104 - How to use Integral Facilitation Quadrants to design successful workshops with Gabriel Couture

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What does it take to make workshops work for?
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And how can we facilitate collaboration that takes a result of that?
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My name is Miriam Hacknell, and with the Workshops Work Podcast, I'm on the mission to find the magic ingredients that make workshops work.
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Today with me on the show, it's Gabriel Court.
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And we speak about the design of workshops and events using the integrative facilitation quadrant.
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And by the way, if you don't have pen and paper at hand to take your own notes, why don't you visit workshops.org to download my free one-page web assembly.
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And now enjoy the show.
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Welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much for inviting me.
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I'm happy to be here.
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Yes, we're gonna speak about facilitation.
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What a surprise.
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Uh-huh.
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I know.
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And hopefully a little bit about facilitating events and large groups.
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I'm very curious.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I think that's been a lot of uh what's been on my mind for the last year and perhaps even more without me noticing it.
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Awesome.
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Let me pick your brain a little bit.
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And before we get there, the standard question: when did you start calling yourself a facilitator?
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I knew this was coming.
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Listen, I have two relationships with the word facilitator and that question.
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So I think the most concrete and easiest way for me to answer is I worked for a small social enterprise called Spring Strategies that was led by a uh master integral coach and facilitator called Ellen Springer.
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And she's wonderful.
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She's a genius facilitator.
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And one of the programs that we offered for people often working in the nonprofit sector was a high-impact facilitation course.
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So I participated in one of the courses in Amsterdam, a three-day course.
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Don't ask me what the year was, 2018, maybe or 2019.
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And I came out of it having learned a lot.
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And that's when I was certified from her course as being a facilitator.
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And I started thinking about facilitation as something that I did.
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Now, why do I have a funny relationship with the term?
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I have a full-time job where I'm not facilitating.
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Occasionally, I'll facilitate some meetings.
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Occasionally, I'll do like some internal workshops, but it's not common.
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So it's not my practice.
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I'm not a facilitator being paid to facilitate, even though I'm very interested in potentially moving in that direction.
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Where I think I do some facilitation and I have done facilitation in the way that I think of it, is that for a number of years now, I've worked in community building and event design, where my purpose was to try to generate opportunities for participation in an active, self-reflective, creative manner from participants, whether it's from coordinating film races over a weekend or podcast making races or self-directed like festivals where we had hundreds of speakers and people can propose their topics that they wanted to, you know, present.
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You know, so that's what I've been doing for some time.
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And at some point I realized, you know, that that was a form of facilitation too, of trying to achieve outcomes for a group of people by designing a process, you know, and not necessarily being present as the facilitator in terms of an identity that was there, but in the design itself.
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You know, I did a lot of um hackathon organizing for company for two years, and it's the same thing.
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You're you're setting the stage for stuff to happen.
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And this makes me very curious.
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So, how have you adjusted the way how you would facilitate the process or plan, design the process of these large events after having finished your facilitation certification?
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To what extent did it change the way of working, doing, thinking, facilitating?
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Uh yeah, I think the the thing I got most from the course in terms of concrete outcomes was one of the tools is a quadrant that I used that's divided into a subjective and an objective side and a personal and a collective side.
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And one quadrant is about, you know, the I, the me, the person, purpose and meaning.
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The other one is about our interpersonal relationships, uh, the other one is about actions on an individual level, and then the fourth quadrant is about systems and structures and how they work as uh impacting or sort of how we work and how we present ourselves to meetings, uh, opportunities, and so on.
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And using that framework, I was able to see how I might add a bit of content and structure that would ease participants who have different orientations into the experience and make sure that they feel involved from the get-go and comfortable.
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You know, so the thing about this quadrant, which is a quadrant that's based on integral theory, which I also have an associate coaching certification in, is that it's about capabilities, but it's also about how people orient.
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So I might be someone who very much orients from the purpose and meaning quadrant.
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I want to understand why we're doing something, you know?
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So that needs to be presented somehow in the activity for it to be a success for me.
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Because otherwise, I might wonder, what did I just spend my time doing?
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Others orient from more of an interpersonal relationship kind of position.
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And when they enter a meeting, an event, an activity, they need to know who's in the room.
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And if they know the people who are in the room, they need to know how they're feeling, where they're at, you know, which is when we do activities like out of you know, zero to ten, how do you feel right now?
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So that if you know that someone's at a one, well, don't take it too personally if they're being sort of not so cooperative because they feel like, you know, not so good.
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And so you want to position that as something that's immediately available to an attendee of whatever it is you're organizing.
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So that's how it's really shaped how I see those events, those activities, and their structure.
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I want to satisfy the need of every orientation that is present.
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I want to make sure there's an agenda.
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I want to make sure that people understand how it fits within a bigger picture.
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I want to make sure that there are actions that they're gonna take and that they understand that they're actions they're gonna take.
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I want to make sure that people are sharing, you know, are being present both emotionally, physically, well, physically today in the virtual world in a different way, but emotionally, spiritually, you know, uh just present.
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And then I want them to feel they know why they're there.
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You know, and if I can generate an alignment for everyone with those four quadrants in place in my design, then I'm already in a better position to achieve success than if I'm not.
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And before I might have done that intuitively or failed completely, but now I know to go back on a system or something that I've designed and to say, oh, I did really well in this regard, but I completely omitted that piece.
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Why?
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I must have been so distracted, or I didn't have the time to think about it well.
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Or now it's like, you know, I don't typically forget, but now it's like, okay, do I have that?
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Do I have that?
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I need to review my design.
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Here it is.
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I'm gonna add it here.
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And so that's kind of what I think.
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You basically have a checklist that would cover all the four areas of the quadrant.
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Yes.
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And then design around them to make sure that everything is present.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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And then, you know, you can think about I I like to take it even further, and then it's like, so you know, there's a time associated with your design.
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So when are those quadrants appearing and not appearing for people, right?
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It can't just be the next list of ones.
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This would have been my next question: whether there's a hierarchy in how you approach these quadrants in the sequence, but also in importance.
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Yeah, I mean, uh yes, I would say so.
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And I think it depends on the context.
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There are some activities where no one knows each other, and you'll want to make them feel more comfortable with why they're there, then just throw them into a room where they're not ready to sort of share of themselves in a way that's constructive.
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The opposite might be true too, actually, at times.
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Sometimes you want to sort of destabilize their arrival into your space where they don't know people and say, hey, I'm throwing into you into a room with strangers.
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This is the question I want you to answer.
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You know, and then they come out of that and it's like they're a bit like anxious or they're not so sure how to respond to the experience, and then you present them with something else that might like calm them down.
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So there's a hierarchy on how they're presented, but also if you look at a timeline, there's like the energy levels throughout the meeting or the workshop or the long weekend-long event where you want to sort of reinforce the fact that, oh, we should take a moment right now to reassert the why.
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You know, has a why changed from you know, yesterday when you started your short film?
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Have you had the time to sort of actually connect with the people within your team, or maybe we should have the different teams come together and talk about the challenges they're facing after 24 hours so that they're better prepared for the next 24 hours to go and accomplish their you know short film that they've decided to work on, you know, based on the container, the rules that we set for them.
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Yeah, I think there's a hierarchy because at times it makes sense in terms of what the audience wants, but there's a hierarchy in sometimes what you're trying to generate in the attendee.
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And sometimes you want to you want to make them uncomfortable.
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You know, like, okay, you're here, you have to accomplish, you know, act number one.
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Here's your first action you need to do, and you I'm not even telling you why you're here yet.
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And then you come out of that and you're wondering, okay, what am I in?
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You know, what did I get into?
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And then we move into something else where you sort of restage things so you feel more grounded.
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So to what extent is it then important to you to have an understanding of the audience or the participants?
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Because I can imagine that someone who is rather rational and maybe an introvert wants first to know the why and really, really understand why someone is asking them for their time and attention.
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Whereas others cannot wait to jump into the experience and to meet everyone.
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And they actually don't really care why they're there, as long as they can connect to other human beings.
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Yeah, it's a real challenge.
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I think the quadrants help in that regard too, because as long as you what I try to do is you try to at least check each quadrant off within a this first certain amount of time of whatever whatever it is you're designing, right?
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Even if you're starting with action and typically it'd be easier for people to start with the purpose of things, um, you're not gonna then wait till like two hours in to talk about the why.
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It has to come within the early portion of your design for you to satisfy the different orientations that people have.
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And that you know works not only with different individual personalities, but also culturally, right?
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Like you will have certain cultures that are not as comfortable going straight into a interpersonal conversation with strangers, and others need that before even getting started, right?
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Like that's the only way you're gonna get them into a state of mind that they're real willing to take some actions, design a process, think about it in a bigger picture kind of way.
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Yeah.
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And I assume that before the pandemic you used to design the experiences of on-site events.
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And there it's more or less clear who the audience is gonna be.
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And now that everything is online, it's much less uh sure or tangible who the audience will be and from where they're gonna call in from.
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So it's much more diverse culturally but also personality typewise.
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Would you design your online events and facilitate them in a different way because of this uncertainty?
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Or maybe it's something that is totally irrelevant?
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No, I I I think the approach remains very relevant.
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I think there's a whole other layer of challenge that happens online, and that's engagement.
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Right?
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Because you might have people who orient from you know a quadrant of uh purpose and meaning, but while your session is going on, while the you know, whatever it is you've designed that will satisfy that question is going on, they might actually be reading their email and like you know, watching something on YouTube that they find really interesting.
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So like your attention is so divided virtually, that the biggest challenge is to actually like grab that person who's online and supposed to be engaged with your event and make them captive to what you've designed so that you know that they're fully there and that whatever it is or orientation is being satisfied and met by what you've designed.
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And I would say that's the biggest challenge for events is that in person, your participant is almost always going to be reachable.
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You know, you can read a room or you can design something so that you keep on reminding them that they're in this activity, they're immersed in it.
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Virtually, even with the best intentions, that might not be true.
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So you really need to think slightly differently.
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And I would say the following is in my in-person design, where a group will go through the whole process, I'm answering those quadrants in the ways that we've discussed.
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When it comes to virtually, I design the event to satisfy all those needs, but I leave more room for self-directed behavior on the part of the participant to connect with what they think is most important because I know that that's what's gonna happen either way.
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How do you well I think about the sort of the narrative of how the event is presented and where there are connection points?
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You know, what are the touch points along the way that you're gonna be able to use to attract, you know, someone who really needs to be grounded within a framework, within a structure or system of some kind?
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Um, where are the opportunities for people to connect in that event, you know, and have them pick and choose, but it has to be present, it has to be designed in such a way that's very clear what the why is and what the what is of each component of your event.
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So, you know, it's like a playground and you try to give a narrative that you want them to follow, but it's a journey that they have to take themselves because you can't force them into taking a specific journey.
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It's not gonna happen.
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That's so true.
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And thereby you have the impression you have to make it interesting enough by giving choice, but not overwhelming them with choice, then it's so complicated that then they give up before they have even started.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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However, it is that you're getting them into your space virtually, you need to remove as many barriers as possible for all of those quadrants.
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You know, it has to be as immediate an experience as possible for it to be available to them.
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I actually like this twist that it's not about checking quadrants of okay, I have done that, but to see the quadrants as obstacles, as you just described it.
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And how can I remove these obstacles?
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Yes, that's an interesting point.
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Exactly.
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It's like you want to invite them into a living room, but they're already in a different mental living room, the actual physical living room.
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You want to invite them into a mental living room, but you have people who are in their own space.
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And whatever is the kind of thing that's gonna invite them in, uh, you have to clear the way of the other things that would scare them off.
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Right?
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If someone is introverted and not ready to engage with others or not will never be during your event, then that can't be one of the steps along the way to get them to connect with what you're doing.
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In person, you have a bit more leeway, right?
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You can sort of read a room or you can design something that feels more intimate on an immediate level than you can virtually, because at least people are there 100%.
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Right?
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You're well, you know what I mean.
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Like it's as much as possible.
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You can still be distracted in person.
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Yeah, and it's more self-directed.
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So you can step into a lobby and first look around or look on your phone to be sure that nobody will speak to you.
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Yes.
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If you step onto a video call, then you're immediately there, and then they throw you into a breakout room, and then there's no escape.
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Yeah.
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And I kept doing this when in your session within the brain date event that you allowed or you suggested that those participants who don't want to go into a breakout room that they can just raise their hand or add a little kind of sign before their name and giving them the chance not to engage on such a deep level so early.
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And I had the impression that this immediately changed everything and people felt actually more invited to join the wide.
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Yeah, I think you did a really great job during uh that event.
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So just for a bit of context, because I think it is useful to think about this.
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I just had an uh intentionality is really important virtually.
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I mean in person too, but virtually you have to leave space for intentionality in order for self-directedness to take place.
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So the event that you're referring to with Braindate, it's it's you know, I work for a company that offers brain dates, and brain dates is a peer-to-peer learning tool where you can connect with others based on shared interests.
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You know, so you have a sort of a marketplace of ideas that is generated by attendees, and then you can connect with them either one-on-one or in small groups around these ideas.
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So if you post something about like what are the best toppings you can put on a pizza and you make it into a group for five people, then people who want to discuss that with you can jump right in.
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You know, if you want to talk about your struggles with you know addiction, on the other hand, something much more serious, you can maybe put it out as a one-on-one topic to have something very intimate.
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But that's only if you're kind of comfortable with it.
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So for our event and for your session and for the design of such opportunities, what we're trying to do and what we think is most effective is making everything intentional on the part of the individual.
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Right.
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And what you did well is, and what a good facilitator does well somehow, is generate a sense of confidence and comfort in the attendee that they don't feel the need to, you know, just to say no, that their intention is sort of driven by the energy of the space of the leader, you know, whatever you want to call the lead, facilitator, uh, the host, in such a way that everybody participates.
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Yeah.
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And uh and you did it, for example.
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And I was not fishing for compliments because I remember that you you made me aware that this could be the case, that the participants could feel less comfortable in joining the breakout rooms.
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So you actually gave the inspiration to do that.
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I was just the executor.
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That's why I'm giving the compliment right back.
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I was not fishing for you.
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So you attended all of these events and you designed the sequence and the onboarding of it or the structure around it.
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So what have you learned from this process?
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You know, uh events remain uh very hard to do, even with the best designs, even with content that you know is gonna be really valuable.
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I think the biggest struggle now, and this is true of in-person and and virtual, but more so virtual is this idea of like the captive audience.
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We have so many distractions and things happening that to commit the stuff is a real challenge, right?
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And to design an event that is going to be successful, somehow you have to have a community of people that is willing to participate.
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And so you can do that in two ways.
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One, you already have a community, right, that you're working with.
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Or two is you try as best as possible to communicate, to you know, position your event, your experience, you know, on social media platforms, in press releases, in one-on-one conversations with people as something that like would interest them and they should take the time for themselves to attend.
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And and so, you know, I know this doesn't necessarily relate to facilitation, but I think it's also about emphasizing with where people are coming from, in that they're giving you of their time when they do ultimately choose to be there.
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And you can't provide them with a passive experience, in my mind.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:35.599
You know, it can't be one-directional, right?
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.160
Presentations are boring, like just give me a book.
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:41.359
Or like I'll watch the YouTube video of the same person speaking.
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.119
You know, you have these keynote speakers and all this stuff, and it's like, what a waste.
00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:46.319
What a waste.
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.200
Like, you know, share the YouTube link before the event.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:50.319
But that can't be the event.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:51.279
There's nothing happening.
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:59.599
So there's a respect in the fact that you've asked people to be there and that you need to satisfy where they orient.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.599
from, but also what makes it experience human.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:06.480
And that's, you know, it's it's complex.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:09.359
So I think that's maybe how it relates to facilitation.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:13.759
I th and I think it relates to facilitation as it at its core.
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:19.279
Where it's all about the group and the experience of the individual.
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:21.599
And it's not about the facilitator.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:29.599
And it's exactly about this empathy to where they're coming from and where would you like to guide them to.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:30.640
Yeah.
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:36.400
And while you were speaking, I wonder whether it is more difficult or easier.
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:40.799
I mean independent of the of the potential for distraction, I get that.
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.920
So behind the screen, it's out of your control.
00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:49.440
Well you can invite people and you can make it more interesting.
00:22:49.680 --> 00:23:00.160
But from a facilitation or logistics point of view, do you think it's easier or more difficult to deal with large groups online versus on site?
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:05.039
Well I mean the immediate difference is like getting a sense of the room, right?
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:17.599
Like I've had heard you say this actually where the one problem with breakout rooms because and they're wonderful is that you can't actually jump into the breakout room and see how people are feeling if they're awkward and can't you know don't feel comfortable with each other.
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:33.680
On the other hand, virtually with the you know little tools that we have now and the games that can be played provides like enormous amounts of flexibility and and an ability to like switch the action within the you know span of a second, right?
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:41.839
Like in person if you're dealing with 150 people and you're trying to do breakout groups of 10 people and you would like to do multiple in a row like forget it.
00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:47.200
It takes like you know 20 minutes to get people out of their conversation to join that other table over there.
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.200
It's like a massive problem to coordinate.
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:59.200
On the other hand on a you know tool like Zoom and you do breakout room you can literally have them come out of the breakout room, recreate the breakout rooms and send them back within the matter of moments.
00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:00.640
And that's fun.
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:01.680
That's really fun.
00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:05.519
That's an opportunity that you cannot reproduce in person.
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:16.319
So on the one hand I think it is a bit you know on the one hand it's harder to work with large groups while the other hand you have opportunity.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.279
So it's about how you use the tools that are available to you.
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:48.880
And what comes to my mind actually we are talking about distractions and I didn't want to bring distractions into this part of the conversation but as you were speaking when we break out groups in an on-site event it is so quick that someone says oh I just quickly grab a coffee or while we are forming a group I I just go to the loo right so these are the distractions on site or oh let me quickly get my phone out and then suddenly nothing happens.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:57.200
And as a facilitator or host of a large event you can stand there and sing and ask them and beg them and nothing happens, right?
00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:57.599
Yeah.
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:10.720
Whereas with the Zoom superpowers it's a click away and I've never heard of some well it might happen from time to time that someone says oh let me quickly grab a coffee or do something.
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:19.359
But in general they're very respectful of I would agree the others who are actually sitting there and waiting for them.
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:39.039
Yeah and you can even make sure that they are by you know adding a 10 minute break every 45 minutes or hour where you tell them okay go do this now and then you can just go through you know three 15 minute breakout rooms and like you said like people are very very respectful and for the most part in those situations.
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:51.759
Yeah it's tough you know in in person you can have like if it's not coffee or this or that it's it's simply three people from a group of 10 that have started a conversation that they think is fascinating and you just can't get them out of that conversation.
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:57.839
They keep on walking together to one another area of the room and they're talking talk and they just don't listen.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:03.680
Whereas breakout rooms it's like you're back into the main lobby of Zoom and I've muted all of you.
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:05.440
Listen to me.
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:07.119
Listen to me now.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:07.839
Yeah.
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:16.720
I keep on experimenting with that and I I'm still unsure of the perfect way to get people back from the breakout groups.
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:20.240
Because as you say they get into such deep conversation so quickly.
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:25.680
And then it almost feels rude to tell them okay 30 seconds now you come back.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:40.079
So I've heard or I experienced from one facilitator it was yeah it was Patrick Carmen and he said you know what please come back when the time is up but the room will remain open.
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:45.440
So that's an invitation to come back without forcing them to do so.
00:26:45.920 --> 00:27:00.000
And on the one hand I'm full of awe of this way of facilitation this trust in the group on the other hand I catch myself that if they are then not back within 10 or 15 seconds, I get nervous and I'm like, what shall we do?
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:00.799
Shall we continue?
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:01.920
Shall we wait?
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:06.480
What is your gut feeling or your experience with that?
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:15.839
Yeah I think I do this too and I I it's I think it's common it's either we give too much time or not an enough time and it's mostly not enough time in breakout rooms.
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:34.640
This is where it's hard as a facilitator I feel to know how much conversation is taking place and are people okay you know but maybe it's like a a lack of confidence that we currently have with the technology to or and and the individuals who are participating to be able to you know fill space with discussions and questions with to each other.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:55.759
I think it goes back again to setting the stage using if I'm thinking about the systems and structures quadrant right like I've told everybody there are going to be 10 minute breakout rooms this is what you need to achieve this is a question like clarity, purpose and when you want to get into it out of it needs to be clear before they get in.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:03.759
And you know there's uh certain situations where we think we get caught up in the process of of having things happen and we forget little things.
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:14.480
So for example we are doing a workshop during design year 2021 during that week where we sent people in a breakout room and they had very clear um things that they needed to ask of each other.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:31.920
And because we were doing these short sessions they were over lunch in terms of certain facilitators being available at that time the facilitator hadn't planned like an extra two or three minutes just for everyone to go around and say what their name was, who they were, where they were located to the other participants.
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.160
And that was very jarring, right?
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:45.200
And so you you have to give space for what needs to happen in order for you to be able to realistically expect them to come out when you want them to come out.
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:52.160
And and the one thing I see consistently is um lack of clarity in when you're going into the group.
00:28:52.400 --> 00:29:01.039
Yeah and then and and why how much problems that causes with like oh we only really got to talking like midway through.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:32.480
It's like well so too because and it refers to the slowing down to speed up thought that if you allow participants to just introduce themselves even if it's just their name and the location where they're calling from then it puts them into ease to then also work on the task whatever it is to do in the breakout group but if you throw them in answer this question it's like them running into a wall like what are we supposed to do?
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.119
And it feels awkward immediately.
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:43.279
Yeah I work with an organization called Cave Day and they do these focus work sessions called sprints.
00:29:43.440 --> 00:30:00.640
You can do an hour sprint or three hour sprints and essentially there's a cave guide who's a facilitator which is what I do and you welcome the people into this room and it's about monotasking and focusing on important work and sort of generating a sense of flow.
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:18.559
So I welcome people into the group I'll usually like start off a breakout session just to get things warmed up, the transition from one space to the next for example and then I'll say okay you're starting your sprints and there's you know dozens to literally hundreds of people on a Zoom call who just put their head down or on mute and start working.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.799
And you almost feel it's part of like an office space where you look up and it's a bunch of people with their heads down.
00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:33.039
Some turn off their screens of course and they're just working and then they know it's going to be between 43 to about 52 minutes of time but they don't know exactly how long.
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:39.119
And then I'll ring a bell at a certain point and I'll give them a moment, they'll stop working and they'll come out of it.
00:30:39.359 --> 00:31:02.000
But what I learned from Cave Day, which was really useful is when you set out the breakout rooms at the beginning because you have such so little time really, because you really want it to be focused on the monotasking that sprint of you know work and flow is that if I'm going to ask something of the people, I'm gonna say I'm gonna answer the question before I send them in.
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:15.680
So in the simplest you know form it's gonna be okay first of all the person with the first letter of the alphabet in the group is going to start and you're gonna say your name you're gonna say where you're located and you're gonna say what you're working on.
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.400
And then I'm gonna say so my name is Gabe.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:33.279
I'm in Toronto and today I'm gonna work on so and so and then people here are you they go into the group you have the person that's about to start you've they've heard it so they can mirror what they've just heard and it makes it way more efficient.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:50.240
And if you can generate that in more complex ways giving an example whether it's even just like a slide if you don't want to take the time to explain it or if it's told better through a visual for example I think that will make your breakout rooms more successful.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:32:03.839
Totally agree since you are listening to this podcast I was wondering whether you get enough opportunities to exchange practice and experiment with other facilitators.
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:22.559
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00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:57.200
And while you're speaking and also mentioning the process and systems quadrant I was wondering whether there is a limit of how much structure you want or need to provide or whether you can overstructure, over provide the structure so that you actually break the experience.
00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:05.920
And again I think there's a big difference between online and on site we have the impression that online we have to be so much more explicit.
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:18.000
And as you said in a I cannot imagine that in a physical workshop on site you would tell the people who is going to start to speak and give them examples of how to answer a question, right?
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.559
Or would not as necessary.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:24.160
I mean it could help but it's not the quite the same.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:28.640
Why is it that we need to over explain or over structure online?
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:53.359
Because I think people are not as engaged just from a somatic perspective cognitively they are experiencing all that through a screen and the more you can hook them with stuff that becomes translated in their brain as to understood when you throw them into that room they're ready sort of their brain is already you know set to repeat it.
00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:06.559
You're just not connected enough on like your your from the body perspective from these smells from all these things that like bring you into a space on a in person and you know you kind of have to set the stage a bit more.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:20.880
Maybe it's also the missing opportunity to just turn around and ask someone or to oh our group we all are not really sure what we're supposed to do let's listen to the group next to us or raise our hand that we can facilitate.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:41.920
But it's very easy to cheat actually and then break up you don't have time to for this moment of uncertainty basically yeah I find in in in sessions that I attend even when there is a good amount of clarity a lot of people end up in the great breakout room and not know what has been asked.
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:50.239
So you kind of have to repeat and repeat and mirror what you're asking of them you know to really get it.
00:34:50.400 --> 00:35:17.519
Because even if there's one or two people within let's say group of four or five that understand because when not everybody's aligned on what they need to do, those people kind of try to guide the process forward but you also don't want to be that person who's imposing yourself and your perspective on that small group right there's like a comfort level that is you know where where the alignment of everybody there needs to be established for everybody to just go right into it.
00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:17.920
Yeah.
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:18.320
Right.
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:27.679
And when there's one person it's kind of like I know that we should be doing this but you don't want to be that person who's like telling everyone okay this is the plan here I am I know things.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:32.079
So you're kind of trying to do it politely and sometimes it works, sometimes not so much.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:36.719
From your perspective what makes a an event or workshop fail?
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:49.920
I mean there's so many factors if you can't generate the right energy is the level of engagement from people.
00:35:50.159 --> 00:36:10.960
If you could be a third person observer and see how people are willing to follow the host, the facilitator, the lead, if there's a stance that is defensive or cynical in a few of the participants, it can really affect the room and I say that both virtually and in person.
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:35.840
And so the facilitator when it comes to workshops failing or being successful instead is they need to bring a certain level of comfort of playfulness and of confidence not in them having the answers because the facilitator's role is not in having answers but in them setting the stage for something worthwhile to happen.
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:49.679
And for the people in that room to say yes okay I'm willing to put my cynicism aside and give this a try and the workshops that you see that really work, that's clear it's worked.
00:36:49.840 --> 00:37:10.239
You know, that facilitators grab the attention of people and they're willing to jump into something that they did not anticipate doing and for me you know it's it's the hardest thing to do in many ways but getting the energy aligned with everyone so that people are willing to buy in to it.
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:12.880
You really have to get by like people to buy in.
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:14.639
So how would you do that?
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:26.559
Do you have a silver bullet exercise for no I don't I think uh I think I I try to design it in such a way that I'm satisfying the needs of everybody.
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:34.639
Honestly I think it's a bit of a cheat but I think certain personalities in facilitators are just better at achieving it than others.
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:35.199
Right?
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:42.239
There are some who are too rigid some who are not rigid enough and so for certain audiences won't be able to get them in.
00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:49.119
So I think there's a also a parallel between the facilitator and who the audience is sometimes the facilitator is just not the right facilitator for that audience.
00:37:49.280 --> 00:38:00.719
Like we I talk about this or I don't but you know in coaching you talk about this it's like you might coach someone for five six months and a certain point it just might not work.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:04.000
And the idea at that point is not to continue and try new things.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.880
It's to say we were not right for each other.
00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:10.800
Find someone else and it's not because my practices are bad.
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:22.960
It's not because my recommendations are poor or that you're a bad you know person a coachy it's that maybe we just didn't like connect like we didn't click.
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:29.199
In terms of exercises I guess it kind of where it depends on where you orient from but I like to have clarity.
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:42.639
So like I said I try to sort of check off that list of saying welcome everyone this is why we're here this is what the workshop or event is going to look like and I try to be pretty orderly about presenting it so that everybody's like okay I didn't know what to expect.
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:47.599
We're gonna be doing these following actions and we're gonna start off with this activity.
00:38:47.840 --> 00:39:03.440
And because I have a bit of a purpose led orientation I also think that purpose needs to come before everything else typically when you do walk into strategic thinking or looking for a sense of self-awareness or you know whatever it is purpose typically is at the core of everything.
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:04.960
That's where you find alignment.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:33.119
There's two things that I like one time I went to a workshop on for entrepreneurs and about how to start your artistic business and I had this project and I wanted to attend and the facilitator the person who's leading this workshop had us group into two people into groups of twos into pairs and he said I'm gonna ask you some questions and you're gonna answer one at a time and so he said he started off okay so why are you here?
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:42.000
And one answered and the other person answered and then he said I'm gonna ask you 10 10 questions and then he answered he asked the second question why are you here?
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:46.079
You have to come up with something and then he asked the third question why are you here?
00:39:46.320 --> 00:40:23.119
Of course right and so by the end of it you're like well because I'm not happy with work I feel like I'm insecure about my ability to do things my partner thinks I'm a bit of a failure you know you get to this place where you're talking about things that you did not intend to share and that are very revealing you know or because someone asked me to be here and and when those things start coming out people start seeing you as way more human right and you see yourself and what the motivations are in a much more explicit you know open manner.
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:33.199
And I think that that relieves some of the tension I think that also helps people be set up for successful problem solving.
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:50.960
Like let's say you're facilitating for like a social purpose you're bringing a bunch of stakeholders together around a cause you know and there's a mix of like government officials, philanthropies, local residents, the nonprofit organization, the people you know who want to make this change.
00:40:51.199 --> 00:41:05.440
And if you can get to a point where maybe the like you know local you know that corporation that has a say in what is there is kind of like we're here because it's part of our corporate social responsibility program but we don't care then perfect.
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:06.239
Good.
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:23.440
That's good to know how do we get you out of that mindset you know I don't want the talking points that's not we want we not we need to know the core state of mind that you're in as an organization as an individual to really bring you into the experience.
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:25.519
And if you don't care that's fine.
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:26.960
Let's make you care.
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.360
And how would you guide through that?
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:39.679
Because I think it's a it's a beautiful invitation and it's a scary moment for the facilitator where suddenly you realize okay there are people who don't want to be there.
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:45.199
I think acknowledging that it's okay not wanting to be there definitely helps.
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:47.679
But what would you do afterwards?
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:56.079
Well you know questions are very powerful because then you get the people that you ask questions to to answer for you.
00:41:56.960 --> 00:41:57.360
Right?
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:13.760
So maybe it's about switching to an approach which is about asking what would make it interesting in their mind to want to be here you know to sort of like get them to explain what would need to change for them to want to be here.
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:14.559
Right?
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:16.000
Is it profit?
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:19.199
Is it you know resources?
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:22.800
Is it better relationship with the local community?
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:32.480
You know that I'm talking now for the example I gave but you need to sort of seek out the answers from them and then you weave that back into what you're doing.
00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:49.840
And I think that those things will resonate with everyone even those who do want to be there to say yeah I can understand I relate to that there are times when I'm asked to be places I don't want to be and if this would be what you would make you want to be here then yeah let me contribute that.
00:42:49.920 --> 00:43:38.400
It's the same kind of effect of being on the on the on the same footing of knowing where someone is coming from when you you asked that question you know earlier I gave the example of the zero to 10 how are you feeling you know I'm I'm a one I haven't had my coffee this morning uh I slept badly I have a newborn I had an argument with my partner I'm lonely it's COVID I hate this you know well okay you're not going to be in the right state of mind but hopefully I can get you to a three a four a five you know or a nine or a 10 later during the day but people will be I you know can relate to that and they can say okay I'm willing to work with you where you are yeah and I think there's this moment where once giving them the opportunity to vent and just speak it out and to list all the things why they're not why they're just a one.
00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:45.599
And then maybe even having others to relate to that oh actually yeah I feel the same.
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:47.760
And then suddenly they're not lonely anymore.
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:50.000
They're not they're not awkward that they're one.
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:59.440
No they're the group of ones and this already lifts everyone to a three right yeah and actually in the why you are here exercise
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.960
You will often see that people will be like, oh yeah, I'm also here because of that.
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:08.480
Like, I also am insecure.
00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:09.119
Right.
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:10.079
I mean, think about it.
00:44:10.159 --> 00:44:12.239
Here I am trying to start my business.
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:24.159
But the reason I'm not starting the business is I'm not confident in myself and I'm seeking out, you know, mentorship and every possible kind of advice I can find before starting because I'm too scared to put my toe in the water.
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:37.519
And so that process of going back and forth with someone else about that, you start revealing layers of why you might be here too, you know, and find those parallels with that other person.
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:48.480
Or you can actually do that exercise in a very small group if you wanted to, you know, if you were a small team, you know, maybe six people and go around the room, go around the room and try not have anybody say the same reason.
00:44:48.719 --> 00:44:49.280
Oh, wow.
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:53.599
Like once you say, okay, I'm here because I've got this great idea, I want to do something.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:56.320
Okay, you're that that answer is scratched off.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.280
No one else is allowed to answer that question anymore in that way.
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:02.320
Like, how many reasons could we come up with for being here?
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:03.440
I love that.
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:08.800
And if the group is not energized and excited about being there after that.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:14.960
After all these reasons, you still don't want to be here.
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:16.719
Maybe you better go.
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:17.519
Yeah.
00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:19.119
And that yeah, no, exactly.
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:21.039
It's like, well, we have two choices now.
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:29.280
Either we come up with a reason to be here that is fun and we experiment, or you get, you know, go off, have a nice day.
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:32.639
I'm giving you back your hour, I'm giving you back your afternoon.
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:47.199
And it sounds, and maybe this opens too much of a potent door box and we have to delay to another conversation, but it seems as if you're applying many of your coaching tools to facilitation.
00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:48.800
Yeah, I yeah, I think so.
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:49.199
Yeah.
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:50.719
I mean, that's where I come from.
00:45:50.880 --> 00:46:03.280
You know, the even the facilitation training that I did, you know, Ellen and everybody she works with are almost all master integral facilitators and master integral coaches as well.
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:14.159
You know, and so they come with a wealth of experience on trying to work with individuals on tackling aspects of themselves that they want to improve.
00:46:14.559 --> 00:46:20.239
So yeah, and so and so I come from it from that perspective.
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:28.400
You know, I I um I'm not someone who's like meeting with like executive boards and trying to like get companies to do stuff yet.
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:29.679
That's not what I do, you know.
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:34.719
I come from I would like to do more of this and like I'd like to help people do more of this.
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:38.480
You know, that's why I did the like film uh race and the podcast making race.
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:53.760
I was like, I don't do it, and I know others feel the same, but if I provide them with a weekend with a context to help them just produce a short five-minute little audio thing that they're proud of, maybe then the following week they'll go start their podcast project that they've been thinking about for months.
00:46:54.159 --> 00:47:07.039
Ian, what I would be interested in is to what extent the toolbox of approach, to what extent do you have to change that when you no longer work with an individual, but suddenly with a group?
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:09.920
Or is it basically something that you can scale?
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:16.639
It's a mindset and a way of questioning that applies as well to a group than to the individual.
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:22.480
I think it applies to the group, but uh you know the thing is like groups are made up of individuals.
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:30.960
And like I said, like it only takes one or two people within a group who are cynical to sort of squash that energy.
00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:31.519
Right?
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:43.760
So you have to be able to address their needs and jump on what you're reading in them to bring them into your space that you're trying to generate.
00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:44.400
Right.
00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:54.320
So, yes, you know, my coaching for me in the way that I've learned and grown as an individual to work with others plays a huge role.
00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:04.239
So it basically gives you the ability to manage group dynamics by understanding the individuals better.
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:07.360
I try to make it as human as possible.
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:24.800
You know, we talked before this call about what we could talk about, and I wasn't quite sure, you know, because I don't know if I see myself as like a facilitator necessarily, as I mentioned at the beginning, but you know, the thing that I was mentioned was like, what is like holistic facilitation?
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:36.880
And it's uh it's starting with empathizing with the person, understanding that they might not want to be there, that they have other things going on, that they need certain things to be feel satisfied, right?
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:46.880
A purpose to take action, a structure, understanding how this fits within something bigger, an opportunity to chat, share a moment.
00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:49.599
You know, you have to give back to them.
00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:59.280
Like in Designer 2021, for that event we organized, one of the sort of things that we said was take some time for yourself and come to this.
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:03.199
And like that was, you know, a tagline, but it was very honest.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:04.000
Right?
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:09.119
Like on our part, we were very much trying to provide something of value to individuals.
00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:09.840
Yeah, right.
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:11.679
This was like a very cheap event.
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:13.199
The money was going to a charity.
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.360
It was like very, very, very, very, very cheap, like pennies essentially.
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:19.679
And so there's very few barriers to entry.
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:28.000
But what we wanted to sort of like really highlight was the time you're gonna spend with these facilitators is about you.
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:33.679
And by taking the time for yourself, you will prepare yourself for your 2021, right?
00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:36.239
It's design your own 2021.
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:37.039
Yeah.
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:38.880
Um, yeah.
00:49:39.039 --> 00:49:41.920
And every instance that you work with people has to be that way.
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:47.280
Every instance that you you have where you're inviting people, it's like take the time for yourself.
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:50.239
And I my job is to make it worthwhile.
00:49:51.039 --> 00:50:06.719
And I wonder whether it's when we facilitate groups or help teams, very often I think if you would ask sufficiently often why they're having this workshop, is actually also to have this time.
00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:13.119
Time as a team, as a group to to think about themselves and how they work together.
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:20.159
Um that they usually don't take because they are busy in meetings, talking about stuff instead of purpose.
00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:39.519
Yeah, listen, I think the reason there are these massive companies like Deloitte and McKinsey's who are just consulting, making billions of dollars, is because people don't take the time to just think about it and they need an outside force, a presence of some kind to do it for them.
00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:51.599
Where I think, and of course I speak as a facilitator who'd like to be hired at some point to do this kind of stuff, but all the answers are internal to that company, to those teams, right?
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:58.719
It's just they can't, we have such a relationship to work that doesn't allow for a lot of reflection and stepping back.
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:07.760
And it's true that you know, facilitation is about management, it's about leadership, it's about space, it's about reflection, you know.
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:09.039
So that's what's happening.
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:16.159
Like you said, like a workshop, like why they want to be there, it's because yeah, they they need a break from themselves and from their work.
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:17.920
And sometimes it's scary.
00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:21.440
So it's safer to spend time being busy in a meeting.
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:25.119
As we're approaching to the hour.
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:30.559
I am very curious to hear your hashtag, if you had one.
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:32.480
Yeah.
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:38.239
You know, these days, I think sometimes my hashtag is closer to scattered.
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:40.079
Hashtag scattered.
00:51:40.320 --> 00:51:45.599
Uh I uh I'm always picking up different pieces of information here and there.
00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:59.760
And and thankfully, I'm a good abstract thinker and I use associative thinking to like my advantage so that I can piece things together with different you know pieces of the puzzle that come from different inspirations, but maybe that's not quite so fair to me.
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:05.599
I think I'm I'm a bit more uh in a place that's not as scattered as I've been in the past.
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:11.519
I would love my you know hashtag to be something like immersed or uh in flow, you know.
00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:14.000
I love the idea of flow, grounded.
00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:27.039
Sometimes I feel like I'm sort of uh like the you know a leaf being blown around because there's so much going on and like feeling grounded these days is uh is a big challenge that a lot of us are facing.
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:28.159
Thank you.
00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:44.639
If someone for an ununderstand for a reason of distraction fell asleep or maybe got totally distracted, just realized, oh my goodness, the podcast is almost over, but I don't have time to listen to the entire show again.
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:47.519
What would you like them to walk away with?
00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:48.960
Two things.
00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:55.440
One, you're working with humans, and humans have more, like a lot of needs, right?
00:52:55.679 --> 00:53:03.119
And another little tool that I find fun is it's it's called POP, and it stands for purpose, outcome, process, and it's an order.
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:12.639
You start with understanding the purpose of what you're doing, then you set some outcomes or objectives, I guess you can use the same acronym, and then you finish with process.
00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:19.360
And so much facilitation is starts with process and ends with process and doesn't ever really, you know.
00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:28.320
And whether it's you as a facilitator setting those outcomes, not for the client, but you need to have your own outcomes.
00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:42.320
And those outcomes to me are making people feel like they've spent their time well, they've accomplished something, and that they were engaged, you know, and it's like that's the holistic side of facilitation.
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:57.039
It's how do I get every different type of orientation, of person, of culture to feel part of that experience and to feel that it was valuable and get them to accomplish what they want to accomplish.
00:53:57.440 --> 00:53:58.079
Wonderful.
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:01.679
Thank you so much for your time and for sharing, Gabe.
00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:02.400
Thank you.
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:03.599
It was a real pleasure.
00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:05.119
This is a great conversation.
00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:06.320
Thank you.
00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:10.079
Thank you for staying tuned and listening to the show.
00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:13.280
I appreciate your attention as I know how busy you are.
00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:21.440
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00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:26.239
I'm looking forward to seeing you back at the next episode, and I wish you a fruitful day.