WEBVTT
00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:03.279
This is the one I was telling you about.
00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:04.400
It is the best.
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:08.000
Literally obsessed.
00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:12.640
I think their biggest telling everybody about this.
00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:14.720
Definitely is my favorite.
00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:17.760
Girl.
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:21.199
10 out of 10 would recommend.
00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:27.600
If you have ever worked in a restaurant, you know that pre-shift huddle.
00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:33.200
We're all standing around the pass or leaning on the bar before doors open and we're folding the last of our napkins.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:39.119
And the manager comes out with a clipboard and says, Okay, team, the special tonight is Mahi Mahi.
00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:43.119
And I chose Mahi Mahi very specifically if you're a bistro hutty fan on YouTube.
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:45.200
Let me know before it gets 86.
00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.719
And once this is announced, then comes the number.
00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:49.920
This is the goal.
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.640
And it is a number that represents the number of plates that we need to move.
00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:56.880
Maybe the kitchen overordered inventory.
00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:59.840
Maybe it's got a shorter shelf life than something else in it.
00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:03.439
Or maybe somebody upstairs has a margin target that they are trying to hit.
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:11.439
But whatever the reason, this fish now has a quota, and you, as the server, does too.
00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:13.680
Welcome to Would Recommend.
00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:18.719
I'm Nikki McKnight, a customer experience and operations strategist and founder of the Ops Shop.
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:26.400
And this is the show about the businesses that customers can't stop talking about and what they actually did to earn it.
00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:35.040
Today is a Nikki Talks episode, and it comes out of a panel that I was on last week, hosted by Kristen Vanderhoek.
00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:49.760
And it was the Brand Commons back to school, back to sales panel, where I was joined by some copywriters, some ad strategists, other people in sales to talk about how do we do sales in a human-centered way?
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:54.000
And I used this Mahi-Mahi story as a bit of an example for what we're about to get into.
00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:55.760
And I thought, you know what?
00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:59.359
I think, I think this could be an episode on my show.
00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:05.599
Because the fish and the wine and this restaurant metaphor are really just standing in for something bigger.
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:11.439
And the statement is where does customer experience actually start?
00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.639
So let's go back to my restaurant mahi-mahi story.
00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:19.360
The doors of the restaurant are now open, and every single table we are telling them about the mahi-mahi.
00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.560
The couple that's in on their anniversary, you want mahi mahi.
00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:27.840
The guy who walked in already saying the word ribeye with frites, they get the mahi-mahi.
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:34.719
The family with two kids who are definitely wanting to eat chicken fingers, no matter what you say, they get the mahi-mahi because you have a number.
00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:37.599
And the night is only so long.
00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:52.159
And that's the moment that I want to talk about today because there's this beat, maybe two seconds long, where the guest stops and says and thinks to themselves, Wait, did I want fish and Chardonnay?
00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:56.400
I came in here tonight thinking cab and a steak, but why am I ordering the fish?
00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:03.439
Now, perhaps they've changed their mind, but I think it's more indicative of how we combine experience and sales.
00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:06.879
Most of us are going to draw the line at sale.
00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.639
On one side of the line, there's marketing and sales, the getting the yes part.
00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:15.199
And as we've talked about in previous episodes of the show, this is that would buy moment.
00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:18.400
And on the other side of that line, there's customer experience, right?
00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:21.520
Which starts the second the credit card goes through or the contract gets signed.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:30.319
But I want to spend today making the case that this line does not exist, that your sales conversation is actually one of the most human moments in your entire business.
00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:37.840
And how you treat people in it is gonna, it's gonna dictate a lot more than whether they just buy.
00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:43.759
So let's let's talk about some ways that we can approach that table, if I'm gonna keep going with this metaphor.
00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:51.280
There's difference between selling as convincing and selling as helping.
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:58.639
Selling as convincing assumes that the buyer, the customer, the guest, whoever's on the other side of this conversation is an obstacle.
00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:03.039
There is an obstacle between you and the yes, and it is your job to get over it.
00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:10.719
And once you see the customer as an obstacle, every move you make becomes a tactic for getting over it.
00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:17.040
Overcome the objection, handle the resistance, create the urgency, get the yes before the doubt catches up with them and they have that wait.
00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:18.639
Did I want Mahi Mahi?
00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:25.920
If you've ever been on a sales call where you could feel someone's like turning the page of a script, you know what this feels like.
00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:29.040
You say, I need to think about it, and they've got a line for that.
00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:32.319
You say it's not in the budget right now, and they have a line for that too.
00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:36.319
It's like playing a video game against like an NPC, a non-playable character.
00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:41.279
And they only have four lines of dialogue, and no matter what you say, you're going to get one of the four.
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:45.600
So selling as convincing is not about a customer experience.
00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:50.560
It's about hitting a target, and it's about getting the yes, regardless of who that other human is.
00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:57.279
The second way to look at this, and this is what we talked a lot about during this panel, is selling as helping.
00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:02.399
And selling as helping is going to assume something completely different about the person in front of you.
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:04.720
They're not an obstacle anymore.
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:08.560
You're assuming and you're seeing them as standing at a fork in the road.
00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:16.319
They're in a moment where they might be trying to figure out where to go or what to do or which to choose, and they might not totally be sure yet.
00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:23.600
And it's your job to help them see the different paths that are open to them so that they can make a choice.
00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:35.519
When a customer is standing at a fork or a crossroads, instead of they are an obstacle between you and the yes, every move you make is going to get built around a different set of questions.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.879
Selling as helping is thinking, what do they think right now?
00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:39.920
What do they actually need?
00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:40.959
What are they unsure of?
00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:42.160
What are they afraid of?
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:49.600
And then once you understand all of that, it becomes what's the right answer or what's the right path for this person?
00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.399
Because here's where convincing is going to fall apart.
00:05:54.639 --> 00:06:10.319
Convincing assumes that my opinion, based on whatever assumption or perception I formed about you, my guest, my client, my customer, in the first 90 seconds of meeting you, or in an application you filled out, or in a comment in my DMs, that I know the correct path for you.
00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:12.800
And the truth of it is, I've got no freaking idea.
00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.120
I have no idea what's what's the correct path for you.
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:16.720
I don't know what you had for lunch.
00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:18.959
I don't know that your partner is allergic to shellfish.
00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:22.240
I don't know that you think fish is the most disgusting thing on earth.
00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:29.199
I don't know that this is the same restaurant you came to the night you got engaged and you've been thinking about steak for weeks now.
00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.079
The server who helps is going to find out all of that information.
00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:37.839
The server who is there to convince never asks.
00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:52.720
And this is why I think this is the part that makes sales a customer experience piece and not just a transaction that you have to get through in order to reach the experience.
00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:55.680
So on the panel, I dropped another metaphor.
00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:57.839
I know, I like my metaphors, I like my stories.
00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:59.360
Customers as hikers.
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:03.199
I can draw and I can map out the most beautiful trail map in the world.
00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:08.319
It's color-coded, it's got lamb, it's laminated, it's blown up on these billboards and signs out there.
00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.560
There's little icons for waterfalls and pathways, and here are the washrooms.
00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:18.560
But the second a hiker sees a cool tree off to the left, that is where they're going.
00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.199
Customers are people, and people wander.
00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:29.040
They show up with context that you didn't plan for, moods you didn't plan for, and history that you have no idea about.
00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:35.439
Selling as convincing is trying to drag that hiker back onto the trail.
00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:39.519
Selling as helping says, Oh, you're gonna go look at a cool tree.
00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:40.240
That's awesome.
00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:42.480
Tell me what you like about that cool tree.
00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.519
Because that's gonna tell me something about where you actually want to end up.
00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:53.759
And I think this is why sales conversation matters so much more to client experience than we give it credit for, right?
00:07:54.000 --> 00:08:09.040
In my work and in a future episode, we're gonna be talking about moments that matter or key moments, and moments that matter are these times, these situations in a customer experience that carries both the highest risk and the highest reward.
00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:14.319
A sales conversation is one of the biggest ones that you've got, right?
00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:19.279
It is the first time someone decides to trust you with their money.
00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:26.240
And if you do this for a living, like a lot of you listening do, it's also the first time they decide to trust you with their problem.
00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:36.960
I want to drop a stat at you that we talked a little bit about in my round table episode last week on customer experience with Katrina and Erica.
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:44.799
And you according to you guys, 52% of customers will leave a brand after just two bad experiences.
00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:45.679
Two.
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:49.440
Two bad experiences and they are gone.
00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.720
And you know what this equates to in sales dollars?
00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:58.000
$1.6 trillion is lost annually by US-based companies.
00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.840
This is according to Accenture, to companies switching brands after bad experiences.
00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:07.360
52% of customers, you you do something they don't like twice and they are gone.
00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:10.639
Sales is one of those moments.
00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:19.120
Sales is a part of the experience because a sales conversation is a promise.
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:24.399
Every single thing you say while you're selling is a commitment about what the experience is going to feel like.
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:34.159
If I tell you the Mahi Mahi, if it's not 86 yet, is going to be the best thing you eat this month, I have just made a promise that the kitchen now has to keep.
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:49.519
If you tell a client on a discovery call that working with you is going to feel supportive and collaborative and easy, you've made a promise to them that you're onboarding, your delivery, your inbox, and all your team, they're gonna have to keep that promise too.
00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:58.159
And this is why I think it is so important that sales and delivery are all working from the same standard.
00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.879
In the would recommend standard, I call this promise, right?
00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.159
It's the non-negotiables of how you show up in every interaction.
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:10.320
The sales conversation is where that promise gets made out loud for the first time.
00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:23.759
So if your sales process runs on one set of values and your delivery runs on another, your customer is going to feel that gap even if they cannot name it, right?
00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:26.480
Then the Mahi-Mahi quota is a good example of that gap.
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:30.399
The restaurant probably says somewhere on its website that it cares about its guests having a wonderful night.
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:36.480
And then the thing that actually drives the pre-shift huddles and maybe direction that management is giving is a fish count.
00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.440
Two different standards running the same building.
00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:46.720
So, what does selling as helping, selling as a part of a standard with your customer experience actually look like?
00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:50.320
It looks like asking before telling.
00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:53.360
Maybe what are you in the mood for tonight?
00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:55.279
Maybe are we celebrating anything?
00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:57.039
Maybe have you been here before?
00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:00.639
This needs to be about the guest and not the fish.
00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:04.960
It also looks like listening for the thing underneath the thing.
00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:14.240
If someone says to me when I'm at a winery they don't like a certain style of wine, I get a clue about their palate instead of, oh, this is now an objection.
00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:16.080
I need to change their mind.
00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:23.039
In the standard, this is all about what I call person, which is knowing your customer beyond the demographics.
00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:29.039
It's understanding how they think, how they feel, it's how they make decisions, and then serving them on those terms.
00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:35.919
A server who's helping is paying attention and doing voice of customer research in real time.
00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:37.440
They just don't call it that.
00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.840
And this is where I think the platinum rule comes into things, right?
00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.799
And it's definitely has to be present in your sales process.
00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:49.519
The golden rule is treat others as you would like to be treated.
00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:50.480
Cool.
00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:51.600
But no, no, no, no.
00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:57.519
When we're talking about experience, we want the platinum rule, which is treat others as they want to be treated.
00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:02.799
And never is that so present as in the sales conversation.
00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:13.120
And in the panel, Kristen said something that I really loved, which was when you see a customer at a fork in the road, it takes the pressure off having to get a yes.
00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:17.200
Because sometimes the honest answer is actually, that's the I'm not the right fit.
00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:23.519
Let me point you in the direction instead, which is a perfectly acceptable outcome of a sales conversation.
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:29.279
Jen Posick, who was also on the panel, told a story that really shows why this matters.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:31.600
So earlier this year, she had a sales conversation about a program.
00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:33.200
It just wasn't the right fit for her.
00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:36.559
And instead of pushing it, the person selling it agreed with her.
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:37.679
They said, You're right.
00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:39.200
It's probably not the best time.
00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:42.000
And months later, when the timing was right, she came back and joined.
00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:45.519
Now she's joining with her full energy and she's excited about it.
00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:51.679
Christina Bartold, who was on the show uh with high vibe women, they own a marketing agency called the Social Snippet.
00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:55.279
And Christina's gonna be the first person to say to potential clients, you know what?
00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:57.440
You don't need to be focusing on this right now.
00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:00.320
This is not where you should be spending your money.
00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:04.879
Serving as helping, not serving as convincing.
00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:11.200
So let's talk about what this does to your business.
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.000
Because at the end of the day, I'm an operations girly.
00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:27.759
If your sales depend on your charisma and your ability to push past resistance and to you see the customer as obstacle, then your sales process can only happen when you're in the room.
00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.279
You can't write charisma into a process or Riz.
00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:32.799
Kids still saying Riz.
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:39.440
You can't hand your personal magnetism to the next person you hire and say, here, this is how we do it.
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:45.759
Everything is gonna, in that scenario, everything routes back to your decisions, your tastes, your standards, and your way of reading people.
00:13:46.000 --> 00:14:04.080
There are so many founder-led businesses that hit a ceiling because they might look like the best closer on the team and that they're good at sales calls, but the moment you take a vacation or hire a salesperson or step back so you can actually run the company, things fall apart, right?
00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:08.320
On the other hand, selling as helping is teachable.
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:17.600
When you can understand what someone needs, what they're unsure of, what they're afraid of, and that can be written down, trained, and handed to someone else, the questions live in the process.
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:21.120
The standard can live in a document, and your whole team works from it.
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:31.759
And that's how you build a business that is going to grow, that is going to scale, it's going to thrive without you in the room because you're not the only one who knows how to have the conversation anymore.
00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:38.399
The last reason that this matters, and for a show called Would Recommend, it's the big one.
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.759
People who get convinced got a yes out of a moment.
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:48.240
But people who get helped walk away with a story.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:58.399
They tell their friends how they were guided, how they felt looked after, how they never felt like somebody was trying to push Mahi-Mahi on them when they really wanted the steak frites that night.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.919
So think about last time you recommended a restaurant to someone.
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:10.799
I would, I would bet real imaginary money, that the reason you remember it is likely because of how your server handled it.
00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:18.399
Maybe they read the table, they steered you towards something great, maybe they talked you out of something and said, actually, no, that that might not be something for you.
00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:20.480
Maybe that spicy margarita is way too spicy.
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:21.200
You don't like spicy.
00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:22.639
Try this instead.
00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:25.679
Because that's what turns a sales conversation into a referral.
00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:30.720
So in the would recommend standard, the progression goes from the market saying it would buy, right?
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:34.000
This is the first thing we do with promise, path, and person.
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:37.679
Check out the last uh episode two weeks ago if you want to dive deep into this.
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:39.440
But it's it's getting that yes.
00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:41.120
It's getting that I'd buy it.
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:46.000
But what we're really trying to get to is to a customer saying I'd return.
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:52.080
Convincing gets you a sale, and maybe the first one, maybe the only one, if you're good.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.200
Helping is what gets you the sale.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:16:01.200
It gets them to come back, and it gets them saying your name in rooms that you're not in.
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:06.960
So if you want to do something with this episode today, here's what I'd suggest: go collect some sales experiences.
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.360
This is one of the takeaways I offered at the end of the panel.
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.480
I've always considered myself a collector of experiences.
00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:21.200
And one of the most useful things you can do as a business owner is go through other people's sales processes as a customer.
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:28.080
Call a business, see what they tell you over the phone, book a consult, pay attention to a server at a dinner you go to this weekend.
00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:35.840
And every time something feels off, or every time you feel so completely looked after, figure out why.
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:37.360
How did that person treat you?
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:38.080
What did they say?
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:39.279
How did you feel?
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.080
And once you've done this, go back and look at your own sales process.
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:47.039
Pull up the last few conversations you had, or the last couple of DMs, or your sales page.
00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:53.440
Where are you leading with the thing you need to move instead of the thing they came in for?
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:58.080
Where are you handling a concern that you could have been curious about instead?
00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.080
Where is your mahi-mahi?
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:06.720
Because the sale is often the first moment that matters in customer experience.
00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:16.160
And it is where people are going to decide whether you are a business that listens or you are a business that sees them as a transaction.
00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.680
That is it for today's episode of Would Recommend.
00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:25.200
If this one landed for you, I would love for you to share this with a friend send to a business bestie who needs to hear it.
00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:27.759
That is how the show grows, one recommendation at a time.
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:31.519
I would also love it if you would rate, review, and subscribe on your podcast for writer of choice.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:32.720
Leave a comment on Spotify.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:34.160
Genuinely, I love getting them.
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:43.440
And if you are listening to this episode and thinking about your own sales process and wondering where this elusive mahi-mahi is hiding, that's exactly the kind of thing we dig into in a spark session.
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:48.319
It's a 90 minute strategy session, just you and me looking at how your sales and your delivery line up.
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.559
And if they're telling two different stories, you can find that at the link in the show notes.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:53.920
I'm Nikki McKnight.
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:01.039
This is Would Recommend, and I'm gonna see you next week with more on how to help your business become the one that people can't stop talking about.
00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:03.279
This is the one I was telling you about.
00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:04.400
It is the best.
00:00:06.799 --> 00:00:08.000
Literally obsessed.
00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:12.640
I think their biggest telling everybody about this.
00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:14.720
Definitely is my favorite.
00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:17.760
Girl.
00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:21.199
10 out of 10 would recommend.
00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:27.600
If you have ever worked in a restaurant, you know that pre-shift huddle.
00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:33.200
We're all standing around the pass or leaning on the bar before doors open and we're folding the last of our napkins.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:39.119
And the manager comes out with a clipboard and says, Okay, team, the special tonight is Mahi Mahi.
00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:43.119
And I chose Mahi Mahi very specifically if you're a bistro hutty fan on YouTube.
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:45.200
Let me know before it gets 86.
00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.719
And once this is announced, then comes the number.
00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:49.920
This is the goal.
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:54.640
And it is a number that represents the number of plates that we need to move.
00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:56.880
Maybe the kitchen overordered inventory.
00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:59.840
Maybe it's got a shorter shelf life than something else in it.
00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:03.439
Or maybe somebody upstairs has a margin target that they are trying to hit.
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:11.439
But whatever the reason, this fish now has a quota, and you, as the server, does too.
00:01:12.319 --> 00:01:13.680
Welcome to Would Recommend.
00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:18.719
I'm Nikki McKnight, a customer experience and operations strategist and founder of the Ops Shop.
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:26.400
And this is the show about the businesses that customers can't stop talking about and what they actually did to earn it.
00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:35.040
Today is a Nikki Talks episode, and it comes out of a panel that I was on last week, hosted by Kristen Vanderhoek.
00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:49.760
And it was the Brand Commons back to school, back to sales panel, where I was joined by some copywriters, some ad strategists, other people in sales to talk about how do we do sales in a human-centered way?
00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:54.000
And I used this Mahi-Mahi story as a bit of an example for what we're about to get into.
00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:55.760
And I thought, you know what?
00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:59.359
I think, I think this could be an episode on my show.
00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:05.599
Because the fish and the wine and this restaurant metaphor are really just standing in for something bigger.
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:11.439
And the statement is where does customer experience actually start?
00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:14.639
So let's go back to my restaurant mahi-mahi story.
00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:19.360
The doors of the restaurant are now open, and every single table we are telling them about the mahi-mahi.
00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.560
The couple that's in on their anniversary, you want mahi mahi.
00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:27.840
The guy who walked in already saying the word ribeye with frites, they get the mahi-mahi.
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:34.719
The family with two kids who are definitely wanting to eat chicken fingers, no matter what you say, they get the mahi-mahi because you have a number.
00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:37.599
And the night is only so long.
00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:52.159
And that's the moment that I want to talk about today because there's this beat, maybe two seconds long, where the guest stops and says and thinks to themselves, Wait, did I want fish and Chardonnay?
00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:56.400
I came in here tonight thinking cab and a steak, but why am I ordering the fish?
00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:03.439
Now, perhaps they've changed their mind, but I think it's more indicative of how we combine experience and sales.
00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:06.879
Most of us are going to draw the line at sale.
00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.639
On one side of the line, there's marketing and sales, the getting the yes part.
00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:15.199
And as we've talked about in previous episodes of the show, this is that would buy moment.
00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:18.400
And on the other side of that line, there's customer experience, right?
00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:21.520
Which starts the second the credit card goes through or the contract gets signed.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:30.319
But I want to spend today making the case that this line does not exist, that your sales conversation is actually one of the most human moments in your entire business.
00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:37.840
And how you treat people in it is gonna, it's gonna dictate a lot more than whether they just buy.
00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:43.759
So let's let's talk about some ways that we can approach that table, if I'm gonna keep going with this metaphor.
00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:51.280
There's difference between selling as convincing and selling as helping.
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:58.639
Selling as convincing assumes that the buyer, the customer, the guest, whoever's on the other side of this conversation is an obstacle.
00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:03.039
There is an obstacle between you and the yes, and it is your job to get over it.
00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:10.719
And once you see the customer as an obstacle, every move you make becomes a tactic for getting over it.
00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:17.040
Overcome the objection, handle the resistance, create the urgency, get the yes before the doubt catches up with them and they have that wait.
00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:18.639
Did I want Mahi Mahi?
00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:25.920
If you've ever been on a sales call where you could feel someone's like turning the page of a script, you know what this feels like.
00:04:26.079 --> 00:04:29.040
You say, I need to think about it, and they've got a line for that.
00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:32.319
You say it's not in the budget right now, and they have a line for that too.
00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:36.319
It's like playing a video game against like an NPC, a non-playable character.
00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:41.279
And they only have four lines of dialogue, and no matter what you say, you're going to get one of the four.
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:45.600
So selling as convincing is not about a customer experience.
00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:50.560
It's about hitting a target, and it's about getting the yes, regardless of who that other human is.
00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:57.279
The second way to look at this, and this is what we talked a lot about during this panel, is selling as helping.
00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:02.399
And selling as helping is going to assume something completely different about the person in front of you.
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:04.720
They're not an obstacle anymore.
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:08.560
You're assuming and you're seeing them as standing at a fork in the road.
00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:16.319
They're in a moment where they might be trying to figure out where to go or what to do or which to choose, and they might not totally be sure yet.
00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:23.600
And it's your job to help them see the different paths that are open to them so that they can make a choice.
00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:35.519
When a customer is standing at a fork or a crossroads, instead of they are an obstacle between you and the yes, every move you make is going to get built around a different set of questions.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.879
Selling as helping is thinking, what do they think right now?
00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:39.920
What do they actually need?
00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:40.959
What are they unsure of?
00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:42.160
What are they afraid of?
00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:49.600
And then once you understand all of that, it becomes what's the right answer or what's the right path for this person?
00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.399
Because here's where convincing is going to fall apart.
00:05:54.639 --> 00:06:10.319
Convincing assumes that my opinion, based on whatever assumption or perception I formed about you, my guest, my client, my customer, in the first 90 seconds of meeting you, or in an application you filled out, or in a comment in my DMs, that I know the correct path for you.
00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:12.800
And the truth of it is, I've got no freaking idea.
00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.120
I have no idea what's what's the correct path for you.
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:16.720
I don't know what you had for lunch.
00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:18.959
I don't know that your partner is allergic to shellfish.
00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:22.240
I don't know that you think fish is the most disgusting thing on earth.
00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:29.199
I don't know that this is the same restaurant you came to the night you got engaged and you've been thinking about steak for weeks now.
00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:34.079
The server who helps is going to find out all of that information.
00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:37.839
The server who is there to convince never asks.
00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:52.720
And this is why I think this is the part that makes sales a customer experience piece and not just a transaction that you have to get through in order to reach the experience.
00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:55.680
So on the panel, I dropped another metaphor.
00:06:55.839 --> 00:06:57.839
I know, I like my metaphors, I like my stories.
00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:59.360
Customers as hikers.
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:03.199
I can draw and I can map out the most beautiful trail map in the world.
00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:08.319
It's color-coded, it's got lamb, it's laminated, it's blown up on these billboards and signs out there.
00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.560
There's little icons for waterfalls and pathways, and here are the washrooms.
00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:18.560
But the second a hiker sees a cool tree off to the left, that is where they're going.
00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.199
Customers are people, and people wander.
00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:29.040
They show up with context that you didn't plan for, moods you didn't plan for, and history that you have no idea about.
00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:35.439
Selling as convincing is trying to drag that hiker back onto the trail.
00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:39.519
Selling as helping says, Oh, you're gonna go look at a cool tree.
00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:40.240
That's awesome.
00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:42.480
Tell me what you like about that cool tree.
00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.519
Because that's gonna tell me something about where you actually want to end up.
00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:53.759
And I think this is why sales conversation matters so much more to client experience than we give it credit for, right?
00:07:54.000 --> 00:08:09.040
In my work and in a future episode, we're gonna be talking about moments that matter or key moments, and moments that matter are these times, these situations in a customer experience that carries both the highest risk and the highest reward.
00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:14.319
A sales conversation is one of the biggest ones that you've got, right?
00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:19.279
It is the first time someone decides to trust you with their money.
00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:26.240
And if you do this for a living, like a lot of you listening do, it's also the first time they decide to trust you with their problem.
00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:36.960
I want to drop a stat at you that we talked a little bit about in my round table episode last week on customer experience with Katrina and Erica.
00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:44.799
And you according to you guys, 52% of customers will leave a brand after just two bad experiences.
00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:45.679
Two.
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:49.440
Two bad experiences and they are gone.
00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.720
And you know what this equates to in sales dollars?
00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:58.000
$1.6 trillion is lost annually by US-based companies.
00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.840
This is according to Accenture, to companies switching brands after bad experiences.
00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:07.360
52% of customers, you you do something they don't like twice and they are gone.
00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:10.639
Sales is one of those moments.
00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:19.120
Sales is a part of the experience because a sales conversation is a promise.
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:24.399
Every single thing you say while you're selling is a commitment about what the experience is going to feel like.
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:34.159
If I tell you the Mahi Mahi, if it's not 86 yet, is going to be the best thing you eat this month, I have just made a promise that the kitchen now has to keep.
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:49.519
If you tell a client on a discovery call that working with you is going to feel supportive and collaborative and easy, you've made a promise to them that you're onboarding, your delivery, your inbox, and all your team, they're gonna have to keep that promise too.
00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:58.159
And this is why I think it is so important that sales and delivery are all working from the same standard.
00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.879
In the would recommend standard, I call this promise, right?
00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.159
It's the non-negotiables of how you show up in every interaction.
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:10.320
The sales conversation is where that promise gets made out loud for the first time.
00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:23.759
So if your sales process runs on one set of values and your delivery runs on another, your customer is going to feel that gap even if they cannot name it, right?
00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:26.480
Then the Mahi-Mahi quota is a good example of that gap.
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:30.399
The restaurant probably says somewhere on its website that it cares about its guests having a wonderful night.
00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:36.480
And then the thing that actually drives the pre-shift huddles and maybe direction that management is giving is a fish count.
00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.440
Two different standards running the same building.
00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:46.720
So, what does selling as helping, selling as a part of a standard with your customer experience actually look like?
00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:50.320
It looks like asking before telling.
00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:53.360
Maybe what are you in the mood for tonight?
00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:55.279
Maybe are we celebrating anything?
00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:57.039
Maybe have you been here before?
00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:00.639
This needs to be about the guest and not the fish.
00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:04.960
It also looks like listening for the thing underneath the thing.
00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:14.240
If someone says to me when I'm at a winery they don't like a certain style of wine, I get a clue about their palate instead of, oh, this is now an objection.
00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:16.080
I need to change their mind.
00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:23.039
In the standard, this is all about what I call person, which is knowing your customer beyond the demographics.
00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:29.039
It's understanding how they think, how they feel, it's how they make decisions, and then serving them on those terms.
00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:35.919
A server who's helping is paying attention and doing voice of customer research in real time.
00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:37.440
They just don't call it that.
00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.840
And this is where I think the platinum rule comes into things, right?
00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.799
And it's definitely has to be present in your sales process.
00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:49.519
The golden rule is treat others as you would like to be treated.
00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:50.480
Cool.
00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:51.600
But no, no, no, no.
00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:57.519
When we're talking about experience, we want the platinum rule, which is treat others as they want to be treated.
00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:02.799
And never is that so present as in the sales conversation.
00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:13.120
And in the panel, Kristen said something that I really loved, which was when you see a customer at a fork in the road, it takes the pressure off having to get a yes.
00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:17.200
Because sometimes the honest answer is actually, that's the I'm not the right fit.
00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:23.519
Let me point you in the direction instead, which is a perfectly acceptable outcome of a sales conversation.
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:29.279
Jen Posick, who was also on the panel, told a story that really shows why this matters.
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:31.600
So earlier this year, she had a sales conversation about a program.
00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:33.200
It just wasn't the right fit for her.
00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:36.559
And instead of pushing it, the person selling it agreed with her.
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:37.679
They said, You're right.
00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:39.200
It's probably not the best time.
00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:42.000
And months later, when the timing was right, she came back and joined.
00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:45.519
Now she's joining with her full energy and she's excited about it.
00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:51.679
Christina Bartold, who was on the show uh with high vibe women, they own a marketing agency called the Social Snippet.
00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:55.279
And Christina's gonna be the first person to say to potential clients, you know what?
00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:57.440
You don't need to be focusing on this right now.
00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:00.320
This is not where you should be spending your money.
00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:04.879
Serving as helping, not serving as convincing.
00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:11.200
So let's talk about what this does to your business.
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.000
Because at the end of the day, I'm an operations girly.
00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:27.759
If your sales depend on your charisma and your ability to push past resistance and to you see the customer as obstacle, then your sales process can only happen when you're in the room.
00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.279
You can't write charisma into a process or Riz.
00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:32.799
Kids still saying Riz.
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:39.440
You can't hand your personal magnetism to the next person you hire and say, here, this is how we do it.
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:45.759
Everything is gonna, in that scenario, everything routes back to your decisions, your tastes, your standards, and your way of reading people.
00:13:46.000 --> 00:14:04.080
There are so many founder-led businesses that hit a ceiling because they might look like the best closer on the team and that they're good at sales calls, but the moment you take a vacation or hire a salesperson or step back so you can actually run the company, things fall apart, right?
00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:08.320
On the other hand, selling as helping is teachable.
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:17.600
When you can understand what someone needs, what they're unsure of, what they're afraid of, and that can be written down, trained, and handed to someone else, the questions live in the process.
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:21.120
The standard can live in a document, and your whole team works from it.
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:31.759
And that's how you build a business that is going to grow, that is going to scale, it's going to thrive without you in the room because you're not the only one who knows how to have the conversation anymore.
00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:38.399
The last reason that this matters, and for a show called Would Recommend, it's the big one.
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.759
People who get convinced got a yes out of a moment.
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:48.240
But people who get helped walk away with a story.
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:58.399
They tell their friends how they were guided, how they felt looked after, how they never felt like somebody was trying to push Mahi-Mahi on them when they really wanted the steak frites that night.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.919
So think about last time you recommended a restaurant to someone.
00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:10.799
I would, I would bet real imaginary money, that the reason you remember it is likely because of how your server handled it.
00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:18.399
Maybe they read the table, they steered you towards something great, maybe they talked you out of something and said, actually, no, that that might not be something for you.
00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:20.480
Maybe that spicy margarita is way too spicy.
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:21.200
You don't like spicy.
00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:22.639
Try this instead.
00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:25.679
Because that's what turns a sales conversation into a referral.
00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:30.720
So in the would recommend standard, the progression goes from the market saying it would buy, right?
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:34.000
This is the first thing we do with promise, path, and person.
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:37.679
Check out the last uh episode two weeks ago if you want to dive deep into this.
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:39.440
But it's it's getting that yes.
00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:41.120
It's getting that I'd buy it.
00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:46.000
But what we're really trying to get to is to a customer saying I'd return.
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:52.080
Convincing gets you a sale, and maybe the first one, maybe the only one, if you're good.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.200
Helping is what gets you the sale.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:16:01.200
It gets them to come back, and it gets them saying your name in rooms that you're not in.
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:06.960
So if you want to do something with this episode today, here's what I'd suggest: go collect some sales experiences.
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.360
This is one of the takeaways I offered at the end of the panel.
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.480
I've always considered myself a collector of experiences.
00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:21.200
And one of the most useful things you can do as a business owner is go through other people's sales processes as a customer.
00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:28.080
Call a business, see what they tell you over the phone, book a consult, pay attention to a server at a dinner you go to this weekend.
00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:35.840
And every time something feels off, or every time you feel so completely looked after, figure out why.
00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:37.360
How did that person treat you?
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:38.080
What did they say?
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:39.279
How did you feel?
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.080
And once you've done this, go back and look at your own sales process.
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:47.039
Pull up the last few conversations you had, or the last couple of DMs, or your sales page.
00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:53.440
Where are you leading with the thing you need to move instead of the thing they came in for?
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:58.080
Where are you handling a concern that you could have been curious about instead?
00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.080
Where is your mahi-mahi?
00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:06.720
Because the sale is often the first moment that matters in customer experience.
00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:16.160
And it is where people are going to decide whether you are a business that listens or you are a business that sees them as a transaction.
00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.680
That is it for today's episode of Would Recommend.
00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:25.200
If this one landed for you, I would love for you to share this with a friend send to a business bestie who needs to hear it.
00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:27.759
That is how the show grows, one recommendation at a time.
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:31.519
I would also love it if you would rate, review, and subscribe on your podcast for writer of choice.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:32.720
Leave a comment on Spotify.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:34.160
Genuinely, I love getting them.
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:43.440
And if you are listening to this episode and thinking about your own sales process and wondering where this elusive mahi-mahi is hiding, that's exactly the kind of thing we dig into in a spark session.
00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:48.319
It's a 90 minute strategy session, just you and me looking at how your sales and your delivery line up.
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.559
And if they're telling two different stories, you can find that at the link in the show notes.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:53.920
I'm Nikki McKnight.
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:01.039
This is Would Recommend, and I'm gonna see you next week with more on how to help your business become the one that people can't stop talking about.
