Ep.40 When Do You Know It's Time To Walk Away? Taking Career Risks With Iconic TV Presenter Jake Humphrey

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ACAST recommends.
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Hi.
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I'm Ryan Tuberty.
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lives and the stories behind them. We talk about the
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book they loved as a child, the book that brings
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them joy, and the book that changed their life. Over
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the seasons, I've chatted to world leaders, cultural icons, sports stars,
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and some of my favorite authors. Well, season five is
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now available. So if you love books, if you love stories,
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and you love great conversations, Come and join me on
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the bookshelf every Tuesday. Watch on YouTube or indeed listen
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wherever you get your podcasts.
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Acast is home to the world's best podcasts, including Red Room,
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Catch Up with Louise McSharry, and the one you're listening
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to right now.
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The person that I met with said, BBC Sport doesn't
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employ people like you. The 2012 Formula One season has
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come and gone. I did feel underappreciated and underloved, and
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I felt like the only way to do that was
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to walk away and show someone else what I could
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do and deliver my talents. Welcome to our new home.
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Welcome to BT Sport. And it would have been the
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easiest thing in the world to stay at the B
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for another four years, but I thought, you know what,
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I'm not going to sit in the comfort chair. I'm
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going to take a risk. You're going to be on
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the earth for 70 years, right? You don't need to
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achieve everything in the first 21. The phone rang and
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it was a guy from the BBC and he said,
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I saw some of your TV show that you were
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working on this weekend. You're a shining star in a
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sea of shit. Everywhere you look, you're showing perfection. What
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I want people to understand is that that perfection didn't
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come for free.
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What is up guys and welcome back to Working Hard
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Hardly Working. Today's episode is inspiring so I hope you're
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ready to be inspired. I was just sitting there like
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nodding like a little um nodding dog thing you know
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those yeah sure anyway. Honestly I just felt like it
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was one of those episodes that I'm going to go
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back and listen to when I just really need like
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a kick up the arse or like but also like
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a nice kick up the ass. That sounds horrible and
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also quite dodgy, but like motivation in a nice friendly way.
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I don't know.
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I just thought that this was some of the best
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advice I'd kind of listened to and was just such
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a good conversation on the idea of success versus failure
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and our paths and careers and the speed we should
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be going at sprints versus, you know, a nice little jog.
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So I hope you really enjoyed this episode. I think
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it's a really good one. Personally, I would say that,
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you know, it's my podcast. As always, please rate the
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podcast if you do enjoy it. Please share it with
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your friends if you do enjoy it. And if not,
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just don't let me know because it will hurt me.
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I hope you really enjoy this episode. And as always,
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have a lovely day. Thanks so much for joining me.
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To set the scene, would you be able to give
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a little whistle-stop tour on the background of who you
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are and kind of how you got to where you
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are now? But we can drag that bit out a
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little bit longer.
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Yes.
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Okay. It's always hard to know how you got there, right?
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That's one of the challenging things. I think a lot
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of people will see the amazing stuff that you put
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out on Instagram and the incredible story of your businesses
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and what they will, I think, maybe come to this
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podcast for or other podcasts like it is to connect
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the dots in advance. One of the hardest things I
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think is that you're not able to do that.
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Yeah, sure.
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And it's only now when I think of, oh, that
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was a really key moment in my career or that
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was a moment that really had a long lasting impact.
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The truth is at the time, I had no idea.
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So the learning from that is just be you and
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give 100% to everything because you don't know when that
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moment's going to come. So what were the sort of
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moments for me? Again, they were totally disguised. I always
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try and say this in a way that it comes
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across right, but I sometimes think that it feels a
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bit stupid to say I was the most normal person
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you could ever imagine.
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Mm-hmm.
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Because it sounds a bit too self-deprecating although I'm trying
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to make a point, but what I'm trying to say
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is I grew up thinking you had successful people. 30
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years ago, I'd see your Instagram and go, wow, she's
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naturally successful, I'm naturally not. I just thought there was
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a secret to high performance that I wasn't exposed to
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or I wasn't born into wealth or anything. So I
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came from a small village in Norfolk. Dad was a
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charity worker. Mum was a teacher. House absolutely full of love.
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Probably not a house full of like, die-hard ambition you
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know they was like go to school get a degree
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if you can go to university and get a job
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that was the kind of plan really heavy work ethic
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I had a paper round really early I carried on
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doing it till I was about 16 my mum and
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dad were always palming me off to neighbors houses to
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mow their lawn do their gardening for like two pounds
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an hour or whatever the big moment really was I
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was like super normal didn't do any acting didn't do
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any stuff at school wasn't any sports teams failed my A-levels.
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That was like a really big key moment for me.
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And that was around a time of like deep and
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intense failure or struggle or negative things happening. So I
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worked at McDonald's and I got fired. And I know
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now like we can laugh and think fired from McDonald's,
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how ridiculous. But when you're 17 and all your mates
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work there and they come in because you can like
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chat to them while they're buying their food and then
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you have to tell them you've been sacked. So that
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is deeply embarrassing. Even to go home to your parents
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at that age and go, I've been fired from a
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fast food restaurant. Particularly when None of us thought like
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that Jake had any sort of special talents or it
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wasn't like, well, don't worry because you're great at this.
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I didn't really have anything. So I got fired from that.
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I lost my grandma around that time. She committed suicide,
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which again is a really difficult thing to cope with
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mentally when you're doing your A-levels and you're a teenager
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because your grandparents, you feel like they've got it sorted.
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Like, I mean, I've never experienced that, so I can't.
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I can't imagine how tough that would have been. But
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I can also imagine conceptually you have this such like
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naive approach to life when you're a teenager. Like it's
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so sweet and naive in the way that you're like,
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kind of, of course you'd want to live. And like
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that kind of whole approach to thinking about something. So
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I can imagine that just being turned on its head
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in that moment. Like that's a lot. alongside grief, conceptually,
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for a teenager to be able to deal with the
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difference between someone wanting to live and someone deciding that
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that wasn't what they wanted to do. I can imagine
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that just rocking your entire world, grief aside.
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You're totally right. Because I think, like, I'd already lost
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grandparents before then. There's something very different, though, to your
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mum sitting down. And I remember her telling me when, like,
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when my grandpa died, for example, he was ill and
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he was in his 80s. And I remember them just
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sitting down and going, listen, we've got some news. Grandpa's
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died in the night. And you kind of go... amazing
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guy amazing life sad but this is you know you're
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told that that's the circle of life right when you've
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got a healthy fun amazing dynamic brilliant grandma who seems
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okay then it is very difficult thing to deal with
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and actually i remember it specifically difficult because about three
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or four days before i was doing my a level
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um revision and she came around And I remember her
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walking past my bedroom where I was doing my revision
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and she just, she did look really sad. I said,
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are you okay? She goes, oh, I don't know. I
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don't think I can carry on. And he's just really sad.
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And I remember going, oh, you'll be fine, grandma. Carrying
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on with my revision. And I'm not saying it would
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have made the difference if I'd have stopped and gone, whoa,
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hold on a minute. But you kind of wish you had.
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And you do carry that. So that was a moment of,
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for sure, where I learned a lot about the world.
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And then it wasn't long after that I failed my A-levels.
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So again, I had to learn, not through any desire
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or design, I had to learn to dust myself off.
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So then really quickly went back to school. The day
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I went back to school, there was a letter from
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a local TV channel looking for politics students to go
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and work on a TV show just to offer their
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opinions at the weekend. I went there, explained that I'd
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failed my A-levels, that I was around and I was available,
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worked basically for free, ended up doing bits of presenting.
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ended up being offered a job.
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Was that something that had you previously been in?
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No, because that's ambition. And I didn't have any of that.
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And I think it's just because I was a really
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late developer. Like I was physically a late developer, mentally
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a late developer. I was just like the kind of
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class clown, the kind of average kid at school that
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just made people laugh. Not very popular and you know,
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nothing special. So I certainly wouldn't have said I'm going
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to be a TV presenter. Also like Grace, I'm from
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a small village in Norfolk. Like, People like me just
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don't be TV presenters. That's how it felt at the time.
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But then I got offered a job, £ 6, 472 a year,
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if I remember correctly, was my starting salary. And then
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one day I was at work and the phone rang
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and it was a guy from the BBC and he said,
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is that Jake Humphrey? I said, yeah. And he said,
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I saw some of your TV show that you were
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working on this weekend. You're a shining star in a
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sea of shit. Which I kind of thought... What a review.
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Yeah. Yeah, go on.
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As long as I was the shining star, not the
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sea of shit, then I'm happy. And he invited me
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down to London and I had a few meetings. They
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then launched the CBBC channel. I started on that as
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a CBBC presenter. Like, couldn't believe it had this actually happened.
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I was a kids TV presenter. Amazing time there. The
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BBC then won the rights to Formula One, paid millions
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of pounds for them. And there was this feeling that
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they had to try and make their sports coverage a
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bit younger, a bit fresher.
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Yeah.
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I took that job. I got offered that job, accepted.
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It, obviously.
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Incredible.
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Sorry, how old were you at this stage?
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By now, so I was like the A-level failure, two
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or three years in telly. So I was then in
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my early 20s. I was eight years at CBBC. So
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now I'm like 29, probably. So it was quite young
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to get that Formula One job.
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Yeah, no, that's incredible.
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I did that for four years. And then we can
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talk about this in more detail, but walked away from
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the B, joined BT Sport. And then... I'm now sitting
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here with you. In the meantime, I started a production
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company called The Whisper Group, which has now got about
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300 staff. It's pretty successful, based in West London. I've
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got a podcast called High Performance, a couple of kids,
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an amazing wife. I live back in Norfolk where it
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all started. Sometimes it's really nice just to stop and
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look back on all that because you just don't do that,
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you know?
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I think one of the, as you were kind of
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saying earlier, one of the reasons we listen to podcasts
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is because we try and learn from people's mistakes or
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failures before we've made them ourselves and obviously there's only
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an element of that that you can do like you're
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going to make the mistakes you're going to make but
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it feels like your story is so one of those
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that like of course there's serendipity in there but it's
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also like it feels like it had to happen that
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way like it almost feels like you and I would
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like in terms of like the you know being fired
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from McDonald's or like the A-levels or any of those
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things it's like in order to grow your sense of
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self to be at the point that you would be
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you know, just applying for that presenter role rather than
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from a point of ambition, actually from a point of
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kind of, well, what else am I going to do?
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This has just come through my door. I think is
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so important to look at because we kind of lots
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of the time see things always having to have risen
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from ambition at that stage and actually like trusting the
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process and trusting the like direction of your life in
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terms of like what way you're going to go. I
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do think it's incredibly important.
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And I think it's hard at the moment to trust
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the direction because like, I'm a lot older than you.
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I'm in my forties, right? So when I was growing up,
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thankfully there was no social media. There was no showing off.
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There was no way of knowing what everyone else was
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doing because all it would have done is make me
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feel even worse and even more inferior. And that's the
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real challenge I think for people now is that everywhere
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you look, you're shown perfection. Now, what I want people
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to understand is that that perfection didn't come for free, right?
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You and your businesses haven't come for free. What I've
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done hasn't come for free and I think now we
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live in a world where people I get people not
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saying to me how should I start out in television
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they say how can I get a job presenting the
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Champions League or how can I be a Formula One
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presenter or how can I present match of the day
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and it's like well you have to do the work
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and actually the truth is a lot of the work
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is in just the being in the doing the failing
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the trying again and I know that there's a slight
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element of well you've been through it and you've failed
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and you've learned all these things. Why don't you just
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tell me?
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Yeah.
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That's kind of not enough.
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Yeah.
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No, but also you, like the actual experience in order
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to make you the person you were when you took
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that Formula One job, if that opportunity had been there
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nine years earlier or eight years earlier or whenever it
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is that you kind of got your first proper presenting job,
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you wouldn't have been in the right place to take it.
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Like you wouldn't have been experienced enough.
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All my mistakes came on this tiny channel. It's called
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Rapture Television.
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Mm.
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All my mistakes came there and then they came on
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Children's BBC. So I talk about it as being like
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a pilot getting your wings. What people need to do
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is realise you need to get your wings for life.
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You need to do all of that stuff, which can
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be sometimes frustrating. I remember when I really wanted to
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be a sports presenter. I'd been maybe five years on
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Children's BBC. I wanted to be a sports presenter. I
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went for a meeting and explained this to them. And
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I thought it would be funny to say I failed
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my A-levels and I got fired from McDonald's. And the
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person that I met with, they were responsible for finding
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new presenters for BBC Sport. And they said, BBC Sport
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doesn't employ people like you. In other words, you haven't
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got a degree. You haven't, you're not a trained journalist.
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You haven't played football or rugby or cricket to an
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elite level. You're not what we're looking for. And I
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think that that was actually a really brilliant message for
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me because it meant that I had to find another way. Now,
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if that had happened to me, and I hadn't done
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the years on Children's BBC, and I hadn't had the
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A-level failure, and I hadn't had those setbacks from McDonald's
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and having to deal with grief in the way that
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I had, I think that that would have just derailed me.
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But instead, it just energized me. And I thought, fine,
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I will absolutely show you what I should be doing.
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And I actually ended up getting an ISDN kit, which
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is the old way of sort of broadcasting from matches.
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And I used to earn like £ 100 on a Saturday
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to go and report for the radio, for BBC Radio.
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And I was on CBBC at the time where I
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thought my career had taken me to a certain point.
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And it was going right back to the beginning and saying, fine,
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let me show you. So I think that's the other
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important takeaway is that like the work doesn't stop. You know,
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you have had an amazing career, right? The truth is,
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if you wanted to go and totally pivot in another direction,
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you'd have to be humble enough to go, well, let
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me start at the beginning.
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A hundred percent.
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Show you where it works.
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Yeah.
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And I think one of the important messages there as
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well is like, I do think social media has positioned
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us in a way where we want so much instant gratification.
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And I'll be the first person to say that because
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I think you can see by the speed of my career,
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I'm very much a, I want something and I want
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it now. I don't say that in a derogatory sense.
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I'm very determined and I'll make something happen and I'm
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very spurred. I'm quite impulsive in the way that like,
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I'll decide to do something and then spend three days
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making it happen or, you know, like back to back
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and through the night and all of this. But I
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also think that like, what's really important when you look
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at that is it's like, sure you can do that,
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but like, remember careers are long and you're also by
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wanting some things like the chapter 20 now, rather than
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the chapter one, you're probably not giving yourself like a
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great backing to be able to get there. Like if
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I went back and did it again, I would 100%
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get more formal experience in what I then wanted to do.
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But at the time, I wanted to make a lot
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of money, I wanted to do well, I wanted to
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grow on social media, and so what I did was
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do anything to make that happen. But actually, realistically, I
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think if I'd been able to be a little more,
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a little slower, a little less impulsive, and a little
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more about building the foundations... I would have felt a
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lot more confident to be able to grow in the
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direction I needed to grow in. Like I think I
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00:17:12.849 --> 00:17:15.390
could have learned so much from working in private equity
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or from working in a startup or from, you know,
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going to the production side of fashion or whatever it
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might be. And I do think that there's this like,
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because we want this instant gratification, it's often against our
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best interests. And of course I can say that now
395
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because I'm sitting in the position I'm in.
396
00:17:31.819 --> 00:17:32.619
But it's worked out well for you though.
397
00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:35.220
Yeah, of course it has. But I also think that like,
398
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There are also times now where I'm kind of very
399
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much like, I rushed into the, like, you know, not
400
00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:44.230
everything at all. Like I love the position I'm in.
401
00:17:44.289 --> 00:17:47.049
I think I'm in a very powerful position with like Tala,
402
00:17:47.069 --> 00:17:49.130
for example, in the way that I'm their target customer.
403
00:17:49.150 --> 00:17:50.750
So yeah, sure. I am probably the best person to
404
00:17:50.789 --> 00:17:52.490
be sitting in that room and being like, no, we
405
00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:54.910
want that on the leggings. But ultimately when it comes
406
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to some of the other things, I think I rushed
407
00:17:57.140 --> 00:17:59.980
it a lot because I wanted it to look like
408
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.660
the finished product before it was there. This kind of
409
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.299
fake it till you make it thing. And only now
410
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:06.960
I'm able to kind of like sit here and say
411
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those things because it worked out. Whereas like I could
412
00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:11.869
have been sitting here and saying those things were like
413
00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:14.930
something had gone bankrupt or like the idea hadn't worked
414
00:18:15.009 --> 00:18:16.829
or I didn't what I was terrible at running a
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company and terrible at managing people or whatever it might
416
00:18:19.130 --> 00:18:23.650
have been. But I think that kind of like the mistakes,
417
00:18:23.710 --> 00:18:26.180
the failures, but also just the experience as a whole
418
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is like so important to have in your like toolbox
419
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of like things that you could use to then confront
420
00:18:33.339 --> 00:18:35.740
the issues that you come and you know and I
421
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would say mine in particular having had like a I'd
422
00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:41.819
say eight year career now would be like the grand
423
00:18:41.859 --> 00:18:45.569
total of it is like almost every problem I come
424
00:18:45.609 --> 00:18:48.890
across is like a very new problem that I haven't
425
00:18:48.910 --> 00:18:51.730
had lower risk experience of if that makes sense.
426
00:18:51.609 --> 00:18:55.430
But you're also a great advocate for the fact there's
427
00:18:55.470 --> 00:18:57.930
more than one way to do something I mean I
428
00:18:58.970 --> 00:19:03.539
I would say that I've had a great career but
429
00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.470
quite a slow career So I got into telly at 18.
430
00:19:06.450 --> 00:19:08.269
I'm still in telly at 44 and I've still got
431
00:19:08.309 --> 00:19:11.710
loads of things I want to do. The production company, Whisper,
432
00:19:11.769 --> 00:19:15.589
that I've got has grown organically. We've never taken any funding.
433
00:19:15.609 --> 00:19:18.769
We've never had any debt. I'm really proud with where
434
00:19:18.829 --> 00:19:21.029
it is. I love the fact that it just grew
435
00:19:21.130 --> 00:19:23.789
slowly and it kind of grew organically. There was no
436
00:19:23.829 --> 00:19:28.650
grand plan. And I love that. Even my podcast, you know,
437
00:19:29.069 --> 00:19:30.890
for the first year, it was just a kind of
438
00:19:30.910 --> 00:19:33.190
almost like a side hobby and high performance is sort
439
00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:35.519
of slowly growing. become more of that and then I
440
00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:40.329
see like amazing new podcasts now that are doing now
441
00:19:40.589 --> 00:19:43.329
what we've spent three years building up to do but
442
00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:45.109
I'm kind of okay with that because I think that
443
00:19:46.089 --> 00:19:48.430
it's really brilliant for people to see people like me
444
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that actually maybe need to take it slow, but also
445
00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:54.700
see people like you, your calling card, what your USP is,
446
00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:59.450
what your unique ability is, is like your conviction of
447
00:20:00.710 --> 00:20:04.109
your decision-making and your energy. And actually that's brilliant because
448
00:20:04.829 --> 00:20:07.450
we can all be really sure in our decision making
449
00:20:07.490 --> 00:20:09.029
even if we've got loads of doubts under the surface
450
00:20:09.049 --> 00:20:10.769
we can still go i'm going to decide this right
451
00:20:10.930 --> 00:20:13.170
that's the first thing the second thing is as long
452
00:20:13.190 --> 00:20:14.369
as we get enough sleep we should all have the
453
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energy yeah so i think you are massively inspirational for
454
00:20:17.029 --> 00:20:19.450
people in that yeah i could do with the way
455
00:20:19.490 --> 00:20:21.210
that jake's done it and kind of try and find
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00:20:21.250 --> 00:20:23.109
my path and try and work it out as i
457
00:20:23.150 --> 00:20:26.630
go or i could just literally be grace and go
458
00:20:27.150 --> 00:20:29.470
this is what i'm going to do because actually i
459
00:20:30.589 --> 00:20:32.009
know it's easy to go you might not work out
460
00:20:32.049 --> 00:20:35.799
well both way of operating may well not work out.
461
00:20:35.819 --> 00:20:39.000
There is no answer here. It's just kind of don't
462
00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:42.309
overthink it. If you're an energy bunny, be super energetic.
463
00:20:42.849 --> 00:20:44.910
If you're a cautious, careful, slow, I need all the
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answers before I make a potentially dangerous decision, then be that.
465
00:20:48.869 --> 00:20:51.640
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. No, I think that's incredibly important.
466
00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:51.980
Yeah.
467
00:20:52.309 --> 00:20:55.349
Like a really, really important differentiation there. And I think realistically,
468
00:20:55.490 --> 00:20:57.150
I never would have not done it the way I
469
00:20:57.170 --> 00:20:58.450
did it because that's who I am.
470
00:20:58.470 --> 00:20:59.329
And that's how I do things. And I bet you
471
00:20:59.349 --> 00:21:01.349
still do it today, right? You still go hell for
472
00:21:01.369 --> 00:21:02.130
leather all the time, right?
473
00:21:02.210 --> 00:21:04.130
Oh my God. Like, as in like, I know what's
474
00:21:04.150 --> 00:21:05.529
good for me and I know what's bad for me.
475
00:21:05.589 --> 00:21:08.670
And yet you will see me like, like I'll have
476
00:21:08.710 --> 00:21:11.299
an idea at, you know, 3am and I'll make it
477
00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:14.460
happen by the next day. And like all wheels will
478
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.220
be in motion and all of this. And like, it is.
479
00:21:16.220 --> 00:21:18.200
But that's not for everyone. No, of course. And I
480
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:20.259
think the danger is these days, everyone wants to tell
481
00:21:20.299 --> 00:21:23.180
everyone that their way of doing it Is the right way,
482
00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:24.680
that survivorship bias thing.
483
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.259
I think what I don't want to happen is by
484
00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:29.579
me having the platform that I have, that being the
485
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:31.759
only acceptable way to make that happen, which I think
486
00:21:31.819 --> 00:21:34.720
is what I'm trying to say by that differentiation. I
487
00:21:34.779 --> 00:21:36.980
also think that like being careful when you are the
488
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.119
type of person that I am, being careful in the
489
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:43.180
way that time's not going to change based on the
490
00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:45.930
fact that you've got to success quicker. You're still then
491
00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:48.230
going to have that. If you burn yourself out, you're
492
00:21:48.250 --> 00:21:50.049
going to burn yourself out and you're going to take
493
00:21:50.089 --> 00:21:51.930
a long time to be able to get out of
494
00:21:51.970 --> 00:21:55.410
that if ever. And I feel like knowing where your
495
00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:58.250
downfalls in that way are very, very important. Because personally,
496
00:21:58.289 --> 00:22:00.329
I would say that I go far too fast and
497
00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:03.410
I do burn myself out to like, you know, and
498
00:22:03.450 --> 00:22:05.519
it's not, it's not good for me. And I think
499
00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:07.599
that like, that's all well and good. Me saying that
500
00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:10.240
sitting here and being like, you know, whatever position I'm
501
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:11.680
in and then being able to be like, but don't
502
00:22:11.740 --> 00:22:14.519
burn yourself out. Like, you know, of course I can
503
00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:17.480
say that, but I do think it is also important to,
504
00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:21.190
you know, that's, it's not, It's definitely not always a strength.
505
00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:24.569
And I think just seeing the fruits of that success
506
00:22:25.089 --> 00:22:28.369
on social media, on my platforms or whatever, without caveating
507
00:22:28.430 --> 00:22:30.750
it with that and being like, you know, I don't
508
00:22:30.789 --> 00:22:32.529
really have balance. There's like a lot of, you know,
509
00:22:32.589 --> 00:22:33.950
all of those things I think is important.
510
00:22:34.609 --> 00:22:42.109
What the world doesn't need is another dynamic, entrepreneurial, successful, wealthy,
511
00:22:42.539 --> 00:22:46.079
awesome young man or young woman. making everyone else feel
512
00:22:46.099 --> 00:22:48.339
like they're not doing enough. Sure. That's like the worst
513
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.740
conversation that we can have on my podcast, on your podcast,
514
00:22:51.779 --> 00:22:56.269
on any platform. What there isn't enough of is people
515
00:22:56.710 --> 00:23:00.470
in other people's lives saying, just take your time, just
516
00:23:00.529 --> 00:23:02.349
enjoy it. You know, you're going to be on the
517
00:23:02.410 --> 00:23:04.549
earth for 70 years, right? You don't need to achieve
518
00:23:04.569 --> 00:23:07.670
everything in the first 21. That's the risk. That's the danger.
519
00:23:07.809 --> 00:23:09.900
And you know, you're great at being honest and saying, well,
520
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:12.200
it leaves me feeling burnt out. It leaves me feeling
521
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.279
anxious and stressed. I sometimes don't feel I've got the
522
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.200
toolkit because I haven't lived those experiences. It's a very
523
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.150
interesting conversation because I do think we laud the young,
524
00:23:22.430 --> 00:23:23.869
early successful entrepreneur.
525
00:23:23.910 --> 00:23:26.230
Oh my God, 100%. And also like, I think that we,
526
00:23:27.210 --> 00:23:29.809
it's the same with like the kind of girl boss
527
00:23:30.190 --> 00:23:33.230
kind of rhetoric and like all of the, you know,
528
00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:36.289
we love to see success stories that are against the
529
00:23:36.329 --> 00:23:38.750
norm because to us it makes us, you know, we're
530
00:23:38.809 --> 00:23:42.630
able to celebrate it more. So, you know, young successful woman.
531
00:23:42.670 --> 00:23:45.369
So like, like whatever it might be, it's easier to
532
00:23:45.430 --> 00:23:49.750
celebrate that and almost not glorify it too much. Cause
533
00:23:49.769 --> 00:23:51.589
I don't think the concept can be glorified too much,
534
00:23:51.630 --> 00:23:55.490
but in terms of like giving that qualities that it
535
00:23:55.549 --> 00:23:58.470
doesn't actually have in terms or like taking away the
536
00:23:58.509 --> 00:24:01.170
fact that there would be any negatives there just to
537
00:24:01.210 --> 00:24:03.900
celebrate that kind of specific thing, which is why I
538
00:24:03.910 --> 00:24:05.579
think it's important to kind of be able to talk
539
00:24:05.619 --> 00:24:08.349
about the Not so great parts.
540
00:24:08.390 --> 00:24:08.589
Yeah.
541
00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:11.150
Not from a kind of like self-flagellating, like being like, oh,
542
00:24:11.170 --> 00:24:13.230
but you know, life is really hard. It's not like,
543
00:24:13.289 --> 00:24:15.650
it's not that. It's just actually being like, you know,
544
00:24:16.750 --> 00:24:19.150
there's always going to be the flip side. I want
545
00:24:19.170 --> 00:24:22.450
to talk about your starting up of the production company.
546
00:24:22.470 --> 00:24:22.549
Yeah.
547
00:24:22.569 --> 00:24:24.450
Because to get a company to a point where it's
548
00:24:24.509 --> 00:24:29.930
got 300 team members is absolutely unbelievable. When did you
549
00:24:30.390 --> 00:24:33.500
start that and what was the kind of idea for that?
550
00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:35.500
I love talking about this.
551
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:35.880
Mm-hmm.
552
00:24:36.190 --> 00:24:41.740
Because I do believe that entrepreneurial people just, they, the
553
00:24:41.779 --> 00:24:43.240
one thing I will be really clear about is I
554
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:45.779
think that they are risk takers. They are gamblers. They are,
555
00:24:46.539 --> 00:24:50.099
you know, they're constantly buying a lottery ticket. They're constantly
556
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.980
making a bet. Now there's a chance and you would
557
00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:55.539
have been through many bets and chances in your life
558
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:56.279
that haven't paid off.
559
00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:56.559
Right.
560
00:24:57.079 --> 00:24:58.960
It's the one that does pay off. That is the
561
00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.029
one that you, that, everyone at Lawton is excited about.
562
00:25:02.109 --> 00:25:05.250
But you mustn't stop taking these risks just because you've
563
00:25:05.269 --> 00:25:07.970
had a few that don't pay off. So I was
564
00:25:08.009 --> 00:25:12.650
working in Formula One between 2009 and 2012. And the
565
00:25:12.990 --> 00:25:15.730
BBC moved the sports department to Manchester. And I was
566
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.059
working with this amazing guy called Sunil Patel, who is
567
00:25:19.099 --> 00:25:22.140
still the CEO of Whisper today. And he's one of
568
00:25:22.180 --> 00:25:24.720
those rare people where I'd work with great creatives and
569
00:25:24.740 --> 00:25:27.559
I'd work with people who are brilliant organizers. I'd never
570
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:31.180
worked with someone who was hugely creative, massive ideas, but
571
00:25:31.220 --> 00:25:33.680
then got it done, just believed they could get it done.
572
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:36.529
And Sonal was that guy. So he said he didn't
573
00:25:36.549 --> 00:25:39.170
really fancy going to Manchester because BBC Sport was moving
574
00:25:39.210 --> 00:25:41.630
from London to Manchester at the time. And with this
575
00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:43.549
idea of buying a lottery ticket or being a bit
576
00:25:43.569 --> 00:25:45.690
of a gambler, I said, well, let's just set up
577
00:25:45.710 --> 00:25:48.930
a production company. Now, I didn't really have a grand
578
00:25:49.009 --> 00:25:51.809
plan for that. And again, don't think you need to
579
00:25:52.549 --> 00:25:54.170
put all the dots in place before you make that
580
00:25:54.230 --> 00:25:56.839
first decision. Just make the first decision for what it is.
581
00:25:57.500 --> 00:25:59.420
We didn't know we were going to be going 10
582
00:25:59.420 --> 00:26:01.819
years later, turning over... you know, probably close to a
583
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:04.809
hundred million dollars this year. That wasn't the plan. The
584
00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:06.950
plan was just, let's just set up a production company.
585
00:26:07.450 --> 00:26:10.950
So the two of us got together without even the
586
00:26:10.990 --> 00:26:12.750
name of a business. And we were lucky enough that
587
00:26:12.789 --> 00:26:15.650
we knew obviously loads of the teams in Formula One.
588
00:26:15.690 --> 00:26:17.730
So we went to meet with the Williams Formula One
589
00:26:17.750 --> 00:26:19.930
team and we said to them, look, you love the
590
00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:21.950
coverage on the BBC. It was winning lots of awards
591
00:26:21.970 --> 00:26:24.559
at the time. The viewing figures were really high. We said,
592
00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:27.430
Sonal is one of the brains behind the coverage. We
593
00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:29.529
would love to produce your content. And we will basically
594
00:26:29.589 --> 00:26:33.430
produce BBC level quality. We'll do it cheaper than you've
595
00:26:33.450 --> 00:26:36.460
already been paying people anyway. Because there was a lot
596
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:37.859
of people in that space at the time that were
597
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:42.079
just overcharging. They weren't, you know, we didn't think giving
598
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:43.880
fair quotes for the work. So we said, we will
599
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:46.269
just be totally honest. We'll charge you what it costs
600
00:26:46.309 --> 00:26:48.910
plus 10% to cover our overheads. And that's what we'll do.
601
00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:51.450
And Williams took a chance on us. They said, okay,
602
00:26:51.490 --> 00:26:53.829
why don't you produce our content for the season? The
603
00:26:53.849 --> 00:26:56.440
two of us couldn't believe it. remember leaving their factory
604
00:26:56.700 --> 00:26:59.430
we pulled up in a lay-by next to their factory
605
00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:02.210
and got out and started dancing and then we were
606
00:27:02.230 --> 00:27:03.670
like this looks really bad if one of them comes
607
00:27:03.769 --> 00:27:05.650
out of the office and sees us dancing in a
608
00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:08.849
lay-by so then we started driving back and we were
609
00:27:08.869 --> 00:27:10.609
like we don't even have a name for the company
610
00:27:10.630 --> 00:27:13.170
we don't have an office we literally had nothing and
611
00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:15.309
he'd just been on a lad's holiday to a and
612
00:27:15.450 --> 00:27:17.009
been drinking a bar called whisper and he had the
613
00:27:17.069 --> 00:27:18.569
business card in his pocket and he said well let's
614
00:27:18.589 --> 00:27:21.210
just call it whisper and that was it that was
615
00:27:21.230 --> 00:27:21.890
the beginning.
616
00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:24.359
And just for clarification for people who might not have
617
00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:27.930
background on like production companies, for example, was the aim
618
00:27:28.029 --> 00:27:31.890
to create their content for their organic platforms or was
619
00:27:31.950 --> 00:27:33.529
it to be able to create the content to then
620
00:27:33.609 --> 00:27:35.329
sell to say like a channel or something?
621
00:27:35.349 --> 00:27:39.720
So let's remember we're talking about 2010, 2011. So online
622
00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:42.299
social media content was nothing like it is now. Like
623
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:44.240
Twitter was kind of getting going, but it was pretty
624
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:47.440
much just updates. Like even photos were a tricky thing
625
00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:49.799
to put up. So what it was really, it was
626
00:27:50.180 --> 00:27:52.480
to produce content for them on behalf of their sponsors,
627
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:55.059
which could then be given to TV channels, used in
628
00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:00.039
their marketing material, used in their motorhome, just assets basically.
629
00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:04.160
And that's how it all started. My wife worked on
630
00:28:04.180 --> 00:28:06.819
Strictly Come Dancing. She was a production manager. So she
631
00:28:06.859 --> 00:28:09.720
left her job to work on the business. She worked
632
00:28:09.769 --> 00:28:12.430
out of our back office. Sonal worked out of his
633
00:28:12.509 --> 00:28:15.829
study in his house. And it's a big risk for her.
634
00:28:15.849 --> 00:28:16.509
She left her job.
635
00:28:16.529 --> 00:28:18.009
Was she your wife at the time?
636
00:28:18.269 --> 00:28:19.130
She was my wife at the time.
637
00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:23.289
Seems like less of a risk when there's the... Definitely
638
00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:25.029
less of a risk for her. Oh, my boyfriend's starting
639
00:28:25.049 --> 00:28:27.809
this production company and I'm going to quit my job.
640
00:28:27.829 --> 00:28:29.450
It's definitely less of a risk for her.
641
00:28:29.470 --> 00:28:32.269
No, no, no, that wasn't to belittle the fact that
642
00:28:32.289 --> 00:28:33.109
it was obviously.
643
00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:33.579
Still a significant risk.
644
00:28:33.650 --> 00:28:35.160
It was the fact she was walking away from her
645
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.140
dream job which was working on Strictly Come Dancing. And
646
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.119
I'm like, can you walk away from Strictly just to
647
00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:43.180
work on some slightly random Formula One content?
648
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.019
Also for both of your risk as a family or
649
00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:49.809
a unit at that time to be completely undiversified.
650
00:28:48.930 --> 00:28:50.950
Totally totally we were we were all in at that
651
00:28:50.990 --> 00:28:54.490
point into this into this plan and what we actually
652
00:28:54.549 --> 00:28:57.130
found because you I think one of the great things
653
00:28:57.390 --> 00:28:59.440
about you know we've talked about doing things when you're
654
00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:01.059
young one of the great things about naivety and that
655
00:29:01.079 --> 00:29:02.759
would have been one of your superpowers for sure when
656
00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:05.720
you first started out was you just thought every meeting
657
00:29:05.740 --> 00:29:07.420
was going to be amazing every opportunity was going to
658
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:09.940
work it was all going to be fantastic because that's
659
00:29:10.009 --> 00:29:14.009
how wonderful being naive is be naive it's okay don't
660
00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:17.640
fully educate yourself And we were naive, totally naive to
661
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:20.410
think that we would meet one person, get some work
662
00:29:20.450 --> 00:29:23.490
and then others and others. The reality was you win
663
00:29:23.509 --> 00:29:25.609
that first contract, you put all your effort into making
664
00:29:25.630 --> 00:29:28.049
that content. So you haven't got time to find the
665
00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:31.069
next bit of work. So eventually we were like, we
666
00:29:31.130 --> 00:29:37.609
need more help with pitching, meeting people, commercial contacts, all
667
00:29:37.630 --> 00:29:39.529
this sort of stuff. And we worked with David Coulthard,
668
00:29:39.549 --> 00:29:39.970
who was a former.
669
00:29:40.190 --> 00:29:40.650
One driver.
670
00:29:40.890 --> 00:29:43.730
He'd just retired. He was working on the BBC coverage.
671
00:29:43.750 --> 00:29:45.049
And we said to him, would you like to be
672
00:29:45.069 --> 00:29:47.029
part of our company? And he actually said, what would
673
00:29:47.049 --> 00:29:50.039
it cost me? We hadn't even considered, we were so
674
00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:52.440
naive to this whole thing. We hadn't even considered that
675
00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:54.630
he would pay to have some of our business.
676
00:29:54.690 --> 00:29:57.470
We thought we'd have to convince him.
677
00:29:57.509 --> 00:30:00.029
We were like, we'd have to convince him to have
678
00:30:00.069 --> 00:30:02.289
some of our business. So then we were like, well,
679
00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:04.670
how the hell do we decide what it costs? So
680
00:30:04.690 --> 00:30:06.809
Sunil said, well, I needed a new bathroom, which was
681
00:30:06.809 --> 00:30:08.349
15 grand.
682
00:30:09.069 --> 00:30:10.069
Big fan of the priority.
683
00:30:10.089 --> 00:30:10.369
Yeah.
684
00:30:10.549 --> 00:30:11.990
So Sunil said, well, why don't, if I can get
685
00:30:12.009 --> 00:30:14.150
a 15 grand, that'd be brilliant. So I said, okay, well,
686
00:30:14.170 --> 00:30:16.589
I'll have 15 grand as well. And we'll get, what
687
00:30:16.609 --> 00:30:17.970
should we give him? Sunil was like, I don't know,
688
00:30:17.970 --> 00:30:21.049
20% of the business. Like it's literally the best investment
689
00:30:21.089 --> 00:30:22.089
David Coulthard has ever made.
690
00:30:22.109 --> 00:30:24.849
Yeah, Christ alive, that's a return.
691
00:30:25.130 --> 00:30:28.250
So he got 20% of Whisper for his 30 grand
692
00:30:28.630 --> 00:30:29.890
and he was brilliant at.
693
00:30:30.029 --> 00:30:30.819
Are you still selling them?
694
00:30:31.779 --> 00:30:36.099
I've got something else you might want to invest in,
695
00:30:36.099 --> 00:30:40.099
but we can talk about that separately. So we started and.
696
00:30:42.930 --> 00:30:45.630
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697
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ACAST recommends... Hi, I'm Ryan Tuberty.
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723
00:32:08.609 --> 00:32:11.470
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724
00:32:11.789 --> 00:32:13.369
and we talk about the books that have shaped their
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00:32:13.430 --> 00:32:16.009
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book they loved as a child, the book that brings
727
00:32:18.210 --> 00:32:20.680
them joy, and the book that changed their life.
728
00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:22.359
Over the seasons, I've chatted to.
729
00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:25.720
World leaders, cultural icons, sports stars, and some of my
730
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:28.759
favorite authors. Well, season five is now available. So if
731
00:32:28.779 --> 00:32:30.819
you love books, if you love stories, and you love
732
00:32:30.859 --> 00:32:34.180
great conversations, Come and join me on the bookshelf every Tuesday.
733
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:37.029
Watch on YouTube or indeed listen wherever you get your podcasts.
734
00:32:37.609 --> 00:32:41.569
Acast is home to the world's best podcasts, including Red Room,
735
00:32:42.089 --> 00:32:44.630
Catch Up with Louise McSharry, and the one you're listening
736
00:32:44.650 --> 00:32:45.809
to right now.
737
00:32:50.130 --> 00:32:51.869
And we got loads of commercial work and the business
738
00:32:51.910 --> 00:32:53.829
built up to seven or eight people, but there was
739
00:32:53.849 --> 00:32:56.750
still an element of being unfulfilled because we were TV people.
740
00:32:57.390 --> 00:33:00.960
And we were still not making television. So we then thought, well,
741
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:03.039
let's go and meet all these TV channels and say,
742
00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:06.200
come on, let's make your content. And this was a really,
743
00:33:06.220 --> 00:33:09.220
really interesting time. And a lot of takeaways, you may
744
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:11.240
well have experienced this as well. Certainly people listening to
745
00:33:11.259 --> 00:33:14.240
this might take something from it. We would meet the
746
00:33:14.289 --> 00:33:17.569
people that we used to work for and they wouldn't
747
00:33:17.630 --> 00:33:20.130
commission us to produce their content, even though we'd worked
748
00:33:20.190 --> 00:33:23.589
with them and they were our former colleagues. Because they
749
00:33:23.609 --> 00:33:25.130
were saying, well, you haven't got a track record of
750
00:33:25.150 --> 00:33:28.960
making anything. And we're like, well, whisper hasn't but we
751
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.940
have so how do we solve this dilemma part of
752
00:33:31.980 --> 00:33:34.319
it i think was was we were the people that
753
00:33:34.339 --> 00:33:35.980
had taken the risk and we were the people that
754
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:38.779
by then were probably a staff of as i say
755
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.170
about 10 people and maybe turning over two million pounds
756
00:33:41.190 --> 00:33:43.049
a year which to a lot of people like seems
757
00:33:43.069 --> 00:33:45.890
hugely successful right so there was probably an element of
758
00:33:45.950 --> 00:33:47.609
jealousy and um.
759
00:33:49.390 --> 00:33:52.630
And also kind of if you were colleagues, then why
760
00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:53.210
wouldn't it be them?
761
00:33:53.619 --> 00:33:54.240
I think so.
762
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:56.200
If it was you, if you can do that, like
763
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:57.839
I've done the same thing as you, so why aren't.
764
00:33:57.740 --> 00:33:59.519
They going to be you? Especially like senior colleagues who
765
00:33:59.539 --> 00:34:00.700
would look at us and go, hold on, you were
766
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.400
the kid from CBBC that was presenting Formula One. You
767
00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:04.589
were just an assistant producer.
768
00:34:04.730 --> 00:34:04.970
Sure.
769
00:34:05.230 --> 00:34:07.269
I'm an exec producer and now you're telling me that
770
00:34:07.470 --> 00:34:10.010
you can produce my content. So we have to find
771
00:34:10.050 --> 00:34:14.050
a way around this. And I've always been, actually it's
772
00:34:14.070 --> 00:34:16.440
a nonsense to say that, I now think this, I
773
00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:18.440
can't say I've always been, because as I've told you,
774
00:34:18.460 --> 00:34:19.199
I had no.
775
00:34:19.300 --> 00:34:19.949
Experience in this.
776
00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:24.829
I now realise every business is a recruitment business. It
777
00:34:24.929 --> 00:34:27.070
literally is the people. So we thought, well, let's just
778
00:34:27.110 --> 00:34:30.230
go and hire the best people that we can. So
779
00:34:30.250 --> 00:34:32.389
then we come back to this whole risk-taking thing. And
780
00:34:33.170 --> 00:34:36.199
I think that I had been armed against this risk
781
00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:37.800
by those things that had happened when I was younger.
782
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.420
I sort of had this mindset of, well, what can
783
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:42.320
possibly go wrong? I've had some stuff happen and it
784
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.230
was kind of all right. My hell of a failure
785
00:34:45.769 --> 00:34:48.130
led to me working in television. The death of my
786
00:34:48.170 --> 00:34:50.909
grandma led to an understanding that life is really precious
787
00:34:50.969 --> 00:34:52.780
and you need to enjoy every moment. My sacking from
788
00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:57.579
McDonald's led to me working in television because I had
789
00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.980
the spare time rather than frying fries. I was saying,
790
00:35:00.179 --> 00:35:01.400
I've got loads of tall man's, can I come and
791
00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:03.179
work for you? So I ended up at Rapture TV.
792
00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:06.889
All of the negatives, literally all of them had been
793
00:35:06.909 --> 00:35:09.550
turned into positives. So it kind of meant, well, what
794
00:35:09.590 --> 00:35:11.530
can go wrong? So we went to the best people
795
00:35:11.570 --> 00:35:13.659
that we work with and we said, Why don't you
796
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:15.679
come and work for us? And again, we were like
797
00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:22.219
totally shocked that these people would leave ITV, BBC, Channel 4,
798
00:35:22.219 --> 00:35:25.599
massive production companies. They'd leave those companies and come and
799
00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:28.099
work with us. But we knew that if we could
800
00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:30.880
get those people, then we could get the job. We
801
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:33.500
could win the work. Now, again, this is a slightly
802
00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:36.780
risky way of doing it. Most businesses go, well, if
803
00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:39.000
we win the work, then we'll hire the people. We
804
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.579
had to do it the other way. We had to
805
00:35:40.699 --> 00:35:45.599
find another way to do it. And I think one
806
00:35:45.619 --> 00:35:47.179
of the things I'm most proud of is that we've
807
00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:51.199
always found a way of doing something that nobody else
808
00:35:51.260 --> 00:35:53.900
has thought of or isn't a very popular way of operating. Okay.
809
00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:55.280
Which I think is really vital.
810
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:55.780
Yeah.
811
00:35:56.519 --> 00:36:00.039
I think, no, I think that is like a great
812
00:36:00.099 --> 00:36:02.570
origin story in the way of like, we've obviously I've
813
00:36:02.590 --> 00:36:04.570
had lots of different people on the podcast in terms
814
00:36:04.610 --> 00:36:07.130
of like the story of things starting up. But I
815
00:36:07.170 --> 00:36:11.909
think that a lot of the, entrepreneurship always seems like
816
00:36:11.989 --> 00:36:14.510
a big idea made happen rather than like a series
817
00:36:14.530 --> 00:36:16.769
of small ideas that kind of forms into what it
818
00:36:16.829 --> 00:36:19.889
ends up being which is this huge production company but
819
00:36:19.949 --> 00:36:22.530
actually it started from this one decision to like maybe
820
00:36:22.570 --> 00:36:24.170
try and get this one contract or.
821
00:36:24.130 --> 00:36:26.829
Yeah absolutely and by the way it's still this didn't
822
00:36:26.909 --> 00:36:29.449
solve the problem hiring these people was still a real
823
00:36:29.469 --> 00:36:32.010
challenge because what we found was instead of being told
824
00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:35.050
we'll never hire you we'd go in to try and
825
00:36:35.070 --> 00:36:36.489
win some work and they'd say well you've got some
826
00:36:36.510 --> 00:36:37.969
good people so we'll give you this work and it
827
00:36:37.989 --> 00:36:40.210
was like the the little bit of the contract you
828
00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:42.570
didn't really want to win. There was no value in it.
829
00:36:42.610 --> 00:36:44.869
It wasn't the elite stuff. And we wanted still to
830
00:36:44.889 --> 00:36:47.710
get the best stuff. And the other thing that was
831
00:36:47.750 --> 00:36:50.070
a bit of a challenge around this time was I
832
00:36:50.110 --> 00:36:52.929
was still working as a presenter. And it was important
833
00:36:52.989 --> 00:36:55.219
for me to make sure that my presenting was totally
834
00:36:55.300 --> 00:36:57.880
separate from the production company. Because what I didn't want
835
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:01.219
was this just to become a vehicle that was successful
836
00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:05.559
or unsuccessful, depending on my presenting career being successful or unsuccessful.
837
00:37:05.619 --> 00:37:08.059
And I remember I got a phone call from the
838
00:37:08.099 --> 00:37:10.849
head of Channel 4 when they won the rights to
839
00:37:10.889 --> 00:37:14.289
Formula One. So just to put a timeline on this,
840
00:37:14.909 --> 00:37:18.190
I had, we'd set Whisper up in about 2011. I
841
00:37:18.250 --> 00:37:22.300
joined BT Sport at the end of 2012. And I
842
00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:24.780
think at the end, towards the end of 2013, the
843
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:27.019
BBC lost the rights to Formula One. They went to
844
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.360
Channel 4. So we'd been going at Whisper maybe a
845
00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:29.920
couple of years.
846
00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:30.539
Right, right.
847
00:37:31.699 --> 00:37:33.530
And the head of Channel 4 rang and said to me,
848
00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:35.289
I want you to come and be the host of
849
00:37:35.329 --> 00:37:36.989
the Channel 4 coverage on Channel 4. And I said, well,
850
00:37:37.630 --> 00:37:39.840
I've just signed a contract with BT Sport. I'm really
851
00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:42.980
loyal to them. I don't feel comfortable walking away from
852
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.500
that contract. And then they said, well, if you accept
853
00:37:46.539 --> 00:37:53.210
the presenting job, then we could give Whisper the production work. Now,
854
00:37:53.230 --> 00:37:55.429
this is a multi-million pound contract we're talking about here.
855
00:37:55.590 --> 00:37:58.349
That is a juicy, juicy piece of work.
856
00:37:58.369 --> 00:38:00.389
So then I'm having to go to Sunol to tell
857
00:38:00.409 --> 00:38:02.289
him what happened. And he said, well, of course, you'll
858
00:38:02.349 --> 00:38:05.929
quit BT, present Formula One, and this will be, you know,
859
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.019
us made. So then I had to say, no, like,
860
00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:11.099
I'm really firm in the fact that what I do
861
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:13.019
is totally separate. We have to win this on merit.
862
00:38:14.099 --> 00:38:15.420
And I still think there'll be people in the industry
863
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:17.460
that don't think we won this on merit. But we
864
00:38:17.500 --> 00:38:19.380
absolutely did. And do you know what we did? We
865
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:21.719
went to all of our amazing contacts in Formula One
866
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:23.699
who were working for the Beeb and who were going
867
00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:25.099
to be available. And we said to all of them,
868
00:38:25.980 --> 00:38:28.219
agree to only work with us, only work with Whisper.
869
00:38:29.139 --> 00:38:31.760
Channel 4 were explicit. They said, we won't give you
870
00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:33.420
this contract. The only way we'd get it, it was
871
00:38:33.500 --> 00:38:35.539
if I came with it. And so we were up
872
00:38:35.579 --> 00:38:38.239
against a few other really big production companies, to win
873
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:40.340
the work. And so we actually went to all of
874
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:42.260
these people and said, sign this bit of paper that
875
00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:43.840
says you'll work with us or you'd love to work
876
00:38:43.860 --> 00:38:46.469
with Whisper and we'll make you part of our big package.
877
00:38:46.929 --> 00:38:49.349
The truth is they could have worked for anyone.
878
00:38:49.570 --> 00:38:50.070
Yeah, you can't.
879
00:38:50.329 --> 00:38:52.670
Right, you can't control who and when people work. But
880
00:38:52.690 --> 00:38:54.389
the fact we'd gone and got all of these names,
881
00:38:55.170 --> 00:38:56.789
presented them to Channel 4, and I remember we put
882
00:38:56.849 --> 00:39:01.269
on the, we created like a beautiful colour booklet and
883
00:39:01.309 --> 00:39:05.179
it said on there like 500 people hours of 500
884
00:39:05.179 --> 00:39:07.659
years combined experience of working in formula one like we
885
00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:10.659
were the most experienced people yeah we had to win
886
00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:13.250
it properly properly win it on merit and that was
887
00:39:13.429 --> 00:39:18.289
really the first big thing that we won which transformed
888
00:39:18.309 --> 00:39:21.449
the business and that was winning the rights to host
889
00:39:22.230 --> 00:39:25.190
and produce channel four's coverage of formula one and now
890
00:39:25.250 --> 00:39:27.849
we do we still do it we recently produced the
891
00:39:27.889 --> 00:39:30.639
lionesses for the bbc the whole of the women's euros
892
00:39:30.699 --> 00:39:34.340
we're producing the paris paralympics for channel four having just
893
00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:37.599
done the paralympics previously we work for uefa we work
894
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:41.030
for fifa we we just commissioned the daytime quiz show
895
00:39:41.050 --> 00:39:43.369
with stephen fry we've got a chat show in america
896
00:39:43.389 --> 00:39:46.510
that we've done we've got another daytime show for itv
897
00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:49.880
we like the business it's just picking up big wins
898
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.989
everywhere yeah and it all came from naivety it all
899
00:39:54.050 --> 00:39:57.269
came from taking that leap of faith and it all
900
00:39:57.289 --> 00:40:00.269
came from trying to find another way to solve the
901
00:40:00.309 --> 00:40:02.539
puzzle that no one else is solving in that way.
902
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:04.559
Yeah and it kind of sounds like a continuous like
903
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:06.159
one foot in front of the other and like a
904
00:40:06.219 --> 00:40:10.409
rerouting like someone saying someone creating a dead end And
905
00:40:10.449 --> 00:40:12.010
then you being like, right, okay, well, that's not the
906
00:40:12.050 --> 00:40:14.590
right way to do it. Let's go around this way.
907
00:40:14.630 --> 00:40:17.150
And you having that gut feeling that like, no, we're
908
00:40:17.190 --> 00:40:19.409
not going to get this purely through me presenting it.
909
00:40:19.469 --> 00:40:20.210
We're going to.
910
00:40:20.130 --> 00:40:21.050
Do this differently.
911
00:40:21.590 --> 00:40:25.599
Is like the conviction of that decision is, I mean,
912
00:40:25.619 --> 00:40:29.039
it's like really, really powerful and definitely... I don't think
913
00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:32.260
should be understated in terms of you being really clear
914
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:34.179
what you wanted from the business and what you wanted
915
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:36.360
from that kind of contract if you were going to
916
00:40:36.380 --> 00:40:40.460
get it what do you think the biggest mistakes you
917
00:40:40.539 --> 00:40:43.659
made when building that company were.
918
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:47.320
You see this is a really hard one because I
919
00:40:47.389 --> 00:40:51.670
can I can talk about me making mistakes personally one
920
00:40:51.690 --> 00:40:55.110
of the real challenges for whisper is because we did
921
00:40:55.130 --> 00:40:59.199
it slowly I don't I can't think of any really
922
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:01.780
big mistakes that we made. Because I think you could
923
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:05.170
argue that doing it really slowly, not taking on any
924
00:41:05.210 --> 00:41:08.710
investment would be a mistake. I mean, we also became
925
00:41:08.750 --> 00:41:11.150
part of something called the Channel 4 Growth Fund, right?
926
00:41:11.849 --> 00:41:14.949
Which was where Channel 4 were looking for production companies
927
00:41:15.050 --> 00:41:17.349
who were small but had more potential than they were
928
00:41:17.409 --> 00:41:22.420
realizing to grow. And they invested in us. Now you
929
00:41:22.460 --> 00:41:25.559
could say that was a mistake because they paid a
930
00:41:25.579 --> 00:41:27.699
really small amount for their stake and they sold it
931
00:41:27.780 --> 00:41:31.860
for a profit. which was great for them. But actually,
932
00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:35.389
I believe that Channel 4 totally transformed our business. So
933
00:41:35.469 --> 00:41:38.929
you can't always put the financial value of something at
934
00:41:38.969 --> 00:41:41.469
the centre of what you do. And I know this
935
00:41:41.510 --> 00:41:45.989
sounds like ridiculous, Grace, but Sunil is such a brilliant CEO.
936
00:41:46.409 --> 00:41:49.960
The business has been so fascinating to watch it grow.
937
00:41:50.139 --> 00:41:54.519
And I can't think of any big mistakes that we've made.
938
00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:59.420
The biggest thing we've done is to bring someone on
939
00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:03.739
board with a Formula One mindset in David Coulthard because
940
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:06.300
the exacting standards that he brings with him. We run
941
00:42:06.340 --> 00:42:10.650
ourselves like a motor racing team, like an elite sports outfit.
942
00:42:11.190 --> 00:42:13.110
That belief that they can do anything and they just
943
00:42:13.150 --> 00:42:14.849
make it happen. You know, make it happen is one
944
00:42:14.889 --> 00:42:16.769
of the mottos of the business. And we do everything
945
00:42:16.789 --> 00:42:19.989
we can to just make it happen. You know, we
946
00:42:20.050 --> 00:42:22.969
produced an amazing opening VT last year with Tom Cruise.
947
00:42:23.170 --> 00:42:23.289
Mm-hmm.
948
00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:25.519
Because we were just like, well, let's just make it happen.
949
00:42:25.539 --> 00:42:27.320
Let's just call Tom Cruise's office and see if it
950
00:42:27.340 --> 00:42:29.860
can happen. And lo and behold, the next thing we know,
951
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:33.230
Tom Cruise is personally calling the producer who's making the
952
00:42:33.250 --> 00:42:35.010
film at Whisper going, right, I've got some great ideas.
953
00:42:35.030 --> 00:42:37.130
Let's do this. He flies in in his own helicopter,
954
00:42:37.750 --> 00:42:39.570
films with us for a day and then shoots off again.
955
00:42:40.929 --> 00:42:44.070
Classic Tom. Classic Tom. As I would if I was
956
00:42:44.090 --> 00:42:48.900
Tom Cruise. Like thinking big, investing in people, keeping culture
957
00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:50.539
at the heart of what you do and trying to
958
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:53.059
do the right thing is also really important. I think,
959
00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.159
I just want to call out trying to do the
960
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:02.110
right thing as well because we are really, really passionate
961
00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:05.869
about equality. So we have an almost 50% female workforce.
962
00:43:06.570 --> 00:43:09.849
We have women in a really high position within the business.
963
00:43:10.389 --> 00:43:13.369
The CEO of the business is the Asian son of
964
00:43:13.550 --> 00:43:16.480
a news agents in Twickenham. Those people are totally underrepresented
965
00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:19.500
in our industry. When we produced the Paralympics, it was
966
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:23.059
important for us to make sure that the workforce behind
967
00:43:23.099 --> 00:43:26.010
the camera was We're disabled. Traditionally, it's just been the
968
00:43:26.030 --> 00:43:28.010
people in front of the camera, which to us felt
969
00:43:28.550 --> 00:43:32.250
kind of disingenuous. We run lots of scholarships with local
970
00:43:32.289 --> 00:43:34.969
universities and local colleges and the local area where we're
971
00:43:34.989 --> 00:43:37.789
based in West London to bring people into the business
972
00:43:37.889 --> 00:43:40.929
who don't normally get a chance in television. We run
973
00:43:40.989 --> 00:43:43.800
open days where anyone can apply to come and meet
974
00:43:43.889 --> 00:43:45.380
us and we can try and get them into the business.
975
00:43:46.440 --> 00:43:49.099
And I think that what that then brings us is
976
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:53.440
that real cognitive diversity, that diversity of thought, that different opinion.
977
00:43:54.110 --> 00:43:56.409
rather than us trying to produce content for a certain
978
00:43:56.429 --> 00:43:58.289
group of people that we think they want, let's get
979
00:43:58.349 --> 00:44:00.699
those people in and get them to produce the content
980
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:03.360
that they know they would want to watch. And I
981
00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:07.159
think if you can do what's right, then I think
982
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.719
that can be transformational for a business because actually it
983
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:13.260
kind of means that whether you hit your numbers financially
984
00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:15.820
or you don't, to know that you're doing things in
985
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:19.010
the right way actually carries a real value and I
986
00:44:19.030 --> 00:44:21.670
think other people see it. And I actually think it's
987
00:44:21.690 --> 00:44:23.760
hard to put value on it I think that's been
988
00:44:23.780 --> 00:44:25.480
a real game changer for us as a business that
989
00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:26.659
people from the outside look at it and go, oh
990
00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:27.119
my goodness.
991
00:44:27.449 --> 00:44:27.699
Yeah.
992
00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:29.730
They really do put their money where their mouth is. Yeah.
993
00:44:29.769 --> 00:44:32.610
I mean, I think that's incredibly valuable. As you say,
994
00:44:32.630 --> 00:44:35.469
I think you can tell companies that do that versus
995
00:44:35.730 --> 00:44:36.889
companies that don't do that.
996
00:44:36.949 --> 00:44:38.710
And actually... Lots of them say they do, right?
997
00:44:38.769 --> 00:44:39.289
Yeah, sure.
998
00:44:39.369 --> 00:44:42.659
And like everyone has a sustainability statement and an inclusivity
999
00:44:42.699 --> 00:44:44.780
statement and like, and all of the, like, this is
1000
00:44:44.820 --> 00:44:47.019
what we're trying to do to, you know, whatever it
1001
00:44:47.059 --> 00:44:50.019
might be. But actually something like a TV in particular
1002
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:54.420
that is incredibly hard to get into is especially without
1003
00:44:54.500 --> 00:44:57.340
any sort of kind of nepotism, which we know is
1004
00:44:57.380 --> 00:45:00.380
kind of rife in that type of industry, the actual
1005
00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:05.849
like positive moves in that way of actually like going
1006
00:45:05.929 --> 00:45:08.010
out of your way to ensure that that's the case.
1007
00:45:08.070 --> 00:45:10.269
I mean, when you're saying that from the perspective of
1008
00:45:10.329 --> 00:45:12.590
someone who was told we don't hire people like you
1009
00:45:12.889 --> 00:45:13.750
and from the point.
1010
00:45:13.610 --> 00:45:15.920
Where actually you've got your first.
1011
00:45:15.980 --> 00:45:18.940
Yeah, like as in you understand how important that is
1012
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.730
because you... were once put in the box of actually
1013
00:45:22.989 --> 00:45:24.369
and I'm not saying that's not to say that other
1014
00:45:24.389 --> 00:45:26.269
people don't understand it but it's in a way of
1015
00:45:26.289 --> 00:45:29.849
like in the same way as I want young women
1016
00:45:30.070 --> 00:45:32.010
in the room to be able to create clothes for
1017
00:45:32.050 --> 00:45:36.090
young women because I'm like sure it could be you
1018
00:45:36.110 --> 00:45:38.429
know we could have an all-male board and it could
1019
00:45:38.489 --> 00:45:41.820
be whatever it might be but actually like I know
1020
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:44.079
it's possible because I'm the one doing it and I
1021
00:45:44.139 --> 00:45:46.659
know why I feel so strongly about this sports bra
1022
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:48.820
or whatever it might be. Who am I to say
1023
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:51.699
that I'm the only person who can flip that trend
1024
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.610
in terms of being the person who's making the decisions,
1025
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:56.969
whether it's financial, whether it's product, whatever it might be.
1026
00:45:56.989 --> 00:45:59.210
I want to talk about high performance.
1027
00:45:59.550 --> 00:46:01.210
You are high performance. I mean, what is there to say?
1028
00:46:03.269 --> 00:46:06.010
I want to talk about the podcast, the decision to
1029
00:46:06.230 --> 00:46:08.949
start that. Where did that come into the whole kind
1030
00:46:08.989 --> 00:46:10.449
of production process?
1031
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:16.019
Company journey yeah so high performance is totally separate from
1032
00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:17.719
whisper right and i think that's the other thing that
1033
00:46:17.780 --> 00:46:20.960
i really enjoy is a bit of diversification um i
1034
00:46:20.980 --> 00:46:22.699
said i'd come on to it later now it's probably
1035
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:24.659
a good time to talk about it like when i
1036
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:25.099
had been.
1037
00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:29.820
At the bbc for for cbbc for eight years that
1038
00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:32.199
said 12 years i was at the bbc kids telly
1039
00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:35.400
and formula one like when i decided to leave the
1040
00:46:35.420 --> 00:46:40.039
bbc my contract was four more years of Formula One,
1041
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:45.460
World Cups, Olympics, Commonwealth Games, match of the day, match
1042
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.980
of the day two. I was hosting the one show
1043
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:49.420
at the time. I was working on all the big
1044
00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.809
royal events for the BBC events team. Like if you
1045
00:46:52.829 --> 00:46:55.909
were to create the dream TV presenter contract, that was
1046
00:46:55.949 --> 00:47:00.849
probably the contract. But when I left Rapture TV, I
1047
00:47:00.869 --> 00:47:02.650
had a cool boss there. And I said to him,
1048
00:47:02.670 --> 00:47:04.840
I'm going to go to London and try and get
1049
00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:07.690
a job. with you know this guy who's called me
1050
00:47:07.730 --> 00:47:09.349
from children's bbc see if it works out and he
1051
00:47:09.389 --> 00:47:11.650
said i love that you're taking that risk he said
1052
00:47:11.670 --> 00:47:14.849
just never sit in the comfy chair and i remember
1053
00:47:15.050 --> 00:47:17.170
those words ringing in my ears when i had this
1054
00:47:17.230 --> 00:47:19.010
amazing job offer from the bbc but then at the
1055
00:47:19.050 --> 00:47:22.340
same time an offer from bt sport to go there
1056
00:47:22.539 --> 00:47:24.800
and present their football coverage and it would have been
1057
00:47:24.820 --> 00:47:26.000
the easiest thing in the world to stay at the
1058
00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:27.699
beep for another four years but i thought you know
1059
00:47:27.739 --> 00:47:30.719
what i'm not going to sit in the comfy chair
1060
00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:33.630
i'm going to take a risk And I was full
1061
00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:36.289
of fear. I remember walking into an office about two
1062
00:47:36.329 --> 00:47:38.789
or three weeks after I joined BT Sport and I'd
1063
00:47:38.809 --> 00:47:41.150
walked away from the oldest and most famous broadcaster on
1064
00:47:41.170 --> 00:47:43.409
the planet. And I walked into a room and there
1065
00:47:43.429 --> 00:47:46.090
were six people sitting around a desk. And that was
1066
00:47:46.139 --> 00:47:50.820
the entirety of BT Sport. We were talking about opening titles, music,
1067
00:47:51.059 --> 00:47:54.039
where the studio should be, what the studio should look like,
1068
00:47:54.599 --> 00:47:56.719
what content we were going to put on. It was
1069
00:47:56.780 --> 00:48:00.769
like going from the world's greatest university back to like
1070
00:48:00.809 --> 00:48:02.710
a nursery or something. You know what I mean? You
1071
00:48:02.730 --> 00:48:05.050
went from the biggest and the best and the most
1072
00:48:05.090 --> 00:48:08.659
famous to something right in its infancy. It was the
1073
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:11.280
single most exciting thing that I've ever been involved in.
1074
00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:12.260
Yeah.
1075
00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:15.300
But it's about taking the risk. It's about taking that leap,
1076
00:48:15.380 --> 00:48:17.300
doing something a little bit different. It was important for me.
1077
00:48:17.300 --> 00:48:19.590
What pulled you towards that? Was it the fact that
1078
00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:23.289
it was different? Was it purely that? Or was it
1079
00:48:23.590 --> 00:48:25.489
kind of the potential that you saw from it?
1080
00:48:25.789 --> 00:48:29.030
It was the chance to... Well, the chance to present
1081
00:48:29.050 --> 00:48:31.449
Premier League football comes around very infrequently. And as a
1082
00:48:31.489 --> 00:48:33.820
sports presenter, Premier League and Champions League football is like,
1083
00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:36.199
to me, it's the elite. If you can present that,
1084
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:39.139
then you're in a very select band of people. I
1085
00:48:39.139 --> 00:48:42.920
also had this impression that I felt I needed to
1086
00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:45.619
leave the BBC because I'd come through the ranks there.
1087
00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:48.750
I'd come through Children's BBC to Formula One. I did
1088
00:48:48.869 --> 00:48:54.150
feel underappreciated and underloved. And I felt like almost the
1089
00:48:54.250 --> 00:48:57.010
only way to do that was... to walk away and
1090
00:48:57.030 --> 00:48:58.719
show someone else what I could do and deliver my
1091
00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:04.280
talents elsewhere. I also, we were having a baby, Florence,
1092
00:49:04.340 --> 00:49:06.900
our first child, and it was around that time as well.
1093
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:09.639
And so there was that playing on my mind about,
1094
00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:12.500
if I sign this deal with the BBC, I'm going
1095
00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:16.070
to be away an awful lot. It was a whole combination.
1096
00:49:16.070 --> 00:49:18.230
Of risk to change when you're about to have.
1097
00:49:18.110 --> 00:49:20.269
A, it was a combination of things, but the biggest
1098
00:49:20.349 --> 00:49:22.719
pull was let's just take a chance on this.
1099
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:23.000
Yeah.
1100
00:49:23.179 --> 00:49:25.599
Let's just see how this goes. I think I've always
1101
00:49:25.699 --> 00:49:27.599
been like that. I've always been someone that wants to
1102
00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:30.039
take a risk. You know, the reason why I tell
1103
00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:34.550
you that story was because I had this belief that
1104
00:49:35.289 --> 00:49:36.969
growing up, like I said, right at the start of
1105
00:49:36.989 --> 00:49:39.920
this conversation, you get normal people. And I was one
1106
00:49:39.940 --> 00:49:43.539
of those normal people. I would never, ever have made
1107
00:49:43.579 --> 00:49:46.860
a decision like walking away from the BBC to join
1108
00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:49.400
BT Sport at the start of my career. It was
1109
00:49:49.460 --> 00:49:52.059
only the time that I spent in Formula One and
1110
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:54.380
with all of these amazing elite people that I got
1111
00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:55.679
the chance to speak to them all. So I remember
1112
00:49:55.699 --> 00:49:57.039
the first time I was in the pit lane, I
1113
00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:00.019
was like, wow, that person's a billionaire team owner. That
1114
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:02.880
person's a Formula One driver. That person's a team principal.
1115
00:50:03.260 --> 00:50:06.420
That person's a globally famous actress. Like, I often used
1116
00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:09.030
to watch the races with Lewis Hamilton's girlfriend at the time,
1117
00:50:09.050 --> 00:50:11.699
Nicole Scherzinger. You know, so I was around. It was
1118
00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:13.510
just weird for me, this kid from Norfolk watching a
1119
00:50:13.530 --> 00:50:18.769
Grand Prix in Bahrain, sitting next to Nicole Scherzinger and
1120
00:50:18.789 --> 00:50:20.510
then Lewis Hamilton coming in and having a chat with you.
1121
00:50:20.530 --> 00:50:23.849
It was a strange time, kind of weird. But what
1122
00:50:23.869 --> 00:50:25.690
I did was I used it to say to all
1123
00:50:25.710 --> 00:50:28.150
these people, like, what's the secret? How did you get
1124
00:50:28.170 --> 00:50:30.090
to where you got to? Thinking that they would go, well,
1125
00:50:30.510 --> 00:50:33.429
I was born into wealth or my parents were billionaires. Oh,
1126
00:50:33.710 --> 00:50:37.460
this was always destined for me. They'd never said that.
1127
00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:42.380
They talked about consistency. They talked about taking a chance
1128
00:50:42.659 --> 00:50:44.519
and taking a risk and taking a leap of faith.
1129
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.300
And they talked about hard work. And I took all
1130
00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:49.570
of those things. And I always wanted to then have
1131
00:50:49.610 --> 00:50:51.809
the kinds of conversations that we're now having on high performance.
1132
00:50:52.690 --> 00:50:55.250
But it felt churlish to have these conversations without actually
1133
00:50:55.309 --> 00:50:58.800
living it myself. So the inspiration to walk away from
1134
00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:02.000
Formula One ironically came from Formula One, that those people
1135
00:51:02.179 --> 00:51:05.360
are inherent. risk takers they will take a chance they'll
1136
00:51:05.380 --> 00:51:08.139
do something that most people won't do and that's really
1137
00:51:08.179 --> 00:51:10.539
what led to us creating high performance I wanted to
1138
00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:15.059
have these kinds of conversations and it felt like a
1139
00:51:15.159 --> 00:51:16.920
podcast was the right platform to do it.
1140
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:19.429
On and so that started am I right in thinking
1141
00:51:19.489 --> 00:51:22.409
it mainly started with a lot of sports people it.
1142
00:51:22.389 --> 00:51:25.949
Did so I also had this fear like this imposter
1143
00:51:25.969 --> 00:51:27.929
syndrome thing where I was like no one's going to
1144
00:51:27.969 --> 00:51:30.090
care what a former kids tv presenter that's done a
1145
00:51:30.110 --> 00:51:32.150
bit of presenting on football and formula one thinks about
1146
00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:36.699
high performance Um, so I'm, I was at a talk
1147
00:51:36.739 --> 00:51:38.920
at Norwich city football club and I met Damien Hughes,
1148
00:51:38.940 --> 00:51:41.159
who's my co-host as you know, you've met him. And
1149
00:51:41.179 --> 00:51:44.619
then I thought maybe this guy could be the guy
1150
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:47.820
that brings the credibility to the conversation. So I just
1151
00:51:47.860 --> 00:51:49.150
called him and I said, look, I really want to
1152
00:51:49.170 --> 00:51:52.949
have a conversation with people about high achievement and success
1153
00:51:53.010 --> 00:51:55.650
and failure and all these things. Would you be happy
1154
00:51:55.670 --> 00:51:59.860
to be part of that conversation? Again, imposter syndrome told
1155
00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:01.119
me that he would say no, but he didn't. He
1156
00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:05.949
said yes. And we started at the back end of 2019.
1157
00:52:05.949 --> 00:52:08.409
Where the whole thing that was taking a huge shift
1158
00:52:08.750 --> 00:52:10.869
is that in all honesty, like when we first started
1159
00:52:10.909 --> 00:52:13.340
High Performance, it was mainly sports people because those were
1160
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:15.699
my contacts and they were his contacts. And you know
1161
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:17.820
what it's like when you first start, you don't have
1162
00:52:17.900 --> 00:52:19.760
any evidence that this thing's gonna be successful.
1163
00:52:19.780 --> 00:52:21.340
You have to rely on your- Yeah, mine was founders really.
1164
00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:22.460
It was kind of, you know, it's natural.
1165
00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:25.429
You rely on your black book, right? But I wanted
1166
00:52:25.449 --> 00:52:29.730
the conversation back then to be life's about failing, faltering, slipping,
1167
00:52:30.309 --> 00:52:34.250
getting punched in the guts, getting back up, taking a risk,
1168
00:52:34.369 --> 00:52:37.010
getting knocked down, going again. And the reason for that
1169
00:52:37.030 --> 00:52:38.840
is because that was my story. That's all the things
1170
00:52:38.860 --> 00:52:42.099
that I've spoken about. It's only now three years down
1171
00:52:42.139 --> 00:52:44.139
the line of having these conversations on high performance that
1172
00:52:44.179 --> 00:52:47.780
I realized that none of that is what success is.
1173
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:51.119
None of that creates more success. Getting punched in the
1174
00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:54.179
guts and talking badly to yourself and failing and faltering
1175
00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:57.969
just creates more of the same. So the biggest revelation
1176
00:52:57.989 --> 00:52:59.610
for me is that my idea of what high performance
1177
00:52:59.670 --> 00:53:02.730
is has fundamentally changed from doing this podcast. You know, like,
1178
00:53:03.469 --> 00:53:06.849
is there a higher high performance than happiness? Probably not.
1179
00:53:07.010 --> 00:53:07.230
No.
1180
00:53:07.510 --> 00:53:09.469
When I first started, was it even in the top
1181
00:53:09.469 --> 00:53:11.309
50 things that I thought were going to be important?
1182
00:53:11.570 --> 00:53:13.730
Probably not. So it's been really good for me in
1183
00:53:13.750 --> 00:53:14.230
that respect.
1184
00:53:14.670 --> 00:53:17.030
Who would you say you've learned most from as a guest,
1185
00:53:17.110 --> 00:53:17.929
obviously other than me?
1186
00:53:18.760 --> 00:53:20.000
Obviously you were incredible.
1187
00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:20.260
Yes.
1188
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:23.159
But it wouldn't feel right to sit here and regale
1189
00:53:23.179 --> 00:53:26.619
you with tales of your own stories. I mean, Johnny Wilkinson,
1190
00:53:26.659 --> 00:53:28.380
if people have not heard of high performance and they
1191
00:53:28.420 --> 00:53:31.699
want to have their brains put through a washing machine.
1192
00:53:32.340 --> 00:53:37.219
Listen to our conversation with Johnny Wilkinson. It's the conversation
1193
00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:39.500
that changed the game for the High Performance Podcast. And
1194
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:42.000
so Johnny Wilkinson kicked the drop goal that won the
1195
00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:45.119
Rugby World Cup for England in 2003. He told us
1196
00:53:45.139 --> 00:53:49.570
that doing the washing up is as important as winning
1197
00:53:49.610 --> 00:53:52.809
the Rugby World Cup. And so we're like, well, you
1198
00:53:52.849 --> 00:53:53.670
need to explain that.
1199
00:53:53.730 --> 00:53:55.369
Yes, I am lost.
1200
00:53:55.510 --> 00:53:56.969
And he said, well, let me just break it down
1201
00:53:57.010 --> 00:54:00.059
for you. What is... Playing rugby or winning the Rugby
1202
00:54:00.099 --> 00:54:03.039
World Cup, using your body to achieve a goal. What
1203
00:54:03.079 --> 00:54:05.519
is doing the washing up? Using your body to achieve
1204
00:54:05.539 --> 00:54:08.539
a goal. Why is winning the Rugby World Cup here
1205
00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:11.699
and washing up to a brilliant level here? It's because
1206
00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:13.880
society tells us that winning the Rugby World Cup is
1207
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:16.440
more important. We were joined by Hector Beyerin on the
1208
00:54:16.460 --> 00:54:18.500
podcast who told us you need to live like a candle,
1209
00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:20.909
which is exactly the same message. He said, you need
1210
00:54:20.929 --> 00:54:23.110
to be a candle. Your flame needs to burn the same.
1211
00:54:23.130 --> 00:54:26.530
So let's say you have some really bad results. with
1212
00:54:26.550 --> 00:54:28.800
your business, right? And financially you're struggling or the sales
1213
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:31.760
dip or something. And then equally the next month, you
1214
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:33.820
have an amazing month and you break all your records.
1215
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:36.820
You are no less of a person for your difficult month.
1216
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:39.920
And you're no more of a person for your brilliant month,
1217
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:42.900
which was a great revelation for us. Susie Ma came
1218
00:54:42.940 --> 00:54:46.119
on the podcast and she spoke about making sure that
1219
00:54:46.340 --> 00:54:48.980
all of your plans are infinite. So she spoke about
1220
00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:52.340
infinite purpose. So purpose could be, I'm going to get
1221
00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:54.400
a six pack. Well, the problem with that is you
1222
00:54:54.420 --> 00:54:56.710
either get a six pack And then you lose motivation
1223
00:54:56.730 --> 00:54:58.329
because you got it. Or you don't get it and
1224
00:54:58.349 --> 00:55:00.250
you lose motivation because you never got it. So she
1225
00:55:00.289 --> 00:55:04.309
came on and spoke about infinite purpose, finding your purpose
1226
00:55:04.329 --> 00:55:07.010
that never ends. So originally with High Performance, we were like,
1227
00:55:07.179 --> 00:55:10.460
let's reach 10 million people with the message of High Performance.
1228
00:55:11.400 --> 00:55:15.380
We've now had about 40 million downloads. So that's a
1229
00:55:15.460 --> 00:55:17.860
nonsense number to have picked out. So the purpose of
1230
00:55:17.880 --> 00:55:21.369
High Performance is reach more people every single day to
1231
00:55:21.389 --> 00:55:24.489
get them closer to their own version of High Performance.
1232
00:55:25.300 --> 00:55:29.039
We were joined by Rangan Chatterjee, who spoke about ikigai,
1233
00:55:29.460 --> 00:55:31.880
which is your reason for being. So what are you
1234
00:55:31.900 --> 00:55:35.559
good at? What do you love doing? What does the
1235
00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:39.179
world need? And what can generate income? If you can
1236
00:55:39.260 --> 00:55:42.219
find something that you're good at and you love, and
1237
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:44.360
that the world needs, and that you can use it
1238
00:55:44.389 --> 00:55:46.019
to pay your bills so you can actually do it,
1239
00:55:47.050 --> 00:55:50.489
that is the reason for being. That is your ikigai.
1240
00:55:51.289 --> 00:55:52.789
And the final one that I would call out is
1241
00:55:52.989 --> 00:55:56.530
this idea of fault versus responsibility. that's a big learning
1242
00:55:56.570 --> 00:55:59.019
for us on the podcast that we all walk around
1243
00:55:59.179 --> 00:56:01.760
with all kinds of things that are not our fault.
1244
00:56:02.739 --> 00:56:06.280
Trauma from childhood, an illness that you're not expecting, like
1245
00:56:06.420 --> 00:56:08.880
a global pandemic is probably the biggest, the most obvious
1246
00:56:09.699 --> 00:56:12.300
example of something that's none of our fault that's happened
1247
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:15.130
in the last few years. You know, a breakdown in
1248
00:56:15.150 --> 00:56:17.309
a relationship with a partner, someone cheating on you or
1249
00:56:17.349 --> 00:56:20.809
walking out the door, whatever. Those things are not your fault.
1250
00:56:21.670 --> 00:56:23.699
The difficult conversation we need to have with people is,
1251
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:29.179
They're still your responsibility. It's your responsibility. And that finding
1252
00:56:29.219 --> 00:56:34.460
that mindset of 100% responsibility is a really like fascinating
1253
00:56:34.659 --> 00:56:38.679
tenant of the high performance podcast. So my mind has
1254
00:56:38.699 --> 00:56:43.809
just been totally opened up, exploded, changed, altered, and it
1255
00:56:43.869 --> 00:56:47.030
is no longer. And I almost like regret the title
1256
00:56:47.090 --> 00:56:50.309
high performance. It makes it sound like high wealth, high earnings,
1257
00:56:50.349 --> 00:56:54.179
high status. it's none of those things it's high happiness
1258
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:58.960
it's high self-worth it's talking well to yourself because everyone
1259
00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:02.539
now is delaying their happiness mainly because of social media
1260
00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:05.139
the pressures from society the kind of messaging that not
1261
00:57:05.179 --> 00:57:07.199
on this podcast but lots of podcasts put out there
1262
00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:09.280
lots of social media channels put out there they're like
1263
00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:11.440
get this house and you'll be happy you know you
1264
00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:14.900
could chart life right do well at my GCSEs I'll
1265
00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:17.679
be happy to do well at my A-levels then I'd
1266
00:57:17.699 --> 00:57:19.380
definitely be happy well if I can get my place
1267
00:57:19.420 --> 00:57:20.780
at uni I'll really be happy but if I get
1268
00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:22.619
a first I'll be delighted now I want my dream
1269
00:57:22.659 --> 00:57:25.079
job but I definitely want a promotion then I'll be
1270
00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:27.639
really happy and now I can buy my first house
1271
00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:29.460
well it's a two bed once I get a four
1272
00:57:29.480 --> 00:57:31.179
bed I'll be delighted then I'll try and meet my
1273
00:57:31.219 --> 00:57:33.199
life partner if we get married I'll be happy but
1274
00:57:33.219 --> 00:57:34.949
then I won't be really happy till we have kids
1275
00:57:35.030 --> 00:57:36.510
but that's kind of great but I won't be happy
1276
00:57:36.530 --> 00:57:38.969
till they're happy and then I'll finally retire then I'll
1277
00:57:38.989 --> 00:57:41.289
definitely really relax and be happy and then I'll go
1278
00:57:41.329 --> 00:57:43.489
abroad and we'll live abroad then I'll finally relax and
1279
00:57:43.510 --> 00:57:47.440
be really happy you're dead
1280
00:57:47.460 --> 00:57:49.530

1281
00:57:49.570 --> 00:57:51.769

1282
00:57:51.789 --> 00:57:53.909

1283
00:57:53.949 --> 00:57:55.909

1284
00:57:55.929 --> 00:57:58.090

1285
00:57:58.190 --> 00:58:00.329

1286
00:58:00.349 --> 00:58:02.159

1287
00:58:02.179 --> 00:58:04.440

1288
00:58:04.539 --> 00:58:07.079

1289
00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.760

1290
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:12.719
condense all of those messages for people then I think
1291
00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:14.900
we've done a good job on high performance but it's
1292
00:58:14.980 --> 00:58:18.110
not about making money and being successful and building your.
1293
00:58:18.050 --> 00:58:21.349
Wealth yeah I think such important messages and I think
1294
00:58:22.050 --> 00:58:25.820
they're the types of things that we hear almost not
1295
00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:27.619
I don't say over and over in a way to
1296
00:58:27.639 --> 00:58:31.230
kind of do down how important they are but I
1297
00:58:31.269 --> 00:58:33.909
think they're the messages that we need to hear probably
1298
00:58:33.969 --> 00:58:36.269
like once or twice a week to actually even ever
1299
00:58:36.309 --> 00:58:39.659
start internalizing. Like we all know we're delaying happiness. We
1300
00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:42.329
all know we're, And then we always think that we're
1301
00:58:42.349 --> 00:58:45.030
the exception that needs to get success first because we're
1302
00:58:45.090 --> 00:58:47.320
harder than the others and therefore we're resilient enough to
1303
00:58:47.380 --> 00:58:51.000
delay happiness for now. But actually, you kind of need
1304
00:58:51.019 --> 00:58:53.679
to be constantly internalising those messages in order to be
1305
00:58:53.739 --> 00:58:57.639
able to actually get to a point where you're understanding
1306
00:58:57.679 --> 00:59:00.219
that you're enjoying the journey, not just the destination, and
1307
00:59:00.260 --> 00:59:02.590
understanding that the goalposts are always going to move. So
1308
00:59:02.610 --> 00:59:04.449
you've got to make the goalposts different. You've got to
1309
00:59:04.489 --> 00:59:07.030
make the thing about the actual, you know, even getting
1310
00:59:07.050 --> 00:59:07.949
there in the first place.
1311
00:59:07.969 --> 00:59:09.579
And by the way, like I still get a thrill
1312
00:59:09.659 --> 00:59:11.000
from things being successful.
1313
00:59:11.059 --> 00:59:11.639
Of course.
1314
00:59:11.820 --> 00:59:13.119
I still get a buzz from that.
1315
00:59:13.179 --> 00:59:13.420
Yeah.
1316
00:59:13.539 --> 00:59:16.199
I'm not saying don't be thrilled as you go along.
1317
00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:19.280
I'm just saying don't not be thrilled as you go along.
1318
00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:22.170
Like it's about those little wins, those little things every day.
1319
00:59:22.710 --> 00:59:24.449
Part of the issue, I think, is we can talk
1320
00:59:24.469 --> 00:59:27.289
like this for hours. The way the human brain obviously
1321
00:59:27.329 --> 00:59:30.730
works is it only takes one much more toxic negative
1322
00:59:30.789 --> 00:59:34.429
message to dominate people's thoughts so you know one of
1323
00:59:34.449 --> 00:59:35.909
the big things that we talk about when we go
1324
00:59:35.949 --> 00:59:37.730
and sort of meet groups of people and do workshops
1325
00:59:37.769 --> 00:59:40.269
and talk about high performance is they're like i know
1326
00:59:40.309 --> 00:59:43.010
all this but then i just see my neighbor with
1327
00:59:43.050 --> 00:59:45.639
a new car and i can't help but think ah
1328
00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:48.480
i wish that was me my answer to that always
1329
00:59:48.559 --> 00:59:51.340
is if you want what someone else has got right
1330
00:59:51.760 --> 00:59:55.389
whether it's their house their car their kids, their holiday, whatever.
1331
00:59:55.429 --> 00:59:57.289
Like my wife's currently got FOMO because all our friends
1332
00:59:57.309 --> 00:59:58.590
are going to go on a skiing holiday in a
1333
00:59:58.610 --> 01:00:01.389
few weeks and we're not, right? If you want the
1334
01:00:01.409 --> 01:00:03.489
things that they've got, you have to have everything they've got.
1335
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:06.449
So that involves getting rid of your kids and having
1336
01:00:06.489 --> 01:00:09.820
their kids. That involves having the little traumas that they
1337
01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:12.420
have that you don't even see. It can often involve
1338
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:14.719
having the big traumas that you even know about. You
1339
01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:16.840
can't cherry pick the best bits of everyone's lives and
1340
01:00:16.860 --> 01:00:19.199
want that for your life. If you want what they've got,
1341
01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:21.000
you need to be all in and have the lot.
1342
01:00:21.460 --> 01:00:23.480
And by the way, give up everything you've got. I
1343
01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:25.730
think once you say that to someone, you want to
1344
01:00:25.750 --> 01:00:27.750
give up your house, your kids, your job, your life,
1345
01:00:27.809 --> 01:00:30.289
your family, your parents for that.
1346
01:00:30.789 --> 01:00:31.190
Definitely.
1347
01:00:31.889 --> 01:00:35.449
Very few would say yes. So just stop that toxic
1348
01:00:35.849 --> 01:00:38.949
comparison of your life with other people's. Don't play the game.
1349
01:00:39.280 --> 01:00:42.280
Don't get sucked in. It's not real. You are enough.
1350
01:00:43.460 --> 01:00:45.639
What a good place to end. Thank you so much
1351
01:00:45.780 --> 01:00:48.119
for coming in. That's been a real, I mean, I
1352
01:00:48.139 --> 01:00:48.440
feel like.
1353
01:00:48.460 --> 01:00:50.059
Thanks for letting me talk to you. Yeah.
1354
01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:53.880
Which was really actually very helpful. You're incredible. Your career
1355
01:00:53.900 --> 01:00:57.440
has been incredible. And it's been, yeah, amazing to watch
1356
01:00:57.480 --> 01:01:00.099
for the amount of time I've kind of watched it.
1357
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:02.440
And yeah, thank you so much.
1358
01:01:02.659 --> 01:01:04.139
You're so kind. I bet you feel like me, though,
1359
01:01:04.179 --> 01:01:06.010
that you feel like you're actually 5% of the way there.
1360
01:01:06.429 --> 01:01:07.139
Yeah. Yeah.
1361
01:01:07.510 --> 01:01:09.960
That's exciting, though, right? Yeah, kind of.
1362
01:01:09.969 --> 01:01:11.349
I want some sleep.
1363
01:01:12.929 --> 01:01:13.730
We all want more sleep.
1364
01:01:25.929 --> 01:01:28.639
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1365
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:31.559
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