earlier that money isn't gonna make me happier, like money isn't gonna make me feel security. Like what what is the answer? And For me, just thinking of your great aunt, I'm sure it's the same answer for her as it is for me, which probably is the same for you. well, I I find my security, I find my contentment in knowing that there's a God who loves me and has the power to take care of me and wants what's best for me. then I can find security and I can find happiness in a place that I'm actually going to find it. And so, Just not to leave the leave the punchline, leave the solution hanging out there. it's it's difficult even I think for cr and and even for Christians, like and you and I, like there's still a lot of chasing for more and wanting more and trying to check those desires and be seeking that security and foundation in the right place. but certainly I think that lays the foundation for you and I and your great aunt as well.
speaker-0: No, I love that you went there because both and like certainly finding security, but also at the same time realizing I still have some of those struggles. And if memory serves me right, when that garage conversation happened for you, you were a pastor in that season? Is that right? And one of the questions one of my friends sent in for the podcast was basically did studying the gospels impact your decision for minimalism or did minimalism help you in your pursuit of Jesus? And I guess in some ways it's the chicken or the egg kind of question, but what direction if you had to pick one, do you feel like that that happened for you?
speaker-1: If I had to pick one, I would pick the second. I knew all of the teachings that Jesus gave about money and possessions. Life is not found in the abundance of possessions. sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you'll have treasures in heaven. He of course calls the like the fisherman. He's like, Leave everything and come follow me. Like I like I knew those teachings. But I wasn't living them out. I I don't even know if I knew what it looked like to live them out. Like they just seem like this impossible standard or or the way I like to explain it is I could see how Jesus' teachings were going to benefit the poor that were gonna be getting all of my stuff. But I didn't know how it was gonna help my life in any way. And then I was introduced to minimalism by my neighbor who wasn't a believer. And certainly all those teachings were in the back of my mind, or even more importantly, like the world view of hey, there's more to life than the world. like God's kingdom is better than the world's kingdom. And just knowing that there's more to life than money and possessions, I think probably helped. But for the most part, it was once I started owning less stuff, or as like I s like I say, once I started really trying to apply Jesus' teachings by giving away my excess possessions and realizing that I didn't need as much money as I thought and And I could give away more. Then I really started to read Jesus' teachings different. And it wasn't, hey, this is just going to benefit the poor, or this is some great test of how much you love me. but it was, hey, this is a better way to live. You don't have to waste your life taking care of a bunch of things you don't need. You can find more joy and more fulfillment by serving me and living a generous life and taking care of other people and so it it was both and but it was probably more minimalism allowed me to see Jesus' teachings through a new lens.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's super, super helpful. It sounds like really as you've embraced it, those verses have come alive in a way that maybe you hadn't seen before and felt more real. I know a lot of folks listening to the podcast that have maybe taken baby steps towards scripture. Maybe, maybe they've read it a lot, but is there any place you would point them or any encouragement as they explore the gospels and as they explore this idea in scripture? Is there any particular scripture that you would say, hey? Maybe start here.
speaker-1: Well, I can send you to a place that I like reading in the Bible that I like sending people to first. and it might be as good as any, but I I would even like take a d my advice would be come and see. Like just like just test out Jesus for a little bit. like there is a place. Jesus had a place for people who were just following him, who were just learning from him, who were just benefiting from being in his presence. Like he was healing a tons of tons of people who didn't believe in him. He was constantly teaching and talking and spending time with people who didn't believe that he was God, but they were just around because they were interested to see who he was, what he was teaching, what he could offer them. And so someone listening right now, like I would say, like you like just go go find a church, like ask the person you know. Who has a relationship with God, the the person in your sphere who's like, I know they go to church, I know they live a good life, and just just ask them, where do you go to church? Do you think I could come sometime with you? they would love to have you come with them. And you can just sit and just, this is what we talk about here. this is what they're teaching on. Is this good for me? Like, does this make sense to me? Like I I would just say find a church to go to. if that's too much and you're the type who's like, no, I just want to, I just want to read something. a lot of people will recommend reading the book of John, and that is a great place to start. John tends to be a book in the Bible, it's the fourth book in the New Testament, and it's the life of Jesus, and it's a lot of dialogue. it's a lot of like Jesus talking. Which is great if you like that. I personally like the book of Mark, which is just like two books before the book of John. but Mark is like action, is like Jesus did this, then he did that, then he did this miracle, then he was going in this direction. And so I've never been like a I love the long dialogue movies. I'm like the, hey, what happened next? What happened next? And so I tend to like the Book of Mark. And so based on your personality, if you like the if you like the long dialogue, go read John. If you're I just want the action, go to the Book of Mark.
speaker-0: Fast paced action. Absolutely. Well, this is so fascinating. What a great conversation. We came into it just asking what makes life feel like enough and a lot of the things that statistically we've been chasing money, possessions, prestige, followers, platform, honestly, just leave people feeling empty and that enough comes from somewhere else. And so any any final words you would say about that?
speaker-1: If you are chasing something for your happiness and security, and not only is it not providing it, but it feels like the more of it I get, the more of it I just want. Like that's what it is with money. Like the more money we we have, it's like it's not enough. And I just feel like I need more. And like possessions, you probably have more stuff today than you ever dreamt you would have 15 years ago. And yet It's not enough. You just keep chasing more and more and more of it. then the then it's never gonna it's never gonna solve your problem. I think God, on the other hand, once we find him, we find out that that he is enough and he is what my heart and soul have been searching for all along.
speaker-0: Hmm. That's so good. That's so good. Well, I'm so grateful to be able to sit down and have the conversation with you because I know you've written to thousands and thousands of people. What's the best way if folks want to dive more into your books, into your blog, to learn more about all the things that you're involved in, including any nonprofits, where would you send people? Or what would you want to point them to?
speaker-1: Thanks, thanks for asking. Joshua Becker dot com is if you just want writing on how to own less stuff, becoming minimalist dot com is my website. But Joshua Becker dot com is really the the home hub for all the books that I've written and the different channels that I'm involved in and the nonprofits. So that's what I'd send people. Thank you.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's great. Well, I love today's conversation. A lot of times when I think about minimalism, it's what's the latest hack and what are the fast ways to purge, which are super helpful tips, but I love that you've given it a lot of thought about what's going on underneath the surface of stuff. And so it's super helpful. Thanks for your generosity with time today. Thanks for helping us think this through.
speaker-1: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
YALT - You Asked, Let's Talk.: So, does more ever get you to enough? Well, Joshua's answer in the end wasn't really about stuff at all. It was actually about where we're looking for security in the first place. If there's one thing I want to sit with and I would encourage you to sit with this week, is that one line that he said. Nothing you own or earn is ever going to say that's enough. It's never going to do it. And if you've never really opened a Bible, Joshua pointed to two books of the Bible, the Gospel of Mark. If you want action or the gospel of John, if you want the long conversations with Jesus Himself, either one is a real place to start. You can find Joshua's Writing at joshuabecker.com and becoming minimalist.com. And if this conversation raised a question of your own, please send that question in. That's genuinely where these episodes come from. Just swing by clearfaith.org slash podcast. And we want to say a special thank you to our friends at Entervar City Press IVP for helping spread the word about this podcast. If this episode was encouraging to you, please consider sharing it with a friend, subscribing, and coming back for the next conversation because we can't wait to talk again soon.
