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00:00:10.567Welcome to Work in Progress, a podcast series where I pick the brain of thought leaders within the field of people and culture.
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00:00:19.370My name is Pernille Brom and in these talks we explore the latest trends shaping the future of work and the evolving landscape of modern organizations.
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00:00:31.934Today I'm speaking with business psychologist and consultant, Dion Sørensen, who has previously held positions within HR and people and culture in companies such as Danish Commodities, saxo Bank and Maersk.
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00:00:37.631Dion is also the author of several books on talent management and clear leadership.
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00:00:40.622All right, Dion, here we are.
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00:00:42.686It's good to meet you.
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00:00:57.655We are sitting in Copenhagen to do this podcast episode, and the headline was something in the line of how to best bring talent to play, ensure high performance and how HR can help.
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00:01:20.134So the reason why I invited you today as a guest speaker in this podcast episode is because you work with talent, you work with leadership, you work with how to best bring the best out of people in general, and you have a background within HR, but you're also educated within business psychology, right.
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00:01:28.742So I found your profile interesting and then I read your book take the lead you are in charge, which inspired me a lot.
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00:01:46.629So I've been looking very much forward to meeting you and I would love if you would give a few words about who are you yes, well, first of all, thank you for having me I really look forward to this and thank you for reading my book that I wrote together with Henrik Lind, and I'm also, of course, glad that you liked it.
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00:01:55.531Yeah, my background I am a business psychologist and a graduate diploma in finance, and I started my life in consultancy.
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00:02:02.048My very first job was in a large consultancy firm and then I sort of moved into corporate HR.
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00:02:09.945For quite some years I was in Maersk, I was also in Danske Bank and I was also hitting up the HR function in Saxo Bank.
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00:02:46.192And then I had a period again in my life where I was an independent consultant and one of the big clients I had was Danske Commodities, and that relationship evolved quite quickly, especially my relationship with Henrik Lind, who founded the company, and I started becoming part of the board of directors, and later I was sort of hitting the HR function, which I did for six years, and then, in 2020, I went back out into the consultancy world and I've been doing that for the last five years.
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00:02:50.250So, summing up, I have been obviously working in HR.
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00:03:00.993I've been a leader myself and I'm also a consultant where I try to help others to not make the same mistakes that I have made, which, of course, is quite an effort, but that's my ambition.
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00:03:02.475Awesome.
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00:03:19.090So what a journey so in and out of different roles and traditions, and what has this given you in terms of experience, of being able to actually advise HR professionals or PNC, and culture and managers in general?
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00:03:24.468I like to believe that it gives me an advantage that I have been sitting on their side of the table.
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00:03:28.211I know the challenges from within that they gives me an advantage that I have been sitting on their side of the table.
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00:03:29.997I know the challenges from from within that that they face in an organization.
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00:03:37.121I was also, very early in my career, one of those top 100 talents by back balance due to some of the stuff I did in in sexual bank.
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00:03:44.568So I also know what it does to a person to be labeled a talent and what that, what challenges that can actually give also to an organization.
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00:04:04.911And I try to merge my own experience being a leader, being an HR professional and also a young, passionate, professional, whatever we call it, and I try to sort of bring that together in the work I do today where I try to just help other companies leaders do the best they can.
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00:04:11.550So that's at least my ambition with the stuff that I do, to connect the dots and help others succeed.
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00:04:24.543So maybe I'm quick jumping into it, but you mentioned that it can give companies some trouble that some of their people are named or labeled biggest talent, blah, blah blah, and others are not.
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00:04:39.543is is that where the problem lies, or I think part of some some challenges with with that whole concept of being a talent, because, um, the worst thing you can do to a person is to to remove the burning platform to do your best to grow, to be vulnerable and humble, and sort of.
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00:04:58.225Getting that stamp in your forehead that you are a talent at a very young age can sometimes derail your focus a little bit, and sort of getting that stamp in your forehead that you are a talent at a very young age can sometimes derail your focus a little bit and sort of think that now I, I got it and now I need to tell other people what to do in order to, to make, to keep making me happy and and make me succeed with my ambition.
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00:05:27.622So, um, and I think, as a consequence of all this, I also think that these sort of traditional talent programs are sort of moving a bit away in favor of a more inclusive approach where you try to acknowledge that everyone has potential to become better and we should do whatever we can to make that happen, rather than having that selected few 2% that are sort of the super role models and everyone else should really watch and learn, else should really watch and learn.
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00:05:37.862Um, I I have tried these programs many times myself and and often they give a lot of challenges actually to companies, because the ones that are in the program think too high of themselves and the ones that are not get super jealous and they think, why the hell am I not part of this?
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00:05:49.266And then they, for that reason alone, could, could decide to resign or at least become very disengaged or dissatisfied that's an interesting approach to to and and based on your own experience, of course.
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00:05:51.069So did it?
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00:05:52.632Did it kill your curiosity?
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00:05:57.730Or did you, for a period of your life, become a little bit more like you knew it all?
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00:06:00.482or I, I think I had a period in my life.
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00:06:12.730I was, uh, I was 31 when I got this label and I was heading up the the hr team in saxo bank at that time and um, and I think it, it, it, it got me to reflect a lot.
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00:06:21.283Uh, you know how I made it there and what I could still do, and I and I like to believe that I tried to to keep my feet on the ground and focus on the job.
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00:06:22.846But, uh, but there's no.
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00:06:40.591When I first got it, I was super proud and happy and I think like many others, of course, to some extent, maybe also in times, coming to the conclusion that I knew better than others which I shouldn't that we're clearly more experienced, more advanced than me in some aspects.
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00:06:43.285So I think whenever you do this, you need to do it with.
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00:06:48.612You need to make sure that these young individuals know that you know this is first step on your journey.
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00:06:49.601There's a lot of steps.
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00:06:50.845You still have a lot to learn.
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00:06:56.045Congratulations, you got a good start, but don't give up and don't give in, because then it will all end.
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00:06:59.471Yes, yes, does that make sense?
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00:07:00.853it totally does.
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00:07:05.451Yeah, and it gave you a stepping stone to actually build better talent programs.
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00:07:16.076It sounds like internally in the organizations you were part of so you said, it has transitioned lately into something more inclusive or where you think differently about it.
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00:07:17.963Can you explain to us a little bit better what?
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00:07:19.610What do you mean by that and what?
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00:07:19.992What has?
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00:07:21.278What is the transition?
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00:07:32.192I think the the trend today is to to open up a bit more and also to say well, basically, we believe everyone has potential to grow and to learn.
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00:07:34.134Maybe some faster and more than others.
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00:07:34.795That's fine.
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00:07:37.745Of course, there are differences, but let's try to explore.
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00:07:41.644How can we make everyone better, how can we give everyone an opportunity to grow?
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00:07:50.016So, rather than sending 10 people on a talent program, let's roll an individual development plan out in the organization.
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00:08:01.468Let's empower managers to have that conversation, to find out what is your aspiration, how can I nurture it, and then find some ways to grow and learn on the job, and then you may add a few programs.
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00:08:03.406It's not to kill programs at all.
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00:08:06.583Add a few programs along.
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00:08:07.365It's not to kill programs at all.
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00:08:08.750I really think they can do a big difference.
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00:08:14.432But it needs to be targeted to the individual in terms of what is his or her career, aspirations and potential, rather than sort of like you are fantastic.
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00:08:23.824Let's just meet and tell each other that, and that's basically the main purpose, because I think that that's probably a little bit going away, which I think is for the better it's for the better.
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00:08:37.626And then it also sounds like it's about enabling managers or leaders to take those conversations with the individuals at every level and at every potential.
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00:08:39.171I agree.
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00:08:39.692Very much.
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00:08:49.899I think also, another challenge with some of these programs is that you send people out without the organization fully being prepared to get them back in and they don't really know what they learn.
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00:08:54.479They come back filled with energy but but they can be a little bit derailed in their focus.
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00:09:00.869Maybe they learned some tools, some hacks by some great consultants and now they need to come back in and sort of apply it in everyday work.
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00:09:07.086And if their own manager, their own team, doesn't know about it, doesn't embrace it, then sometimes it can be a little bit detached, right.
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00:09:34.721So rather than doing that, try to integrate it into the way the managers work and basically empower them and make sure that they are the ones in charge, together with the individual, to drive that development, because that way you can get work done while developing and employing through some challenging tasks and interesting projects, rather than sending them off to to very expensive courses with some great consultants who learn them tips and tricks which may be relevant but sometimes can be a little bit generic.
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00:09:45.179A little bit theoretical if you don't manage to at least embed it, I think that that piece needs to be be there, and and that is not always the case, that's at least my, my experience- your experience?
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00:09:55.047yeah, so what happened to you after you were named the talent and you came back and and were you part of like a program, or did you yourself or did you I?
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00:09:55.828was.
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00:09:58.113I was actually at the time I was heading the.
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00:09:59.923I was very early.
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00:10:07.654I sort of managed to to get in in the position of heading the HR team in Saxo so I was really stretched in that role.
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00:10:13.292So there was a lot on my plate so I didn't really have time or prioritize any kind of programs.
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00:10:22.552I was included in an alumni program with Berlingske, which they did, but other than that I was running most of the talent programs we did in the bank at the time.
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00:10:28.044So I think I didn't have the chance to get sort of derailed in any way.
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00:10:55.173But but I I was reflecting on some of the alumni programs that we did with with balance get that I would would like to avoid that happening in in the there was also a lot of great stuff, but there was some of the things where I felt it was a little bit it was detached yeah, detached a little bit which I think, at the end of the day, is very important to ensure that you you get something out of it that you embedded in the everyday work right yes, so after saxo bank, was that when you joined danish commodities or after?
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00:10:59.082saxo bank I, um, I I wrote my first two books in saxo.
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00:11:06.214The first one called um the talent factory, which was based on actually why I got into that talent hundred thing.
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00:11:25.249Because we, we, we were growing so fast we could not find the, the leaders we needed externally, so we needed to grow them internally and we sort of developed a concept of of sort of growing systematically our top talent into leaders from within and um.
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00:11:47.695Following that high growth period, we sort of hit a bit of a wall at a time where we needed to consolidate and cut costs and I was part of driving a significant round of layoffs, basically and restructuring, which inspired me to write my second book, which was called Crisis Management or sort of how to adjust your workforce.
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00:11:56.692So those were two very different books about sort of growing talent, growing organizations and how to then clean up when you sort of went too fast in one direction.
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00:12:15.291And at the time, to be completely honest, the HR function after that process that I was running myself was very, very lean and very much focused on the operational administrative piece and I sort of felt it was time for me to do something else.
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00:12:26.405So I actually went back out into being a consultant and I got a few people that contacted me on sort of can you come do some pitches around the books, and also some of my old clients.
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00:12:28.046I felt, hell, I'll do it.
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00:12:28.408Yes.
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00:12:29.683And so I went out.
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00:12:38.107I went back out and after a very short period of time I was contacted by Henrik Lind, who knew both Kiem and Lars from Saxofang and he read this book, talent Factory.
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00:12:40.201And that was sort of the phase that Danske Commodity was in.
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00:12:44.929Danske Commodity was in and he was like, could you come in and help us facilitate this process?
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00:12:47.734So that was how it all sort of happened at the time.
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00:12:58.533So it was high growth leading to the Talent Factory book, and then it was kind of a consolidation and stuff that led to the second book.
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00:13:07.019So in Danish Commodities could you then and I guess you could but take the learnings from there and then combine them, or is that even possible?
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00:13:10.019Or is this just something that all companies face?
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00:13:11.807I wish I could say I learned from it.
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00:13:14.668Right, but actually the exact same thing happened.
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00:13:29.950Right, we really utilized the talent management piece and the growth piece, but we also ended up in a situation where we were basically following each chapter in the crisis management book where we also had to clean up, and that actually happened just about half a year after I joined.
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00:13:36.168I needed to go into that process and sort of cleaning up the thing before we could go back into a growth phase.
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00:13:37.426And what were the signs?
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00:13:42.231What made you look at it from that perspective, rather than just growth, growth?
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00:13:48.163Yeah, I think, also also have a graduate diploma in finance.
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00:14:01.456So and you know when, when the cost starts growing more than the revenue, you know that's a bit of a red flag you need to to be mindful of and if and sometimes you sometimes there's good reasons to really grow and ramp up with resources at a certain point.
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00:14:14.249But but many things can happen that can change your, the market conditions or the the demand for your services and and for that reason, every once in a while you need to sort of loosen up on the speeder and maybe put a little bit on on the brake.
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00:14:19.998And for many companies at least I've been part of when you're so enthusiastic and nothing could go wrong.
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00:14:22.825Sometimes it can take a little long to come to the conclusion.
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00:14:56.482Well, we actually need to go into another direction or slow down a little bit, and for that reason sometimes it comes too late and then it becomes a bit of a tough break or tough stop, which happened both at Saxo and Danske Commodities, actually, but in both cases it led to a very good basis to continue the growth following that cleanup and I think, having thought about it of course I wish I saw the signs on the wall early on, to be honest, but I also think sometimes it needs to happen.
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00:15:01.650You need to go through these organizational phases and you need to do what's needed and the best.
00:15:02.436 -->
00:15:05.465Like Jack Wells says, change before you have to.
00:15:05.465 -->
00:15:06.678I don't know if you ever saw that quote.
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00:15:07.403I love it right.
00:15:07.403 -->
00:15:10.485So ideally you need to do something before it's really critical.
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00:15:11.860I think in both cases we did.
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00:15:13.980Should we have done a little earlier?
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00:15:22.407So when you were discovering that, and coming back to Henrik and the rest of the C-suite there and advising on.
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00:15:28.003You know, let's slow down a little bit, and they probably saw it too, but what was it you want?
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00:15:32.066What's in that chapter of the crisis management book that you advise on, then?
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00:15:36.346Is that in terms of what HR does in that phase?
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00:15:50.643Yeah, I think in that phase of sort of doing the change or sort of conducting the layoffs and so forth, it's a very straightforward process really, it's not difficult to do that.
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00:16:05.447I did write the book about it because I think there are some things you need to be mindful of so that you take good care of the people, because an organization and a leader should be judged by how do you treat people in times of difficulty, right.
00:16:05.447 -->
00:16:36.054So you want to make sure you handle it in a good way and I think some of the things I've been part of I was not super proud of I would like to do differently and that's why I sat down and and wrote that book about how do you make sure to have that, to have that, that sort of human touch in the way when you let people go do it, do it in a good way, um, but I think and what is a good way a good way is to to make sure that you you face people you know in person, you explain them why are you doing this, so they understand.
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00:16:47.886You don't give them some crappy generic uh, chat gbt generated uh, that was not chat gbt at the time, but it has to be something that people can buy into so they can relate to, they understand it.
00:16:47.886 -->
00:16:52.008And then you need to take care of them afterwards so they can get on with their lives.
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00:17:06.401You need to pay them so they can go out and get the necessary outplacement services and support and you need to make sure that there's a good, proper off-boarding where they can, you know, get off, say goodbye to their team, you know, make sure that there's time to leave and so forth.
00:17:06.401 -->
00:17:15.928All that kind of things where sometimes it's too sterile the way it's being done, you know you sort of treat people a little bit like a number in an Excel sheet, right.
00:17:16.368 -->
00:17:21.291So there are things there that I at least would that I have been reflecting on in the way we have done it.
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00:17:50.188But what I wanted to say is I think the most challenging piece is actually what comes after, and I think sometimes you forget the people that are left because you're so focused on you sort of taking care of the people who is getting out and you neglect the people who have actually lost a great colleague and who was a little bit going back to the drawing board in terms of what should we really be doing now and maybe a little bit confused or frustrated about what's going on.
00:17:50.268 -->
00:17:54.518So or afraid of their own position afraid of their own position for sure, right.
00:17:54.538 -->
00:18:00.503so reinstalling that comfort, that faith, seeing the strategy and understanding this is going to be fantastic.
00:18:00.503 -->
00:18:04.317Even though some of my great colleagues are not around anymore, I think that's really important.
00:18:04.317 -->
00:18:19.325So so to rebuild the structure or the culture, so that people really buy into it and feel that this is still a great organization and I have yet to see any leaders who have regretted actually going through some of these changes.
00:18:19.325 -->
00:18:24.040Typically, it's a relief if you manage to cure people in a proper way.
00:18:24.040 -->
00:18:32.423I've more often come across people or leaders who wait too long and then it's sort of getting back to the change before you have to.
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00:18:40.384Sometimes we drag it out and we really need to be 100% sure to do it, but very often we are quite sure that this is the end of the road.
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00:18:41.326We need to part ways.
00:18:41.326 -->
00:18:51.525We need to do something now, but for various reasons being a little bit conflict, diverse or afraid to to hurt people's maybe we, maybe we drag it out too far, right.
00:18:51.605 -->
00:19:06.182but and it's a very interesting link between you know talent management and how you bring talent to play in an organization, and then having those hard conversations or being able to let people go in a good way and do crisis management well.
00:19:06.182 -->
00:19:08.164What is the link?
00:19:08.164 -->
00:19:13.010To those of us who might have trouble seeing the link there.
00:19:14.657 -->
00:19:20.109Yes, I think what is important and that's also the reason we called the book Take the Lead.
00:19:20.109 -->
00:19:20.734You're in Charge.
00:19:20.734 -->
00:19:25.807I think it's important that people make up their mind when they go into this.
00:19:25.807 -->
00:19:27.761Is this something I want to do?
00:19:27.761 -->
00:19:39.167Because being a leader that may look good in terms of title, status, power and all that, but there's so much associated with being a leader that is also uncomfortable at times.
00:19:39.167 -->
00:19:45.184You need to step in, make tough decisions, you need sometimes to give people a hard feedback.
00:19:45.184 -->
00:19:51.582You need to go in and resolve a conflict, make unpopular decisions, maybe even decisions you don't completely agree with yourself.
00:19:51.582 -->
00:19:53.126You need to stand by it.
00:19:53.126 -->
00:19:59.626You need to front your people and all that I think many people forget or they don't think about when they step into it.
00:19:59.626 -->
00:20:04.711They just think it's great with a small race and a great title, and now we all together are going to have a fantastic time together.
00:20:05.434 -->
00:20:06.599It looks great on my CV.
00:20:09.174 -->
00:20:09.335Exactly.
00:20:09.335 -->
00:20:10.718And now we all together we're gonna gonna do have a fantastic.
00:20:10.718 -->
00:20:11.220It looks exactly right.
00:20:11.220 -->
00:20:15.028And and then they, they go into this with a bit of a naive attitude about what does this really mean?
00:20:15.028 -->
00:20:30.297And uh, and the reason we called the book take the leader in charge, because if we really cut into the sort of the essence of the people who were really standing out on the good side, but also the people who fell short, it was really about that taking that responsibility.
00:20:30.297 -->
00:20:34.058You know, sit yourself at the end of the table and be a leader.
00:20:34.058 -->
00:20:37.840If you cannot do that, if you're not comfortable doing that, it will be difficult.
00:20:37.881 -->
00:20:40.323For you and it will be super difficult for your employees.
00:20:40.702 -->
00:20:40.883Yes.
00:20:41.163 -->
00:20:57.051And I think that's don't fall into the trap of being sort of a oneick pony who can only praise or can only ask questions, or who can only yeah, whatever thing you can do, you really need to be able to play the full all the piano strings right in order to fulfill the role.
00:20:57.051 -->
00:21:07.454So I think you should be able to handle a change, you should be able to handle a crisis, you should be able to, of course, engage and encourage and empower people so they feel this is a fantastic place to be.
00:21:07.454 -->
00:21:10.862Um, you should be able to to do all of this.
00:21:10.862 -->
00:21:12.705So it's a very um.
00:21:12.705 -->
00:21:18.390I think one point of the book is that it's not complicated, but it's very demanding to be a leader yes it does.
00:21:18.651 -->
00:21:25.076It's a big responsibility and you have to carry it right, otherwise you should not be a leader, and I don't think leadership is for everyone.
00:21:25.417 -->
00:21:27.695No, it's um, that's no, it sounds like you have.
00:21:27.695 -->
00:21:32.738You have a good recipe for what it takes to actually succeed in that role, and that's what you're talking about.
00:21:32.738 -->
00:21:34.182So so do you have a?
00:21:34.182 -->
00:21:41.984Do you have an example of a manager or an organization that actually did apply some of these advice that you give to organizations?
00:21:42.645 -->
00:21:48.459one of the one of the quotes, the sort of the bold quotes we have in the book is you probably know Drucker.
00:21:48.459 -->
00:21:51.674He has this culture each strategy for breakfast.
00:21:51.674 -->
00:22:06.945And the quote that we use for the last chapter in the book, which is the shortest, by the way, is that leadership cooks culture for dinner, which is a little bit taggy, I know right, but anyway, the point is that if you have great leadership, you can shape the culture accordingly.
00:22:06.945 -->
00:22:10.714But anyway, the point is that if you have great leadership, you can shape the culture accordingly.
00:22:10.714 -->
00:22:15.798And a good example of that, I think, was last year.
00:22:15.817 -->
00:22:32.452I was contacted by a close client of mine who was really frustrated about the meeting culture being so terrible in his leadership team and actually throughout the organization it was like a mid-sized organization and he wanted my help to to make some guidelines for good meetings and I was, uh, I was a little bit skeptic, I was very skeptic.
00:22:32.452 -->
00:22:36.201I I never think you can drive any kind of change by writing anything down.
00:22:36.201 -->
00:22:43.287So I actually told him that I thought, um, we could do the, we could do the guidelines, but that should be more for be for his reference.
00:22:43.287 -->
00:22:53.751Then what I would suggest him to do is to um to do three things, and then I would almost promise him that he could skip the the rules on the on the on the walls.
00:22:54.413 -->
00:23:01.178The one thing would be to to be very clear to the, to the team, that he was not happy with the meeting culture right now and what he wanted.
00:23:01.178 -->
00:23:09.641So show up on time, leave your, your phone closed, be present, don't run in and out when we have our meetings.
00:23:09.641 -->
00:23:11.125That's number one.
00:23:11.125 -->
00:23:12.106Set clear expectations.
00:23:12.106 -->
00:23:15.544Number two be a role model yourself.
00:23:15.544 -->
00:23:18.820You have to do it yourself Because, when I asked him, are you always on time?
00:23:18.820 -->
00:23:19.765Not always.
00:23:19.765 -->
00:23:24.105It's always the fish from the top right or from the head.
00:23:24.105 -->
00:23:26.321And so be a role model yourself.
00:23:26.321 -->
00:23:32.857Really step up and be there on time and follow these rules yourself, and then make sure to give the feedback when people show up late.
00:23:32.857 -->
00:23:40.584Also, when they show up on time, make sure that it matters, that it counts, that you tell them that, that this is fantastic and if it isn't, let them know.
00:23:40.584 -->
00:23:49.395If you do that, if you just follow these three, three rules, I'm pretty comfortable that you don't need your 10 points on the wall.
00:23:50.057 -->
00:23:57.578And then, actually three months later, he called me and he said thank you, thank you for these three easy hacks.
00:23:57.578 -->
00:24:00.506And he also told me we actually reduced the meetings.
00:24:00.506 -->
00:24:10.371We don't have as many meetings, we don't have them as long anymore, because now, all of a sudden, we can start on time, we can be super efficient and we managed to get much more done in our meetings than we did before.
00:24:10.371 -->
00:24:13.759And I'm not sharing this example to tell you see how great I am.
00:24:13.839 -->
00:24:31.589I'm just, I'm really sharing it to, to, to, to share how, how efficient or efficient it is, if you just set clear expectations if you're wrong, if you give that feedback, if you do that consistently, and if you do that consistently and if everyone does that, you can really drive cultural change and you can make a lot of things happen.
00:24:31.694 -->
00:24:41.307So I think that that's the nutshell of people management if you ask me, and then if we ask ourselves why do not more managers just apply those hacks?
00:24:41.414 -->
00:24:55.960It might come down to conflict avoidance or being a little bit, you know, conflict avoidance and the role model piece, and because I also sometimes meet leaders who want to embed a big change and then I typically ask them are you willing to front this?
00:24:55.960 -->
00:24:57.623Are you willing to do it?
00:24:57.623 -->
00:24:58.625Because it's it's.
00:24:58.625 -->
00:25:03.484It's great you want everyone to be in the office every day, but are you in the office every day?
00:25:03.484 -->
00:25:04.976Are you setting that example?
00:25:04.976 -->
00:25:10.989And uh, and, in terms of feedback, it's great that you want feedback and you want people to give each other feedback, but do you do it?
00:25:10.989 -->
00:25:12.180Do you role model that?
00:25:12.180 -->
00:25:17.768So don't set higher expectations than what you can do yourself, because then it will fail.
00:25:18.455 -->
00:25:31.021So the link to talent management is also that its managers are leading that talent and also assembling the force for good for the business in a way where it plays out well.
00:25:31.021 -->
00:25:50.705So your connection, or the connection I make from what you're saying here, is that talent can do something, or having that label can do something to people that can be beneficial or not, and it's the manager's responsibility to make sure that everyone seen as a talent or see themselves as a talent.
00:25:50.705 -->
00:25:51.487Is that correct?
00:25:51.567 -->
00:26:01.722and and then how you then put it to play 100, sure, and and so I think it's important that that that's another thing with the hr team is that they empower the managers actually to be managers.
00:26:01.742 -->
00:26:03.588They don't go in and take over there.
00:26:03.588 -->
00:26:15.496The managers need to, to, to fulfill these requirements and and um, and the way you do it really is to hire people with the right attitude, right people who want to go in and make a difference.
00:26:15.496 -->
00:26:21.397And there is this, another quote you know hire for hire for attitude and train for skills, which I know it's.
00:26:21.397 -->
00:26:34.508You've heard it many times before, but I kind of like it because it it emphasizes the fact that if you have people with the right attitude, the right spirit, you can train, you can qualify, you can get those bits and pieces that they need to do on a professional side.
00:26:34.508 -->
00:26:57.003And if you get those people on board, you treat them well, you set a clear direction, give them the praise, the comfort, the empowerment that they need, you support them in their both professional and personal development, then you will not only have great results in your team, you'll also contribute to a great culture because, at the end of the day, in my mind, the culture is the consequence of what people do, especially the leaders.
00:26:57.234 -->
00:27:13.048So if all leaders are able to do this and be role models of that way of leading and ensuring that people think this is a fantastic place to be and I can really make the most out of myself and what I do, that's basically the uh that's a good recipe for success.
00:27:13.068 -->
00:27:14.478That's the recipe for success right.
00:27:14.919 -->
00:27:38.861but if you have people who don't have that attitude and you have managers who are afraid to to set that direction, to step in and deal with those challenging situation, having those tough conversations, then you will have conflicts that will just sort of become bigger and bigger and there will be lots of difficult situations that are not dealt with and that will hold you back from really being excellent and that's just a pity.
00:27:39.775 -->
00:27:52.106So I hear that it's a lot about the right mindset, but then once you have those top-notch people that you've been looking for and you hire them, how do you then ensure that they actually become successful in their roles?
00:27:52.536 -->
00:28:10.229yes, it's a good question because you can actually have people who are very successful in one context and then when they go to another, it something happens right, which is also why it often it's good to to develop talent from within, because that way you know the mindset, the cultural fit is there.
00:28:10.229 -->
00:28:13.665It's always a bit of a chance when you hire people externally.
00:28:13.665 -->
00:28:21.066So unless you want to have a huge change or you don't have the talent in-house, of course you should look externally.
00:28:21.066 -->
00:28:35.390I do have experience with a few of the clients I work with where they really go for the very best people in the market and they pay a big amount to really get some hot shots in.
00:28:35.390 -->
00:28:48.438But sometimes there's also a bit of a pattern of that not really working out as great when they then come into their organizations as these individuals were doing in the past.
00:28:48.438 -->
00:28:52.490And I, I, um, I think it's, it's, uh, it's.
00:28:52.590 -->
00:28:57.566This is really an opportunity for a company to look yourself in the mirror.
00:28:57.566 -->
00:29:02.857If you have a pattern of bringing in great people on paper, you do the reference checks.
00:29:02.857 -->
00:29:10.230They have been doing good in their previous companies, you pay them a lot, you do all the good things or the right things.
00:29:10.230 -->
00:29:13.298You bring them in and for some reason, they don't make it.
00:29:13.298 -->
00:29:17.643If that's a pattern, it's, it's, it's very.
00:29:18.483 -->
00:29:42.230The only reason I can think of is that there's something about your way of doing things to something about your structure, your, your culture, your leadership philosophy that does not really work, being great anymore, or sort of they clearly topped five years ago or they're not as good as they looked.
00:29:42.230 -->
00:29:44.739Whatever, you should take it as an opportunity to reassess yourself, to think about.
00:29:44.739 -->
00:29:49.375Is there something in the way we are setting expectations that are not super clear?
00:29:49.375 -->
00:29:53.107Or did we not do the proper work when we onboarded the individual?
00:29:53.107 -->
00:29:59.346Or are we not creating a context of clarity and you know possibilities to to deliver?
00:29:59.346 -->
00:30:18.925And then you should change it accordingly, because if you hire hotshots, as you say, and you don't give them a mandate, if you don't give them the possibility to perform, to use all their talents, even the greatest individual can turn into a major failure, and that's unfortunately what happens sometimes.
00:30:18.925 -->
00:30:25.237If that's not, uh, if that proper um preparation is not being done, and, and what you're saying is actually so.
00:30:25.257 -->
00:30:29.534Talent management starts with management, and and with leaders 100.
00:30:29.554 -->
00:30:39.464It starts and stops with leaders right, because the leaders need to need to empower and embrace, and then it sounds like they need to do the job, because it's and and that's not really the case.
00:30:39.464 -->
00:30:42.009You need to get people who also want to run you, of course.
00:30:42.009 -->
00:30:43.833You need to give them direction.
00:30:43.833 -->
00:30:53.210You need to adjust a little bit, like I think the example in the book is like a gps or navigation system in the book you need to nudge people a little bit to make sure that they they go on with their stuff, but.
00:30:53.830 -->
00:31:10.118But really you need to get out of their way right to make sure that they can strive, they can learn, they can grow and then help them as much as you can, but, but, um, without becoming a micromanager right because you don't want to, you don't want to go in and and avoid or limit people in sort of realizing their their full potential.
00:31:10.159 -->
00:31:24.214but but the worst kind of management need less affair management or managers who are not around, who don't prioritize their people, who don't set expectations, who don't follow up because they're so busy with meetings, running from one meeting to another flying around the world.
00:31:24.214 -->
00:31:26.665That's the worst managers ever, right?
00:31:26.665 -->
00:31:34.559They should not be managers, they should just be sort of executive advisors or whatever, meeting participants or whatever, because that has nothing to do with leadership.
00:31:34.861 -->
00:31:47.069No, and it also sounds like not only not having the time, but also not taking the time to dare to sit there when you are needed and tell us your story about Danish Commodities.
00:31:47.069 -->
00:31:54.874So you said it was 10 years journey and it was a successful transition and something great came out of it.
00:31:54.874 -->
00:31:57.443Can you tell us what happened and what led you to write the book?
00:31:58.164 -->
00:32:18.884I think I think one of the main reasons that it it has been such a successful case and it also continued to be successful after both henrik and I left is really due to henrik's mindset around sort of what is also captured in the book you know, you need to, you need to, you need to want to do something, you need to be ambitious as a leader and you need to communicate that.
00:32:18.884 -->
00:32:21.529You need to enforce that and empower people to deliver.
00:32:21.529 -->
00:32:21.930And he was.
00:32:21.930 -->
00:32:24.114He was a perfect role model himself.
00:32:24.114 -->
00:32:45.311He sort of did this and he demanded also that the leaders should do it, and he he was not afraid to invest in qualifying the leaders to to actually live up to these sort of expectations, help them, support them, because the the main philosophy was that if we have strong leaders who do this consistently, then we will be able to build a strong culture.
00:32:46.642 -->
00:32:56.430We were also located very close to one of the best universities of finance students in Denmark, which is Aarhus University, so we also were based on talent factory.
00:32:56.430 -->
00:33:07.828We were very keen on bringing bringing in the the sharpest minds from the university while they were still studying and then incorporating them or integrating them into the business as they, as they graduated.
00:33:07.828 -->
00:33:21.861So having those young people and sort of grooming them, developing them into the and being able to to foster that mindset that we wanted, I think that was a big part of the of the success and it sounds like it was very deliberate.
00:33:21.942 -->
00:33:29.704You, you had almost an image or a vivid picture in your minds about what does great look like in terms of management and leadership.
00:33:29.724 -->
00:33:30.907Yeah, yeah, it did.
00:33:30.907 -->
00:33:33.102It was very much what you can read in the book.
00:33:33.102 -->
00:33:40.729That's really because we wrote it right after we left in in 2020 and then we sort of let's put it together what we really did.
00:33:41.060 -->
00:33:41.141And.
00:33:41.201 -->
00:33:48.685I think it was not so clearly articulated before, but it was very clear in the way we work that this is what we want and this is what we are looking for.
00:33:48.685 -->
00:33:54.890So when we were hiring managers, when we were onboarding them, when we were training them, it was very much around these principles.
00:33:54.890 -->
00:33:59.509And the same when we were hired, when we hired young professionals and employees.
00:33:59.509 -->
00:34:27.106And the same when we hired young professionals and employees.
00:34:27.126 -->
00:34:29.672You can you put a few words on on why.
00:34:29.672 -->
00:34:33.690Because some people might know, but others might still be.
00:34:33.690 -->
00:34:36.239Yeah, but still they add value and you know.
00:34:36.239 -->
00:34:38.503So why is it you say it so clearly?
00:34:38.623 -->
00:34:44.954I think it's so important because it's really the signal you send as a leadership team.
00:34:44.954 -->
00:34:51.487If you accept that, if you say, okay, he makes money, but he's an asshole, the rest will not be happy working with him.
00:34:51.487 -->
00:35:11.923He does not create a great work spirit or working culture, then you also say money is more important than the culture of the people that we have and at the end of the day, that will cost you much more than taking that individual out and saying he was really good financially but, he did not live up to our value, so we need to, we need to deal with it right.
00:35:12.487 -->
00:35:22.885Of course you should give people a chance and most people can be corrected, but but this is really something and I am a psychologist and I really look careful for this psychopath element when I hire people.
00:35:22.885 -->
00:35:31.092Because you can see it, if you test properly, you can sort of sense and if you do the references, uh, properly, you can find out is there a, is there a bit of a?
00:35:31.621 -->
00:35:38.907history, history here is there a dark side or a sort of some blind spots that the person is not mindful of and that is just toxic for?
00:35:38.927 -->
00:35:40.070a culture, right?
00:35:40.070 -->
00:35:43.306What kind of questions do you ask that might give you a hint?
00:35:43.306 -->
00:35:45.813Yeah, when was the?
00:35:45.813 -->
00:35:46.315When was the?
00:35:46.335 -->
00:35:57.132last time when you were really under pressure, when you really faced a challenge that you, you had to cope with, and the first thing I don't want to hear is that never happened to me.
00:35:57.132 -->
00:36:03.389I've been fortunate enough to never be in a conflict or in a crisis or in a challenge, right that's a red flag exactly.
00:36:03.471 -->
00:36:05.161And then afterwards, how did you deal with it?
00:36:05.161 -->
00:36:12.266Was it like all the other people, that were just idiots and I sort of you want to come out as sort of the number one, or you were doing great or whatever?
00:36:12.266 -->
00:36:14.512That's another, uh, red flag.
00:36:14.512 -->
00:36:16.182So there are a little, there are a few red flags.
00:36:16.182 -->
00:36:18.487Can you, can you reflect on yourself?
00:36:18.487 -->
00:36:30.452Do you have a bit of a humbleness, humility, you know, in the way you see yourself, or do you just feel that you're sort of the you're the, you're the, you're the shit right yes and everyone else is just a little bit off.
00:36:30.532 -->
00:36:34.679So so there's a few things that you can do, and then of course you can you are psychologists as well.
00:36:34.699 -->
00:36:37.804You can also test for different traits in your personality, right.
00:36:37.824 -->
00:36:54.065But and that's also why I think we were so focused and we also did that in saxophone, by the way including people very young, where you can still mold them, you can still structure them and then get those very, very strong, senior, experienced people in who can sort of lead and guide and direct.
00:36:54.949 -->
00:37:16.860But when we hired those individuals, the leaders, it was also a very clear requirement that it's great that you want to lead, it's great that you are so experienced and qualified in your field, but please acknowledge that about 25% of your time you need to help others, you need to teach others, you need to be a mentor, you need to empower, you need to onboard and so forth.
00:37:16.860 -->
00:37:24.253That's part of being a senior person in this company, and if they don't want to do that, then you cannot be a leader, because that's really part of it.
00:37:24.253 -->
00:37:33.543Then you can end up in a situation where they're sort of working a bit on their own or they're running from meeting to meeting.
00:37:33.543 -->
00:37:38.105They don't embrace, they don't empower the part of the role being an educator, an aspiration for others, learning, teaching.
00:37:38.405 -->
00:37:40.065Yes, you know, an aspiration for others learning, teaching.
00:37:40.065 -->
00:37:47.289Yes, because when you have a lot of young people which we did in Danske Commodities with lots of energy, lots of spirit, they just want to go out there and do something.
00:37:47.289 -->
00:37:53.253If you don't have someone who can set that direction, who can help them run in the right direction, it will just be a car crash.
00:37:53.253 -->
00:38:01.038So you need those people and they need to prioritize that task as sort of probably the most important thing in their leadership role.
00:38:08.320 -->
00:38:16.315And what if you, in your HR function, discover that you don't have that kind of leadership or management around you, but you have a willingness from the CEO or from, maybe, the C-suite, that they want to grow this kind of nurture, this kind of culture?
00:38:16.315 -->
00:38:17.342Where do you start?
00:38:17.342 -->
00:38:18.045What do you do?
00:38:20.300 -->
00:38:21.063nurture this kind of culture.
00:38:21.063 -->
00:38:21.445Where do you start?
00:38:21.445 -->
00:38:21.867What do you do?
00:38:21.867 -->
00:38:25.121I think you start by articulating that this is important and then also making sort of a target profile, for this is what good looks like.
00:38:25.121 -->
00:38:30.500And then you need to find out, of course, are people willing, open to to go down that route?
00:38:30.500 -->
00:38:33.807Because if they are perfect, we can make it happen, we will support you.
00:38:33.807 -->
00:38:38.126If they are not, we need to think about is this the right role or should we do something else?
00:38:38.126 -->
00:39:02.090Um, and then you can do a lot with training, with, uh, with teaching, with coaching, sort of going through the different tools, the different hacks, how to to sort of build this, this mindset, this way of working, and then make sure that, yeah, in the recruitment strategy that you build, you bring on board someone who has who's representing that the same kind of mindset because that that way makes it easier to integrate them into the culture.
00:39:02.289 -->
00:39:10.826Yeah, so articulating it, being very vocal about this, is what great looks like and where we should be, but this is the current state, which looks very different.
00:39:10.826 -->
00:39:11.969This is the gap.
00:39:12.028 -->
00:39:12.791We need to close it.
00:39:12.791 -->
00:39:32.407This is what we will do, and also helping people close that gap, because if they are really open to it and they want to do it, I think it would also be a massive failure if the company is not able to qualify and help them right, true, especially if you're going through a change where you say, okay, we wanted this, now we want this, then you need to try your best to help people get there.
00:39:32.588 -->
00:39:32.789Yes.
00:39:33.561 -->
00:39:41.371I think there is something in our society right now going on where we are a little bit hesitant to acknowledge that that is needed at times.
00:39:41.371 -->
00:39:53.148But you need to be able to and comfortable going in sometimes and say something, do something that people don't at first appreciate or find comfortable, that they think this is not the direction I will go.
00:39:53.148 -->
00:39:55.728Can I not work from home three days a week?
00:39:55.728 -->
00:39:56.824I don't really like that.
00:39:56.824 -->
00:39:58.445Or do I need to change my seat?
00:39:58.445 -->
00:40:00.186Or do I need to prioritize this and not that?
00:40:00.186 -->
00:40:13.286People may not like it at first, but you need to do it anyway if that's the strategy, if that's what's needed, and you need to live with that, not being the most popular guy around for every day in the office.
00:40:13.900 -->
00:40:34.465Which you won't be if you do exactly that, Exactly because the problem is also if you don't take these calls, if you don't go, and then they tend to to build up, they tend to get bigger and and which is also why you need to deal with it very soon, very early, and then you can sort of get through it without it becoming a massive deal most of the time so.
00:40:34.626 -->
00:40:46.230So, actually based on your experience, that growing the talent across the entire organization starts with the managers being able to actually grow it and not sending them on programs.
00:40:46.230 -->
00:40:48.081That one conclusion you made right.
00:40:48.081 -->
00:41:05.867Another sounds like it's it's also about training a lot about equipping those managers with the skills to actually take the hard conversations, but also being authoritarian when needed, or more direct we could also call it and then at other times asking questions.
00:41:05.867 -->
00:41:07.606And how do you teach that?
00:41:07.606 -->
00:41:13.452Where do you start as HR in order to help the organization embrace that?
00:41:13.452 -->
00:41:15.079What kind of training would you recommend?
00:41:17.702 -->
00:41:28.876I think that the training for taking these tough conversations should start with being a bit curious about why is it really difficult and who is it that I'm protecting?
00:41:28.876 -->
00:41:36.644I read an interesting study from Lederne Svudog which was shown a few years back, where they asked employees what do you think is most important traits of your leader?
00:41:36.644 -->
00:41:39.266Employees, what do you think is most important traits of your leader?
00:41:39.266 -->
00:41:46.592And what came out at the very top was sort of credibility, honesty, being sort of straight with me in terms of how I'm doing.
00:41:46.592 -->
00:41:52.356And further down on the list there was the visionary coaching, mentoring, all these kinds, which are also important.
00:41:52.356 -->
00:42:05.148But I was still a little bit surprised, but also happy, to see that what really stood out at the very top was I want a leader who levels with me, who's candid with me, who tells me the truth.
00:42:05.148 -->
00:42:10.307Right, and if we relate that to every relationship we're in, we want people to be honest with us.
00:42:10.447 -->
00:42:21.592Yes, and and for the training, whether we like it or not whether we, like it may sting a little bit at first to be, to be told by your husband or your wife or a good friend that there's something that they don't appreciate, or if you do it differently.
00:42:21.592 -->
00:42:30.250But most of the time it creates the basis to improve, to become better, and at the end of the day, any employee wants to be better.
00:42:30.250 -->
00:42:40.786So I think if you teach the managers to understand who are you really protecting here, you're not doing any good for the employee by not saying what you want, what you you mean.
00:42:40.786 -->
00:42:46.081So is it really your own resistance, is your own sort of aversion towards conflict?
00:42:46.081 -->
00:42:47.304Then you need to think.
00:42:47.304 -->
00:42:48.106Think about that.
00:42:48.106 -->
00:42:51.324You need to to embrace it and see it as an opportunity to grow yourself.
00:42:51.324 -->
00:43:03.655And then, when it comes to the specific conversation, the number one thing is to be prepared, find out what is it you want to say, what are the situations where you think the employee is doing something that you don't like?
00:43:03.699 -->
00:43:07.630Maybe he has a tendency to show up late for basically all meetings?
00:43:07.630 -->
00:43:11.340Then you shouldn't say you're coming late for every meeting.
00:43:11.340 -->
00:43:17.806You should say yesterday and the day before you came late, and I think it was about 10 minutes late.
00:43:17.806 -->
00:43:21.644And then you should talk about, should talk about what was the behavior, what was the effect of it?
00:43:21.644 -->
00:43:23.284We could not get started.
00:43:23.284 -->
00:43:25.628We got delayed with our decision making.
00:43:25.628 -->
00:43:36.670The rest of the members of the team also started running out and in the door because they didn't realize the meeting actually started, and now we ended up wasting basically an hour of our time.
00:43:36.980 -->
00:43:41.452I would really appreciate if you could come on time or let me know if it's a problem.
00:43:41.452 -->
00:44:06.327Right, I think if you are very precise in whatever feedback you want to give in terms of what was the situation, what was the behavior and why was it good or bad and what would you like to see If you can just prepare those four simple steps, you can get through with most feedbacks in a good way you can get through with most feedbacks in a good way, and so does it all come down to the ability to give really great and candid feedback.
00:44:07.047 -->
00:44:13.193I think a lot of it is about giving good feedback combined with communicating clear expectations.
00:44:13.193 -->
00:44:19.177I think if I should give leaders two simple hacks, it would be be clear on what you want.
00:44:19.177 -->
00:44:27.041Make sure that you articulate it in a way so the person whether he's senior or junior, whatever really understands what is it that you would like?
00:44:27.041 -->
00:44:28.065What does good look like?
00:44:28.065 -->
00:44:29.347What are your expectations?
00:44:29.347 -->
00:44:31.233Spend some time on that.
00:44:31.233 -->
00:44:37.963Also, when you delegate tasks or projects and then give feedback, you know all the time this also good feedback.
00:44:37.963 -->
00:44:46.463You know the, the constructive or the appreciative things that you, that you really like, but also those small things where you feel that the person could really lean in here more.
00:44:46.463 -->
00:44:51.967Say more you or change a bit of things here and requested yourself, because that way it becomes natural.
00:44:52.047 -->
00:44:55.300It's not just the manager who sort of sits there and tells people what he thinks.
00:44:55.300 -->
00:45:03.945It's also the manager asking getting the feedback back to, to acknowledge that I'm also just here to learn and grow.
00:45:03.945 -->
00:45:05.130I'm also not perfect.
00:45:05.130 -->
00:45:10.010We are all here to do our best and I would really love to get your feedback so I can improve.
00:45:10.010 -->
00:45:11.818I'm gonna tell you what I think.
00:45:11.818 -->
00:45:15.447You're gonna tell me what you think and you're hopefully also gonna tell each other what you think.
00:45:16.090 -->
00:45:33.925And if we do that all the time and we make it clear what we want and what we appreciate, what we don't appreciate, magic can happen and this, this now, the link to talent and talent management is becoming more and more clear in in my mind and hopefully also the listeners minds are.
00:45:33.925 -->
00:45:47.666So the connection between how, how important it is to to grow your managers, first and foremost in order to grow your talent, but that's also because you link it to the fact that it needs to be internalized in the organization and not detached.
00:45:48.782 -->
00:45:53.847You really need to make sure what is again, coming back to the expectation what is it you want out of this program?
00:45:53.847 -->
00:45:56.047What should the leaders be better at when they come back?
00:45:56.047 -->
00:45:57.927And you should set those expectations clear.
00:45:57.927 -->
00:46:09.891And the more you can embed the processes, the tools, the concepts from the organization into the program so they actually teach and learn what they, what they have to use in the organization, the better.
00:46:09.891 -->
00:46:18.385And the only way you can do it is to blend if you have external facilitators to blend it with with great minds from the from the organization.
00:46:18.385 -->
00:46:31.869And coming back to the leader's role, you need to make sure that when that leader comes back, that his or her leader is ready to take them in ask them great, now you have been on this program, what did you learn?
00:46:32.039 -->
00:46:33.045How can we apply it?
00:46:33.045 -->
00:46:35.487How can we teach it to the rest of the team?
00:46:35.487 -->
00:46:39.831How can we ensure that we get the full benefit from this training?
00:46:39.831 -->
00:46:52.762And that's also why it's so important what they learn is in line with what we do, because if they go out on a great program, they come back with tools and and ways of doing things that are not super 100 aligned with how we do it.
00:46:52.762 -->
00:47:30.550Then it will just be confusion and you will not have that consistent culture, whereas if you have a program that is 100% aligned and in line with the way we do stuff, then you'll have someone who's even better at having tough conversation, who's better at setting expectations, who's better at giving feedback and is following the same principles, the same sort of process, as the way everyone else in the company does it, and that's basically how you build a culture by having behaviors that are consistent and aligned across the organization and I think you you've made it very, very clear how, what the connection between talent management and and great management is.
00:47:31.251 -->
00:47:34.704well, that's a that's a good way of of ending this, yes.
00:47:34.704 -->
00:47:44.168So thank you so much for stopping by today, Dion, and for anyone who would like to read any of your books, we'll make a link in the comment section.
00:47:44.168 -->
00:47:45.945So thank you so much.
00:47:45.945 -->
00:47:46.947Thank you very much.
00:47:46.947 -->
00:47:52.231You've been listening to the work in progress podcast on people and culture.
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00:48:06.731For more resources on people, culture and working in a modern world, please visit GetSessioncom and check out our articles, guides, webinars and more.
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00:48:08.114Thanks for listening.
