How to Build Connection Despite the Social Tax of Autism with Jessica Penot

WEBVTT
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Autistic people have so much to offer, and yet
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so many have a struggle to fit into a world that
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isn't designed for us. I want to help change
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that. Welcome to the Working Class Autistic podcast,
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where I talk to experts and discuss ways for
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autistic adults to thrive and reach their full
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potential at work and beyond. I'm your host,
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Kevin Joseph. Now, let's get to work. Hello,
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everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
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of Working Class Autistic. I hope you've all
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been doing well as we start getting into fall
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weather. Over on my end, I've recently started
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the graduate program for clinical mental health
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counseling, which has been a big adjustment.
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It's been over 10 years since I last went to
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school, and so it's been a really big adjustment
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trying to get back into studying, getting back
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to that learning mindset. But it's something
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I've always been interested in, and I'm really
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looking forward to taking this next step in my
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career and life, really. And that dovetails nicely
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with this week's guest, who is Jessica Pinot,
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an autistic therapist and writer. Jessica was
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diagnosed with autism in her 40s, which helped
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her understand a lifetime of feeling different.
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She's the author of several books, including
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the Unmasking Autism workbook for artistic adults.
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I wanted to have Jessica on because of her work
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on unmasking and also about her discussions about
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the social tax of autism. We had a really good
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conversation, including a discussion about a
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new app that Jessica herself developed. Now,
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let's get into the interview. All right. Hello,
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Jessica. Thanks so much for joining. Hi. Thank
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you for having me. Yeah, it's great to have you.
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To get us started, can you describe your history
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with autism? I mean, I've been autistic all my
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life. I wasn't diagnosed until I was in my 40s,
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although it's interesting because I found, obviously,
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like most autistic adults, I had mental health
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issues as a child as well. They knew there was
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something weird about me, and they kept trying
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to find out what it was, but at the time, they're
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just... The tools weren't there to figure it
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out. And I looked at all my, my testing and the
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data all aligned. They just didn't diagnose it.
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You know, since I do testing now, I can see that
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the profile was there. It's just, I think I was
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a girl, so they weren't going to call it a spade
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a spade back then. Yeah, I mean, that seems to
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be a very common story, unfortunately, for like
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women, especially, you know, older women. And
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I think it's really unfortunate. And looking
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back, are there things that you wish had been
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like, are there things that you wish had been
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noticed or like different signs that like, oh,
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hey, you know, you were definitely autistic,
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you know, I wish they had put this out. You know,
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I. If I had lived now, it would have been nice
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to have been noticed, but you know, I'm older.
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So like, I feel like if they had known that I
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was autistic when I was a child, I just would
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have been put in ABA and, you know, ABA back
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then, you know, they still like electric shocked
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kids who were weird. And I don't think that would
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have been helpful to me. I think that just would
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have made my life a lot harder. So yeah, the
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era I was in, I probably was good to avoid a
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diagnosis. Yeah, that's a good point. And it's
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interesting that that kind of maybe would have
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been helped better off in the long run, avoiding
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the diagnosis or avoiding that kind of attitude
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back then of winning ABA and all that. So it's
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an interesting perspective. So you've written
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a lot about social structures, the social tax
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of autism. I was wondering if you could talk
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a little bit about social structures and how
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that relates to autism. I mean, I feel like I've
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been thinking about this a lot lately, that everything
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in our society is based on your social skills,
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like almost everything you do. You know, if you
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want to get a job. Honestly, the research shows
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that social skills are more important to maintaining
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and obtaining employment than actual skills.
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Like, you know, the charming person that's able
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to like navigate the boss and hang out with the
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cool kids at work is more likely to keep their
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job than the person that's actually good at their
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job that nobody likes. You know, and then, you
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know, even smaller social structures like, you
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know, I'm in an HOA and I'm always having issues
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with them. And I realize it's because there's
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a lot of these things that we're supposed to
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be doing. And people talk about us behind our
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back, but they don't tell us. So we don't know
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what the problem is. And I don't understand unless
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you tell me. Like, I'm not just going to know
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that what I'm doing is weird or off -putting
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to the neighbors unless you knock on my door
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and say, hey, that's really weird. Can you stop
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that? Because I don't really, you know, social
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norms don't make a lot of sense to me. So even
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like living in a neighborhood or in an apartment
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complex becomes very difficult. So, you know,
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you have jobs, you have your home, your community,
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you know, school, education, you know, because
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definitely if you stand out in school, you're
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going to be bullied and picked on. So there's
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like this huge tax that no matter what you're
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doing or what aspect of your life you're in,
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If you don't have social skills, it can damage
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your whole quality of life. Right. And these
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aren't small things. Right. Like you can't work.
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You can't live in a neighborhood or an apartment
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complex. You can't go to school. These are big
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things. Right. You're mentioning, you know, home,
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school, work. Those are like basically all of
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life, you know, wherever you spend time, you
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know. So, yeah, definitely. I definitely agree
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with you there. I agree with you on the things
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about, you know, people talking behind your backs
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or saying like, oh, why isn't that person doing
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the right thing when you don't even know what
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the right thing is according to their viewpoint.
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So it's definitely very frustrating. What are
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some things that, you know, autistic people can
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do to help kind of, I don't want to say combat
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that, but like, you know, get used to that or
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work around that? Or is there things, other things
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we could do to work around that or is this something
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we're kind of stuck with? I mean, I feel like
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my answer lately has been creating autistic communities.
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And, you know, I think that's going to take a
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while, you know, like, so I've been I've been
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working on this app. It's like my passion project.
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And, you know, it's like so new that it's probably
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not a useful tool right now. But like in it,
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my goal is that if all autistic people got in
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it and gave things like these are neuro affirmative
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employers and these are neuro affirmative neighborhoods.
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And this is a business where, you know, you can
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go where you won't be. treated poorly that we
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could create some kind of like database of safe
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places where we knew know the autistic community
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is safe and won't be judged for being weird so
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i don't feel like we have those structures in
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place now But I feel like my goal personally
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is to create those structures for us, right?
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Yeah, it sounds like a really interesting app.
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Sounds almost like, you know, like Yelp for autistic
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people or something like that, you know? Yeah.
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A way to share, like, what are some things we
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can look for to know, like, okay, is this business,
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you know, neuroaffirming or the neighborhood,
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that sort of thing? And what are things we can
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look for? Yeah. So, you know, if you were looking
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for a job and you got hired by an employer before
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you said yes, you could look and say, oh, no,
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they specifically fire people for being weird.
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So maybe I won't take that job. Interesting.
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What about businesses like going to like businesses
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and you want to support businesses that are neuroaffirming?
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What can you look for there? Well, you know,
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and what I'm trying to put in the app is like,
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you know, because what I've noticed is that neuroaffirming
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is different for different people as far as businesses.
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And, you know, we have a. Because I started a
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nonprofit here called the Neuroaffirmative Autism
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Research Center. We call it NARC. And we have
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like these big groups. And the group topic last
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week was like, what is neuroaffirmative to you?
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Because like some people like going to a loud
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concert is very comforting, right? Like that
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loud noise because they're sensory seeking and
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they love it. But other people, it's like the
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worst thing in the world. It's like dying. What
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I'm trying to do as far as rating is like also
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having descriptions of what type of neuroaffirmative
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it is. Like, you know, like Walmart can be neuroaffirmative
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when they have sensory hours because they have
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sensory hours between 8 and 10. But if you go
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any other time, that's definitely not neuroaffirmative,
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right? Yeah. You know, and the library is almost
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always neuroaffirmative, I feel like, because
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it's quiet. But having people rate. What is neuroaffirmative
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about it? When is the neuroaffirmative time to
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go? And, you know, like what type of sensory
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environment it is, is the end goal. Yeah, it's
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interesting. And it's interesting that you mentioned
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like Walmart. It sounds like there are certain
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times where it may be neuroaffirming, some trends
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where it's not. I know I personally like to go
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to the grocery store when it's not as busy, just
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because there's less people around, less chaos,
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you know. That's the sort of thing that can be
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really helpful. Can you tell a bit more about
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your nonprofit and what led you to start that
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and the type of work you do? So I own a private
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practice and we just started, it's called Tree
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of Life Behavioral Health, and we just started
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a little support group for autistic adults. And,
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you know, it exploded. Like we weren't prepared.
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I was not prepared. Like, you know, we had like
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five people and then all of a sudden there's
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like 30 people cramming in my office and I'm
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like, oh, this is not good. So we kind of branched
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out and pieced together the nonprofit. so that
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we could start getting donations and things so
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that we could get bigger space, have volunteers,
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have more groups. We created a Discord server
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so that we could have an online platform for
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people who are not comfortable with in -person
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spaces. Yeah, and now we have free counseling
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and free autism testing available too, although
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our wait list has gotten... long for those services
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um so it sometimes takes us two or three months
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to get you in for those right now but yeah so
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it just exploded because the need was so high
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and we weren't prepared for that when we started
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it no that's that's great though it means there's
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a lot of people who could really benefit from
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that kind of experience and that kind of kind
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of group so it's great that you started it yeah
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it's been a lot of fun too because the people
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in it are amazing What I've learned from this,
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too, is that, you know, when autistic people
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are together, we like each other. You know, the
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social difference, the social problems aren't
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between us. It's just with us and neurotypicals.
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Like because when we're in our groups and we're
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doing their like social events, like we're all
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enjoying each other's company. You know, we all
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get along fine. Yeah. It's when we're with neurotypicals
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that the struggle comes up. Yeah. Yeah. I've
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heard described as like a double empathy problem
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where people can understand each other. pretty
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well and neurotypical people can understand each
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other pretty well. But then once you cross the
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streams, it gets more difficult to communicate
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or that connection can be lost. So yeah, definitely
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those autistic focus groups or groups focused
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for neurodiverse people in particular can be
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really, really useful. What kind of things do
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you do in the group? Well, we have just one main
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big support group, but then we have the Discord
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server, which is like a 24 -hour, you know, I'm
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sure you know what Discord is. You see me. technically
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savvy. So, you know, there's like 24 hour chat
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going where if people need support, they can
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always get it. And then there's an online group.
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And then, you know, they go out and have social
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events sometimes, like go to movies and do things
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together. We have on Friday nights, we have like
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a create and connect group for people that have
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are less verbal because we try to divide up a
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little bit because some of our group members
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are really hyperverbal and they'll bulldoze over
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the people who have trouble. So the Friday night
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group is Create and Connect, where we just play
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board games or do a craft, and then you can or
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talk or you don't have to talk. It's just being
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together and body doubling, I guess. We have
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a Dungeons and Dragons group on Monday. That's
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really fun. I think that's all we have active
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right now. No, it sounds like a lot, though.
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It sounds like a lot of different activities,
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especially those that not just people may find
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fun or interesting. Oh, we have an online group
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too. Did I say we have like an online like Zoom
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group too? Oh, okay. That's cool. How often do
00:11:49.379 --> 00:11:52.679
you guys meet? That's Tuesdays, Tuesday nights.
00:11:52.980 --> 00:11:56.039
Okay, cool. Like a weekly meet together online.
00:11:56.100 --> 00:11:58.039
That sounds like a lot of fun. A really good
00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:01.659
source of community and togetherness. You've
00:12:01.659 --> 00:12:05.399
also written an unmasking workbook for autistic
00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.159
people. And so I'm wondering if you talk to some
00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:09.480
ways autistic adults can like unmask and some
00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:12.279
of the advice you have there. I mean, I feel
00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:15.059
like I have this step by step process now for
00:12:15.059 --> 00:12:17.740
unmasking that I express in the workbook, you
00:12:17.740 --> 00:12:20.779
know, and the first step is kind of like just
00:12:20.779 --> 00:12:22.940
reflecting on who you are, because I feel like
00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:25.059
especially if you're an adult that's been diagnosed
00:12:25.059 --> 00:12:28.600
later in life, you forgot who you are. I know
00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:31.440
when I was in my 40s, I had been masking as like
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:37.259
this suburban housewife for a lot of years. And
00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:41.019
I like I. forgot who I was underneath everything.
00:12:41.259 --> 00:12:45.259
So For me, the first step is just getting to
00:12:45.259 --> 00:12:47.200
know yourself again, remembering the things that
00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:50.580
you actually like, remembering the things that
00:12:50.580 --> 00:12:53.700
you don't like, learning to say no and set boundaries.
00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:56.980
And then after you do that kind of step of figuring
00:12:56.980 --> 00:12:59.639
out who you are authentically, which sometimes
00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.279
can take a long time depending on how deeply
00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.220
you've masked, the next step is to kind of decide
00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:08.360
how you want to unmask because it's never good
00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.929
to just like... Hi, I'm, you know, I was this
00:13:11.929 --> 00:13:15.629
really normal person, you know, and now I'm just
00:13:15.629 --> 00:13:20.990
this complete weirdo. So, because then you might
00:13:20.990 --> 00:13:23.690
lose your job or, you know, the structures that
00:13:23.690 --> 00:13:27.429
you need to support you. So usually we set a
00:13:27.429 --> 00:13:29.830
plan for unmasking, like who is your safe person
00:13:29.830 --> 00:13:32.409
to begin unmasking with? Where are the safe places?
00:13:33.710 --> 00:13:36.850
You know, the goal is always to because unmasking
00:13:36.850 --> 00:13:39.269
or masking has been linked directly to suicide
00:13:39.269 --> 00:13:42.389
rates and depression in autistic people. I'm
00:13:42.389 --> 00:13:44.570
sure you've seen that. Right. So the goal is
00:13:44.570 --> 00:13:47.870
always, you know, to prevent suicide and alleviate
00:13:47.870 --> 00:13:52.370
depression, to unmask as much as possible. But
00:13:52.370 --> 00:13:54.169
you have to do it in the safest way possible,
00:13:54.309 --> 00:13:59.509
if that makes sense. It does. Yeah. Can you talk
00:13:59.509 --> 00:14:00.929
a bit about some of the costs of unmasking? Like
00:14:00.929 --> 00:14:03.129
you mentioned, you know, the high rates of depression
00:14:03.129 --> 00:14:06.389
and suicide for people who are masking. But once
00:14:06.389 --> 00:14:08.350
you start unmasking, that can also have impacts,
00:14:08.789 --> 00:14:10.690
like you're saying, with losing your job and
00:14:10.690 --> 00:14:12.029
that sort of thing. So can you talk a bit more
00:14:12.029 --> 00:14:14.639
about that? I mean, it definitely has a real
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:16.639
impact. You know, you certainly the first thing
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.720
you get when you start unmasking and I think
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:21.960
you unmask to maybe so you get this is like people
00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.019
are like, you know, you're a completely different
00:14:24.019 --> 00:14:26.500
person now. And they, you know, people that you
00:14:26.500 --> 00:14:28.519
were close to are suddenly calling you out on
00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:31.399
like how different you are and how you're not
00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:34.940
yourself anymore. And you will lose friends and
00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:37.120
people you care about. And, you know, I certainly
00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:41.120
I've lost family members, siblings. You know,
00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.879
and there are friends, almost every friend I
00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:47.799
had before I unmasked, I don't talk to anymore.
00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:51.620
Oh, that's tough. So, you know, it's a high cost,
00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:54.139
you know, and then with my clients, I've known
00:14:54.139 --> 00:14:57.820
a lot of clients that have lost jobs. And, you
00:14:57.820 --> 00:14:59.820
know, that's even more profound than just losing
00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:02.399
friends and family members. You know, the good
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.460
part on the other end is that, you know, you
00:15:05.460 --> 00:15:08.139
build communities that love you for who you are,
00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:12.580
which is. the best life possible right like you've
00:15:12.580 --> 00:15:15.179
built with your with your group yeah yeah so
00:15:15.179 --> 00:15:17.419
and you know most of my friends now are autistic
00:15:17.419 --> 00:15:20.940
and you know so I'm surrounded by like autistic
00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:24.659
people who accept me as I am and you know that's
00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:26.879
the end goal but you do lose a lot along the
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:29.720
way and it's hard yeah yeah it's very fair I
00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:32.610
think for me personally I was very withdrawn
00:15:32.610 --> 00:15:34.429
before i learned i was autistic you know i was
00:15:34.429 --> 00:15:36.250
just kind of i couldn't figure out how to fit
00:15:36.250 --> 00:15:38.450
into social systems so i just didn't it doesn't
00:15:38.450 --> 00:15:40.309
try to like go out and make friends or that sort
00:15:40.309 --> 00:15:41.830
of thing and i think it was only until after
00:15:41.830 --> 00:15:44.529
i realized like oh this is this this explains
00:15:44.529 --> 00:15:46.269
who i am that's that's what i was able to learn
00:15:46.269 --> 00:15:48.230
and learn more and go out and be like okay this
00:15:48.230 --> 00:15:51.190
is who i am here's it's okay to just be uncomfortable,
00:15:52.490 --> 00:15:55.230
like loud settings or need introvert time or
00:15:55.230 --> 00:15:57.090
that sort of thing. I think it was really more,
00:15:57.250 --> 00:15:58.809
The Unmasked was really more about like just
00:15:58.809 --> 00:16:01.210
accepting who I already was and what I already
00:16:01.210 --> 00:16:04.389
was comfortable with. And I think that was definitely
00:16:04.389 --> 00:16:07.169
its own kind of journey of realizing like, oh,
00:16:07.230 --> 00:16:09.990
it's okay to be different and it's okay to want
00:16:09.990 --> 00:16:11.610
different things from what like the majority
00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:14.350
want, right? And so that's definitely its own
00:16:14.350 --> 00:16:17.519
kind of journey there. Yeah. And that's really
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.000
important, right? To be able to set boundaries
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:23.039
around your needs, right? Like, yeah, to be able
00:16:23.039 --> 00:16:26.139
to self -advocate. Yeah. Yeah. And now that's
00:16:26.139 --> 00:16:28.620
a bit of self -advocacy. What are some ways that,
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:30.279
you know, let's say you're unmasking and people
00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:32.700
are like, oh, hey, it used to be used to be more
00:16:32.700 --> 00:16:34.799
fun or used to be different or used to be some
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:36.539
other way. What are some ways to kind of enforce
00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:38.320
those boundaries and say, like, no, this is this
00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.620
is who I am. This is how I'm comfortable. And
00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:43.830
explain that to people. Well, I mean, for me,
00:16:43.830 --> 00:16:46.850
because I was so high masking and I feel like
00:16:46.850 --> 00:16:49.129
a lot of people didn't believe me. You're like,
00:16:49.230 --> 00:16:52.110
oh, you're not autistic. I got that a lot. So,
00:16:52.210 --> 00:16:55.669
you know, I literally would carry around this
00:16:55.669 --> 00:16:59.669
page from Sarah Hendricks books called Women
00:16:59.669 --> 00:17:01.830
and Girls with Autism Spectrum Disorder, where
00:17:01.830 --> 00:17:04.089
it's where the quote and I can't even remember
00:17:04.089 --> 00:17:06.150
the quote anymore, where it said something like,
00:17:06.250 --> 00:17:09.720
you know, all, you know. All women will be rejected
00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:12.400
when they first unmask because most women are,
00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:14.759
you know, and I would just like hand it to them.
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:16.900
Oh, interesting. Whenever they said that, because
00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:19.740
I didn't want to argue with them. Now when people
00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:22.579
start complaining to me about how they don't
00:17:22.579 --> 00:17:25.319
think I'm autistic, I usually just kind of walk
00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.380
away because I feel like it's not worth the stress.
00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:30.059
Don't even engage. Yeah. I don't engage anymore.
00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:32.640
Yeah. If people want to learn more about you
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:35.599
or your work, where should they go? I have a
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:37.359
website I've been working on that's just about
00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:38.900
me where they could learn about like all the
00:17:38.900 --> 00:17:41.240
things I'm doing because I'm trying to put together
00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.619
like I want to say a world of resources for autistic
00:17:44.619 --> 00:17:47.180
people, you know, with the nonprofit and the
00:17:47.180 --> 00:17:50.440
counseling mental health end and the app. And
00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:52.799
the app has a lot of tools like it also has like
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:55.299
a neurotypical translator, because that's one
00:17:55.299 --> 00:17:57.299
thing a lot of people have said that they just
00:17:57.299 --> 00:17:59.740
literally don't understand what neurotypical
00:17:59.740 --> 00:18:03.299
people are talking about half the time. So, yeah,
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:05.299
actually, yeah. And I did want to ask more about
00:18:05.299 --> 00:18:07.220
your app. Can you tell me more about about the
00:18:07.220 --> 00:18:08.559
app? Like what got you started to making the
00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:10.420
app and some of those neurotypical phrases? I'd
00:18:10.420 --> 00:18:12.460
love to hear some of those, too. Well, I mean,
00:18:12.460 --> 00:18:14.319
it really was just like because I spend all my
00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:16.480
time now, like trying to come up with solutions
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:19.980
for autistic living. Right. Because my my go
00:18:19.980 --> 00:18:23.940
to analogy for autism is that we are there's
00:18:23.940 --> 00:18:25.980
a book called Stellaluna. It's a children's book.
00:18:26.019 --> 00:18:29.400
Have you ever read it? I haven't. So it's a story
00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:31.559
of like this little fruit bat that's mom gets
00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:34.619
attacked by an owl and the baby fruit bat falls
00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:37.779
in a mama's bird's nest. And the mama bird is
00:18:37.779 --> 00:18:41.140
like a really great bird and decides, you know,
00:18:41.140 --> 00:18:43.539
she's going to raise this baby thing that she
00:18:43.539 --> 00:18:45.440
doesn't know what it is, but she assumes it's
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.140
some kind of bird to be a bird. And, you know,
00:18:48.140 --> 00:18:50.539
so she's. really well -meaning and loving but
00:18:50.539 --> 00:18:53.119
she's like force feeding the fruit bat bugs and
00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:55.299
trying to teach it to perch upright and getting
00:18:55.299 --> 00:18:57.500
mad at it because it wants to be up all night
00:18:57.500 --> 00:19:00.240
and sleep all day and no matter and the fruit
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.599
bat's trying to make mama bird happy because
00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:05.519
you know it loves mama bird so it's trying so
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.240
hard to do all these things and no matter how
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:10.460
hard it tries it can't do anything right That's
00:19:10.460 --> 00:19:12.319
interesting. Yeah. And then, you know, of course,
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:14.279
the fruit bat goes on a journey and falls out
00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:16.440
of the nest and finds other fruit bats and realizes
00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:19.000
that it was never a broken bird. It was just
00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:20.960
a fruit bat trying to live in a bird's world.
00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:24.220
So that's always my analogy for autism. We're
00:19:24.220 --> 00:19:27.160
not broken birds. We're fruit bats. And we're
00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:29.220
just trying to figure out how to live in a bird's
00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:32.250
world. So the inspiration for the app was like
00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:35.210
to put tools together for living in a bird's
00:19:35.210 --> 00:19:37.809
world. That's the analogy, right? Like, wow.
00:19:38.089 --> 00:19:41.329
Yeah. So, you know, a translator so that you
00:19:41.329 --> 00:19:43.509
can understand what the neurotypicals are saying.
00:19:43.670 --> 00:19:46.029
One thing I have in there now is a red flag meter
00:19:46.029 --> 00:19:49.849
because like 66 % of autistic people have PTSD
00:19:49.849 --> 00:19:53.069
because we don't see red flags and neurotypicals
00:19:53.069 --> 00:19:54.970
when they're predatory and stuff. So we end up
00:19:54.970 --> 00:19:58.019
in a lot of. dangerous interpersonal relationships
00:19:58.019 --> 00:20:01.299
where we get hurt and broken. So, you know, there's
00:20:01.299 --> 00:20:03.279
a little place where if you think that somebody
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.160
might be doing something creepy, you can kind
00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:07.960
of type it in and they'll say, yes, this is creepy.
00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.619
Avoid this person, you know, spend less time
00:20:11.619 --> 00:20:14.759
with this person. They could be predatory. And
00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:16.819
then there's the neurotypical translator. And
00:20:16.819 --> 00:20:18.660
then there's like a bunch of quizzes and stuff
00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:22.619
that help you track like your mood, your sensory
00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:26.889
overwhelm. So you can predict like burnout, and
00:20:26.889 --> 00:20:30.309
meltdowns and prevent autistic shutdown and meltdowns
00:20:30.309 --> 00:20:33.049
by tracking things better. And then I just put
00:20:33.049 --> 00:20:34.910
a bunch of quizzes in because I feel like quizzes
00:20:34.910 --> 00:20:37.069
are fun and everybody enjoys those. Like what
00:20:37.069 --> 00:20:40.789
type of autistic am I? Things like that. Yeah.
00:20:40.849 --> 00:20:43.490
So I'm just trying to build like a toolbox and
00:20:43.490 --> 00:20:46.809
yeah, it's called Glimmer Nest and the toolbox
00:20:46.809 --> 00:20:50.309
is, yeah. So fruit bats can live in a bird's
00:20:50.309 --> 00:20:53.250
world. Wow. And is this like an app that's available
00:20:53.250 --> 00:20:56.410
on like iOS and Android? It's available on iOS
00:20:56.410 --> 00:20:58.569
now and I'm uploading it to Android hopefully
00:20:58.569 --> 00:21:00.990
this week. Yeah. So it should be available on
00:21:00.990 --> 00:21:04.690
both. Yeah. So, and I keep adding things to it.
00:21:04.710 --> 00:21:07.549
So yeah. And I guess that is my hyper fixation
00:21:07.549 --> 00:21:10.529
right now is doing this and, you know, cause
00:21:10.529 --> 00:21:14.289
my hope is that I, with enough tools, I a hundred
00:21:14.289 --> 00:21:16.369
percent believe that autistic people are the
00:21:16.369 --> 00:21:20.769
most awesome people in the world. And yeah. we
00:21:20.769 --> 00:21:24.630
can thrive. Yeah, no, I totally, totally get
00:21:24.630 --> 00:21:26.390
it. That app sounds super useful. Definitely
00:21:26.390 --> 00:21:27.930
put a link in the show notes and check it out
00:21:27.930 --> 00:21:30.190
myself as well. And you've done a lot of great
00:21:30.190 --> 00:21:31.829
work for helping autistic people thrive with
00:21:31.829 --> 00:21:33.329
your, with your group, with the app. It sounds
00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:35.329
like, but even I didn't mention your, your, your
00:21:35.329 --> 00:21:36.710
books as well. Cause you've written books about
00:21:36.710 --> 00:21:39.230
like, women and that sort of thing. Right. Well,
00:21:39.309 --> 00:21:41.329
actually I wrote the books before I knew I was
00:21:41.329 --> 00:21:43.390
autistic. And it's funny because all the books
00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:46.400
have like the same theme. They're like, a woman
00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.500
who discovers who never fits in never belongs
00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:52.200
everybody kind of dislikes her and then halfway
00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:54.920
through her life she discovers she's like a witch
00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:59.200
or a you know otherworldly being of some sort
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:01.619
and i realized at some point that all these books
00:22:01.619 --> 00:22:05.880
were just about like my experience of being an
00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:08.880
autistic woman and then discovering you know
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.680
that there's some magic in the thing that makes
00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.539
you different and they weren't meant to be about
00:22:14.539 --> 00:22:16.980
that but After I was diagnosed, I'm like, oh,
00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:20.000
yeah, that's what they're all about. Right. And
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.299
you look back, do those characters, like the
00:22:22.299 --> 00:22:23.880
main characters, do you think like they are autistic,
00:22:24.059 --> 00:22:25.559
like looking back at the way you wrote them?
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:27.400
Oh, yeah, because they're all these characters
00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:29.839
that just, you know, they don't know how to interact
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:32.880
with normal humans. The normal human world is
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.720
just confusing to them. They don't have any friends
00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.799
because they're so weird. They get bullied. And
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.619
then, you know, halfway through the book, they
00:22:41.619 --> 00:22:44.380
find that there's an answer. to this. This is
00:22:44.380 --> 00:22:47.799
why I'm so weird and nobody likes me. And then
00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.160
doors open and they can find a pathway to finding
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:54.220
happiness once they figure it out. Awesome. That's
00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:56.579
amazing. Before you even realized you're artistic,
00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:58.619
you were writing about these stories about discovering
00:22:58.619 --> 00:23:00.740
who you are and then coming to terms with that.
00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:02.640
Sounds great. Yeah. I mean, I always knew I was
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:04.920
weird and people didn't like me. I just didn't
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.299
know why. It's exactly how I described my own
00:23:08.299 --> 00:23:09.740
autism. Like I always knew I was a weird, I always
00:23:09.740 --> 00:23:11.259
knew it was different, but I just didn't have
00:23:11.259 --> 00:23:13.700
a word for our explanation until I learned about
00:23:13.700 --> 00:23:15.819
autism. I think that that's definitely a common
00:23:15.819 --> 00:23:19.140
theme. Yeah. Awesome. Oh, yeah. Oh, if you want
00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:21.640
to learn more about me, my website right now
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:26.779
is JessicaPenot .me. There's a long story about
00:23:26.779 --> 00:23:29.299
why I got the me ending. But you can also go
00:23:29.299 --> 00:23:34.579
to www .NARC to learn about like our if you guys
00:23:34.579 --> 00:23:37.119
if anybody out there needs free services. Like
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:39.339
I said, we can only do counseling in the state
00:23:39.339 --> 00:23:41.900
of Alabama until the interstate counselor compact
00:23:41.900 --> 00:23:44.059
passes and then we'll be able to open the door
00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:46.339
to people in other states through telehealth.
00:23:46.650 --> 00:23:49.369
But everybody is welcome to use, you know, like
00:23:49.369 --> 00:23:51.650
our free groups and online services if they want.
00:23:52.910 --> 00:23:54.869
And now it's time for the special interest spotlight.
00:23:55.170 --> 00:23:56.849
We learn about our guest's special interest.
00:23:58.509 --> 00:24:00.809
You know, as I unmask, one of the biggest parts
00:24:00.809 --> 00:24:04.339
of unmasking for me was like. I had hidden a
00:24:04.339 --> 00:24:07.759
lot of my passions and things I loved, or I didn't
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.079
engage in them as much as I wanted to because
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.799
they're weird. And apparently middle -aged women
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:14.799
aren't supposed to enjoy the things that I enjoy.
00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:19.480
Oh yeah. So as I unmasked, I like kind of lost
00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:21.779
myself in all my crazy hyper fixations again.
00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.019
And so your last question was on the list. Yeah.
00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:28.579
Yeah. So I brought some of my hyper fixations.
00:24:29.220 --> 00:24:31.619
Oh, cool. I'll see them. Yeah. Okay. This is
00:24:31.619 --> 00:24:34.960
my current one. This is Dungeon Crawler Carl.
00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:38.480
Oh, I read that book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm on
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:41.859
book three now. And this is like, I love books.
00:24:42.019 --> 00:24:44.259
That's my biggest hyper fixation, but this is
00:24:44.259 --> 00:24:47.500
my hyper fixation book of the moment. Like everything
00:24:47.500 --> 00:24:51.099
is Dungeon Crawler Carl right now. Yeah. So yeah,
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.380
totally get it. Yeah. My other biggest lifelong
00:24:54.380 --> 00:24:58.279
hyper fixation is Magic the Gathering. Oh, interesting.
00:24:58.380 --> 00:25:00.910
Yeah. I don't know if you guys know what that
00:25:00.910 --> 00:25:03.809
is, but it's like a really pedantic card game
00:25:03.809 --> 00:25:06.670
with a lot of rules and really pretty art. And,
00:25:06.670 --> 00:25:09.009
you know, like all my life, all I wanted to do
00:25:09.009 --> 00:25:11.890
was like obsessively play this game. But, you
00:25:11.890 --> 00:25:16.289
know, middle, you know, women with kids in suburbia
00:25:16.289 --> 00:25:18.130
don't usually even know what it is, let alone
00:25:18.130 --> 00:25:21.130
play it. So it's not the typical type of player
00:25:21.130 --> 00:25:23.029
you think of when you think of a Magic the Gathering
00:25:23.029 --> 00:25:25.890
player. But no, it's great that you can you can
00:25:25.890 --> 00:25:28.440
you can experience that. Yeah, it sounds like
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:30.339
a lot of fun. I've had people try and get me
00:25:30.339 --> 00:25:32.160
into magic before, but it just seems really complicated.
00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:35.920
There's a lot of cards, a lot of rules to learn.
00:25:36.140 --> 00:25:38.079
But it seems just super fun from all the people
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:40.579
that have played it and recommended it. Yeah,
00:25:40.579 --> 00:25:42.960
yeah. I mean, I think that it takes a certain
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.660
kind of autistic person. I feel like a lot of
00:25:45.660 --> 00:25:47.539
the people who play it are autistic because it's
00:25:47.539 --> 00:25:50.970
like... you know, a lot of math, a lot of really,
00:25:51.089 --> 00:25:53.609
really specific rules memorization. And I feel
00:25:53.609 --> 00:25:56.210
like normal people just don't enjoy like memorizing
00:25:56.210 --> 00:25:59.410
obscure, unimportant rules in their spare time.
00:25:59.950 --> 00:26:02.569
It wouldn't surprise me if most of the magic
00:26:02.569 --> 00:26:05.450
players were autistic or are neurodiverse in
00:26:05.450 --> 00:26:08.309
some way. So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
00:26:08.569 --> 00:26:12.450
So, yeah. So those are my two favorite things
00:26:12.450 --> 00:26:16.349
right now. Awesome. Glad to hear it. Awesome.
00:26:16.490 --> 00:26:18.539
Thank you so much for joining. Okay. Thanks.
00:26:19.779 --> 00:26:21.680
I really enjoyed the discussion with Jessica,
00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:23.900
especially when we talked about how her earlier
00:26:23.900 --> 00:26:26.359
books featured autistic protagonists, even before
00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:28.680
Jessica herself realized she was autistic. I
00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:29.920
think it's a really interesting sign about how
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:31.700
something you work on today could, you know,
00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:34.740
in 10 or 20 years, be recontextualized and reflect
00:26:34.740 --> 00:26:36.700
the sign of you that you may not even realize
00:26:36.700 --> 00:26:39.319
currently. So I hope that all of you who are
00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:41.259
working on creative or artistic pursuits right
00:26:41.259 --> 00:26:44.119
now, I hope you take that as a sign to just let
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:46.049
yourself be reflected in your art. You know,
00:26:46.049 --> 00:26:47.589
you never know how it's going to be recontextualized
00:26:47.589 --> 00:26:49.710
later on. You never know what things you're saying
00:26:49.710 --> 00:26:53.190
now could, you know, in 10 or 20 years be a signal
00:26:53.190 --> 00:26:55.009
of something that, you know, is a part of you
00:26:55.009 --> 00:26:56.069
that maybe you don't necessarily realize right
00:26:56.069 --> 00:26:59.230
now. But I think that was a really special realization
00:26:59.230 --> 00:27:03.450
for Jessica. And I hope that you can learn from
00:27:03.450 --> 00:27:06.049
that as well. Here, this makes follow -up questions.
00:27:06.750 --> 00:27:08.970
First of all, what's one passion you've hidden
00:27:08.970 --> 00:27:11.430
away that you want to bring back? I really like
00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:13.670
Jessica talking about Magic the Gathering, which
00:27:13.670 --> 00:27:15.730
I've almost exclusively only seen nerdy dudes
00:27:15.730 --> 00:27:17.970
talk about. So it's very interesting and a good
00:27:17.970 --> 00:27:20.329
reminder that, you know, the game has a lot of
00:27:20.329 --> 00:27:22.950
appeal to a lot of other people who may not be
00:27:22.950 --> 00:27:26.369
your stereotypical card game players. And if
00:27:26.369 --> 00:27:28.150
you've hidden a passion away because you don't
00:27:28.150 --> 00:27:29.910
think you fit the stereotype or you don't think
00:27:29.910 --> 00:27:32.009
you're the type of person who should like a certain
00:27:32.009 --> 00:27:33.710
sort of thing, you know, go ahead and bring it
00:27:33.710 --> 00:27:35.690
back. Just let yourself experience your passions
00:27:35.690 --> 00:27:39.740
and enjoy life. Secondly... What are some activities
00:27:39.740 --> 00:27:41.299
you can do to build connection with other people?
00:27:41.619 --> 00:27:43.839
I like how Jessica's groups have, you know, crafting,
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.559
board games, tabletop games, a Discord group,
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:48.599
you know, a lot of different variety of things
00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:50.180
you could do and ways you can connect people.
00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:52.880
I think it's a good way to remember that, you
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:54.960
know, one type of connection isn't the end -all
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:56.660
be -all. There are other ways of connecting and
00:27:56.660 --> 00:27:58.819
other ways you can, you know, build rapport with
00:27:58.819 --> 00:28:01.559
other people. And finally... Can you think of
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:03.940
a neuroaffirming place near you? Just because
00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:05.900
app Glimmer Nest can help you find neuroaffirming
00:28:05.900 --> 00:28:07.960
places, but I think it can also help to think
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:09.640
through, you know, what are some places you've
00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:12.440
been through nearby that are, that really feel
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:14.680
supportive as a neurodivergent person? You know,
00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:17.059
do they have quiet hours? Do they have, you know,
00:28:17.059 --> 00:28:19.940
low lighting or dim lighting? Just thinking through
00:28:19.940 --> 00:28:22.039
those things can help you identify which places
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:24.619
feel safe as a neurodivergent person. And then
00:28:24.619 --> 00:28:26.420
being able to share them, either just sharing
00:28:26.420 --> 00:28:27.680
them with your friends or sharing them on the
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.509
app Glimmer Nest. can be a good way to help build
00:28:30.509 --> 00:28:32.569
up community nearby and help other neoliberal
00:28:32.569 --> 00:28:36.049
people near you identify safe places to be. That's
00:28:36.049 --> 00:28:38.349
all for this week. Thanks for listening. I'd
00:28:38.349 --> 00:28:39.710
love to hear from you if any of these questions
00:28:39.710 --> 00:28:41.569
resonated, if you took away anything good from
00:28:41.569 --> 00:28:43.470
the interview, or if you were able to check out
00:28:43.470 --> 00:28:45.230
Jessica's app, Glimmer Nest. I'd love to hear
00:28:45.230 --> 00:28:47.509
your experiences. And if you found the episode
00:28:47.509 --> 00:28:49.569
useful, I'd love for you to share this episode
00:28:49.569 --> 00:28:51.950
with a friend or leave a review. Thanks, and
00:28:51.950 --> 00:28:54.509
I'll see you all next time. Hey, thanks for listening
00:28:54.509 --> 00:28:56.779
all the way to the end. You can find show notes
00:28:56.779 --> 00:28:59.940
at workingclassautistic .com. I hope you enjoyed
00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:02.140
this episode, and if you did, I would really
00:29:02.140 --> 00:29:04.000
appreciate it if you left a review in your podcast
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.519
app or shared the episode with a friend. This
00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:09.180
entire podcast is a one -man operation, so anything
00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:10.859
you can do to help promote would go a long way.
00:29:11.380 --> 00:29:12.299
See you next time.