343: Why One-Off DEI Training Backfires with Lily Zheng

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Okay, quick question, Peope. Have you ever walked out of
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a DEI training thinking Wow, that was powerful and then
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showed up to work on Monday and realized nothing actually changed.
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Same system, same dynamics, same problems. Yeah, today we're talking
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about why that happens. Hey, friends, welcome back to work Day,
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Play Day with improve It. I am your host, Aaron
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Deal and this is the podcast where we talk about
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leadership and culture like real humans who care and are
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still figuring it out. This month on the show, we
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are focused on leadership now, not leadership on paper, leadership
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in practice, leadership when things are uncomfortable, nuanced, and sometimes
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politically charged. And today's conversation is one leader's really need
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to hear. This episode is called why one off DEI
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Training Backfires because so many organizations genuinely want to do
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the right thing. They bring in a training, it goes
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to workshop, they make a big announcement, and then they
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quietly hope that culture will take care of itself. And
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when it doesn't, leaders feel frustrated, employees feel unheard, and
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DEI starts to feel like a problem instead of a solution.
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That's why I am so excited about today's guest. Lily
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Zang is a no nonsense strategist, consultant and author who
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helps leaders but workplaces that actually work for everyone. Lily
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is the creator of the Fair Framework, an evidence based
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approach to the next evolution of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
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Their work has been featured in Harvard Business Review, The
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New York Times, and in PR. They are also the
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best selling author of Deed Constructed, Reconstructing DEI and Fixing Fairness.
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And what I love about Lily is that they bring
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clarity and practicality to a space that often gets overwhelmed
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by noise. Now, before we jump in, I want to
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do a quick pause, because if this conversation is resonating,
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I want you to know that we offer a highly
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interactive leadership workshop that helps teams turn insight into action.
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The company that I founded and run, improve It is
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a improv and fused talent development company for the new
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generation of work and this workshop is a two hour
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experience in person for up to one hundred people or
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can be bupped to fifty people virtually on zoom Now.
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Our seasoned improv facilitators leave participants through high energy activities
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and customized debriefs centered around one powerful thesis statement, communication
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plus its operation equals motivation. Now participants will learn how
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to communicate effectively with their team, how to inspire and
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empower peers through their words and actions, and motivate the
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people around them to set higher goals and actually achieve more.
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All right, let's get into it. Here's the problem, y'all.
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Many organizations treat DEI like an event instead of a
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leadership practice. One training, one workshop, one moment of awareness,
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a box checked. Then everybody goes back to business as
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usual and leaders are left wondering why things feel awkward, tense,
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or even worse after the training than before. Research shows
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that one off DEI training, especially when it focuses only
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on awareness or bias, can actually increase defensiveness and disengagement
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when it's not paired with systems change and leadership accountability.
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So this is not just an effective Sometimes it backfires.
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And this is why talking with Lily today matters so much,
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because they don't just point out what went wrong. They
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help leaders understand what to do differently. Now here's the epiphany.
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DEI does not fail because people do not care. It
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fails because leaders look for shortcuts. We love in a
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world that loves quick wins and good optics. But culture
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change does not happen on a highlightrail. Y'all. Data shows
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that organizations that make sustained progress and fairness and belonging
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treat DEI as ongoing leadership work, not as a one
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time intervention. Think of it like leadership fitness. You know,
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you don't go to one workout and expect lifelong strength.
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All right, Still got a flabby arm, and I'm going
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to the gym ten times a month. Now, that's not
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how bodies work, and it's not how organizations work either.
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The solution is not more training alone. The solution is leadership, accountability, systems, change,
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and clarity around what fairness actually means. And Lily, this
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is where your fair framework really shifts the conversation. Let's
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get to today's playdate with Lily Zang. Okay, peepe I
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don't even know if you're ready. Oh, by the way, Lily,
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we call our peep the peeps community, So welcome, Welcome
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to the peepes.
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Okay, like like like the little marshmallow birds.
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Like the mallow like where my peep's at? Yeah, like
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those we should give those away. Actually this spring we're
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going to do that excellent marketing. Yeah, we'll mix some shirts,
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but this is there's a whole reason behind it. We've
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officially coerced over fifty four thousand people to chicken dance
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at work. It's a whole thing. And so the Peeps
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community is our community. But we, as the Peep leader,
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are thrilled that you are here right now. I'm so excited.
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Let's let's do this because I want to just start
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by starting off with a one word intention that you
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either want to give or receive during our time together today.
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What's a word that comes to mind for you?
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Oh gosh, well we were, we were throwing around the
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word earlier.
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So fun.
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Let's have fun, have a good time. Let's let's enjoy
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this conversation.
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I'm happy enjoying it. Like you said, I wish we
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hit record earlier because I was, like I could, But
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you know what that was for us. Sometimes we do
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things for the peeps. That was for us. Okay, so
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let me ask you this, where are we playing at
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this play date today? Like, if we could envision ourselves
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somewhere on a play date, where are we?
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Ooh? Like, like, I don't know if you were to
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like transport the listeners of the conversation to some like
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stage or something. Oh okay, okay, let's see a big
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old open meadow, like a like a giant grassy meadow.
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How about that.
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I love a giant grassy meadow. And is it just
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like open space for days with trees and grass.
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Well, the first thing that came to mind is like, uh,
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a sound of music, you know, like like just like
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in the mountains, you know, like like lots of lots
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of singing white girls and goodbyes. Exactly.
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Okay, well, we can make that happen. We're here for that.
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We're on the we're on the grassy meadow today, just
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having fun. Okay, that's what we're here to do at
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this play date. So let's just let's just start off.
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Let's go straight into it, because I love that you
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have a framework, and I love that you said you're
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like I had I told a podcast host to dissect
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my framework. I just want to hear about. We'll see
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what happens. Let's talk about the fair framework. What is
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the fair framework?
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Yeah? Yeah, okay, Well, let's let's uh set the stage
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a little more. So, first of all, I feel like
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seventy five percent of people their eyes glaze over when
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you say the word framework, because these are just boring,
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you know, words that are lined up next to each other,
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and you're like, why is this another you know, stale,
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abstract thing that's trying to tell me how to live
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my life?
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Right?
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Like, what's the point? Why am I learning about this?
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So we'll kind of shelve the framework for like ten seconds,
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and I'll talk a bit about like why we need it?
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Can I can I make a new word for it
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for you for this?
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Yeah?
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Sure, for today's since you're on a play day, it's
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maybe the playbook. The playbook? Okay.
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You know it's funny you say that because I happen
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to be wearing like a like a LinkedIn Learning instructor
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T shirt right now. And the course that I taught
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on LinkedIn Learning was a playbook to achieve equity anywhere.
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There you go.
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So it's funny you mentioned that because I've already been
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making playbooks anyways. So why do we need a playbook? Right?
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Why do we need this? Our workplaces are incredibly broken
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for pretty much everybody. I have a series of fun
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and depressing questions I like asking people, So I'll ask
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you some what percent? What percent of American workers do
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you think have experienced discrimination?
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Eighty five to ninety ooh so.
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Close, ninety one, ninety one, ninety one, yeah, kay, not great, Yay,
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it's everybody. Yeah, it's everybody. And you know, when you
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look at the rates of discrimination over time, they're not
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getting better, Like, they're just not getting better. Like, man,
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there there was a study that came out in like
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twenty twenty sixteen or something that looked at rates of
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discrimination against black Americans between nineteen ninety and twenty fifth.
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Team.
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It is a flat line. It hasn't gotten better. Right,
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Our workplaces are just as bad today as they were fifteen,
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twenty twenty five years ago, more than that. So you know,
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when we look at the workplace around us, right, we
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have this weird upside down feeling of thinking, well, people
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are talking more and more about this thing called diversity, equity,
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inclusion DEI. Right. People are talking about fairness, we're talking
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about justice, we're talking about belonging. We're talking about all
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these words that feel really good and that you know,
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maybe we didn't use as much twenty years ago. And
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then when you look at the cold, hard numbers, simultaneously,
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nothing's getting better. And so you know, for me and
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for a lot of practitioners in this field, for social scientists,
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we've been tearing our hair out basically asking ourselves, how
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is it possible that we could talk so much about
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this that we could you know, create an entire industry
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around talking about these things and trying to fix these things,
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and to have the problems just go unfixed.
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Yeah.
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So this framework, right, this fair framework, is my latest
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attempt to try to unstick us from this stagnant status quo, right,
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to actually restart progress, to make it so discrimination rates
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go down, so people actually can get back onto the
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American dream, so people can actually regain access to opportunities,
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so that people can work in workplaces that work for them.
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I mean, like, like, this is a rocket science. And
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I'm also like, you know, not saying things that are
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particularly aspirational, like geez, I sure hope that people can
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expect to go to work and get their work done
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and get paid, you know, a wage that allows them
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to survive. Like yeah, you know, I'm just asking for
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the moon apparently.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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But the framework is how we do that, right, and
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specifically is how we break out of the last two
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to three decades of spinning around in circles without achieving
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real change. And I'm happy to dive into the framework too,
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But like that, why, right, The reason why we need
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that framework, I think is really important to set first.
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Okay, let's talk about that. Why do I think when
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you got into this data, right, this data that is
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terrifying and sad that we've been on this flat line
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and that ninety one percent of us are truly not
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feeling welcomed or safe, psychologically safe or even safe period
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in our workspaces. Yeah, that's a pretty nice tone of
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the why, Lily. Okay, that right there is like just
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common decency, human decency, right, And I think too, just
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from from where we're sitting right now, I want to
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talk about this because your framework, okay, is actually a
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little bit different from the legacy DEI approaches that we've
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experienced in the past. Let's just talk about that. How
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is it different?
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Yeah? Yeah, yeah, okay. Well I can't see the listeners
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right now, but I'll ask you.
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How you can feel them?
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You can, I can feel them. I can feel them.
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R Really, So if you're listening to this right now,
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just imagine that I'm asking you this question, feel free
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to like raise your hand or whatever. Right, So, like,
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like raise your hand. If you've ever been to let's say,
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a cultural heritage celebration and raising my hand, or a
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sixty minute or ninety minute unconscious bias training and raising
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my hand, or a retreat where you bring in a
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speaker to talk about how important a commitment to diversity,
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equity and inclusion is. I'm raising my handd I've also
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been that speaker sometimes. So you know the playbook, right,
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the old playbook the way we achieve DEI in the past,
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has been relentlessly focused on these kinds of interventions, these
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kinds of solutions.
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Right.
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We tend to solve problems with trainings, with speakers, with
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pretty commitments, with a full events calendar that's full of
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you know what lots of practitioners kind of derisively call food,
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flags and fun, right, and that's just kind of all
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we do, yeah, over and over and over again. Right,
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we just say, like, well, we brought in a speaker,
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we did an event with food, flags and fun. So
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now let's just kind of spin the dial and see
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which one of these will do next, and then we'll
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do it again. Yeah, and then we'll do it again,
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and then we'll do it again.
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Yeah.
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And meanwhile their workers are like, Wow, I haven't been
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promoted in six years. Wow. I think the men are
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still speaking over me in the meetings. Wow. I think
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I've just been discriminated against for the tenth time this week. Wow,
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my manager's an asshole. Wow. I don't think I'm getting
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paid fairly. And you know you tell me, right, like,
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do you think a ninety minute training fixes any of this?
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No?
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Of course not right. And I say this as someone
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that has provided that training for many, many years. Right,
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I spent the first good chunk of my career trying
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to train leaders to do different and to train workplaces
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to do different. But I quickly found that what leaders
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were requesting from me wasn't what I believe and what
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the research shows actually worked. So as a practitioner, I
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was basically saying, like, look, right, if you want to
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use training, it's not a matter of the perfect training,
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because there's nothing I can do in ninety minutes that'll
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fix your workplace. Right, It's about what you do before
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and after the training. It's how you set it up,
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it's how you incentivize it. It's how you align your
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existing policies and practices and processes with what I'm teaching
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in the training. It's how you follow up after the
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training to talk to your managers and make sure that
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there's behavior change. Are you willing to do those things?
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And the leaders I talked to were like, maybe not, Lily,
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but we'd still love you to come in for sixty
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minutes and do a little song and a dance.
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Right right right.
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We'll even pay you.
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We went the fun flags and what was it?
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Fun flags and food flags and fun food.
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Flags and fun I love I've never heard that, and
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I will always quote you on that. That iss soe.
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Well, it's not my term. People have been using it forever,
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but sure you can say you heard about it.
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I heard it from Lily. I hope you're enjoying my
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conversation with Lily Zang. We'll be right back after a
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quick bak from our sponsors. Thank you for supporting those
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who support the show. You're listening to Work Day, Play
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Day on the Passion Struck Network. Now back to my
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conversation with Lily Zang. This is so important to dissect
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because I remember there was this huge rush in twenty
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twenty to do this. Yes, I know for a fact
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I have many friends in the DEI space who felt
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very similar to you, who felt like, Okay, this is
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you know, I'm going to do this. However, I want
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to make sure exactly what you're saying. There's a there's
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a protocol before you're setting it up for me, and
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you're also having a legacy after I leave. It's not
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just this one and done training. But what what do
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you think the biggest misconception was even at that time
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for the leaders asking you to do the food flags
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and fun like, Yeah, what was the misconception there?
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Okay, So, depending on whether I'm having a good day
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or a bad day, I either think of it as
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a misconception or I think of it as cynicism.
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Okay, let's just say it.
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Am I giving leaders the benefit of the doubt today, right, Well.
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Give me both sides. We want both sides.
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Okay, Okay, okay, So the best possible leader, right, they're
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a good person, they care about their people, they want
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to do the right thing. They've heard about this DEI thing.
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They've heard about, you know, the protest after the murder
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of George Floyd. They think, well, racism. Racism is a
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bad thing. I don't want to hear in my company.
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I got to fix it. How do I fix it?
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I have no idea. Well, it seems like my employees
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are really eager for something that I can show them
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really fast to demonstrate my commitment. I'm just gonna get
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a Google search right, anti racism workshop, right, because you
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know I've heard that great. I see a list of names.
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I'll just contact one of them and be like, hey,
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can you come in and see if there's something going
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on wrong and fix my stuff? Then they bring someone
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in that someone is probably really good at their job.
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They're like, yes, anti racism. You know, racism is terrible.
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It's important that we work together to end it. You know, like,
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here's some words you can say, here's some practices you
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can do, you know, like, good luck, I believe in you.
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The leader's like, all right, I did it. You know,
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like we have to uphold our commitment to an anti
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racist culture. We can do that, right. A couple of
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weeks past, their employees are like, Okay, it was a
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good training. A couple more weeks past, and then their
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employees are like, so, you know, our managers are still
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kind of saying awful stuff and meetings? Right, are we
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going to do something about that? A couple more weeks past,
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I don't think I'm getting paid fairly. Were we going
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to do something about that?
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Right?
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Or like our promotions process is super broken, our hiring
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process is not looking very good. Why is our entire
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leadership team made of white dudes? Are we going to
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do anything about this? And the leader suddenly finds themselves like,
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you know, staring down the gun barrel of saying like,
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oh okay, So when I said I wanted to solve racism,
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I didn't realize that I'd actually like have to do
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things about it, right, Like, now there's a lot of
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pressure on me to change all of these aspects of
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my workplace. That's a lot of work, and we kind
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of have our financial targets to meet this year. So
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like I'll hire a person to do it and like
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hope that they can make some progress by next year. Right,
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that's even the most well intentioned of leaders.
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Yep.
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Now, now let's tell the story from the cynical, evil
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asshole leader, right, yeah, give us right? Right?
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Right?
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So man, you know, like I'm like, what a waste
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of time my employees are pissed at me again, and
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it's fine, right, Like I have a chance to earn
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some brownie points. This is just a pr exercise. And
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so what I can do is I'll just bring in someone.
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And I know that if I just keep on putting
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people in front of my employees, you know, to entertain them,
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this is food and circuses, and so you know, they'll
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just keep on believing in me and believing that we're
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going to do something. But you know how much it
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costs actually do a pay equity on it, Way too much.
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You know how much it cost actually fix our hiring process,
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probably too much. You know how much it costs to
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bring in a speaker once every year for an hour?
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Not much at all. So I'll just keep doing that, right,
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Just doing that, it's really cheap. The ROI is great.
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I just have to shell out five K once a year, right,
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or maybe even ten K if I'm feeling generous. And
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then you know, if people don't like it, or if
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they lose trust or they lose faith, well, good thing,
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I'm going to be laying off ten percent of them
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every year anyways, So it doesn't really matter, and I
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can just get away with them. This hurts.
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It hurts.
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I mean it hurts so bad because I think a
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lot of people listening to this, I mean we've had
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those doubts before, yeah, right, and and perhaps we've we've
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we've worked under leaders like that before, where you know,
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we think, look, at the end of the day, is
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this not just appeasement? Do you actually not care about people?
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Right?
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And you just see us as numbers on a spreadsheet, right,
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like costs to cut year after year. And I think
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as the you know, DEI movement, as the wave of
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interest in DEI has kind of stagnated and soured over
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the last few years, I think people are more and
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more skeptical when they've seeing leaders be so callous towards
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their workforce. And you know, frankly, I actually think it's
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a really good thing because now when leaders say like, hey,
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we care, we're committed, people don't think about you know, like, oh,
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you're going to finally solve racism. They think, didn't you
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just lay off ten percent of us like two weeks ago?
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Right?
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And that skepticism that's good, that's really good. I think
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we need to be holding our leader's feet to the
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fire to make sure that if our workplaces claim to
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care about people that they actually follow through with their actions.
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Oh ma'am, that's the church, that's the choir going yes, okay,
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so good. I'm glad I asked that question. I'm glad
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you gave both examples because I just we needed both
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sides on their best day and on the on the
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truest day. And there's so many great listen when we're
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talking about leaders papes, I'm just going to speak to
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the papes real quick. We know y'all love your people.
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We're talking about the people at the top, talking about
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the leadership top down. It is a trickle effect. And
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you listening today, you might not be the CEO. You
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might be the chief people officer, the chief HR officer,
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whatever it may be. You have the ability to do
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exactly what Lily is mentioning and use your voice to
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help make this change. We need more voices making change.
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We need more people speaking up like Lily. And I
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told Lially this before we have recorded. I have been
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following you on LinkedIn for a long time. I don't
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even know we got to connect to Lily. Can we
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please connect now?
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Oh yeah, sure, sure? You know LinkedIn has a thirty
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thousand people connection limit and I'm at like twenty nine
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nine hundred something, so I'm like, okay, I know you
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get one, get one.
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We need each other. Okay, Well I have.
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To talk to people before i send the connection request
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now because otherwise I'm gonna use my last hundred spots
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and I need to start getting rid of people.
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I get it, I get it, but we need your
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voice on there. We need it out. And Claire and
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I've been following up. And if you are not following
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Lily on LinkedIn, stop what you're doing. Go into your
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LinkedIn app and hit follow because the content is so
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good and you practice what you preach. And I want
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everyone here to know this is just just this is
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a starting conversation. Your work goes deep. Your work is
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in that framework slash playbook. Your work is going to
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be your project here on earth like that is your legacy.
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Is what you are doing is helping. And I have this.
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I don't know who said this either. I can't give
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them credit, but there's an acronympe help one person every day.
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And if you, Lily, could just even keep that in
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your back pocket, because I'm sure you feel like you're
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screaming into a void and no one's listening. But if
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you truly help one person from this show today to
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go to their leadership and make the case or DEI
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at the top for not discontinuing their DEI program in
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their organization, for making a stand and taking a stand
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to make sure people feel seen, hurt and valued. You
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have done your job.
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Friend, M Well, why don't why don't we actually talk
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a bit about that?
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Right?
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Like?
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How? Because I think you know, I'm willing to bet
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almost everyone listening here is thinking like, okay, well, I
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want to be one of those good leaders. I want
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to at least, you know, do my best and ideally
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make a difference and not just admire the problem. Right,
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I want to do differently, So how do I do that?
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How do you go to your senior leadership? How do
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you go to your c suite and actually make the case.
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And you know, the reason why I'm framing the question
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like this is because I spend all day advising those
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kinds of leaders on how to make that case. And
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the landscape's changed a lot over the last couple of years. Right,
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I think the pr exercise of DEI like that rationalis
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is kind of going away a lot of leaders are thinking, like, look,
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you know it's risky. I don't want to put myself
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out there. I don't want to even say the acronym.
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I think there was a recent study by like Gravity
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Research or something that found that mentions of DEI dropped
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by like ninety ninety two percent, ninety four percent something
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like that in the last year. Companies are not even
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using the acronym. They're terrified. And so if you're an
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internal leader, right, and you're feeling I don't know, maybe
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a little despair saying like, I guess the work is
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behind us. I guess we're only going to get worse
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from here. I think my advice to you is to
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move away from saying like DEI is an ideology that
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I'm here to champion, and instead say DEI or whatever
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we want to call it, whether fair or something else,
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is problem solving. We're here to solve the problems that
480
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.480
our people are facing, regardless of how you want to
481
00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:00.559
describe that acronym. Right, it doesn't matter if people have
482
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:05.759
awful managers. If people's managers aren't collaborating, they're not transparent,
483
00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:08.079
they're not communicating well, they don't have those soft skills,
484
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.880
then you've got to fix that because that has real costs.
485
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:18.400
Those costs can be translated into turnover, into retention risks,
486
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:23.799
into a lack of succession planning, into brand damage, into
487
00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:26.799
all sorts of negative outcomes. And so you can say, look,
488
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:29.160
you know, our workplace is full of problems. Every single
489
00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:33.240
workplace is. Whether it's with your culture, your processes, your practices,
490
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:36.839
your people, your strategy, You've got problems, and those problems
491
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:40.599
are negatively impacting your people. If you solve those problems
492
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:44.839
for your people, you make your workplace better and ultimately,
493
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:48.440
you know, you help your workplace succeed more. Now, twenty
494
00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:51.920
years ago we called this a business case for diversity.
495
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:54.240
I don't care what you call it these days, right
496
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:57.720
these days, I think the most important thing that we
497
00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:00.319
do is that we make our workplaces better or for
498
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.440
the people in them, and that needs to be our
499
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:07.480
north star at all times. Right, Like enough with this
500
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:13.279
abstract like like you know, belonging isn't just a shiny
501
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:15.359
word that we put on a pedestal, right, like like
502
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:18.240
scrap that it doesn't matter, right, The language is a
503
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:20.440
means to an end. What matters is that there are
504
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:23.319
real people in your workplace. You're having a really bad time,
505
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:27.640
and it's probably partially because of workplace design and partially
506
00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.599
because they are being discriminated against or treated worse because
507
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.920
of who they are. So understand those problems really well.
508
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:36.559
Learn what's going on in your workplace, put out some surveys,
509
00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:39.279
I don't know, bringing a consultant, and once you understand
510
00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:42.359
what's going on in your workplace, fix it. Yeah, fix
511
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:45.799
it however you can, whether that's hiring new people, changing
512
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:51.720
your policy, organizational change management. I'll leave it up to y'all, right,
513
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:54.400
and the consultants you choose to work with.
514
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:58.960
Yeah, yeah, and the consultants yeah, But you don't need
515
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:02.680
consultancy the thing, right, Like, ultimately, it's about like are
516
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:04.440
you willing to solve your problems?
517
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.119
And like that that's the question at the end of
518
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:10.039
the day. It's not about ideology, it's not about political affiliation.
519
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.279
Are you willing to solve your problems? Yes or no?
520
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:14.799
If the answer is no, you probably shouldn't be listening
521
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:17.279
to this conversation. If the answer is yes, there's so
522
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:19.599
much you can do about it. I think that's where
523
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:23.480
we need to be pushing this dialogue away from the
524
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:26.720
kinds of I don't know culture war either, or you're
525
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:29.480
a good person or a bad person, and just towards this,
526
00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:33.400
like our workplaces suck and they need to suck less.
527
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:36.359
Right now, there you go, work day played, it is,
528
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:40.680
Yet for that reason two, we need to have more fun. Okay,
529
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.880
I'm going to take this very I'm going to yes
530
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.799
and you that's what we say an improv. Okay, I'm
531
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:53.759
going to say yes to everything Lily said, and I'm pausing.
532
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:55.839
This is a great pause because I'm just going to
533
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:56.200
go there.
534
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:58.000
You got to figure out your yes, en, I got to.
535
00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:01.440
Figure out my yes. And okay I want I literally
536
00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.799
love what you said because it's a problem solving solution.
537
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:08.160
We get so worked up about these semantics, like these
538
00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:14.480
stupid semantics. All human beings just want to feel loved.
539
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:20.160
And what if you, the people listening today, could zoom
540
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:22.920
out a little bit and you could say, what was
541
00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:26.200
my greatest gift on this earth? And what if your
542
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.319
greatest gift on this earth was leaving a legacy where
543
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.519
you made people feel important, where you made you made
544
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.319
people feel like they had a sign around their next
545
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:38.599
This is cheesy as hell, Lily, that says, make me
546
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:43.279
feel important, because if they felt that way, wouldn't that
547
00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:46.400
change everything about how they showed up and what that
548
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:50.319
did to productivity and what productivity did for whatever your
549
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:53.599
product service, whatever your mission is for the world. But
550
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:55.680
it could start with you, and if you was just
551
00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:58.559
zoom out just a little bit. I've been I've been
552
00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:05.799
thinking a lot about just the afterlife. Just let you know,
553
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:09.440
small things, what's the meaning of it. But I've been
554
00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:13.799
I've been really thinking a lot about the purpose for
555
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.359
every human on this earth. And I've had some grief
556
00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:23.240
lately of my own, honestly, and it's really making me
557
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.920
just question, what do I want to leave here? What
558
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:30.079
do I as a human being want to leave? What legacy?
559
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:34.559
What do I want to help one person do? And so, Lily,
560
00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:39.960
what you're doing is helping coach and consult leaders to
561
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:43.079
leave a legacy. Like you're reading to zoom out on
562
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:46.440
what you do. You're not helping with di scrap that
563
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:49.480
if that's like too samanical for you, right, not you,
564
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:56.359
but people listening, right you are literally helping people leave
565
00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:01.039
an impact on other human beings that can make or
566
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:03.880
break their life and their time here on Earth, and
567
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:07.599
that's just, that's real, that's real spirituals she got real WU.
568
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:11.400
But I I am just I'm thinking about your work
569
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:16.279
as a whole because at some point I think people
570
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:18.920
are going to care less about the words used. We
571
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:23.359
all want the same thing, and your work is leaving
572
00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:29.039
lasting impacts. The people that hire you want to leave
573
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:31.880
a legacy. They recognize there's a problem.
574
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:35.599
I think. So so you know, it's it's funny you
575
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:38.519
mentioned this because I think about very similar things too, right,
576
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:44.359
And and when it comes to the way, no, no,
577
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:47.599
it's it's really relevant because when you talk to leaders,
578
00:32:48.039 --> 00:32:50.759
you know, I find that, yes, a lot of them
579
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.680
are are are obsessed in some way with legacy. And
580
00:32:55.400 --> 00:33:01.720
I think sometimes people stumble in that obsession and think,
581
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:06.519
you know, I'm building a legacy for myself. I need
582
00:33:06.519 --> 00:33:11.839
to exploit people to create that legacy of mine. Right
583
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:14.480
And when you look at some of the some of
584
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:16.880
the titans of industry, right like some of the biggest
585
00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:20.839
and most evil workplaces right now, right like, like this
586
00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:24.079
is the mentality at the top, right, the reason leaders
587
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:26.960
can be so callous and lay off you know, ten percent,
588
00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:29.559
twenty percent of their workplace every couple of months is
589
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.920
precisely because they're obsessed with that legacy. They think, you know,
590
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.799
the only way I can build this, you know, tower
591
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:39.079
to the heavens is if I run all the people
592
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.119
as part of my organization into the ground and extract
593
00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:45.799
every last piece of value from them. And I find
594
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:50.160
it to be a really empty endeavor because ultimately, and
595
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:52.920
the leaders that I think get it right that like,
596
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.480
the leaders that understand this have realized this, But ultimately,
597
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:02.839
the company you're building, right, the shareholder profit you're creating, like,
598
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:05.680
that's the weirdly ephemeral stuff. That's the stuff that no
599
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.519
one's going to remember in one hundred years, two hundred years.
600
00:34:09.639 --> 00:34:13.679
It's the fact that you're doing this work alongside people, right,
601
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.800
making the world better for people. I feel like that's
602
00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:19.480
the legacy that maybe, first of all, our society doesn't
603
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.559
do a good enough job recognizing, and so you know,
604
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:26.599
collectively we've got a culture problem here. But I think
605
00:34:26.679 --> 00:34:30.159
like that's the work that more important than legacy, feels meaningful,
606
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:34.519
yeah to leaders, right, Like when people are old on
607
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:38.440
their deathbed, right in your nineties or your hundreds or
608
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:40.280
however long people end up living. By the time we
609
00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:43.000
all die, right, they're not going to think. Man, when
610
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:46.360
I was forty, you know, I made sixty trillion dollars
611
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:49.400
of shareholder value. No one's gonna say it. I can't.
612
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:52.119
I'm so glad I got it on that equity, you know,
613
00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:58.039
right right exactly, like like the things that connect us, right,
614
00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.840
like the things that leave a mark are like I
615
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:03.880
help so many people, Like I made the world such
616
00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:07.079
a good place, and you know, I feel really sad
617
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:10.119
for some of the leaders that have like neutered or
618
00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:12.599
killed off that part of themselves.
619
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:14.840
To say, like I need to turn off my empathy.
620
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:17.199
I need to turn off my connection to community. I
621
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:19.679
need to turn off my connection to my friends, my family,
622
00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:22.880
my loved ones, you know, all because I need to
623
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:26.840
make number go up. Yes, right, Like it's it's it's
624
00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:29.400
not a way to live. And you know, there's also
625
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.039
the fact that it's destroying our planet and destroying you know,
626
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:34.320
our communities and all that too. But like, even if
627
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.320
we're just talking about the personal perspective, it's a terrible
628
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:39.679
way to live. And I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
629
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:43.360
Ego ego, it's ego. It's literally an ego based way
630
00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:46.360
to live. And I think the legacy that I feel
631
00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:48.679
like a lot of our community because Lily, we've had
632
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:52.320
a great community here the Papes. The Papes deeply care
633
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:57.320
like they deeply care for the individuals when they when
634
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.800
somebody calls you, I hope it's because they genuinely care.
635
00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:03.599
If they've been told to call you, I'm sure it's
636
00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:07.880
a different story. But for us too, with the work
637
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:11.239
that improve it does, when somebody calls us, it's because
638
00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:16.480
they want something different for their people. They care genuinely.
639
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:19.280
They're they're putting their own ego to the side and
640
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:22.800
they're stepping in and they're saying, I want my people
641
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:28.440
to feel a certain way. And that's that's the higher self.
642
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:32.480
That's the person that's the leader, leading with their full
643
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:37.159
highest intention. And when they lead from that place, I mean,
644
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.679
you can just step out of like the semantics of work,
645
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:45.199
the like I'm gonna say, three D leadership and maybe
646
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:48.239
get a little bit in the five D leadership. Okay,
647
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:52.679
when you can look out versus like in it, you
648
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:57.000
can see that what Lily is doing and the work
649
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:00.599
that you do in your consulting practice, work that you
650
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:05.360
put out on LinkedIn, is doing for human beings and
651
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:08.639
even if today we hit one person with this message
652
00:37:08.679 --> 00:37:11.400
and they feel it, then this is the job done.
653
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:14.360
Because it is not easy the work that you do.
654
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:20.679
You get backlash. I've seen it, and you're you are
655
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:24.320
standing strong in your voice. So kudos to you for
656
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:26.840
doing that. I hope you own that and feel that
657
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:31.320
because you it's a hot topic right now and you're
658
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:32.559
owning it with grace.
659
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:33.840
Yeah.
660
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:36.719
Yeah, it's it's a it's a hard topic and I
661
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:40.119
wish I wish it wasn't. You know, Like sometimes when
662
00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:44.880
I think about this work, you know, sometimes I hear
663
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:49.280
all the vitriol around it and it confuses me, right
664
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:52.719
because you know, I look around and some of the
665
00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:57.280
people who are most angry about this work, they're suffering
666
00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:01.519
too in their workplaces. They've just convey into themselves that
667
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:05.280
the pie is a tiny thing and anymore for anyone
668
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:09.599
else means less for them. It's it's really unfortunate because
669
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:12.480
I think they've kind of convinced themselves that a better
670
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:16.119
world is not possible that you know, however, we have
671
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:18.360
it now is the best it's going to get. And
672
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:21.360
we just need to retreat in ourselves and fight to
673
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:26.000
not lose. And you know, like I feel like this
674
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:31.159
this applies to not only workplaces, but like business, to life,
675
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.400
to everything. When you're fighting to not lose, it's not
676
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:38.559
a very good way to live. Like, it's not a
677
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:41.159
joyful way to live. It's not a healthy way to live.
678
00:38:41.559 --> 00:38:45.719
You end up terrified, You end up scared, You end
679
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:49.039
up you know, like possessive of what you have, and
680
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:52.159
you close your mind off to the possibility of better.
681
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:56.400
And so if instead we can ask ourselves not what
682
00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:59.239
do you stand to lose if things change, but rather
683
00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:02.599
what do you stand to gain if things get better?
684
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:07.079
I think, you know, we can go across you know,
685
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:09.920
these boundaries between our groups or you know, our our
686
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:13.159
political beliefs or whatever, and to start saying like, well,
687
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:14.719
what what can we do together?
688
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:15.119
Right?
689
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:20.280
How can we work with our neighbors, our colleagues, our leaders,
690
00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:23.400
and you know, say, hey, you know we might disagree
691
00:39:23.480 --> 00:39:26.119
on how to fix things, but let's look around. This
692
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:29.119
isn't the best we deserve. We deserve better. And if
693
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.079
you agree with me, and how are we going to
694
00:39:31.159 --> 00:39:32.800
make it? How are we going to make it better?
695
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.960
And and and that's what I wish we can bring
696
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:39.559
to this conversation more, you know, not who has it worse,
697
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:43.000
because there's no way to answer that question, at least
698
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:45.000
not in the way that people will agree with, right,
699
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:48.079
And rather, it doesn't matter who has it worse. We
700
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:50.239
all have it pretty bad right now, Like like you
701
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:54.599
see the world around us, it's terrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
702
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:57.800
it's a dumpster fire, you know. And and do we
703
00:39:57.880 --> 00:39:58.440
deserve that?
704
00:39:58.960 --> 00:39:59.039
No?
705
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:01.199
I think we all deserve better. Every single person in
706
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:06.400
the world deserves, you know, home to sleep in, right,
707
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:09.679
food on the table, opportunity, ways to survive and thrive.
708
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:11.920
You know, we all deserve these things and we don't
709
00:40:11.960 --> 00:40:14.840
have them. And that's a tragedy and there's a whole
710
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:16.440
lot of us and we can do something about it.
711
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:19.000
How are we going to do that? That's right, That's
712
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:20.480
a conversation we can have every day.
713
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:25.159
I love that, and I love the juxtaposition really there.
714
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:26.920
And I'm gonna say the word again. People get all
715
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:31.320
sweaty armpits when I say it, love versus fear and
716
00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:34.679
love can exist at work, y'all. Okay, it can exist,
717
00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:38.480
and it exists. And you what I think you're mentioning,
718
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:41.159
Lily is really stepping into the community.
719
00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:41.800
The love, the.
720
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:48.320
Camaraderie of us versus the divide of us and the
721
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:50.920
fear of what else is to come? Why not fix
722
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.719
what is? Why not make what is here better and
723
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.920
enjoy the ride. We got one chance, man, you know, well,
724
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.400
I don't know. We got one. We got one a couple.
725
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:02.400
We'll talk about that later. That's all up.
726
00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:05.119
I feel like we can neither know nor not know
727
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:07.880
how many chances we have, and so we should act
728
00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:08.840
like we have one.
729
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:11.960
We act like we have one. So okay, if I
730
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:18.400
was a peep listening today, what would you say to
731
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:22.320
the peep listening who is inspired, who wants to make
732
00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:31.199
a difference. Maybe they don't have the directional opportunity to
733
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:34.199
make the change with that leadership. Maybe they're mid level
734
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:39.039
in their organization and they they're kind of managing up,
735
00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:43.159
managing down. What would you say to that peep today
736
00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:45.960
to take one action step? Like, what's one thing they
737
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:46.639
can do today?
738
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:53.440
Yeah? Yeah, make real the value of people. So you know,
739
00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:57.239
we all can feel in our heads, in our hearts,
740
00:41:57.760 --> 00:41:59.719
in our souls, whatever you want to think about, you know,
741
00:41:59.800 --> 00:42:03.079
the value of people. We see the folks around us,
742
00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:05.639
you know, we see our colleagues, we see we feel
743
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:08.440
the mission right of our workplace. If our workplace has
744
00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:11.280
a mission that we vibe with, but we can't really
745
00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:14.760
quantify that. Sometimes we can't put that into words. And
746
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.440
some of the hardest part of this work is putting
747
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:21.679
that into words, saying, you know, the value of people
748
00:42:21.800 --> 00:42:24.039
is not a nice to have. In fact, this entire
749
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:29.360
organization runs on people. And so if there's one thing
750
00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:34.639
you can do right is to translate the value of
751
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:39.480
people into a language that your leadership can understand. So
752
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:42.920
if your leaders are I don't know, let's say, dead
753
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:46.119
set on expanding into a new market, make it very
754
00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:49.639
clear the people required to do that, the benefit in
755
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:52.280
terms of people when you do that, the cost in
756
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:55.119
terms of people if you do it wrong. You know, like,
757
00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:58.639
you can translate the value of people into their goals.
758
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:01.880
If their goals are I don't know, what's something asinine,
759
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:06.440
increasing revenue for the next quarter, Sure you can translate
760
00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:08.639
the value of people into that as well. Right, you
761
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:12.039
can be like, look, these are the costs of doing that,
762
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:14.840
of achieving that goal. But if we can do if
763
00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:16.840
we can do right by our people, this is the
764
00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:21.239
possibility of doing this right. You know, we can use
765
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:25.440
hr metrics like turnover or retention or engagement. That's one
766
00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:28.119
way we can translate the value of people. But we
767
00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:30.800
can also talk about things in terms of other Like
768
00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:35.039
I worked with engineers and salespeople before, right, and for
769
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:38.920
them they care about the code that they ship, or
770
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.199
they care about the number of sales they make. You
771
00:43:41.239 --> 00:43:44.039
can translate the value of people into that as well. Right,
772
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:47.039
you can say, look, the institutional knowledge that you lose
773
00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:49.719
when you lose your best sales person because they hate
774
00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:53.280
working in your workplace. That is immeasurable. Think of how
775
00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:57.079
many clients you lose because of that, Right, Like, what
776
00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:01.280
would happen if you're best salesperson who own owns personally,
777
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:04.320
you know, fifteen to twenty percent of your entire clientele
778
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:07.039
decides that they've had enough and they leave, and twenty
779
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:10.199
percent of your clients go with them instead. Right, what's
780
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:13.559
the value of that? So this translation work is one
781
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:15.719
of the single most important things people in the middle
782
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:20.800
layer can do, because the people above you, they're taking
783
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:24.400
the value of people for granted, Right, Like they see
784
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:27.119
all the load bearing work that the people are doing,
785
00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:28.760
and then they handwave it and they're just like, oh,
786
00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:31.119
that's fine. That'll be around forever. We can count on it.
787
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:33.800
And that's not the case, right, One of the most
788
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:35.639
powerful things you can do is to make it clear
789
00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:37.920
that that's not the case, and to say, unless we
790
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:40.760
treat our people better, we'rein for a whole world of
791
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:43.440
hurt when they decide that they're going to leave or
792
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:47.440
they get ill, or they quit or Heaven forbid.
793
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:51.280
Right, so good, so good, so so good. And I
794
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:54.480
think if you're listening today, we're going to put this
795
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:57.280
in the show notes too, as an opportunity for people
796
00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:00.159
to take this one takeaway and keep it put in
797
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:03.599
their back pocket because it will translate. Trust me, it
798
00:45:03.639 --> 00:45:06.880
will translate because because you lead a company. Literally I
799
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.599
lead a company. It translates like if I were to
800
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:13.480
lose my top the person that knows the most about
801
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:15.519
our company. I mean, that's just you can't put a
802
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:16.280
price tag on it.
803
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:17.360
I'm scared thinking about it.
804
00:45:17.559 --> 00:45:19.800
Me doo. I'm like, you literally can't put a price
805
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:24.480
tag on it. So I loved this conversation with you.
806
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:27.000
I know the peeps. First of all, you gotta follow
807
00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:30.360
lily on LinkedIn. Lily on LinkedIn. That's a that's a
808
00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:35.199
that's an actor's warm up literally on LinkedIn, And then, uh,
809
00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:38.599
where can they find out more about you? We did
810
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:43.960
not get into the fair playbook slash framework completely.
811
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:47.039
Oh yeah, I got so wrapped up in all this
812
00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:49.199
conversation that I didn't even dive into the book.
813
00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:52.000
No, but but this is the teaser. They have to
814
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:54.199
get your book. So where can they go? Where can
815
00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:56.599
they get your book and find you and all the things?
816
00:45:56.840 --> 00:45:59.599
Yeah, well, you can currently buy my book anywhere books
817
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:03.239
are sold. It's out now. You can go on Amazon,
818
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:06.599
Barnes and Noble. You can support your local bookstore if
819
00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:10.360
you shop on Bookshop. Let's see, there's so many different
820
00:46:10.360 --> 00:46:14.800
places to buy it, Indie bound, Indigo, basically wherever you
821
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:17.760
like to buy books. Look up Fixing Fairness for Tenants
822
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:21.920
to Transform Diversity, Backlash into Progress for All, or just
823
00:46:21.960 --> 00:46:24.760
Fixing Fairness and you'll find the book. It has a
824
00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:27.760
bright orange cover. It's it's it's so bright.
825
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:33.000
So bright, so like the covert that's a very yes,
826
00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:38.400
it's whatdgets pretty. It's so pretty. You need to get
827
00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:41.800
this book. And also, like I said, follow Lily on LinkedIn.
828
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:45.800
Your your work is transformational, and like I said, we
829
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:47.559
we get pitches on the show to have guests on
830
00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:49.559
the show all the time. And when I saw your name,
831
00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:53.119
I was like LESCo, I was so excited. So this
832
00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:55.719
has been an honor for me. I think we had fun.
833
00:46:56.360 --> 00:46:57.599
I think we had fun time.
834
00:46:57.679 --> 00:46:58.440
Did you have fun?
835
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:00.599
So much fun? In the grass the meadow?
836
00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:02.360
I really have failed it.
837
00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:05.000
So all right, this is my last question, Lily. How
838
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:08.000
are you going to make work more playful today?
839
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:08.400
Today?
840
00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:14.119
Oh gosh, I'm a What am I doing today? Well,
841
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:17.320
just just to behind the scenes of what I'm up
842
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:20.559
to these days. I'm currently trying to catch up with
843
00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:23.320
every client that I've worked with over the last five
844
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:26.519
years and be like, hey, what's new. Also, I have
845
00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:30.159
a book, and I am doing the slightly silly thing
846
00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:33.960
of trying to personalize every single message instead of just
847
00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:37.480
you know, like copy pasting all of them. So yeah,
848
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:40.039
you know, like, I feel like that's fun. I feel
849
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:43.280
like making it so that people feel seen and heard
850
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:46.800
when they get this mass email in they're inbox. I
851
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:48.440
feel like that's fun. I want them to feel like
852
00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:52.039
I'm thinking about them because I am thinking about them. Yeah,
853
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:53.000
and I hope they feel it.
854
00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:57.159
So so we'll send some good energy, good energy to
855
00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:59.760
your your clients, a lot of email writing, I know,
856
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.000
and you don't play like this is what I like
857
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:04.039
to do. Sometimes when I do that kind of like
858
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:08.320
monotonous type stuff, I'll put on a killer playlist. I'll
859
00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:10.920
lay a candle and I'll vibe it out for a
860
00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:13.760
little bit and then it just like sets me in
861
00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:16.199
a mood. And then I'm like, I can get a
862
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:20.320
snack in one hour, and then I go get a snack, okay,
863
00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:24.800
because we like snacks. Oh, Lily, Okay, thank you so
864
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:27.800
much for coming on this show. Everybody go get Lily's
865
00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:30.920
book and follow on LinkedIn. We're gonna put everything in
866
00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.159
the show notes. Thanks for playing Lily, thanks for having me.
867
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.079
All right, my peeps, as we wrap up today's show,
868
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:41.440
here's what I want to leave you with. These one
869
00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:44.559
off DEI trainings do not fail because people don't care.
870
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:50.239
It fails because leadership stops too soon. Fairness is not
871
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:54.920
built in a moment. It is built through consistent leadership choices.
872
00:48:55.519 --> 00:48:58.440
I want to thank my guest Lily for your clarity,
873
00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:01.559
your honesty, and your commit meant to helping leaders do
874
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:04.719
this work better. And now, my peeps, it is time
875
00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:08.400
for the play date practice. Here is your play day
876
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:12.639
practice to put into motion this week. This week, I
877
00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:14.880
want you to look at one system you influence. Maybe
878
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:17.840
it's a meeting, maybe it's a hiring process, maybe it's
879
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:21.880
a performance review, a decision making more. And I want
880
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:25.480
you to ask one simple question, who does this work
881
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:30.079
well for? And who might it intentionally leave out. You
882
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:34.119
don't have to fix everything this week. Just notice, awareness
883
00:49:34.159 --> 00:49:39.280
paired with action is where leadership actually begins. So, my peeps,
884
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:42.760
that is it for today's show. Until next time, keep playing,
885
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:58.599
keep learning, and keep leading with intention. I'll see you then.
886
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:08.920
Pla