00:00:00Coming Up...
00:01:25Whats the most memorable experience you've had as an Interior designer?
ABOUT THIS EPISODE
Can workplace design actually save lives?
In this episode of Workspace Design Lab, host Sylvanna VanderPark welcomes Kay Sargent, Senior Principal and Director of Thought Leadership at HOK. With four decades of design experience, Kay shares how thoughtful design impacts not only productivity but human safety, behavior, and inclusion. This powerful conversation explores real-world stories, the science behind effective office design, and what companies must do to truly support neurodiverse teams. From life-saving design decisions to building spaces people actually want to return to, this episode is packed with practical, evidence-based insight for architects, interior designers, and workplace leaders.
Whether you're navigating return-to-office challenges or designing for diverse work styles, this episode offers real strategies that go far beyond aesthetics.
KEY TAKEAWAYS
• Great spaces are built with human behavior and evidence-based design at the core
• Designers can impact lives - sometimes even save them - through thoughtful planning
• The return-to-office challenge is only 40% about space, and 60% about leadership and culture
• Neurodiversity must be considered in workspace planning to drive inclusion and engagement
• Personalization options - like shielding and temperature control - can transform work experience
• Environmental-based working is rising as people choose spaces based on sensory needs
• Offices that lack natural energy, movement, or biophilia hinder wellbeing
• The “perfect desk” doesn’t exist, but a variety of tailored zones can serve everyone
• Generational shifts reveal different levels of self-awareness about neurotypes and triggers
• AI can’t replace human-centric design that accounts for behavior, safety, and function
🔗 Explore NovaLink’s product and process for effortless workspace design.
Workspace Design Lab | Healthy Spaces, Lasting Impact
Join host Sylvanna "Syl" VanderPark as we explore ergonomic office design, modern interiors, and sustainable workspace solutions with architects, designers, and industry leaders.
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💡 If this conversation helped you reimagine what a workspace can be, share it with a colleague or client. Together we can design offices that support wellbeing, productivity, and lasting impact.
Produced by APodcastGeek
English
United States
IN THIS EPISODE
SHOW NOTES 🔗
TRANSCRIPT 🔗
WEBVTT
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There's this moment that you realize you really do have a big impact on individuals.
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And it's not just about creating pretty spaces when you're getting phone calls from people who are in a space that either help save their lives, literally.
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That is key.
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Sargeant, senior principal and director of Thought Leadership for interviews at each okay with 40 years in design and a mission that goes way beyond esthetics.
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She believes that the most powerful spaces are the ones that help people function, engage, and thrive.
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We as interior designers really need to lean into the science of design, not just the art of it.
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And we need to lead with evidence based solutions.
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She explains what separates good looking from truly effective design decisions grounded on evidence, behavior and real human outcomes.
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So we would say that there's kind of 12 key things that help determine whether your return to office policies are going to be successful.
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A lot of this is really about how do you manage people, how do you communicate, how are you creating a compelling vision or a sense of belonging?
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She reveals why great workplaces are not built on design alone, but through a simple framework that helps companies turn offices into a place people actually want to come back to.
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By the end of this conversation, you will learn how to design workspaces that support different people, different work styles, and the real behaviors companies do to help people thrive.
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I'm Savannah Vander Park and this is workspace Design Lab.
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What's the most memorable experience you've had as an interior designer?
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And it doesn't necessarily have to, you know, focus on neuro inclusion or anything like that, but maybe it does.
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What's a memorable experience that you've had and when that kind of changed your focus?
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I think as an interior designers, there's this moment that you realize you really do have a big impact on individuals, and it's not just about creating, you know, pretty spaces, etc., but, you know, often in early in my career, I had the opportunity to work on some amazing projects.
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But when you're getting phone calls from people who are in a space that either helped save their lives, literally, or they're in spaces that have changed their lives because they're able to function or to be able to engage.
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Those are always kind of the most impactful and the most important moments as a designer that really do solidify this notion that, we have a big impact and the built environment absolutely is impacting the individuals that are in it.
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And how we design that, can either make people be very successful or it can make them struggle.
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I'm interested in the designing a space that can save people's lives.
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How would you, explain that one?
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Yeah.
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So early in my career, I did a lot of security work, and we were designing a very high secure control center.
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And we basically argued that they could not go in certain buildings because they had to stay in the buildings.
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They could not evacuate those buildings in time in an emergency.
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And so they had to basically go into a building that was, you know, not a high target and couldn't be, you know, residual damage.
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Could it be collateral damage?
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That really needed to be in a space that was, you know, kind of in the middle of nowhere.
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Everybody go by it every single day, never paid any attention to it.
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And people that we were designing the space for didn't really want to do that.
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They wanted to go into a building where all the other federal law enforcement agencies were.
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There was much more high profile.
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And we argued, you can't you should not be in a building like that.
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You should be in the middle of nowhere and do anything, everything in your power to make the building as invisible as possible.
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And so the decision was made that they would do that, and they were not very happy about that.
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But it, the building that they had wanted to go into was the Twin Towers in New York.
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And if they would have been in those towers, they would not have been able to evacuate the building and they would have perished.
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And so, September 12th, when I got a phone call saying thank you.
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Oh, wow.
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We got time to say right now, it was impactful because we were like, oh, and with the right decisions, and they should not have been in a building that might have been seen to be glamorous and everything else, but it just did not.
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It was not the place for that impactful design, thoughtful design, responsible design is thinking about the safety, the well-being of the user, as opposed to following some kind of trend jumping on the bandwagon.
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Unless the bandwagon is health and wellness in the workplace, I imagine trends gets a bad rap because there's a difference between trends and fads.
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Fads or things that are here that are temporary, that may not have a lot of justification to them, but they're just kind of the IT thing.
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Trends are where things are going, and they're usually rooted in very good reasons.
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So the need to create spaces that are more magnetic and have address health and well-being are really well grounded in some of the basic business needs of a lot of companies today to create spaces where they're people will want to be and where they can thrive and be successful.
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That's not a fad.
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That's a trend.
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But to your point, we can't just focus on, okay, what's happening right now.
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We have to really think about what people are doing.
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How do we design spaces that will really help them thrive, and then a well-suited for the type of work that they're doing.
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And so we as interior designers really need to lean into the science of design, not just the art of it.
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And we need to lead with evidence based solutions so that the recommendations we're making will stick and are solid and will help people be successful.
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What do you see as the steps, we need to take in companies to succeed in welcoming workers back?
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So we would say that there's kind of 12 key things that help determine whether your return to office policies are going to be successful, and only about five of them have to do with space.
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So I really believe that the real estate industry, the design industry has been set up for failure, because basically it's like, okay, create this amazing space.
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How solve all of our problems.
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A lot of this is really about how do you manage people, how do you communicate, how are you creating a compelling vision or a sense of belonging, like all of those things in the space can help with some of those things, but it cannot do it by itself.
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We have to connect people to something bigger than themselves.
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We have to give them a strong sense of purpose.
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And if we're bringing people in the office so that they can be together and where they can, you know, learn from each other in osmosis, then we have to design the space intentionally to enable that, we need to decide what are we really designing for?
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What is your company value?
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You know, most offices are designed for people sitting in individual spaces, just responding to email all day and or sitting on zoom calls.
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And I don't think, quite frankly, at the end of the day, that's what most companies value.
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I think we need to reassess what it is that we do that is driving value for a business and focus on creating spaces that enable us to do that and are designed to help us, to optimize that.
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What built the company up from the beginning?
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It wasn't sitting on calls and zoom calls all day.
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It was coming together.
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I mean, it depends on what you're doing.
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Look, if you're doing, if you're an accounting firm and you're doing individual reviews, etc., then you probably are doing a lot of individual work.
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If you are sales and you're, you know, or a creative organization and you're doing a lot of team thinking that having ideation spaces or areas where people can really kind of flesh that out is important.
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If you're, selling and you need to be able to promote things, having spaces that enable people either to do it virtually and or in person is important or engaging with your clients.
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Right?
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So I think we need to think about what is it that we really are doing.
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And what kind of behaviors do we want people to have.
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And this is my big issue right now with a lot of sensors, you know, sensors are collecting and analyzing what people are doing.
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They aren't necessarily saying, is that what you actually want those people to be doing?
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And so if you're collecting this information and say, this is how your people are using the space, this is how you should design for the future.
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It basically totally negates this notion that you're accepting that the people's behavior in the office today is what you want.
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And I think in many cases it actually isn't.
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And we need to really rethink how do we want to be spending our time.
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So like in schools they have learning profiles.
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And so I guess what we're talking about is like a working profile basically.
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Yeah.
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Because 20 years ago they didn't have learning profiles.
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And now there's something new.
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And that's part of the reason why we have this huge wave of awareness about people's, nuances and their, their traits and their, you know, different things that, the neuro types.
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Right.
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But we haven't necessarily really addressed that in the workplace.
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I think the more and more that we can start to really think about, how people function best, that will just lead to better engagement.
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So I walked into a business recently and on one of the doors for the CEO, he had, you know, his name and then had 3 or 4 bullets about how he preferred to communicate short sentences to the point graphs.
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CFO next door was all the facts in writing and the data, right?
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So very, very different communication styles.
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And most people would probably just address them the exact same way.
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But when you see that it's a trigger to help you realize this person is not going to understand what I'm saying.
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If I don't, if I don't express it in a way that they can receive it.
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00:10:06.313 --> 00:10:12.278
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00:10:12.278 --> 00:10:18.533
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00:10:23.748 --> 00:10:25.541
All right, back to the conversation.
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I guess we should really know ourselves how what our working profile is.
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You know, how we like to communicate and how we can receive information and, you know, know as much about ourselves as possible.
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And I don't think most people really do.
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Yeah.
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I don't think we really, you know, until you really start to think about this, you know, if you do a spoke, a spiky profile, you can start to get those assessments pretty quickly and you can start to see what your, triggers are.
00:10:54.195 --> 00:10:57.365
But I tend to process things very, very quickly.
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That has complications for mean.
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Sometimes I can finish someone's thought before they've even finished speaking, and sometimes I don't get it right.
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But then I have other people that I work with that process things very slowly and they need time.
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And so we have to kind of adjust how we collaborate so that I'm not frustrated and that person isn't feeling like they're being forced into making decisions that they haven't really thought through.
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So it's just a matter of understanding those nuances.
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Neither what is right if they're just different.
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And it's about really understanding that so that we can figure out how to work together more successfully.
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I think that's a very common actually conflict, isn't it?
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What's the solution that you found works?
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We basically talk about it.
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I say here, I here are the options.
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I think we should do.
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Let's regroup tomorrow at this time and make a final decision.
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So it allows me to get it out real quick and say, okay, here's what I think announced that person at the time and the comfort that they need to think about it.
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But there is a timeline and it just doesn't go on forever.
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I think another really common thing is a lot of people who tend to be either, you know, maybe procrastinators or perceived to be procrastinators.
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A lot of people that are ADHD for them, time is binary, right?
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So it's either now or not now.
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Understanding that we we do things differently, I think is a really big step in meeting people where they are and knowing that your way isn't necessarily right.
00:12:51.014 --> 00:12:56.312
If someone is driving you nuts because they don't do it your way, you're driving them nuts because you don't do it theirs.
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Are you dealing with neural inclusion from a generational aspect?
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Like do you see the differences with, you know, the boomers?
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Down to I guess Gen Z is in the workplace that you're seeing?
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Yeah, I think, I think the younger generation is much more in touch because they did go through and learn their learning styles.
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You know, I mean, 20 years ago in an educational system, we changed the way that we kind of assess kids in school.
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And so I think the younger generation is far more in touch with their, narrow type, what their strengths are, maybe what their weaknesses are, etc.
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and I think the older generation is just kind of had to suck it up and deal with it and is kind of, you know, maybe a little bit, I don't want to say in denial, but isn't as aware or tuned in because we've just kind of always just had to compensate and, you know, try to mask and deal with it.
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And so I think there's also, as kids are getting diagnosed right now, there's a wave of mid-life diagnoses where people, people who are watching their kids get diagnosed or ADHD.
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I use 80 to 90% hereditary.
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The doctor is like, all right, looking at you, mom and dad.
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Like, you know which one of you might be?
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For the first time ever, really understanding why they might do things differently or struggle in certain exams in certain situations, or excel in certain situations where other people do not.
00:14:15.682 --> 00:14:22.939
And I think all of that just helps us have a richer understanding about ourselves and how we communicate with other people.
00:14:22.939 --> 00:14:30.155
Would you say there's more compassion workplace design now, or is it just more, maybe more understanding or awareness?
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Maybe. Maybe that awareness is awareness is first.
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I don't think the full understanding is really there yet that that is yet to come.
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Compassion.
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I think a lot of our corporate clients and a lot of our higher ed clients understand that this is a workforce and the student body that they are dealing with, and they need to embrace it and lean in because they want to be able to help everybody thrive.
00:14:54.388 --> 00:15:03.438
But when you look at some of the legislation and regulations that are coming out of, you know, certain groups, I think it's a lack of passion, actually.
00:15:03.980 --> 00:15:10.196
And so I think, you know, one group is going, to eliminate some of these things.
00:15:10.196 --> 00:15:16.284
Other groups are leaning into it even more, just not just because it's a reality of what to deal with, I think.
00:15:16.701 --> 00:15:23.417
So, but I do believe that there is a far greater understanding or just an awareness about this.
00:15:23.417 --> 00:15:27.587
I mean, nine years ago when we started talking about neurodiversity, nobody knew what we were talking about.
00:15:27.587 --> 00:15:28.880
Now, almost everybody does.
00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:36.221
And it's a term batted around, and I can't tell you how many times I'll be on a panel, and somebody else on that panel will use that term before I do. Right?
00:15:36.221 --> 00:15:37.264
Right. Yeah.
00:15:37.264 --> 00:15:43.687
So I guess where before it used to be, you know, I would be the only one kind of that little lone bird off to the side.
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It's one thing to say, okay. Yes.
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We're, we're you know, some people could call it a crutch or this or that, but you don't want it to be.
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You just want it to be, you know, scaffolding to help, you know, everybody get ahead and learn why we let people wear glasses in the office who have difficulty with eyesight.
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We have people wear hearing aids.
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We have people with walkers and canes and wheelchairs.
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Right.
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Those are all accommodations to help somebody be able to be successful in this space.
00:16:12.382 --> 00:16:30.317
I don't think a lot of the things that we are talking about with that different, but I do think one of the challenges are May, you know, a lot of these are invisible disabilities and there's a lack of understanding, and a lot of people don't even understand what their own triggers are because we've gotten so good at hiding it or masking it that we don't even understand it.
00:16:31.526 --> 00:16:43.246
And, you know, there's a lot of people that are asking for quiet and quiet out of context can be really creepy, and it's a form of sensory deprivation that can actually lead to other issues or challenges.
00:16:43.246 --> 00:16:45.165
But people keep asking for that.
00:16:45.165 --> 00:16:52.673
And I think, you know, in most spaces, it's not that spaces are too loud, it's that they're almost too quiet and there's no background hum.
00:16:52.673 --> 00:16:54.799
And so you can clearly hear what everybody is saying.
00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:58.846
And you want a space that has a little bit of energy, a little bit of buzz.
00:16:59.096 --> 00:17:04.226
But you don't want it to be so, you know, the acoustics.
00:17:04.226 --> 00:17:06.979
So I can clearly hear what every single person is saying.
00:17:06.979 --> 00:17:08.689
And that's incredibly distracting.
00:17:08.689 --> 00:17:10.191
So we have to get it right.
00:17:10.191 --> 00:17:13.068
And I think we're still kind of trying to explore that.
00:17:13.068 --> 00:17:25.331
And I think a lot of people right now just don't even really understand, because we have had to mask for so long and, and just suck it up that we're really not that in touch with our sensory intelligence.
00:17:25.331 --> 00:17:31.045
For some people, like for me, I relax when I've got like a TV going on off to the side.
00:17:31.045 --> 00:17:38.844
I'm not necessarily watching it, but it's company, it's something, and my brain opens up more when I've just got more things happening.
00:17:38.844 --> 00:17:41.096
It's the difference between hyper and hyper, right?
00:17:41.096 --> 00:17:56.028
Where there are a lot of people that need that additional stimulation or they need harp music playing, or they, you know, some people have oral fixation, some people, you know, have to move, fidget, do something with their hands rocked back and forth.
00:17:56.028 --> 00:18:01.492
We kind of all have our little coping mechanisms, but it can be very, very different for every individual.
00:18:01.492 --> 00:18:07.206
But are there things like overarching like, okay, like for kids, it's like, is it recommended?
00:18:07.206 --> 00:18:13.461
You know, after they're learning something for 30 minutes, they should go outside and run around, you know, and get the the energy out.
00:18:13.461 --> 00:18:18.801
Are there things like that that you see coming through that you're saying, all right, we've got a recess go out.
00:18:18.801 --> 00:18:21.303
And yeah, and there's some common things.
00:18:21.303 --> 00:18:21.512
Right.
00:18:21.512 --> 00:18:32.148
Like so if you're whether you're hypersensitive or hypersensitive, if you're trying to focus or concentrate, having been in a space where everybody is lingering right in front of you and talking is going to distract you.
00:18:32.148 --> 00:18:35.151
I don't care if you're hyper sensitive or hypo.
00:18:35.317 --> 00:18:38.112
And so there are absolutely some commonalities.
00:18:38.112 --> 00:18:39.905
And then there there's some differences.
00:18:39.905 --> 00:18:44.160
I do believe that there is a lot of behaviors that we're doing today that are not helping.
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.120
Screen time is not helping.
00:18:46.120 --> 00:18:49.038
Lack of physical activity is not helping.
00:18:49.038 --> 00:18:54.086
Lack of being outdoors and in touch with biophilia in nature is not helping.
00:18:54.086 --> 00:18:56.922
Artificial lights are not helping.
00:18:56.922 --> 00:19:07.391
You know, there's there's a lot of things that people are saying specifically for children, if we want them to be more successful, there's some behavioral things that we need to address.
00:19:07.391 --> 00:19:13.355
And there's a raging debate right now about are we over diagnosing ADHD?
00:19:13.355 --> 00:19:17.817
And there's a lot of this really just, environmental things that people aren't doing.
00:19:17.817 --> 00:19:26.786
For instance, kids who are sitting in their bedroom all day that aren't exercising or active, that aren't getting fresh air, that are eating poorly, you know, is that making there?
00:19:26.786 --> 00:19:27.828
Is that the issue?
00:19:27.828 --> 00:19:38.756
And I think a lot of people will say that in itself does not make you ADHD, but if you are ADHD, that on top of it could exacerbate it even more.
00:19:38.756 --> 00:19:42.259
And so it's almost like an accelerant, those behavioral issues.
00:19:42.259 --> 00:19:49.850
And so first step is let's address some of those things to see the impact that it has.
00:19:50.476 --> 00:19:52.894
And can it help people.
00:19:53.938 --> 00:19:56.440
You know initially just way off the bat.
00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:56.607
Right.
00:19:56.607 --> 00:20:03.280
And I think about again, the whole issue is are we over diagnosing or even over medicating, and are there other things that might be able to help them?
00:20:03.280 --> 00:20:09.829
You know, I guess it's up to companies or really a person, if they go to the doctors, might that, you know, good habits for them.
00:20:09.829 --> 00:20:16.293
You know, I think probably would be overstepping for a corporation, a business to say, all right, let's all, you know, go out for a walk.
00:20:16.293 --> 00:20:19.046
Now, you know, you're like, I'm in the middle of something.
00:20:19.046 --> 00:20:28.556
But I mean, the studies that show how access to natural, you know, fresh air, different view, physical activity is it's just not you can't even dispute it.
00:20:28.556 --> 00:20:28.848
Right.
00:20:28.848 --> 00:20:34.269
And so it's actually good for almost anybody and everybody, to do a little bit of that.
00:20:34.269 --> 00:20:39.400
So those are kind of things that most people believe are not going to hurt anybody.
00:20:36.772 --> 00:20:39.400
They're probably going to help.
00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:45.865
It's not gonna solve your problem, or your challenges, but it it could help significantly.
00:20:45.906 --> 00:21:04.967
And so anything that we can do in our little realm that can't because we're not medical doctors and we're, we're, you know, we're basically trying to leverage what we know best, the built environment, to the extent that we can to help people thrive and feel better in their spaces with the tools that we have at our disposal.
00:21:04.967 --> 00:21:08.512
I mean, I'm happy with, you know, just talking about what we have.
00:21:08.512 --> 00:21:09.555
I'm grateful.
00:21:09.555 --> 00:21:19.773
So, you know, I really enjoy, like I said, you know, learning about, you know, looking to see how it applies to our furniture and trying to think, how can we be more thoughtful?
00:21:19.773 --> 00:21:22.776
You know, as you know, we're looking at our desks.
00:21:22.902 --> 00:21:30.492
Can we do little things that, you know, address sensory needs, like, you know, there's different than, you know, there's task lights that we can offer.
00:21:30.492 --> 00:21:34.747
There's, you know, maybe some shielding, some things like that.
00:21:34.913 --> 00:21:36.123
Right. Yeah.
00:21:36.123 --> 00:21:42.630
Some, you know, personal temperature, units kind of thing if you need to be cooler, warmer.
00:21:42.838 --> 00:21:44.590
Because those were the top three things.
00:21:44.590 --> 00:21:45.758
It was like sound.
00:21:45.758 --> 00:21:50.512
And there's this desire for furniture and spaces to solve all of our problems for us.
00:21:50.512 --> 00:21:53.098
And the most flexible thing in any environment is the people.
00:21:53.098 --> 00:21:56.101
Not the furniture, not the not the architectural elements.
00:21:56.101 --> 00:21:58.394
We need to empower people to get up and move.
00:21:58.394 --> 00:22:01.148
And so there will never be a dance that is perfect for everybody.
00:22:01.148 --> 00:22:19.583
But if you could create some options and choices and maybe have different types of desk with different levels of shielding or adjustments in different areas, people can get up and move to those spaces and kind of find a space that is well suited or tailored to them.
00:22:19.583 --> 00:22:23.420
That is really, I think, what we are striving for, right?
00:22:23.711 --> 00:22:25.255
You know, one size fits all.
00:22:25.255 --> 00:22:27.173
So you're you're never going to design the perfect thing.
00:22:27.173 --> 00:22:31.095
But it's a combination of solutions in different settings.
00:22:31.095 --> 00:22:34.139
That is really what's going to be beneficial for a lot of people.
00:22:34.139 --> 00:22:53.450
So if I know that I'm hypo sensitive or I'm let's say I'm hypersensitive and I don't like my back being exposed, or I don't like being on a main corridor, even if all the desk are fairly similar and they've got to set up even the ability for me to choose a desk that is away from a busy corridor, maybe off to the side, has a little bit more shielding.
00:22:53.993 --> 00:23:00.708
I will be better off than if you randomly set me on a corridor with my back exposed, right across from a busy conference room.
00:23:00.708 --> 00:23:03.711
My ability to function would just drop like a rock.
00:23:03.919 --> 00:23:12.970
And so a lot of it is just having that options and choice about where to sit and how I'm positioned, even maybe even in that space.
00:23:12.970 --> 00:23:21.979
I've probably seen your floor plans, you know, over the years seeing, you know, the the differences, you know, the different work areas and stuff like that.
00:23:21.979 --> 00:23:30.946
But I'm just so curious to see, you know, for it to become kind of conversation and all the projects that we go into, you know, from big company to little company.
00:23:30.946 --> 00:23:35.242
Yeah, I think a lot of our clients right now, you know, there's a lot of people who say open environments are horrible for everybody.
00:23:35.242 --> 00:23:36.826
And I don't necessarily think that's true.
00:23:36.826 --> 00:23:39.580
I do believe there's a lot of open environments that are poorly designed.
00:23:39.580 --> 00:23:43.292
By putting everybody back in private offices is not the answer either.
00:23:43.292 --> 00:23:47.921
I think we need to create different zones, different.
00:23:47.921 --> 00:23:51.467
I, we need to think about spatial sequencing, and we do need to think about different types of settings.
00:23:51.467 --> 00:23:57.346
So people have a little bit of option and choice and control and they really, truly can be more successful.
00:23:57.346 --> 00:24:13.781
So we're also really kind of going above and beyond activity based working and embracing this notion of environmental based working, where I think a lot of people choose where to sit when they have a choice, not necessarily based on, oh, well, this one is the perfect activity for me.
00:24:13.781 --> 00:24:15.407
That is a factor.
00:24:15.407 --> 00:24:22.456
But the other factor is is it by the window or away from the window and allowed space or in a quiet space? Is it warmer here or colder here?
00:24:22.456 --> 00:24:31.882
There's a variety of things, mostly environmental conditions, that might go into our thought process when we're making a selection about where we want to sit.
00:24:32.298 --> 00:24:40.015
And so anything and everything that we can do to enable those individuals to get that information faster is going to help.
00:24:40.224 --> 00:24:44.603
I am going to just talk about your book here for a bit, because this has got, you know, all the information.
00:24:44.603 --> 00:24:49.566
It's you said it's like eight years of of, of research.
00:24:49.566 --> 00:24:51.067
I never thought I would write a book.
00:24:51.067 --> 00:24:54.196
I actually thought I'd get in my whole career without ever having to write a book.
00:24:54.196 --> 00:24:59.535
But we were asked to do it, and we had so much information that we just thought it would be important for us to share that.
00:24:59.535 --> 00:25:04.957
So we made the decision to do it, and I think there's still a lot of learning to do.
00:25:04.998 --> 00:25:15.801
But, one of the things that I am most proud of is his willingness really, to take all of that intellectual property and capital and to put it out there for everybody.
00:25:15.801 --> 00:25:18.679
We don't just talk about neurodiversity and inclusion and workplaces.
00:25:18.679 --> 00:25:21.515
We talk about all of our research on workplace.
00:25:21.515 --> 00:25:26.103
We talk about, a variety of different settings as well.
00:25:26.103 --> 00:25:31.066
And there's a lot of personal information and interviews and discussions and case studies.
00:25:31.066 --> 00:25:42.870
And so hopefully, there's something in there for almost everybody where whether you're a parent, a caregiver, you know, someone who's neurodivergent, you are neurodivergent, you are designing for people.
00:25:42.870 --> 00:25:43.704
Neurodivergent.
00:25:43.704 --> 00:25:46.498
You just care about people that are neurodivergent.
00:25:46.498 --> 00:25:52.171
There's a lot of things that we discuss in that book, and there's a lot that didn't even make it into the book.
00:25:52.171 --> 00:25:55.465
So for you, you're still doing more and more research.
00:25:55.465 --> 00:25:58.552
We're we're launching some stuff right now with University of Cambridge and a few others.
00:25:58.552 --> 00:26:09.980
So, there's a lot more to come because we're still kind of in the, nascent days of all of this, where it's still relatively new and there's a lot more that we need to understand.
00:26:09.980 --> 00:26:21.325
And if as designers, we really believe in the power of the spaces that we are designing, we have to acknowledge we need to have a better understanding of how it's impacting everyone in those spaces.
00:26:21.325 --> 00:26:33.378
The last question I like to, speak to students, you know, college students or even high school students who are looking at a, you know, a career in interior design.
00:26:33.503 --> 00:26:35.881
Do you have any kind of advice you'd give them?
00:26:35.881 --> 00:26:36.715
Absolutely.
00:26:36.715 --> 00:26:38.467
I think we're at a really pivotal point.
00:26:38.467 --> 00:26:41.678
There are a lot of people that are questioning, do they even need us anymore?
00:26:41.678 --> 00:26:50.229
Because there are tools, software packages, artificial intelligence that can they can put in some programs and create something and do they need us?
00:26:50.229 --> 00:27:19.341
And I would say that ChatGPT or generative AI right now might do a good job of creating some images that might look good, but understanding how a person is actually going to function in that space, how they're going to feel, how they're going to interact, how it's, you know, it's going to wear and tear, maintain they it's not they're but as designers, if all we're doing is doing what we think looks good and we're not really understanding how it is impacting people, we're not much better.
00:27:19.633 --> 00:27:37.484
And so we really, as an industry, need to lean into evidence based design and the science of design and really, truly understand how we are impacting people so that we can create great spaces and that will separate us from artificial intelligence for a while at least.
00:27:37.484 --> 00:27:42.531
We well, and, you know, just and just, I think that's a really important element right now to think about.
00:27:42.531 --> 00:27:45.951
I don't know if I can keep up with human development.
00:27:45.951 --> 00:27:46.910
All that.
00:27:46.910 --> 00:27:50.413
Maybe that's just, you know, kind of I feel the opposite.
00:27:50.413 --> 00:27:55.502
I think from a developmental standpoint, we are so out of sync right now with data and artificial intelligence.
00:27:55.502 --> 00:27:57.963
Just just like flying out there.
00:27:57.963 --> 00:28:02.342
And it makes me I just I think the world is getting really out of sync right now.
00:28:02.342 --> 00:28:04.970
We're living so much longer than we ever were used to.
00:28:04.970 --> 00:28:06.346
We're delaying things.
00:28:06.346 --> 00:28:12.436
We're, you know, I just don't think our bodies were ever designed for our actually how we're live living today.
00:28:12.436 --> 00:28:17.774
And I think artificial intelligence is going to change a lot of this.
00:28:17.774 --> 00:28:24.031
And I'm, I'm I think we need to be very, very careful about how we are accepting a lot of this.
00:28:24.031 --> 00:28:26.033
It can it can be a huge benefit.
00:28:26.033 --> 00:28:30.078
But there is a tremendous amount of risk in this too, and we need to really think it through.
00:28:30.078 --> 00:28:37.210
How can people, you know, get in touch with you or, you know, there's you've got to you know, I kind of do through the website.
00:28:37.210 --> 00:28:38.961
Is that the best way?
00:28:38.961 --> 00:28:39.713
Yeah.
00:28:39.713 --> 00:28:40.339
Okay.
00:28:40.339 --> 00:28:42.466
Website is a great way to do it.
00:28:42.466 --> 00:28:47.095
Or, LinkedIn is another great way to get in touch with me.
00:28:47.095 --> 00:29:03.362
And, you know, we're always happy to connect and to reach out and to help people who are thinking about this really kind of take it to the next level and or just even help, their teams understand, have a bigger understanding about what's happening and what's going on today.
00:29:03.362 --> 00:29:06.156
So always happy to do that and engage in those conversations.
00:29:06.156 --> 00:29:06.615
Thank you.
00:29:06.615 --> 00:29:10.035
I know you're super busy, so I really appreciate your time.
00:29:10.035 --> 00:29:12.037
And, great to chat with you.
00:29:12.037 --> 00:29:13.538
Yeah. It's fun.
00:29:13.538 --> 00:29:16.041
Thanks for checking out Workspace Design Lab.
00:29:16.041 --> 00:29:28.136
If you're an architect, interior designer, or workplace professional looking to stay ahead and ergonomic office design and modern workspace interiors, make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast platform.
00:29:28.470 --> 00:29:36.353
For more resources on sustainable office furniture and human centered workspace design, visit us at Novell Inc.com.
00:29:36.436 --> 00:29:37.312
Until next time.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.335
There's this moment that you realize you really do have a big impact on individuals.
00:00:03.335 --> 00:00:13.012
And it's not just about creating pretty spaces when you're getting phone calls from people who are in a space that either help save their lives, literally.
00:00:13.012 --> 00:00:13.679
That is key.
00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:22.689
Sargeant, senior principal and director of Thought Leadership for interviews at each okay with 40 years in design and a mission that goes way beyond esthetics.
00:00:22.689 --> 00:00:28.193
She believes that the most powerful spaces are the ones that help people function, engage, and thrive.
00:00:28.277 --> 00:00:34.951
We as interior designers really need to lean into the science of design, not just the art of it.
00:00:34.951 --> 00:00:37.579
And we need to lead with evidence based solutions.
00:00:37.579 --> 00:00:45.837
She explains what separates good looking from truly effective design decisions grounded on evidence, behavior and real human outcomes.
00:00:45.878 --> 00:00:55.054
So we would say that there's kind of 12 key things that help determine whether your return to office policies are going to be successful.
00:00:55.054 --> 00:01:01.810
A lot of this is really about how do you manage people, how do you communicate, how are you creating a compelling vision or a sense of belonging?
00:01:01.810 --> 00:01:12.322
She reveals why great workplaces are not built on design alone, but through a simple framework that helps companies turn offices into a place people actually want to come back to.
00:01:12.362 --> 00:01:21.581
By the end of this conversation, you will learn how to design workspaces that support different people, different work styles, and the real behaviors companies do to help people thrive.
00:01:21.748 --> 00:01:25.209
I'm Savannah Vander Park and this is workspace Design Lab.
00:01:25.459 --> 00:01:29.506
What's the most memorable experience you've had as an interior designer?
00:01:29.506 --> 00:01:35.804
And it doesn't necessarily have to, you know, focus on neuro inclusion or anything like that, but maybe it does.
00:01:35.804 --> 00:01:40.808
What's a memorable experience that you've had and when that kind of changed your focus?
00:01:40.808 --> 00:01:57.325
I think as an interior designers, there's this moment that you realize you really do have a big impact on individuals, and it's not just about creating, you know, pretty spaces, etc., but, you know, often in early in my career, I had the opportunity to work on some amazing projects.
00:01:57.700 --> 00:02:14.008
But when you're getting phone calls from people who are in a space that either helped save their lives, literally, or they're in spaces that have changed their lives because they're able to function or to be able to engage.
00:02:14.467 --> 00:02:28.605
Those are always kind of the most impactful and the most important moments as a designer that really do solidify this notion that, we have a big impact and the built environment absolutely is impacting the individuals that are in it.
00:02:28.605 --> 00:02:34.987
And how we design that, can either make people be very successful or it can make them struggle.
00:02:35.237 --> 00:02:39.533
I'm interested in the designing a space that can save people's lives.
00:02:39.533 --> 00:02:42.203
How would you, explain that one?
00:02:42.203 --> 00:02:42.579
Yeah.
00:02:42.579 --> 00:02:52.212
So early in my career, I did a lot of security work, and we were designing a very high secure control center.
00:02:52.963 --> 00:02:58.385
And we basically argued that they could not go in certain buildings because they had to stay in the buildings.
00:02:58.385 --> 00:03:01.931
They could not evacuate those buildings in time in an emergency.
00:03:01.931 --> 00:03:11.566
And so they had to basically go into a building that was, you know, not a high target and couldn't be, you know, residual damage.
00:03:11.983 --> 00:03:14.485
Could it be collateral damage?
00:03:14.485 --> 00:03:18.907
That really needed to be in a space that was, you know, kind of in the middle of nowhere.
00:03:18.907 --> 00:03:22.034
Everybody go by it every single day, never paid any attention to it.
00:03:22.034 --> 00:03:25.788
And people that we were designing the space for didn't really want to do that.
00:03:25.788 --> 00:03:30.126
They wanted to go into a building where all the other federal law enforcement agencies were.
00:03:30.126 --> 00:03:32.086
There was much more high profile.
00:03:32.086 --> 00:03:36.049
And we argued, you can't you should not be in a building like that.
00:03:36.049 --> 00:03:42.013
You should be in the middle of nowhere and do anything, everything in your power to make the building as invisible as possible.
00:03:42.013 --> 00:03:46.516
And so the decision was made that they would do that, and they were not very happy about that.
00:03:46.516 --> 00:03:52.064
But it, the building that they had wanted to go into was the Twin Towers in New York.
00:03:52.064 --> 00:03:57.819
And if they would have been in those towers, they would not have been able to evacuate the building and they would have perished.
00:03:57.819 --> 00:04:03.784
And so, September 12th, when I got a phone call saying thank you.
00:04:03.825 --> 00:04:04.326
Oh, wow.
00:04:04.326 --> 00:04:19.216
We got time to say right now, it was impactful because we were like, oh, and with the right decisions, and they should not have been in a building that might have been seen to be glamorous and everything else, but it just did not.
00:04:19.216 --> 00:04:35.190
It was not the place for that impactful design, thoughtful design, responsible design is thinking about the safety, the well-being of the user, as opposed to following some kind of trend jumping on the bandwagon.
00:04:35.190 --> 00:04:45.158
Unless the bandwagon is health and wellness in the workplace, I imagine trends gets a bad rap because there's a difference between trends and fads.
00:04:45.158 --> 00:04:51.581
Fads or things that are here that are temporary, that may not have a lot of justification to them, but they're just kind of the IT thing.
00:04:51.581 --> 00:04:56.838
Trends are where things are going, and they're usually rooted in very good reasons.
00:04:56.838 --> 00:05:13.687
So the need to create spaces that are more magnetic and have address health and well-being are really well grounded in some of the basic business needs of a lot of companies today to create spaces where they're people will want to be and where they can thrive and be successful.
00:05:13.687 --> 00:05:15.064
That's not a fad.
00:05:15.064 --> 00:05:15.732
That's a trend.
00:05:15.732 --> 00:05:20.028
But to your point, we can't just focus on, okay, what's happening right now.
00:05:20.028 --> 00:05:23.031
We have to really think about what people are doing.
00:05:23.406 --> 00:05:30.329
How do we design spaces that will really help them thrive, and then a well-suited for the type of work that they're doing.
00:05:30.329 --> 00:05:37.127
And so we as interior designers really need to lean into the science of design, not just the art of it.
00:05:37.252 --> 00:05:45.970
And we need to lead with evidence based solutions so that the recommendations we're making will stick and are solid and will help people be successful.
00:05:46.012 --> 00:05:52.476
What do you see as the steps, we need to take in companies to succeed in welcoming workers back?
00:05:52.476 --> 00:06:04.197
So we would say that there's kind of 12 key things that help determine whether your return to office policies are going to be successful, and only about five of them have to do with space.
00:06:04.197 --> 00:06:11.495
So I really believe that the real estate industry, the design industry has been set up for failure, because basically it's like, okay, create this amazing space.
00:06:11.495 --> 00:06:13.331
How solve all of our problems.
00:06:13.331 --> 00:06:25.134
A lot of this is really about how do you manage people, how do you communicate, how are you creating a compelling vision or a sense of belonging, like all of those things in the space can help with some of those things, but it cannot do it by itself.
00:06:25.134 --> 00:06:28.846
We have to connect people to something bigger than themselves.
00:06:28.846 --> 00:06:31.348
We have to give them a strong sense of purpose.
00:06:31.348 --> 00:06:44.528
And if we're bringing people in the office so that they can be together and where they can, you know, learn from each other in osmosis, then we have to design the space intentionally to enable that, we need to decide what are we really designing for?
00:06:45.071 --> 00:06:47.072
What is your company value?
00:06:47.072 --> 00:06:55.038
You know, most offices are designed for people sitting in individual spaces, just responding to email all day and or sitting on zoom calls.
00:06:55.038 --> 00:06:59.209
And I don't think, quite frankly, at the end of the day, that's what most companies value.
00:06:59.209 --> 00:07:14.809
I think we need to reassess what it is that we do that is driving value for a business and focus on creating spaces that enable us to do that and are designed to help us, to optimize that.
00:07:14.934 --> 00:07:17.437
What built the company up from the beginning?
00:07:17.437 --> 00:07:21.064
It wasn't sitting on calls and zoom calls all day.
00:07:21.064 --> 00:07:23.108
It was coming together.
00:07:23.108 --> 00:07:24.694
I mean, it depends on what you're doing.
00:07:24.694 --> 00:07:31.158
Look, if you're doing, if you're an accounting firm and you're doing individual reviews, etc., then you probably are doing a lot of individual work.
00:07:31.158 --> 00:07:43.295
If you are sales and you're, you know, or a creative organization and you're doing a lot of team thinking that having ideation spaces or areas where people can really kind of flesh that out is important.
00:07:43.295 --> 00:07:54.264
If you're, selling and you need to be able to promote things, having spaces that enable people either to do it virtually and or in person is important or engaging with your clients.
00:07:54.264 --> 00:07:54.848
Right?
00:07:54.848 --> 00:07:58.144
So I think we need to think about what is it that we really are doing.
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And what kind of behaviors do we want people to have.
00:08:00.855 --> 00:08:07.444
And this is my big issue right now with a lot of sensors, you know, sensors are collecting and analyzing what people are doing.
00:08:07.444 --> 00:08:12.240
They aren't necessarily saying, is that what you actually want those people to be doing?
00:08:12.283 --> 00:08:20.249
And so if you're collecting this information and say, this is how your people are using the space, this is how you should design for the future.
00:08:20.249 --> 00:08:28.966
It basically totally negates this notion that you're accepting that the people's behavior in the office today is what you want.
00:08:28.966 --> 00:08:31.843
And I think in many cases it actually isn't.
00:08:31.843 --> 00:08:36.224
And we need to really rethink how do we want to be spending our time.
00:08:36.224 --> 00:08:39.434
So like in schools they have learning profiles.
00:08:39.936 --> 00:08:44.856
And so I guess what we're talking about is like a working profile basically.
00:08:44.856 --> 00:08:45.149
Yeah.
00:08:45.149 --> 00:08:47.360
Because 20 years ago they didn't have learning profiles.
00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:48.277
And now there's something new.
00:08:48.277 --> 00:08:59.788
And that's part of the reason why we have this huge wave of awareness about people's, nuances and their, their traits and their, you know, different things that, the neuro types.
00:08:59.788 --> 00:09:00.914
Right.
00:09:00.914 --> 00:09:04.335
But we haven't necessarily really addressed that in the workplace.
00:09:04.335 --> 00:09:14.511
I think the more and more that we can start to really think about, how people function best, that will just lead to better engagement.
00:09:14.511 --> 00:09:31.361
So I walked into a business recently and on one of the doors for the CEO, he had, you know, his name and then had 3 or 4 bullets about how he preferred to communicate short sentences to the point graphs.
00:09:32.947 --> 00:09:39.035
CFO next door was all the facts in writing and the data, right?
00:09:39.035 --> 00:09:42.664
So very, very different communication styles.
00:09:42.956 --> 00:09:46.085
And most people would probably just address them the exact same way.
00:09:46.085 --> 00:09:52.383
But when you see that it's a trigger to help you realize this person is not going to understand what I'm saying.
00:09:52.383 --> 00:09:56.596
If I don't, if I don't express it in a way that they can receive it.
00:09:56.886 --> 00:10:06.313
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00:10:06.313 --> 00:10:12.278
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00:10:12.278 --> 00:10:18.533
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00:10:18.533 --> 00:10:23.748
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00:10:23.748 --> 00:10:25.541
All right, back to the conversation.
00:10:25.541 --> 00:10:30.837
I guess we should really know ourselves how what our working profile is.
00:10:31.212 --> 00:10:40.431
You know, how we like to communicate and how we can receive information and, you know, know as much about ourselves as possible.
00:10:40.556 --> 00:10:42.099
And I don't think most people really do.
00:10:42.099 --> 00:10:42.515
Yeah.
00:10:42.515 --> 00:10:54.195
I don't think we really, you know, until you really start to think about this, you know, if you do a spoke, a spiky profile, you can start to get those assessments pretty quickly and you can start to see what your, triggers are.
00:10:54.195 --> 00:10:57.365
But I tend to process things very, very quickly.
00:10:57.572 --> 00:10:59.033
That has complications for mean.
00:10:59.033 --> 00:11:04.955
Sometimes I can finish someone's thought before they've even finished speaking, and sometimes I don't get it right.
00:11:04.955 --> 00:11:09.293
But then I have other people that I work with that process things very slowly and they need time.
00:11:09.668 --> 00:11:22.847
And so we have to kind of adjust how we collaborate so that I'm not frustrated and that person isn't feeling like they're being forced into making decisions that they haven't really thought through.
00:11:22.847 --> 00:11:25.475
So it's just a matter of understanding those nuances.
00:11:25.475 --> 00:11:28.354
Neither what is right if they're just different.
00:11:28.354 --> 00:11:33.859
And it's about really understanding that so that we can figure out how to work together more successfully.
00:11:33.859 --> 00:11:36.778
I think that's a very common actually conflict, isn't it?
00:11:36.778 --> 00:11:39.030
What's the solution that you found works?
00:11:39.030 --> 00:11:40.908
We basically talk about it.
00:11:40.908 --> 00:11:42.701
I say here, I here are the options.
00:11:42.701 --> 00:11:44.537
I think we should do.
00:11:44.537 --> 00:11:48.832
Let's regroup tomorrow at this time and make a final decision.
00:11:48.832 --> 00:11:56.590
So it allows me to get it out real quick and say, okay, here's what I think announced that person at the time and the comfort that they need to think about it.
00:11:56.590 --> 00:11:59.176
But there is a timeline and it just doesn't go on forever.
00:11:59.176 --> 00:12:05.682
I think another really common thing is a lot of people who tend to be either, you know, maybe procrastinators or perceived to be procrastinators.
00:12:05.682 --> 00:12:09.644
A lot of people that are ADHD for them, time is binary, right?
00:12:39.294 --> 00:12:41.297
So it's either now or not now.
00:12:41.297 --> 00:12:51.014
Understanding that we we do things differently, I think is a really big step in meeting people where they are and knowing that your way isn't necessarily right.
00:12:51.014 --> 00:12:56.312
If someone is driving you nuts because they don't do it your way, you're driving them nuts because you don't do it theirs.
00:12:56.312 --> 00:12:59.689
Are you dealing with neural inclusion from a generational aspect?
00:12:59.689 --> 00:13:03.026
Like do you see the differences with, you know, the boomers?
00:13:03.026 --> 00:13:07.197
Down to I guess Gen Z is in the workplace that you're seeing?
00:13:07.656 --> 00:13:14.579
Yeah, I think, I think the younger generation is much more in touch because they did go through and learn their learning styles.
00:13:14.579 --> 00:13:20.961
You know, I mean, 20 years ago in an educational system, we changed the way that we kind of assess kids in school.
00:13:20.961 --> 00:13:29.345
And so I think the younger generation is far more in touch with their, narrow type, what their strengths are, maybe what their weaknesses are, etc.
00:13:29.345 --> 00:13:43.733
and I think the older generation is just kind of had to suck it up and deal with it and is kind of, you know, maybe a little bit, I don't want to say in denial, but isn't as aware or tuned in because we've just kind of always just had to compensate and, you know, try to mask and deal with it.
00:13:44.192 --> 00:13:55.495
And so I think there's also, as kids are getting diagnosed right now, there's a wave of mid-life diagnoses where people, people who are watching their kids get diagnosed or ADHD.
00:13:55.620 --> 00:13:57.664
I use 80 to 90% hereditary.
00:13:57.664 --> 00:14:00.668
The doctor is like, all right, looking at you, mom and dad.
00:14:00.668 --> 00:14:03.004
Like, you know which one of you might be?
00:14:03.004 --> 00:14:15.140
For the first time ever, really understanding why they might do things differently or struggle in certain exams in certain situations, or excel in certain situations where other people do not.
00:14:15.682 --> 00:14:22.939
And I think all of that just helps us have a richer understanding about ourselves and how we communicate with other people.
00:14:22.939 --> 00:14:30.155
Would you say there's more compassion workplace design now, or is it just more, maybe more understanding or awareness?
00:14:30.155 --> 00:14:33.033
Maybe. Maybe that awareness is awareness is first.
00:14:33.033 --> 00:14:37.245
I don't think the full understanding is really there yet that that is yet to come.
00:14:37.579 --> 00:14:38.456
Compassion.
00:14:40.790 --> 00:14:54.388
I think a lot of our corporate clients and a lot of our higher ed clients understand that this is a workforce and the student body that they are dealing with, and they need to embrace it and lean in because they want to be able to help everybody thrive.
00:14:54.388 --> 00:15:03.438
But when you look at some of the legislation and regulations that are coming out of, you know, certain groups, I think it's a lack of passion, actually.
00:15:03.980 --> 00:15:10.196
And so I think, you know, one group is going, to eliminate some of these things.
00:15:10.196 --> 00:15:16.284
Other groups are leaning into it even more, just not just because it's a reality of what to deal with, I think.
00:15:16.701 --> 00:15:23.417
So, but I do believe that there is a far greater understanding or just an awareness about this.
00:15:23.417 --> 00:15:27.587
I mean, nine years ago when we started talking about neurodiversity, nobody knew what we were talking about.
00:15:27.587 --> 00:15:28.880
Now, almost everybody does.
00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:36.221
And it's a term batted around, and I can't tell you how many times I'll be on a panel, and somebody else on that panel will use that term before I do. Right?
00:15:36.221 --> 00:15:37.264
Right. Yeah.
00:15:37.264 --> 00:15:43.687
So I guess where before it used to be, you know, I would be the only one kind of that little lone bird off to the side.
00:15:43.687 --> 00:15:45.981
It's one thing to say, okay. Yes.
00:15:45.981 --> 00:15:50.485
We're, we're you know, some people could call it a crutch or this or that, but you don't want it to be.
00:15:50.485 --> 00:16:02.372
You just want it to be, you know, scaffolding to help, you know, everybody get ahead and learn why we let people wear glasses in the office who have difficulty with eyesight.
00:16:02.747 --> 00:16:04.500
We have people wear hearing aids.
00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:07.544
We have people with walkers and canes and wheelchairs.
00:16:07.544 --> 00:16:07.794
Right.
00:16:07.794 --> 00:16:12.382
Those are all accommodations to help somebody be able to be successful in this space.
00:16:12.382 --> 00:16:30.317
I don't think a lot of the things that we are talking about with that different, but I do think one of the challenges are May, you know, a lot of these are invisible disabilities and there's a lack of understanding, and a lot of people don't even understand what their own triggers are because we've gotten so good at hiding it or masking it that we don't even understand it.
00:16:31.526 --> 00:16:43.246
And, you know, there's a lot of people that are asking for quiet and quiet out of context can be really creepy, and it's a form of sensory deprivation that can actually lead to other issues or challenges.
00:16:43.246 --> 00:16:45.165
But people keep asking for that.
00:16:45.165 --> 00:16:52.673
And I think, you know, in most spaces, it's not that spaces are too loud, it's that they're almost too quiet and there's no background hum.
00:16:52.673 --> 00:16:54.799
And so you can clearly hear what everybody is saying.
00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:58.846
And you want a space that has a little bit of energy, a little bit of buzz.
00:16:59.096 --> 00:17:04.226
But you don't want it to be so, you know, the acoustics.
00:17:04.226 --> 00:17:06.979
So I can clearly hear what every single person is saying.
00:17:06.979 --> 00:17:08.689
And that's incredibly distracting.
00:17:08.689 --> 00:17:10.191
So we have to get it right.
00:17:10.191 --> 00:17:13.068
And I think we're still kind of trying to explore that.
00:17:13.068 --> 00:17:25.331
And I think a lot of people right now just don't even really understand, because we have had to mask for so long and, and just suck it up that we're really not that in touch with our sensory intelligence.
00:17:25.331 --> 00:17:31.045
For some people, like for me, I relax when I've got like a TV going on off to the side.
00:17:31.045 --> 00:17:38.844
I'm not necessarily watching it, but it's company, it's something, and my brain opens up more when I've just got more things happening.
00:17:38.844 --> 00:17:41.096
It's the difference between hyper and hyper, right?
00:17:41.096 --> 00:17:56.028
Where there are a lot of people that need that additional stimulation or they need harp music playing, or they, you know, some people have oral fixation, some people, you know, have to move, fidget, do something with their hands rocked back and forth.
00:17:56.028 --> 00:18:01.492
We kind of all have our little coping mechanisms, but it can be very, very different for every individual.
00:18:01.492 --> 00:18:07.206
But are there things like overarching like, okay, like for kids, it's like, is it recommended?
00:18:07.206 --> 00:18:13.461
You know, after they're learning something for 30 minutes, they should go outside and run around, you know, and get the the energy out.
00:18:13.461 --> 00:18:18.801
Are there things like that that you see coming through that you're saying, all right, we've got a recess go out.
00:18:18.801 --> 00:18:21.303
And yeah, and there's some common things.
00:18:21.303 --> 00:18:21.512
Right.
00:18:21.512 --> 00:18:32.148
Like so if you're whether you're hypersensitive or hypersensitive, if you're trying to focus or concentrate, having been in a space where everybody is lingering right in front of you and talking is going to distract you.
00:18:32.148 --> 00:18:35.151
I don't care if you're hyper sensitive or hypo.
00:18:35.317 --> 00:18:38.112
And so there are absolutely some commonalities.
00:18:38.112 --> 00:18:39.905
And then there there's some differences.
00:18:39.905 --> 00:18:44.160
I do believe that there is a lot of behaviors that we're doing today that are not helping.
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.120
Screen time is not helping.
00:18:46.120 --> 00:18:49.038
Lack of physical activity is not helping.
00:18:49.038 --> 00:18:54.086
Lack of being outdoors and in touch with biophilia in nature is not helping.
00:18:54.086 --> 00:18:56.922
Artificial lights are not helping.
00:18:56.922 --> 00:19:07.391
You know, there's there's a lot of things that people are saying specifically for children, if we want them to be more successful, there's some behavioral things that we need to address.
00:19:07.391 --> 00:19:13.355
And there's a raging debate right now about are we over diagnosing ADHD?
00:19:13.355 --> 00:19:17.817
And there's a lot of this really just, environmental things that people aren't doing.
00:19:17.817 --> 00:19:26.786
For instance, kids who are sitting in their bedroom all day that aren't exercising or active, that aren't getting fresh air, that are eating poorly, you know, is that making there?
00:19:26.786 --> 00:19:27.828
Is that the issue?
00:19:27.828 --> 00:19:38.756
And I think a lot of people will say that in itself does not make you ADHD, but if you are ADHD, that on top of it could exacerbate it even more.
00:19:38.756 --> 00:19:42.259
And so it's almost like an accelerant, those behavioral issues.
00:19:42.259 --> 00:19:49.850
And so first step is let's address some of those things to see the impact that it has.
00:19:50.476 --> 00:19:52.894
And can it help people.
00:19:53.938 --> 00:19:56.440
You know initially just way off the bat.
00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:56.607
Right.
00:19:56.607 --> 00:20:03.280
And I think about again, the whole issue is are we over diagnosing or even over medicating, and are there other things that might be able to help them?
00:20:03.280 --> 00:20:09.829
You know, I guess it's up to companies or really a person, if they go to the doctors, might that, you know, good habits for them.
00:20:09.829 --> 00:20:16.293
You know, I think probably would be overstepping for a corporation, a business to say, all right, let's all, you know, go out for a walk.
00:20:16.293 --> 00:20:19.046
Now, you know, you're like, I'm in the middle of something.
00:20:19.046 --> 00:20:28.556
But I mean, the studies that show how access to natural, you know, fresh air, different view, physical activity is it's just not you can't even dispute it.
00:20:28.556 --> 00:20:28.848
Right.
00:20:28.848 --> 00:20:34.269
And so it's actually good for almost anybody and everybody, to do a little bit of that.
00:20:34.269 --> 00:20:39.400
So those are kind of things that most people believe are not going to hurt anybody.
00:20:36.772 --> 00:20:39.400
They're probably going to help.
00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:45.865
It's not gonna solve your problem, or your challenges, but it it could help significantly.
00:20:45.906 --> 00:21:04.967
And so anything that we can do in our little realm that can't because we're not medical doctors and we're, we're, you know, we're basically trying to leverage what we know best, the built environment, to the extent that we can to help people thrive and feel better in their spaces with the tools that we have at our disposal.
00:21:04.967 --> 00:21:08.512
I mean, I'm happy with, you know, just talking about what we have.
00:21:08.512 --> 00:21:09.555
I'm grateful.
00:21:09.555 --> 00:21:19.773
So, you know, I really enjoy, like I said, you know, learning about, you know, looking to see how it applies to our furniture and trying to think, how can we be more thoughtful?
00:21:19.773 --> 00:21:22.776
You know, as you know, we're looking at our desks.
00:21:22.902 --> 00:21:30.492
Can we do little things that, you know, address sensory needs, like, you know, there's different than, you know, there's task lights that we can offer.
00:21:30.492 --> 00:21:34.747
There's, you know, maybe some shielding, some things like that.
00:21:34.913 --> 00:21:36.123
Right. Yeah.
00:21:36.123 --> 00:21:42.630
Some, you know, personal temperature, units kind of thing if you need to be cooler, warmer.
00:21:42.838 --> 00:21:44.590
Because those were the top three things.
00:21:44.590 --> 00:21:45.758
It was like sound.
00:21:45.758 --> 00:21:50.512
And there's this desire for furniture and spaces to solve all of our problems for us.
00:21:50.512 --> 00:21:53.098
And the most flexible thing in any environment is the people.
00:21:53.098 --> 00:21:56.101
Not the furniture, not the not the architectural elements.
00:21:56.101 --> 00:21:58.394
We need to empower people to get up and move.
00:21:58.394 --> 00:22:01.148
And so there will never be a dance that is perfect for everybody.
00:22:01.148 --> 00:22:19.583
But if you could create some options and choices and maybe have different types of desk with different levels of shielding or adjustments in different areas, people can get up and move to those spaces and kind of find a space that is well suited or tailored to them.
00:22:19.583 --> 00:22:23.420
That is really, I think, what we are striving for, right?
00:22:23.711 --> 00:22:25.255
You know, one size fits all.
00:22:25.255 --> 00:22:27.173
So you're you're never going to design the perfect thing.
00:22:27.173 --> 00:22:31.095
But it's a combination of solutions in different settings.
00:22:31.095 --> 00:22:34.139
That is really what's going to be beneficial for a lot of people.
00:22:34.139 --> 00:22:53.450
So if I know that I'm hypo sensitive or I'm let's say I'm hypersensitive and I don't like my back being exposed, or I don't like being on a main corridor, even if all the desk are fairly similar and they've got to set up even the ability for me to choose a desk that is away from a busy corridor, maybe off to the side, has a little bit more shielding.
00:22:53.993 --> 00:23:00.708
I will be better off than if you randomly set me on a corridor with my back exposed, right across from a busy conference room.
00:23:00.708 --> 00:23:03.711
My ability to function would just drop like a rock.
00:23:03.919 --> 00:23:12.970
And so a lot of it is just having that options and choice about where to sit and how I'm positioned, even maybe even in that space.
00:23:12.970 --> 00:23:21.979
I've probably seen your floor plans, you know, over the years seeing, you know, the the differences, you know, the different work areas and stuff like that.
00:23:21.979 --> 00:23:30.946
But I'm just so curious to see, you know, for it to become kind of conversation and all the projects that we go into, you know, from big company to little company.
00:23:30.946 --> 00:23:35.242
Yeah, I think a lot of our clients right now, you know, there's a lot of people who say open environments are horrible for everybody.
00:23:35.242 --> 00:23:36.826
And I don't necessarily think that's true.
00:23:36.826 --> 00:23:39.580
I do believe there's a lot of open environments that are poorly designed.
00:23:39.580 --> 00:23:43.292
By putting everybody back in private offices is not the answer either.
00:23:43.292 --> 00:23:47.921
I think we need to create different zones, different.
00:23:47.921 --> 00:23:51.467
I, we need to think about spatial sequencing, and we do need to think about different types of settings.
00:23:51.467 --> 00:23:57.346
So people have a little bit of option and choice and control and they really, truly can be more successful.
00:23:57.346 --> 00:24:13.781
So we're also really kind of going above and beyond activity based working and embracing this notion of environmental based working, where I think a lot of people choose where to sit when they have a choice, not necessarily based on, oh, well, this one is the perfect activity for me.
00:24:13.781 --> 00:24:15.407
That is a factor.
00:24:15.407 --> 00:24:22.456
But the other factor is is it by the window or away from the window and allowed space or in a quiet space? Is it warmer here or colder here?
00:24:22.456 --> 00:24:31.882
There's a variety of things, mostly environmental conditions, that might go into our thought process when we're making a selection about where we want to sit.
00:24:32.298 --> 00:24:40.015
And so anything and everything that we can do to enable those individuals to get that information faster is going to help.
00:24:40.224 --> 00:24:44.603
I am going to just talk about your book here for a bit, because this has got, you know, all the information.
00:24:44.603 --> 00:24:49.566
It's you said it's like eight years of of, of research.
00:24:49.566 --> 00:24:51.067
I never thought I would write a book.
00:24:51.067 --> 00:24:54.196
I actually thought I'd get in my whole career without ever having to write a book.
00:24:54.196 --> 00:24:59.535
But we were asked to do it, and we had so much information that we just thought it would be important for us to share that.
00:24:59.535 --> 00:25:04.957
So we made the decision to do it, and I think there's still a lot of learning to do.
00:25:04.998 --> 00:25:15.801
But, one of the things that I am most proud of is his willingness really, to take all of that intellectual property and capital and to put it out there for everybody.
00:25:15.801 --> 00:25:18.679
We don't just talk about neurodiversity and inclusion and workplaces.
00:25:18.679 --> 00:25:21.515
We talk about all of our research on workplace.
00:25:21.515 --> 00:25:26.103
We talk about, a variety of different settings as well.
00:25:26.103 --> 00:25:31.066
And there's a lot of personal information and interviews and discussions and case studies.
00:25:31.066 --> 00:25:42.870
And so hopefully, there's something in there for almost everybody where whether you're a parent, a caregiver, you know, someone who's neurodivergent, you are neurodivergent, you are designing for people.
00:25:42.870 --> 00:25:43.704
Neurodivergent.
00:25:43.704 --> 00:25:46.498
You just care about people that are neurodivergent.
00:25:46.498 --> 00:25:52.171
There's a lot of things that we discuss in that book, and there's a lot that didn't even make it into the book.
00:25:52.171 --> 00:25:55.465
So for you, you're still doing more and more research.
00:25:55.465 --> 00:25:58.552
We're we're launching some stuff right now with University of Cambridge and a few others.
00:25:58.552 --> 00:26:09.980
So, there's a lot more to come because we're still kind of in the, nascent days of all of this, where it's still relatively new and there's a lot more that we need to understand.
00:26:09.980 --> 00:26:21.325
And if as designers, we really believe in the power of the spaces that we are designing, we have to acknowledge we need to have a better understanding of how it's impacting everyone in those spaces.
00:26:21.325 --> 00:26:33.378
The last question I like to, speak to students, you know, college students or even high school students who are looking at a, you know, a career in interior design.
00:26:33.503 --> 00:26:35.881
Do you have any kind of advice you'd give them?
00:26:35.881 --> 00:26:36.715
Absolutely.
00:26:36.715 --> 00:26:38.467
I think we're at a really pivotal point.
00:26:38.467 --> 00:26:41.678
There are a lot of people that are questioning, do they even need us anymore?
00:26:41.678 --> 00:26:50.229
Because there are tools, software packages, artificial intelligence that can they can put in some programs and create something and do they need us?
00:26:50.229 --> 00:27:19.341
And I would say that ChatGPT or generative AI right now might do a good job of creating some images that might look good, but understanding how a person is actually going to function in that space, how they're going to feel, how they're going to interact, how it's, you know, it's going to wear and tear, maintain they it's not they're but as designers, if all we're doing is doing what we think looks good and we're not really understanding how it is impacting people, we're not much better.
00:27:19.633 --> 00:27:37.484
And so we really, as an industry, need to lean into evidence based design and the science of design and really, truly understand how we are impacting people so that we can create great spaces and that will separate us from artificial intelligence for a while at least.
00:27:37.484 --> 00:27:42.531
We well, and, you know, just and just, I think that's a really important element right now to think about.
00:27:42.531 --> 00:27:45.951
I don't know if I can keep up with human development.
00:27:45.951 --> 00:27:46.910
All that.
00:27:46.910 --> 00:27:50.413
Maybe that's just, you know, kind of I feel the opposite.
00:27:50.413 --> 00:27:55.502
I think from a developmental standpoint, we are so out of sync right now with data and artificial intelligence.
00:27:55.502 --> 00:27:57.963
Just just like flying out there.
00:27:57.963 --> 00:28:02.342
And it makes me I just I think the world is getting really out of sync right now.
00:28:02.342 --> 00:28:04.970
We're living so much longer than we ever were used to.
00:28:04.970 --> 00:28:06.346
We're delaying things.
00:28:06.346 --> 00:28:12.436
We're, you know, I just don't think our bodies were ever designed for our actually how we're live living today.
00:28:12.436 --> 00:28:17.774
And I think artificial intelligence is going to change a lot of this.
00:28:17.774 --> 00:28:24.031
And I'm, I'm I think we need to be very, very careful about how we are accepting a lot of this.
00:28:24.031 --> 00:28:26.033
It can it can be a huge benefit.
00:28:26.033 --> 00:28:30.078
But there is a tremendous amount of risk in this too, and we need to really think it through.
00:28:30.078 --> 00:28:37.210
How can people, you know, get in touch with you or, you know, there's you've got to you know, I kind of do through the website.
00:28:37.210 --> 00:28:38.961
Is that the best way?
00:28:38.961 --> 00:28:39.713
Yeah.
00:28:39.713 --> 00:28:40.339
Okay.
00:28:40.339 --> 00:28:42.466
Website is a great way to do it.
00:28:42.466 --> 00:28:47.095
Or, LinkedIn is another great way to get in touch with me.
00:28:47.095 --> 00:29:03.362
And, you know, we're always happy to connect and to reach out and to help people who are thinking about this really kind of take it to the next level and or just even help, their teams understand, have a bigger understanding about what's happening and what's going on today.
00:29:03.362 --> 00:29:06.156
So always happy to do that and engage in those conversations.
00:29:06.156 --> 00:29:06.615
Thank you.
00:29:06.615 --> 00:29:10.035
I know you're super busy, so I really appreciate your time.
00:29:10.035 --> 00:29:12.037
And, great to chat with you.
00:29:12.037 --> 00:29:13.538
Yeah. It's fun.
00:29:13.538 --> 00:29:16.041
Thanks for checking out Workspace Design Lab.
00:29:16.041 --> 00:29:28.136
If you're an architect, interior designer, or workplace professional looking to stay ahead and ergonomic office design and modern workspace interiors, make sure to follow the show on your favorite podcast platform.
00:29:28.470 --> 00:29:36.353
For more resources on sustainable office furniture and human centered workspace design, visit us at Novell Inc.com.
00:29:36.436 --> 00:29:37.312
Until next time.
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