Jacob Orr

WEBVTT
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This is the theater game.
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Tree or stolid.
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Tree or style.
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You may begin.
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Tree or stolid.
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Tree.
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Tree or a bicycle.
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Damn.
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Already off to a incredible story.
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I'm gonna say bicycle.
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Um for a couple reasons.
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Can are are these physical objects, or can this be like the feeling of being an animal?
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Maybe uh is it a noun or or is it you know?
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It could I take I I typically say noun, person, place, or thing.
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But it could it can be anything.
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Okay, but it's an un.
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You've just given it in a way that it's an.
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So you said bicycle.
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I did say bicycle.
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Bicycle.
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Well, I guess mine isn't it's technically I love that.
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No, no, no, no, no.
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Okay.
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It's a noun.
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Bicycle.
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I don't know why I question that.
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Do you know what the word is?
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I've actually forgotten.
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Bicycle or dog.
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Bicycle.
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Okay.
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That's huge.
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Yeah.
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So it's not an alive thing.
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Bicycle or education.
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I'm gonna say education.
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Okay.
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Education or a framed photo of your family.
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Um I don't know why I found that so funny.
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You know, you're a funny family.
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Uh I'm gonna stick with education.
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Okay.
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Education or your best friend.
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Not your best friend, but like the general.
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The idea of a best friend.
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Uh I'm still gonna say education.
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That's a real person I remembered as as soon as I said it.
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Uh education or uh your favorite song?
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Education.
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Okay.
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Education or uh the physical building of NYU Tish.
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Ooh, the physical building of NYU Tish.
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The physical building of NYU Tish or the fifth floor.
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I'll say the fifth floor.
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Okay, we're honing in.
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Uh the fifth floor or the two lockers that we shared that were right next to each other when we were both going NYU.
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Oh my god.
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Oh, it's not that, but fifth floor.
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Okay.
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Um, I'll say fifth floor still.
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Okay.
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Uh see, there's so much interpretation.
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Exactly.
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The fifth floor or a torture chamber.
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Hmm.
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Depends on how you see it.
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I was gonna say not dissimilar to something.
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I'm gonna say fifth floor still.
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Okay.
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Um not dissimilar.
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Okay, so it's probably art based.
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So education, uh, a Broadway play.
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And or a Broadway play.
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Fifth floor.
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Okay.
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Fifth floor or a black box theater.
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I'm gonna give it to you.
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Is that it?
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It's theater.
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Okay.
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Black box theater.
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Okay, but there you go.
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You said it.
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I love it.
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He did it, everybody.
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I'm really good at this game.
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Yeah.
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We should just do this in the next step.
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Welcome to Working Class Acts.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Working Class Acts podcast.
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I'm your host John Medalone.
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I am joined today by such a sweet, lovely, talented human being.
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He stands at six foot four.
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He is a cook.
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He is an actor, he is a lover of the arts.
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He was in the play Punch last year at MTC.
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He is an alum of the NYU grad acting program, and that is where we met.
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I'm here with Jacob Orr.
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Hi, John.
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Hey, buddy.
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It's good to see you.
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It's good to see you too.
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For real.
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We saw each other last year for uh that was last year, right?
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A reading?
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Oh, was that last year?
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No.
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I think it was.
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Might have been two years ago.
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Was it really?
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I know.
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Jesus.
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But it was for, yeah, a reading of a new play.
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Um, and there was a lot of NYU.
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Yeah, a lot of NY.
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It was a lot of people.
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It was like 20 people or something.
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No, not 20 people, maybe 15.
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But it was a lot of people.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But it's good to see you.
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Good to see you too.
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Well, you were just out of town for another job, weren't you?
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Recently?
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I was outside Philly at this theater I've worked at called People's Light a few times doing 12th night.
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People's Light, 12th night.
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Exactly.
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And if you want a full circle moment, please.
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I was playing Sir Andrew, obviously.
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Agu cheek.
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And that's the first role I ever played as an actor, my freshman year of high school.
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Really?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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Wait, take us back.
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Take us back.
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You were born.
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Oh, I didn't say this before.
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You were born in Oregon.
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Portland, Oregon.
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Portland, Oregon.
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Yeah.
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Did you like Portland?
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I love Portland.
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Yeah.
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I it's funny, I I think I never felt that much like an Oregonian living there because I wasn't kind of as crunchy and nature-y as people I grew up around.
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But then moving to New York nine years ago, like the Oregon in me was like a good one.
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So now I'm incredibly Oregonian.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Um, and when I go home, it's like just the best.
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Yeah.
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I was gonna say, it didn't, I I don't recall you being from Oregon.
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So when you said that, I was like, is that true?
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No, yeah.
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Like, like, like I wasn't like smoking weed, I wasn't like wearing Birkin stocks and stuff.
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Now I'm doing uh both of those things, but you know, at the time, no.
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Um but yeah, yeah.
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I love it, I love it.
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Uh so when did you catch the proverbial bug, as it were?
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For acting.
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When did you start yeah, for acting?
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Um, I was a dancer as a kid.
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Oh, really?
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Yeah.
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I went to uh an arts school as a as a young, young kid, and they had uh an incredible program.
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There's this amazing teacher named Keith Goodman, who unfortunately has passed away.
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Um, and he ran a program called Boys Dance.
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Boys Dance.
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So for like first through fifth graders, it was an after-school program where it was an all-boys dance class kind of company.
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Um, and I just really loved it.
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I think I was a very energetic child, and so I'm sure it was good to kind of move my body a lot.
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Um, but I I was a dancer, and then I went to a middle school where instead of PE, we had dance.
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It was called Da Vinci Arts Middle School.
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You could choose PE or dance.
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Oh, there's j- Oh, there you go.
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And where I met Art Leah Zimmer, who was in my class.
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We met when we were in middle school.
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What?
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Insane.
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Um, but so I was a dancer.
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I mean, that's what I did was I was a dancer.
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Yeah.
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And then I got to high school and I still danced a little, but around 14 is when the decision becomes, are you gonna dance or are you gonna stop?
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Like there's no, it's not like that casually.
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It's just that's it.
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Um and I decided to stop.
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Was there a reason?
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Like, did you feel like you're you you had uh inspiration to go and try other arts, or was it just like So I always give my brother credit.
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My brother found acting when my brother's four years older, and we went to the same high school, not at the same time he graduated, but he had done theater in middle school.
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Yeah, he that's how he found it.
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And so the theater department at my high school was you know a not a super affluent high school, but just like a very dedicated, cool theater department, a great teacher.
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Um, and so I I think yeah, I there wasn't a dance program or anything at the school, and I also think I was starting to grow wary of like the kind of expressionlessness I felt like I was seeing in dance.
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Yeah, I'm now dating a dancer, yeah, and I know that that is not true, but I think 14 year old You were just doing it wrong.
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Right.
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I was doing that.
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Um but I think 14-year-old me, I think like I was yearning for a bit more storytelling, is probably um, and so I it was I got to high school, had taken a couple of dance classes with my old teachers, and then just thought, I don't know anymore.
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Yeah, but my brother had loved the theater department, and it was fun, you know, going, I had grown up watching him do plays at this high school.
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So the the like juniors and seniors, I was like, you're gods.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I saw you when I was 12.
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Yeah.
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Um and I was 12.
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You're like 30.
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Um, but I was too afraid to audition.
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So the first thing I ever did with theater was I ran crew, which I like, I I think is a very informative part of who I am as an artist.
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Yeah.
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Truly.
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Oh, definitely.
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That that I started doing this from the backstage side.
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I then quickly started acting, and then that was kind of that was the bug was 12th night and playing Sir Andrew.
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But wow, I think that Patton Oswald always talks about finding stand-up first because he loved the hang.
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And like I think there is truth in that for me that like I just fell in love with the people and the community and the group and the camaraderie, and and then I just I love that as a concept.
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You love the hang.
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That's so true.
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Like, there is a that just like brought me back to high school.
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You've been saying that, like, all the times you're just like hanging out with friends between like rehearsing or not or not.
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Seminal life events that happen to me in the theater room.
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Yeah, like both uh PG and R-rated, you know what I mean?
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Like, so my whole life was doing that.
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Totally.
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And like, I think healthily my life now is a lot of things.
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It's not just that, but I do think that like I say this a lot that like every time I'm doing a professional show, I have a moment, and then usually happens a lot, but I have a moment where I'm like, I'm getting away with something.
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Like, they're paying me to do they don't they know I'm gonna do that.
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Oh, I have that moment.
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I don't I don't think about it in that way, but I I remember this one moment I did like this was years ago.
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I did a Panera Bread commercial.
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Hey, Panera Bread.
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If you want to hire me again, I'll eat that mac and cheese all day.
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Would you?
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I mean, I'm a Panera hater, I have to say.
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I don't want it anymore after that shoot because I ate so goddamn much of it.
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Sorry, Panera Bread.
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I am sorry.
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This was years ago, so I can say this.
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Yeah.
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Um but I do remember it was like a fun little uh it was a fun shoot because it was like kind of Wes Anderson-y in that it was like it was very like um choreographed and like very like profiled shots and stuff like that, and like very specific.
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And I just remember there was a moment where like I'm laying in a fake bed.
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A fake bed.
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It was a real bed.
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Right.
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Not in the room, but yes.
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And I remember just laying there looking up at the lights and going, God, I'm the luckiest motherfucker in the world.
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What are we doing?
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What are we?
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I'm getting paid a lot of money today to just act up goof brawl.
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I I have a the a guy who I just did 12th night with who I've worked with a bunch, Kevin Bergen, who's a great thilly actor, wonderful guy.
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He he I will always I never forget he always, you know, tech is hard, things get rough, yeah, people's moods get whatever.
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And and the moments I've seen Kevin get frustrated, he'll then look in the mirror and he'll go, This beat's working at Walmart.
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And then that will like save him.
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I have to tell myself that every time I'm in my my voiceover booth when I'm doing an audiobook and I'm feeling like just lethargic or whatever, I'm like, this is better than catering.
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Yeah.
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Hey, you're talking to somebody who caters.
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So my main side dude.
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That's one of mine as well.
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And I'm like, I'm slowly inching out of it.
00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:01.519
Okay.
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Slowly with some of these audio.
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I I I booked five audiobooks this month.
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So I was like feeling good about it and the momentum.
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But that's great.
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But yeah, it's it's like you like this more than the other stuff.
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Right, right now.
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But that's important, especially.
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It is an important thing.
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Because it is also a job at the end of the day, too.
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And and I think that like the more successful you get, and success, I think, for an actor especially, like, it's so vitally important that you define what success is for you.
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Because the world's gonna tell you it's fame and money.
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And like for very few of us is that the case.
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But like, if success means, which I think it can mean, like like we were talking about earlier, like m a lot of your nut, as it were, being through Excuse me?
00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:47.120
Sorry, let me explain what that means.
00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.240
You're not meaning you're you're gross, your income.
00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:51.759
Um my nut.
00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:56.559
If if success means you're making most of your money doing it.
00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:56.879
Yes.
00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:00.000
Rather than doing some sidekick, you're nut, as it were.
00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:05.840
Um You are so from Portland, you disgusting monster.
00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:14.399
But but but like it can be easy to lose sight of that when like the irony being, the more you're doing it, the more it can feel normal.
00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:14.799
Yeah.
00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:17.759
Like that is both natural and good, I think.
00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:18.639
I think so.
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:24.879
And I think it's important to like re have ways to like rejuvenate that excitement in yourself.
00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:25.039
Yeah.
00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:30.399
Of like, I'm doing this because I got the bug when I was 15.
00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:30.720
Yeah.
00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:35.039
And I like the idea of doing something else to me is like cuckoo bananas.
00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:37.840
I can't think of anything else I would rather do.
00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:39.759
And there's stuff I would love to do.
00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:53.759
I I have many interests, I'd love to do a lot of things, but like I I feel like every year I'm 30 now, and every year that I, you know, every year I I feel like more people I know totally naturally are start having priorities above doing this.
00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:54.000
Yeah.
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.919
Whether it's financial stability or the ability to, you know, all this kind of stuff.
00:12:58.000 --> 00:12:59.440
And and I always check in with myself.
00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:01.120
I'm like, okay, is that true for you now?
00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.399
And every year so far, then like, nah, I just want to keep doing this.
00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:04.720
Yeah.
00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:04.960
Yeah.
00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:06.000
And being poor.
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:07.759
No, I dude, I'm the same way.
00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:10.159
I'm like, if I'm gonna get rich, it's gonna be doing this.
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:10.879
Yeah, why not?
00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:12.000
Why not?
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.399
It's like, would I rather do I've always work in tech?
00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:17.200
Work in tech.
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:18.720
No, thank you.
00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:36.960
I always think of that um there's a great Alfred Molina interview where he starts talking about his dad and he says, God, oh god, it's it's gonna get me choked up because he's talking about like he was working a job that he didn't like, but he was making a lot of money.
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:37.440
Sure.
00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:49.440
And then he was offered a role in a play that he really wanted to do, and was being offered some other promotion or something like that, and so he decided, he's like, I'm gonna do the play, and his dad was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing?
00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:51.679
He's like, I I want to do this play.
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:53.919
He's like, It's more hours, it's less pay.
00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:55.440
What why would you do that?
00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:55.840
Right.
00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:57.519
He's like, Because I love it.
00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:58.320
Right.
00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:02.480
And he was like, I don't think he ever got it.
00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:03.279
I understood that.
00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.759
And you could see it in the way it's look it up.
00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:08.879
You if just Alfred Molina, father video, you'll find it immediately.
00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:09.120
Right.
00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:11.279
Um, but it's very, very powerful and moving.
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:18.399
But it is this there is something in that that I think a lot of like artists uh grapple with.
00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:25.440
The notion of just like, I uh wealth is not enough for me to let go of the thing that I love.
00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:28.000
But it it is a hard every year that goes by, it's harder.
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:32.000
I mean, we are absolutely like neck deep in late stage capitalism.
00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:32.639
Oh my god.
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:34.559
You know, without getting too political.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:35.279
No, do it.
00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:36.399
I don't know.
00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:46.480
You know, in the podcast in the hellscape we're living in, you know, it is becoming it can be a harder and harder equation to to to be like, uh, how am I gonna survive?
00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:48.480
Especially in the city, which is so expensive.
00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:48.960
Yeah.
00:14:49.120 --> 00:15:02.720
Um, and like I I have a lot of gratitude, kind of in that same way, for my parents who are both teachers, and and I mean, my parents just the only messaging they've ever given me was like, just do what you want to do.
00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:05.279
Yeah, like it's just not worth it to do something else.
00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:05.440
Yeah.
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:21.519
And I think like seeing them, you know, I think that they love a lot of their job, and of course, like any job, there's stuff you don't love, but like they both love working with students, like in different ways, but that that is what brought them brings them joy.
00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:29.200
Um, and for me, it's like it is the collaboration of creating something and then sharing it with people.
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:37.039
Yeah, with people who choose to come and be a part of the community as well, which is like not an easy thing to like do.
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:47.279
Like that I think that's the hardest part of any theatrical endeavor is like just making sure that an audience shows up because that's where the money is, unfortunately.
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:49.519
You know, like Yes.
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.879
Uh uh Anne Washburn, do you know the player Anne Washburn?
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:53.440
Sure, Mr.
00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:53.919
Burns and stuff.
00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:55.679
She did this thing a couple years ago at Soho Burn.
00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:56.559
I love that play.
00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.000
Oh my god, you guys did such a fucking fantastic production of.
00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:03.919
You were so, so good in that, man.
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:04.480
So fun.
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:05.440
Thank you very much.
00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:18.639
Uh, she did this thing at Soho Rep when they were closing their space called Murder Room, which was basically this like interactive exhibit where you could come in and it was like her deconstruction of American theater about like where she thought it was going, what was the problem with it?
00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:20.159
It was really interesting, and she was there.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:31.039
Um, and so I remember chatting with her, and I said to her, I was like, Wow, I know so many actors, theater artists who have so much energy to do this, yeah.
00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:37.120
But we find it it it feels so hard to like get people together to create stuff.
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:39.440
And I was kind of asking her, you know, what are your thoughts?
00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:41.919
What are your and I really appreciated this.
00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:48.960
She was like, Well, it's really worth acknowledging that like 25 years ago, everyone's rent was$400.
00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:54.320
So you could work two shifts at a cafe and then spend the rest of your time doing shit for free.
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:54.720
Yep.
00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:56.320
Because you could afford that.
00:16:56.399 --> 00:17:09.279
And now not only, and this is what I feel all the time, not only do you have to work a lot to make your nut, um, not only do you have to do that, but like I feel really bad asking my friends to do stuff for free.
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:09.680
Yeah.
00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.480
Because I'm like, your time is worth so much now.
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:12.960
Yeah.
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:13.759
You know?
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:15.920
Um, so I totally hear what you're saying.
00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:23.200
I and I said that I at this talk back we were doing uh of this show I just did, which you know, very grateful to do it.
00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:27.519
It wasn't necessarily in every aspect my favorite production of a play.
00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:34.880
And and I remember saying to the director at some point, like when we were talking about a choice in a moment, I I said, my allegiance is to the audience, always.
00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:35.920
Yeah, always.
00:17:36.079 --> 00:17:46.480
And and we were doing a talk back, and someone asked something along those lines, and I remember saying, like, it has never been a more difficult proposition for people to spend their money to come see theater.
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:53.680
And so, like, the least I can do is sh give them everything I have when I'm out there.
00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:58.160
They're like spending money to come here, money that they worked really hard for.
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:06.319
Maybe they're spending even more with a baby or whatever, you know, kind of the stereotype, but like the best I can do is is make that worth their while.
00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:08.000
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah.
00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:26.319
It's interesting because when when you say that, like the people who are coming to the theater now, are I I my my mind immediately went to like the past couple years of like Broadway and where uh how it shifted a lot in who it's casting with celebrities, but also who the audience members are.
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:26.799
Right.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:37.119
Because I think producers do recognize which audiences have money and which don't, and how much that is affecting what gets produced, what doesn't get produced.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:19:04.880
We see a lot of I say this all the time, I'm a broken record about it, but I do think it is worth constantly bringing up because it sooner or later this is gonna break or stop or change in a way that's like if we're constantly producing things that only adhere to one generation that has money, like how are you setting up the future of theater for ne the next audiences if those audience members aren't afforded?
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:05.920
Can't afford to go see it.
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:15.920
I mean, I remember in in in Portland when I was every every kid got a free if you went to a public high school, you got a free bus pass on four years for the public bus system.
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:16.319
Wow.
00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:20.799
And I remember there was a lot of I mean, Portland is an incredibly white city.
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:27.200
I always joke Portland's a city where white families price black families out of their homes and then put a Black Lives Matter sign in their yard.
00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:28.079
Oh my god.
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:38.640
Um and there was a lot of talk right before I left about like, you know, they would do dream girls at the expense of theater where and it was just like they were like this is and it was nothing, you know what I mean?
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:40.720
It was still for the white audio, these older white folks.
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:45.759
And there was a lot of talk about how do we get black young black folks to come see theater.
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:55.759
And I I I certainly didn't come up with this, but someone was like, in the same way that you get a bus pass, if you're a public high school student, you should get a every high school student should get a free ticket.
00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:56.319
Absolutely.
00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:59.039
Just by having a and that's I think about the same with Broadway.
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:02.400
It's like you're not gonna lose money, these kids aren't gonna see it no matter what.
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:02.640
Yeah.
00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:08.079
So if you give it to them for free, that's not taking away money they're gonna spend on a Broadway show.
00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:16.400
But like, if you want to make, like you're saying, a new generation of theater makers and theater patrons, yeah, you have to get them in early.
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:16.799
Yeah.
00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:17.599
You know what I mean?
00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:23.680
And the great thing about New York is that there's so much incredible theater happening that isn't super expensive, yeah.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:29.279
Um, prohibitively expensive, but you know, Broadway's Broadway.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:31.599
Uh in the same way that Hollywood is Hollywood.
00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:38.960
Like, there's so many great small budget indie movies happening where there's huge wells of talent, but like people want to go to AMC.
00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:40.319
You know, they want to go sit down and look at it.
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:41.359
I go to AMC all the time.
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:42.079
I'm on A-list.
00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:43.680
But that's the thing.
00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:46.720
That they at least have something that is a little A-list.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:48.079
Something fucking fantastic.
00:20:49.759 --> 00:20:50.640
Oh my god, are you really?
00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:51.039
I know.
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:51.440
Oh my god.
00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:53.759
Remember that summer movie passed when it was like$10?
00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:55.119
I got in way too late.
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:57.039
Oh, that's I got in way too late.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:58.319
I was so fucking pissed.
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.119
That summer, it was like we all knew this was gonna fail.
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:09.599
So while it works, told me the business model, I went, that will never last, but I will buy it for now because so many movies.
00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:15.599
I was like no way that I saw so many movies I definitely wouldn't have seen.
00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:16.480
And they were great.
00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:16.880
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.759
But I was like, this is free for me to see this, so why wouldn't I go see this movie?
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:20.160
Exactly.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:23.200
Well, it's not technically free, but it's like it's at a price that you can afford.
00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:28.240
I mean, yeah, I've seen nine movies a month and it's twenty dollars for a month of movies.
00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:31.440
That's like what's like two dollars, two dollars and ten cents or something.
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:39.440
Like movies are so expensive, but like at this point, a twenty dollar movie ticket for three hours of entertainment in New York, that's like a good bank buck.
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:40.240
Yeah, you know?
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:41.119
Yeah, totally.
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:47.039
A three hundred dollar theater ticket at at minimum is not.
00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:37.440
This comes back to our conversation about capitalism, which was like last year's Broadway gross was like the highest in history, but it was the least attended.
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:37.680
Yeah.
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:40.960
So it's like Well, it's like you gotta adjust gross.
00:22:41.120 --> 00:22:42.880
It's like just everything's more expensive now.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:45.120
So like sure you're making more money, but what is that actually?
00:22:45.360 --> 00:22:45.519
Yeah.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:54.800
I'm did you ever read the first But also think about it this way if it's the highest grossing but the least attended, that actually means you've lost money.
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.440
You failed, yeah.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:56.320
You did fail.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:03.039
Because if more people attended, they would have put yeah you would have had people buying more merchandise, more drinks, more stuff like that.
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:03.920
Coming back.
00:23:04.080 --> 00:23:04.480
Coming back.
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:05.200
Well, right.
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:10.400
And also like and also like that that beautiful generation of theater patrons.
00:23:10.560 --> 00:23:12.560
Like, like working regionally, you see them.
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:17.200
There are these great like septigenarians who like love theater and will go to it.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:17.600
Yeah.
00:23:17.840 --> 00:23:19.360
They are all getting old.
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:25.920
And there's not really another new class coming up to take that spot because it's so prohibitively expensive.
00:23:26.080 --> 00:23:28.720
Did you ever read The Fervent Years by Willie?
00:23:29.120 --> 00:23:30.320
It sounds familiar, but I've never read it.
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.360
It's not the group theater, and it's kind of the creation of off-Broadway Theater.
00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:40.320
And and I don't totally know if I agree with this, but one of his suppositions is like theater.
00:23:40.560 --> 00:23:40.800
Who?
00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:41.200
Sorry.
00:23:41.360 --> 00:23:43.920
The author whose name I sh cannot remember in the case.
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:45.920
I'm like desperately looking for you.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:47.360
I'm like, let me look it on my phone.
00:23:47.600 --> 00:23:49.200
And my as my phone is over there.
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:57.200
Um but he says he's and again, I don't totally necessarily agree with this 100%, but he's like, theater should not be a profitable medium.
00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:02.480
Because like if theater is doing what theater should, it should be divisive.
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:07.360
It shouldn't be crowd-pleasing in the way that uh a Marvel movie is.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:08.640
And God bless a Marvel movie.
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:10.320
I'm not in no way shitting on that.
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:18.800
And and also some theater should, you know, like freaking what's a fun Hades Town is incredible and has been running for years.
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:25.920
I would say it's probably the last great, it's the it's the last great original musical, I would say, um, on Broadway.
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:29.200
Um but there's something about that that I agree with.
00:24:29.360 --> 00:24:30.720
Really, you didn't like Margaritaville?
00:24:31.840 --> 00:24:32.560
Didn't see it.
00:24:32.800 --> 00:24:33.360
Can't say it.
00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:33.840
Who did?
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.720
That flew by.
00:24:34.800 --> 00:24:42.160
Um but like that that I like that idea that like that like we shouldn't be making theater because we're trying to make back our investment.
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:46.400
We should be making it because it feels urgent and it feels important and we have a story to tell.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.960
Um it's uh frankly, it's the reason why like not to bring up punch this early in the conversation.
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:56.720
But like, A, I was really proud of Punch because there weren't movie stars in it.
00:24:56.800 --> 00:24:57.360
You know what I mean?
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:00.880
It wasn't a show that was being funded on the back of someone's celebrity.
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:08.080
But B, it was a really interesting, important, empathetic, human piece of writing.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:08.640
Yeah.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:29.519
That like whether or not you loved it, it was a show that was about something, yeah, and it was and it was about something in this moment in time where like because of the internet, because of uh politics, like it is harder and harder to have empathy for like people whose experiences you do not identify with.
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:33.519
Um and I'm like, isn't that kind of what theater's about?
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:40.560
Like the the alchemy of sitting in a room with people doing it is about that exchange of energy.
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:40.960
Yeah.
00:25:41.360 --> 00:25:50.400
And so if you're sitting in a room thinking, I just spent a thousand dollars for this ticket, I better feel like I just had the best sex of my life or else it wasn't worth it.
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:51.600
That's crazy.
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:59.680
I'm like, there's I I I don't care who anyone is, yeah, no one's performance is worth a thousand dollars.
00:25:59.840 --> 00:26:00.000
No.
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:07.600
I don't give a shit if it's Taylor Swift to whoever, no one is performing at$1,000 a seat.
00:26:07.840 --> 00:26:08.400
I agree.
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:09.279
No one.
00:26:09.840 --> 00:26:16.160
Um but that just reminded me of actually the author right over there, uh, James Shapiro, The Year of Lear.
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:24.480
Um I was listening to a podcast that he was on, because I'm doing like research just like theater pieces of like different like theater histories.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:27.200
And one of them I'm doing is on the Federal Theater Project.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:39.120
And he was talking about the Federal Theater Project, and it's the one of the only uh it is the only government subsided theater programs that has ever existed uh in the country.
00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:43.039
Uh, and it only lasted like I think three, four years in this country.
00:26:43.600 --> 00:26:44.080
Yeah.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:46.400
Uh headed by Halle Flanagan.
00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:51.440
Um, and uh anyway, I say all this because in the podcast he said something.
00:26:51.600 --> 00:27:00.320
I'm not sure if he was quoting someone or if he was just paraphrasing something or if he made it up, but he was saying every thriving democracy needs a good theater.
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:02.880
And if you have a thriving theater, you have a good democracy.
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.120
Well, this just in.
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:07.680
I don't think we're living in a thriving democracy for a lot of people.
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:08.560
And that's the thing.
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:16.160
And that's what kills me about like all the commercial theater that we have right now, because I'm just like, it's just a wash of neutrality.
00:27:16.320 --> 00:27:16.560
Right.
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:18.320
And I'm like, it's boring.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:26.720
But it's whatever happened to opinions in a pla like I can't stand now when I hear people go, Oh, they were just trying to jam their uh a message down our throats.
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:28.240
I'm like, that's a story.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:35.759
Yes, all stories have been because this is why I You can get the fuck out of here, Jacob.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:40.000
Yet another reason I liked Punch was I I think I love British writers.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:41.360
I love them, I love them.
00:27:41.840 --> 00:27:56.640
Because I do think what British writers do really well in general is they are really comfortable with asking really uh thought-provoking, sometimes uncomfortable questions and not answering them.
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:03.200
And I think American theatre tends to try to answer them, tell you what you should take from this.
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:03.759
Sure.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:04.640
This is the message.
00:28:04.800 --> 00:28:05.200
Fair enough.
00:28:05.360 --> 00:28:09.440
And British plays in general, I don't think they want a message, they want you to think.
00:28:09.600 --> 00:28:09.840
Yeah.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:23.039
So like I remember, and going to your point about you know, federally funded arts, when I studied abroad in London when I was an undergrad, um, I saw so much theater because you could rush a show for like 30 pounds.
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:26.240
Um I mean, that's what the National Theatre in England is.
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.039
And so, like, I saw the Jennifer Haley play, The Nether.
00:28:29.120 --> 00:28:29.680
Do you know that play?
00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:30.000
No.
00:28:30.560 --> 00:28:31.039
It's so good.
00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:31.759
You gotta read it.
00:28:32.080 --> 00:28:36.400
But I I didn't, I was just like, I it's it's 1:30 and I got nothing to do.
00:28:36.560 --> 00:28:38.400
This play is about to go on, I'll see it.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.120
And that show rocked my socks off.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:41.600
Yeah.
00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:52.000
And not because I came out feeling necessarily uh hopeful about humanity, but like it was so um, I felt so implicated as an audience member.
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:58.240
And I felt so stimulated, and I didn't feel like I came out with a neat little bow on what I was supposed to think.
00:28:58.400 --> 00:28:59.759
I'm still thinking about that play.
00:28:59.840 --> 00:29:01.360
Yeah, 15 years later.
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:03.200
It hasn't been 15 years, that was bad math.
00:29:03.600 --> 00:29:25.840
But I I just think that there is also a difference between like inviting an audience to to think about things and and uh uh spoon feeding an audience what you want them to feel.
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:26.560
Sure.
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:26.960
You know?
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:27.680
I feel that.
00:29:27.840 --> 00:29:29.680
I underst I I to I agree with that.
00:29:29.840 --> 00:29:38.560
Um I think maybe I'm so reticent or I'm just so vitriolic towards some of this stuff because I feel like they're not even asking questions.
00:29:38.800 --> 00:29:39.360
Oh, yeah, totally.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:50.080
They're just doing it and and I'm like, can we shade rather have someone speak or feed me something than just the general wash of just like Can we shade current Broadway shows on this podcast?
00:29:50.320 --> 00:29:50.720
Oh fuck yeah.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:51.039
Great.
00:29:51.120 --> 00:29:51.680
I don't give a shit.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:30:06.080
I my partner's parents were in town, and they had read the hilarious New York Times article about Dog Day Afternoon, where Stephen Adler Girgis was kicked out of the room because of problems with whatever.
00:30:06.320 --> 00:30:08.000
And so they were like, This did you hear about this?
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:08.240
No.
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:12.560
Oh, Stephen Adler Girgis, who wrote the play, was kicked out of the I think it was during previous.
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:13.920
Well, adapted, didn't he?
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:15.840
Technically, well, it's a screenplay.
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:16.640
It's not a play.
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.680
Yeah, I know, but he didn't but he didn't write Dog Day Afternoon.
00:30:19.840 --> 00:30:21.120
He didn't write Dog Day After the original screen.
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:23.600
But he wrote the play Dog Day Afternoon.
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:24.000
Gotcha.
00:30:24.080 --> 00:30:26.160
And he was Which he took, which he adapted from.
00:30:26.320 --> 00:30:27.600
Uh article.
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:30.640
Yeah, yeah, okay, which was adapted from newspaper article, you sound up yet.
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:36.160
But he and they were like, this is crazy, we gotta go see this.
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:39.840
And I'll I'll I'll be the first one to say it's really not good.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:40.320
Oh no.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.000
I mean, I'm not the first I'm not joking.
00:30:42.080 --> 00:30:44.160
Everyone said the all the reviews are like this is really bad.
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:45.200
It's really badly.
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:54.080
And to your point, like it's one of those where I Tessa, my partner, and I came away being like, what were we supposed to think?
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:55.039
Think about that.
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.840
Like, besides John Bernthal's a handsome guy.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:58.160
Yeah.
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:00.880
Hey, I'll say it's got John Bernthal and that other guy.
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:03.600
And I'll say both amazing actors.
00:31:04.080 --> 00:31:04.800
Most amazing actors.
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:06.640
I don't know if they're doing amazing work in this play.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:06.960
Oh, really?
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:09.440
And they're both very handsome.
00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:10.800
They look very good up there.
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:13.680
But I it was, it was like an especially.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:17.279
I mean, also, so many Broadway shows are just adaptations of movies now.
00:31:17.360 --> 00:31:17.519
Yeah.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:22.160
And I think baseline for that, you have to be like, have you justified making this a play?
00:31:22.320 --> 00:31:25.840
And I would say I came out of that being like, maybe this one should have just stayed a movie.
00:31:26.080 --> 00:31:28.160
Like, I don't know, this should have been a play.
00:31:28.320 --> 00:31:28.560
Yeah.
00:31:28.800 --> 00:31:29.440
Um, yeah.
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:30.800
Well, that always kills me.
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:32.640
It's just like, just go watch the movie.
00:31:32.800 --> 00:31:33.519
Just go watch the movie.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:34.560
Why do you need the theater?
00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:35.920
It's it's so weird.
00:31:36.080 --> 00:31:38.720
Like, I did not realize we were gonna go on this tangent for so long.
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:40.080
I feel like I haven't asked you any questions.
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:41.039
We can go back.
00:31:41.120 --> 00:31:41.440
We can go back.
00:31:41.840 --> 00:31:44.000
We can, but I will but I'm liking this a lot.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:47.200
But I'm just like, it's it's so funny to me now.
00:31:47.360 --> 00:31:50.240
Like, people it's so funny.
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:57.600
I'm like really putting this together in my head right now, which is people aren't going to see like movies as much as they used to.
00:31:58.080 --> 00:31:59.279
They'd rather watch them at home.
00:31:59.600 --> 00:32:01.440
They're seeing these celebrities here.
00:32:02.080 --> 00:32:06.240
If they want to go see a show on Broadway, it has to be something they know.
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:10.800
So they're adapting stuff that are movies into shows on on Broadway.
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:20.880
And then in order to get people butts in seats for these shows, they're casting the people who are in the TV shows and the movies to be on stage.
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.480
But the funniest part of it all is these shows don't do very well.
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:26.560
Like the shows that they're all limited runs.
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:31.200
Well, yes, because the shows that do well are the original things, yeah, but that takes seven.
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:33.200
I mean, how long was Hamilton in development?
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:33.759
Years.
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:34.160
Yeah.
00:32:34.320 --> 00:32:36.800
And and these theaters want to make money now.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:41.840
So, like that show with um Adele Dezim, that's not her name, but Redwood.
00:32:42.080 --> 00:32:42.480
Redwood.
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.360
That one was on for like an an afternoon and a half.
00:32:45.600 --> 00:32:49.360
Well, but it it its first ever showing, thank you.
00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:58.080
It's first ever, I'm getting excited, and I'm whoo! Its first ever production was like a limited regional run or something, and then it went straight to Broadway.
00:32:58.240 --> 00:32:58.480
Of course.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.279
Because they did not care about developing work.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:04.880
Hades Town was an album, and then it was at the New York Theater Workshop.
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:06.640
Like, these things take time.
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:07.600
It's hard to do that.
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:13.600
Hades Town was at New York Theater Workshop like a decade before it came to Broadway.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:14.720
This just in.
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.480
It's hard to write good plays.
00:33:16.560 --> 00:33:16.800
Yeah.
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:18.960
It's really hard to write good musicals.
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:19.440
Yes.
00:33:19.600 --> 00:33:29.759
And like, so so the the thing is is that all these theaters, both before COVID, but especially after COVID, they're so desperate to make back the money they lost that like they're like, just do anything.
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:34.240
But like the shows that actually they make money are shows that took time.
00:33:34.560 --> 00:33:37.759
But this is what I'm gonna say to what you guys can move on.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:38.880
Then we can move on.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:41.279
Which is it is really hard.
00:33:41.360 --> 00:33:46.800
You know, there's that saying anyone can act, few can direct, no one can write.
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:48.080
I've never heard that, but I like it.
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:50.800
But that's a thing I don't think it's entirely true.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:52.640
I think acting is much harder than I'm a show.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:56.960
At least don't try what we're doing at home, folks.
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:04.000
Um so when when you do find someone who can write, it's like gold and it's beautiful.
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:04.800
Guess what?
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.360
There are so many great writers out there.
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:13.119
So this idea of like, yeah, it is hard to write a good play, yeah, but there are plenty of people.
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:17.920
Why do you think all these students are going to to school to figure out how to write this way?
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:27.279
Like, uh, I read like almost every year I go to NYU and have to and read scripts and like help out with like the writing c classes and whatever.
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.960
And I'm like, there are great writers out here, young great writers.
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:43.360
Yeah, it's it's not a matter of I don't think producers care about quality in that respect anymore, which I I hate saying, but I think it's true because I they think about money.
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:49.519
And an extended thing, which I've said several times, which is producers are not creatives anymore.
00:34:49.680 --> 00:34:51.760
Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to say it.
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:58.800
And they're they're just money people and they they look for trends because trends bring in money.
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.519
But to your point about like good writers, it's like it's out there.
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:12.000
Well, but plenty, yes, and like again, not to bring up Hamilton again, but like like it's still Lin Memoir Miranda was an established incredible writer when you wrote Hamilton.
00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:12.880
It still took eight years.
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:14.159
Yeah, like that's what I'm saying.
00:35:14.240 --> 00:35:18.480
It's not like if you're a good writer, you should be able to pull out an incredible play in six months.
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:27.680
Like it still takes years of development to do this, yeah, because you need to see it along every stage of the process, no matter how good you are.
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:28.800
No one works in a vacuum.
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:29.519
You know what I mean?
00:35:29.680 --> 00:35:30.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:35.039
It's just I think there's more to be learned about people developing their own taste.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:35.280
Yeah.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:40.240
Because I do think, again, back to the the discussion about what is good and bad theater.
00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:53.119
It's just like, well, if you're constantly putting out stuff that doesn't ask any form of question or or what have you, and has just a neutral opinion about everything, right?
00:35:53.360 --> 00:36:00.559
Then you have a whole generation of people who are watching that stuff thinking, oh, the the critics say this is good.
00:36:00.720 --> 00:36:01.360
So I'll go see it.
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.079
And they've been paid to say that it's good.
00:36:04.240 --> 00:36:04.720
Right.
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.280
Um then everyone's gonna go see it.
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:11.760
And then everyone's gonna start absorbing it and going, Well, I was told this is good, so it must be good.
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:12.079
Right.
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:13.200
The greater good.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:20.400
If you've ever seen Hot Fuzz, yes, the great fucking movie, but it's a similar thing, it's like a form of brainwashing.
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:33.200
And I do think that we're at this point now with theater where it's such a wash of neutrality that and nobody wants to get canceled for saying the wrong thing or saying something's bad.
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:34.320
What the fuck is being canceled?
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:34.880
Like that's why I'm not gonna be able to do it.
00:36:35.200 --> 00:36:37.440
Being canceled is such a right-wing idea that doesn't fucking exist.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:38.559
I know it's fucking stupid.
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:41.039
LCK's still making so much goddamn money.
00:36:41.200 --> 00:36:41.760
Who gives a fuck?
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:42.639
Exactly.
00:36:42.720 --> 00:36:45.760
And but it just like I'm like, we need opinion.
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:47.920
We need strong opinion and strong questions.
00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:54.000
My mom, when I was in grad school, went and saw some Adam Rat play with uh what's the one from Weeds?
00:36:54.240 --> 00:36:56.159
Uh uh uh Oh, Michelle.
00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:56.639
No.
00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:57.039
No.
00:36:57.200 --> 00:36:57.519
No.
00:36:57.760 --> 00:36:58.880
Michelle Pfeiffer?
00:36:59.039 --> 00:36:59.280
No.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:02.880
No, I know who you're talking about because I auditioned for a movie she was in once.
00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:03.680
Yes, her.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:07.920
She was in some play where she played a teacher and her student, and she and they had an affair.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:08.480
And my mom.
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:08.960
Yeah.
00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:11.200
Wait, this David Cromer directed it, I think.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:11.840
Maybe, I don't know.
00:37:12.240 --> 00:37:12.720
She hated it.
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:12.960
Yeah.
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:15.119
Because she's a teacher and she was like, this is horrifying.
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:15.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.760
But she kept talking about it.
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:20.960
And I was like, Mom, I think it's a good play because you're thinking about it so much.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:22.800
Like, and that's- But here's the thing.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:26.559
I think you cannot like a play and it can still have you thinking stuff.
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:27.599
No, that's what I'm saying.
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:31.119
I think if you have that strong reaction to it, it's a successful play.
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:31.440
Yeah.
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:35.039
Because the play's job is not to make you walk away going, that play was awesome, I loved it.
00:37:35.200 --> 00:37:37.039
But if it's stirring something in you.
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:41.760
Well, actually, now that now you're saying this, I I just recently saw the Super Mario Galaxy movie.
00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:42.400
Yeah, let's go.
00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:43.039
As a joke.
00:37:43.200 --> 00:37:44.480
I wasn't with some friends.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:45.440
Dog shit.
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:46.240
Did you see the first one?
00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:46.639
Yes.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:47.360
It was pretty good.
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:48.240
No, it wasn't.
00:37:51.280 --> 00:37:52.079
Okay, yes.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:57.920
It is the second one, it is just a wash of case sequences IP fight.
00:37:58.240 --> 00:37:59.440
It's just flashing.
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:00.320
It really is.
00:38:00.720 --> 00:38:01.360
Looks beautiful.
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:04.559
Don't don't get me wrong, but it is trash, just like the first one.
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:05.119
That's fair.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.240
And I have a right to say that.
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:07.119
This is my podcast.
00:38:07.200 --> 00:38:07.599
That's true.
00:38:07.680 --> 00:38:08.639
Go fuck yourself.
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:10.320
Um where are we?
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.000
Oh my god, we have spent so much time on the I don't care though.
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:18.240
I actually wish I I should have the show operate more like this.
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:18.559
Okay.
00:38:18.720 --> 00:38:19.039
I feel like.
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:19.599
Totally.
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:23.680
So uh because normally I just do like a little like character breakdown, a bio of the stuff.
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:25.440
Well, we can do that too, but you can fuck it.
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:26.079
We can move on to the next one.
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:26.960
You can get me started.
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:28.000
I'll get going.
00:38:28.240 --> 00:38:28.960
I'll get going.
00:38:29.200 --> 00:38:32.000
I think this says more about you than than you know.
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:33.119
Well, you know, it's funny.
00:38:33.200 --> 00:38:35.360
I uh as you look up this question, I'll say this.
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:42.320
Like, I just again did this production of Twelfth Night that like was really fun and really successful in some ways, and also I think artistically wasn't my favorite thing.
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:42.720
Yeah.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:46.880
And and there were moments of real frustration having to do with a myriad of things.
00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:50.559
And a friend of mine who was out there said this to me, and I I really resonated with it.
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:52.639
She was like, I'm being very political, can you tell?
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:54.320
Um please, I'll I'll love it.
00:38:54.559 --> 00:39:04.320
And and she said, um, when you love this thing as much as you do, not doing it well is really hard.
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:05.200
Dude.
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:12.800
And that's and that's the thing, is it's like, I not only do I love acting, not only do I love like I think as you're saying, like, theater is really important.
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:18.320
And so, like, when it's not, I'm none of this is coming from this is all coming from a place of love.
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:23.519
And it's the love of being like, this can be the fucking best thing in the world.
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:24.240
Absolutely.
00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:32.559
And so when it's not, when you can smell the consumerism, when you can smell the the business of it all the time, it's really it's it's hard.
00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:34.079
I I totally feel that.
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:40.960
And and uh something I was gonna say going back to what we were saying before, though, um I I have strong opinions about bad stuff too, though.
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:52.720
And and like so, I I'm sort of rescinding what I said a moment ago, which is like I actually do think bad things make me question more, but it doesn't make me question themes, it makes me question what they were trying to do.
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:59.760
And that and if if I'm sitting in the audience thinking after just watching it and going, wait, what happened?
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.280
Or during it failed.
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:03.119
You fucking failed.
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:06.159
And and to give like in a major way.
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:13.680
Yes, and to give dog day afternoon its due, uh, a friend of mine happened to be at the same night we were there, and he liked it.
00:40:13.840 --> 00:40:15.680
And I was like, art is subjective.
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:17.519
Like wait, did you see it in previews?
00:40:17.680 --> 00:40:19.840
I think I saw it the night before it opened, maybe.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.840
But like, oh I think it's changed.
00:40:22.240 --> 00:40:31.840
But like again, if you're getting to the day before opening and you're still like, it's like but like what I I that has been another reminder for me constantly recently, is like, oh, art is subjective.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.119
Like there are things that I'm like, there's no way anyone could like this, and people are like, I love that.
00:40:35.200 --> 00:40:39.760
Or there are things like one battle after another, which I was like, this is an incredible fucking movie.
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:40.400
I love it so much.
00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:44.400
And I knew people who were either hated it, which was one thing, or were kind of lukewarm on it.
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.079
And I was like, how are you lukewarm on this?
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:46.559
You hated.
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:51.440
I will say there were people that I hated in it, and I didn't always root for the leads.
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.960
I mean that maybe sounded terrible.
00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:55.760
I'm cutting that.
00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.480
I I mean you were Sean Penn bootlicker, get out of here.
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:02.880
I mean, well, I he was so uh incredible in that part.
00:41:03.280 --> 00:41:05.760
Like, holy shit, what a character.
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:15.039
Um and maybe that's what it made like I I loved his performance because there were times when I was just like, I don't know how to feel about you.
00:41:15.200 --> 00:41:17.360
Oh no, you I mean he kind of has an happy ending.
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:21.119
Like he dies, but like in his he thinks he succeeded.
00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:22.159
He does get what he wants.
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:22.960
That movie so much.
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:24.400
Technically, I love that movie so much.
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:25.119
I guess.
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:27.599
Um, he thinks he gets what he wants.
00:41:27.680 --> 00:41:28.639
Yeah, he thinks he gets what he wants.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:30.880
But that's all he cares about anyway, is thinking he's getting it.
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:31.440
But that's the thing.
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:31.599
Yeah.
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:33.760
Because he lives in a world of delusion the entire time.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:34.480
Exactly, yeah.
00:41:35.680 --> 00:41:37.039
It's just so interesting.
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:38.720
It's so interesting.
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:41.519
I will say I did really like that movie.
00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:41.840
Yeah.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:42.480
It's very good.
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:43.360
I really like that movie.
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:44.720
Uh, just to save my own ass.
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:45.519
Yeah, totally.
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:48.240
The big one battle after another fans are gonna come after you for that.
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:48.800
No, it was good.
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:53.200
I think it was just it was a little, it was different than what I was I think I was expecting it to be.
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:54.720
It's very not PTA.
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:55.519
Oh no.
00:41:55.680 --> 00:41:59.440
Like, I think it was the beginning, it was like it was hard to f You know what it was.
00:41:59.519 --> 00:41:59.760
Yeah.
00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:03.440
Now that I'm really thinking about it, and I will st I will die on this hill.
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:04.159
Yeah.
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:10.000
I never believed once when Leonardo DiCaprio would say viva la revolution.
00:42:10.240 --> 00:42:10.960
Oh, I totally disagree.
00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:37.110
I'm not a single, not a single moment he said it.
00:42:37.190 --> 00:42:39.030
I I was like, You're Leonardo DiCaprio.
00:42:39.510 --> 00:42:41.750
I think I think he was too famous for that part.
00:42:41.990 --> 00:42:43.349
I I genuinely think that's true.
00:42:43.590 --> 00:42:45.110
Because I'm I genuinely think that's true.
00:42:45.510 --> 00:42:47.190
In general, not a Leo lover.
00:42:47.349 --> 00:42:47.750
Yeah.
00:42:47.990 --> 00:42:51.750
But I'm loving Leo in his loser era.
00:42:51.990 --> 00:42:54.150
I love Leo playing washed up losers.
00:42:54.470 --> 00:42:54.870
I do too.
00:42:55.349 --> 00:42:55.910
Don't get me wrong.
00:42:56.150 --> 00:43:07.030
And so what I loved about that movie was I was like, I'm watching a guy who knows his best days are behind him and is like just falling apart.
00:43:07.269 --> 00:43:07.510
Yeah.
00:43:07.590 --> 00:43:08.230
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:08.470 --> 00:43:10.870
Anyway, we could we don't have to talk about it anymore.
00:43:11.269 --> 00:43:11.829
I love it so much.
00:43:12.070 --> 00:43:13.030
It's great.
00:43:15.430 --> 00:43:17.190
We're gonna move on to the final segment.
00:43:17.349 --> 00:43:18.230
The final segment?
00:43:18.470 --> 00:43:18.630
Yeah.
00:43:19.750 --> 00:43:19.990
Don't worry.
00:43:20.150 --> 00:43:21.910
The final segment has a we're gonna keep talking.
00:43:22.070 --> 00:43:22.870
We've been talking.
00:43:23.030 --> 00:43:25.110
You can choose from deeper questions.
00:43:25.349 --> 00:43:27.510
Yes, no, and sometimes why.
00:43:27.670 --> 00:43:32.390
Uh you can do Lipton Classics or you can tell a audition horror story slash beautiful story.
00:43:33.349 --> 00:43:33.990
You want to do cheaper questions?
00:43:34.550 --> 00:43:34.950
Yeah, of course.
00:43:35.030 --> 00:43:35.190
Okay.
00:43:35.430 --> 00:43:37.990
We just talked 45 minutes about the state of America.
00:43:39.990 --> 00:43:40.550
Here we go.
00:43:40.710 --> 00:43:40.950
Okay.
00:43:41.110 --> 00:43:42.230
Sing the theme.
00:43:42.950 --> 00:43:46.230
Ooh, here comes deeper questions.
00:43:46.390 --> 00:43:49.349
It's getting deep exponentially so.
00:43:49.670 --> 00:43:50.789
Ooh, that was a good one.
00:43:51.110 --> 00:43:51.269
Thanks.
00:43:54.309 --> 00:43:54.630
I don't know why.
00:43:54.870 --> 00:44:00.710
Well, this is deeper questions, and as the title implies, the questions go deeper.
00:44:00.870 --> 00:44:04.309
These are potentially personal, political, or professional questions.
00:44:04.550 --> 00:44:07.030
Uh this is one question chosen at random.
00:44:07.349 --> 00:44:08.070
Oh, okay.
00:44:08.390 --> 00:44:10.230
And uh you can answer or not.
00:44:10.390 --> 00:44:10.870
It's up to you.
00:44:11.190 --> 00:44:12.390
That'd be funny if I was like too deep.
00:44:12.789 --> 00:44:14.230
I mean, to I mean, you never know.
00:44:14.470 --> 00:44:17.269
I never wanna I never wanna cross a line or anything, you know.
00:44:17.910 --> 00:44:19.510
That's why I put it out there at the beginning.
00:44:19.750 --> 00:44:20.550
Uh let me see.
00:44:20.710 --> 00:44:22.150
Choose uh number one through eight.
00:44:22.390 --> 00:44:22.710
Three.
00:44:22.950 --> 00:44:23.190
No.
00:44:23.430 --> 00:44:23.910
Six.
00:44:24.150 --> 00:44:24.550
Six.
00:44:24.789 --> 00:44:25.269
Which one's better?
00:44:25.430 --> 00:44:25.670
Be honest.
00:44:25.829 --> 00:44:26.150
I don't know.
00:44:26.710 --> 00:44:27.349
Which one did you say?
00:44:27.510 --> 00:44:28.070
Three or six.
00:44:28.230 --> 00:44:28.710
Three or six?
00:44:28.789 --> 00:44:29.430
Okay, let me see.
00:44:30.550 --> 00:44:31.190
They're both good.
00:44:31.430 --> 00:44:32.710
Do you want to read them both and I'll decide?
00:44:32.870 --> 00:44:35.030
Is that kind of not in the spirit of the game?
00:44:35.190 --> 00:44:35.990
No, that's totally fine.
00:44:36.070 --> 00:44:36.710
It's not really a game.
00:44:36.950 --> 00:44:37.670
Like, uh, why not?
00:44:37.910 --> 00:44:39.510
There's no reason why I can't I shouldn't do more.
00:44:39.670 --> 00:44:40.630
I just usually do it at the end.
00:44:40.710 --> 00:44:44.870
So the first one is how does race play a part in your work?
00:44:45.110 --> 00:44:45.590
Damn.
00:44:45.750 --> 00:44:49.590
And the sixth one is what are your thoughts on nepotism in the entertainment industry?
00:44:49.829 --> 00:44:50.230
Damn.
00:44:50.390 --> 00:44:54.070
These are both questions that I'm sure other people have really There are some great questions.
00:44:54.390 --> 00:44:56.870
Great answers to these in the past.
00:44:57.269 --> 00:45:00.870
Um I'm gonna lightly touch nepotism nepotism.
00:45:01.190 --> 00:45:02.150
And then talk about race more.
00:45:02.390 --> 00:45:03.670
Nepotism is interesting.
00:45:04.070 --> 00:45:04.789
I think they are linked.
00:45:05.110 --> 00:45:06.150
Nepotism.
00:45:06.550 --> 00:45:06.789
Okay.
00:45:07.030 --> 00:45:10.390
A, I think people really only have a problem with nepotism when the person's bad.
00:45:10.630 --> 00:45:13.190
Like, there's a lot of great nepot babies who are like, that's fine.
00:45:13.269 --> 00:45:15.510
You're good at acting, so we don't give a shit.
00:45:15.670 --> 00:45:16.789
Um, which is fair.
00:45:16.950 --> 00:45:17.110
Yeah.
00:45:17.269 --> 00:45:22.470
Um also, I think so often what people just want is to somebody to be like, yeah, I had an advantage.
00:45:22.710 --> 00:45:24.070
And then we go, yeah, you're right.
00:45:24.150 --> 00:45:24.550
Okay, great.
00:45:24.630 --> 00:45:24.710
Yeah.
00:45:24.870 --> 00:45:27.030
What we hate is when people are like, I worked so hard.
00:45:27.190 --> 00:45:28.150
In fact, it was harder for me.
00:45:28.390 --> 00:45:28.789
That's when no.
00:45:29.190 --> 00:45:29.750
We want honesty.
00:45:29.910 --> 00:45:30.070
Right.
00:45:30.150 --> 00:45:31.990
We want honesty and all any actor wants.
00:45:32.230 --> 00:45:33.990
And I also think that like any good act.
00:45:34.230 --> 00:45:38.710
The reason the world kind of rolls their eyes at this is like that's how business works everywhere.
00:45:38.789 --> 00:45:38.950
Yeah.
00:45:39.190 --> 00:45:41.269
Your dad owns a company, he hires you.
00:45:41.430 --> 00:45:43.030
Like, like you will run the company.
00:45:43.269 --> 00:45:50.630
Okay, I do audiobooks, and I just read a statistic the other day that really like made me shit my pants because it made me go, oh, okay.
00:45:50.710 --> 00:45:50.870
Yeah.
00:45:51.030 --> 00:45:51.269
Totally.
00:45:51.430 --> 00:45:52.070
That makes sense.
00:45:52.230 --> 00:45:56.870
Which was um only 20% of hires are gotten through hiring websites.
00:45:57.190 --> 00:45:57.750
Of course.
00:45:57.910 --> 00:46:02.230
All others are done through personal reference who you know, family members.
00:46:02.550 --> 00:46:04.950
80% of hiring decisions are made that way.
00:46:05.269 --> 00:46:07.349
Are we calling personal references nepotism?
00:46:07.590 --> 00:46:14.710
No, no, I'm just saying that like uh uh you know, just you have to have known someone connected to the job.
00:46:15.030 --> 00:46:24.950
Well, and I think the reason it feels particularly frustrating for actors is it it is a real shattering of the idea of a meritocracy, which like I always say get with it, actors.
00:46:25.110 --> 00:46:26.630
This isn't a meritocracy.
00:46:26.789 --> 00:46:29.590
Uh we all know great actors who aren't working, we all know bad actors who work a lot.
00:46:29.670 --> 00:46:30.390
Like, that's just what it is.
00:46:30.550 --> 00:46:30.630
Yeah.
00:46:30.789 --> 00:46:32.470
But like the world's not a meritocracy either.
00:46:32.550 --> 00:46:36.470
So, like, the idea that acting is the last bastion of that is kooky bananas.
00:46:36.630 --> 00:46:37.590
Like, of course it's not.
00:46:37.670 --> 00:46:44.550
So, nepotism ultimately I feel kind of nothing towards because I'm like, great, if it happens, I'm not gonna shake my fist at the sky.
00:46:44.789 --> 00:46:57.590
That being said, I know actors who like are going up all the time against like the same daughters of famous men, and those daughters are getting the parts, that would be really challenging.
00:46:57.829 --> 00:47:02.710
So, part of it is I recognize like uh I'm not going up against well, whomever.
00:47:03.349 --> 00:47:05.750
What's Meg Ryan and Dennis Quaid's son?
00:47:05.910 --> 00:47:09.030
Uh oh he, you know, I've warmed up to him over the years, but I used to be.
00:47:09.190 --> 00:47:11.190
Not that he's bad, but like that's everything he does.
00:47:11.349 --> 00:47:12.789
I'm like, I think I could have done that.
00:47:12.870 --> 00:47:13.190
Jack Quaid.
00:47:13.349 --> 00:47:13.670
Jack Quaid.
00:47:13.829 --> 00:47:14.789
Everything Jack Quaid does.
00:47:14.870 --> 00:47:15.750
I'm like, I could have done that.
00:47:15.829 --> 00:47:15.910
Yeah.
00:47:15.990 --> 00:47:18.470
But like similar.
00:47:18.710 --> 00:47:20.630
I'm not, I'm not in those fucking rooms anyway.
00:47:20.710 --> 00:47:21.510
So who gives a shit?
00:47:21.590 --> 00:47:22.870
I would love to see you and the boys.
00:47:23.030 --> 00:47:24.150
I know, I think it'd be pretty good.
00:47:24.309 --> 00:47:25.190
I gotta catch up on that show.
00:47:25.349 --> 00:47:26.150
I don't like the more than ones.
00:47:26.230 --> 00:47:26.630
Oh, you don't really?
00:47:26.710 --> 00:47:27.430
It's a first two.
00:47:27.990 --> 00:47:32.070
It's a little too South Park for me in that, like, it's like, we're gonna skewer everything.
00:47:32.309 --> 00:47:33.750
And I'm like, okay, fine.
00:47:33.829 --> 00:47:34.870
I can tell white guys made it.
00:47:35.030 --> 00:47:36.230
See, there's that spoon feeding thing, yeah.
00:47:36.309 --> 00:47:38.870
And I'm like, I prefer that over nothing to race.
00:47:41.110 --> 00:47:42.230
Now, race.
00:47:42.470 --> 00:47:52.390
I mean, one of the ways race plays a a a big part in my work is that being a gigantic white dude.
00:47:52.789 --> 00:47:56.950
Can I just say when you when I saw you I'm huge enter, I forgot how tall you are.
00:47:57.110 --> 00:47:57.990
Everyone forgets how tall I am.
00:47:58.150 --> 00:47:58.630
And I like it.
00:48:03.510 --> 00:48:06.470
And straight and white and a dude.
00:48:06.710 --> 00:48:16.950
And so I think one of the main ways race plays a part in my work is that like I it is an active practice to remind myself that like my experience is not everyone's experience.
00:48:17.110 --> 00:48:17.590
You know what I mean?
00:48:17.670 --> 00:48:18.470
In a variety of ways.
00:48:18.630 --> 00:48:18.870
Yeah.
00:48:19.030 --> 00:48:23.030
Um, I don't know about you, but like I'm from Portland, Oregon, as I said.
00:48:23.110 --> 00:48:34.950
And like Portland, Oregon is a deeply white place where like I remember I I studied, uh, I did a summer intensive of Meisner, my senior, my the summer before my senior year of college in New York.
00:48:35.110 --> 00:48:41.030
And I remember like riding the I was living in Brooklyn and I remember riding the train and being like, I'm the only white person on this train.
00:48:41.269 --> 00:48:46.789
And it didn't necessarily fill me with any emotion other than that, but it was the realization of like I've never had that experience.
00:48:46.950 --> 00:48:47.190
Yeah.
00:48:47.349 --> 00:48:52.550
I've never had and then like getting back to Portland riding the bus and being noticing just noticing yourself in in an environment.
00:48:52.870 --> 00:48:53.910
Being like, holy smokes.
00:48:53.990 --> 00:49:05.349
I and I I uh actor we went to I went to school with always said like the the definition of a blind spot is something you cannot see until someone tells you.
00:49:05.670 --> 00:49:10.550
So I I think people are accountable to their blind spots once they've been made aware of them.
00:49:10.710 --> 00:49:15.349
Yeah, but you can't really hold someone accountable for something they are blind to because they can't see it.
00:49:15.510 --> 00:49:16.150
You know what I mean?
00:49:16.550 --> 00:49:16.789
Yeah.
00:49:16.950 --> 00:49:20.550
Um and so like But can I push back a little bit on this?
00:49:20.710 --> 00:49:24.309
In that we have we are living in an information era.
00:49:24.390 --> 00:49:24.550
Yeah.
00:49:24.710 --> 00:49:27.750
You can look up anything, yes, but you can also look up misinformation.
00:49:27.990 --> 00:49:28.150
Yes.
00:49:28.390 --> 00:49:30.309
The information this is we're we're in syndrome.
00:49:30.550 --> 00:49:31.829
Syndrome was right in The Incredibles.
00:49:33.269 --> 00:49:35.030
Syndrome! If everyone's super, no one is.
00:49:35.110 --> 00:49:40.870
And like everyone has access to every piece of information, real or fake, kind of we have access to nothing.
00:49:41.030 --> 00:49:41.269
Yeah.
00:49:41.430 --> 00:49:51.110
And and I think no matter how much we're on the internet all the time, like there is nothing, there will never be anything like someone in your life sitting down with you and talking to you and saying, Hey, you're not aware of this, but X.
00:49:51.349 --> 00:49:51.750
Yeah.
00:49:51.990 --> 00:49:56.789
And me, a person who spends time around you, is observing this in you.
00:49:57.190 --> 00:49:58.870
It's first hand account.
00:49:58.950 --> 00:49:59.030
Right.
00:49:59.349 --> 00:50:01.190
Nothing is nothing is stronger than a firsthand account.
00:50:01.430 --> 00:50:06.390
Even if it's not personal, just someone you know and love being like, I've been thinking about this, and you're like, Oh, I never thought about it that way.
00:50:06.470 --> 00:50:06.630
Yeah.
00:50:06.789 --> 00:50:10.550
That is going to mean so much more to you than reading a post on Reddit being like, oh, they said that thing.
00:50:10.630 --> 00:50:12.309
You're gonna go, and then you're gonna move on.
00:50:12.390 --> 00:50:12.630
Yeah.
00:50:12.789 --> 00:50:22.070
So going to NYU, which was I moved from Portland to New York for school, was also the first time in my life I had spent legitimate time within black community.
00:50:22.230 --> 00:50:27.110
Yeah, I had black friends in Portland, but they were always like one of the two black people I knew.
00:50:27.190 --> 00:50:27.349
Yeah.
00:50:27.510 --> 00:50:36.789
It wasn't, and so like they were experiencing a profound sense of kind of isolation that they probably never expressed to me because I was 19 and didn't know anything about that.
00:50:36.870 --> 00:50:39.349
And they did not feel like they could express that to me, I'm sure.
00:50:39.510 --> 00:50:53.510
So coming to NYU, where half of my class was black, not only was I around black folks in such an intimate way, I was I was like, oh, I'm I'm seeing black folks being in communion with one another in a way that I never experienced as a young person.
00:50:54.070 --> 00:50:54.390
Same.
00:50:54.470 --> 00:51:01.910
And I I lived in New York, like the state of New York my whole life, and have been living in this city for like 12 years now.
00:51:01.990 --> 00:51:03.110
I think coming up on 12.
00:51:03.430 --> 00:51:04.230
I had the same experience.
00:51:04.390 --> 00:51:08.470
Going to NYU is a hugely informative experience for me in terms of race.
00:51:08.550 --> 00:51:08.710
Yeah.
00:51:09.030 --> 00:51:10.710
And having discussions about race.
00:51:10.950 --> 00:51:13.750
Like we had some really uncomfortable discussions.
00:51:14.070 --> 00:51:14.470
Of course.
00:51:14.710 --> 00:51:19.990
And I'm so glad we did because I realized going through it, I was like, oh, I can survive that.
00:51:20.230 --> 00:51:23.910
There's nothing the the conversations about race, they can't kill you.
00:51:24.150 --> 00:51:24.550
Right, right.
00:51:24.950 --> 00:51:26.309
And it's only a benefit.
00:51:26.630 --> 00:51:50.150
Well, right, and like, and like like um I think the pr again, kind of I would jokingly say now, like the white guy in me, but I mean this earnestly, like I think that the idea that difficult conversations surrounding identity, whatever it is, are things to either be avoided or something you do so that you get through them.
00:51:50.870 --> 00:51:55.990
I think what I have come to realize in my life in general is like that is an active practice.
00:51:56.309 --> 00:52:15.349
That like to be in this world in anybody is to is to come up against uncomfortable things with people, you know, and especially in this work, because we are doing a job where you're meeting people really quickly and really intimately, but you don't really know them that well.
00:52:15.430 --> 00:52:15.670
Yeah.
00:52:15.829 --> 00:52:21.269
So you might know uh deep parts of their soul, but I I don't know what makes you laugh.
00:52:21.430 --> 00:52:22.950
I don't know where your lines are.
00:52:23.190 --> 00:52:31.990
And the the ness what will necessarily happen is boundaries will be pushed, lines will be crossed, and then it's about okay, then what do you do?
00:52:32.070 --> 00:52:32.230
Yeah.
00:52:32.390 --> 00:52:39.510
So like the idea, I think like, you know, the like 18-year-old in me who hadn't gone to therapy who was like perfection is attainable and I can do it.
00:52:39.670 --> 00:52:40.309
Oh, I was the same.
00:52:40.630 --> 00:52:40.789
Right.
00:52:40.950 --> 00:52:45.110
And like, and that was that was both like within myself, but also like in my relationship to other people.
00:52:45.269 --> 00:52:50.950
So like trying, like, I think again, like I think a beginning part of my experience in grad school was being like, I'm gonna be the good white guy.
00:52:51.110 --> 00:52:53.349
Like, I'm gonna be the white guy who is never the problem.
00:52:53.510 --> 00:52:57.269
But is that is maybe this is a thing among amongst white men.
00:52:57.829 --> 00:52:59.590
Like I know this is a thing.
00:52:59.750 --> 00:53:01.990
Uh uh about the notion of like perfection.
00:53:02.230 --> 00:53:04.390
I think it is a security thing.
00:53:04.710 --> 00:53:07.030
There's something white supremacist about it, yeah.
00:53:07.910 --> 00:53:21.590
I think that men, again, I can only speak to white men, but most of the men I know, regardless of their race, uh I think we're raised in a society where usefulness for men is is like that's the goal.
00:53:21.670 --> 00:53:26.710
And I think it's the reason there is such a real mental health crisis with men, is it's men feeling useless.
00:53:26.870 --> 00:53:27.349
Yeah.
00:53:27.590 --> 00:53:36.150
And usefulness is not one's uh purpose, and usefulness is not one's reason of yeah, that is not the reason people exist.
00:53:36.309 --> 00:53:45.750
But I think that men especially can really struggle with that feeling of like, if I'm useless or even worse, if I'm causing the problem, yeah, fuck, you know?
00:53:45.990 --> 00:53:54.950
And so like I I I remember my first year, one of my black classmates, she came in one day and her hair was very different than it was the day before.
00:53:55.190 --> 00:53:58.710
It had been in braids and then it wasn't, and it looked a lot shorter to me.
00:53:58.870 --> 00:53:59.510
Yeah.
00:54:00.230 --> 00:54:02.710
And I remember saying, like, oh, did you get a haircut?
00:54:03.030 --> 00:54:03.190
Yeah.
00:54:03.349 --> 00:54:05.510
And one of my classmates, Jarvis, God bless him.
00:54:05.670 --> 00:54:15.590
I also had the distinct privilege of being in class with uh a lot of queer black people, yeah, who I I just felt I learned and and love them so fucking much.
00:54:15.990 --> 00:54:17.590
But I remember him being like, You're so white.
00:54:17.750 --> 00:54:19.750
And I remember being like, I don't know what you're talking about.
00:54:19.910 --> 00:54:24.630
And then another one of my classmates, uh, later that same day touched that classmate's hair.
00:54:24.870 --> 00:54:25.190
Oh no.
00:54:25.510 --> 00:54:31.829
And so then this classmate of mine, she brought us both over and kind of sat down, was like, hey, let I want to talk about this really quick.
00:54:32.150 --> 00:54:36.470
And A, that was not her responsibility to do that.
00:54:36.630 --> 00:54:44.309
Yeah, but like with most education, I do unfortunately think like the way people learn best is someone doing more work than they need to.
00:54:44.550 --> 00:54:45.430
Yeah, I agree.
00:54:45.670 --> 00:54:47.910
And that's like is that such a fair?
00:54:48.150 --> 00:54:48.309
No.
00:54:48.470 --> 00:54:48.630
No.
00:54:48.789 --> 00:54:49.750
Should that be how the world is?
00:54:49.829 --> 00:54:50.070
No.
00:54:50.230 --> 00:54:51.030
Is that how it is?
00:54:51.190 --> 00:54:51.670
I think so.
00:54:51.910 --> 00:54:54.789
But what's like what we said before the world is not a meritocracy.
00:54:55.030 --> 00:54:56.789
The world's not a meritocracy and those instances.
00:54:57.110 --> 00:55:09.990
Well, and unfortunately, do have she made the calculation of like it is worth me expending this effort with these guys who I'm gonna be with for three years to have this conversation now, then kind of brush this aside and risk it escalating in a way that's happening over and over and over.
00:55:10.230 --> 00:55:16.870
But I remember in that conversation being receptive, as receptive as I could be when I was 21 and confused.
00:55:17.190 --> 00:55:22.550
But I also remember in my head being like, Well, I just said this thing, and that guy touched your hair.
00:55:22.710 --> 00:55:24.630
So even in- Then why am I being coupled in with this?
00:55:24.950 --> 00:55:36.550
Right, like even in that conversation, I was like, I felt myself trying to, again, I don't think I was externalizing it, but I I certainly felt like, well, I'm a degree less racist, you know.
00:55:36.710 --> 00:55:36.950
Yeah.
00:55:37.110 --> 00:56:05.349
And I think that like what being in school with them, what going through uh 2020 and all of these, you know, these real moments where it was, I felt like for me, like like opportunities and moments that that it was necessary for me to like do real deep exploration of my relationship with race, was like uh you grow up, I grew up with the idea of racism being like you're a racist and you're bad.
00:56:05.510 --> 00:56:06.789
It's a it's a like it's a binary.
00:56:06.950 --> 00:56:07.910
You're racist or you're not.
00:56:08.309 --> 00:56:08.710
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:08.950 --> 00:56:12.070
And the reality being, like, I I'm a white person in America.
00:56:12.230 --> 00:56:14.630
Of course, I racism exists within me.
00:56:14.789 --> 00:56:16.309
Like, there's no way it doesn't.
00:56:16.390 --> 00:56:16.630
Yeah.
00:56:16.789 --> 00:56:31.670
And I think that like that was really important to recognize like like I am not, I will never be able to unlearn the the racist ideology and teaching of this country and this world.
00:56:31.829 --> 00:56:32.150
Yeah.
00:56:32.550 --> 00:56:47.349
So instead of trying to achieve, you know, white person perfection, it was like, how do I, how do I continue to to educate and also like be comfortable with the reality that, like you're saying, like, I will slip up.
00:56:47.510 --> 00:56:51.910
I will say something because I don't know where one person's line is that's not another person's line.
00:56:51.990 --> 00:56:52.870
You know what I mean?
00:56:53.110 --> 00:56:55.030
Um, and that's just the reality.
00:56:55.110 --> 00:57:11.590
And the best I can do is when and if someone has the um courage and space to like say, hey, that thing you said sat with me a little wrong or whatever, to like just shut the fuck up and listen and listen and change.
00:57:11.829 --> 00:57:12.230
Yeah.
00:57:12.470 --> 00:57:17.510
Because it's really nice to be really receptive and be a really good listener and sit on your hands.
00:57:17.670 --> 00:57:21.990
But then if you don't change, yeah, that's then then what's that?
00:57:22.230 --> 00:57:23.510
And again, it's like the blind spot.
00:57:23.670 --> 00:57:28.870
If you don't know you did something and then someone alerts you you did something and you don't change, then it's your responsibility.
00:57:29.030 --> 00:57:30.309
Yeah, you know what I mean?
00:57:30.550 --> 00:57:48.230
So, like the last thing I'd say about that right now is like one of the great fucking gifts of grad school was like learning how learning uh really profoundly, like what is my responsibility and what's not my responsibility.
00:57:48.470 --> 00:58:00.390
And and more than that being like how often my impulse might be to like jump in and help, but that is really patriarchal and pretty racist a lot of the times, to be like, I'm gonna fix this for you because I know how to do it.
00:58:00.550 --> 00:58:00.950
Yeah.
00:58:01.110 --> 00:58:07.910
And and because I know whether I'm conscious of it or not, that my position as a white person in society allots me a certain amount of power.
00:58:08.070 --> 00:58:08.150
Right.
00:58:08.390 --> 00:58:11.030
And that I think maybe get certain things done.
00:58:11.190 --> 00:58:11.349
Right.
00:58:11.510 --> 00:58:18.630
And it's like, but maybe this is more about how people are perceiving the situation versus who can smooth it out the fastest.
00:58:18.950 --> 00:58:34.390
So, like, so like when I'm in a show, like the show I just did, like uh the I would say it was probably 40% black actors and 60% white actors, and like I feel deeply comfortable when someone says, Hey, could you help?
00:58:34.470 --> 00:58:37.190
or hey, could you whatever, being like, yes, and going for it.
00:58:37.430 --> 00:58:41.269
But also like, I'm not gonna jump in unless someone asks me to.
00:58:42.070 --> 00:59:04.230
And and I think this is about race, but it's also about patriarchy and like being a big gigantic guy, like, you know, I I know I saw, I saw how the women in my class, I saw how the black folks in my class looked at my white male classmates when they would, you know, step on toes or jump in all the time or or fix it.
00:59:04.390 --> 00:59:06.710
And I was like, I do not want to be that guy.
00:59:06.789 --> 00:59:07.750
Yeah, you know what I mean?
00:59:07.910 --> 00:59:19.030
And like, and like that might not be the greatest motivation, but the truth is like it is it is it has become a lot easier for me to be like, I'm happy to not always have to be the savior.
00:59:19.190 --> 00:59:28.070
Yeah, I will be the tool that people ask me to be the moment they ask me to be it, but I'm not gonna assume I know what people need.
00:59:28.230 --> 00:59:32.550
Yeah, I'm not gonna assume I know what yeah, now I feel very differently in white spaces.
00:59:32.710 --> 00:59:36.710
If I'm around a bunch of white people, I will absolutely be like, you cannot fucking say that.
00:59:36.789 --> 00:59:37.030
Yeah, yeah.
00:59:37.190 --> 00:59:37.590
You know what I mean?
00:59:37.670 --> 00:59:39.190
Yeah, because that's my responsibility.
00:59:39.430 --> 00:59:41.510
Because if no one's gonna there is no one else here.
00:59:41.590 --> 00:59:44.789
So, like if I have that thought, I'll I'll jump in.
00:59:45.030 --> 00:59:45.510
It's true.
00:59:45.590 --> 00:59:48.630
It's there's this great book called White Supremacy and Me by Layla F.
00:59:48.710 --> 00:59:49.110
Said.
00:59:49.190 --> 00:59:54.550
She talks about that, which is white solidarity, which is how white people talk to each other about race when they're alone.
00:59:54.870 --> 01:00:01.430
And that that is actually the space where the most sort of like concretizing, is that the word?
01:00:02.309 --> 01:00:11.910
Like where you sort of like solidify your your bias because you are essentially going, is that okay to another person who is just as uninformed as you are?
01:00:12.150 --> 01:00:12.470
Right.
01:00:12.630 --> 01:00:16.789
Um I hope as two white people having this conversation right now, though, that we're not doing that.
01:00:16.870 --> 01:00:18.710
I think we're having a pretty open conversation about it.
01:00:18.950 --> 01:00:19.110
Right.
01:00:19.190 --> 01:00:21.990
But also it's like, it's like, like, are like frankly, like are you?
01:00:22.230 --> 01:00:23.110
Was that me doing it really?
01:00:24.150 --> 01:00:26.550
Frankly, it's like, is your black audience gonna get a lot out of this?
01:00:26.630 --> 01:00:26.870
Probably not.
01:00:26.950 --> 01:00:28.230
But like maybe some of your white audience.
01:00:28.870 --> 01:00:29.190
You know what I mean?
01:00:29.430 --> 01:00:32.309
Because like and and this is about gender, but I think it's related.
01:00:32.470 --> 01:00:50.309
I remember I remember my second year of grad school, we like did this whole thing where we split, we would have all school meetings, and we and we and we we we we did one about gender, and so all the women in the school met, and all the men in the school met to kind of like be a space where people could talk.
01:00:50.390 --> 01:00:53.590
And I think it was Oh wait, yeah, we did something like this too at NYU.
01:00:53.829 --> 01:00:54.150
Yeah, yeah.
01:00:54.309 --> 01:00:55.910
And it was just grad acting, but yeah.
01:00:56.070 --> 01:00:56.710
Oh, okay, yeah.
01:00:56.870 --> 01:01:02.070
For us, and it was it was it was I think tremendously helpful for the women, of course.
01:01:02.150 --> 01:01:06.230
And for the men, what became very clear very quickly was like I was one of the people leading with a couple other people.
01:01:06.470 --> 01:01:09.030
I was like, I am not equipped to talk about these things.
01:01:09.190 --> 01:01:12.230
Like, because people were saying things that I was like, that's so fucked up.
01:01:12.789 --> 01:01:16.870
But I'm we've said this was a space where people could talk honestly, blah, blah, blah.
01:01:17.269 --> 01:01:27.430
But there were some men who were in school, not necessarily my class, who I my first impulse was to be like, ugh, I can't deal with these guys, they're so sexist, they're so gross.
01:01:27.510 --> 01:01:27.910
Yeah, sure.
01:01:28.070 --> 01:01:36.550
And then I had the thought, and this is why I think it relates to race, I was like, okay, Jacob, if I don't deal with this, the options are a woman's gonna have to deal with it.
01:01:36.870 --> 01:01:39.190
Or no one's going to, and then they're never gonna change.
01:01:39.590 --> 01:02:02.070
And that was a real wake-up call to me of like when people who look like me say things that I find either morally abhorrent or just even ignorant, if I'm not the person to step in to be like, hey, we need to have a conversation about that, it's either never gonna be talked about and they're never gonna change, or the bonus is gonna fall on the person who they are actively being discriminatory against.
01:02:02.950 --> 01:02:03.750
You know what I mean?
01:02:03.910 --> 01:02:06.950
Um, and that really was an impactful moment for me.
01:02:07.269 --> 01:02:07.670
That's great.
01:02:07.829 --> 01:02:08.309
Yeah.
01:02:08.550 --> 01:02:10.550
Well, Jacob, that's the end of the episode.
01:02:10.630 --> 01:02:12.150
Um, anything you want to plug?
01:02:12.309 --> 01:02:14.789
Anything going on right now that you're working on?
01:02:15.349 --> 01:02:18.630
Um I know you just got off.
01:02:18.950 --> 01:02:22.630
I'm honestly no, like I the last year was the most I've ever worked as an actor.
01:02:23.030 --> 01:02:23.269
Really?
01:02:23.510 --> 01:02:24.950
The last like It's the least I worked.
01:02:25.269 --> 01:02:26.710
The last like 14 months.
01:02:26.950 --> 01:02:31.910
Um, and so I'm back in the city and I have nothing lined up, and it's really, really awesome.
01:02:32.150 --> 01:02:32.789
Good for you.
01:02:33.030 --> 01:02:42.710
Um my partner who's a dancer is in this incre is about to, they're about to open this incredible dance theater silent disco piece called The Circuit that's gonna be in Dumbo.
01:02:43.030 --> 01:02:44.710
I think it's gonna be really cool.
01:02:44.870 --> 01:02:47.510
So I'll plug her because she's fucking awesome.
01:02:47.750 --> 01:02:48.309
Awesome.
01:02:48.550 --> 01:02:53.430
Um, yeah, I guess just plugging, having these more kind of conversations.
01:02:53.590 --> 01:02:53.750
Yeah.
01:02:53.910 --> 01:02:54.470
You know what I mean?
01:02:54.710 --> 01:02:55.110
I love it.
01:02:55.349 --> 01:02:56.309
Okay, bye.
01:02:58.150 --> 01:02:58.870
All right, y'all.
01:02:58.950 --> 01:03:02.309
That's this week's episode of the Working Class Acts podcast.
01:03:02.550 --> 01:03:04.390
We'll see you next week.
01:03:04.710 --> 01:03:05.110
Bye!